Re: Question about ds's intense interests (For Robin B.)
[email protected]
> It's a process. It will come as your thinking changes from "this isThanks for making that distinction. That's what I've been hearing in all the responses and am grateful to everyone for opening my eyes to this reality.
> the way we've always done it" to "we have choices."
> Be aware that you might get some resistance to this if you "discussOh, good point! Thanks for the warning.
> this all" with your family. If your ds is sensitive to transitions,
> then saying "oh, look at all the things we could do instead!" or
> "let's dispense with expectations!" could easily be met with "I don't
> want to do that."
> And not just from your ds. Expecting everyone toLove the way you put it -- unschooling bandwagon! Thanks for preparing me for any possible let down I may experience as a result of my overeagerness! Again, I need to curb my expectations.
> jump on your unschooling bandwagon might be a bit much all at once!
> It might be better to start implementing changes gently, instance byWise advice -- yes, I will.
> instance. Work on your own thinking first. Read at Sandra's and
> Joyce's sites.
> Use the random generators for some angles for change.Thanks! I'm printing out these articles (and more).
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling (click on "randomize me"
> then on the door)
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ (click on "go to a random page")
> This leads back to expectations. You seem to need some kind of outcome(Gulp) Guilty as charged!
> here, like you want him to make a leap of faith for your reasons, not
> his.
> Why can't he enjoy what he enjoys now, for as long as he does?Because I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it. Is that a valid concern from the unschooling point of view, or am I just worrying needlessly?
We let him pursue his interest as long as he wants, but we try to limit the military books he borrows from the library (and some that we've bought for him) to those from the juvenile category, not the adult's.
I've read the book, _The Hurried Child_ by David Elkind, now in its 25th anniversary. And he talks about how the world disrespects children and wants them to grow up right away, wants to deprive them of their innocence, their sense of wonder, in short, their childhood. But we want them to enjoy their childhood and youth because these are the foundation of adulthood. And these periods are really such a short time compared to adulthood.
> He'll move on when he's ready, if you give him opportunities. He canYes, but I will print out the article just to make sure I understand what it really means. Thanks for the link.
> say yes or no <g>. Have you heard of strewing?
>
> http://sandradodd.com/strewing
> I think reminding him that he isn't trying new things, but ought to,Yes, you're right -- my poor baby!
> could be keeping him stuck. It might feel like pressure to him, so
> he's going to hold onto whatever he loves even more tightly.
> My dd ate Dove Bars for breakfast for months and months. I could haveYou've described me exactly -- the agenda mom, unfortunately. Still need to overcome this mindset.
> said "why don't you have this instead?" or "how about you try french
> toast? You know how you felt about Dove Bars before? It could be the
> same with french toast!" That would have been me with an agenda. She
> would probably never have tried french toast if I approached it that
> way.
> Instead, I made sure we had Dove Bars until she was done enjoyingWow! So it's OK if we just let them be, if we just let them stick to one thing as long as they want and not try to help them *broaden their horizons*? Because when I'm enjoying something so much (like creme brulee' or chocolate mousse or whatever), I just want to share the joy that I'm experiencing with my kids. Isn't that natural?
> them. I gave suggestions when I could tell she was beginning to move
> on. Now she likes raisin bran or bacon or eggs or chicken curry with
> naan, or pasta, or strawberries, or crepes, or whatever she feels
> like. Even french toast!
> Right now, her favorite meal is cheddar & potato perogies. I'veI see what you mean -- it's all about respecting their choices and respecting who they are.
> stocked lots, so she can have them. My husband's favorite breakfast is
> Multigrain Cheerios. I've stocked lots, so he can have them. Then
> things will change. Or not. Dh has eaten Cheerios for breakfast since
> he was in elementary school. He does eat other things, but he prefers
> that particular cereal. It's okay. Really!
> It comes down to acceptance of where your ds is *right now.* And youThank you, Robin, for taking the time to spell things out for me. It's been really enlightening. You are right -- in the end, acceptance is what matters most. And when there is acceptance, there is peace in the family. I plan to read more & more of those unschooling articles so that I can overthrow my old way of thinking and learn to be more accepting -- for my family's sake.
> being open to change when he shows he's ready. It's definitely a shift
> in thinking.
Gratefully,
Shelley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
Kids explore complicated ethical issues at far younger ages than most people realize, because they don't tend to approach those issues in the same ways adults are used to. Specifically, they don't go right to commentary and discussion as a way to process the hows and whys of topics like violence and cruelty - they read and watch and play games and think about all of that on their own. Talking about those issues is something that's more likely to start in the mid to late teens, but even at his age he's thinking about the deep issues behind all this military history, even if he doesn't have the skills to "discuss" the matter yet.
It might help you, in thinking about this, to peruse the "young adult fiction" section of a library or bookstore. There are Lots of books written for young teens with very heavy concepts embedded in them. Those subjects are no less powerful when written as fiction. If you are thinking the subject matter he's reading is more intense because its non-fiction, that's something to think about right there - why do assume that? If he were reading literature or fantasy, would you be as concerned? I assure you, there are hair raising topics in both genres!
I haven't read that book, but I want to point out that most of "the world" doesn't give kids much of a choice in terms of what they can do or have or be. That steals more than childhood. You aren't throwing these books at your son and telling him he Has to read them - this is his interest. Don't take That away from him or devalue it. It may not look like innocence and wonder in the sense you imagine, but wonder comes in many forms. I just looked up innocence and found this as one definition: Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness. Choosing to read about war for the fascination of it all is ultimately innocent in that sense. He's not learning it for any devious reason - unlike teaching children about war which almost always has underlying agenda.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it. Is that a valid concern from the unschooling point of view, or am I just worrying needlessly?***************************
Kids explore complicated ethical issues at far younger ages than most people realize, because they don't tend to approach those issues in the same ways adults are used to. Specifically, they don't go right to commentary and discussion as a way to process the hows and whys of topics like violence and cruelty - they read and watch and play games and think about all of that on their own. Talking about those issues is something that's more likely to start in the mid to late teens, but even at his age he's thinking about the deep issues behind all this military history, even if he doesn't have the skills to "discuss" the matter yet.
