Forcing a "please" or an "ask nicely"
Marla B.
Today, my 5 yo. had a dr.s visit for an eye irritation (and no, it was not from falling off the roof LOL, just kidding). We've been going to this dr. since my first child was 7 days old. We really like him and his attitude. He's very gentle and open-minded about most things (such as vaccines and such). He also has no wait, is nearby (living out in the country this is impt.), and gives you all the time you need (really). However, today after about 20 minutes or more of eye tests (covering eyes, reading letters, etc.) my dd said she wanted a sticker (as is the normal ending of every visit). The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was it. He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely." This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely.
This dr. has too many positives to get rid of him, but he wasn't respectful of dd. Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). I tried to explain our philosophy, but didn't do the best job of it.
Thanks!
Marla
This dr. has too many positives to get rid of him, but he wasn't respectful of dd. Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). I tried to explain our philosophy, but didn't do the best job of it.
Thanks!
Marla
Amy
I don't see the problem here.
The Doctor had a prerequisite for giving out presents; that he be asked in a manner he felt was polite. Specifically, for people to say 'please' when asking him for a gift.
Your daughter didn't say please. She still wanted the sticker.
You asked him to please give you a sticker, he gave you the sticker, you gave the sticker to your daughter.
Politeness is part of our social contract. He was not rude or mean to your child, he was amiable to you modeling polite behavior to get what your daughter wanted.
I do not require my children to ALWAYS say please to me when asking for something, but I do require that they speak to me nicely. This is my personal standard. It is not child specific. However, when someone asks me to do something for them and says please they do get faster friendly service from me. To me, this is human nature and my children have picked up on it.
When we are out in public and my children want something from someone who seems reticent I will throw out the parental "Remember to ask nicely and say please" and almost without failure the reluctant person happily becomes my partner in modeling polite behavior to my children.
I have made it a point while waiting in line, generally out in public and even in movies; to point out children modeling different behaviors and their rates of success in getting what they wanted.
I've discovered it's even a common theme in childrens' fairy tales. If you take notice the impolite child often comes to harm.
Instructions
by Neil Gaiman
Touch the wooden gate in the wall you never saw before.
Say "please" before you open the latch,
go through,
walk down the path.
A red metal imp hangs from the green-painted front door,
as a knocker,
do not touch it; it will bite your fingers.
Walk through the house. Take nothing. Eat nothing.
However, if any creature tells you that it hungers,
feed it.
If it tells you that it is dirty,
clean it.
If it cries to you that it hurts,
if you can,
ease its pain.
From the back garden you will be able to see the wild wood.
The deep well you walk past leads to Winter's realm;
there is another land at the bottom of it.
If you turn around here,
you can walk back, safely;
you will lose no face. I will think no less of you.
Once through the garden you will be in the wood.
The trees are old. Eyes peer from the under-
growth.
Beneath a twisted oak sits an old woman. She may ask for something;
give it to her.
She will point the way to the castle.
Inside it are three princesses.
Do not trust the youngest. Walk on.
In the clearing beyond the castle the twelve months sit about a fire,
warming their feet, exchanging tales.
They may do favors for you, if you are polite.
You may pick strawberries in December's frost.
Trust the wolves, but do not tell them where
you are going.
The river can be crossed by the ferry. The ferry-
man will take you.
(The answer to his question is this:
If he hands the oar to his passenger, he will be free to
leave the boat.
Only tell him this from a safe distance.)
If an eagle gives you a feather, keep it safe.
Remember: that giants sleep too soundly; that
witches are often betrayed by their appetites;
dragons have one soft spot, somewhere, always;
hearts can be well-hidden,
and you betray them with your tongue.
Do not be jealous of your sister.
Know that diamonds and roses
are as uncomfortable when they tumble from
one's lips as toads and frogs:
colder, too, and sharper, and they cut.
Remember your name.
Do not lose hope — what you seek will be found.
Trust ghosts. Trust those that you have helped
to help you in their turn.
Trust dreams.
Trust your heart, and trust your story.
When you come back, return the way you came.
Favors will be returned, debts will be repaid.
Do not forget your manners.
Do not look back.
Ride the wise eagle (you shall not fall).
Ride the silver fish (you will not drown).
Ride the grey wolf (hold tightly to his fur).
There is a worm at the heart of the tower; that is
why it will not stand.
When you reach the little house, the place your journey started,
you will recognize it, although it will seem
much smaller than you remember.
Walk up the path, and through the garden gate
you never saw before but once.
And then go home. Or make a home.
And rest.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Doctor had a prerequisite for giving out presents; that he be asked in a manner he felt was polite. Specifically, for people to say 'please' when asking him for a gift.
Your daughter didn't say please. She still wanted the sticker.
You asked him to please give you a sticker, he gave you the sticker, you gave the sticker to your daughter.
Politeness is part of our social contract. He was not rude or mean to your child, he was amiable to you modeling polite behavior to get what your daughter wanted.
I do not require my children to ALWAYS say please to me when asking for something, but I do require that they speak to me nicely. This is my personal standard. It is not child specific. However, when someone asks me to do something for them and says please they do get faster friendly service from me. To me, this is human nature and my children have picked up on it.
When we are out in public and my children want something from someone who seems reticent I will throw out the parental "Remember to ask nicely and say please" and almost without failure the reluctant person happily becomes my partner in modeling polite behavior to my children.
I have made it a point while waiting in line, generally out in public and even in movies; to point out children modeling different behaviors and their rates of success in getting what they wanted.
I've discovered it's even a common theme in childrens' fairy tales. If you take notice the impolite child often comes to harm.
Instructions
by Neil Gaiman
Touch the wooden gate in the wall you never saw before.
Say "please" before you open the latch,
go through,
walk down the path.
A red metal imp hangs from the green-painted front door,
as a knocker,
do not touch it; it will bite your fingers.
Walk through the house. Take nothing. Eat nothing.
However, if any creature tells you that it hungers,
feed it.
If it tells you that it is dirty,
clean it.
If it cries to you that it hurts,
if you can,
ease its pain.
From the back garden you will be able to see the wild wood.
The deep well you walk past leads to Winter's realm;
there is another land at the bottom of it.
If you turn around here,
you can walk back, safely;
you will lose no face. I will think no less of you.
Once through the garden you will be in the wood.
The trees are old. Eyes peer from the under-
growth.
Beneath a twisted oak sits an old woman. She may ask for something;
give it to her.
She will point the way to the castle.
Inside it are three princesses.
Do not trust the youngest. Walk on.
In the clearing beyond the castle the twelve months sit about a fire,
warming their feet, exchanging tales.
They may do favors for you, if you are polite.
You may pick strawberries in December's frost.
Trust the wolves, but do not tell them where
you are going.
The river can be crossed by the ferry. The ferry-
man will take you.
(The answer to his question is this:
If he hands the oar to his passenger, he will be free to
leave the boat.
Only tell him this from a safe distance.)
If an eagle gives you a feather, keep it safe.
Remember: that giants sleep too soundly; that
witches are often betrayed by their appetites;
dragons have one soft spot, somewhere, always;
hearts can be well-hidden,
and you betray them with your tongue.
Do not be jealous of your sister.
Know that diamonds and roses
are as uncomfortable when they tumble from
one's lips as toads and frogs:
colder, too, and sharper, and they cut.
Remember your name.
Do not lose hope — what you seek will be found.
Trust ghosts. Trust those that you have helped
to help you in their turn.
Trust dreams.
Trust your heart, and trust your story.
When you come back, return the way you came.
Favors will be returned, debts will be repaid.
Do not forget your manners.
Do not look back.
Ride the wise eagle (you shall not fall).
Ride the silver fish (you will not drown).
Ride the grey wolf (hold tightly to his fur).
There is a worm at the heart of the tower; that is
why it will not stand.
When you reach the little house, the place your journey started,
you will recognize it, although it will seem
much smaller than you remember.
Walk up the path, and through the garden gate
you never saw before but once.
And then go home. Or make a home.
And rest.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
Marla~
What if you bring your *own* stash of stickers, and at the
end of a next visit, sweetly offer one to dd?
YMMV,
Kelly Sturman
http://kelly-livingjoyfully.blogspot.com
What if you bring your *own* stash of stickers, and at the
end of a next visit, sweetly offer one to dd?
YMMV,
Kelly Sturman
http://kelly-livingjoyfully.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Marla B." <marla@...> wrote:
> Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). I tried to explain our philosophy, but didn't do the best job of it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Marla
>
amandabpearl
Maybe for this specific situation, you could visit the store immediately pre or post visit and let her choose her own stickers, or if you live in a remote area where that's not possible, just keep some stickers around the house for her, and bring them to the visit with you...not sure how to deal with the Dr issue, since you've explained it to him before; maybe talk to him about it before the consult begins and not in front of your daughter, so that he doesn't feel like he's being "ganged up on" (even though he's obviously not) or in a power struggle...
Brad Holcomb
> The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn'tit.
> believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was
> He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely."Next time, just say Please on behalf of your child and be done with it. If
> This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until
> he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely.
someone does something nice for your daughter, just say Thank You on her
behalf, before it even gets to the person saying, "What do you say?" to your
child, prodding them for a Thank You. That's Modeling, in my understanding
of the word. I'm Modeling how to ask nicely when I ask my child nicely to
get me a glass of water, or to turn down the TV volume, or when I ask my
wife nicely to help me cook something. Having my child as an audience while
I argue with someone is Modeling how to argue with someone.
Why do you think the doctor would be interested in hearing, much less
adopting, your philosophy, personal beliefs, and views of how life "should"
work or how people "should" ask for and receive gifts or rewards? Getting
into that missionary/preacher/teacher mentality doesn't serve the doctor, or
you. And it definitely doesn't help your child learn how to interact with
others nicely, lovingly, and peacefully.
Putting energy into converting another person to my beliefs and ways seems
like energy better spent on inquiring into my own reaction to what I see in
them. Every person in my world is a mirror into myself. I have spent a
*TON* of time in my life trying to Fix the Mirror by helping the other
person see the error of their way, just as you were doing with your family
doctor. Turns out, it's none of my business what they believe and how they
act, and my attempts to Fix the Mirror were simply ways to avoid looking at
my own inner Self, blaming the other for the image of me that I wasn't
enjoying. My child has witnessed me modeling missionary/preacher/teacher
mode far too many times...but less and less lately, thankfully.
A great book to help with more intense personal inquiry is Byron Katie's
Loving What Is. It's astounding the growth and understanding and healing
I'm reaching as I learn to mind my own business and stop trying to show
others I'm right, or more aware, or in any way farther along the path than
they are, in any area of life. This book has been absolutely essential in
deschooling myself.
http://www.amazon.com/Loving-What-Four-Questions-Change/dp/1400045371
-=b.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org
Jeff Sabo
Wouldn't simply stating something like "our family prefers not to put conditions on gifts" work? We've done this plenty of times in similar situations, and it's hard for the offerer to refute. When we do this, I don't see it as an attempt to convince or influence the doctor/teacher/cashier/whatever about the validity of my belief system, but as a simple statement of our beliefs. I should be able to tell someone "I don't eat meat" without getting into an argument about the benefits of being a vegetarian.
Personally, I wouldn't want to model "please" and "thank you" unless I was authentically thankful about something; otherwise, it seems a bit manipulative, I think. We've been in this exact situation before and have never handled as well initially as we wanted to, but pulling the person aside and telling them that we prefer to gift unconditionally is where we often end up.
