Just when I thought......
Syndi
Hi all,
Ok, Just when I thought I had this all figured out and was secure
in what we are doing as far as radical unschooling I find myself very
insecure and now, after reading a post from the other unschooling
list mentioned, its even worse!
1st off is the TV. I don't monitor it at all, but we don't have
cable so its not like there is too much my boyz can't watch. BUT,
the thing is on constantly. Its as if my oldest cannot funtion
without hearing or seeing it! Even if it is to put on a pair of
shoes, he goes right to the tv to sit down and do it. Am I don't
wrong leaving it on all the time? Myself, I like to listen to it, so
I have been assuming that is what my kids are doing too. I guess I
am just second guessing myself again.
I need to get back to reading this list everyday, when I do, It is
so much easier to keep things in perspective!
Ok, 2nd, on the other list, which I found to have some great things
to read, someone mentioned that she doesn't just leave her kids to
themselves. But my boys seem to be so busy during the day, that they
usually don't have time for mom! So I've just been letting them do
their thing, as this is when they seem their happiest and most
content. The youngest loves to read before bed, but so far that is
ALL he wants to do with mom. The comment I read from that list that
got me thinking was, she doesn't just let the kids play vidio games
and watch tv and play all day. OH my , this is exactly what my kids
are doing!
I do take them to the library , when I can get them to, never
forcing it. I let them pick out their own books, but don't stress
over weather or not they read them. We go to the park, weather and
asthma permitting, they go outdoors, and I do "strew" things about,
but most times its ignored.
Should I be doing anything any different? I think my own schooling
is trying to creep back into my head, I don't know, I just all the
sudden have all these doubts!
Thanks for listening
syndi
Ok, Just when I thought I had this all figured out and was secure
in what we are doing as far as radical unschooling I find myself very
insecure and now, after reading a post from the other unschooling
list mentioned, its even worse!
1st off is the TV. I don't monitor it at all, but we don't have
cable so its not like there is too much my boyz can't watch. BUT,
the thing is on constantly. Its as if my oldest cannot funtion
without hearing or seeing it! Even if it is to put on a pair of
shoes, he goes right to the tv to sit down and do it. Am I don't
wrong leaving it on all the time? Myself, I like to listen to it, so
I have been assuming that is what my kids are doing too. I guess I
am just second guessing myself again.
I need to get back to reading this list everyday, when I do, It is
so much easier to keep things in perspective!
Ok, 2nd, on the other list, which I found to have some great things
to read, someone mentioned that she doesn't just leave her kids to
themselves. But my boys seem to be so busy during the day, that they
usually don't have time for mom! So I've just been letting them do
their thing, as this is when they seem their happiest and most
content. The youngest loves to read before bed, but so far that is
ALL he wants to do with mom. The comment I read from that list that
got me thinking was, she doesn't just let the kids play vidio games
and watch tv and play all day. OH my , this is exactly what my kids
are doing!
I do take them to the library , when I can get them to, never
forcing it. I let them pick out their own books, but don't stress
over weather or not they read them. We go to the park, weather and
asthma permitting, they go outdoors, and I do "strew" things about,
but most times its ignored.
Should I be doing anything any different? I think my own schooling
is trying to creep back into my head, I don't know, I just all the
sudden have all these doubts!
Thanks for listening
syndi
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/2004 6:06:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
justlikemama@... writes:
Should I be doing anything any different? I think my own schooling
is trying to creep back into my head, I don't know, I just all the
sudden have all these doubts!<<<<
When I hear people talking about doubts, it is usually, like you suggested,
that they are listening to other people instead of their children. I
encourage them to arm themselves with good information and find out why they are
having the doubts exactly. What are they afraid of?
Are you afraid that these other children, with mom's that won't let them
watch TV all day, will be ahead of your children, happier than your children,
more connected to family than your children? What is it exactly? Once you
define the origin of your fear it is easier to regroup. Try getting rid of all
that self-talk going on in your head that you learned from society, from your
family or from years of schooling. Start replacing that with things like
"my children are exactly where they need to be in life" "they are happy"
"there is no one to be behind and no one to catch up to, they are on their own
path"
You cannot compare your children to anyone else's. They are as connected to
you as they need to be. If you are open and available, they know that.
Maybe that is why they are so secure in not being physically doing things with
you all day, they know you are there when they need or want you. They are
spiritually connected.
Sometimes I will go up to my boys, who sound a lot like yours in that they
are busy with their own interests, and say that I just need a hug. Or I will
pass by and whisper in their ear "I love you". We also do not need to be
doing things with each other all day. They also see me involved with my
interests as well.
Reread some of you favorite unschooling books, one of mine that I reread is
Valerie Fitzenreiter's The Unprocessed Child. Read at
_http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling_ (http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling)
Read real accounts of real Unschoolers. Information is the key. Good
information from Unschoolers that have been unschooling for years.
Anyway this is too long for a post from me,
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
justlikemama@... writes:
Should I be doing anything any different? I think my own schooling
is trying to creep back into my head, I don't know, I just all the
sudden have all these doubts!<<<<
When I hear people talking about doubts, it is usually, like you suggested,
that they are listening to other people instead of their children. I
encourage them to arm themselves with good information and find out why they are
having the doubts exactly. What are they afraid of?
Are you afraid that these other children, with mom's that won't let them
watch TV all day, will be ahead of your children, happier than your children,
more connected to family than your children? What is it exactly? Once you
define the origin of your fear it is easier to regroup. Try getting rid of all
that self-talk going on in your head that you learned from society, from your
family or from years of schooling. Start replacing that with things like
"my children are exactly where they need to be in life" "they are happy"
"there is no one to be behind and no one to catch up to, they are on their own
path"
You cannot compare your children to anyone else's. They are as connected to
you as they need to be. If you are open and available, they know that.
Maybe that is why they are so secure in not being physically doing things with
you all day, they know you are there when they need or want you. They are
spiritually connected.
Sometimes I will go up to my boys, who sound a lot like yours in that they
are busy with their own interests, and say that I just need a hug. Or I will
pass by and whisper in their ear "I love you". We also do not need to be
doing things with each other all day. They also see me involved with my
interests as well.
Reread some of you favorite unschooling books, one of mine that I reread is
Valerie Fitzenreiter's The Unprocessed Child. Read at
_http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling_ (http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling)
Read real accounts of real Unschoolers. Information is the key. Good
information from Unschoolers that have been unschooling for years.
Anyway this is too long for a post from me,
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< Ok, Just when I thought I had this all figured out and was secure
in what we are doing as far as radical unschooling I find myself very
insecure and now, after reading a post from the other unschooling
list mentioned, its even worse!>>>>
Yikes! The idea on the Unschooling lists is to make people feel better about
Unschooling, not insecure!
<<<< I need to get back to reading this list everyday, when I do, It is
so much easier to keep things in perspective!>>>>
I find this exact phenomenon.
<<< Ok, 2nd, on the other list, which I found to have some great things
to read, someone mentioned that she doesn't just leave her kids to
themselves. But my boys seem to be so busy during the day, that they
usually don't have time for mom! >>>>
Lot's of "I's" in the post. How old are your kids? How long have you been
Unschooling? Are they happy, busy, engaged, open, communicative,
interesting, healthy, trustworthy and enjoying life? If they are perhaps you
are doing something right.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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in what we are doing as far as radical unschooling I find myself very
insecure and now, after reading a post from the other unschooling
list mentioned, its even worse!>>>>
Yikes! The idea on the Unschooling lists is to make people feel better about
Unschooling, not insecure!
<<<< I need to get back to reading this list everyday, when I do, It is
so much easier to keep things in perspective!>>>>
I find this exact phenomenon.
<<< Ok, 2nd, on the other list, which I found to have some great things
to read, someone mentioned that she doesn't just leave her kids to
themselves. But my boys seem to be so busy during the day, that they
usually don't have time for mom! >>>>
Lot's of "I's" in the post. How old are your kids? How long have you been
Unschooling? Are they happy, busy, engaged, open, communicative,
interesting, healthy, trustworthy and enjoying life? If they are perhaps you
are doing something right.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004
Syndi
I don't THINK I am comparing my kids to anyone else's. when I do I
ALWAYS find out how wonderful this lifestyle has come to be. When I
worked before and the oldest was in school, most days I couldn't wait
to get them to bed, or out the door, or to gr'mas. Now, its so much
different, I love being around them, and having them home, and
sending them to gr'mas is not top priority anymore!