It might help you, in thinking about this, to peruse the "young adult fiction" section of a library or bookstore. There are Lots of books written for young teens with very heavy concepts embedded in them. Those subjects are no less powerful when written as fiction. If you are thinking the subject matter he's reading is more intense because its non-fiction, that's something to think about right there - why do assume that? If he were reading literature or fantasy, would you be as concerned? I assure you, there are hair raising topics in both genres!
> I've read the book, _The Hurried Child_ by David Elkind, now in its 25th anniversary. And he talks about how the world disrespects children and wants them to grow up right away, wants to deprive them of their innocence, their sense of wonder, in short, their childhood. But we want them to enjoy their childhood and youth because these are the foundation of adulthood. And these periods are really such a short time compared to adulthood.**********************************
I haven't read that book, but I want to point out that most of "the world" doesn't give kids much of a choice in terms of what they can do or have or be. That steals more than childhood. You aren't throwing these books at your son and telling him he Has to read them - this is his interest. Don't take That away from him or devalue it. It may not look like innocence and wonder in the sense you imagine, but wonder comes in many forms. I just looked up innocence and found this as one definition: Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness. Choosing to read about war for the fascination of it all is ultimately innocent in that sense. He's not learning it for any devious reason - unlike teaching children about war which almost always has underlying agenda.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/10/2009 4:23 PM, Meredith wrote:
learning more about it.
Maybe you could try to make the case for it and see if you can logically
get yourself from awareness, knowledge, more information, etc., to
desensitizing. At least examine the assumption.
I had other concerns, myself, about too-early exposure to some of the
more horrific things that have happened in the world. But not
desensitizing. Maybe the opposite - a negativity about the world.
-pam
> I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it. Is that a valid concern from the unschooling point of view, or am I just worrying needlessly?I don't get how people think kids get 'desensitized' to violence by
>
learning more about it.
Maybe you could try to make the case for it and see if you can logically
get yourself from awareness, knowledge, more information, etc., to
desensitizing. At least examine the assumption.
I had other concerns, myself, about too-early exposure to some of the
more horrific things that have happened in the world. But not
desensitizing. Maybe the opposite - a negativity about the world.
-pam
[email protected]
> I don't get how people think kids get 'desensitized' to violenceYes, you're right, Pam. Not just desensitization (in the sense that they become so blaze' or jaded by so much exposure to it -- they're so used to it that they don't get shocked anymore when they see some violence -- all because they've had such a steady diet of it through books, films, etc., kwim?), but too-early exposure to the harsh realities of life could also develop fears in a child and a negativity about the world, that the world is a scary place to live in. I agree with you.
> by learning more about it.
> I had other concerns, myself, about too-early exposure to some of the
> more horrific things that have happened in the world. But not
> desensitizing. Maybe the opposite - a negativity about the world.
>
> -pam
And that is also my concern. But ds doesn't seem to be shocked or scared by what the POW's have gone through or some of the torture, etc. (Of course, he doesn't get too much of it -- ie. graphic details -- from the juvenile books, fiction or non-fiction -- at least, I try to make sure of that.) And I'm not about to let him watch "Saving Private Ryan" because he'll have, hopefully, 40 or 50 years of his adulthood, to watch it as much as he wants -- when he's mature of enough to take it -- not during his formative years. And I feel the same way about "The Passion of Christ." I've watched both films, but even as an adult, I still find the violence scary and too painful to watch or listen to (even though the latter, for me, was such a good film -- I didn't care too much for the former).
What's funny is, he doesn't find those things (well, he hasn't watched graphic violence yet, of course) scary at all. But when it comes to masks and scary music, it's a totally different story -- like when we happened to see a video clip of the old b & w '20's film of the "Phantom of the Opera." This happened a few years ago when we attended a Young People's Concert at the Kennedy Center in DC. The conductor wanted to prove how music provides mood and atmosphere by showing a clip of this film while the live orchestra played the scary music. The clip showed the girl suddenly taking off the phantom's mask and revealing his scary, disfigured face underneath, while the music built up to the scary moment. It freaked him out -- and many other kids as well in the theater! For months after, someone always had to go with him upstairs or downstairs at home because he was too scared to go by himself.
He finally got over his fear after about a year. Then we happened to watch the dvd of the "King & I" and same story -- he got scared of the bad guy (can't remember his name) who was wearing, what for him, was a scary mask while scary music (for him it was scary) was playing again. It took quite a while for him to get over that, too, and he had to sleep with us in our room for months on the sleeping bag.
So I guess, people have different fears. Since I don't like violence, I think that my children will react the same way I do. And 2 of them do -- my oldest dd and youngest ds. But not ds 12 (the middle child). He reacts to different things which don't really bother me.
Could it be that the violence does not affect him as much because it's a male thing -- they love guns, war and weaponry and all -- and I'm just needlessly worrying about it? Still, I think that at certain ages, children can only take so much of the violence or harsh realities that have gone on and still go on in the world.
Anyway, that was the point I was trying to make. Sorry to go off-tangent here by throwing in other things in this post. But it's past 11 pm already, and I'm rushing because my husband is waiting for me, wondering what the heck I'm writing about. If anyone can enlighten me about this issue -- ds's fear of masks & scary music and his total non-fear of violence in military history, I would greatly appreciate it.
I'm off to bed now!
Shelley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 10, 2009, at 11:30 PM, <hunnybunnies5@...>
<hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
what you're asking, but in general parenting can be full of those
theories that sound reasonable but have no foundation in reality.
Without data to support it, a theory is fantasy. And then, because a
theory sounds reasonable, parents react to the fantasy as though it
were reality. Leaving kids blinking in confusion ;-)
It's also important to examine what's different about your family and
about others that seem to support a theory. The kids growing up in
ghettos and war zones do often become desensitized to violence. But
two big huge differences are: 1) they don't have a choice whether
they're immersed in the violence and 2) it's a threat to real people
they care about.
