jennifercroce37

I am planning to homeschool my 6 year old daughter next year and intend to use an unschooling approach. I have been talking to her about how she'll have a choice over what and how she learns. However I am now finding that I am having a bit more difficulty with her because when she doesn't want to do something she'll complain that it isn't her choice. I have told her there will be times she doesn't have a choice and that it won't be her way all the time.

Thanks,
Jen

Nicole Willoughby

Maybe Im reading your post the wrong way....

It dosent sound as if you are planning to unschool .... it sounds more like you are saying ok your can choose if you want to do reading or math first today .... or you can choose if you want to work on fractions or additions facts.

Can you give examples so we can get a clearer picture?

Nicole

Never play with hot lava in the house ~Alyssa,5




--- On Mon, 3/23/09, jennifercroce37 <jennifercroce37@...> wrote:

From: jennifercroce37 <jennifercroce37@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do you control the power of choice
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, March 23, 2009, 3:41 PM












I am planning to homeschool my 6 year old daughter next year and intend to use an unschooling approach. I have been talking to her about how she'll have a choice over what and how she learns. However I am now finding that I am having a bit more difficulty with her because when she doesn't want to do something she'll complain that it isn't her choice. I have told her there will be times she doesn't have a choice and that it won't be her way all the time.



Thanks,

Jen































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Croce

Sorry if I wasn't very clear, I am still in the planning stage so I don't have this all figured out yet.  Since this is new to me I probably won't radically unschool from the get go since I need the security of the structure that goes with conventional schooling.  This being said, I plan to have subject boxes with different materials for my daughter to choose from.  If something particular strikes her interest we will take off from there.  I guess I am semi-unschooling but hope to be doing it more and more as I let go of the conventional way of thinking about education and get more comfortable with homeschooling in general.  I have been explaining that she will have more choice over what she does and how she learns it compared to school where she is simply given worksheets or has to take a spelling test .

So my problem is that now when I ask or tell my daughter to do something and she doesn't particularly want to do it she'll complain and whine that it isn't her choice.  I am trying to think of a specific example but of course nothing comes to mind right at this second.  It just feels to me like she is taking advantage of this new philosophy and I don't quite know when I should put my foot down and when to let her decide.  I feel it is confusing to tell her sometimes she has choices and sometimes she doesn't.  Sorry, I know I'm not explaining this well, I am tired and feeling a bit overwhelmed with all of this.  I appreciate everyone's advice and support.  I think I am just suffering from anxiety and fear about whether or not I am doing the right thing.

Thanks,
Jen 




________________________________







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 23, 2009, at 4:41 PM, jennifercroce37 wrote:

> I am planning to homeschool my 6 year old daughter next year and
> intend to use an unschooling approach. I have been talking to her
> about how she'll have a choice over what and how she learns.
> However I am now finding that I am having a bit more difficulty
> with her because when she doesn't want to do something she'll
> complain that it isn't her choice. I have told her there will be
> times she doesn't have a choice and that it won't be her way all
> the time.

Yes, that's why the advice is "Don't lift all the rules at once. Just
say yes more."!

This is a perfectly normal reaction by someone who keenly felt the
control to having the control removed. It's like being held prisoner
and being told you're free. But then the jailer says, "No, wait, you
only get to be free when I say you can be free."

This is why unschooling and mindful parenting aren't universally
embraced. ;-) Freedom for kids is inconvenient for adults. It's much
easier for adults to say "Because I said so and I'm the Mom." But
it's a very poor way to build relationships and by the time they're
teens they're ready to say "So? Screw this!"

Talk to her about freedom. *Not* with a "You're wrong and I need to
change you," attitude. Because she *is* right. Tell her that
sometimes people's choices hurt other people or make life harder for
other people, so while we do have freedom of choice, we also don't
want people to hate us, so we also keep other people in mind when we
choose."

So now *you* need to keep her in mind when you're choosing. Be aware
of when you're making her life harder just to make your life easier.
(She'll probably be hyperaware and let you know! ;-) You need to
treat her with the respect you would another adult. If you're
imposing on her, thank her for her time (and repay her if it's a big
deal). The more you respect her as a fellow human, the more forgiving
she'll be, and the more you'll be someone she wants to help out.

What are the kinds of things you feel she shouldn't have a choice in?