I guess what I fear would be the future. I just finished the
Unprocessed Child (WONDERFUL BOOK!) I might have to get it out and
read it again!
Now sitting here thinking about all this I realize I am in fact
comparing my youngest to what the rest of the kids in school are
doing. He has no interest in any of it, so like I said, we just read
for now. (and read, and read, and READ!) But it creeps in, they are
doing math, on worksheets, mine is doing math in his head, without
instruction. Oh i could go on and on. But you see what I mean and
yes, i can see exactly what you are talking about. They are where
they need to be.
I had to throw in the math part for those that are considering or
are new to unschooling. My youngest is 6 and it was totally amazing
to me that he was adding and subtracting without doing worksheet
after worksheet or any instruction. In fact, it was by accident that
I found out he was capable of this. Not to mention his vocabulary.
Must be all the tv, new words all the time popping out of his little
head! NOT that I'm comparing him to the kids in school <g>
Ok, gotta get back on track and back to reading. Thank you both
for the encouragment.
syndi
ALWAYS find out how wonderful this lifestyle has come to be. When I
worked before and the oldest was in school, most days I couldn't wait
to get them to bed, or out the door, or to gr'mas. Now, its so much
different, I love being around them, and having them home, and
sending them to gr'mas is not top priority anymore!
I guess what I fear would be the future. I just finished the
Unprocessed Child (WONDERFUL BOOK!) I might have to get it out and
read it again!
Now sitting here thinking about all this I realize I am in fact
comparing my youngest to what the rest of the kids in school are
doing. He has no interest in any of it, so like I said, we just read
for now. (and read, and read, and READ!) But it creeps in, they are
doing math, on worksheets, mine is doing math in his head, without
instruction. Oh i could go on and on. But you see what I mean and
yes, i can see exactly what you are talking about. They are where
they need to be.
I had to throw in the math part for those that are considering or
are new to unschooling. My youngest is 6 and it was totally amazing
to me that he was adding and subtracting without doing worksheet
after worksheet or any instruction. In fact, it was by accident that
I found out he was capable of this. Not to mention his vocabulary.
Must be all the tv, new words all the time popping out of his little
head! NOT that I'm comparing him to the kids in school <g>
Ok, gotta get back on track and back to reading. Thank you both
for the encouragment.
syndi
Syndi
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:Are they happy, busy, engaged, open,
communicative,
my boys are ages 11.5 and 6.8 ! And yes, they are happy, busy,
engaged, open, communicative, interesting, healthy, trustworthy and
enjoying life!
Thank! I needed that!
syndi (only 1 i this time! <g>
<dezigna@c...> wrote:Are they happy, busy, engaged, open,
communicative,
> interesting, healthy, trustworthy and enjoying life? If they areperhaps you
> are doing something right.Hi Robyn,
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
my boys are ages 11.5 and 6.8 ! And yes, they are happy, busy,
engaged, open, communicative, interesting, healthy, trustworthy and
enjoying life!
Thank! I needed that!
syndi (only 1 i this time! <g>
>
Christa Hedrick
Syndi,
This may fly in the face of what everyone else thinks
about unschooling, but I still give my kids limits and
requirements. I think every family should do that,
though the amount and types would be different for
each family.
I only let my kids watch TV or videos/DVDs and play
on the computer during late afternoon and evening.
I'm not so rigid that I don't make exceptions,
especially for stuff that has to do with what they are
interested in learning, but it holds true for most the
time.
I started out letting them do whatever they wanted,
but they didn't do anything but read sometimes. I
remembered that as their mother I can parent them,
which includes guiding and directing their activities.
They have freedom in how to learn something and even
about when to go play for the most part.
For example, I require my kids to do math every day.
We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
flash cards or something else. But they have to do
something. I also make them do math first. They
never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.
Forget about schooling or unschooling, if that
confuses you, but think about your goal. Mine is to
help my kids become educated and grow into
responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
leave them to their own devices. They can't get the
education they need watching tv all day (and studies
have shown it's not healthy). And making them happy
all the time isn't my job. They need and want
guidance.
I'm still "unschooling." They choose most of their
learning experiences and always their education is
tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
use workbooks if they want to and then not every page
or problem must be done, just what they need to learn.
They also do a fair amount of helping around the
house and with the little ones and they don't have any
choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
or provide more direct guidance. It's your job as
parent. I hope this helps. I've been where you are.
Christa
--- Syndi <justlikemama@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
This may fly in the face of what everyone else thinks
about unschooling, but I still give my kids limits and
requirements. I think every family should do that,
though the amount and types would be different for
each family.
I only let my kids watch TV or videos/DVDs and play
on the computer during late afternoon and evening.
I'm not so rigid that I don't make exceptions,
especially for stuff that has to do with what they are
interested in learning, but it holds true for most the
time.
I started out letting them do whatever they wanted,
but they didn't do anything but read sometimes. I
remembered that as their mother I can parent them,
which includes guiding and directing their activities.
They have freedom in how to learn something and even
about when to go play for the most part.
For example, I require my kids to do math every day.
We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
flash cards or something else. But they have to do
something. I also make them do math first. They
never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.
Forget about schooling or unschooling, if that
confuses you, but think about your goal. Mine is to
help my kids become educated and grow into
responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
leave them to their own devices. They can't get the
education they need watching tv all day (and studies
have shown it's not healthy). And making them happy
all the time isn't my job. They need and want
guidance.
I'm still "unschooling." They choose most of their
learning experiences and always their education is
tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
use workbooks if they want to and then not every page
or problem must be done, just what they need to learn.
They also do a fair amount of helping around the
house and with the little ones and they don't have any
choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
or provide more direct guidance. It's your job as
parent. I hope this helps. I've been where you are.
Christa
--- Syndi <justlikemama@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> Hi all,
> Ok, Just when I thought I had this all figured out
> and was secure
> in what we are doing as far as radical unschooling I
> find myself very
> insecure and now, after reading a post from the
> other unschooling
> list mentioned, its even worse!
> 1st off is the TV. I don't monitor it at all, but
> we don't have
> cable so its not like there is too much my boyz
> can't watch. BUT,
> the thing is on constantly. Its as if my oldest
> cannot funtion
> without hearing or seeing it! Even if it is to put
> on a pair of
> shoes, he goes right to the tv to sit down and do
> it. Am I don't
> wrong leaving it on all the time? Myself, I like to
> listen to it, so
> I have been assuming that is what my kids are doing
> too. I guess I
> am just second guessing myself again.
> I need to get back to reading this list everyday,
> when I do, It is
> so much easier to keep things in perspective!
> Ok, 2nd, on the other list, which I found to have
> some great things
> to read, someone mentioned that she doesn't just
> leave her kids to
> themselves. But my boys seem to be so busy during
> the day, that they
> usually don't have time for mom! So I've just been
> letting them do
> their thing, as this is when they seem their
> happiest and most
> content. The youngest loves to read before bed, but
> so far that is
> ALL he wants to do with mom. The comment I read
> from that list that
> got me thinking was, she doesn't just let the kids
> play vidio games
> and watch tv and play all day. OH my , this is
> exactly what my kids
> are doing!
> I do take them to the library , when I can get
> them to, never
> forcing it. I let them pick out their own books,
> but don't stress
> over weather or not they read them. We go to the
> park, weather and
> asthma permitting, they go outdoors, and I do
> "strew" things about,
> but most times its ignored.
> Should I be doing anything any different? I think
> my own schooling
> is trying to creep back into my head, I don't know,
> I just all the
> sudden have all these doubts!
> Thanks for listening
> syndi
>
>
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
Rue Kream
>>Iremembered that as their mother I can parent them
**This seems to imply that those of us who do not place arbitrary
requirements and limits on our children are not parenting.
>>For example, I require my kids to do math every day.**Do your children use money or like to play with/sort/count/roll change?
Want to divide things amongst themselves fairly? Listen to or play music?