Personally, I wouldn't want to model "please" and "thank you" unless I was authentically thankful about something; otherwise, it seems a bit manipulative, I think. We've been in this exact situation before and have never handled as well initially as we wanted to, but pulling the person aside and telling them that we prefer to gift unconditionally is where we often end up.
--- On Tue, 3/31/09, Marla B. <marla@...> wrote:
From: Marla B. <marla@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Forcing a "please" or an "ask nicely"
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 4:15 PM
Today, my 5 yo. had a dr.s visit for an eye irritation (and no, it was not from falling off the roof LOL, just kidding). We've been going to this dr. since my first child was 7 days old. We really like him and his attitude. He's very gentle and open-minded about most things (such as vaccines and such). He also has no wait, is nearby (living out in the country this is impt.), and gives you all the time you need (really). However, today after about 20 minutes or more of eye tests (covering eyes, reading letters, etc.) my dd said she wanted a sticker (as is the normal ending of every visit). The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was it. He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely." This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely.
This dr. has too many positives to get rid of him, but he wasn't respectful of dd. Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). I tried to explain our philosophy, but didn't do the best job of it.
Thanks!
Marla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marla B.
>I did say please to the dr, but he would only accept it from my dd.
> Next time, just say Please on behalf of your child and be done with it.
>Having my child as an audience whileI don't feel I was arguing with him, I was just supporting my dd's needs and just giving him some insight into how we did things differently. I wasn't asking him to change his beliefs (I would never do that of anyone unless they were physically hurting someone or something like that), but maybe respect those of me and my 5 yo., even if ours are different.
> I argue with someone is Modeling how to argue with someone.
>As I said above, I didn't need him to adopt my values, though maybe I have to reread my original post, as maybe I implied that, though I didn't mean to. I just felt I was helping him by letting him know where my dd was coming from.
> Why do you think the doctor would be interested in hearing, much less
> adopting, your philosophy, personal beliefs, and views of how life "should"
> work or how people "should" ask for and receive gifts or rewards?
Getting
> into that missionary/preacher/teacher mentality doesn't serve the doctor, orI admit, you're pointing out the missionary, preacher/ teacher mentality is helpful. I think I did speak of these things in a kind and thoughtful way, though. But I will consider this more in the future.
> you. And it definitely doesn't help your child learn how to interact with
> others nicely, lovingly, and peacefully.
>I totally agree. I think everyone has a right to their own beliefs, that's fine with me. Some of my closest friends are mom's of public schoolers. I don't care what they believe, as long as it isn't hurting someone in an abusive way. I'm also a unitarian universalist, so I really am open to everyones ideals. I don't want people forcing theirs on me and I wouldn't force mine on them. As I said, I don't think I was trying to convert him, just giving him insight so he may better understand me and my child.
> Putting energy into converting another person to my beliefs and ways seems
> like energy better spent on inquiring into my own reaction to what I see in
> them. Every person in my world is a mirror into myself. I have spent a
> *TON* of time in my life trying to Fix the Mirror by helping the other
> person see the error of their way, just as you were doing with your family
> doctor. Turns out, it's none of my business what they believe and how they
> act, and my attempts to Fix the Mirror were simply ways to avoid looking at
> my own inner Self, blaming the other for the image of me that I wasn't
> enjoying.
>A great book to help with more intense personal inquiry is Byron Katie'sI agree, it is a wonderful book!
> Loving What Is.
Thanks for all your ideas!
Marla
Faith Void
Today, my 5 yo. had a dr.s visit for an eye irritation (and no, it was not
from falling off the roof LOL, just kidding). We've been going to this dr.
since my first child was 7 days old. We really like him and his attitude.
He's very gentle and open-minded about most things (such as vaccines and
such). He also has no wait, is nearby (living out in the country this is
impt.), and gives you all the time you need (really). However, today after
about 20 minutes or more of eye tests (covering eyes, reading letters, etc.)
my dd said she wanted a sticker (as is the normal ending of every visit).
The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't
believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was
it. He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely."
This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until
he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely.
***I agree that saying "please" and being polite and respectful is a
wonderful way to be. I try my best to be that way. I hope that my children
see that and choose to be that way as well. I find it very helpful in
communicating with others. I want them to succeed and feel comfortable
relating socially.
I give my children information. I let them know that some people need to
hear certain words or phrases to feel respected. "Please" "your welcome"
"thank you" etc. I try to help them understand that those are words that
people understand to mean certain things (and I tell them what they mean). I
don't force or coerce my children into saying them.
In this situation I would have first said "please" for my child or asked the
Dr. if he meant "please?"
If that didn't work for the doctor, I would have explained quietly to my
child that some people feel like "please" is a magic word to show them that
the person who wants something is being courteous. I would have allowed my
child to think that over and decide whether they wanted to do that for a
sticker. I would have perhaps offered to get my child a sticker elsewhere,
if they felt uncomfortable saying "please" in this situation.
If they chose to or not that would have been fine. I would have explained to
my child later in the car or at home more in depth if they wanted or needed
me to.
As long as the Dr wasn't saying anything harmful to my child I would not
have said anything to him. I have always tried to keep things between me and
my kids. I am concerned about my children's well being not the Dr.'s
philosophies. I don't try to change people (anymore). I want my children to
have the skills to cope in many situations and I am right there with them
through each incident.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
his intentions were to harm her. I am not sure what you were trying to prove
by saying anything to him. I may have spoke to him privately but not in
front of my child. I try to be courteous of where people are in there life.
If this were a family member and this happened frequently, I may use a
different approach.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from falling off the roof LOL, just kidding). We've been going to this dr.
since my first child was 7 days old. We really like him and his attitude.
He's very gentle and open-minded about most things (such as vaccines and
such). He also has no wait, is nearby (living out in the country this is
impt.), and gives you all the time you need (really). However, today after
about 20 minutes or more of eye tests (covering eyes, reading letters, etc.)
my dd said she wanted a sticker (as is the normal ending of every visit).
The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't
believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was
it. He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely."
This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until
he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely.
***I agree that saying "please" and being polite and respectful is a
wonderful way to be. I try my best to be that way. I hope that my children
see that and choose to be that way as well. I find it very helpful in
communicating with others. I want them to succeed and feel comfortable
relating socially.
I give my children information. I let them know that some people need to
hear certain words or phrases to feel respected. "Please" "your welcome"
"thank you" etc. I try to help them understand that those are words that
people understand to mean certain things (and I tell them what they mean). I
don't force or coerce my children into saying them.
In this situation I would have first said "please" for my child or asked the
Dr. if he meant "please?"
If that didn't work for the doctor, I would have explained quietly to my
child that some people feel like "please" is a magic word to show them that
the person who wants something is being courteous. I would have allowed my
child to think that over and decide whether they wanted to do that for a
sticker. I would have perhaps offered to get my child a sticker elsewhere,
if they felt uncomfortable saying "please" in this situation.
If they chose to or not that would have been fine. I would have explained to
my child later in the car or at home more in depth if they wanted or needed
me to.
As long as the Dr wasn't saying anything harmful to my child I would not
have said anything to him. I have always tried to keep things between me and
my kids. I am concerned about my children's well being not the Dr.'s
philosophies. I don't try to change people (anymore). I want my children to
have the skills to cope in many situations and I am right there with them
through each incident.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> This dr. has too many positives to get rid of him, but he wasn't respectful***I think he was condescending in talking like that but I don't think that
> of dd. Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened
> before, it just really persisted for too long). I tried to explain our
> philosophy, but didn't do the best job of it.
>
>
his intentions were to harm her. I am not sure what you were trying to prove
by saying anything to him. I may have spoke to him privately but not in
front of my child. I try to be courteous of where people are in there life.
If this were a family member and this happened frequently, I may use a
different approach.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Thanks
>
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
>>>Having my child as an audience whileI don't feel I was arguing with him, I was just supporting my dd's needs and
> I argue with someone is Modeling how to argue with someone.
just giving him some insight into how we did things differently. I wasn't
asking him to change his beliefs (I would never do that of anyone unless
they were physically hurting someone or something like that), but maybe
respect those of me and my 5 yo., even if ours are different.
*** I am thinking that there are a few other ways to support your dd without
involving the doctor. One being to speak directly to your child about the
situation. Tell you child what the doctor expects of her. Allow her to work
through and decide whether she wants to performs as asked.
I would not let it drag on between them too long. She is too young and needs
you guidance. I think living your principles come through loud and clear, no
need to lecture the doctor (or anyone)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>in
> Putting energy into converting another person to my beliefs and ways seems
> like energy better spent on inquiring into my own reaction to what I see
> them. Every person in my world is a mirror into myself. I have spent aat
> *TON* of time in my life trying to Fix the Mirror by helping the other
> person see the error of their way, just as you were doing with your family
> doctor. Turns out, it's none of my business what they believe and how they
> act, and my attempts to Fix the Mirror were simply ways to avoid looking
> my own inner Self, blaming the other for the image of me that I wasn'tI totally agree. I think everyone has a right to their own beliefs, that's
> enjoying.
fine with me. Some of my closest friends are mom's of public schoolers. I
don't care what they believe, as long as it isn't hurting someone in an
abusive way. I'm also a unitarian universalist, so I really am open to
everyones ideals. I don't want people forcing theirs on me and I wouldn't
force mine on them. As I said, I don't think I was trying to convert him,
just giving him insight so he may better understand me and my child.
*** perhaps this would be better done outside the heat of the moment. I
would have intervened and spoke directly to my child. I find it more helpful
to guide my children through understanding other peoples ways then trying to
get them to understand mine. If it is really bad (and you say it isn't) I
end the relationship.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laurie Wolfrum
It seems your child's dr will continue to require a "please" for the sticker. Although I totally agree with parents modeling "manners" (not telling them to say please/thank you) there are people out there in our culture who will require a "please" in order to get something (these people usually seem to do it to kids which is so insulting). What can we do? We can show our kids how we handle situations like this where people have different opinions, values, etc than ourselves.
Explain that many people in our culture like using/hearing a thank you and please and how some people expect it (especially with kids for some reason....perhaps they think they are "teaching" our kids manners?? And yet demanding children to say certain words is not teaching anything kind!). Others are happy to provide or help by a sincere request even w/o a "please." Before the next appointment go over that again and explain to your daughter that her dr requires a "please" to get a sticker. Explain why you don't like the dr doing that. But do give your child a choice whether or not she wants to jump through hoops to get the sticker. You could even tell your daughter that *you* would decide not to have a sticker if it was required that you say please. You could even tell your daughter that you will buy her a special sticker after the appointment instead if she wishes or just bring one to the appointment.
Laurie
Explain that many people in our culture like using/hearing a thank you and please and how some people expect it (especially with kids for some reason....perhaps they think they are "teaching" our kids manners?? And yet demanding children to say certain words is not teaching anything kind!). Others are happy to provide or help by a sincere request even w/o a "please." Before the next appointment go over that again and explain to your daughter that her dr requires a "please" to get a sticker. Explain why you don't like the dr doing that. But do give your child a choice whether or not she wants to jump through hoops to get the sticker. You could even tell your daughter that *you* would decide not to have a sticker if it was required that you say please. You could even tell your daughter that you will buy her a special sticker after the appointment instead if she wishes or just bring one to the appointment.