Your son is choosing to find out about war. It's an interest. And he
has the distance of time and location to protect those he cares
about. Desensitization is self-preservation. It's how people protect
themselves, how they help themselves not to care so to minimize the
hurt, when they have no control over the situation.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
> Still, I think that at certain ages, children can only take so muchWhile it sounds reasonable, does it actually happen? I know that's
> of the violence or harsh realities that have gone on and still go
> on in the world.
what you're asking, but in general parenting can be full of those
theories that sound reasonable but have no foundation in reality.
Without data to support it, a theory is fantasy. And then, because a
theory sounds reasonable, parents react to the fantasy as though it
were reality. Leaving kids blinking in confusion ;-)
It's also important to examine what's different about your family and
about others that seem to support a theory. The kids growing up in
ghettos and war zones do often become desensitized to violence. But
two big huge differences are: 1) they don't have a choice whether
they're immersed in the violence and 2) it's a threat to real people
they care about.
Your son is choosing to find out about war. It's an interest. And he
has the distance of time and location to protect those he cares
about. Desensitization is self-preservation. It's how people protect
themselves, how they help themselves not to care so to minimize the
hurt, when they have no control over the situation.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tkseiler
> On 4/10/2009 4:23 PM, Meredith wrote:Hi
> > I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it. Is that a valid concern from the unschooling point of view, or am I just worrying needlessly?
> >
We're new here. My son is 6 and we're going to homeschool next year. With that in mind, he's exploring the history of armor and weapons (his idea, not mine). I think it grew out of an interest in guns he picked up at k-garten (one of the many reasons I'm pulling him out of school). While I was initially a little disturbed at his choice of topic, as we read together and talk, I think there is a tremendous opportunity to show that violence is not a laudable thing, nor are wars always justified, interesting though the tools of warfare might be. While he might be too young to "get" that now, I'm hopeful that repeated discussions and research over the years will enlighten him. His becoming desensitized to violence was not something I had even considered. I was more worried about his learning about violence (i.e., from his friends at school) without benefit of research, discussion and alternative viewpoints.
JJ Ross
Our 13-year-old son developed a similarly intense fascination with "military history" on about the same timeline described. A paperback book I found for him that he has LOVED (memorized and makes endless conversation with!) is "Stupid Wars: a Citizen's Guide to Botched Putsches, Failed Coups, Inane Invasions, and Ridiculous Revolutions" by two young male history buffs who were probably just like our sons once upon a time. The life lessons are like "everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten -- they apply far beyond war college. :)
For example, from the book jacket:
* Don't declare war on all your neighbors at the same time.
* Working radios, accurate maps, and weather-appropriate uniforms are big plusses.
* Large amounts of bird poop and very small islands are probably not worth dying for.
* Never invade Russia.
* Seriously. It's a really bad idea.
http://www.amazon.com/Stupid-Wars-Invasions-Ridiculous-Revolutions/dp/0061258474
Let me add that his particular "military history" fascination started with a German -- The Red Baron -- and I couldn't get him interested in flying aces on "our" side, like Eddie Rickenbacher, to save my life. But then on his own through movies like Flyboys (the Lafayette Escadrille) and beautiful coffee table books, also library books even from the adult section <grin> he's connected to everything from Alexander the Great to the Vikings and the American Revolution. He is connecting with his Celtic heritage now, learning Irish step-dancing and to play the great highland bagpipes (which were a military weapon btw, meant to intimidate and unsettle the enemy) and even wearing a kilt:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/young-sons-kilts-arrived-today/
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/unschooling-the-bagpipes-more-than-mere-music-lessons/
So I suggest you get happily on board this interest with him and go for the full ride without worrying about the destination. Have fun rather than worrying and setting limits, or even what I did at first which was trying to expand it but in a narrow, self-serving way, arguing he should prefer MY historical figure over an enemy figure -- I still laugh (ruefully) at myself about that!
JJ Ross
For example, from the book jacket:
* Don't declare war on all your neighbors at the same time.
* Working radios, accurate maps, and weather-appropriate uniforms are big plusses.
* Large amounts of bird poop and very small islands are probably not worth dying for.
* Never invade Russia.
* Seriously. It's a really bad idea.
http://www.amazon.com/Stupid-Wars-Invasions-Ridiculous-Revolutions/dp/0061258474
Let me add that his particular "military history" fascination started with a German -- The Red Baron -- and I couldn't get him interested in flying aces on "our" side, like Eddie Rickenbacher, to save my life. But then on his own through movies like Flyboys (the Lafayette Escadrille) and beautiful coffee table books, also library books even from the adult section <grin> he's connected to everything from Alexander the Great to the Vikings and the American Revolution. He is connecting with his Celtic heritage now, learning Irish step-dancing and to play the great highland bagpipes (which were a military weapon btw, meant to intimidate and unsettle the enemy) and even wearing a kilt:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/young-sons-kilts-arrived-today/
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/unschooling-the-bagpipes-more-than-mere-music-lessons/
So I suggest you get happily on board this interest with him and go for the full ride without worrying about the destination. Have fun rather than worrying and setting limits, or even what I did at first which was trying to expand it but in a narrow, self-serving way, arguing he should prefer MY historical figure over an enemy figure -- I still laugh (ruefully) at myself about that!
JJ Ross
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 4/10/2009 4:23 PM, Meredith wrote:
> > I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it. Is that a valid concern from the unschooling point of view, or am I just worrying needlessly?
> >
>
> I don't get how people think kids get 'desensitized' to violence by
> learning more about it.
>
> Maybe you could try to make the case for it and see if you can logically
> get yourself from awareness, knowledge, more information, etc., to
> desensitizing. At least examine the assumption.