Enjoy pattern puzzles or noticing patterns in nature? Play with blocks or
do origami? Ask how much older they are than their little sister or how old
they'll be when _____ or how many days til ______? Play with dice or play
board games? Like playing with a calculator or stopwatch or timer? Notice
that their graham crackers can be easily broken into four pieces? Play
store? Show an interest in clocks and time and how long til their favorite
TV show? Enjoy trading card games, computer games, or video games? Are
they with you when you pay bills, prioritize your budget, or figure out how
much wood you need to complete a project? It would be pretty difficult to
get through a day without 'doing math' of some sort. Separating it out as a
subject and proclaiming it something that must be done in the morning only
limits it.
>>They put up a fuss at first**In my opinion this kind of minimizing of a person's unhappiness is
disrespectful.
>>Mine is tohelp my kids become educated and grow into
responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
leave them to their own devices.
**I'm not sure what you mean by leaving them to their own devices.
Unschooling parents are very involved with their children. Parents who
choose to recognize their children's autonomy are not dooming their children
to a life as irresponsible, uncaring adults.
>>They can't get theeducation they need watching tv all day (and studies
have shown it's not healthy).
**Given a rich environment, children will choose the activities that give
them exactly what they need. I don't need a study to show me that. I can
look at my own children and other free children I know.
>>And making them happyall the time isn't my job.
**I'm not sure we can make someone happy. I do my best to contribute to my
children's happiness all the time, though, with pleasure.
>>So don't be afraid to set limitsor provide more direct guidance.
**It's not fear that stops unschooling parents from setting limits and
'guiding' in the sense of parents making kids do what the parents think they
'should' do. It's a belief that children are whole people who are deserving
of the same level of respect we would like to be treated with. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<Forget about schooling or unschooling, if that
confuses you, but think about your goal. >>>>>
This is an Unschooling list. This is not the place to forget about schooling
or unschooling.
<<<<< I only let my kids watch TV or videos/DVDs and play
on the computer during late afternoon and evening.
I'm not so rigid that I don't make exceptions,
especially for stuff that has to do with what they are
interested in learning, but it holds true for most the
time.>>>>>
<<<<< They have freedom in how to learn something and even
about when to go play for the most part.>>>>>
Except for doing math first. Or learning using computer games. Or from
DVD's. Or from playing. Or evidently from math in real life.
Some people are morning people. They learn best first thing after awakening.
Others need to warm up to the day, and are at their most productive in the
afternoon or evening hours. These time restrictions are arbitrary.
<<<<They never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.>>>>
You may believe it's ok, but it's not Unschooling. It's not OK to recommend
restrictions and enforced teaching or stomping over your children's feelings
until they are defeated, on an Unschooling list.
My child is proud of herself too, and she has never been forced to "learn"
anything. Her pride is in what she has accomplished "academically", not from
making her mother happy or approving. Of course I am both of those things.
Especially since it is all her own ideas and discoveries.
<<<<< Mine is to
help my kids become educated and grow into
responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
leave them to their own devices.>>>>>
One purpose of this list is to help parents trust that their children will
learn all that need to become caring and responsible adults. It is never
"leaving them to their own devices" but the opposite. We don't leave them to
the tender mercies of some horrible math curriculum either.
Read for longer. Learn how it works before offensively dismissing us as not
caring if our kids grow up to be caring and responsible. Hopefully you will
also gain more faith in your children, instead of the amount of critical
scrutiny they have been subjected to by you in your post.
<<<< They can't get the
education they need watching tv all day (and studies
have shown it's not healthy).>>>>
Studies on schooled children.
Many, possibly most, Unschooled children watch all the tv they want, but
no-one thinks they are getting *all* the education they need from it -
including the children themselves.
<<<<<<<And making them happy
all the time isn't my job.>>>>>
Helping Jayn find her joy as much as possible in the world is my job - my
best job.
<<<<<They need and want guidance.>>>>
You are defining guidance as Mom makes all the choices that matter, and
enforce compliance if they disagree. Why are you assuming that Unschoolers
are not giving guidance to their children?
<<<<<I'm still "unschooling.">>>>>
Of course you are free to call yourself what you want in real life, although
I would call it "Relaxed Homeschooling" for accuracy.
But on this list, as we discuss Unschooling, no you are *not*. You stopped
being one when you started requiring a certain amount of math over your
children's stated objections because you stopped trusting them to learn it
in their own time and their own way.
<<<< They choose most of their
learning experiences and always their education is
tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
use workbooks if they want to and then not every page
or problem must be done, just what they need to learn.>>>>>
<<<<<For example, I require my kids to do math every day.
We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
flash cards or something else. But they have to do
something. I also make them do math first.>>>>>
Well which is it then?
No lesson plan except for do math first.
No checklists except for they have to do something math before they can
play.
No textbooks except for Math-U-See, whatever that is.
What really stops you being an Unschooler is that *you* are the one defining
"just what they need to learn" instead of them.
<<<< They also do a fair amount of helping around the
house and with the little ones and they don't have any
choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
or provide more direct guidance. It's your job as
parent.>>>>>
You are so far from really unschooling just the basic "academic portion",
that any discussion of Whole Life Unschooling is beyond consideration.
You are so focused on your children's deficiencies and how you have to make
them do stuff to make them up, that it is no wonder you can't trust them to
want to help you around the house.
Jayn is never forced to do anything around the house. The result is a
constant willing helper. Last night my precious, smart, vivacious 5 yo with
no assigned chores, came joyfully in to tell me she had a surprise for me.
She proudly displayed how she had carefully removed from the packaging and
put away into the refrigerator all of her juice boxes, recently brought home
from the store.
I think it is fear and distrust that prompts the setting of the kind of
parental comfort limits you are talking about. Living in freedom with
consensus and mindfulness and Principles instead of rules takes courage and
commitment, just as much as any choice to move out of the mainstream.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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confuses you, but think about your goal. >>>>>
This is an Unschooling list. This is not the place to forget about schooling
or unschooling.
<<<<< I only let my kids watch TV or videos/DVDs and play
on the computer during late afternoon and evening.
I'm not so rigid that I don't make exceptions,
especially for stuff that has to do with what they are
interested in learning, but it holds true for most the
time.>>>>>
<<<<< They have freedom in how to learn something and even
about when to go play for the most part.>>>>>
Except for doing math first. Or learning using computer games. Or from
DVD's. Or from playing. Or evidently from math in real life.
Some people are morning people. They learn best first thing after awakening.
Others need to warm up to the day, and are at their most productive in the
afternoon or evening hours. These time restrictions are arbitrary.
<<<<They never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.>>>>
You may believe it's ok, but it's not Unschooling. It's not OK to recommend
restrictions and enforced teaching or stomping over your children's feelings
until they are defeated, on an Unschooling list.
My child is proud of herself too, and she has never been forced to "learn"
anything. Her pride is in what she has accomplished "academically", not from
making her mother happy or approving. Of course I am both of those things.
Especially since it is all her own ideas and discoveries.
<<<<< Mine is to
help my kids become educated and grow into
responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
leave them to their own devices.>>>>>
One purpose of this list is to help parents trust that their children will
learn all that need to become caring and responsible adults. It is never
"leaving them to their own devices" but the opposite. We don't leave them to
the tender mercies of some horrible math curriculum either.
Read for longer. Learn how it works before offensively dismissing us as not
caring if our kids grow up to be caring and responsible. Hopefully you will
also gain more faith in your children, instead of the amount of critical
scrutiny they have been subjected to by you in your post.
<<<< They can't get the
education they need watching tv all day (and studies
have shown it's not healthy).>>>>
Studies on schooled children.
Many, possibly most, Unschooled children watch all the tv they want, but
no-one thinks they are getting *all* the education they need from it -
including the children themselves.
<<<<<<<And making them happy
all the time isn't my job.>>>>>
Helping Jayn find her joy as much as possible in the world is my job - my
best job.
<<<<<They need and want guidance.>>>>
You are defining guidance as Mom makes all the choices that matter, and
enforce compliance if they disagree. Why are you assuming that Unschoolers
are not giving guidance to their children?
<<<<<I'm still "unschooling.">>>>>
Of course you are free to call yourself what you want in real life, although
I would call it "Relaxed Homeschooling" for accuracy.
But on this list, as we discuss Unschooling, no you are *not*. You stopped
being one when you started requiring a certain amount of math over your
children's stated objections because you stopped trusting them to learn it
in their own time and their own way.