Laurie
Ren Allen
~~
I don't see the problem here.
The Doctor had a prerequisite for giving out presents; that he be asked in a manner he felt was polite. Specifically, for people to say 'please' when asking him for a gift.
Your daughter didn't say please. She still wanted the sticker.~~
She didn't ask for the gift, he offered it yet wanted a forced "please" along with it...not much of a gift is it?
You don't see a problem with forcing a child to say something when they don't feel like it? REally? If it's ok to treat a child that way, they it would be acceptable to treat an adult that way. YOu don't see adults holding things out and saying "say please and I'll give it to you".
Icky.
The best thing in that situation would have been for the doctor to accept the mother's "please" in place of the child's. The child is having the societal expectation modeled yet being respected for exactly where she was at in the moment. I certainly wouldn't say "please" if someone tried to force it upon me!
Children learn these societal expectations just fine...eventually. Being treated rudely in order to learn manners is ridiculous. People really should think more about how they'd treat an adult friend and if it would seem uncomfortable to treat a friend that way, don't treat a child in the same manner.
Not because children are adults, nor should they be expected to act/think as such. But because they deserve the same respect and dignity as adults.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I don't see the problem here.
The Doctor had a prerequisite for giving out presents; that he be asked in a manner he felt was polite. Specifically, for people to say 'please' when asking him for a gift.
Your daughter didn't say please. She still wanted the sticker.~~
She didn't ask for the gift, he offered it yet wanted a forced "please" along with it...not much of a gift is it?
You don't see a problem with forcing a child to say something when they don't feel like it? REally? If it's ok to treat a child that way, they it would be acceptable to treat an adult that way. YOu don't see adults holding things out and saying "say please and I'll give it to you".
Icky.
The best thing in that situation would have been for the doctor to accept the mother's "please" in place of the child's. The child is having the societal expectation modeled yet being respected for exactly where she was at in the moment. I certainly wouldn't say "please" if someone tried to force it upon me!
Children learn these societal expectations just fine...eventually. Being treated rudely in order to learn manners is ridiculous. People really should think more about how they'd treat an adult friend and if it would seem uncomfortable to treat a friend that way, don't treat a child in the same manner.
Not because children are adults, nor should they be expected to act/think as such. But because they deserve the same respect and dignity as adults.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Marla B.
Awesome idea, Kelly! That's something I will definitely do next time.
Thanks!
Marla
a--- In [email protected], "kelly_sturman" <kelly_sturman@...> wrote:
Thanks!
Marla
a--- In [email protected], "kelly_sturman" <kelly_sturman@...> wrote:
>
> Marla~
>
> What if you bring your *own* stash of stickers, and at the
> end of a next visit, sweetly offer one to dd?
>
> YMMV,
>
> Kelly Sturman
> http://kelly-livingjoyfully.blogspot.com
>
> --- In [email protected], "Marla B." <marla@> wrote:
> > Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). I tried to explain our philosophy, but didn't do the best job of it.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Marla
> >
>
Amy
"She didn't ask for the gift, he offered it yet wanted a forced "please" along with it...not much of a gift is it?"
That's not how I read the story from the original poster. If he had offered her the sticker then she wouldn't be asking for it at all, she would be in the position to say "Thank you for the gift"
Original poster quote
"my dd said she wanted a sticker (as is the normal ending of every visit). The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was it. He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely." This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely."
*******
"You don't see a problem with forcing a child to say something when they
don't feel like it? REally? If it's ok to treat a child that way, they
it would be acceptable to treat an adult that way. YOu don't see adults
holding things out and saying "say please and I'll give it to you".
Icky."
He didn't force her to say something she didn't want to. Not giving her a sticker is not forcing anything, it's withholding.
He did give the sticker to the Mother after she asked him politely.
It is common for people to treat both adults and children in this way. It's called manipulation and it's rife in our society.
I do see adults hold things out and say "Say please and I'll give it to you." those adults are being condescending and that's on the gracious end of manipulation. Usually an adult who is demanding and rude is not given the courtesy of a reminder to be polite they are simply told "No".
*******
"I certainly wouldn't say "please" if someone tried to force it upon me!
Children learn these societal expectations just fine...eventually.
Being treated rudely in order to learn manners is ridiculous. People
really should think more about how they'd treat an adult friend and if
it would seem uncomfortable to treat a friend that way, don't treat a
child in the same manner.
Not because children are adults, nor should they be expected to
act/think as such. But because they deserve the same respect and
dignity as adults."
You would be making an informed decision. You are completely aware of the inherent social contract in the community you live in. You can also discern when a "Please" is appropriate or not and when someone is aggressively manipulating you. Again force and withholding two different things. Children are still learning how to navigate proper etiquette in society and therefore are given more opportunities for learning and practice than an adult is. They are given a grace period that an adult has already passed.
I think our major disagreement isn't in the Childs behavior but in the Doctors. I see his request for her to say please as gentle reminder, a courtesy, teaching her that there is a way to phrase her desires that will garner the help she wants in reaching her goals.
You see it as overly manipulative and rude. As nether of us was actually there it's impossible to say who's right.
When my children tell me; "I want ice cream." I say "Great! Thanks for telling me" IF there's ice cream in the freezer they are welcome to it. If there's not or they need help, they come back to me and ASK "Can you help me get ice cream?"
A statement of want is not the same as a request for help.
IF my children say "Get me ice cream." or in Oobie speak "ICE CREAM <point point>" I say "I'm not going to help you when you speak to me like that. Would you like to try again?"
Yes, both of us are being manipulative, not in a bad way, in a learning way. They are manipulating me into handing them ice cream and I am manipulating them into speaking to me in a way fitting of a person they love and respect. I speak to them with exactly the same love and respect. Kids do what works. Fortunately for my children what works in my house also works out in the world at large.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's not how I read the story from the original poster. If he had offered her the sticker then she wouldn't be asking for it at all, she would be in the position to say "Thank you for the gift"
Original poster quote
"my dd said she wanted a sticker (as is the normal ending of every visit). The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was it. He persisted and wouldn't give her a sticker unless she asked "nicely." This went back and forth several times (I'm talking several minutes) until he finally gave me a sticker for asking nicely."
*******
"You don't see a problem with forcing a child to say something when they
don't feel like it? REally? If it's ok to treat a child that way, they
it would be acceptable to treat an adult that way. YOu don't see adults
holding things out and saying "say please and I'll give it to you".
Icky."
He didn't force her to say something she didn't want to. Not giving her a sticker is not forcing anything, it's withholding.
He did give the sticker to the Mother after she asked him politely.
It is common for people to treat both adults and children in this way. It's called manipulation and it's rife in our society.
I do see adults hold things out and say "Say please and I'll give it to you." those adults are being condescending and that's on the gracious end of manipulation. Usually an adult who is demanding and rude is not given the courtesy of a reminder to be polite they are simply told "No".
*******
"I certainly wouldn't say "please" if someone tried to force it upon me!
Children learn these societal expectations just fine...eventually.
Being treated rudely in order to learn manners is ridiculous. People
really should think more about how they'd treat an adult friend and if
it would seem uncomfortable to treat a friend that way, don't treat a
child in the same manner.
Not because children are adults, nor should they be expected to
act/think as such. But because they deserve the same respect and
dignity as adults."
You would be making an informed decision. You are completely aware of the inherent social contract in the community you live in. You can also discern when a "Please" is appropriate or not and when someone is aggressively manipulating you. Again force and withholding two different things. Children are still learning how to navigate proper etiquette in society and therefore are given more opportunities for learning and practice than an adult is. They are given a grace period that an adult has already passed.
I think our major disagreement isn't in the Childs behavior but in the Doctors. I see his request for her to say please as gentle reminder, a courtesy, teaching her that there is a way to phrase her desires that will garner the help she wants in reaching her goals.
You see it as overly manipulative and rude. As nether of us was actually there it's impossible to say who's right.
When my children tell me; "I want ice cream." I say "Great! Thanks for telling me" IF there's ice cream in the freezer they are welcome to it. If there's not or they need help, they come back to me and ASK "Can you help me get ice cream?"
A statement of want is not the same as a request for help.
IF my children say "Get me ice cream." or in Oobie speak "ICE CREAM <point point>" I say "I'm not going to help you when you speak to me like that. Would you like to try again?"
Yes, both of us are being manipulative, not in a bad way, in a learning way. They are manipulating me into handing them ice cream and I am manipulating them into speaking to me in a way fitting of a person they love and respect. I speak to them with exactly the same love and respect. Kids do what works. Fortunately for my children what works in my house also works out in the world at large.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
N CONFER
Oh, I like this solution! "No thanks, we have our own."
Much better than the answer I was thinking of -- telling the doctor where to stick his sticker.
Nance
*********
Marla~
What if you bring your *own* stash of stickers, and at the
end of a next visit, sweetly offer one to dd?
YMMV,
Kelly Sturman
http://kelly- livingjoyfully. blogspot. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Much better than the answer I was thinking of -- telling the doctor where to stick his sticker.
Nance
*********
Marla~
What if you bring your *own* stash of stickers, and at the
end of a next visit, sweetly offer one to dd?
YMMV,
Kelly Sturman
http://kelly- livingjoyfully. blogspot. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad Holcomb
> I do not require my children to ALWAYS say please to me when askingHow do you "require" them to speak to you nicely? If they're not in the mood to be nice, you don't give them what they ask? You give it to them, but with a reminder to ask nicely next time?
> for something, but I do require that they speak to me nicely.
> This is my personal standard. It is not child specific. However,I've noticed that when my 4 y/o son is in a mood where he's less likely to say Please or Thank You, or is simply busy with his play or other things and too distracted to say Please, that's the time that me acting *more* quickly and *more* friendly when he asks for something strengthens our relationship and keeps communication open and flowing. Behavior is communication of my son's internal world, so I have no desire to squelch negativity or mold him to act the way I want.
> when someone asks me to do something for them and says please
> they do get faster friendly service from me.
The above quote struck me as similar to "I reward good behavior with faster and more friendly service, and punish poor behavior by responding more slowly with non-friendly service." I'm not sure if that was the writer's intent. If so, it could have a negative effect in your relationships and hinder unschooling. It feels like behavior modification techniques on some level, to me.
-=b.
Ren Allen
~~The above quote struck me as similar to "I reward good behavior with faster and more friendly service, and punish poor behavior by responding more slowly with bnon-friendly service." ~~
I agree Brad.
Often the child who is grumpy or acting "rudely" is the child that needs the most kindness, the most patient/friendly parent. Rewards and punishments are harmful and aren't the best way to foster healthy relationships.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I agree Brad.
Often the child who is grumpy or acting "rudely" is the child that needs the most kindness, the most patient/friendly parent. Rewards and punishments are harmful and aren't the best way to foster healthy relationships.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~He didn't force her to say something she didn't want to. Not giving her a sticker is not forcing anything, it's withholding.~~
I should have said "TRYING to force it". Bribery isn't a great way to "teach" manners.
If you're here to defend mainstream treatment of children, be prepared for an in-depth discussion. This list exists to examine the treatment of children and discuss ways that can foster MORE respect, more kindness and more partnership oriented relationships with children.
Trying to force a "please" is so rude really. I'm trying to think of a SINGLE incident as an adult, in which someone tried to make me say "please" for any reason whatsover. I can't think of ONE.
