How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
uuhomeschooler2
This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!). But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting (MUCH MUCH SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted. If she can do it that easily (minus the handwriting), we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintances" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious now - so not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And, I think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they currently have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as possible. We never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!). But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting (MUCH MUCH SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted. If she can do it that easily (minus the handwriting), we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintances" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious now - so not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And, I think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they currently have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as possible. We never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
Tammy Curry
Have some chamomile and relax as the first step. Give the kids a hug and just feel their joy and passion about living and let it rub off on you. Then relax and take part in whatever they are doing at the moment. Have another cup of chamomile. Believe it or not they will learn to spell and learn to read, at their own pace. If they don't want to do any activity then so be it. I wouldn't make either of mine do something that they don't want to. For example, your son my enjoy yoga or karate instead if you are looking to help him with his coordination. Though at 12 with the upcoming growth spurts, not much may help with that. I know my daughter is uncoordinated at times but she has grown so much and is so tall now that I am seeing an improvement in it as she adjusts. She is 10 and 5 feet 3 inches.
If the kids enjoy a curriculum or book work have it available if they don't, then they don't. They apparently trust you and your husband, that is a major thing, so you need to trust them as well. As for all the activities you plan and are active in, maybe include them with what you do or prioritize what you have to do and delegate some of it so that you can physically be with your kids. Sleep late if you need it, my kids both sleep 12 hours per day, so whatever time they go to sleep I know it will be 12 hours later before they get up. You need to deal with your fears, unfortunately they are yours and not your children's and apparently not your husband's. Talk to him about them and see if you can figure out why you are afraid of these things. And don't compare what you are trying to do with what others are doing. You have chosen a route different from theirs and there is no way you can compare unschooling to any homeschooling method, it is a lifestyle and
not just a schooling style.
Give your kids the choices of continuing in their activities, why don't they have the option to quit soccer or ballet? If your daughter wants to read constantly let her, if she doesn't don't force her. If your son is struggling to read and asks for help, then help him, other wise be patient and he will learn in his own way at his own pace.
I will finish responding later on..my children are stirring and looking to start their adventure for the day...Seriously though, have a cup of tea and relax and just watch the day unfold!
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
________________________________
From: uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:18:27 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/ unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!) . But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting
(MUCH MUCH SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted.
If she can do it that easily (minus the handwriting) , we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and
I have to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintan ces" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious
now - so not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And,
I think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they
currently have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as
possible. We never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If the kids enjoy a curriculum or book work have it available if they don't, then they don't. They apparently trust you and your husband, that is a major thing, so you need to trust them as well. As for all the activities you plan and are active in, maybe include them with what you do or prioritize what you have to do and delegate some of it so that you can physically be with your kids. Sleep late if you need it, my kids both sleep 12 hours per day, so whatever time they go to sleep I know it will be 12 hours later before they get up. You need to deal with your fears, unfortunately they are yours and not your children's and apparently not your husband's. Talk to him about them and see if you can figure out why you are afraid of these things. And don't compare what you are trying to do with what others are doing. You have chosen a route different from theirs and there is no way you can compare unschooling to any homeschooling method, it is a lifestyle and
not just a schooling style.
Give your kids the choices of continuing in their activities, why don't they have the option to quit soccer or ballet? If your daughter wants to read constantly let her, if she doesn't don't force her. If your son is struggling to read and asks for help, then help him, other wise be patient and he will learn in his own way at his own pace.
I will finish responding later on..my children are stirring and looking to start their adventure for the day...Seriously though, have a cup of tea and relax and just watch the day unfold!
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
________________________________
From: uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:18:27 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/ unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!) . But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting
(MUCH MUCH SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted.
If she can do it that easily (minus the handwriting) , we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and
I have to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintan ces" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious
now - so not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And,
I think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they
currently have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as
possible. We never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
...but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money...
...She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have to tell her to put down her books constantly...
******There is a lot I would like to respond to, and might over the next couple days, but this is one thing that jumped out at me. You are sending EXTREMELY mixed messages. You are paying one child to read more and telling the other not to read so much.
How much reading is enough? How much reading is too much? That should be for your children to decide. If your daughter wants to devour books, then let her! If your son doesn't want to read, don't bribe him. Maybe you could read books he enjoys TO him instead. Enjoy them together.
There is no guarantee that your son will EVER enjoy books. I feel like paying him to read is really, REALLY heading in the wrong direction and setting him up to never enjoy books.
======================================================================
...She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have to tell her to put down her books constantly...
******There is a lot I would like to respond to, and might over the next couple days, but this is one thing that jumped out at me. You are sending EXTREMELY mixed messages. You are paying one child to read more and telling the other not to read so much.
How much reading is enough? How much reading is too much? That should be for your children to decide. If your daughter wants to devour books, then let her! If your son doesn't want to read, don't bribe him. Maybe you could read books he enjoys TO him instead. Enjoy them together.
There is no guarantee that your son will EVER enjoy books. I feel like paying him to read is really, REALLY heading in the wrong direction and setting him up to never enjoy books.
======================================================================
swissarmy_wife
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
******Ya know... I've heard of NVC and I've never read it, but judging from your post, it seems to be that you are putting WAY too much energy into this and having WAY to high expectations. Did you expect that conflicts will go away? If NVC says that you can exist conflict free (I don't know, I've never read it) then it's lying. It's not possible. Conflict is part of life, not a problem to be solved and eliminated.
Start focussing on the positives. You are spending too much time on perfecting your children. Listen to them. Play with them. Enjoy them.
The fact that you are "ASTOUNDED" that your children get compliments tells me that you really are not living in the present with them. You're thinking about how they should/could be better rather then who they are right now. You are probably focusing on all the perceived negativity, rather than just "being" with them. When my children get compliments, and they do sometimes, I am not astounded, I think my children are awesome!
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******Ya know... I've heard of NVC and I've never read it, but judging from your post, it seems to be that you are putting WAY too much energy into this and having WAY to high expectations. Did you expect that conflicts will go away? If NVC says that you can exist conflict free (I don't know, I've never read it) then it's lying. It's not possible. Conflict is part of life, not a problem to be solved and eliminated.
Start focussing on the positives. You are spending too much time on perfecting your children. Listen to them. Play with them. Enjoy them.
The fact that you are "ASTOUNDED" that your children get compliments tells me that you really are not living in the present with them. You're thinking about how they should/could be better rather then who they are right now. You are probably focusing on all the perceived negativity, rather than just "being" with them. When my children get compliments, and they do sometimes, I am not astounded, I think my children are awesome!
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swissarmy_wife
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops),
******why? do musicians make better people for some reason?
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ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc.
******why is ballet more important than soccer?
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My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later.
******Are you kidding me? You've told him ballet is more important then soccer because he has flat feet and is clumsy? If your daughter were a slow runner would you force her to miss ballet for soccer? Lots of children are clumsy. Lot's of children without flat feet are a little clumsy. I dare say it's a part of childhood. Stop spending so much time trying to fix him. Let him enjoy soccer. Let choose his own activities.
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It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice.
******this bothers me a lot. it is not compassionate to force your child to do something that embarrasses him. And its not compassionate to force your child to miss something he loves, to do something that is embarrassing to him. I don't care how nicely you communicate it to him. It's not nice.
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He LOVES the performances
******are you SURE?
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and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
******an agreement is when the two parties "agree". It doesn't sound like he agreed at all. It sounds like you talked him into staying.
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******why? do musicians make better people for some reason?
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ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc.
******why is ballet more important than soccer?
======================================================================
My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later.
******Are you kidding me? You've told him ballet is more important then soccer because he has flat feet and is clumsy? If your daughter were a slow runner would you force her to miss ballet for soccer? Lots of children are clumsy. Lot's of children without flat feet are a little clumsy. I dare say it's a part of childhood. Stop spending so much time trying to fix him. Let him enjoy soccer. Let choose his own activities.
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It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice.
******this bothers me a lot. it is not compassionate to force your child to do something that embarrasses him. And its not compassionate to force your child to miss something he loves, to do something that is embarrassing to him. I don't care how nicely you communicate it to him. It's not nice.
======================================================================
He LOVES the performances
******are you SURE?
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and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
******an agreement is when the two parties "agree". It doesn't sound like he agreed at all. It sounds like you talked him into staying.
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Jeff Sabo
Hi there -
I've read your post as well as the replies you've received already. Let me suggest just a couple of things for you and your family.
First, I think you need to start by doing some basic research on unschooling, both as an educational choice and as a lifestyle choice. From the tone of your note and what you're struggling with, I think you're missing some of the basic understandings about what unschooling is all about. The links list on our group page is very comprehensive; start with what sings to you, but I would strongly suggest "Parenting a Free Child" by Rue Kream, as well as some foundational materials by Gatto, Sandra Dodd, Joyce Fetterol, etc. Read, digest, ask specific questions, and then regroup.
Second, be sure you, your husband, and your kids can handle this type of change. Simply put, unschooling as an educational choice is very difficult (especially on the kids) if you cannot break away from some preconceived/traditional parenting and living paradigms (like choice, passion, expectations, consent, etc.) As a lifestyle choice, it is even more so. I cannot begin to express how challenging this journey will be if you are not willing/able to make some significant changes in response to what you learn; foremost among these changes is the ability to listen to your heart as well as your mind, and to trust in unschooling as the best thing for your family and yourself. If you're not willing to go there, don't go there!
Finally, of course you can do this. Learn, ask questions, let go, trust, relax. But learn some before you try to committ to a change of this magnitude; "choosing" unschooling is a choice not be taken lightly.
Best wishes - -
J
I've read your post as well as the replies you've received already. Let me suggest just a couple of things for you and your family.
First, I think you need to start by doing some basic research on unschooling, both as an educational choice and as a lifestyle choice. From the tone of your note and what you're struggling with, I think you're missing some of the basic understandings about what unschooling is all about. The links list on our group page is very comprehensive; start with what sings to you, but I would strongly suggest "Parenting a Free Child" by Rue Kream, as well as some foundational materials by Gatto, Sandra Dodd, Joyce Fetterol, etc. Read, digest, ask specific questions, and then regroup.
Second, be sure you, your husband, and your kids can handle this type of change. Simply put, unschooling as an educational choice is very difficult (especially on the kids) if you cannot break away from some preconceived/traditional parenting and living paradigms (like choice, passion, expectations, consent, etc.) As a lifestyle choice, it is even more so. I cannot begin to express how challenging this journey will be if you are not willing/able to make some significant changes in response to what you learn; foremost among these changes is the ability to listen to your heart as well as your mind, and to trust in unschooling as the best thing for your family and yourself. If you're not willing to go there, don't go there!
Finally, of course you can do this. Learn, ask questions, let go, trust, relax. But learn some before you try to committ to a change of this magnitude; "choosing" unschooling is a choice not be taken lightly.