>
> I had other concerns, myself, about too-early exposure to some of the
> more horrific things that have happened in the world. But not
> desensitizing. Maybe the opposite - a negativity about the world.
>
> -pam
>
JJ Ross
Oh dear.
I don't think any of these attitudes and words are useful to unschooling. When a mom is deciding in advance what "enlightenment" a six-year-old should "get" through "repeated discussions and research" it suggests the need for her to concentrate instead on her own "getting" of what real learning through unschooling can be.
For starters, it's not just a superior attitude to the company of schooled children as bad influences.
I don't think any of these attitudes and words are useful to unschooling. When a mom is deciding in advance what "enlightenment" a six-year-old should "get" through "repeated discussions and research" it suggests the need for her to concentrate instead on her own "getting" of what real learning through unschooling can be.
For starters, it's not just a superior attitude to the company of schooled children as bad influences.
--- In [email protected], "tkseiler" <tseiler@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
> We're new here. My son is 6 and we're going to homeschool next year. With that in mind, he's exploring the history of armor and weapons (his idea, not mine). I think it grew out of an interest in guns he picked up at k-garten (one of the many reasons I'm pulling him out of school). While I was initially a little disturbed at his choice of topic, as we read together and talk, I think there is a tremendous opportunity to show that violence is not a laudable thing, nor are wars always justified, interesting though the tools of warfare might be. While he might be too young to "get" that now, I'm hopeful that repeated discussions and research over the years will enlighten him. His becoming desensitized to violence was not something I had even considered. I was more worried about his learning about violence (i.e., from his friends at school) without benefit of research, discussion and alternative viewpoints.
>
Ren Allen
~~While he might be too young to "get" that now, I'm hopeful that repeated discussions and research over the years will enlighten him.~~
Don't try to "enlighten" him or help him "get" anything. Those are your issues and while sharing viewpoints is part of family life, it doesn't mean your viewpoints are more enlightened than his.
BE with him in this interest. Foster it, encourage it, take joy in it, learn from him and with him!!
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Don't try to "enlighten" him or help him "get" anything. Those are your issues and while sharing viewpoints is part of family life, it doesn't mean your viewpoints are more enlightened than his.
BE with him in this interest. Foster it, encourage it, take joy in it, learn from him and with him!!
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/10/2009 8:30 PM, hunnybunnies5@... wrote:
really horrific things, to the above -- "And I'm not about to let him
watch...".
Just wanted to point out that not letting them watch a movie that they
want to watch was not what I meant. When I said I have concerns, it
meant that if they wanted to watch a movie like that I would be right
there, watching it with them, paying attention to their reaction, pause
button ready, and me ready to help them process it.
Forbidding something a child is interested in - that is
counterproductive. mainly because it is not supportive of their
interests and they'll not feel supported in their interests. That will
interfere with the kind of trusting relationship unschooling requires
between parents and children.
-pam
> And I'm not about to let him watchYou jumped from me saying I had concerns about too much exposure to the
really horrific things, to the above -- "And I'm not about to let him
watch...".
Just wanted to point out that not letting them watch a movie that they
want to watch was not what I meant. When I said I have concerns, it
meant that if they wanted to watch a movie like that I would be right
there, watching it with them, paying attention to their reaction, pause
button ready, and me ready to help them process it.
Forbidding something a child is interested in - that is
counterproductive. mainly because it is not supportive of their
interests and they'll not feel supported in their interests. That will
interfere with the kind of trusting relationship unschooling requires
between parents and children.
-pam
JJ Ross
Hmmm, thinking more on this thread I remembered how much of the Narnia Chronicles involve military strategy and sensibility. When I read them myself as a little girl loving magic and books about schoolchildren but not the military at all, I nevertheless was quite engaged by the contrast between the violence and killing on one side versus the other, when used offensively versus defensively and for deeper magic versus self-aggrandizement, etc. I think children intuitively appreciate that there is a difference between fighting to protect your friends and family against evil even though you hate violence, and the wicked kind of warfare because one is sociopathic . . .
Anyway, I've been reading a new literary critique of Narnia as related to the real life education of CS Lewis, and the author (Salon dot com's Laura Miller) had a young girl's private experience with the books very much like mine. She cared about the magic, not the military. Yet she remembers after all these decades being fascinated by solemn, practical adventure-ready "military" advice that really is good life advice in any world, for example Aslan's reminder to the children about always cleaning one's sword, or how they learn to carry a bit of meat wrapped in leaves on missions because when one really needs food, whatever it is will taste wonderful . . .
http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/12/06/laura_miller/index1.html
A final thought -- Harry Potter is chock full of world war violent warfare with these same moral lessons, more modern than my mom memories. :)
Anyway, I've been reading a new literary critique of Narnia as related to the real life education of CS Lewis, and the author (Salon dot com's Laura Miller) had a young girl's private experience with the books very much like mine. She cared about the magic, not the military. Yet she remembers after all these decades being fascinated by solemn, practical adventure-ready "military" advice that really is good life advice in any world, for example Aslan's reminder to the children about always cleaning one's sword, or how they learn to carry a bit of meat wrapped in leaves on missions because when one really needs food, whatever it is will taste wonderful . . .
http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/12/06/laura_miller/index1.html
A final thought -- Harry Potter is chock full of world war violent warfare with these same moral lessons, more modern than my mom memories. :)
--- In [email protected], "JJ Ross" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
> Our 13-year-old son developed a similarly intense fascination with "military history" on about the same timeline described. A paperback book I found for him that he has LOVED (memorized and makes endless conversation with!) is "Stupid Wars: a Citizen's Guide to Botched Putsches, Failed Coups, Inane Invasions, and Ridiculous Revolutions" by two young male history buffs who were probably just like our sons once upon a time. The life lessons are like "everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten -- they apply far beyond war college. :)
>
> For example, from the book jacket:
>
> * Don't declare war on all your neighbors at the same time.
> * Working radios, accurate maps, and weather-appropriate uniforms are big plusses.