At work, if I want a mint that a co-worker might have (thinking of an example that comes up frequently) the exchange usually goes something like: "Hey Misty, can I have one of your mints?"
"sure, go ahead"
"Thanks!"
NObody manipulates anyone to ask a certain way. It's really NOT acceptable for adults to treat each other that way in our society. If an adult withheld something from another adult and tried to extract a "please" it would seem VERY strange.
Children are often treated as inferior beings, who need to be molded and "taught" but we're here to talk about a different way to BE and live with children. Trying to manipulate manners is just one such thing we question and try to find better solutions for.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I should have said "TRYING to force it". Bribery isn't a great way to "teach" manners.
If you're here to defend mainstream treatment of children, be prepared for an in-depth discussion. This list exists to examine the treatment of children and discuss ways that can foster MORE respect, more kindness and more partnership oriented relationships with children.
Trying to force a "please" is so rude really. I'm trying to think of a SINGLE incident as an adult, in which someone tried to make me say "please" for any reason whatsover. I can't think of ONE.
At work, if I want a mint that a co-worker might have (thinking of an example that comes up frequently) the exchange usually goes something like: "Hey Misty, can I have one of your mints?"
"sure, go ahead"
"Thanks!"
NObody manipulates anyone to ask a certain way. It's really NOT acceptable for adults to treat each other that way in our society. If an adult withheld something from another adult and tried to extract a "please" it would seem VERY strange.
Children are often treated as inferior beings, who need to be molded and "taught" but we're here to talk about a different way to BE and live with children. Trying to manipulate manners is just one such thing we question and try to find better solutions for.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Deb Lewis
***This dr. has too many positives to get rid of him, but he wasn't respectful of dd.***
And if you tried to argue him out of his belief that wasn't respectful either.
It's his sticker, and if you want it, you get it under his conditions. Other people don't *have to* give you or your daughter gifts or rewards under *your* conditions. There is no part of the unschooling philosophy that exempts unschoolers or their kids from common courtesy. <g>
***Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). ***
Tell your daughter that if she wants a sticker, the doctor expects her to say "please." It's a good thing to know as most of the people she will meet her whole life long will have a similar expectation.
The subject line is "forcing a "please..." There was no force. She could have declined the sticker. (In which case it would have been polite to say "no, thank you." )<g>
You might stop and get some stickers on your way to the doctor's office next time so that a sticker from the doctor isn't an issue.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And if you tried to argue him out of his belief that wasn't respectful either.
It's his sticker, and if you want it, you get it under his conditions. Other people don't *have to* give you or your daughter gifts or rewards under *your* conditions. There is no part of the unschooling philosophy that exempts unschoolers or their kids from common courtesy. <g>
***Any ideas on how to deal with this issue in the future (it's happened before, it just really persisted for too long). ***
Tell your daughter that if she wants a sticker, the doctor expects her to say "please." It's a good thing to know as most of the people she will meet her whole life long will have a similar expectation.
The subject line is "forcing a "please..." There was no force. She could have declined the sticker. (In which case it would have been polite to say "no, thank you." )<g>
You might stop and get some stickers on your way to the doctor's office next time so that a sticker from the doctor isn't an issue.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
The dr. said for her to say the magic word. I told him that we didn't believe in a magic word, but that we modeled ways to ask and that that was it.
******
I have a problem with the statement "we don't believe in a magic word". YOU don't believe in a magic word. But you're doctor does. What about Abracadabra? Is that a magic word? Who knows what your daughter thinks of magic words.
I simply would have said something like "oh... I don't think I've ever referred to it that way, she might not know what your asking." You know, or let her know that he was asking her to say please. Really it is up to your daughter whether she wants to say please or not. When you said "we don't believe" you projected onto her that it would not be good to say "please" even though she may have been perfectly fine with his request. I suppose it depends how badly she wanted that sticker.
The doctor wasn't asking you what you believe. He was asking your daughter to say please. As condescending as it may have seemed to you, it is very common behavior in society and you will likely come across it again.
You should be helping your daughter make choices based on information. "Dr. is asking you to say please if you want his sticker". If she doesn't want to say please, that is her right. If he doesn't want to give up the sticker, that is his. While it does seem silly to me for the doctor to require a please, you really complicated what sounds like a very simple situation.
******
******
I have a problem with the statement "we don't believe in a magic word". YOU don't believe in a magic word. But you're doctor does. What about Abracadabra? Is that a magic word? Who knows what your daughter thinks of magic words.
I simply would have said something like "oh... I don't think I've ever referred to it that way, she might not know what your asking." You know, or let her know that he was asking her to say please. Really it is up to your daughter whether she wants to say please or not. When you said "we don't believe" you projected onto her that it would not be good to say "please" even though she may have been perfectly fine with his request. I suppose it depends how badly she wanted that sticker.
The doctor wasn't asking you what you believe. He was asking your daughter to say please. As condescending as it may have seemed to you, it is very common behavior in society and you will likely come across it again.
You should be helping your daughter make choices based on information. "Dr. is asking you to say please if you want his sticker". If she doesn't want to say please, that is her right. If he doesn't want to give up the sticker, that is his. While it does seem silly to me for the doctor to require a please, you really complicated what sounds like a very simple situation.
******
Amy
"How do you "require" them to speak to you nicely? If they're not in the
mood to be nice, you don't give them what they ask? You give it to
them, but with a reminder to ask nicely next time?"
I think there is a subtle distinction between what some may consider "not being nice" and abuse. I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about rushing to the side of a tired or overstimulated or off mood person to help them get their needs met. I do not allow anyone (even my own mother) to scream at me, kick me, hit me, bite me, in order for me to go get them something. This first came up for me as a parent when my children where months old breast feeding and got teeth in. Occasionally they would become over excited, angry or sometimes just a burst of fiesty and bite me hard while breastfeeding, I would OUCH! (as a natural reaction not a manipulative ploy) remove my breast from their mouth and say in a firm but gentle voice that when you love someone you treat them with kindness, that I do not like to be bitten, biting is not being kind. What happened from an outside perspective is that IF you bite Mommy you don't get your num nums. After a few times I
didn't get bit anymore.
This could be construed as deliberate manipulation and if I had planned to scream Ouch! startle my child remove them from the breast and sooth with an explanation about being nice that would be true, however, it wasn't. The scenario played out from my honest gut reaction. To my understanding that puts it in the area of natural consequences.
When my children are simply out of sorts and yell at me to get them something... I can't think of a time that they did that recently... Ok last night they were both over tired, screaming and chasing each other through the house and literally running into walls out of tiredness. My husband and I had decided to watch a movie together and didn't realize that it was a 2 hr movie and not a 1hr movie. We were all well beyond tired. I had missed their cues. I had not been attentive enough and now I had to help them transition into sleep mode. I caught the youngest one to check her head after she had bounced off a wall and said probably too loudly "That's it! No more tag!" My husband came around the corner and said "Amy, they are really tired, you are really tired." I immediately changed my tone and said "Lets play GO TO SLEEP!" at which my children laughed. We made a game out of making up the bed (as it had recently been torn apart in play) We made a game out
of brushing their teeth. We sang a song about picking out books to read. Then I snuggled in between them while I read and then until after they fell well asleep.
"I've noticed that when my 4 y/o son is in a mood where he's less likely
to say Please or Thank You, or is simply busy with his play or other
things and too distracted to say Please, that's the time that me acting
*more* quickly and *more* friendly when he asks for something
strengthens our relationship and keeps communication open and flowing.
Behavior is communication of my son's internal world, so I have no
desire to squelch negativity or mold him to act the way I want.
The above quote struck me as similar to "I reward good behavior with
faster and more friendly service, and punish poor behavior by
responding more slowly with non-friendly service." I'm not sure if that
was the writer's intent. If so, it could have a negative effect in your
relationships and hinder unschooling. It feels like behavior
modification techniques on some level, to me."
I've never required my children to say please. I do let them know that a please is appreciated. We do also call it a 'magic word' because it can, out in the big wide world, change a no to yes. Also from the time my children were infants and I was holding up toys for them to choose, I would say "Yes, Please" or "No, Thank you" it has always been part of the response. It is how we speak in our house. When I ask my husband to grab me something while he's in the kitchen I say "Honey, could you please..." and when he brings me something I say thank you. When I ask the kids to grab something I say "Darling, could you please..." and then "thank you"
My children are never asked to repress their feelings. If they are angry they can be angry, or sad, or whatever. They do occasionally yell at me and I do occasionally yell at them, and then we apologize because yelling at someone is not very loving and I love them. I've never asked my children to apologize to me for yelling at me but they always do because I always have to them.
I am all for treating my children with loving kindess. I try very hard not to impose consequences upon them. They have complete freedom to eat, sleep, paint, scream and yell and snuggle as they feel the need. I do my best to help them recognize their own feelings and symptoms of being hungry or tired. If they have been playing and are getting cranky I will bring them a snack and notice out loud that sometimes when I get hungry I also get grumpy. When they are getting sleepy I say "Hey' you seem to be yawning and rubbing your eyes, are you feeling sleepy? do you want to go to bed and snuggle or do you want to rest out here in the living room?" when they are getting angry I say "My your voice is getting loud and your hands are clenched into balls you seem angry.Can I help you with something?"
Context is very important when we have these discussions. Behavior modification techniques were developed from watching cause and effect during interpersonal relationships between people. Behavior modification techniques fail because they take the underlying respect and love that drove those natural behaviors and distorts it with manipulation.
I want to address the topic of natural consequences. If you change the natural consequence of your childs action in the name of "safety" or "respect" are you really unschooling them? Or are you creating a false sense of the world around them just as surely as if you had created a punishment for them for something you felt was out of line?
I have gone out of my way to surround myself and my children with people who treat us with kindness and respect. This has occured naturally as a response to not allowing people to treat me with what I believe is abuse. I have done this so effectively that on the chance encounter I have with someone who believes that saying "Hey Jerkface, Whatcha been up to?" is a proper way to great friends or family member I am shocked and appalled. If it weren't for those random encounters I would have forgotten that some people use abusive language and hitting each other as terms of endearment. I wonder if this bubble is appropriate or if like the Prince/Princess kept in the castle my children will feel horribly mislead as to the reality of the world at large?
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mood to be nice, you don't give them what they ask? You give it to
them, but with a reminder to ask nicely next time?"
I think there is a subtle distinction between what some may consider "not being nice" and abuse. I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about rushing to the side of a tired or overstimulated or off mood person to help them get their needs met. I do not allow anyone (even my own mother) to scream at me, kick me, hit me, bite me, in order for me to go get them something. This first came up for me as a parent when my children where months old breast feeding and got teeth in. Occasionally they would become over excited, angry or sometimes just a burst of fiesty and bite me hard while breastfeeding, I would OUCH! (as a natural reaction not a manipulative ploy) remove my breast from their mouth and say in a firm but gentle voice that when you love someone you treat them with kindness, that I do not like to be bitten, biting is not being kind. What happened from an outside perspective is that IF you bite Mommy you don't get your num nums. After a few times I
didn't get bit anymore.
This could be construed as deliberate manipulation and if I had planned to scream Ouch! startle my child remove them from the breast and sooth with an explanation about being nice that would be true, however, it wasn't. The scenario played out from my honest gut reaction. To my understanding that puts it in the area of natural consequences.