<<<< They choose most of their
learning experiences and always their education is
tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
use workbooks if they want to and then not every page
or problem must be done, just what they need to learn.>>>>>
<<<<<For example, I require my kids to do math every day.
We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
flash cards or something else. But they have to do
something. I also make them do math first.>>>>>
Well which is it then?
No lesson plan except for do math first.
No checklists except for they have to do something math before they can
play.
No textbooks except for Math-U-See, whatever that is.
What really stops you being an Unschooler is that *you* are the one defining
"just what they need to learn" instead of them.
<<<< They also do a fair amount of helping around the
house and with the little ones and they don't have any
choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
or provide more direct guidance. It's your job as
parent.>>>>>
You are so far from really unschooling just the basic "academic portion",
that any discussion of Whole Life Unschooling is beyond consideration.
You are so focused on your children's deficiencies and how you have to make
them do stuff to make them up, that it is no wonder you can't trust them to
want to help you around the house.
Jayn is never forced to do anything around the house. The result is a
constant willing helper. Last night my precious, smart, vivacious 5 yo with
no assigned chores, came joyfully in to tell me she had a surprise for me.
She proudly displayed how she had carefully removed from the packaging and
put away into the refrigerator all of her juice boxes, recently brought home
from the store.
I think it is fear and distrust that prompts the setting of the kind of
parental comfort limits you are talking about. Living in freedom with
consensus and mindfulness and Principles instead of rules takes courage and
commitment, just as much as any choice to move out of the mainstream.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004
pam sorooshian
>>> For example, I require my kids to do math every day.Try requiring them NOT to do any math for one full day. <G>
Best of luck.
Maybe first read "The Math Curse," by Jon Scieszka.
-pam
Angela White
Hi, I've joined a few days ago after seeing your group on an
unschoolers list (I think).
I am rather pleased to have found you as I don't really feel I fit any
group properly atm. I live with my dh and 2 dds in New Zealand. Since
Feb this year I have home schooled my 5.5yo dd after she hated every
day of the less than 2 weeks she attended school. I have been an
attachment parent with both my dd (my older dd is 14yo) and so I took
the (then) very scary step of taking her out. At the time I was also
reading John Holt's How children learn.
I then spent months of worrying, 'what have I done' type thoughts.
I started out copying school as I had no idea what else to do. I cringe
when I look back now and feel so sorry for my dd. Yet I still find it
so difficult to let go completely. There are 13 hs fam in our town and
all of them use curriculum. The school bit I still make my daughter do
is some hand printing, a 'story' one line sentence and she reads a
reader to me. Even though it doesn't take her very long to do that, she
still doesn't want to do them. I'm getting tired of pushing her and so
here we are: finally I'm looking at unschooling.
What stops me from just letting her do what she wants is this: as there
is a big age gap between my dd, my dd has no sibling to play with. We
were overseas for a year last year and some of her friends moved away
and we still trying to find more friends for her. After these 9 month
at home she has recently started to complain a lot about wanting to
play with friends more and about being bored on her own.
I can relate to that very well. My brothers were 8 and 12 yrs older
too. With the kids from the hs group and the kids she knows from
school, she still spends too much time on her own, IMO and hers. So if
she needs to go to school for being with kids, she needs to know a bit
to fit back in.
Then I'm not sure if I can keep up hs her. It is exhausting at times to
be the Mum, playmate, bookreader , taxi driver etc 7 days a week. That
doesn't mean I constantly entertain her. She spends many more hours
playing by herself. We are both happier when she has a friend over.
Then she is engaged playing and I can happily do my stuff, knowing she
is happy, too. Lacking that, I take her places, swimming etc to break
up a long afternoon etc. She also attends ballet, girl guides and
Suzuki violin and that takes a bit of running around too, so that I
feel there is little time to catch up on my jobs.
So I'm doing the 'basics' as a sort of insurance for the 'what if'
scenario.
I wonder how it is for other unschoolers with just one child at home.
I wonder if I dropped making her do the schooly bits if she would want
to read and write soon? (If she could read herself, a world of books
would be avail to her all day long = less need for other kids).
Greetings from down under
Angela
unschoolers list (I think).
I am rather pleased to have found you as I don't really feel I fit any
group properly atm. I live with my dh and 2 dds in New Zealand. Since
Feb this year I have home schooled my 5.5yo dd after she hated every
day of the less than 2 weeks she attended school. I have been an
attachment parent with both my dd (my older dd is 14yo) and so I took
the (then) very scary step of taking her out. At the time I was also
reading John Holt's How children learn.
I then spent months of worrying, 'what have I done' type thoughts.
I started out copying school as I had no idea what else to do. I cringe
when I look back now and feel so sorry for my dd. Yet I still find it
so difficult to let go completely. There are 13 hs fam in our town and
all of them use curriculum. The school bit I still make my daughter do
is some hand printing, a 'story' one line sentence and she reads a
reader to me. Even though it doesn't take her very long to do that, she
still doesn't want to do them. I'm getting tired of pushing her and so
here we are: finally I'm looking at unschooling.
What stops me from just letting her do what she wants is this: as there
is a big age gap between my dd, my dd has no sibling to play with. We
were overseas for a year last year and some of her friends moved away
and we still trying to find more friends for her. After these 9 month
at home she has recently started to complain a lot about wanting to
play with friends more and about being bored on her own.
I can relate to that very well. My brothers were 8 and 12 yrs older
too. With the kids from the hs group and the kids she knows from
school, she still spends too much time on her own, IMO and hers. So if
she needs to go to school for being with kids, she needs to know a bit
to fit back in.
Then I'm not sure if I can keep up hs her. It is exhausting at times to
be the Mum, playmate, bookreader , taxi driver etc 7 days a week. That
doesn't mean I constantly entertain her. She spends many more hours
playing by herself. We are both happier when she has a friend over.
Then she is engaged playing and I can happily do my stuff, knowing she
is happy, too. Lacking that, I take her places, swimming etc to break
up a long afternoon etc. She also attends ballet, girl guides and
Suzuki violin and that takes a bit of running around too, so that I
feel there is little time to catch up on my jobs.
So I'm doing the 'basics' as a sort of insurance for the 'what if'
scenario.
I wonder how it is for other unschoolers with just one child at home.
I wonder if I dropped making her do the schooly bits if she would want
to read and write soon? (If she could read herself, a world of books
would be avail to her all day long = less need for other kids).
Greetings from down under
Angela
Christa Hedrick
Rue,
I wasn't saying unschooling parents didn't parent or
were uninvolved. My point to Syndi was that they
were. I was talking about what she said her kids were
doing and her doubts and insecurities. She said her
kids weren't doing things like you mentioned and that
they didn't really want her involved. I just wanted
her to know it didn't have to be that way and she
didn't need to feel bad that she was squashing their
creativity and not unschoooling if she did get more
involved.
I did say it is different for every family and gave an
example of mine. My kids don't do any of the things
you mentioned. The only thing they would be
interested in is money (and while I would love to give
them an allowance, we can't afford to). That's why I
require math activities.
I do not require language, history, or science
activities, because they do stuff in those areas all
the time and ask questions incessently. If they loved
math and did patterns or sorting or whatever all the
time, then I wouldn't require it. If they never read
a book, then I would require that.
Anyway, I agree with alot of what you said, because I
wasn't speaking against the freedom of unschooling.
Christa
--- Rue Kream <skreams@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
I wasn't saying unschooling parents didn't parent or
were uninvolved. My point to Syndi was that they
were. I was talking about what she said her kids were
doing and her doubts and insecurities. She said her
kids weren't doing things like you mentioned and that
they didn't really want her involved. I just wanted
her to know it didn't have to be that way and she
didn't need to feel bad that she was squashing their
creativity and not unschoooling if she did get more
involved.
I did say it is different for every family and gave an
example of mine. My kids don't do any of the things
you mentioned. The only thing they would be
interested in is money (and while I would love to give
them an allowance, we can't afford to). That's why I
require math activities.
I do not require language, history, or science
activities, because they do stuff in those areas all
the time and ask questions incessently. If they loved
math and did patterns or sorting or whatever all the
time, then I wouldn't require it. If they never read
a book, then I would require that.