> * Large amounts of bird poop and very small islands are probably not worth dying for.
> * Never invade Russia.
> * Seriously. It's a really bad idea.
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Stupid-Wars-Invasions-Ridiculous-Revolutions/dp/0061258474
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/10/2009 4:23 PM, Meredith wrote:
> > > I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it. Is that a valid concern from the unschooling point of view, or am I just worrying needlessly?
> > >
>
missalexmissalex
Jewish kids in Hebrew school regularly learn about the Holocaust by around 12 or 13. We had a survivor come to talk to us. Nobody I know was traumatized by this, and nobody I know complains about it as it having been messed up as an adult.
I'm sure you guys are on it already, but The Boy in Striped Pajamas was an AWESOME book.
Alex
mama to Katya, 22 mos
I'm sure you guys are on it already, but The Boy in Striped Pajamas was an AWESOME book.
> Because I'm concerned that at 12 years old (or younger -- when he started this interest in military history 2 or 3 years ago), he is learning more about violence and mature subjects (like the Holocaust) at such a young age AND might become desensitized to it.Best-
Alex
mama to Katya, 22 mos
Ren Allen
~~Could it be that the violence does not affect him as much because it's a male thing -- they love guns, war and weaponry and all -- and I'm just needlessly worrying about it?~~
I think it's a personality thing, perhaps boys/men are genetically wired to handle it better or perhaps it is learned from societal messages. Either way, personality/genetics plays a huge part in our preferences and amount of sensitivity to various kinds of stimulation.
I prefer shoot-em-up/drama/violence over a romantic comedy ANY day. I like guns. I like archery. I'm drawn to the idea of taking karate or kung fu. I used to body build and do triathlon.
I also LOVE ballet and plan to take classes soon, enjoy opera and good wine and bird watching. I work in the fashion industry and I love all things related to self-sufficiency (gardening, raising bees, collecting rain water, using non-electric devices etc..)
I think we try to understand things by putting them in boxes too much. If someone is drawn to war and weaponry they must be drawn to violence or end up desensitized, right? It's just not true though. Humans are much more complicated than all that. Interests can seem to be connected or they can seem to be all over the map.
~~Still, I think that at certain ages, children can only take so much of the violence or harsh realities that have gone on and still go on in the world.~~
But what is that age? It's different for everyone. Some people NEED to examine the dark side of life more than others. Harsh realities can lead to great compassion too. There is no magic age when a person can handle certain information, it's all about walking the path WITH our children and trusting them to learn from all of it, even if they learn they aren't ready to handle something they thought they could.
If it makes you feel any better, my 19 y.o. became fascinated with the civil war when he was around 10 or 11. That fascination was fed with books and re-enactments and food from the era and the History channel. He became interested in WW1 and 2, then weaponry up to current times. He could tell you how many rounds an AK-47 or a .50 cal or even different kinds of tanks could fire per minute. He can cite the technological advances in warfare and weaponry. He played Grand Theft Auto and all sorts of VERY violent video games.
He also protested the Iraq war when he was 13, day after day in downtown Pensacola where the mood was decidedly pro-war. He got flipped off by cops, watched altercations with pro-war, right-wing Christians and passionately protested the war each and every day in spite of all that. He is compassionate towards animals and children...can't stand to see a parent be mean to a child. He's gentle and thoughtful and very sweet. If being interested in wars and violent video games can turn you into a smart-ass with a warped sense of humor, then ok.:) But they don't desensitize you to violence, I can attest to that.
As fascinated as he is by weaponry and wars, he is equally as passionate about finding peaceful solutions and treating people with kindness.
Don't fear your child's interests. Trust that it will lead to exactly what HE needs for his journey. Adults rarely trusted most of my interests and I still made a career out of them. It just took me longer to trust my own passions....I don't want to create mistrust in my own children. That's all it does when we don't trust their interests or forbid certain things....creates mistrust. That isn't what unschooling is about.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I think it's a personality thing, perhaps boys/men are genetically wired to handle it better or perhaps it is learned from societal messages. Either way, personality/genetics plays a huge part in our preferences and amount of sensitivity to various kinds of stimulation.
I prefer shoot-em-up/drama/violence over a romantic comedy ANY day. I like guns. I like archery. I'm drawn to the idea of taking karate or kung fu. I used to body build and do triathlon.
I also LOVE ballet and plan to take classes soon, enjoy opera and good wine and bird watching. I work in the fashion industry and I love all things related to self-sufficiency (gardening, raising bees, collecting rain water, using non-electric devices etc..)
I think we try to understand things by putting them in boxes too much. If someone is drawn to war and weaponry they must be drawn to violence or end up desensitized, right? It's just not true though. Humans are much more complicated than all that. Interests can seem to be connected or they can seem to be all over the map.
~~Still, I think that at certain ages, children can only take so much of the violence or harsh realities that have gone on and still go on in the world.~~
But what is that age? It's different for everyone. Some people NEED to examine the dark side of life more than others. Harsh realities can lead to great compassion too. There is no magic age when a person can handle certain information, it's all about walking the path WITH our children and trusting them to learn from all of it, even if they learn they aren't ready to handle something they thought they could.
If it makes you feel any better, my 19 y.o. became fascinated with the civil war when he was around 10 or 11. That fascination was fed with books and re-enactments and food from the era and the History channel. He became interested in WW1 and 2, then weaponry up to current times. He could tell you how many rounds an AK-47 or a .50 cal or even different kinds of tanks could fire per minute. He can cite the technological advances in warfare and weaponry. He played Grand Theft Auto and all sorts of VERY violent video games.
He also protested the Iraq war when he was 13, day after day in downtown Pensacola where the mood was decidedly pro-war. He got flipped off by cops, watched altercations with pro-war, right-wing Christians and passionately protested the war each and every day in spite of all that. He is compassionate towards animals and children...can't stand to see a parent be mean to a child. He's gentle and thoughtful and very sweet. If being interested in wars and violent video games can turn you into a smart-ass with a warped sense of humor, then ok.:) But they don't desensitize you to violence, I can attest to that.