When my children are simply out of sorts and yell at me to get them something... I can't think of a time that they did that recently... Ok last night they were both over tired, screaming and chasing each other through the house and literally running into walls out of tiredness. My husband and I had decided to watch a movie together and didn't realize that it was a 2 hr movie and not a 1hr movie. We were all well beyond tired. I had missed their cues. I had not been attentive enough and now I had to help them transition into sleep mode. I caught the youngest one to check her head after she had bounced off a wall and said probably too loudly "That's it! No more tag!" My husband came around the corner and said "Amy, they are really tired, you are really tired." I immediately changed my tone and said "Lets play GO TO SLEEP!" at which my children laughed. We made a game out of making up the bed (as it had recently been torn apart in play) We made a game out
of brushing their teeth. We sang a song about picking out books to read. Then I snuggled in between them while I read and then until after they fell well asleep.
"I've noticed that when my 4 y/o son is in a mood where he's less likely
to say Please or Thank You, or is simply busy with his play or other
things and too distracted to say Please, that's the time that me acting
*more* quickly and *more* friendly when he asks for something
strengthens our relationship and keeps communication open and flowing.
Behavior is communication of my son's internal world, so I have no
desire to squelch negativity or mold him to act the way I want.
The above quote struck me as similar to "I reward good behavior with
faster and more friendly service, and punish poor behavior by
responding more slowly with non-friendly service." I'm not sure if that
was the writer's intent. If so, it could have a negative effect in your
relationships and hinder unschooling. It feels like behavior
modification techniques on some level, to me."
I've never required my children to say please. I do let them know that a please is appreciated. We do also call it a 'magic word' because it can, out in the big wide world, change a no to yes. Also from the time my children were infants and I was holding up toys for them to choose, I would say "Yes, Please" or "No, Thank you" it has always been part of the response. It is how we speak in our house. When I ask my husband to grab me something while he's in the kitchen I say "Honey, could you please..." and when he brings me something I say thank you. When I ask the kids to grab something I say "Darling, could you please..." and then "thank you"
My children are never asked to repress their feelings. If they are angry they can be angry, or sad, or whatever. They do occasionally yell at me and I do occasionally yell at them, and then we apologize because yelling at someone is not very loving and I love them. I've never asked my children to apologize to me for yelling at me but they always do because I always have to them.
I am all for treating my children with loving kindess. I try very hard not to impose consequences upon them. They have complete freedom to eat, sleep, paint, scream and yell and snuggle as they feel the need. I do my best to help them recognize their own feelings and symptoms of being hungry or tired. If they have been playing and are getting cranky I will bring them a snack and notice out loud that sometimes when I get hungry I also get grumpy. When they are getting sleepy I say "Hey' you seem to be yawning and rubbing your eyes, are you feeling sleepy? do you want to go to bed and snuggle or do you want to rest out here in the living room?" when they are getting angry I say "My your voice is getting loud and your hands are clenched into balls you seem angry.Can I help you with something?"
Context is very important when we have these discussions. Behavior modification techniques were developed from watching cause and effect during interpersonal relationships between people. Behavior modification techniques fail because they take the underlying respect and love that drove those natural behaviors and distorts it with manipulation.
I want to address the topic of natural consequences. If you change the natural consequence of your childs action in the name of "safety" or "respect" are you really unschooling them? Or are you creating a false sense of the world around them just as surely as if you had created a punishment for them for something you felt was out of line?
I have gone out of my way to surround myself and my children with people who treat us with kindness and respect. This has occured naturally as a response to not allowing people to treat me with what I believe is abuse. I have done this so effectively that on the chance encounter I have with someone who believes that saying "Hey Jerkface, Whatcha been up to?" is a proper way to great friends or family member I am shocked and appalled. If it weren't for those random encounters I would have forgotten that some people use abusive language and hitting each other as terms of endearment. I wonder if this bubble is appropriate or if like the Prince/Princess kept in the castle my children will feel horribly mislead as to the reality of the world at large?
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy
"If you're here to defend mainstream treatment of children, be prepared
for an in-depth discussion. This list exists to examine the treatment
of children and discuss ways that can foster MORE respect, more
kindness and more partnership oriented relationships with children."
I'm not defending disrespectful treatment of children or anyone for that matter. I'm acknowledging that it exists, and that it's not always viewed as being disrespectful. I'm going out on limb here but I would bet that the Doctor really felt he was doing her daughter a service by reminding her to say please.
Is the best parenting scenario to remove all such people from our childrens world or to teach them how to interact with such people while retaining their dignity and true selves? I'm really asking as I haven't quite come to my own conclusion here.
*Granted I think 5 is young to be pushed out into the world without a mediator IF I had been in that situation I would have been on my knees in front of my daughter at eye level and been actively mediating between the Doctor and her. My husband and I choose to treat each person in our family with a high degree of politeness and respect and so this particular incident hasn't come up in this way for us.
** Doctor offices beget the issue of personal space for us. I state my expectation that each of the staff introduce themselves to my children, explain what they are doing as they are doing it to my children and ask my childrens permission before touching them in any way. If my children refuse the staff to touch them I ask if I can hold the stethoscope or whatever and if the nurse refuses then we skip that part of the exam.
*********
"Trying to force a "please" is so rude really. I'm trying to think of a
SINGLE incident as an adult, in which someone tried to make me say
"please" for any reason whatsover. I can't think of ONE.
At work, if I want a mint that a co-worker might have (thinking of an
example that comes up frequently) the exchange usually goes something
like: "Hey Misty, can I have one of your mints?"
"sure, go ahead"
"Thanks!"
NObody manipulates anyone to ask a certain way. It's really NOT
acceptable for adults to treat each other that way in our society. If
an adult withheld something from another adult and tried to extract a
"please" it would seem VERY strange."
That is your experience and you are blessed to have had it. That is not my experience. Happened to me all the time. Still occasionally happens to me. I'm 35 yrs old.
There are two theories I have about that:
1. You live in a diffent location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.
2. I am/was possibly such a rude and insufferable bitch that people feel/felt compelled to go out of their way to correct me.
I'm willing to entertain either one as equally as possible.
*******
"Children are often treated as inferior beings, who need to be molded
and "taught" but we're here to talk about a different way to BE and
live with children. Trying to manipulate manners is just one such thing
we question and try to find better solutions for."
Sadly true. I am proposing that if you do not treat each other in your family with the level of respect and politeness that is inherent in the social contract that is followed in your community that there will be natural consequences to your children when they are not aware or able to behave in a way that is deemed approriate. I feel that's it's unfair to not teach your children that there are expected behaviours inherent in certain situations. My childrens Grandparents take them to church occasionally and they have learned that there is an expected way for them to act in certain places of the church. The Mormon church is extremely family oriented, they provide places for children to run amok during services so I have no qualms with my children going there.
I know they will be treated kindly and with respect to their needs. Yet, they are also being exposed to the idea that there are different behaviours expected in different places. This occurs for us as a family when we take our children (ages 4 and 6) to theater performances or out to restaurants. If they are feeling rambunctious, I happily get up and take them outside. For the past few years my daughter has been enamored with tea parties, I happily go all out bringing out small glass teapots, cubed sugar in crystal bowls with tongs, small glass cups and cloth tablecloths and napkins for your lap. We put on costumes and airs, we act overly pompous and overly polite, we pretend to gossip and giggle. Now I've started to take my little 4 yr old to actual tea houses and she LOVES IT!
I believe their are plenty of ways to teach politeness without manipulation.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
"Song for a Fifth Child."
Mother, oh Mother,
come shake out your cloth,
empty the dustpan,
poison the moth,
hang out the washing
and butter the bread,
sew on a button and make up a bed.
Where is the mother whose house
is so shocking?
She's up in the nursery,
blissfully rocking.
Oh, I've grown shiftless as Little
Boy Blue (lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
Dishes are waiting and bills are past due
(pat-a-cake, darling, and peek, peekaboo).
The shopping's not done
and there's nothing for stew
and out in the yard there's a hullabaloo
but I'm playing Kanga and this is my Roo.
Look! Aren't her eyes the most wonderful hue?
(lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
The cleaning and scrubbing
will wait till tomorrow,
for children grow up,
as I've learned to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs.
Dust go to sleep.
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep'
~Ruth Hulburt Hamilton~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for an in-depth discussion. This list exists to examine the treatment
of children and discuss ways that can foster MORE respect, more
kindness and more partnership oriented relationships with children."
I'm not defending disrespectful treatment of children or anyone for that matter. I'm acknowledging that it exists, and that it's not always viewed as being disrespectful. I'm going out on limb here but I would bet that the Doctor really felt he was doing her daughter a service by reminding her to say please.
Is the best parenting scenario to remove all such people from our childrens world or to teach them how to interact with such people while retaining their dignity and true selves? I'm really asking as I haven't quite come to my own conclusion here.
*Granted I think 5 is young to be pushed out into the world without a mediator IF I had been in that situation I would have been on my knees in front of my daughter at eye level and been actively mediating between the Doctor and her. My husband and I choose to treat each person in our family with a high degree of politeness and respect and so this particular incident hasn't come up in this way for us.
** Doctor offices beget the issue of personal space for us. I state my expectation that each of the staff introduce themselves to my children, explain what they are doing as they are doing it to my children and ask my childrens permission before touching them in any way. If my children refuse the staff to touch them I ask if I can hold the stethoscope or whatever and if the nurse refuses then we skip that part of the exam.
*********
"Trying to force a "please" is so rude really. I'm trying to think of a
SINGLE incident as an adult, in which someone tried to make me say
"please" for any reason whatsover. I can't think of ONE.
At work, if I want a mint that a co-worker might have (thinking of an
example that comes up frequently) the exchange usually goes something
like: "Hey Misty, can I have one of your mints?"
"sure, go ahead"
"Thanks!"
NObody manipulates anyone to ask a certain way. It's really NOT
acceptable for adults to treat each other that way in our society. If
an adult withheld something from another adult and tried to extract a
"please" it would seem VERY strange."
That is your experience and you are blessed to have had it. That is not my experience. Happened to me all the time. Still occasionally happens to me. I'm 35 yrs old.
There are two theories I have about that:
1. You live in a diffent location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.
2. I am/was possibly such a rude and insufferable bitch that people feel/felt compelled to go out of their way to correct me.
I'm willing to entertain either one as equally as possible.
*******
"Children are often treated as inferior beings, who need to be molded
and "taught" but we're here to talk about a different way to BE and
live with children. Trying to manipulate manners is just one such thing
we question and try to find better solutions for."
Sadly true. I am proposing that if you do not treat each other in your family with the level of respect and politeness that is inherent in the social contract that is followed in your community that there will be natural consequences to your children when they are not aware or able to behave in a way that is deemed approriate. I feel that's it's unfair to not teach your children that there are expected behaviours inherent in certain situations. My childrens Grandparents take them to church occasionally and they have learned that there is an expected way for them to act in certain places of the church. The Mormon church is extremely family oriented, they provide places for children to run amok during services so I have no qualms with my children going there.
I know they will be treated kindly and with respect to their needs. Yet, they are also being exposed to the idea that there are different behaviours expected in different places. This occurs for us as a family when we take our children (ages 4 and 6) to theater performances or out to restaurants. If they are feeling rambunctious, I happily get up and take them outside. For the past few years my daughter has been enamored with tea parties, I happily go all out bringing out small glass teapots, cubed sugar in crystal bowls with tongs, small glass cups and cloth tablecloths and napkins for your lap. We put on costumes and airs, we act overly pompous and overly polite, we pretend to gossip and giggle. Now I've started to take my little 4 yr old to actual tea houses and she LOVES IT!