Best wishes - -
J
--- On Mon, 4/13/09, uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...> wrote:
From: uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 2:18 AM
This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/ unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!) . But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting (MUCH MUCH
SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted. If she can do it that
easily (minus the handwriting) , we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have
to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintan ces" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious now - so
not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And, I
think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they currently
have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as possible. We
never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tammy Curry
Well, DD has gone back to bed, she wasn't feeling well and DS is enjoying Dora the Explorer and building a castle for mommy but I am not allowed to see it until he is done.
use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often
do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent
- and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to
use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years
ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.<<<
Living in the moment with yours kids, being there with them, trusting them to know what they need is unschooling. It sounds like you spend a lot of time on "issues". How many issues could an 11 yr old and a 12 yr old have? Or are they your own issues that you need to work through without putting them on the kids.
much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or
ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two
or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since
December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a
week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway,
and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to
call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find
non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)<<<
Your fears, your issues. Not your kids. So you need to find a way to work through those your problems. Your problems are not theirs and passing them on is not helpful for them. What would happen that is so terrible if you just gave them choices? They might find another interest to pursue? Earning tips? Are they working at such young ages? I would have asked my kids if they wanted to go to fiddle class and not made them. This is not unschooling or even relaxed in anyway. Why such a focus on non-violent communication, is there a family history of violence? If so, I would recommend counseling. Coercion is not unschooling.
it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer),
etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our
son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained
that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It
was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious
and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES
the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would
quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and
understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate
communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he
really looks forward to the performance.<<<
Let your daughter continue in ballet if she wants to, but make sure to give her other choices. Music lessons aren't a requirement of growing up, so unless they really want to play an instrument give them other choices, including doing nothing if that is what floats their boat. Anything that causes a child embarrassment is not an option. That is harmful to their self esteem and their trust in you. Lack of coordination will not necessarily be changed by ballet or any other activity. However, unconditional love for who the child is and how they are right now is most important. "Compassionate communication" translation by my view point, "Honey, we know what's best for you and you need to do this even though we understand it makes you uncomfortable, we are your parents and we know best." UUmmmm..nope, coercion coated in sugar. My daughter has stated to me openly that I do not always truly know what is in her heart, so we sit down or go grab some Chinese food
and we talk about it, which means I sit and listen and she talks. I acknowledge that I was wrong, misinformed and ask her how she feels we should handle something. I will present some ideas to help her, sometimes they help, sometimes they don't. I take my que's from her. Sometimes she just needs to express what she is feeling or thinking at the moment. I make sure that I am able to give her my full attention, which will mean that DS, only 4 yrs old, will be with DH, which just thrills him to death to get that special one on one with DH, a rare treat for both of my kids since he works a lot of hours and night shift. He does this so that I don't have to go back to work. DD isn't quite comfortable talking to DH about certain topics though, they are working on their relationship. We are all going through changes and shifts in our thoughts, the grown ups more than the kids as we have had to change our outlook on parenting and life in general.
also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and
insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.<<<
Why must you insist and get their cooperation? What other choices are available to them? Does someone stand over you and make you brush your teeth and take a bath? Are they diabetic? Why do they have to eat certain vegetables, is there a medical issue that involves a special diet?
undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I
spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying,
phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning
house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I
wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving
their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the
computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful
science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months).
When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one
show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and
we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all
I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night<<<
It is really hard to know exactly what goes on in any house hold. HHhmmm..all those things can be done spread out over time. Make a note to yourslef that on this day you will do this and on that day you will do that. Again, your issues not the kids. HHmmm..everday chores, well it is a matter of priotizing. And my kids come first everyday. I have had to get over having a better homes and garden clean kind of house. My husband is cool with the lived in look and he still pitches in to help out when I feel overwhelmed. My issue not my kids. If my kids want to play in the woods, I am right there with them. If they want to read then I am right there with them, whether it is reading out loud to the 4 yr old, listening to the 10 yr old read out loud, or we are all just reading our own books. We have games we can all play together on the computers or everyone spreads out and plays their own games. My daughter is an artist so sketching, drawing, painting, and
other media are a part of her and her shoulder bag that goes every where with her. I have a science degree and took 5 years of Spanish in school and 4 of French. So what? We live in a bilingual neighborhood and my kids are more proficient in Spanish now than I have ever been. My daughter wants to study Japanese so she can go to Japan. So we are pulling resources together for that. Why are there limits on TV? What happened when you were growing up is your problem, not your kids. I was afraid of the same thing, however I learned I had to let go. It isn't easy, however, sitting with my daughter when she is engrossed her favorite genre pulls me into her world and while I am not a fan I have learned to enjoy the time with her and watching her enthusiasm. We actually went ahead and ran an s-video cable from the kids' computer to the television in the living room so that they could watch their shows on a full size screen. With the first taste of freedom the
kids didn't do anything but watch. Now, they know that it isn't going to be taken away from them. They get up and go play with friends, ride bikes, do something else, when they choose to. I trusted them and they have in turn begun to trust me. There are days when we all just veg and watch movies and tv shows. A nice break from everything else. The bills will still be there, the house will still need to be cleaned and all the other chores as well. Do my kids pitch in and help with the house? Sometimes, I will ask them to help but will accept a no, at least now I will. Most of the time the 10 yr old will help out because it is time together, actually there are things she loves to do that I can't stand, so it works out well. The 4 yr old will help out with anything that involves getting wet and he happens to like the smell of Windex for some reason, so often the house smells like that if he has been helping to clean. If I am too overwhelmed I pull out the
big gun, DH, he is fast and thorough, not in the way I would be but I have had to learn to accept that not everyone does things the way I do and that I need to be grateful for the help.
<<<At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a
great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly
about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural
stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you
name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and
have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They
can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and
independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off
on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet,
I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid
to be. What do I do?<<<
Are these games that they chose to play and asked you to be a part of? Are these topics that they choose or are they ones that you feel is necessary for them to discuss? Responsibility and independance take time to develop, it almost seems as though you are missing the point of youth and fashioning them into young adults when they are really still just children. You need to relax and just enjoy life with your children. It is a process to go through. I have sat for months on this group and a few others, just gleaning information. I have read books and websites that were recommended by this group and others. My husband and I still have a long way to go but the relaxed feeling we have acquired by learning to trust our children and building better relationships with them have been key. My husband will admit he has further to go than I do, but I have an advantage I am the one with them full time. I am grateful that he has been my partner in this and he has
done what he can to ensure that I can stay home and not have to go back into the work force. I am grateful that my brother in law ended up having to live with us and returned to work a couple of months ago, while he is having trouble adjusting to our way of life he is finally decided that he needs to learn more about it as well so that there is less conflict. I have found someone outside of our home that I can talk, not a counselor, but someone I can work on my problem solving skills with and vent when I need to. A counselor would help tremendously but we do not have the insurance to cover that right now, so I am finding alternative ways to deal with my own issues and not making the my children's issues. My husband and I also have learned to communicate better about everything and have re-formed our partnership in life. It isn't easy and requires a lot of re-thinking to unschool. I think I have learned quite a bit or at least been given food for thought
from many members of this group and a few other discussion lists. But the rewards of making those changes are too many to count. The journey to find myself that I felt I needed lead me right to where I wanted/needed to be, with my children and my husband. I know I can do and be so many things, but my children especially need me right now, there is time down the road to do all those other things.
Now that I have taken forever to write this, various breaks to check on the progress of the castle, I am done for now and will be going to watch the dragon emerge and walk all over the living room floor demolishing the work art, so that it can begin again.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
________________________________
From: uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:18:27 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/ unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!) . But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting
(MUCH MUCH SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted.
If she can do it that easily (minus the handwriting) , we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and
I have to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintan ces" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious
now - so not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And,
I think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they
currently have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as
possible. We never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom
use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often
do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent
- and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to
use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years
ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.<<<
Living in the moment with yours kids, being there with them, trusting them to know what they need is unschooling. It sounds like you spend a lot of time on "issues". How many issues could an 11 yr old and a 12 yr old have? Or are they your own issues that you need to work through without putting them on the kids.
>>>My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes forour children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very
much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or
ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two
or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since
December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a
week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway,
and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to
call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find
non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)<<<
Your fears, your issues. Not your kids. So you need to find a way to work through those your problems. Your problems are not theirs and passing them on is not helpful for them. What would happen that is so terrible if you just gave them choices? They might find another interest to pursue? Earning tips? Are they working at such young ages? I would have asked my kids if they wanted to go to fiddle class and not made them. This is not unschooling or even relaxed in anyway. Why such a focus on non-violent communication, is there a family history of violence? If so, I would recommend counseling. Coercion is not unschooling.
>>>My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki andfiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants
it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer),
etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our
son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained
that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It
was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious
and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES
the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would
quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and
understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate
communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he
really looks forward to the performance.<<<
Let your daughter continue in ballet if she wants to, but make sure to give her other choices. Music lessons aren't a requirement of growing up, so unless they really want to play an instrument give them other choices, including doing nothing if that is what floats their boat. Anything that causes a child embarrassment is not an option. That is harmful to their self esteem and their trust in you. Lack of coordination will not necessarily be changed by ballet or any other activity. However, unconditional love for who the child is and how they are right now is most important. "Compassionate communication" translation by my view point, "Honey, we know what's best for you and you need to do this even though we understand it makes you uncomfortable, we are your parents and we know best." UUmmmm..nope, coercion coated in sugar. My daughter has stated to me openly that I do not always truly know what is in her heart, so we sit down or go grab some Chinese food
and we talk about it, which means I sit and listen and she talks. I acknowledge that I was wrong, misinformed and ask her how she feels we should handle something. I will present some ideas to help her, sometimes they help, sometimes they don't. I take my que's from her. Sometimes she just needs to express what she is feeling or thinking at the moment. I make sure that I am able to give her my full attention, which will mean that DS, only 4 yrs old, will be with DH, which just thrills him to death to get that special one on one with DH, a rare treat for both of my kids since he works a lot of hours and night shift. He does this so that I don't have to go back to work. DD isn't quite comfortable talking to DH about certain topics though, they are working on their relationship. We are all going through changes and shifts in our thoughts, the grown ups more than the kids as we have had to change our outlook on parenting and life in general.
>>>I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but Ithoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I
also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and
insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.<<<
Why must you insist and get their cooperation? What other choices are available to them? Does someone stand over you and make you brush your teeth and take a bath? Are they diabetic? Why do they have to eat certain vegetables, is there a medical issue that involves a special diet?
>>>Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don'treally get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly
undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I
spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying,
phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning
house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I
wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving
their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the
computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful
science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months).
When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one
show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and
we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all
I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night<<<
It is really hard to know exactly what goes on in any house hold. HHhmmm..all those things can be done spread out over time. Make a note to yourslef that on this day you will do this and on that day you will do that. Again, your issues not the kids. HHmmm..everday chores, well it is a matter of priotizing. And my kids come first everyday. I have had to get over having a better homes and garden clean kind of house. My husband is cool with the lived in look and he still pitches in to help out when I feel overwhelmed. My issue not my kids. If my kids want to play in the woods, I am right there with them. If they want to read then I am right there with them, whether it is reading out loud to the 4 yr old, listening to the 10 yr old read out loud, or we are all just reading our own books. We have games we can all play together on the computers or everyone spreads out and plays their own games. My daughter is an artist so sketching, drawing, painting, and
other media are a part of her and her shoulder bag that goes every where with her. I have a science degree and took 5 years of Spanish in school and 4 of French. So what? We live in a bilingual neighborhood and my kids are more proficient in Spanish now than I have ever been. My daughter wants to study Japanese so she can go to Japan. So we are pulling resources together for that. Why are there limits on TV? What happened when you were growing up is your problem, not your kids. I was afraid of the same thing, however I learned I had to let go. It isn't easy, however, sitting with my daughter when she is engrossed her favorite genre pulls me into her world and while I am not a fan I have learned to enjoy the time with her and watching her enthusiasm. We actually went ahead and ran an s-video cable from the kids' computer to the television in the living room so that they could watch their shows on a full size screen. With the first taste of freedom the
kids didn't do anything but watch. Now, they know that it isn't going to be taken away from them. They get up and go play with friends, ride bikes, do something else, when they choose to. I trusted them and they have in turn begun to trust me. There are days when we all just veg and watch movies and tv shows. A nice break from everything else. The bills will still be there, the house will still need to be cleaned and all the other chores as well. Do my kids pitch in and help with the house? Sometimes, I will ask them to help but will accept a no, at least now I will. Most of the time the 10 yr old will help out because it is time together, actually there are things she loves to do that I can't stand, so it works out well. The 4 yr old will help out with anything that involves getting wet and he happens to like the smell of Windex for some reason, so often the house smells like that if he has been helping to clean. If I am too overwhelmed I pull out the
big gun, DH, he is fast and thorough, not in the way I would be but I have had to learn to accept that not everyone does things the way I do and that I need to be grateful for the help.