Anyway, I agree with alot of what you said, because I
wasn't speaking against the freedom of unschooling.
Christa
--- Rue Kream <skreams@...> wrote:
> >>I__________________________________
> remembered that as their mother I can parent them
>
> **This seems to imply that those of us who do not
> place arbitrary
> requirements and limits on our children are not
> parenting.
>
> >>For example, I require my kids to do math every
> day.
>
> **Do your children use money or like to play
> with/sort/count/roll change?
> Want to divide things amongst themselves fairly?
> Listen to or play music?
> Enjoy pattern puzzles or noticing patterns in
> nature? Play with blocks or
> do origami? Ask how much older they are than their
> little sister or how old
> they'll be when _____ or how many days til ______?
> Play with dice or play
> board games? Like playing with a calculator or
> stopwatch or timer? Notice
> that their graham crackers can be easily broken into
> four pieces? Play
> store? Show an interest in clocks and time and how
> long til their favorite
> TV show? Enjoy trading card games, computer games,
> or video games? Are
> they with you when you pay bills, prioritize your
> budget, or figure out how
> much wood you need to complete a project? It would
> be pretty difficult to
> get through a day without 'doing math' of some sort.
> Separating it out as a
> subject and proclaiming it something that must be
> done in the morning only
> limits it.
>
> >>They put up a fuss at first
>
> **In my opinion this kind of minimizing of a
> person's unhappiness is
> disrespectful.
>
> >>Mine is to
> help my kids become educated and grow into
> responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
> leave them to their own devices.
>
> **I'm not sure what you mean by leaving them to
> their own devices.
> Unschooling parents are very involved with their
> children. Parents who
> choose to recognize their children's autonomy are
> not dooming their children
> to a life as irresponsible, uncaring adults.
>
> >>They can't get the
> education they need watching tv all day (and studies
> have shown it's not healthy).
>
> **Given a rich environment, children will choose the
> activities that give
> them exactly what they need. I don't need a study
> to show me that. I can
> look at my own children and other free children I
> know.
>
> >>And making them happy
> all the time isn't my job.
>
> **I'm not sure we can make someone happy. I do my
> best to contribute to my
> children's happiness all the time, though, with
> pleasure.
>
> >>So don't be afraid to set limits
> or provide more direct guidance.
>
> **It's not fear that stops unschooling parents from
> setting limits and
> 'guiding' in the sense of parents making kids do
> what the parents think they
> 'should' do. It's a belief that children are whole
> people who are deserving
> of the same level of respect we would like to be
> treated with. ~Rue
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
Christa Hedrick
Pam,
I didn't require them to do math for months and they
said they'd rather me tell them to. They like math,
but never choose to do and get frustrated when they
want to know how to multiply or divide and can't. I
didn't put that on them. I was happy to wait till
they wre ready. The thing is they are ready, but need
that extra push.
I then didn't require them to do math in the morning,
but they still wouldn't get to it all day. I
suggested doing it first thing and they thought that
was a great idea. How it becomes a requirement is
when they ask to do math later, I remind them gently
about before and ask if they think they will do it and
they honestly say no and agree to do it then. There
are no fights or tears or being scared of math.
Christa
--- pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
I didn't require them to do math for months and they
said they'd rather me tell them to. They like math,
but never choose to do and get frustrated when they
want to know how to multiply or divide and can't. I
didn't put that on them. I was happy to wait till
they wre ready. The thing is they are ready, but need
that extra push.
I then didn't require them to do math in the morning,
but they still wouldn't get to it all day. I
suggested doing it first thing and they thought that
was a great idea. How it becomes a requirement is
when they ask to do math later, I remind them gently
about before and ask if they think they will do it and
they honestly say no and agree to do it then. There
are no fights or tears or being scared of math.
Christa
--- pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> >>> For example, I require my kids to do math every
> day.
>
> Try requiring them NOT to do any math for one full
> day. <G>
>
> Best of luck.
>
> Maybe first read "The Math Curse," by Jon Scieszka.
>
> -pam
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
TreeGoddess
On Nov 9, 2004, at 12:26 AM, Christa Hedrick wrote:
from reading???
-Tracy-
"Every moment spent in unhappiness is a moment of
happiness lost." -- Leo Buscaglia
> [I started out letting them do whatever they wanted,And that would be bad -why-? Why would you want to stop your children
> but they didn't do anything but read sometimes. ]
from reading???
-Tracy-
"Every moment spent in unhappiness is a moment of
happiness lost." -- Leo Buscaglia
Christa Hedrick
Robyn,
I only meant forget about schooling unschooling to get
some perspective apart from any preconcieved ideas
about what unschooling is supposed to be. Not
everyone, especially those new to it understand.
People all the time think it's that crazy thing lazy
parents do where there kids don't do anything but
wathc tv all day and run wild.
I know that's not the case. We trust our children to
learn and are very involved. We don't set arbitrary
rules about school or what time it should be done. By
the way my kids do their best in the morning and I
wrote about the math more in antoher post. We let
them learn and discover and if the want to spend all
day reading and looking up info on the internet about
mummies or trains or whatever, we don't interrupt and
say they have to do language now. We don't saysay
they have to read this book or write a report, but
thrill when they choose things like that on their own.
When they want to learn something but don't know, we
help them discover how.
I am definately not recommending (I have hardest time
spelling this word LOL!) stomping on feelings and what
parent truly thinks kids need no restrictions in life.
I am not forcing my kids to learn. They learn on
their own. They are proud of their efforts and
accomplishments.
I do trust my children to learn, but also recognize
they are children and need some guidance. I do not
think unschoolers raise uncaring children, nor do I
think they are uninvolved. I believe they are the
most involved with their children. That was my point.
Being involved is necessary. I know the people on
this list must be and tried to explain that.
My kids are not at the tender mercies of a math
curriculum. It is a resource they are welcome to use
and they like it. I have not subjected them to
critical scrutiny either. I can't understand why you
seem so angry and presume such bad things about me.
I am very familiar with unschoolingand have been for
years, though only on this list for few months. And I
know guidance isn't Mom making all the descisions, and
I don't, but it is making some of them. My kids are
kids and can't make all the descisions either. I also
assumed unschoolers gave that to their kids.
I am glad you have children who are helpful. Mine are
also, but won't lift a finger if Mom doesn't require
it. I don't focus on their deficiencies, but
recognize their weaknesses and help them strengthen
those areas. I haven't defined what they need to
learn. They choose what to learn. They want to learn
math. I help them, but they can do it how they
choose. They don't always use Math-U-See (which isn't
a text book).
Rules are not bad and I have the courage to live
according to my principles. I am not fearful. As
someone who chooses homebirth, breastfeeding,
unschooling (or relaxed homeschooling, if you prefer),
attachment parenting, and being a Christian who
doesn't approve of President Bush all put me out of
the mainstream.
You have made a point though. I am not welcome on
this board and will leave it.
Christa
--- Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
I only meant forget about schooling unschooling to get
some perspective apart from any preconcieved ideas
about what unschooling is supposed to be. Not
everyone, especially those new to it understand.
People all the time think it's that crazy thing lazy
parents do where there kids don't do anything but
wathc tv all day and run wild.
I know that's not the case. We trust our children to
learn and are very involved. We don't set arbitrary
rules about school or what time it should be done. By
the way my kids do their best in the morning and I
wrote about the math more in antoher post. We let
them learn and discover and if the want to spend all
day reading and looking up info on the internet about
mummies or trains or whatever, we don't interrupt and
say they have to do language now. We don't saysay
they have to read this book or write a report, but
thrill when they choose things like that on their own.
When they want to learn something but don't know, we
help them discover how.
I am definately not recommending (I have hardest time
spelling this word LOL!) stomping on feelings and what
parent truly thinks kids need no restrictions in life.
I am not forcing my kids to learn. They learn on
their own. They are proud of their efforts and
accomplishments.
I do trust my children to learn, but also recognize
they are children and need some guidance. I do not
think unschoolers raise uncaring children, nor do I
think they are uninvolved. I believe they are the
most involved with their children. That was my point.
Being involved is necessary. I know the people on
this list must be and tried to explain that.