As fascinated as he is by weaponry and wars, he is equally as passionate about finding peaceful solutions and treating people with kindness.
Don't fear your child's interests. Trust that it will lead to exactly what HE needs for his journey. Adults rarely trusted most of my interests and I still made a career out of them. It just took me longer to trust my own passions....I don't want to create mistrust in my own children. That's all it does when we don't trust their interests or forbid certain things....creates mistrust. That isn't what unschooling is about.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
tkseiler
--- In [email protected], "JJ Ross" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>So, am I to take it that "research" and "discussion" are bad words for unschoolers? I guess my take on the words are a little different. I view research as exploration. It's not confined to books (I am not thinking "research paper" here). Is that a bad thing? It doesn't necessarily mean I am guiding everything. And I cannot see where discussion is not "useful". Maybe you could explain that to me. Do you not talk about your children's learning at all? And, sorry, I do hope that my son does not end up thinking that violence is something to glory in; I do hope that he eventually discovers that wars are started for many different reasons and that they are not always justified. I did not say this has to happen when he is 6 years old.
> Oh dear.
> I don't think any of these attitudes and words are useful to unschooling. When a mom is deciding in advance what "enlightenment" a six-year-old should "get" through "repeated discussions and research" it suggests the need for her to concentrate instead on her own "getting" of what real learning through unschooling can be.
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
---Meredith
> On 4/10/2009 4:23 PM, Meredith wrote:Just clarifying the quotation... that's me quoting the OP, not my words.
> > I'm concerned that at 12 years old...
---Meredith
Ren Allen
~~ So, am I to take it that "research" and "discussion" are bad words for unschoolers?~~
How did you come to that conclusion? Research and discussion are part of life and very valuable. What you said was different. You described using discussion repeatedly to help him "get" something. You also talked about "enlightenment" as though his ideas weren't enlightened and yours were.
~~I guess my take on the words are a little different. I view research as exploration.~~
Exploration is fabulous and important. Exploration is different than judgement. Exploration with open minds and the ability to be curious is not trying to "enlighten" or help someone "get" anything!
~~ And, sorry, I do hope that my son does not end up thinking that violence is something to glory in; I do hope that he eventually discovers that wars are started for many different reasons and that they are not always justified.~~
But then you've already decided how HE should feel about it. Those are your feelings and morals. Let him explore what his are, with you alongside him sharing your ideas without judgment. Since when did a fascination in wars equal something to "glory in"? That doesn't show much trust in his passion.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
How did you come to that conclusion? Research and discussion are part of life and very valuable. What you said was different. You described using discussion repeatedly to help him "get" something. You also talked about "enlightenment" as though his ideas weren't enlightened and yours were.
~~I guess my take on the words are a little different. I view research as exploration.~~
Exploration is fabulous and important. Exploration is different than judgement. Exploration with open minds and the ability to be curious is not trying to "enlighten" or help someone "get" anything!
~~ And, sorry, I do hope that my son does not end up thinking that violence is something to glory in; I do hope that he eventually discovers that wars are started for many different reasons and that they are not always justified.~~
But then you've already decided how HE should feel about it. Those are your feelings and morals. Let him explore what his are, with you alongside him sharing your ideas without judgment. Since when did a fascination in wars equal something to "glory in"? That doesn't show much trust in his passion.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Meredith
--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
I'm nodding my head in agreement and cringing at the same time. I do understand wanting to share my own enthusiasm and joy with the people I love - it Is natural! At the same time, I've been the little kid with my mouth and eyes squeezed tight shut while someone coaxed me to "just try it... just one bite" <deep shudder>.
How children react to being coaxed to do things depends of specifics of personality and development. Many children are sensitive to smells and textures - some go in and out of phases of sensitivity, others are much more sensitive for longer periods of time. Mo's on the sensitive side. Right now she's going through a more intense stage where she doesn't even want to look at foods she doesn't like while she eats.
Ray always seemed sanguine about trying foods when he was younger - he had such an impressive appetite he'd eat anything, it seemed. Now, though, he's become more conservative about what he eats and eschews a lot of foods he used to eat without comment.
A cousin of mine used to have a strong preference for mild, light colored foods - she still does. For years she was coaxed, and then struggled on her own, to eat other things. Recently, after getting out of prescription drug rehab, she's started experimenting with Only eating the foods she finds appealing. She says she feels better for it - more in control of her life and body.
I guess what I'm saying is look at reactions and be as gentle as you possibly can. Trying new things is something that Might happen naturally with time - even my oh-so-sensitive 7yo sometimes tries new foods without the least prompting at all. But trying new things doesn't guarantee anything at all, not liking them, or becoming confident in trying new things.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> Wow! So it's OK if we just let them be, if we just let them stick to one thing as long as they want and not try to help them *broaden their horizons*? Because when I'm enjoying something so much (like creme brulee' or chocolate mousse or whatever), I just want to share the joy that I'm experiencing with my kids. Isn't that natural?************************
I'm nodding my head in agreement and cringing at the same time. I do understand wanting to share my own enthusiasm and joy with the people I love - it Is natural! At the same time, I've been the little kid with my mouth and eyes squeezed tight shut while someone coaxed me to "just try it... just one bite" <deep shudder>.
How children react to being coaxed to do things depends of specifics of personality and development. Many children are sensitive to smells and textures - some go in and out of phases of sensitivity, others are much more sensitive for longer periods of time. Mo's on the sensitive side. Right now she's going through a more intense stage where she doesn't even want to look at foods she doesn't like while she eats.
Ray always seemed sanguine about trying foods when he was younger - he had such an impressive appetite he'd eat anything, it seemed. Now, though, he's become more conservative about what he eats and eschews a lot of foods he used to eat without comment.