<<<At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a
great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly
about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural
stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you
name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and
have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They
can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and
independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off
on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet,
I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid
to be. What do I do?<<<
Are these games that they chose to play and asked you to be a part of? Are these topics that they choose or are they ones that you feel is necessary for them to discuss? Responsibility and independance take time to develop, it almost seems as though you are missing the point of youth and fashioning them into young adults when they are really still just children. You need to relax and just enjoy life with your children. It is a process to go through. I have sat for months on this group and a few others, just gleaning information. I have read books and websites that were recommended by this group and others. My husband and I still have a long way to go but the relaxed feeling we have acquired by learning to trust our children and building better relationships with them have been key. My husband will admit he has further to go than I do, but I have an advantage I am the one with them full time. I am grateful that he has been my partner in this and he has
done what he can to ensure that I can stay home and not have to go back into the work force. I am grateful that my brother in law ended up having to live with us and returned to work a couple of months ago, while he is having trouble adjusting to our way of life he is finally decided that he needs to learn more about it as well so that there is less conflict. I have found someone outside of our home that I can talk, not a counselor, but someone I can work on my problem solving skills with and vent when I need to. A counselor would help tremendously but we do not have the insurance to cover that right now, so I am finding alternative ways to deal with my own issues and not making the my children's issues. My husband and I also have learned to communicate better about everything and have re-formed our partnership in life. It isn't easy and requires a lot of re-thinking to unschool. I think I have learned quite a bit or at least been given food for thought
from many members of this group and a few other discussion lists. But the rewards of making those changes are too many to count. The journey to find myself that I felt I needed lead me right to where I wanted/needed to be, with my children and my husband. I know I can do and be so many things, but my children especially need me right now, there is time down the road to do all those other things.
Now that I have taken forever to write this, various breaks to check on the progress of the castle, I am done for now and will be going to watch the dragon emerge and walk all over the living room floor demolishing the work art, so that it can begin again.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
________________________________
From: uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:18:27 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/ unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!) . But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting
(MUCH MUCH SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted.
If she can do it that easily (minus the handwriting) , we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and
I have to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintan ces" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious
now - so not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And,
I think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they
currently have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as
possible. We never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Coffee Goddess
This brings to mind what soured my mouth for the whole "non-violent communication" thing...I think in theory it might be based on good ideals, not sure, but the only family I knew who did it sounds like your family....they claimed to be unschoolers, and yet completely controlled their children through this "nicey-nicey" speak--"It makes me uncomfortable when you watch tv, so we will not be watching it, sweetie..." and "Your eating sugar makes me feel badly, so I need you not to do it..."--it was so horribly co-dependent and fake in its sing-songy syrupy sweetness--and the children would agree to mom and dad's face, and then rebel behind their backs. Mom and dad also didn't understand why OTHER people also couldn't fight their battles for them--"My children need to not watch television, and it makes me uncomfortable when we are at your house and your tv is on, so I need for you to turn your TV off when we arrive"--UH, I don't *think* so...
I may have more to say about the rest of your post later, but just wanted to stress that "Non-violent communication" does NOT mean you are really communicating with your kids. How about leave the NVC on the sidelines and actually TALK and LISTEN to what your kids want for themselves? That would be truly the most non-violent way to communicate....
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I may have more to say about the rest of your post later, but just wanted to stress that "Non-violent communication" does NOT mean you are really communicating with your kids. How about leave the NVC on the sidelines and actually TALK and LISTEN to what your kids want for themselves? That would be truly the most non-violent way to communicate....
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:08 AM, The Coffee Goddess wrote:
just couched in "I" and "feeling" language. "Gaining cooperation"
sounds like "I will talk you out of what you want to do, so you'll do
what I want you to do. But I'll sound nicer about it." It is
particularly insidious when parents do this to kids, because the
parents keep the power in the relationship, but make it seem like they
are living consensually.
That children must attend lessons because parents think it's the right
thing for them; being paid to read Magic Treehouse books; and
insistence on certain foods, habits, and limiting sugar (to name a few
issues in the original post) have already been identified as fear-
based by both the op and those responding.
Unschooling can't co-exist with fear. It's as simple as that.
Unschooling embraces making choices, not insisting on compliance,
however sweetly that might be presented. Here's a good page on choices:
http://sandradodd.com/choice
It's a good place to start to begin to understand unschooling, along
with this one, from Pam S.:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
Robin B.
> This brings to mind what soured my mouth for the whole "non-violentNVC, in this case, seems to me to be a new way to manipulate people,
> communication" thing...I think in theory it might be based on good
> ideals, not sure, but the only family I knew who did it sounds like
> your family....they claimed to be unschoolers, and yet completely
> controlled their children through this "nicey-nicey" speak--"It
> makes me uncomfortable when you watch tv, so we will not be watching
> it, sweetie..." and "Your eating sugar makes me feel badly, so I
> need you not to do it..."--it was so horribly co-dependent and fake
> in its sing-songy syrupy sweetness--and the children would agree to
> mom and dad's face, and then rebel behind their backs.
just couched in "I" and "feeling" language. "Gaining cooperation"
sounds like "I will talk you out of what you want to do, so you'll do
what I want you to do. But I'll sound nicer about it." It is
particularly insidious when parents do this to kids, because the
parents keep the power in the relationship, but make it seem like they
are living consensually.
That children must attend lessons because parents think it's the right
thing for them; being paid to read Magic Treehouse books; and
insistence on certain foods, habits, and limiting sugar (to name a few
issues in the original post) have already been identified as fear-
based by both the op and those responding.
Unschooling can't co-exist with fear. It's as simple as that.
Unschooling embraces making choices, not insisting on compliance,
however sweetly that might be presented. Here's a good page on choices:
http://sandradodd.com/choice
It's a good place to start to begin to understand unschooling, along
with this one, from Pam S.:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
Robin B.
carenkh
It sounds as though you have some preconceived beliefs:
1) Your children must learn certain things in order to be successful - and
2) Your children will not learn those things without being coerced or manipulated into doing so.
Inside those two assumptions are other things, which I'll leave for now, but wanted to point out one: "Successful" in #1 would be success as defined by your or your husband, or society, or school.
It would be really, really helpful in your unschooling journey to drop both beliefs. Lots of unschooling parents drop the second belief, or as much as they're able - but then they get frustrated because their child doesn't seem to be learning X, Y, or Z by the time the parents think they should.
Instead of having a List of Unusual Size that YOU need your kids to learn, can you trust that THEY will learn EXACTLY what they need to live the lives they desire? And as their needs change, they'll learn different things? 'Cause that's what happens. As they need it, they learn it - without coercion, without manipulation, without curriculum or classes.
There is NO list of things a person must learn to be successful. Or, maybe it's more like this: in each community, if a person truly MUST learn something to be successful, that thing will be so pervasive that *no one* can escape learning it.
That's what I came to believe - if something is so all-fired important that a human can't possibly exist in society without learning it, the desire to learn it will be there soon enough. And allowing a person to learn it in their own time, in their own way, is the most effective way to make it stick - that's been proven time and again.
That was so freeing - I completely dropped my agenda, my need to have my kids learn *anything at all* at that point - timetable or no, and that's when our unschooling lives really took off.
Caren
1) Your children must learn certain things in order to be successful - and
2) Your children will not learn those things without being coerced or manipulated into doing so.
Inside those two assumptions are other things, which I'll leave for now, but wanted to point out one: "Successful" in #1 would be success as defined by your or your husband, or society, or school.
It would be really, really helpful in your unschooling journey to drop both beliefs. Lots of unschooling parents drop the second belief, or as much as they're able - but then they get frustrated because their child doesn't seem to be learning X, Y, or Z by the time the parents think they should.
Instead of having a List of Unusual Size that YOU need your kids to learn, can you trust that THEY will learn EXACTLY what they need to live the lives they desire? And as their needs change, they'll learn different things? 'Cause that's what happens. As they need it, they learn it - without coercion, without manipulation, without curriculum or classes.
There is NO list of things a person must learn to be successful. Or, maybe it's more like this: in each community, if a person truly MUST learn something to be successful, that thing will be so pervasive that *no one* can escape learning it.
That's what I came to believe - if something is so all-fired important that a human can't possibly exist in society without learning it, the desire to learn it will be there soon enough. And allowing a person to learn it in their own time, in their own way, is the most effective way to make it stick - that's been proven time and again.
That was so freeing - I completely dropped my agenda, my need to have my kids learn *anything at all* at that point - timetable or no, and that's when our unschooling lives really took off.
Caren
carenkh
I just read this beautiful, thoughtful blog post by Gillian and thought it would be helpful to share it here:
http://thewonderfulhappens.blogspot.com/2009/04/reading-in-their-own-time.html
Caren
http://thewonderfulhappens.blogspot.com/2009/04/reading-in-their-own-time.html
Caren
uuhomeschooler2
Tammy -
I'm laughing at the tea. That is what I do on a lot of days - though I think I need to buy some more chamomile! We have moved so much and the kids lives have been disrupted so much that I get overwhelmed just finding everyday things that other people take for granted - doctors, church, activities, friends, opportunities, special places we like to go, setting up bills, banks, etc. Then you have to re-evaluate all your opportunities and figure out which ones are working and which ones aren't. Soccer has been a problem because the coaches weren't good. So, after 3 seasons we just found the team that is working for us.
As far as why not having a choice - I guess because I see that as they get more and more competent, they enjoy things more. Very few people learn an instrument unless they are constantly exposed by good people or their parents made them do it - though I know there are exceptions. I'd love to hear from those exceptions - I just know that I was very musical - but ended up letting life get in the way and did not pursue something I was good at. My husband was given a choice at 5 years old to continue piano or play with his dogs. You know what he chose! And, he is not musical now because he is so self conscious he can't just let it flow. And, I seem to be so busy I never practice or play much. Though, I can see how that would be the biggest incentive for the kids - to just have me doing it in front of them. But, I have always played the role of helping them with their music and seen them surpass me. So, it's hard to move out of that role - one-on-one required by the Suzuki instructor that we finally dropped because my son was so unhappy with her brutal nitpicking that he couldn't even play for the lesson. That's when we quit. We go to music festivals and things were they are exposed to jamming and lessons - but until now, they have not wanted to participate. I'm not sure, but I think that may be changing - but I think it is because they are much more competent and feel more comfortable and confident.
I know that most of the people on this list would say don't force it - and that is what I need help with. I really would like to hear from those who can show me that it can work without the pushing - and give me examples.
I also know that others would say that maybe our kids just won't be musical and that would be okay - but honestly, I guess that isn't okay with me. My husband and I have always felt it was important to develop their brains and give them chances for scholarships (if they want to go to college) or simply pleasure in their future relationships.
So, I guess I need TONS of re-schooling my brain if I'm to give up this hope for my children! I'm willing to listen - I just know it will be VERY hard. And, this has been a topic of discussion with my children. They know it is a curious distinction from what we hope for them - which is for them to pursue what they want to - not what we want for them. And, they have pointed that out.
So, I'm laughing at my own opposition! Help? :)
I'm laughing at the tea. That is what I do on a lot of days - though I think I need to buy some more chamomile! We have moved so much and the kids lives have been disrupted so much that I get overwhelmed just finding everyday things that other people take for granted - doctors, church, activities, friends, opportunities, special places we like to go, setting up bills, banks, etc. Then you have to re-evaluate all your opportunities and figure out which ones are working and which ones aren't. Soccer has been a problem because the coaches weren't good. So, after 3 seasons we just found the team that is working for us.
As far as why not having a choice - I guess because I see that as they get more and more competent, they enjoy things more. Very few people learn an instrument unless they are constantly exposed by good people or their parents made them do it - though I know there are exceptions. I'd love to hear from those exceptions - I just know that I was very musical - but ended up letting life get in the way and did not pursue something I was good at. My husband was given a choice at 5 years old to continue piano or play with his dogs. You know what he chose! And, he is not musical now because he is so self conscious he can't just let it flow. And, I seem to be so busy I never practice or play much. Though, I can see how that would be the biggest incentive for the kids - to just have me doing it in front of them. But, I have always played the role of helping them with their music and seen them surpass me. So, it's hard to move out of that role - one-on-one required by the Suzuki instructor that we finally dropped because my son was so unhappy with her brutal nitpicking that he couldn't even play for the lesson. That's when we quit. We go to music festivals and things were they are exposed to jamming and lessons - but until now, they have not wanted to participate. I'm not sure, but I think that may be changing - but I think it is because they are much more competent and feel more comfortable and confident.