My kids are not at the tender mercies of a math
curriculum. It is a resource they are welcome to use
and they like it. I have not subjected them to
critical scrutiny either. I can't understand why you
seem so angry and presume such bad things about me.
I am very familiar with unschoolingand have been for
years, though only on this list for few months. And I
know guidance isn't Mom making all the descisions, and
I don't, but it is making some of them. My kids are
kids and can't make all the descisions either. I also
assumed unschoolers gave that to their kids.
I am glad you have children who are helpful. Mine are
also, but won't lift a finger if Mom doesn't require
it. I don't focus on their deficiencies, but
recognize their weaknesses and help them strengthen
those areas. I haven't defined what they need to
learn. They choose what to learn. They want to learn
math. I help them, but they can do it how they
choose. They don't always use Math-U-See (which isn't
a text book).
Rules are not bad and I have the courage to live
according to my principles. I am not fearful. As
someone who chooses homebirth, breastfeeding,
unschooling (or relaxed homeschooling, if you prefer),
attachment parenting, and being a Christian who
doesn't approve of President Bush all put me out of
the mainstream.
You have made a point though. I am not welcome on
this board and will leave it.
Christa
--- Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
>=== message truncated ===
> <<<<<Forget about schooling or unschooling, if that
> confuses you, but think about your goal. >>>>>
>
> This is an Unschooling list. This is not the place
> to forget about schooling
> or unschooling.
>
> <<<<< I only let my kids watch TV or videos/DVDs and
> play
> on the computer during late afternoon and evening.
> I'm not so rigid that I don't make exceptions,
> especially for stuff that has to do with what they
> are
> interested in learning, but it holds true for most
> the
> time.>>>>>
>
> <<<<< They have freedom in how to learn something
> and even
> about when to go play for the most part.>>>>>
>
> Except for doing math first. Or learning using
> computer games. Or from
> DVD's. Or from playing. Or evidently from math in
> real life.
>
> Some people are morning people. They learn best
> first thing after awakening.
> Others need to warm up to the day, and are at their
> most productive in the
> afternoon or evening hours. These time restrictions
> are arbitrary.
>
> <<<<They never do when left on their own, but admit
> it's okay
> when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
> are very proud of themselves for what they have
> learned.>>>>
>
> You may believe it's ok, but it's not Unschooling.
> It's not OK to recommend
> restrictions and enforced teaching or stomping over
> your children's feelings
> until they are defeated, on an Unschooling list.
>
> My child is proud of herself too, and she has never
> been forced to "learn"
> anything. Her pride is in what she has accomplished
> "academically", not from
> making her mother happy or approving. Of course I am
> both of those things.
> Especially since it is all her own ideas and
> discoveries.
>
> <<<<< Mine is to
> help my kids become educated and grow into
> responsible, caring adults. They won't do that if I
> leave them to their own devices.>>>>>
>
> One purpose of this list is to help parents trust
> that their children will
> learn all that need to become caring and responsible
> adults. It is never
> "leaving them to their own devices" but the
> opposite. We don't leave them to
> the tender mercies of some horrible math curriculum
> either.
>
> Read for longer. Learn how it works before
> offensively dismissing us as not
> caring if our kids grow up to be caring and
> responsible. Hopefully you will
> also gain more faith in your children, instead of
> the amount of critical
> scrutiny they have been subjected to by you in your
> post.
>
> <<<< They can't get the
> education they need watching tv all day (and studies
> have shown it's not healthy).>>>>
>
> Studies on schooled children.
>
> Many, possibly most, Unschooled children watch all
> the tv they want, but
> no-one thinks they are getting *all* the education
> they need from it -
> including the children themselves.
>
> <<<<<<<And making them happy
> all the time isn't my job.>>>>>
>
> Helping Jayn find her joy as much as possible in the
> world is my job - my
> best job.
>
> <<<<<They need and want guidance.>>>>
>
> You are defining guidance as Mom makes all the
> choices that matter, and
> enforce compliance if they disagree. Why are you
> assuming that Unschoolers
> are not giving guidance to their children?
>
> <<<<<I'm still "unschooling.">>>>>
>
> Of course you are free to call yourself what you
> want in real life, although
> I would call it "Relaxed Homeschooling" for
> accuracy.
>
> But on this list, as we discuss Unschooling, no you
> are *not*. You stopped
> being one when you started requiring a certain
> amount of math over your
> children's stated objections because you stopped
> trusting them to learn it
> in their own time and their own way.
>
> <<<< They choose most of their
> learning experiences and always their education is
> tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
> lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
> use workbooks if they want to and then not every
> page
> or problem must be done, just what they need to
> learn.>>>>>
>
> <<<<<For example, I require my kids to do math every
> day.
> We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
> flash cards or something else. But they have to do
> something. I also make them do math first.>>>>>
>
> Well which is it then?
>
> No lesson plan except for do math first.
> No checklists except for they have to do something
> math before they can
> play.
> No textbooks except for Math-U-See, whatever that
> is.
>
> What really stops you being an Unschooler is that
> *you* are the one defining
> "just what they need to learn" instead of them.
>
> <<<< They also do a fair amount of helping around
> the
> house and with the little ones and they don't have
> any
> choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
> or provide more direct guidance. It's your job as
> parent.>>>>>
>
> You are so far from really unschooling just the
> basic "academic portion",
> that any discussion of Whole Life Unschooling is
> beyond consideration.
>
> You are so focused on your children's deficiencies
> and how you have to make
> them do stuff to make them up, that it is no wonder
> you can't trust them to
> want to help you around the house.
>
> Jayn is never forced to do anything around the
> house. The result is a
> constant willing helper. Last night my precious,
> smart, vivacious 5 yo with
> no assigned chores, came joyfully in to tell me she
> had a surprise for me.
> She proudly displayed how she had carefully removed
> from the packaging and
> put away into the refrigerator all of her juice
> boxes, recently brought home
> from the store.
>
> I think it is fear and distrust that prompts the
> setting of the kind of
> parental comfort limits you are talking about.
> Living in freedom with
> consensus and mindfulness and Principles instead of
> rules takes courage and
> commitment, just as much as any choice to move out
> of the mainstream.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release
> Date: 10/22/2004
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
Christa Hedrick
Tracy,
No, of course. Don't be silly.
Christa
--- TreeGoddess <treegoddess@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
No, of course. Don't be silly.
Christa
--- TreeGoddess <treegoddess@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> On Nov 9, 2004, at 12:26 AM, Christa Hedrick wrote:
>
> > [I started out letting them do whatever they
> wanted,
> > but they didn't do anything but read sometimes. ]
>
> And that would be bad -why-? Why would you want to
> stop your children
> from reading???
>
> -Tracy-
>
> "Every moment spent in unhappiness is a moment of
> happiness lost." -- Leo Buscaglia
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/9/2004 1:52:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
casalys@... writes:
Syndi,
This may fly in the face of what everyone else thinks
about unschooling, but I still give my kids limits and
requirements.<<<<<
Yep. Flies in the face. Still shooing them away.
Limiting and requirements are antithetical to unschooling.
remembered that as their mother I can parent them,
which includes guiding and directing their activities.
They have freedom in how to learn something and even
about when to go play for the most part. <<<<<
I let mine do whatever they want, and they are creative and eager learners.
Sometimes they don't do anything but lie and stare at the clouds----and that's
OK too. I remember that as their mother, I can love them----which means
allowing them to be exactly Who They Are at this very moment. They have the
freedom to learn *everything* and get to play all the time.
_flash cards_ (mip://05d314e0/flash%20cards) or something else. But they
have to do
something. I also make them do math first. They
never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.<<<<<<
I hope NO one here takes this as unschooling advice. It is NOT.
The whole pint of this list is to help you SEE the difference between
schooling and unschooling. The GOAL is a joyful childhood, absent of the coersion
so often seen in the average home----and certainly in the home of *this*
mother. The SIDE EFFECT is an education.
responsible, caring adults.<<<<<
Mine is to help my kids feel loved and valued for Who They Are now. With
that, they will grow up to feel loved and valued adults.
That's really too bad. And sad that you think so.
have shown it's not healthy). And making them happy
all the time isn't my job. They need and want
guidance. <<<<<<<
Studies-schmudies. An education comes with the freedom to learn and a love
of learning. Coersion and fear will put a stop to learning faster than
anything else. Television has NOTHING to do with whether a child will get an
'education'.