A cousin of mine used to have a strong preference for mild, light colored foods - she still does. For years she was coaxed, and then struggled on her own, to eat other things. Recently, after getting out of prescription drug rehab, she's started experimenting with Only eating the foods she finds appealing. She says she feels better for it - more in control of her life and body.
I guess what I'm saying is look at reactions and be as gentle as you possibly can. Trying new things is something that Might happen naturally with time - even my oh-so-sensitive 7yo sometimes tries new foods without the least prompting at all. But trying new things doesn't guarantee anything at all, not liking them, or becoming confident in trying new things.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
one thing as long as they want and not try to help them *broaden their
horizons*? Because when I'm enjoying something so much (like creme
brulee' or chocolate mousse or whatever), I just want to share the joy
that I'm experiencing with my kids. Isn't that natural?
In order to be in a position to broaden someone's horizons you have to be trusted. Trust comes from respecting their no. If you push beyond the no repeatedly to get them to try something you enjoy, just one bite, than you are consistly eroding any trust they may have. When David and I first got together I was really adamant about not trying new foods. I would get really upset if he tried to get me to try something that I absolutely didn't want to try. A hangover from a childhood of having to try things, having to eat more than one bite. If pushed I couldn't actually taste the food. My desire not to try would push over into revulsion and I would gag over whatever it was. David quickly stopped asking me to try things. When he cooked he fixed lots of yummy food, keeping out all the things I didn't like. Over time I've grown to trust his palate and his judgement of mine. I now will try most foods he asks me to taste. And usually I enjoy it.
Schuyler
________________________________
************************
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>>Wow! So it's OK if we just let them be, if we just let them stick to
one thing as long as they want and not try to help them *broaden their
horizons*? Because when I'm enjoying something so much (like creme
brulee' or chocolate mousse or whatever), I just want to share the joy
that I'm experiencing with my kids. Isn't that natural?
In order to be in a position to broaden someone's horizons you have to be trusted. Trust comes from respecting their no. If you push beyond the no repeatedly to get them to try something you enjoy, just one bite, than you are consistly eroding any trust they may have. When David and I first got together I was really adamant about not trying new foods. I would get really upset if he tried to get me to try something that I absolutely didn't want to try. A hangover from a childhood of having to try things, having to eat more than one bite. If pushed I couldn't actually taste the food. My desire not to try would push over into revulsion and I would gag over whatever it was. David quickly stopped asking me to try things. When he cooked he fixed lots of yummy food, keeping out all the things I didn't like. Over time I've grown to trust his palate and his judgement of mine. I now will try most foods he asks me to taste. And usually I enjoy it.
Schuyler
________________________________
************************
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Meredith
--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
This is an important observation to keep in mind! To some extent it doesn't Matter why he's different as long as you can remember that he's not going to react the ways you do. That, in and of itself, is perfectly normal. We don't always understand all our children. But that very fact is an enormous gift. Your son is showing you a whole different way of looking at the world! As challenging as that can be (stretching Your comfort zone) its also utterly marvelous. Savor the opportunities he offers you to see the world through another lens.
I do think you're worrying needlessly - worse, in some ways, you're imposing your own ideas of violence on his worldview rather than looking at the idea of violence through his. Masks are scary? Accept that. Look at shows and movies and books for the kinds of things that are going to bother him. Why do they bother him? Masks show a distortion of human features. That's a pretty creepy idea if you think about it.
Preview movies for him with an ear to the soundtrack, if that bothers him. Give him the remote control so he can mute things that start to stress him out - put the whole thing on subtitles if you have to. Many kids are freaked out by scary music. Its there to Be Scary! For that matter, the sounds in a movie are often calculated to create a certain mood. I've seen "commentaries" of movies where the director admits to screening the movie with different music or sound fx to get some scenes past the censors.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> So I guess, people have different fears. Since I don't like violence, I think that my children will react the same way I do. And 2 of them do -- my oldest dd and youngest ds. But not ds 12 (the middle child). He reacts to different things which don't really bother me.************************
This is an important observation to keep in mind! To some extent it doesn't Matter why he's different as long as you can remember that he's not going to react the ways you do. That, in and of itself, is perfectly normal. We don't always understand all our children. But that very fact is an enormous gift. Your son is showing you a whole different way of looking at the world! As challenging as that can be (stretching Your comfort zone) its also utterly marvelous. Savor the opportunities he offers you to see the world through another lens.
> Could it be that the violence does not affect him as much because it's a male thing -- they love guns, war and weaponry and all -- and I'm just needlessly worrying about it? Still, I think that at certain ages, children can only take so much of the violence or harsh realities that have gone on and still go on in the world.*******************************
I do think you're worrying needlessly - worse, in some ways, you're imposing your own ideas of violence on his worldview rather than looking at the idea of violence through his. Masks are scary? Accept that. Look at shows and movies and books for the kinds of things that are going to bother him. Why do they bother him? Masks show a distortion of human features. That's a pretty creepy idea if you think about it.
Preview movies for him with an ear to the soundtrack, if that bothers him. Give him the remote control so he can mute things that start to stress him out - put the whole thing on subtitles if you have to. Many kids are freaked out by scary music. Its there to Be Scary! For that matter, the sounds in a movie are often calculated to create a certain mood. I've seen "commentaries" of movies where the director admits to screening the movie with different music or sound fx to get some scenes past the censors.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Tammy Curry
Food tastes very from person to person. Think of this way as an adult would anyone make you take a bite of something that looked icky? Somethings look icky to kids. I know with my son when were trying to get him to eat his veggies at dinner it was setting up for a meltdown. Then we thought about it, when we had a garden he would eat all the veggies fresh and raw from the vine. So he doesn't like cooked veggies. When we asked him why he doesn't like "smushy" things. He likes his veggies crunchy and cold, so raw it is. We have also gone from set meal times to having food available and being offered when we notice signs of hunger. To be honest we are a family of grazers so we just set food up that way. More so during the warm weather, none of us get very hungry when we get hot. So I keep monkey platters available to everyone. I add something new from time to time and everyone will just grab it if they feel like it. We try to offer but if we get a no we back
off, the meltdowns are just not worth it. Most recently sunflower seeds have been the new food. My son calls them bird seeds and thinks it is neat that he is eating bird food. It just tickles him to death. 3 months ago he thought his parents had grown a third eye by offering them to him. It doesn't hurt to offer and say you think this is really great and be enthusiastic about anything, food, a book, moive, etc. Kids are individuals with their own dislikes and likes just as we grown ups are. When they are ready they will try something new but there is comfort in the status quo as well.