I know that most of the people on this list would say don't force it - and that is what I need help with. I really would like to hear from those who can show me that it can work without the pushing - and give me examples.
I also know that others would say that maybe our kids just won't be musical and that would be okay - but honestly, I guess that isn't okay with me. My husband and I have always felt it was important to develop their brains and give them chances for scholarships (if they want to go to college) or simply pleasure in their future relationships.
So, I guess I need TONS of re-schooling my brain if I'm to give up this hope for my children! I'm willing to listen - I just know it will be VERY hard. And, this has been a topic of discussion with my children. They know it is a curious distinction from what we hope for them - which is for them to pursue what they want to - not what we want for them. And, they have pointed that out.
So, I'm laughing at my own opposition! Help? :)
--- In [email protected], Tammy Curry <mamabeart00@...> wrote:
>
> Have some chamomile and relax as the first step. Give the kids a hug and just feel their joy and passion about living and let it rub off on you. Then relax and take part in whatever they are doing at the moment. Have another cup of chamomile. Believe it or not they will learn to spell and learn to read, at their own pace. If they don't want to do any activity then so be it. I wouldn't make either of mine do something that they don't want to. For example, your son my enjoy yoga or karate instead if you are looking to help him with his coordination. Though at 12 with the upcoming growth spurts, not much may help with that. I know my daughter is uncoordinated at times but she has grown so much and is so tall now that I am seeing an improvement in it as she adjusts. She is 10 and 5 feet 3 inches.
>
> If the kids enjoy a curriculum or book work have it available if they don't, then they don't. They apparently trust you and your husband, that is a major thing, so you need to trust them as well. As for all the activities you plan and are active in, maybe include them with what you do or prioritize what you have to do and delegate some of it so that you can physically be with your kids. Sleep late if you need it, my kids both sleep 12 hours per day, so whatever time they go to sleep I know it will be 12 hours later before they get up. You need to deal with your fears, unfortunately they are yours and not your children's and apparently not your husband's. Talk to him about them and see if you can figure out why you are afraid of these things. And don't compare what you are trying to do with what others are doing. You have chosen a route different from theirs and there is no way you can compare unschooling to any homeschooling method, it is a lifestyle and
> not just a schooling style.
>
> Give your kids the choices of continuing in their activities, why don't they have the option to quit soccer or ballet? If your daughter wants to read constantly let her, if she doesn't don't force her. If your son is struggling to read and asks for help, then help him, other wise be patient and he will learn in his own way at his own pace.
>
> I will finish responding later on..my children are stirring and looking to start their adventure for the day...Seriously though, have a cup of tea and relax and just watch the day unfold!
>
>
> Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
> http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
> http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
>
> "If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
>
> Rachel Carson
>
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "uuhomeschooler2" <publicprofile34@...> wrote:
If you like to read, I really recommend Naomi Aldort's Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves. One of the concepts she talks about is separating your own issues from your kids. That's a really important concept to take to heart for unschooling to work for you - your kids aren't you and won't ever have the life you have had. No matter what, their lives will be different from yours.
It might help you to think about what you mean by "better existance". Do you mean more success? More friends? Better choices? More happiness? What deep down values do you express with the idea of "a better existance?" Do your children share those values? Are you sure? How can you know for sure? This is part of the deep, personal work of unschooling - digging into our own assumptions and hopes, as well as fears to see what we're inadvertently imposing on our kids.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had.********************************
If you like to read, I really recommend Naomi Aldort's Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves. One of the concepts she talks about is separating your own issues from your kids. That's a really important concept to take to heart for unschooling to work for you - your kids aren't you and won't ever have the life you have had. No matter what, their lives will be different from yours.
It might help you to think about what you mean by "better existance". Do you mean more success? More friends? Better choices? More happiness? What deep down values do you express with the idea of "a better existance?" Do your children share those values? Are you sure? How can you know for sure? This is part of the deep, personal work of unschooling - digging into our own assumptions and hopes, as well as fears to see what we're inadvertently imposing on our kids.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
uuhomeschooler2
LOL
Well - I knew someone would point the dichotomy of that approach! But, really, it's not what it sounds like. My daughter needed encouragement at the same age, and we did similar with her. And, in fact, she gets paid, too. If she reads a difficult book at the same time my son is reading, she gets equal pay! We don't do allowance, so it is kind of a challenge for them both. But, I just asked him about it in response to this post. He said that he was embarrassed by lots of people knowing he couldn't read, so that is why he wanted to do it, but that if I quit paying him, it was 50/50 that he would quit reading, which is what I figured. I did it because he wanted it, not because I wanted it before he did. But, now with your call of bribery, I guess I need to figure out if that is what it is and if it matters. So, I'm open to hear about that one. I also just now asked him if he likes reading, and he said, "Sort of. Yes, I guess." He feels a sense of pride when he finishes a book and is ready for the next in the series. And, he wants to learn about all the fishing stuff in our magazine, but I can't read to him all the time! So, he knows it will help him.
But, in the strictest, non-violent communication method, I can definitely see how this can also be considered negative. When he didn't get the money - at first - he would get upset. So, I told him if he got upset, then I wasn't going to do it - no different than games we play. Long ago, he would get uptight if he lost a board game. So, I told him that is part of the game - win or lose. If he didn't want to lose and couldn't be happy either way, then I didn't like playing the games because I didn't have fun when he pouted or had a fit and I wouldn't play. So, he got over it pretty quick and now there is seldom an issue when we play competitive things - even soccer and such.
I guess you could call this bribery, but we don't really feel it is coercion. He was doing the reading, just so slowly that it was painful. My attempts to help him understand "how" to get faster were not being followed. So, I told him if he really wanted to get faster and would try it my way, and could finish the page in a certain amount of time - very close to what he was doing, then I'd give him a quarter. He liked that very much and it has really improved his speed. But, I do see how it can be considered bribery. We really thought of it as a challenge. So, I'm not sure if you would consider that detrimental. He likes it. And, I've told him it will get harder to earn the money and will eventually fade out.
Hmmm. So, would most unschoolers consider this a negative? We really never do this in any other part of our lives. I just knew he was getting embarrassed by not reading a few times, so I thought it would help him to have incentive - and it seems to work. But, I do agree that the brain develops at its own pace and we have never tried to make him feel badly - we have just said it is his choice and his bodies timeline when he reads and if he doesn't do it now, then he needs to not worry about what others think. But, what is funny is that I KNOW he can read and he actually tries hard not to! Or at least, he use to. I think it is neck and neck now. He will say "tiny" when he sees the world "little" or guess at other words. He just is having trouble focusing on the little tiny things instead of the big picture - which I know is developmental and will resolve itself. But, I'm not worried about him and don't think he thinks I am. I know he will read well when he is ready.
As for my daughter - I have to tell her to put books down when I want her to sleep and it is VERY late, or when we are waiting on her to eat dinner, or when we are trying to do dishes and she is still reading after several requests to help. She spends plenty of time reading, and I encourage it. I just need to do other things sometimes. And, I usually tell her that "I'm glad you are enjoying your book, and I want you to read, I just need some help right now."
Anyway - I'm open and I will be glad to hear comments. Just please remember that I would like to be encouraged and see others thoughts, not judgements. I'd appreciate an open discussion. Thanks!
-- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...> wrote:
Well - I knew someone would point the dichotomy of that approach! But, really, it's not what it sounds like. My daughter needed encouragement at the same age, and we did similar with her. And, in fact, she gets paid, too. If she reads a difficult book at the same time my son is reading, she gets equal pay! We don't do allowance, so it is kind of a challenge for them both. But, I just asked him about it in response to this post. He said that he was embarrassed by lots of people knowing he couldn't read, so that is why he wanted to do it, but that if I quit paying him, it was 50/50 that he would quit reading, which is what I figured. I did it because he wanted it, not because I wanted it before he did. But, now with your call of bribery, I guess I need to figure out if that is what it is and if it matters. So, I'm open to hear about that one. I also just now asked him if he likes reading, and he said, "Sort of. Yes, I guess." He feels a sense of pride when he finishes a book and is ready for the next in the series. And, he wants to learn about all the fishing stuff in our magazine, but I can't read to him all the time! So, he knows it will help him.
But, in the strictest, non-violent communication method, I can definitely see how this can also be considered negative. When he didn't get the money - at first - he would get upset. So, I told him if he got upset, then I wasn't going to do it - no different than games we play. Long ago, he would get uptight if he lost a board game. So, I told him that is part of the game - win or lose. If he didn't want to lose and couldn't be happy either way, then I didn't like playing the games because I didn't have fun when he pouted or had a fit and I wouldn't play. So, he got over it pretty quick and now there is seldom an issue when we play competitive things - even soccer and such.
I guess you could call this bribery, but we don't really feel it is coercion. He was doing the reading, just so slowly that it was painful. My attempts to help him understand "how" to get faster were not being followed. So, I told him if he really wanted to get faster and would try it my way, and could finish the page in a certain amount of time - very close to what he was doing, then I'd give him a quarter. He liked that very much and it has really improved his speed. But, I do see how it can be considered bribery. We really thought of it as a challenge. So, I'm not sure if you would consider that detrimental. He likes it. And, I've told him it will get harder to earn the money and will eventually fade out.
Hmmm. So, would most unschoolers consider this a negative? We really never do this in any other part of our lives. I just knew he was getting embarrassed by not reading a few times, so I thought it would help him to have incentive - and it seems to work. But, I do agree that the brain develops at its own pace and we have never tried to make him feel badly - we have just said it is his choice and his bodies timeline when he reads and if he doesn't do it now, then he needs to not worry about what others think. But, what is funny is that I KNOW he can read and he actually tries hard not to! Or at least, he use to. I think it is neck and neck now. He will say "tiny" when he sees the world "little" or guess at other words. He just is having trouble focusing on the little tiny things instead of the big picture - which I know is developmental and will resolve itself. But, I'm not worried about him and don't think he thinks I am. I know he will read well when he is ready.
As for my daughter - I have to tell her to put books down when I want her to sleep and it is VERY late, or when we are waiting on her to eat dinner, or when we are trying to do dishes and she is still reading after several requests to help. She spends plenty of time reading, and I encourage it. I just need to do other things sometimes. And, I usually tell her that "I'm glad you are enjoying your book, and I want you to read, I just need some help right now."
Anyway - I'm open and I will be glad to hear comments. Just please remember that I would like to be encouraged and see others thoughts, not judgements. I'd appreciate an open discussion. Thanks!
-- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> ...but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money...
>
> ...She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have to tell her to put down her books constantly...
>
> ******There is a lot I would like to respond to, and might over the next couple days, but this is one thing that jumped out at me. You are sending EXTREMELY mixed messages. You are paying one child to read more and telling the other not to read so much.
>
> How much reading is enough? How much reading is too much? That should be for your children to decide. If your daughter wants to devour books, then let her! If your son doesn't want to read, don't bribe him. Maybe you could read books he enjoys TO him instead. Enjoy them together.
>
> There is no guarantee that your son will EVER enjoy books. I feel like paying him to read is really, REALLY heading in the wrong direction and setting him up to never enjoy books.
> ======================================================================
>
uuhomeschooler2
No, I don't expect conflicts to go away at all. And, NVC is the best thing that ever happened to us! Our kids trust us entirely. They fight - for sure. We just do it in a way that doesn't tear us apart, but rather brings us to a better understanding and compassion for each other - and for others. It is liberating and embraces our fears and needs so that we can recognize what it is that will make our lives more satisfying.
I don't mean that I am astonished that my kids are great! I mean that I don't see what they are doing or not doing as abnormal. So, when people compliment me, I awaken to realize that we do, indeed, live and behave toward each other in a way that some others admire or find noticeable. I love that we don't think it is unusual! And, I am definitely present with my kids in the moment. That is what NVC is all about. It can't be any other way.
I know my kids are wonderful. They are confident, happy, understand how to find compassion for others, know how to express themselves, play music and perform, are funny, are interesting and way beyond my abilities often, and a mystery often. I am sure that I critique and criticize for their benefit, but always show my love and compassion and understanding.
If you read the first book in NVC, you can decide for yourself. It made all the difference for me!