I believe their are plenty of ways to teach politeness without manipulation.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
"Song for a Fifth Child."
Mother, oh Mother,
come shake out your cloth,
empty the dustpan,
poison the moth,
hang out the washing
and butter the bread,
sew on a button and make up a bed.
Where is the mother whose house
is so shocking?
She's up in the nursery,
blissfully rocking.
Oh, I've grown shiftless as Little
Boy Blue (lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
Dishes are waiting and bills are past due
(pat-a-cake, darling, and peek, peekaboo).
The shopping's not done
and there's nothing for stew
and out in the yard there's a hullabaloo
but I'm playing Kanga and this is my Roo.
Look! Aren't her eyes the most wonderful hue?
(lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
The cleaning and scrubbing
will wait till tomorrow,
for children grow up,
as I've learned to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs.
Dust go to sleep.
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep'
~Ruth Hulburt Hamilton~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
> He didn't force her to say something she didn't want to. Not giving her a********I feel like withholding is manipulation. Trying to manipulate
> sticker is not forcing anything, it's withholding.
> He did give the sticker to the Mother after she asked him politely.
> It is common for people to treat both adults and children in this way. It's
> called manipulation and it's rife in our society.
> I do see adults hold things out and say "Say please and I'll give it to
> you." those adults are being condescending and that's on the gracious end of
> manipulation. Usually an adult who is demanding and rude is not given the
> courtesy of a reminder to be polite they are simply told "No".
>
someone's actions is coercion. This pertains to the words used not the OP
situation.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***I disagree on two parts. One, I think force and withholding are both
> Again force and withholding two different things. Children are still
> learning how to navigate proper etiquette in society and therefore are given
> more opportunities for learning and practice than an adult is. They are
> given a grace period that an adult has already passed.
>
tools of manipulation. Two, I think that there are different social
expectations for children and adults. Adults can ask in a polite was without
"magic" words and are respected. It is much more typical for a children to
be asked to say "please" "thank you" "your welcome" etc.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>***** A gentle reminder would be, Sweetie I really liked to be asked using a
>
> I think our major disagreement isn't in the Childs behavior but in the
> Doctors. I see his request for her to say please as gentle reminder, a
> courtesy, teaching her that there is a way to phrase her desires that will
> garner the help she wants in reaching her goals.
>
kind voice and with a please and a thank you.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
>**** I don't necssarily think that Dr was being rude. However, withholding a
>
> You see it as overly manipulative and rude. As nether of us was actually
> there it's impossible to say who's right.
>
prize is manipulation. I feel the parent or Dr could have given the child a
more straight forward cue in navigating the situation.
-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>****It is very different in my house. I have no expectation of certain
>
> When my children tell me; "I want ice cream." I say "Great! Thanks for
> telling me" IF there's ice cream in the freezer they are welcome to it. If
> there's not or they need help, they come back to me and ASK "Can you help me
> get ice cream?"
> A statement of want is not the same as a request for help.
> IF my children say "Get me ice cream." or in Oobie speak "ICE CREAM <point
> point>" I say "I'm not going to help you when you speak to me like that.
> Would you like to try again?"
>
> Yes, both of us are being manipulative, not in a bad way, in a learning
> way. They are manipulating me into handing them ice cream and I am
> manipulating them into speaking to me in a way fitting of a person they love
> and respect. I speak to them with exactly the same love and respect. Kids do
> what works. Fortunately for my children what works in my house also works
> out in the world at large.
>
words. I am happy to help people when and how they need it.
I don't require my kids to jump through hoops to get help. I might offer or
I might suggest or problem solve depending on the situation. I may ask if
they can ask me. But I would be getting them ice cream (or whatever) not
withholding it until they complied with my demands. Sometimes I say things
like "I want ice cream." I try to be empathetic but I don't say that to
manipulate anyone. I know I have asked my children to "get me ice cream (or
whatever) when they are getting some for them self. I may not have used the
word please but the sentiment of love and respect is there. I don't think we
need to special word to convey the message of appreciation. I don't know
what Oobie speak is, I know that my kids have chanted "ice cream, ice cream,
ice cream!" and I joyfully got it as part of a game. I didn't find it rude.
I don't tell my kids I wouldn't help them until they comply with my
preferred way of speaking. If I find that a child was be discourteous
(courtesy is one of our principles) I would talk to them about it, but not
in the situation.
I feel I can express my displeasure without withholding or using coercion.
It can be hard at first because this goes against mainstream tactics. It
takes a faith that your children want to be couteous and respectful.
Faith
>--
>
>
>
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad Holcomb
> I'm not defending disrespectful treatment of children or anyone for thatmatter.
> I'm acknowledging that it exists,By whom? By you and your husband? Not by me. Disrespect is disrespect.
> and that it's not always viewed as being disrespectful.
> I'm going out on limb here but I would bet that the Doctor really felt hewas doing her
> daughter a service by reminding her to say please.You're not out on any limb at all. You're very close to the mainstream
trunk of the tree. But the end does NOT justify the means. In this
scenario, the doctor was being manipulative. He was trying to get the
daughter to do a trained-animal act. Manipulation is disrespectful. The
degree to which you manipulate someone is the degree to which you disrespect
them. My parents truly, intensely, honestly believed that spanking me was
doing me a great service. It was saving me from embarrassing them in
public, getting into trouble, or being a sinner that might end up in hell.
Their "end" goal was completely justified in their mind, so they could use
whatever means necessary to achieve that goal. And in the process they
disrespected me, a lot. My desires and learning needs were rarely
considered. It wasn't kind, and it didn't help me much, and in many ways
I'm still undoing the damage, 25 years after leaving their home at age 17.
Interactions in your home that have the intention of molding or "teaching"
your child to behave a certain way to meet your (or society's) expectations
is doing damage to your child and to your relationship with your child.
> Is the best parenting scenario to remove all such people from ourAs you discover unschooling more, you'll understand that unschoolers only
> childrens world or to teach them how to interact with such people
> while retaining their dignity and true selves? I'm really asking as
> I haven't quite come to my own conclusion here.
very rarely use the verb "to teach". Anytime you find yourself saying it,
if you'll substitute the verb "to learn", your progress toward understanding
unschooling will be much quicker. I don't "teach" my child how to interact
with people. He learns it. I can't "teach" him this in the same way I
can't "teach" him to walk or talk or throw a toy or put on his shirt. He
watched others doing it (including me) and he learned how to do these things
in his own way, at his own time. Anytime you use the word "teach", it has a
top-down, "I know more than you, and I want to impart my knowledge to you so
you'll retain it and act in the ways I find acceptable." Teaching is icky
and schoolish. If a friend, or even my own wife, tries to "teach" me a
lesson they think is important, it's going to create space and friction in
the relationship. Kids are no different. Unschooling looks for the ways to
eliminate space...to foster closer, intimate, open relationships where
communication can flow easily. I am not my son's teacher. I am not my
son's boss. I am his partner, guide, and helper. I have 38 more years of
experience on this planet than he does, so there are many things I can help
him with. The key is that I give him this help when he wants it, now when I
(or society, or any "social" or "community" contracts, or any other external
expectations) wants it. And, moment to moment, so far in his 4 years I
think that I, personally, have learned far more *from him* than he's learned
from me.
> I am proposing that if you do not treat each other in yourThis type of thinking is not helpful to unschooling. Not in any way at all.
> family with the level of respect and politeness that is inherent in the
> social contract that is followed in your community that there will be
> natural consequences to your children when they are not aware or able
> to behave in a way that is deemed approriate. I feel that's it's unfair
> to not teach your children that there are expected behaviours inherent
> in certain situations.
It's yet another example of "the end justifies the means". It's a quick
slippery slope from "natural consequences" to spankings with a belt. My
parents spanked me with love and the authority of God, doing their best to
mold me since they believed it was necessary. Children do not need
molding!! Children need love and help. Let go of any thoughts about
"natural consequences", because it's simply one more mainstream euphemism
for "teaching a lesson". The father who runs over his kid's bicycle with
his car instead of looking behind the car before cranking it can easily
justify it, saying that the broken bike is a "natural consequence" of the
child irresponsibly leaving the bicycle behind the car. "If I hadn't run
over my kid's bicycle, he'd have left something else (maybe bigger or more
expensive or more important) behind the car at a later point. So by me
being coercive and unkind now, I'm teaching him how to act more responsibly
in the future." Our societal ideas of "natural consequences" are icky and
mean and disrespectful. It's in the exact same category as timeouts or any
other "kinder, gentler" form of coercion, manipulation, and "children are
not fully humans yet so we have to mold them" thinking.
> I believe their are plenty of ways to teachOne unschooling way to say this would be:
> politeness without manipulation.
There are plenty of ways for my children to learn politeness without me
imposing onto them my fears about failing to meet a social contract or
expectation.
Behavior is communication. Trying to change my child's behavior is usually
an attempt to stifle communication that I am not ready or willing to hear.
Listening to and observing the behavior helps me understand the underlying
desires my child has, that he doesn't have the English vocabulary to
communicate to me. It's incredibly easy to give the benefit of the doubt to
an infant who can't speak at all, and whose crying or writhing we listen to,
and we easily meet their needs for warmth or food or whatever. When your
child is 4 or 6, their communication via behavior is just as critical.
Listen to it, instead of requiring them to change it so they fit into any
kind of parental or societal mold.
-=b.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org
Ren Allen
~~There are two theories I have about that:
1. You live in a diffent location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.~~
I live in the South, where manners are HIGHLY valuable and children are "taught" constantly. None of my very southern friends have ever felt a need to make me say "please" nor have I ever witnessed adults acting in such a way to anyone that isn't in the child category.
I would love to hear an example of how adults correct each other or try to manipulate a "please" from each other. I've lived and traveled all over this country for almost 40 years and never witnessed that kind of behavior amongst adults. I would think that would be highly unusual.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
1. You live in a diffent location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.~~
I live in the South, where manners are HIGHLY valuable and children are "taught" constantly. None of my very southern friends have ever felt a need to make me say "please" nor have I ever witnessed adults acting in such a way to anyone that isn't in the child category.
I would love to hear an example of how adults correct each other or try to manipulate a "please" from each other. I've lived and traveled all over this country for almost 40 years and never witnessed that kind of behavior amongst adults. I would think that would be highly unusual.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Brad Holcomb
> This could be construed as deliberate manipulation and if I had planned toan
> scream Ouch! startle my child remove them from the breast and sooth with
> explanation about being nice that would be true, however, it wasn't. TheYes, and Natural Consequences = Behavior Modification = Control = Coercion =
> scenario played out from my honest gut reaction. To my understanding that
> puts it in the area of natural consequences.
Manipulation
And none of those have anything at all to do with Unschooling. They will
impede anyone's best efforts to unschool.
When someone bites you, saying Ouch is natural, yes. Anything after that
Ouch has a strong potential to be coercive. Babies don't like to hurt their
mommy. Our 6 month old bites my wife occasionally. When it happens, she
says Ouch, helps baby relatch, and moves on, without lecturing the child on
what it means to nurse "kindly".