My children's happiness and joy IS my goal. Shortest route to a happy
adulthood is a happy childhood. Guidance is good when you know the direction you
want to take. It's worthless if you're heading in the opposite direction.
Relaxed homeschooling, maybe. CERTAINLY not unschooling. Trust and repect
are the cornerstones of unschooling. You're showing neither of these traits.
tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
use workbooks if they want to and then not every page
or problem must be done, just what they need to learn.
AND:
For example, I require my kids to do math every day.
We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
_flash cards_ (mip://05d314e0/flash%20cards) or something else. But they
have to do
something. I also make them do math first. They
never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.<<<<<
Sorry. Can't have it both ways. You're requiring, so they're not choosing.
You're limiting, so they don't have freedom. You're forcing, so they're not
trusted.
choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
or provide more direct guidance. <<<<<
No choice? No freedom. Know Choice? Know Freedom.
inhibits.
You may have been "where she is," but you have no idea where she's going.
Kind of like that guidance question. If you're trying to get to an usnchooling
lifestyle, THAT kind of guidance is wrong and won't help at all on the path.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
casalys@... writes:
Syndi,
This may fly in the face of what everyone else thinks
about unschooling, but I still give my kids limits and
requirements.<<<<<
Yep. Flies in the face. Still shooing them away.
Limiting and requirements are antithetical to unschooling.
>>>>I started out letting them do whatever they wanted,but they didn't do anything but read sometimes. I
remembered that as their mother I can parent them,
which includes guiding and directing their activities.
They have freedom in how to learn something and even
about when to go play for the most part. <<<<<
I let mine do whatever they want, and they are creative and eager learners.
Sometimes they don't do anything but lie and stare at the clouds----and that's
OK too. I remember that as their mother, I can love them----which means
allowing them to be exactly Who They Are at this very moment. They have the
freedom to learn *everything* and get to play all the time.
>>>>>For example, I require my kids to do math every day.We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
_flash cards_ (mip://05d314e0/flash%20cards) or something else. But they
have to do
something. I also make them do math first. They
never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.<<<<<<
I hope NO one here takes this as unschooling advice. It is NOT.
>>>>>>Forget about schooling or unschooling, if thatconfuses you, but think about your goal. <<<<<
The whole pint of this list is to help you SEE the difference between
schooling and unschooling. The GOAL is a joyful childhood, absent of the coersion
so often seen in the average home----and certainly in the home of *this*
mother. The SIDE EFFECT is an education.
>>>>>> Mine is tohelp my kids become educated and grow into
responsible, caring adults.<<<<<
Mine is to help my kids feel loved and valued for Who They Are now. With
that, they will grow up to feel loved and valued adults.
>>>>> They won't do that if Ileave them to their own devices. <<<<<<
That's really too bad. And sad that you think so.
>>>>They can't get theeducation they need watching tv all day (and studies
have shown it's not healthy). And making them happy
all the time isn't my job. They need and want
guidance. <<<<<<<
Studies-schmudies. An education comes with the freedom to learn and a love
of learning. Coersion and fear will put a stop to learning faster than
anything else. Television has NOTHING to do with whether a child will get an
'education'.
My children's happiness and joy IS my goal. Shortest route to a happy
adulthood is a happy childhood. Guidance is good when you know the direction you
want to take. It's worthless if you're heading in the opposite direction.
>>>>>I'm still "unschooling." <<<<<<Uh, NO, you're not.
Relaxed homeschooling, maybe. CERTAINLY not unschooling. Trust and repect
are the cornerstones of unschooling. You're showing neither of these traits.
>>>>> They choose most of theirlearning experiences and always their education is
tailored to the way they learn best. We have no
lesson plans or checklists or textbooks. They only
use workbooks if they want to and then not every page
or problem must be done, just what they need to learn.
AND:
For example, I require my kids to do math every day.
We have Math-U-See and they can do a page in it or
_flash cards_ (mip://05d314e0/flash%20cards) or something else. But they
have to do
something. I also make them do math first. They
never do when left on their own, but admit it's okay
when I make them. They put up a fuss at first, but
are very proud of themselves for what they have
learned.<<<<<
Sorry. Can't have it both ways. You're requiring, so they're not choosing.
You're limiting, so they don't have freedom. You're forcing, so they're not
trusted.
>>>>>>They also do a fair amount of helping around thehouse and with the little ones and they don't have any
choice about that. So don't be afraid to set limits
or provide more direct guidance. <<<<<
No choice? No freedom. Know Choice? Know Freedom.
>>>>> I hope this helps. I've been where you are. <<<<<Doesn't help at ALL on an unschooling list. It hinders. It hurts. It
inhibits.
You may have been "where she is," but you have no idea where she's going.
Kind of like that guidance question. If you're trying to get to an usnchooling
lifestyle, THAT kind of guidance is wrong and won't help at all on the path.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/9/2004 9:31:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
[I started out letting them do whatever they wanted,
from reading???
-Tracy-<<<<
Better question, Tracy:
Why would you stop your child from doing *anything* that he found enjoyable
and valuable?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
[I started out letting them do whatever they wanted,
> but they didn't do anything but read sometimes. ]And that would be bad -why-? Why would you want to stop your children
from reading???
-Tracy-<<<<
Better question, Tracy:
Why would you stop your child from doing *anything* that he found enjoyable
and valuable?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
What she was questioning was not really whether her kids are fine, but
whether it was okay that SHE wasn't as hands-on involved in what they
were doing all day as what somebody on another list made it sound like
she ought to be.
Syndi sounds to me like they're going through a phase of the kids being
happy and content with what they're doing. Having mom "involved" in
what they're doing throughout the day-in the sense of playing WITH
them, reading WITH them, and so on, is sometimes how things work and
sometimes not. Supporting their interests so that they CAN spend their
day content and happy is always how it works. Sounds to me like she's
doing that, along with continuing to offer additional possibilities,
and her kids are fine.
One of my own reality-checks was that I wouldn't interfere when the kid
were already content and happy and busy with their own chosen
activities, to try to induce them to do something else just because I
thought it was more valuable. I've done exactly what Syndi described,
offered other possibilities and let them take me up on it if and when
THEY wanted to do so.
Christa, your advice was to impose herself and activities of her
choosing ON her kids, even though they're perfectly content and happy
and busy doing their own things.
Why would that be good advice?
-pam
whether it was okay that SHE wasn't as hands-on involved in what they
were doing all day as what somebody on another list made it sound like
she ought to be.
Syndi sounds to me like they're going through a phase of the kids being
happy and content with what they're doing. Having mom "involved" in
what they're doing throughout the day-in the sense of playing WITH
them, reading WITH them, and so on, is sometimes how things work and
sometimes not. Supporting their interests so that they CAN spend their
day content and happy is always how it works. Sounds to me like she's
doing that, along with continuing to offer additional possibilities,
and her kids are fine.
One of my own reality-checks was that I wouldn't interfere when the kid
were already content and happy and busy with their own chosen
activities, to try to induce them to do something else just because I
thought it was more valuable. I've done exactly what Syndi described,
offered other possibilities and let them take me up on it if and when
THEY wanted to do so.
Christa, your advice was to impose herself and activities of her
choosing ON her kids, even though they're perfectly content and happy
and busy doing their own things.
Why would that be good advice?
-pam
On Nov 9, 2004, at 5:35 AM, Christa Hedrick wrote:
> My point to Syndi was that they
> were. I was talking about what she said her kids were
> doing and her doubts and insecurities. She said her
> kids weren't doing things like you mentioned and that
> they didn't really want her involved. I just wanted
> her to know it didn't have to be that way and she
> didn't need to feel bad that she was squashing their
> creativity and not unschoooling if she did get more
> involved.
pam sorooshian
On Nov 9, 2004, at 5:50 AM, Christa Hedrick wrote:
I think you are talking about book work or formal computational
exercises of some kind. That's not math.
there is an actual need. Actually, it is the only time anybody REALLY
learns in a useful way - because if they learn out of context, they
often never develop the ability to know when to use the practiced
technique.