I don't mean that I am astonished that my kids are great! I mean that I don't see what they are doing or not doing as abnormal. So, when people compliment me, I awaken to realize that we do, indeed, live and behave toward each other in a way that some others admire or find noticeable. I love that we don't think it is unusual! And, I am definitely present with my kids in the moment. That is what NVC is all about. It can't be any other way.
I know my kids are wonderful. They are confident, happy, understand how to find compassion for others, know how to express themselves, play music and perform, are funny, are interesting and way beyond my abilities often, and a mystery often. I am sure that I critique and criticize for their benefit, but always show my love and compassion and understanding.
If you read the first book in NVC, you can decide for yourself. It made all the difference for me!
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
>
> ******Ya know... I've heard of NVC and I've never read it, but judging from your post, it seems to be that you are putting WAY too much energy into this and having WAY to high expectations. Did you expect that conflicts will go away? If NVC says that you can exist conflict free (I don't know, I've never read it) then it's lying. It's not possible. Conflict is part of life, not a problem to be solved and eliminated.
>
> Start focussing on the positives. You are spending too much time on perfecting your children. Listen to them. Play with them. Enjoy them.
>
> The fact that you are "ASTOUNDED" that your children get compliments tells me that you really are not living in the present with them. You're thinking about how they should/could be better rather then who they are right now. You are probably focusing on all the perceived negativity, rather than just "being" with them. When my children get compliments, and they do sometimes, I am not astounded, I think my children are awesome!
> =====================================================================
>
rebecca de
-
--- On Mon, 4/13/09, uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@ yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear uunschooler2: I definitely feel that all your feelings are valid. I too have had these similiar fears also.
Here are some of my thoughts:
"My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. "
Why? would it hurt to set the violin or ballet aside for now? what would it hurt? I hear other notes about money maybe if you dropped some of these lessons money would be there for other things?
- and" he really looks forward to the performance."Does he really or does he just want to please you -- since it's your idea he takes the ballet?
"I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc."
Why would you plan activities they don't want to do? would we adults like it if our friends or family made us do something because its' good for us.
"I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night! " Why would you have the fear of them just watching tv when you definitely sound like you like to offer them a variety of cool things to do along with tv time?? right?
"At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?"relax, relax , relax, read many blogs from other unschooler and trust that they are not lieing about their children learning to read, spell, learn... and have fun while their doing it
As for their reading, spelling, writing --- relax... it really sounds like they are doing just fine. Stop comparing your children to anyone else's period... ( i struggle with this very thing so I can really relate )
question why -- why am I saying no? why do I feel they aren't learning? go sit in schools for a while if you doubt that your children can't learn and what environment is the best? I caved in and said ok you can go back to kindergarten (we tried it for 1/2 year last year too -- unschooled ...) . felt that I was still "unschooling" because I was allowing my child to choose --but now I feel that him and I just caved in to everyone else around us... (that didn't want him to homeschool)
Now after almost a year in school and I substitute teach I realize that letting go of all our old baggage , all of our 'schooling' takes time. Unschooling is definitely a journey and I even think there is times that we slip back but at least we are searching... searching for better ways , answers 'etc...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
uuhomeschooler2
Well, I'm in a quandry here. Trying to use NVC, I'd say that you believe that anything that the kids don't want must not be beneficial to them. And, I can understand why you might feel that way. I'd expect that in this forum. Yet, I think that these words (below) are rather intrusive on my own free-will and a compassionate conversation.
Basically, we are average people working with average knowledge about how to raise our family in a loving, helpful atmosphere that makes some sense to us and gets us all somewhere in life - to a place we each want to be. We don't know how to make sure that the dishes get done and the laundry gets done so we have underwear and still are able to be totally present for our children if we don't ever insist on anything.
And, I firmly believe that my children will appreciate their music lessons when they are older. I know of no one that is a musician today that blames their parents when they acknowledge that their parents made them do it. Only a lucky few started music so early that they simply don't remember it ever being an issue.
Ballet is NOT more important. But, when you are committed to a performance and the others can't have you gone, just as you can't be gone from work, you have to make choices. And, we did not know when either started that the conflict would exist. And, it is only part of a practice or a full practice once a week, not all three. And, I have let him go to soccer instead of ballet - but that is a much bigger problem for the ballet people involved. And, YES, he does LOVE the performances. He shows it. He says it. He LOVES dressing up and performing.
And, yes, it is an agreement. He knows he has trouble running and other things, and knows that he wants to improve. So, like most of us, he puts up with some negatives to get to the positive of improving his soccer and basketball. I dare say that most football players that have to do ballet in the pros are a bit embarrassed - but they do it. And, I dare say there have been many times I have felt embarrassed, but that has not meant the activity wasn't worth it. That is why so many people take acting classes or voice lessons or speech or anything else - to get over their embarrassment. He was only embarrassed because he was worried that other boys wouldn't understand. That is a fear we dealt with using NVC to help him feel confident in who he was without worrying about other people's opinion.
So, in that vain, I am trying to find compassion for myself in your obvious vehemence for my methods. I don't expect you to agree. I do hope for an understanding exchange. I am certain that you have been on the receiving end of criticism for your lifestyle, so I would hope that you could offer the same understanding you would wish for from someone who believes in, say, public school or something like that. I certainly am not a public school advocate - completely the opposite. So, I would hope you would want to win me over with examples of how this looks and works and show me end results of grown people who did it this way.
I came from this list to learn and grow in understanding. Please keep the comments positive and supportive and helpful. I don't want to spend time defending. I'd rather be learning.
Thanks.
Basically, we are average people working with average knowledge about how to raise our family in a loving, helpful atmosphere that makes some sense to us and gets us all somewhere in life - to a place we each want to be. We don't know how to make sure that the dishes get done and the laundry gets done so we have underwear and still are able to be totally present for our children if we don't ever insist on anything.
And, I firmly believe that my children will appreciate their music lessons when they are older. I know of no one that is a musician today that blames their parents when they acknowledge that their parents made them do it. Only a lucky few started music so early that they simply don't remember it ever being an issue.
Ballet is NOT more important. But, when you are committed to a performance and the others can't have you gone, just as you can't be gone from work, you have to make choices. And, we did not know when either started that the conflict would exist. And, it is only part of a practice or a full practice once a week, not all three. And, I have let him go to soccer instead of ballet - but that is a much bigger problem for the ballet people involved. And, YES, he does LOVE the performances. He shows it. He says it. He LOVES dressing up and performing.
And, yes, it is an agreement. He knows he has trouble running and other things, and knows that he wants to improve. So, like most of us, he puts up with some negatives to get to the positive of improving his soccer and basketball. I dare say that most football players that have to do ballet in the pros are a bit embarrassed - but they do it. And, I dare say there have been many times I have felt embarrassed, but that has not meant the activity wasn't worth it. That is why so many people take acting classes or voice lessons or speech or anything else - to get over their embarrassment. He was only embarrassed because he was worried that other boys wouldn't understand. That is a fear we dealt with using NVC to help him feel confident in who he was without worrying about other people's opinion.
So, in that vain, I am trying to find compassion for myself in your obvious vehemence for my methods. I don't expect you to agree. I do hope for an understanding exchange. I am certain that you have been on the receiving end of criticism for your lifestyle, so I would hope that you could offer the same understanding you would wish for from someone who believes in, say, public school or something like that. I certainly am not a public school advocate - completely the opposite. So, I would hope you would want to win me over with examples of how this looks and works and show me end results of grown people who did it this way.
I came from this list to learn and grow in understanding. Please keep the comments positive and supportive and helpful. I don't want to spend time defending. I'd rather be learning.
Thanks.
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops),
>
> ******why? do musicians make better people for some reason?
> ========================================================================
>
>
> ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc.
>
> ******why is ballet more important than soccer?
> ======================================================================
>
>
> My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later.
>
> ******Are you kidding me? You've told him ballet is more important then soccer because he has flat feet and is clumsy? If your daughter were a slow runner would you force her to miss ballet for soccer? Lots of children are clumsy. Lot's of children without flat feet are a little clumsy. I dare say it's a part of childhood. Stop spending so much time trying to fix him. Let him enjoy soccer. Let choose his own activities.
> =====================================================================
>
>
> It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice.
>
> ******this bothers me a lot. it is not compassionate to force your child to do something that embarrasses him. And its not compassionate to force your child to miss something he loves, to do something that is embarrassing to him. I don't care how nicely you communicate it to him. It's not nice.
> ======================================================================
>
>
> He LOVES the performances
>
> ******are you SURE?
> ======================================================================
>
>
> and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
>
> ******an agreement is when the two parties "agree". It doesn't sound like he agreed at all. It sounds like you talked him into staying.
> ======================================================================
>
uuhomeschooler2
These were helpful comments. Thank you.
--- In [email protected], Jeff Sabo <freeboysdad@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there -
>
> I've read your post as well as the replies you've received already. Let me suggest just a couple of things for you and your family.
>
> First, I think you need to start by doing some basic research on unschooling, both as an educational choice and as a lifestyle choice. From the tone of your note and what you're struggling with, I think you're missing some of the basic understandings about what unschooling is all about. The links list on our group page is very comprehensive; start with what sings to you, but I would strongly suggest "Parenting a Free Child" by Rue Kream, as well as some foundational materials by Gatto, Sandra Dodd, Joyce Fetterol, etc. Read, digest, ask specific questions, and then regroup.
>
> Second, be sure you, your husband, and your kids can handle this type of change. Simply put, unschooling as an educational choice is very difficult (especially on the kids) if you cannot break away from some preconceived/traditional parenting and living paradigms (like choice, passion, expectations, consent, etc.) As a lifestyle choice, it is even more so. I cannot begin to express how challenging this journey will be if you are not willing/able to make some significant changes in response to what you learn; foremost among these changes is the ability to listen to your heart as well as your mind, and to trust in unschooling as the best thing for your family and yourself. If you're not willing to go there, don't go there!
>
> Finally, of course you can do this. Learn, ask questions, let go, trust, relax. But learn some before you try to committ to a change of this magnitude; "choosing" unschooling is a choice not be taken lightly.
>
> Best wishes - -
>
> J
>
> --- On Mon, 4/13/09, uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: uuhomeschooler2 <publicprofile34@...>
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do I unschool - is their hope for me?
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 2:18 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This is REALLY, REALLY long - so if you don't have time for it, I guess you can move to the next post! Thanks for understanding if you stick with me! I understand if you don't!
>
> Hmmmm. I guess I have classified myself as a relaxed homeschooler/ unschooler because we have tons of curriculum around us, but I seldom use any of it. And, we fly by the seat of our pants every day. We often do whatever strikes our fancy - or whatever chores or tasks are eminent - and VERY often spend time working out issues or concerns trying to use non-violent communication, which my husband and I found a few years ago and believe is THE most important thing we can learn with our kids.
>
> My problem - I guess - is too much fear. Tons of fear. And hopes for our children of a better existence than I have had. So, I am very, very much afraid of telling my kids they don't have to do violin anymore or ballet or whatever. Yet, after a year of practicing for an hour or two or three every day and earning tips downtown, we have gone since December with hardly any music practice - but I signed them up for a week long fiddle workshop which they didn't want to do, but did anyway, and learned a lot and made some new friends. So, I don't know what to call this sort of homeschooling. (These fears are why I find non-violent communiation so vital to our lives.)
>
> My husband and I have insisted on music lessons in the past (Suzuki and fiddle workshops), ballet for both kids once a week (the daughter wants it, the 9-year old son is fine except when it conflicts with soccer), etc. My daughter loves the ballet, but we insist on the ballet for our son because he has flat feet and is a little clumsy and have explained that it will help him with anything he wants to do in sports later. It was a little problem recently because he suddenly became self-conscious and embarrassed and makes him miss a day of soccer practice. He LOVES the performances and we think it is helping him, but I'm sure he would quit in a second if we gave him the option. Yet, he is cooperative and understands why we want it for him - we definitely used compassionate communication to come to an agreement for him to stay in - and he really looks forward to the performance.
>
> I also plan other activities that they don't want to do, but I thoroughly explain why we insist on this and get their cooperation. I also insist on teeth brushing and bathing, and limit sugar intake, and insist on certain vegetable sometimes, etc.