> If you change the natural consequence of your childs action in the namecreating
> of "safety" or "respect" are you really unschooling them? Or are you
> a false sense of the world around them just as surely as if you hadcreated a
> punishment for them for something you felt was out of line?Just let go of any idea of Natural Consequences. You won't find many people
here who want to discuss it, because it's just a mainstream way for people
to coercively train/teach/mold their children without the guilt baggage that
comes with *knowing* that punishments and rewards harm children but *using*
them anyway. I think that reading Alfie Kohn's book Punished by Rewards
would help your thinking in this area a LOT. The first sentence in the
quote above shows how muddy and misguided Natural Conseqence thinking is.
If I could "change the natural consequence" of my child's action, what is it
that's making it "natural"????? If you can "change the consequence", how is
that not another way of saying that YOU decide the appropriate consequence
(punishment or reward) depending on your own beliefs and morals and world
view? Unschoolers recognize that true "natural consequences" are
objectively "natural". Skinned knees from a fall off a skateboard is a
natural consequence. That's a solo act by my child, no input on my part.
Once the parental actors are involved, choosing and deciding on the best
"natural" consequence, it's simply coercive living with a fancy feel-good
name.
> I wonder if this bubble is appropriate or if like the Prince/Princessreality
> kept in the castle my children will feel horribly mislead as to the
> of the world at large?So we should punish our kids a little bit sometimes so they'll be used to it
when they're out there on their own? The majority of society believes that.
But definitely not Unschoolers. We choose joy over fears and concerns about
how the future might look. Tomorrow doesn't exist. When you get there,
it's Today. We never see tomorrow. We make joyful choices in our
interactions TODAY, trusting that it's the most JOYFUL and most FUN way to
deal with a simple natural consequence of life: our complete inability to
predict the future. There is no "world at large" that my son will
experience someday. He's living in his "world at large" right now, daily.
He's a full-bore human being experiencing life, today, now. I'm not
preparing him for a later nebulous/maybe/what-if reality.
Robyn Coburn said the following about unschooling, and I love these words so
much I have them printed and taped to my wall above my PC so I can marinate
in them frequently (I'm pretty sure I found the quote on sandradodd.com a
few months back):
"The idea of Unschooling is for parents to be the facilitators of options,
the openers of doors, the creators of environments of freedom, and the
guardians of choice, not the installers of roadblocks and barriers.
Unschoolers are making the huge and wonderful choice to renounce our legal
entitlements to be the authoritarian controllers of our children's lives,
and instead choose to be their partners."
If you want to delve into unschooling thought more, an excellent way to do
it is to go to this page:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
On the top right, there's a "Go to a random page" link. Click it, and keep
clicking it, every chance you get. Every time you feel the urge to write to
this group and defend or justify your current ways of being with your kids,
just go read another random page at Joyce's site.
Once you think you've read everything at that site, go here:
http://sandradodd.com/random
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org
Ren Allen
~~
Just let go of any idea of Natural Consequences. You won't find many people here who want to discuss it, because it's just a mainstream way for people to coercively train/teach/mold their children without the guilt baggage that comes with *knowing* that punishments and rewards harm children but *using* them anyway.~~
Yes, a real, true natural consequence happens all by itself, without anyone thinking it up. When people talk about "natural consequences" in parenting circles, it's usually just another form of punishment, all dressed up as "progressiveness".
Life has all sorts of struggles and difficulties built right into it. Fostering joy and partnering with our children helps them be better equipped for dealing with life's bumps and bruises.
When life throws a curveball, there's opportunities to discuss ways of dealing with it. The more gracefully and mindfully WE deal with tough times, the more our children learn about it. They watch us. So if you want mindful, positive children, BE mindful and positive yourself.
I wouldn't want my dh punishing me with "natural consequences" when I screw up. I certainly don't want to treat my children that way. If we worry about what our children are learning, we only need look at ourselves, what our lives look like, how we act and what we're modeling for them.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Just let go of any idea of Natural Consequences. You won't find many people here who want to discuss it, because it's just a mainstream way for people to coercively train/teach/mold their children without the guilt baggage that comes with *knowing* that punishments and rewards harm children but *using* them anyway.~~
Yes, a real, true natural consequence happens all by itself, without anyone thinking it up. When people talk about "natural consequences" in parenting circles, it's usually just another form of punishment, all dressed up as "progressiveness".
Life has all sorts of struggles and difficulties built right into it. Fostering joy and partnering with our children helps them be better equipped for dealing with life's bumps and bruises.
When life throws a curveball, there's opportunities to discuss ways of dealing with it. The more gracefully and mindfully WE deal with tough times, the more our children learn about it. They watch us. So if you want mindful, positive children, BE mindful and positive yourself.
I wouldn't want my dh punishing me with "natural consequences" when I screw up. I certainly don't want to treat my children that way. If we worry about what our children are learning, we only need look at ourselves, what our lives look like, how we act and what we're modeling for them.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Amy
""~~There are two theories I have about that:
1. You live in a different location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.~~
"I live in the South, where manners are HIGHLY valuable and children
are "taught" constantly. None of my very southern friends have ever
felt a need to make me say "please" nor have I ever witnessed adults
acting in such a way to anyone that isn't in the child category.
I would love to hear an example of how adults correct each other or try
to manipulate a "please" from each other. I've lived and traveled all
over this country for almost 40 years and never witnessed that kind of
behavior amongst adults. I would think that would be highly unusual.""
Then using Oocums razor the second theory most likely applies.
I live and have grown up in Orange County, California. Everywhere from Diners to Gas Stations to parties of friends I have been reminded to say please or ask nicely. Still happens on a fairly regular basis. Occasionally it comes across as manipulative but usually it's just a friendly reminder when I'm in a bit of rush or out of sorts. I also tend to lose my ability to notice my volume when I'm tired, if I stay out late at least once during the night someone will come over and either gently touch my arm and tell me I'm being loud or ask me to be quieter. Happens.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
"Song for a Fifth Child."
Mother, oh Mother,
come shake out your cloth,
empty the dustpan,
poison the moth,
hang out the washing
and butter the bread,
sew on a button and make up a bed.
Where is the mother whose house
is so shocking?
She's up in the nursery,
blissfully rocking.
Oh, I've grown shiftless as Little
Boy Blue (lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
Dishes are waiting and bills are past due
(pat-a-cake, darling, and peek, peekaboo).
The shopping's not done
and there's nothing for stew
and out in the yard there's a hullabaloo
but I'm playing Kanga and this is my Roo.
Look! Aren't her eyes the most wonderful hue?
(lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
The cleaning and scrubbing
will wait till tomorrow,
for children grow up,
as I've learned to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs.
Dust go to sleep.
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep'
~Ruth Hulburt Hamilton~
1. You live in a different location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.~~
"I live in the South, where manners are HIGHLY valuable and children
are "taught" constantly. None of my very southern friends have ever
felt a need to make me say "please" nor have I ever witnessed adults
acting in such a way to anyone that isn't in the child category.
I would love to hear an example of how adults correct each other or try
to manipulate a "please" from each other. I've lived and traveled all
over this country for almost 40 years and never witnessed that kind of
behavior amongst adults. I would think that would be highly unusual.""
Then using Oocums razor the second theory most likely applies.
I live and have grown up in Orange County, California. Everywhere from Diners to Gas Stations to parties of friends I have been reminded to say please or ask nicely. Still happens on a fairly regular basis. Occasionally it comes across as manipulative but usually it's just a friendly reminder when I'm in a bit of rush or out of sorts. I also tend to lose my ability to notice my volume when I'm tired, if I stay out late at least once during the night someone will come over and either gently touch my arm and tell me I'm being loud or ask me to be quieter. Happens.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
"Song for a Fifth Child."
Mother, oh Mother,
come shake out your cloth,
empty the dustpan,
poison the moth,
hang out the washing
and butter the bread,
sew on a button and make up a bed.
Where is the mother whose house
is so shocking?
She's up in the nursery,
blissfully rocking.
Oh, I've grown shiftless as Little
Boy Blue (lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
Dishes are waiting and bills are past due
(pat-a-cake, darling, and peek, peekaboo).
The shopping's not done
and there's nothing for stew
and out in the yard there's a hullabaloo
but I'm playing Kanga and this is my Roo.
Look! Aren't her eyes the most wonderful hue?
(lullaby, rockaby, lullaby loo).
The cleaning and scrubbing
will wait till tomorrow,
for children grow up,
as I've learned to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs.
Dust go to sleep.
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep'
~Ruth Hulburt Hamilton~
--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Forcing a "please" or an "ask nicely"
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 10:14 AM
~~There are two theories I have about that:
1. You live in a diffent location than I do and your local customs and social contract are different than where I live.~~
I live in the South, where manners are HIGHLY valuable and children are "taught" constantly. None of my very southern friends have ever felt a need to make me say "please" nor have I ever witnessed adults acting in such a way to anyone that isn't in the child category.
I would love to hear an example of how adults correct each other or try to manipulate a "please" from each other. I've lived and traveled all over this country for almost 40 years and never witnessed that kind of behavior amongst adults. I would think that would be highly unusual.
Ren
radicalunschooling. blogspot. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Amy <quinlonsma@...> wrote:
Relationships can exist without manipulation. They can. Certainly its possible to view every human interaction as being about power, or manipulation, or control - but its equally possible to see human interactions from a different viewpoint, one with no locus of control at all. Radical unschooling contains a whole different paradigm of human relationships, starting with parents and children, but expanding beyond that. Beyond power or control or manipulation, love and respect still exist, but they look a little different. They're gentler things in many ways.
I work in a factory and on construction sites - not exactly models of a gentle environment. But even there, I've found its possible to have interactions that weren't about manipulation but mutual supportiveness. I've also seen coworkers bring power trips and sneakiness to work with them and *create* a need for regulation. Now that those particular coworkers are gone, the rules have all been rolled back to "do what seems right".
Its absolutely possible for children to learn courtesy without the kinds of tactics the doctor in question used. Its Not necessary to teach courtesy - kids really do learn it from seeing it used between adults and used By adults To Children.
Now, I don't expect every random stranger my kids meet to understand that, but I do look for ways to help my kids out of situations like Marla's example (Love the stickers in the purse idea!). Its always better when I can say "we don't have that rule" and the other adult accepts that - that's courtesy. I don't shove my parenting philosophy down the throat of everyone I meet and I don't appreciate it when others do it to me. Even if the doctor doesn't respect the humanity of children, he might at least be expected to respect others' parenting decisions.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> Yes, both of us are being manipulative, not in a bad way, in a learning way. They are manipulating me into handing them ice cream and I am manipulating them into speaking to me in a way fitting of a person they love and respect. I speak to them with exactly the same love and respect.*********************************
Relationships can exist without manipulation. They can. Certainly its possible to view every human interaction as being about power, or manipulation, or control - but its equally possible to see human interactions from a different viewpoint, one with no locus of control at all. Radical unschooling contains a whole different paradigm of human relationships, starting with parents and children, but expanding beyond that. Beyond power or control or manipulation, love and respect still exist, but they look a little different. They're gentler things in many ways.
>> Fortunately for my children what works in my house also works out in the world at large.**************************
I work in a factory and on construction sites - not exactly models of a gentle environment. But even there, I've found its possible to have interactions that weren't about manipulation but mutual supportiveness. I've also seen coworkers bring power trips and sneakiness to work with them and *create* a need for regulation. Now that those particular coworkers are gone, the rules have all been rolled back to "do what seems right".