I love watching my kids when they do decide to "broaden their horizons". It is so much more enjoyable when they make these discoveries on their own. And we have learned not to say, "Now see, I told you so." or some variation of that. We may have told them or showed them but until they are ready for a new adventure they won't enjoy it.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
off, the meltdowns are just not worth it. Most recently sunflower seeds have been the new food. My son calls them bird seeds and thinks it is neat that he is eating bird food. It just tickles him to death. 3 months ago he thought his parents had grown a third eye by offering them to him. It doesn't hurt to offer and say you think this is really great and be enthusiastic about anything, food, a book, moive, etc. Kids are individuals with their own dislikes and likes just as we grown ups are. When they are ready they will try something new but there is comfort in the status quo as well.
I love watching my kids when they do decide to "broaden their horizons". It is so much more enjoyable when they make these discoveries on their own. And we have learned not to say, "Now see, I told you so." or some variation of that. We may have told them or showed them but until they are ready for a new adventure they won't enjoy it.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tkseiler
> But then you've already decided how HE should feel about it. Those are your feelings and morals. Let him explore what his are, with you alongside him sharing your ideas without judgment. Since when did a fascination in wars equal something to "glory in"? That doesn't show much trust in his passion.Not necessarily.
>
> Ren
But in discussing anything, one will have opinions, and one's feelings and morals become apparent, yes? Just look at this list. In any discussion, I'm going to say what I feel about the issue. I'm not saying that my son cannot have opinions based on what he learns, nor does my stating what my beliefs are necessarily constitute judgment of him or anyone else. And I would be the last person to say that fascination with war (which I have, BTW) is the same as thinking it is always glorious; I certainly don't have any problem with his exploring this issue and I don't think I lack a trust in his passion for it. The original question someone posted was a worry about violence and desensitization to it, not about warfare per se.
Ren Allen
~~But in discussing anything, one will have opinions, and one's feelings and morals become apparent, yes?~~
Of course. That's healthy and normal. When someone talks about enlightening another human or helping them "get" it, that's when I question the kind of discussion that is being held and whether it is simply a sharing, or a manipulation.
If there is trust in another person's interests, there is no need to "enlighten" them or help them "get" anything. Just two people sharing ideas and exploring them together. Can you see the difference?
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Of course. That's healthy and normal. When someone talks about enlightening another human or helping them "get" it, that's when I question the kind of discussion that is being held and whether it is simply a sharing, or a manipulation.
If there is trust in another person's interests, there is no need to "enlighten" them or help them "get" anything. Just two people sharing ideas and exploring them together. Can you see the difference?
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Debra Rossing
> A cousin of mine used to have a strong preference for mild, lightcolored foods - she still does
So does the character of Larry Fleinhart (sp?) on Numb3rs - it was a
recurring thing the first few seasons that he only ate 'white food' (I
think pancakes were okay, milk, potatoes, rice, maybe mild white fish
like cod, not sure about chicken...) And, when they had a party of some
sort to honor him, they only served the foods he would eat. It was/is
totally accepted as just part of who he is. One of many reasons we like
the show.
Deb R
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Robin Bentley
> So does the character of Larry Fleinhart (sp?) on Numb3rs - it was aMy brother-in-law's plate at Christmas is bland white meat turkey,
> recurring thing the first few seasons that he only ate 'white food' (I
> think pancakes were okay, milk, potatoes, rice, maybe mild white fish
> like cod, not sure about chicken...)
> And, when they had a party of some
> sort to honor him, they only served the foods he would eat. It was/is
> totally accepted as just part of who he is. One of many reasons we
> like
> the show.
mashed potatoes, white corn, and a white bread bun. The family kids
him a bit now and again, but we know that's what he likes, so that's
what is always available. He's branched out some to other foods, most
notably Mexican (which isn't white, but can often be just various
shades of brown) and loves roasted garlic (white, again, but not
bland). He's over 40 and it's just fine.
Robin B.
The Coffee Goddess
My MIL is only a white-food eater as well :) She's not horribly healthy, but has lived long enough to have grandchildren and soon great-grandchildren, so obviously no veggies and lack of color will not kill you early ;) (also cigarettes and diet pepsi!)
My 11 yo son, who is my more selective eater, has really expanded his palate in the past year, trying quite a few things that he never would have tried before. Recently he ate pizza for the first time, and has decided it's quite good!
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My 11 yo son, who is my more selective eater, has really expanded his palate in the past year, trying quite a few things that he never would have tried before. Recently he ate pizza for the first time, and has decided it's quite good!
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tkseiler
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> If there is trust in another person's interests, there is no need to "enlighten" them or help them "get" anything. Just two people sharing ideas and exploring them together. Can you see the difference?Yes. It just requires a change in the way I think, which is always hard LOL. Thanks for the discussion.
>
> Ren
Debra Rossing
I've got a really nice Tuscan white bean salad recipe - white beans,
chopped bell peppers, chopped cucumber, small tomatoes (or chopped
tomato) with a cider vinegar, oil, garlic, "Italian" seasoning dressing
- colorful but mostly white too (just depends on how much of the veggies
you put in - and you could probably use other veggies as well)
Deb R
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chopped bell peppers, chopped cucumber, small tomatoes (or chopped
tomato) with a cider vinegar, oil, garlic, "Italian" seasoning dressing
- colorful but mostly white too (just depends on how much of the veggies
you put in - and you could probably use other veggies as well)
Deb R
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