>
> Yet, our homeschooling looks like no others that I know, though I don't really get an inside look at anyone else's. Sometimes I feel wildly undisciplined and failing my children miserably - especially when I spend a lot of the day doing the necessities of taxes, bill paying, phone calls for appointments or setting up 4-H events, or cleaning house, making plans for a camp or whatever else needs to be done. I wonder if anyone else gets caught up in their everyday chores, leaving their kids to do whatever - play in the woods, read, play on the computer, sketch, etc. I worry that I haven't provided this wonderful science experiment (I was a scientist) or studied Spanish (for months). When we watch TV on our computer for 2 or 3 nights in a row (only one show or movie per night) then I'm afraid they will get glued to it and we will do nothing else with our lives because that is pretty much all I remember doing when I grew up - TV all night every night!
>
> At other times, when we have played a game or had what felt like a great day, I feel this is the only way to live! We talk incessantly about very important political topics, environmental issues, cultural stereotypes, abuse issues, sexuality, history, religion, soccer - you name it. They have a tremendous vocabulary and tell us everything and have absolutely no hang ups about talking to us about anything. They can cook whole meals on their own. They have become so responsible and independent and interact well together (usually). They are taking off on our new Macintosh computer and I have to ask for them for help. Yet, I don't think I am really an unschooler, but want to be, but am afraid to be. What do I do?
>
> My husband was an educator at a community college for years, then taught high school for one year. He hated it (even though his students loved him) and doesn't want our kids to go through that. He is the one that keeps me going because he insists that, even though our daughter is what I think is a horrible speller (I never say that!), she is better than a lot of his college kids were. Sometimes I get out a curriculum, or write out a list, or insist she change all the misspelling on something she wrote. But, she feels stupid or behind and then I feel bad. So, we are talking about getting some software to help her. She felt worse recently when her best friend was trying to "do school" with us. Her mother uses Bob Jones with the videos (YUCK!!!!!!) . But, for the sake of trying to jump start our own "schooling" and being social, we tried it. It was horrible. They think my daughter is REALLY behind because she was much slower at the handwriting (MUCH MUCH
> SLOWER) and she feels badly that she is a horrible speller. We quit doing it, but are still sporadically making attempts at corrections. Getting email and emailing her cousin seems to help a bit. But, I wonder how a truly unschooled kid will ever become a good speller!?! I am a college grad and had to take several scientific writing courses - wouldn't know it by this post (I'm EXHAUSTED - so don't care). And, normally (please pay no attention to the ramblings of this post) consider myself an excellent writer. I fear my kids will never write well if I do nothing to insist they do something (like Writing Strands). But, when we did the Bob Jones, I realized my daughter flew through the grammar part. I think we did a weeks worth in an hour when we did it verbally or I did the writing for her (didn't bother doing the extra stuff.) I was glad to do it because she finally understood the concept of subject, verb, etc. So, I'm conflicted. If she can do it that
> easily (minus the handwriting) , we must be doing okay. But, on the other hand, it sure helped to have the curriculum explain stuff to her that I have tried and wound up with an upset child who didn't get it. So, how do I get her to use curriculum if it doesn't interest her? Yet, she WANTED to do it if it meant being with her friend - but it was impossible to continue, so that incentive is gone. Do I just wait until she is in high school age time and try then? How do I divert the "regular" people from questioning her abilities and our education until then?
>
> Personally, my husband and I think our kids know boatloads of information and the only things they are behind on are the traditional way of learning and the math and reading/writing (for our son). My son still has trouble with Dick and Jane at age 9, but we are currently paying him per page to read The Magic Treehouse, because he is extremely motivated by money and because he felt stupid when he couldn't read the Bob Jones stuff with his same-age friend. He is much happier with the arrangement and seems to be progressing. And, it is a bit selfish on my part because I really want him to be a bit more self-reliant since he is so very active and interested in so many things: I want him to be able to read the articles on fishing and snakes and glass-making and stamps, etc - on his own. Yet, I know that my daughter read when she was good and ready, with my encouragement - about his same age. She now is picking out Little Women for herself at age 12 and I have
> to tell her to put down her books constantly. My husband and I both feel confident they will do fine in that area if they don't have to be on the school's timetable.
>
> He's not at all worried about math, either, though I am not as confident. He insists that, when they are ready, they could do all the math they need to learn in one year. (He did every kind of math and was a straight A student). I only did basic Algebra in school. I skipped trig and geometry (not knowing I needed it). Somehow, I didn't do any in college, but graduated with a degree in Botany. Then, in grad school, I aced statistics and calculus, but couldn't do it today to save me! So, I worry about whether I need to insist on math books for them. I did make them do it last year for a few months, but haven't cracked the books since then. They do love a computer game called Timez Attack, though, and have recently started playing it again.
>
> Still, I become fearful when people see that my son can't read without tremendous struggling. And can't really write at all. I'm afraid they will think I'm just not educating my kids, when I know that is not at all true - though I doubt myself when I never seem to have time to "do school". But, I've heard many very nasty comments from my "friends/acquaintan ces" about other "methods" or alternative schools and I'm afraid we will be labeled and discarded as not desirable. So, I stay hush about our methods, except to say we do a variety of things and don't worry about what grade they are in and don't test them. We moved here about a year ago and have been through 2 homeschooling groups and another group - all failing after a short time because the groups dissolved or the kids went back to school or the families split up and moved. So, we keep having to start over with trying to make friends. And, we have no church home because we are irreligious now - so
> not much in the way of friends inviting us over. It is really frustrating.
>
> My kids are in soccer, ballet, 4-H (though we only have two other kids in the group), a little drama production last month, sewing class, and some other stuff. They get lots of kid time in those activities, and have invited kids to do things individually - but it seems no one really latches onto us. And, this is a very small town, so we know a lot of people. A lot of our friends are so caught up with doing their school stuff or after school activities that my kids can't do or their homeschooling during certain times, and doing church, etc, that we just don't fit into their mold. So, I find myself constantly being pulled toward doing a curriculum or putting them in the local private school that is doing all kinds of wonderful, unschooling types of things. The class my daughter would be in will spend this week preparing and the next week going on a week-long canoe trip that I could go with them on, too. And then they are off to Washington D.C. And, I
> think, hmmmm. My daughter would LOVE to do that and maybe she would be better off there!
>
> But, I also hear very negative things from disgruntled parents about the fact that they don't do anything in the school and there is no accountability (whatever that means). And, I love the interaction that my daughter has with her brother, and I don't feel he would be better off there at all! And, I wonder about all the wasted time they have at the school that they could be wasting here free of charge and free to be together and free to be with me listening to them and knowing what they are doing and reinforcing what they are doing every day, albeit without the extra adult support and help or kids to be with. Still, I find myself comparing what they are doing and find myself thinking they would have more opportunities at the private school (at a car's worth of price every year).
>
> Yet, I realize that we are going to take our first "real" family vacation in a few weeks and I want them to help me plan it and get ready for it. I can't see that happening if they are in that school. Is that selfish? Is that unschooling if my daughter would want to go, but we don't give her the choice? I simply won't put myself through the public school system (though I have definitely been tempted to that, too - when I feel that I am failing to provide all the wonderful opportunities that I wish I could.) Yet, I know my kids have done more in their short little lives than I did till college or later! They go to music festivals every year and performed on stage and been in fiddle contests, they have traveled to New Mexico and Nebraska and Michigan and Illinois and more. They have lived in 5 states. They went on a little weekend wagon train ride in full costume. They have taken horseback riding lessons (which we hated to leave behind), they currently
> have baby chicks, they have been to museums and science centers and zoos, and Suzuki music camp, and 4-H camp, and a camp in a state far from her, and been in ice skating shows, and more.
>
> STILL, I'm wondering if anyone else feels the pull of a private school? What do you do if your 12-year old child wonders if they are good enough to succeed in school? I'm afraid to let her try because I'm afraid she'll never come home simply because she wants to be with kids - thinking that maybe being with them in school , as opposed to these other activities - might bring more friends. She is not begging to go, but has made a few comments. And, I feel like a failure because she seems to want to go.
>
> We constantly get compliments on our kids - mostly from people in a doctors office or other setting who see them working together quietly. I'm always astounded because we get so many comments and they seem to think my kids behave differently than the norm. I guess they do, but I still see the conflicts and all the time we put into resolving conflicts peacefully and with compassion.
>
> My daughter's cousin went to a nice little charter school after homeschooling for a couple years. And, my daughter always envied her being in the great musical productions that we didn't have access to. So, she has wanted to try it ever since. Yet, her cousin really doesn't like school and was always limited by the teacher playing favorites, and she is not really a happy child or a motivated child at all - rather the opposite. Yet, I'm worried that if I let my kids go to a private school and break our bank and I have to work, then all that I have accomplished in our family dynamics will dissolve and disappear. And, I'm afraid I will never feel that I succeeded because it will be someone else who can claim that I gave them a child that I let fall behind in reading, spelling, math - and they are the one's who helped them learn!
>
> Right now, I am up and it is after 4 a.m. So, I expect I will sleep late (my husband gets up very early to go to a corporate job he would rather not do, but is willing to do it to care for his family and never begrudges me anything!) But, then I will feel badly when our day starts late - as usual - because I know the kids will sleep as late as me. Sometimes I think that is just fine and they need that sleep. Other days, I think I'm irresponsible. (That was confirmed by a new found friend this weekend who was complaining about the private school babying the kids and starting school later because they felt the kids needed their sleep. Her response was that the kids needed to learn how to live in the real world! Yet, I never did do well with any work or class that started before 9 or 10 am! I NEVER make an appointment before 10 am if I can possibly help it!) And, I like it that the kids can have as much time in the evening with their dad as possible. We
> never put them to bed before he goes to sleep. We are often up later!
>
> So, do some unschoolers feel this is normal or at least not abnormal behavior? My kids don't seem to mind, but then I get anxious if we don't get our day started because they take forever to get breakfast and get to doing anything (whatever that is). Does anyone else's day start this way?
>
> Oh, lots of fears. What do you all do? Am I average? Am I not at all an unschooler - or do I have hope? Can anyone help me see my way to a free conscience - or give suggestions or concrete days or activities they have in their home?
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Ren Allen
~~If you read the first book in NVC, you can decide for yourself. It made all the difference for me!~~
A lot of people here have read and/or use NVC. Problem is, using a peaceful method of communication to manipulate other humans is still manipulation! So that will probably get discussed in depth here. If you post about something, it's open for discussion (as per the list guidelines) so please be prepared to get questioned about many of the issues and ideas you posted about.
This is a discussion list and when someone posts about paying kids to read, or making them stay with lessons/classes they don't want any longer or any idea that can be harmful to joyful unschooling, it will get questioned and discussed.
Keep in mind that when people are giving you feedback, it's about the ideas you presented and not about you as an individual. People here understand that the parents posting here love and care about their children deeply. It's assumed that you do or you wouldn't be here. But some of the ideas and methods discussed can make people feel defensive (parenting is a topic close to all of our hearts of course) when they get questioned about the "why's" of what they do.
There are literally hundreds of families here who live in partnership with their children and are not forcing lessons/classes, or paying their kids to read, or talking nicely to them to make them do things they don't want to do. We can give you ideas for getting there if that's what you want.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
A lot of people here have read and/or use NVC. Problem is, using a peaceful method of communication to manipulate other humans is still manipulation! So that will probably get discussed in depth here. If you post about something, it's open for discussion (as per the list guidelines) so please be prepared to get questioned about many of the issues and ideas you posted about.
This is a discussion list and when someone posts about paying kids to read, or making them stay with lessons/classes they don't want any longer or any idea that can be harmful to joyful unschooling, it will get questioned and discussed.
Keep in mind that when people are giving you feedback, it's about the ideas you presented and not about you as an individual. People here understand that the parents posting here love and care about their children deeply. It's assumed that you do or you wouldn't be here. But some of the ideas and methods discussed can make people feel defensive (parenting is a topic close to all of our hearts of course) when they get questioned about the "why's" of what they do.