I've told a bunch of times about how Roxana learned to do long division
because it is such a good example of an unschooled kid/mom interaction
regarding math. She wanted to travel to New York, around 3,000 miles
away, and wanted to know how long it would take us to drive there, so
she asked me how many miles we could travel in a day. I just said, "Oh
around 350 miles per day, probably." She proceeded to subtract 350 from
3,000 over and over, to figure out how many 350's there were in 3,000.
I walked by and saw what she was doing and that she was frustrated,
because she'd made a mistake in her subtraction early on and had just
noticed it, and I said, "There is an easier way to do that." She was
eager to learn the easier way, and I told her that she had to be a
little patient and let me show her some simpler ones first, but that
pretty quickly she'd be able to do the harder kind she wanted to do. So
I showed her 6 divided by 3 and then 60 divided by 3 and then 60
divided by 30 and then 600 divided by 30 and then 600 divided by 15 and
then some with remainders. Then I said, "Okay, you can do the one you
wanted to now." She was SO excited - this was a short-cut she could
really appreciate. I told her, "This is called long division." Her
response: "Wow, but this is so cool. Why do people always groan and act
like they hate long division?" And she had me give her about 10 more
big long problems to play with. She did those and that was it. Her one
and only ever "lesson" on long division and it lasted about 30 minutes
total, including her extra practice time at the end.
Unschooling math doesn't mean leaving kids frustrated by not knowing
basic arithmetic like multiplication and division. It means that they
learn them because they want to learn them and very often they simply
pick them up the same way they picked up reading and writing. This was
one time that the need was very apparent and the response was for me to
quickly help her learn what she wanted to know. But, keep in mind,
she's never had one single minute of being required to do any math
(she's 17 now) and she's perfectly adept at basic arithmetic and has
good conceptual understanding of all kinds of math concepts that she
probably couldn't even name. She's been talking about wanting to do
some algebra - she's thinking about college requirements at this point
and is going to want to take the math placement test at the college at
some point, and hopes to not have to start at the very beginning of the
college math sequence - so I bought some algebra books that I thought
she might find to her liking. She fooled with them a little bit and now
they've been sitting around for a couple of months. I think that is
because she's been very busy - doing two shows and writing a novel and
taking musical theater related classes. It's fine, I'm not even
reminding her about the algebra books, because she knows they are there
and she could work with them if that's what she wanted. Maybe when
she's less busy, I'll ask her if she wants to go back to them with my
help.
-pam
> I didn't require them to do math for months and theyThey couldn't possibly have avoided doing math for months.
> said they'd rather me tell them to.
I think you are talking about book work or formal computational
exercises of some kind. That's not math.
> They like math,Why not show them right then - that's the very best time to learn, when
> but never choose to do and get frustrated when they
> want to know how to multiply or divide and can't.
there is an actual need. Actually, it is the only time anybody REALLY
learns in a useful way - because if they learn out of context, they
often never develop the ability to know when to use the practiced
technique.
I've told a bunch of times about how Roxana learned to do long division
because it is such a good example of an unschooled kid/mom interaction
regarding math. She wanted to travel to New York, around 3,000 miles
away, and wanted to know how long it would take us to drive there, so
she asked me how many miles we could travel in a day. I just said, "Oh
around 350 miles per day, probably." She proceeded to subtract 350 from
3,000 over and over, to figure out how many 350's there were in 3,000.
I walked by and saw what she was doing and that she was frustrated,
because she'd made a mistake in her subtraction early on and had just
noticed it, and I said, "There is an easier way to do that." She was
eager to learn the easier way, and I told her that she had to be a
little patient and let me show her some simpler ones first, but that
pretty quickly she'd be able to do the harder kind she wanted to do. So
I showed her 6 divided by 3 and then 60 divided by 3 and then 60
divided by 30 and then 600 divided by 30 and then 600 divided by 15 and
then some with remainders. Then I said, "Okay, you can do the one you
wanted to now." She was SO excited - this was a short-cut she could
really appreciate. I told her, "This is called long division." Her
response: "Wow, but this is so cool. Why do people always groan and act
like they hate long division?" And she had me give her about 10 more
big long problems to play with. She did those and that was it. Her one
and only ever "lesson" on long division and it lasted about 30 minutes
total, including her extra practice time at the end.
Unschooling math doesn't mean leaving kids frustrated by not knowing
basic arithmetic like multiplication and division. It means that they
learn them because they want to learn them and very often they simply
pick them up the same way they picked up reading and writing. This was
one time that the need was very apparent and the response was for me to
quickly help her learn what she wanted to know. But, keep in mind,
she's never had one single minute of being required to do any math
(she's 17 now) and she's perfectly adept at basic arithmetic and has
good conceptual understanding of all kinds of math concepts that she
probably couldn't even name. She's been talking about wanting to do
some algebra - she's thinking about college requirements at this point
and is going to want to take the math placement test at the college at
some point, and hopes to not have to start at the very beginning of the
college math sequence - so I bought some algebra books that I thought
she might find to her liking. She fooled with them a little bit and now
they've been sitting around for a couple of months. I think that is
because she's been very busy - doing two shows and writing a novel and
taking musical theater related classes. It's fine, I'm not even
reminding her about the algebra books, because she knows they are there
and she could work with them if that's what she wanted. Maybe when
she's less busy, I'll ask her if she wants to go back to them with my
help.
> IHow old are they? Just curious what age kids we're talking about here.
> didn't put that on them. I was happy to wait till
> they wre ready. The thing is they are ready, but need
> that extra push.
-pam
huntmom1996
In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
_Science Verse_, by Jon Scieszka, too, esp. Dino-Sore which ends
years of enforced study being "bored to death" of dinosaurs!
Jessica
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>first read "The Math Curse," by Jon Scieszka.
>>
>And I recommend:
> -pam
_Science Verse_, by Jon Scieszka, too, esp. Dino-Sore which ends
years of enforced study being "bored to death" of dinosaurs!
Jessica
pam sorooshian
Hi -
Sandra Dodd and I will be speaking on unschooling in several locations
in Southern California in early December. Sandra will be speaking in
Rancho Cucamonga and we'll both be speaking in the Orange County/Long
Beach area as well as in Bakersfield.
Please join us - it is always exciting to have Sandra in town, she's a
great speaker and not to be missed!! She'll definitely get you
thinking!!
Specific locations, dates, times, and topics are below...
-pam sorooshian
Thursday, December 2, "Inland Empire"
Barnes and Noble Bookstore,
11090 Foothill Blvd
Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730-3821
Phone: (909) 980-5586
7:00 to 9:00 (and probably later)
"Connecting the Dots and other Unschooling Techniques"
Contact Roberta Jackson, BJacks6@...
Saturday, December 4, Orange County
Garden Grove Friends Church
12211 Magnolia Street, Garden Grove
9:00 to noon
Introduction to Unschooling (Pam Sorooshian)
Ideas, Knowing, Being, Learning (Sandra Dodd)
Contact Pam Sorooshian, PamSoroosh@...
Monday, December 6, Bakersfield
Private home, contact below
Potluck at 6pm
followed by stories, ideas, questions/discussions
Contact: Dominique Moseley, dominique@...
Sandra Dodd and I will be speaking on unschooling in several locations
in Southern California in early December. Sandra will be speaking in
Rancho Cucamonga and we'll both be speaking in the Orange County/Long
Beach area as well as in Bakersfield.
Please join us - it is always exciting to have Sandra in town, she's a
great speaker and not to be missed!! She'll definitely get you
thinking!!
Specific locations, dates, times, and topics are below...
-pam sorooshian
Thursday, December 2, "Inland Empire"
Barnes and Noble Bookstore,
11090 Foothill Blvd
Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730-3821
Phone: (909) 980-5586
7:00 to 9:00 (and probably later)
"Connecting the Dots and other Unschooling Techniques"
Contact Roberta Jackson, BJacks6@...
Saturday, December 4, Orange County
Garden Grove Friends Church
12211 Magnolia Street, Garden Grove
9:00 to noon
Introduction to Unschooling (Pam Sorooshian)
Ideas, Knowing, Being, Learning (Sandra Dodd)
Contact Pam Sorooshian, PamSoroosh@...
Monday, December 6, Bakersfield
Private home, contact below
Potluck at 6pm
followed by stories, ideas, questions/discussions
Contact: Dominique Moseley, dominique@...