> I think our major disagreement isn't in the Childs behavior but in the Doctors. I see his request for her to say please as gentle reminder, a courtesy, teaching her that there is a way to phrase her desires that will garner the help she wants in reaching her goals.*******************************
Its absolutely possible for children to learn courtesy without the kinds of tactics the doctor in question used. Its Not necessary to teach courtesy - kids really do learn it from seeing it used between adults and used By adults To Children.
Now, I don't expect every random stranger my kids meet to understand that, but I do look for ways to help my kids out of situations like Marla's example (Love the stickers in the purse idea!). Its always better when I can say "we don't have that rule" and the other adult accepts that - that's courtesy. I don't shove my parenting philosophy down the throat of everyone I meet and I don't appreciate it when others do it to me. Even if the doctor doesn't respect the humanity of children, he might at least be expected to respect others' parenting decisions.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Amy <quinlonsma@...> wrote:
There are people I don't hang out with very much anymore, at least when the kids are with me, bc they're rude to my kids. I stay away from people who piss Me off, why shouldn't my kids have the same option?
That being said, there are plenty of people in the world who are rude to children (or just plain rude). We don't live in a bubble, so my kids get to meet people who are condescending or didactic or try to order them around or quiz them on a fairly regular basis. I help the kids out as best I can, stepping in when necessary, diffusing the situation, changing the subject, even "getting into it" with the other adult sometimes (which I Don't recommend, but it happens). My kids have learned many of the same skills - they're great at changing the subject and finding ways to diffuse situations where adults are being weird. They have great initiative and problem solving skills and they know I've "got their back" so to speak. They also know that I can make a royal mess of things in their defense! So they've seen a whole lot of social problem solving, and will see plenty more, I'm sure. They aren't "sheltered" in that sense - I just don't dump them in situations that we all know up front will be unpleasant.
Its an example of the principle of setting kids up for success whenever possible. Kids learn more and better social skills by witnessing a higher percentage of graciousness and kindness and active courtesy all 'round than they do from having adults be rude to them for the sake of "teaching courtesy".
We do this too. I also try to let the kids know about expectations beforehand - movies and theater have an expectation of quiet, that sort of thing. That's more of the same principle of setting things up for success.
At the same time, there are places we don't go very often bc I know its a strain, at best, for my kids to Meet the expectations of the space. We didn't take Ray grocery shopping for years bc he just couldn't meet the expectations of stores - not climbing the shelves and displays was just more than he could handle without having someone to race up and down the aisles with... and that really makes it hard to shop. I don't take Mo to libraries anymore when other children are likely to be present bc she reads to other children and in our small town libraries that's a problem for reasons that escape me entirely.
Now that he's 15, Ray doesn't have any problem going grocery shopping or even to exciting places like Home Depot without climbing the displays - so its not like he never learned how to behave. But he didn't have to have the experience of being told "don't do that" a zillion times to learn it. When he was ready, we could say "the people who work here get nervous when customers do things like that" and that was enough.
To a large extent, courtesy, true courtesty anyway, is a function of empathy. That's something that can't be taught, but it can be nurtured. The more one has a sense of innate personal worth, the more readily that empathy is accessible and the more one behaves graciously. That's true of kids and adults.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> Is the best parenting scenario to remove all such people from our childrens world or to teach them how to interact with such people while retaining their dignity and true selves? I'm really asking as I haven't quite come to my own conclusion here.***************************
There are people I don't hang out with very much anymore, at least when the kids are with me, bc they're rude to my kids. I stay away from people who piss Me off, why shouldn't my kids have the same option?
That being said, there are plenty of people in the world who are rude to children (or just plain rude). We don't live in a bubble, so my kids get to meet people who are condescending or didactic or try to order them around or quiz them on a fairly regular basis. I help the kids out as best I can, stepping in when necessary, diffusing the situation, changing the subject, even "getting into it" with the other adult sometimes (which I Don't recommend, but it happens). My kids have learned many of the same skills - they're great at changing the subject and finding ways to diffuse situations where adults are being weird. They have great initiative and problem solving skills and they know I've "got their back" so to speak. They also know that I can make a royal mess of things in their defense! So they've seen a whole lot of social problem solving, and will see plenty more, I'm sure. They aren't "sheltered" in that sense - I just don't dump them in situations that we all know up front will be unpleasant.
Its an example of the principle of setting kids up for success whenever possible. Kids learn more and better social skills by witnessing a higher percentage of graciousness and kindness and active courtesy all 'round than they do from having adults be rude to them for the sake of "teaching courtesy".
>>Yet, they are also being exposed to the idea that there are different behaviours expected in different places. This occurs for us as a family when we take our children (ages 4 and 6) to theater performances or out to restaurants. If they are feeling rambunctious, I happily get up and take them outside.*****************************************
We do this too. I also try to let the kids know about expectations beforehand - movies and theater have an expectation of quiet, that sort of thing. That's more of the same principle of setting things up for success.
At the same time, there are places we don't go very often bc I know its a strain, at best, for my kids to Meet the expectations of the space. We didn't take Ray grocery shopping for years bc he just couldn't meet the expectations of stores - not climbing the shelves and displays was just more than he could handle without having someone to race up and down the aisles with... and that really makes it hard to shop. I don't take Mo to libraries anymore when other children are likely to be present bc she reads to other children and in our small town libraries that's a problem for reasons that escape me entirely.
Now that he's 15, Ray doesn't have any problem going grocery shopping or even to exciting places like Home Depot without climbing the displays - so its not like he never learned how to behave. But he didn't have to have the experience of being told "don't do that" a zillion times to learn it. When he was ready, we could say "the people who work here get nervous when customers do things like that" and that was enough.
To a large extent, courtesy, true courtesty anyway, is a function of empathy. That's something that can't be taught, but it can be nurtured. The more one has a sense of innate personal worth, the more readily that empathy is accessible and the more one behaves graciously. That's true of kids and adults.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Amy <quinlonsma@...> wrote:
Okay, you've changed arguements. No One is talking about abuse - we're talking about displaying conventional forms of politeness. If you want to talk abuse within that context, people can be plenty mean and rotten with a Please or Thank You on their lips. Where I live (TN), the absolute meannest thing you can say is "Bless your heart."
In any case, no one is trying to argue that physical violence is merely un-gracious.
We're not talking about yelling, either - you gave a good example of meeting the needs of overstimulated kids, for sure. But the scenario you threw out the first time was a child saying "I want ice cream" - not overstimulated, not freaking out, not mean, not abusive. Maybe all wrapped up in what he or she is doing and so not being as gracious as possible - its Okay for kids to not always be as gracious as possible. They get better at being consistently gracious when they live in an environment where graciousness is a regular occurrance. More than modelling, the graciousness meets some of their emotional needs and makes it Easier for them to be gracious, themselves. Replying by saying "oh, you want ice cream, great" doesn't meet any needs, doesn't help anything, doesn't even model anything but being snarky to a loved one.
This is where its really important to have a good grasp of your own guiding principles - those values that actually motivate your behavior. When you clear the way to live by your principles, some of your reactions will change. That's a good thing - its you being more true to your self. But it complicates the whole question of "natural consequences" because some "natural" reactions are animal reactions and some are habits, knee-jerk reactions of thought and feeling. Part of clearing the way to live by your principles involves learning to Not default to those more basic reactions.
Okay, this is all very theoretical, let me try to give an example of what I mean. My frustration is sometimes a natural consequence of my kids' actions - but I also have a very strong guiding principle of kindness. Sometimes its Kind to let my kids know the extent of my frustration. Its useful information about me, about the world and how their behavior effects other people. Other times my frutration isn't a terribly kind or useful piece of information. Then its better if I take some deep breaths and Deal without dishing my own issues up to my kids. In either case, I'm expressing my deepest intent of being kind to the people around me - but in one case I'm providing a "natural consequence" and in another, I'm not.
The result of being true to principles, rather than relying on rules or even guidelines like "natural consequences" is that you end up being more consistent in ways that are more tangible. That sounds backwards, doesn't it? But its something I've seen over and over in my family, at work, and heard many similar stories from other longtime unschoolers. Kindness is a tangible thing - its gentle words and hands and food and hugs when they're needed and feeling confident and loved and supported. All those things are tangible - felt in the body itself. And when That is consistent, then kids (and adults too) feel loved and respected and able to be kind in return.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> > I think there is a subtle distinction between what some may consider "not being nice" and abuse. I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about rushing to the side of a tired or overstimulated or off mood person to help them get their needs met. I do not allow anyone (even my own mother) to scream at me, kick me, hit me, bite me, in order for me to go get them something.********************
Okay, you've changed arguements. No One is talking about abuse - we're talking about displaying conventional forms of politeness. If you want to talk abuse within that context, people can be plenty mean and rotten with a Please or Thank You on their lips. Where I live (TN), the absolute meannest thing you can say is "Bless your heart."
In any case, no one is trying to argue that physical violence is merely un-gracious.
> When my children are simply out of sorts and yell at me to get them something...****************
We're not talking about yelling, either - you gave a good example of meeting the needs of overstimulated kids, for sure. But the scenario you threw out the first time was a child saying "I want ice cream" - not overstimulated, not freaking out, not mean, not abusive. Maybe all wrapped up in what he or she is doing and so not being as gracious as possible - its Okay for kids to not always be as gracious as possible. They get better at being consistently gracious when they live in an environment where graciousness is a regular occurrance. More than modelling, the graciousness meets some of their emotional needs and makes it Easier for them to be gracious, themselves. Replying by saying "oh, you want ice cream, great" doesn't meet any needs, doesn't help anything, doesn't even model anything but being snarky to a loved one.
> I want to address the topic of natural consequences. If you change the natural consequence of your childs action in the name of "safety" or "respect" are you really unschooling them? Or are you creating a false sense of the world around them just as surely as if you had created a punishment for them for something you felt was out of line?**************************
This is where its really important to have a good grasp of your own guiding principles - those values that actually motivate your behavior. When you clear the way to live by your principles, some of your reactions will change. That's a good thing - its you being more true to your self. But it complicates the whole question of "natural consequences" because some "natural" reactions are animal reactions and some are habits, knee-jerk reactions of thought and feeling. Part of clearing the way to live by your principles involves learning to Not default to those more basic reactions.
Okay, this is all very theoretical, let me try to give an example of what I mean. My frustration is sometimes a natural consequence of my kids' actions - but I also have a very strong guiding principle of kindness. Sometimes its Kind to let my kids know the extent of my frustration. Its useful information about me, about the world and how their behavior effects other people. Other times my frutration isn't a terribly kind or useful piece of information. Then its better if I take some deep breaths and Deal without dishing my own issues up to my kids. In either case, I'm expressing my deepest intent of being kind to the people around me - but in one case I'm providing a "natural consequence" and in another, I'm not.
The result of being true to principles, rather than relying on rules or even guidelines like "natural consequences" is that you end up being more consistent in ways that are more tangible. That sounds backwards, doesn't it? But its something I've seen over and over in my family, at work, and heard many similar stories from other longtime unschoolers. Kindness is a tangible thing - its gentle words and hands and food and hugs when they're needed and feeling confident and loved and supported. All those things are tangible - felt in the body itself. And when That is consistent, then kids (and adults too) feel loved and respected and able to be kind in return.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)