There are literally hundreds of families here who live in partnership with their children and are not forcing lessons/classes, or paying their kids to read, or talking nicely to them to make them do things they don't want to do. We can give you ideas for getting there if that's what you want.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~Our kids trust us entirely.~~
Do they? Do they trust that when they want to do something different than what you want, you will listen? Do they trust you to support their interests and passions even if it's different than what you want? Can they trust that you completely and totally trust THEM?
Trust is a multi-faceted thing. I don't think it's trust when a parent is forcing something on a child against their will. Music is not more important than other interests. In fact, the best way to kill a passion or interest is to force it. What a parent wants for a child is NOT more important than what the child wants for their own lives.
The adults in my life thought they knew what was best for me. They didn't. I knew what was best and it took me years to get past all their ideas to my OWN. I trusted the adults in my life to love me and care for me, but I couldn't trust them with my innermost passions and interests. I want a completely different reality for my family. One in which my own agenda is not more important than their desires.
My oldest son is home visiting right now. I see him tinkering on the computer he brought with him and smile to myself....had we decided that the guitar lessons he started were more important than other things, he may not be the tech geek he is now. He can build and repair computers, tell you all about the latest technology and parts and all sorts of things I know nothing about. It's hard to keep up with him (ok, I can't actually).
I think it's pretty audacious for any human to think they can know what another human beings will need for their own life journey. Some people might need to be really great gardeners or beekeepers, how would you know if you insist that music is more important? While parents are pushing their own agendas in the hope of building a happy life for their child, they are missing all the things that might actually build the happy life, right now.
Ren
Do they? Do they trust that when they want to do something different than what you want, you will listen? Do they trust you to support their interests and passions even if it's different than what you want? Can they trust that you completely and totally trust THEM?
Trust is a multi-faceted thing. I don't think it's trust when a parent is forcing something on a child against their will. Music is not more important than other interests. In fact, the best way to kill a passion or interest is to force it. What a parent wants for a child is NOT more important than what the child wants for their own lives.
The adults in my life thought they knew what was best for me. They didn't. I knew what was best and it took me years to get past all their ideas to my OWN. I trusted the adults in my life to love me and care for me, but I couldn't trust them with my innermost passions and interests. I want a completely different reality for my family. One in which my own agenda is not more important than their desires.
My oldest son is home visiting right now. I see him tinkering on the computer he brought with him and smile to myself....had we decided that the guitar lessons he started were more important than other things, he may not be the tech geek he is now. He can build and repair computers, tell you all about the latest technology and parts and all sorts of things I know nothing about. It's hard to keep up with him (ok, I can't actually).
I think it's pretty audacious for any human to think they can know what another human beings will need for their own life journey. Some people might need to be really great gardeners or beekeepers, how would you know if you insist that music is more important? While parents are pushing their own agendas in the hope of building a happy life for their child, they are missing all the things that might actually build the happy life, right now.
Ren
uuhomeschooler2
I am amazed at the negative response I am receiving. As I said in another post, I came here to learn, not be lambasted. I think my post is being completely distorted and makes it sound like I'm a violent person. Non-violent communication is nothing like you portray it. And, unless you have really used it and read the book and tried to understand, then I believe I have not made myself clear. I can't believe all the negativism about my relationship with my children. In fact, my kids do talk with me and certainly feel no need to rebel behind my back.
I just read the post to my 12-year old and she thinks that you don't know anything about non-violent communication. She is telling me she thinks it is a wonderful idea to let kids follow their interest. But, she doesn't understand why there is a problem. She likes to have some direction and is glad she is capable of some things now that she wouldn't be if we hadn't insisted at times - though not all the time.
My daughter is saying she was reading a book today where a girl grew up with dolphins. She ended up knowing a ton, that is true. She REALLY understood the dolphins. But, when she tried to interact with humans, she ended up not liking them. She is telling me it relates to this discussion because if the girl had been in a different environment, she would have learned the skills that helped her communicate better.
I think that what most people are complaining about here is my unwillingness to completely sacrafice all my own hopes and my own time. I do believe that understanding is a two-way street. If my child wants to eat watermellon before bed, and then wets the bed, that impacts my sleep, my time, my resources for washing the clothes and sheets, and the longevity of the mattress. So, I think it is reasonable to insist (with explanation about why and my own needs) that he not eat watermellon before bed. I don't think I am being "nicey-nice" and then causing this horrible rebellion later that you speak about.
I'd rather you not respond later if you feel the need to speak sarcastically to me. My family does talk and does listen. And, we are working on our relationship, just as all people do if they want to continue to understand.
I just read the post to my 12-year old and she thinks that you don't know anything about non-violent communication. She is telling me she thinks it is a wonderful idea to let kids follow their interest. But, she doesn't understand why there is a problem. She likes to have some direction and is glad she is capable of some things now that she wouldn't be if we hadn't insisted at times - though not all the time.
My daughter is saying she was reading a book today where a girl grew up with dolphins. She ended up knowing a ton, that is true. She REALLY understood the dolphins. But, when she tried to interact with humans, she ended up not liking them. She is telling me it relates to this discussion because if the girl had been in a different environment, she would have learned the skills that helped her communicate better.
I think that what most people are complaining about here is my unwillingness to completely sacrafice all my own hopes and my own time. I do believe that understanding is a two-way street. If my child wants to eat watermellon before bed, and then wets the bed, that impacts my sleep, my time, my resources for washing the clothes and sheets, and the longevity of the mattress. So, I think it is reasonable to insist (with explanation about why and my own needs) that he not eat watermellon before bed. I don't think I am being "nicey-nice" and then causing this horrible rebellion later that you speak about.
I'd rather you not respond later if you feel the need to speak sarcastically to me. My family does talk and does listen. And, we are working on our relationship, just as all people do if they want to continue to understand.
--- In [email protected], The Coffee Goddess <hoffmanwilson@...> wrote:
>
> This brings to mind what soured my mouth for the whole "non-violent communication" thing...I think in theory it might be based on good ideals, not sure, but the only family I knew who did it sounds like your family....they claimed to be unschoolers, and yet completely controlled their children through this "nicey-nicey" speak--"It makes me uncomfortable when you watch tv, so we will not be watching it, sweetie..." and "Your eating sugar makes me feel badly, so I need you not to do it..."--it was so horribly co-dependent and fake in its sing-songy syrupy sweetness--and the children would agree to mom and dad's face, and then rebel behind their backs. Mom and dad also didn't understand why OTHER people also couldn't fight their battles for them--"My children need to not watch television, and it makes me uncomfortable when we are at your house and your tv is on, so I need for you to turn your TV off when we arrive"--UH, I don't *think* so...
>
> I may have more to say about the rest of your post later, but just wanted to stress that "Non-violent communication" does NOT mean you are really communicating with your kids. How about leave the NVC on the sidelines and actually TALK and LISTEN to what your kids want for themselves? That would be truly the most non-violent way to communicate....
>
> Dana
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Ren Allen
~~I know of no one that is a musician today that blames their
parents when they acknowledge that their parents made them do it~~
I know of a LOT of people who ended up hating music and music lessons because their parents forced them. Plenty of us who were forced, don't play any instruments today. There are also a lot of musicians out there that give their parents credit for something they should own themselves. It's not the parents glory to have, nor should they get it.
If music is inside a person, they'll embrace it and delve into it with or without the pushing. I certainly don't want my children to give me credit for things they learn, do you? Kids who are controlled and pushed end up blaming or crediting their parents for their learning. I don't see that as a healthy thing.
I know quite a few indy musicians and all of them were passionate and immersed in music because that's how they were wired. Not because anybody forced it, maybe because they were surrounded by it though.
People who write music and perform and really, really LOVE music are there because they love it, not because someone manipulated them.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
parents when they acknowledge that their parents made them do it~~
I know of a LOT of people who ended up hating music and music lessons because their parents forced them. Plenty of us who were forced, don't play any instruments today. There are also a lot of musicians out there that give their parents credit for something they should own themselves. It's not the parents glory to have, nor should they get it.
If music is inside a person, they'll embrace it and delve into it with or without the pushing. I certainly don't want my children to give me credit for things they learn, do you? Kids who are controlled and pushed end up blaming or crediting their parents for their learning. I don't see that as a healthy thing.
I know quite a few indy musicians and all of them were passionate and immersed in music because that's how they were wired. Not because anybody forced it, maybe because they were surrounded by it though.
People who write music and perform and really, really LOVE music are there because they love it, not because someone manipulated them.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
uuhomeschooler2
You really don't understand NVC at all - and that is not at all an NVC way to put it. And, I guess I have not been the one to present it in this setting. It is nothing but choices. That doesn't mean that I do it well all the time. And, I'd say that consensual living MUST take into account that a parent has needs, too. I'd say me being the only one to do dishes, do bills, make dinner, etc. would be against my consent and prevent me from doing other things WITH my children. But, I also understand that, like Suzuki, you need to start very early to make this work "perfectly". I'd think that those on this list would understand that and encourage instead of defame.
And, I think I'd rather force my kids to brush their teeth now than have the dozen cavities that a friend of mine has.
At this point, I think the representation for unschooling has not been favorable. I am still going to pursue my investigation of it and how I can or cannot be a part of it. But, I'd sure appreciate more encouragement than this.
And, I think I'd rather force my kids to brush their teeth now than have the dozen cavities that a friend of mine has.
At this point, I think the representation for unschooling has not been favorable. I am still going to pursue my investigation of it and how I can or cannot be a part of it. But, I'd sure appreciate more encouragement than this.
--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:08 AM, The Coffee Goddess wrote:
>
> > This brings to mind what soured my mouth for the whole "non-violent
> > communication" thing...I think in theory it might be based on good
> > ideals, not sure, but the only family I knew who did it sounds like
> > your family....they claimed to be unschoolers, and yet completely
> > controlled their children through this "nicey-nicey" speak--"It
> > makes me uncomfortable when you watch tv, so we will not be watching
> > it, sweetie..." and "Your eating sugar makes me feel badly, so I
> > need you not to do it..."--it was so horribly co-dependent and fake
> > in its sing-songy syrupy sweetness--and the children would agree to
> > mom and dad's face, and then rebel behind their backs.
>
> NVC, in this case, seems to me to be a new way to manipulate people,
> just couched in "I" and "feeling" language. "Gaining cooperation"
> sounds like "I will talk you out of what you want to do, so you'll do
> what I want you to do. But I'll sound nicer about it." It is
> particularly insidious when parents do this to kids, because the
> parents keep the power in the relationship, but make it seem like they
> are living consensually.
>
> That children must attend lessons because parents think it's the right
> thing for them; being paid to read Magic Treehouse books; and
> insistence on certain foods, habits, and limiting sugar (to name a few
> issues in the original post) have already been identified as fear-
> based by both the op and those responding.
>
> Unschooling can't co-exist with fear. It's as simple as that.
>
> Unschooling embraces making choices, not insisting on compliance,
> however sweetly that might be presented. Here's a good page on choices:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/choice
>
> It's a good place to start to begin to understand unschooling, along
> with this one, from Pam S.:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
>
> Robin B.
>
uuhomeschooler2
Thank you. This is useful information. Hard to implement. And, must see how my family feels about it. But, helpful.
Thanks, again.
Thanks, again.
--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
> It sounds as though you have some preconceived beliefs:
>
> 1) Your children must learn certain things in order to be successful - and
>
> 2) Your children will not learn those things without being coerced or manipulated into doing so.
>
> Inside those two assumptions are other things, which I'll leave for now, but wanted to point out one: "Successful" in #1 would be success as defined by your or your husband, or society, or school.
>
> It would be really, really helpful in your unschooling journey to drop both beliefs. Lots of unschooling parents drop the second belief, or as much as they're able - but then they get frustrated because their child doesn't seem to be learning X, Y, or Z by the time the parents think they should.
>
> Instead of having a List of Unusual Size that YOU need your kids to learn, can you trust that THEY will learn EXACTLY what they need to live the lives they desire? And as their needs change, they'll learn different things? 'Cause that's what happens. As they need it, they learn it - without coercion, without manipulation, without curriculum or classes.
>
> There is NO list of things a person must learn to be successful. Or, maybe it's more like this: in each community, if a person truly MUST learn something to be successful, that thing will be so pervasive that *no one* can escape learning it.
>
> That's what I came to believe - if something is so all-fired important that a human can't possibly exist in society without learning it, the desire to learn it will be there soon enough. And allowing a person to learn it in their own time, in their own way, is the most effective way to make it stick - that's been proven time and again.
>
> That was so freeing - I completely dropped my agenda, my need to have my kids learn *anything at all* at that point - timetable or no, and that's when our unschooling lives really took off.
>
> Caren
>
Ren Allen
~~I just read the post to my 12-year old and she thinks that you don't know anything about non-violent communication.~~
Non-violent communication is a way of communicating. If you are using it to force your child to do something they wouldn't do otherwise, it's not very peaceful.
Why do you feel the need to drag your children into a discussion in which you are feeling "lambasted"? This is your discussion and your children are going to defend you against ANY idea or ANY other human being because children are naturally loyal to their parents. Let this be your time to learn about unschooling and the new ideas you are encountering.
The guidelines at this list very clearly state that if you post something it is open to discussion. I am sad that people feel "lambasted" when they get questioned about ideas that are very unhelpful to unschooling, but the fact is, you seem to be looking for support to continue to force your children to take lessons they don't want and pats on the back for doing exactly what you're already doing. You can get that anywhere.
This list is here to help people move towards MORE trust, not less. If you want to learn about trusting your children more, hang in there. If you want us to say sweet things about the ideas you are presenting, this might not be the best place for discussion.
Maybe reading for a while will help you get a "feel" for the list without feeling personally attacked. Just a suggestion....
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Non-violent communication is a way of communicating. If you are using it to force your child to do something they wouldn't do otherwise, it's not very peaceful.
Why do you feel the need to drag your children into a discussion in which you are feeling "lambasted"? This is your discussion and your children are going to defend you against ANY idea or ANY other human being because children are naturally loyal to their parents. Let this be your time to learn about unschooling and the new ideas you are encountering.
The guidelines at this list very clearly state that if you post something it is open to discussion. I am sad that people feel "lambasted" when they get questioned about ideas that are very unhelpful to unschooling, but the fact is, you seem to be looking for support to continue to force your children to take lessons they don't want and pats on the back for doing exactly what you're already doing. You can get that anywhere.
This list is here to help people move towards MORE trust, not less. If you want to learn about trusting your children more, hang in there. If you want us to say sweet things about the ideas you are presenting, this might not be the best place for discussion.
Maybe reading for a while will help you get a "feel" for the list without feeling personally attacked. Just a suggestion....
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~I'd say that consensual living MUST take into account that a parent has needs, too.~~
Of course. But are the things you are forcing on your children really YOUR need? That's a codependent way to look at it dontcha think?
Your needs are your own. About you and what you want, not about what you want FOR other people. Let their needs/wants be THEIR own. Let yours be yours.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Of course. But are the things you are forcing on your children really YOUR need? That's a codependent way to look at it dontcha think?
Your needs are your own. About you and what you want, not about what you want FOR other people. Let their needs/wants be THEIR own. Let yours be yours.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
swissarmy_wife
I guess you could call this bribery, but we don't really feel it is coercion.
******It is your intentions that would make it bribery or not. If you are paying them so that they will read more, then it is a form of bribery.
==================================================================
He was doing the reading, just so slowly that it was painful.
******Painful to who?
==================================================================
My attempts to help him understand "how" to get faster were not being followed. So, I told him if he really wanted to get faster and would try it my way, and could finish the page in a certain amount of time - very close to what he was doing, then I'd give him a quarter.
******So you bribed him with money to try it your way?
===================================================================
He liked that very much and it has really improved his speed. But, I do see how it can be considered bribery. We really thought of it as a challenge. So, I'm not sure if you would consider that detrimental. He likes it.
******He likes the quarter. Not the reading. Why don't you just give him the quarter?
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Many of us, myself included, have spent a great deal of time relearning how to live without trying to control or manipulate our children. I can tell you from my experience, that once I let go of the idea that I had to be in control of their lives and their choices the entire house experienced a major paradigm shift.
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******It is your intentions that would make it bribery or not. If you are paying them so that they will read more, then it is a form of bribery.
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He was doing the reading, just so slowly that it was painful.
******Painful to who?
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My attempts to help him understand "how" to get faster were not being followed. So, I told him if he really wanted to get faster and would try it my way, and could finish the page in a certain amount of time - very close to what he was doing, then I'd give him a quarter.
******So you bribed him with money to try it your way?
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He liked that very much and it has really improved his speed. But, I do see how it can be considered bribery. We really thought of it as a challenge. So, I'm not sure if you would consider that detrimental. He likes it.
******He likes the quarter. Not the reading. Why don't you just give him the quarter?
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> As for my daughter - I have to tell her to put books down when I want her to sleep and it is VERY late, or when we are waiting on her to eat dinner, or when we are trying to do dishes and she is still reading after several requests to help. She spends plenty of time reading, and I encourage it. I just need to do other things sometimes. And, I usually tell her that "I'm glad you are enjoying your book, and I want you to read, I just need some help right now."******Gosh, I'm reading your posts and wondering if you realize how much energy you must expend being so controlling. I really don't mean that in a way to offend you, but in a "you REALLY ought to think about this" way. Almost every sentence you write has something in it about you controlling some aspect of one of your children's lives. Whether it be ballet or quarters or helping you with chores.
>
Many of us, myself included, have spent a great deal of time relearning how to live without trying to control or manipulate our children. I can tell you from my experience, that once I let go of the idea that I had to be in control of their lives and their choices the entire house experienced a major paradigm shift.
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swissarmy_wife
> I know of no one that is a musician today that blames their******I also know plenty of people who were forced into music lessons and do not play an instrument today.
> parents when they acknowledge that their parents made them do it
I can think of two teenagers right now that were both forced into music lessons. The first is a relaxed homeschooled child who's parents decided he should play piano. He is INCREDIBLY talented, yet hates to play. Rushes through pieces and does a little bit here and there to impress his parents. The second is a traditionally homeschooled child who was a phenomenal violinist. He decided to give high school a try and as soon as he realized he had free will, there went the violin. His parents are flabbergasted... I am not.
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Robin Bentley
> You really don't understand NVC at all - and that is not at all anQuite likely. But what I'm going on is what you've written. It's all
> NVC way to put it.
we have.
> But, I also understand that, like Suzuki, you need to start veryHmm. I'm not making slanderous or libelous statements about you.
> early to make this work "perfectly". I'd think that those on this
> list would understand that and encourage instead of defame.
That's what "defame" means.
The unschoolers on this list seek to help people understand
unschooling. What you've described in your family is not unschooling.
You even asked us to tell you if it wasn't. We did and now you're
protesting.
>So your relationship with your children isn't as important as cavities?
>
> And, I think I'd rather force my kids to brush their teeth now than
> have the dozen cavities that a friend of mine has.
>You can read here about ways unschoolers help their kids with brushing
teeth without forcing them:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/brushingteeth.html
>If you want encouragement for the ways you posted about how you treat
> At this point, I think the representation for unschooling has not
> been favorable. I am still going to pursue my investigation of it
> and how I can or cannot be a part of it. But, I'd sure appreciate
> more encouragement than this.
your kids, I'm afraid you won't find it here.
Of course, you can choose to unschool or not. No one is going to force
you to do it <g>.
Unschooling and mindful parenting come a big shock to people new to
them. These concepts are unlike anything most people have been exposed
to. I would suggest reading at the sites I linked below (especially
Pam's "How to Unschool"), and, as Ren said, read this list without
posting for awhile.
Sometimes taking a deep breath, and reading and researching until
things make more sense (and doesn't feel so personal) can help.
Robin B.
>
>>
>> http://sandradodd.com/choice
>>
>> It's a good place to start to begin to understand unschooling, along
>> with this one, from Pam S.:
>>
>> http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
>>
>>
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], "uuhomeschooler2" <publicprofile34@...> wrote:
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I just read the post to my 12-year old and she thinks that you don't know anything about non-violent communication.
******Why would this be out of the ordinary? This is not an NVC message board.
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She is telling me she thinks it is a wonderful idea to let kids follow their interest. But, she doesn't understand why there is a problem. She likes to have some direction and is glad she is capable of some things now that she wouldn't be if we hadn't insisted at times - though not all the time.
******Why are you discussing your issues with your 12 year old? They are YOUR issues. You might want to sort them out before you start discussing them with your kids.
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I think that what most people are complaining about here is my unwillingness to completely sacrafice all my own hopes and my own time. I do believe that understanding is a two-way street. If my child wants to eat watermellon before bed, and then wets the bed, that impacts my sleep, my time, my resources for washing the clothes and sheets, and the longevity of the mattress. So, I think it is reasonable to insist (with explanation about why and my own needs) that he not eat watermellon before bed. I don't think I am being "nicey-nice" and then causing this horrible rebellion later that you speak about.
******When you post here, you are bringing your words to over 2000 people. Expect that they will be discussed. Things that are not helpful to unschooling will be discussed and pointed out.
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>******Are you taking all of our words and comparing them to NVC? In fact you try so hard to use NVC perfectly that you could perceive anything we say as violent. Remember that we don't all use NVC, not do we have to when responding to your posts. That's going to make it very hard for you to learn here.
> I am amazed at the negative response I am receiving. As I said in another post, I came here to learn, not be lambasted. I think my post is being completely distorted and makes it sound like I'm a violent person. Non-violent communication is nothing like you portray it. And, unless you have really used it and read the book and tried to understand, then I believe I have not made myself clear. I can't believe all the negativism about my relationship with my children. In fact, my kids do talk with me and certainly feel no need to rebel behind my back.
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I just read the post to my 12-year old and she thinks that you don't know anything about non-violent communication.
******Why would this be out of the ordinary? This is not an NVC message board.
====================================================================
She is telling me she thinks it is a wonderful idea to let kids follow their interest. But, she doesn't understand why there is a problem. She likes to have some direction and is glad she is capable of some things now that she wouldn't be if we hadn't insisted at times - though not all the time.
******Why are you discussing your issues with your 12 year old? They are YOUR issues. You might want to sort them out before you start discussing them with your kids.
====================================================================
I think that what most people are complaining about here is my unwillingness to completely sacrafice all my own hopes and my own time. I do believe that understanding is a two-way street. If my child wants to eat watermellon before bed, and then wets the bed, that impacts my sleep, my time, my resources for washing the clothes and sheets, and the longevity of the mattress. So, I think it is reasonable to insist (with explanation about why and my own needs) that he not eat watermellon before bed. I don't think I am being "nicey-nice" and then causing this horrible rebellion later that you speak about.
******When you post here, you are bringing your words to over 2000 people. Expect that they will be discussed. Things that are not helpful to unschooling will be discussed and pointed out.
====================================================================
> I'd rather you not respond later if you feel the need to speak sarcastically to me. My family does talk and does listen. And, we are working on our relationship, just as all people do if they want to continue to understand.******I cannot find one bit of sarcasm in the post below.
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>
>
> --- In [email protected], The Coffee Goddess <hoffmanwilson@> wrote:
> >
> > This brings to mind what soured my mouth for the whole "non-violent communication" thing...I think in theory it might be based on good ideals, not sure, but the only family I knew who did it sounds like your family....they claimed to be unschoolers, and yet completely controlled their children through this "nicey-nicey" speak--"It makes me uncomfortable when you watch tv, so we will not be watching it, sweetie..." and "Your eating sugar makes me feel badly, so I need you not to do it..."--it was so horribly co-dependent and fake in its sing-songy syrupy sweetness--and the children would agree to mom and dad's face, and then rebel behind their backs. Mom and dad also didn't understand why OTHER people also couldn't fight their battles for them--"My children need to not watch television, and it makes me uncomfortable when we are at your house and your tv is on, so I need for you to turn your TV off when we arrive"--UH, I don't *think* so...
> >
> > I may have more to say about the rest of your post later, but just wanted to stress that "Non-violent communication" does NOT mean you are really communicating with your kids. How about leave the NVC on the sidelines and actually TALK and LISTEN to what your kids want for themselves? That would be truly the most non-violent way to communicate....
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>