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~~ Since this is new to me I probably won't radically unschool from the get go since I need the security of the structure that goes with conventional schooling.~~~~

Just recognize that it's your own issue and no wonder your child balks at the hypocrisy of being told she has choice when she doesn't. I wouldn't have told her she has that freedom if she really isn't going to!

  ~~This being said, I plan to have subject boxes with different materials for my daughter to choose from.  If something particular strikes her interest we will take off from there.~~


Do you do this for yourself too? Think about how adults learn best. Think about how you treat your spouse or your best friends. I don't have "subject boxes" at work or at home or anywhere in life. THis is a way society treats school-age children only. It's weird.

~~ I guess I am semi-unschooling but hope to be doing it more and more as I let go of the conventional way of thinking about education and get more comfortable with homeschooling in general.~~

I don't understand how you can "semi" NOT do schooling. Unschooling is not-schooling...it is trust that people learn best when something sparks their interest and that we don't need to manipulate or coerce them to learn.

~~So my problem is that now when I ask or tell my daughter to do something and she doesn't particularly want to do it she'll complain and whine that it isn't her choice.~~~

Smart kid. YOu told her she'd have choice but it wasn't the truth at all. If you're going to not give her the choice, then don't tell her she'll have it. We're not talking about a situation where she wants to hurt someone and you're taking away that option...we're talking about letting her choose activities right? Breathe deep and realize that she learned an entire language without "subject boxes". Pretend like today is summer vacation and have FUN together. The learning will keep happening. Promise.


~~ It just feels to me like she is taking advantage of this new philosophy and I don't quite know when I should put my foot down and when to let her decide.~~

No, she's just seeing through a falsehood. Stop putting your foot down and just have fun with her. Life is too short.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Jennifer Croce

I appreciate your input and just wanted to clarify my situation a bit.  I hope to get to where you are with this perspective of life and education..  Keep in mind I am the product of the formal school experience and it is difficult to change over night.
 
Just recognize that it's your own issue and no wonder your child balks at the hypocrisy of being told she has choice when she doesn't. I wouldn't have told her she has that freedom if she really isn't going to!

I do see my approach as more of a choice compared to what she does at school.  At school there is very little choice over what she learns and the type of work she does.  The teacher simply passes out worksheets or dictates the assignment.  At home she would have a choice over the things she learns, the materials she uses, the amount of time she has to work on it and when she wants to move onto something else.  Keep in mind this whole philosophy is new to me, I also have to contend with my husband who isn't on board with this idea or approach.  I feel my approach is middle ground for now with the hope to dive completely into unschooling as we all get used to this new way of looking at life and learning. 

Do you do this for yourself too? Think about how adults learn best. Think about how you treat your spouse or your best friends. I don't have "subject boxes" at work or at home or anywhere in life. this is a way society treats school-age children only. It's weird.
 
I am a very structured/organized person and do have folders and other ways of organizing my personal materials.  I plan to use the subject boxes as a jumping off point as a way to see what my daughter is interested in and discover the style or way she learns the best.  I think she will initially respond better to the things she is used to doing instead of taking away all the structure at once and telling her to just do whatever she wants.  Children do need structure to feel safe and be able to grow.  I also have to submit documentation to the superintendent as to what she is learning so I do need some tangible information not just that I let her do her thing and trust that she is learning (although I do personally believe that will happen). 

Smart kid. YOu told her she'd have choice but it wasn't the truth at all. If you're going to not give her the choice, then don't tell her she'll have it. We're not talking about a situation where she wants to hurt someone and you're taking away that option...we' re talking about letting her choose activities right? Breathe deep and realize that she learned an entire language without "subject boxes". Pretend like today is summer vacation and have FUN together. The learning will keep happening.
 
I also told my daughter that there were going to be times or situations where she won't have a choice over what we do or need to get done.  She is pulling this card at inappropriate times like when I need to do an errand and obviously can't leave her home alone.  She is the child and I am the parent and for now do have the authority to decide what she can have some control over and what she can't.  I am taking baby steps with this new way of parenting and educating.  I am figuring it out as I go and maybe need to use different language when talking to her about what homeschooling will be. 
 
Thanks,
Jen 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

It might help you a lot if you actual come up with an educational philosophy. Really sit down and think about what it is that you feel you can only learn in a structured environment and why and why, at 6, your daughter needs to have those things structured into her life.

My educational philosophy is based on the idea that learning happens all the time. Simon and Linnaea, as am I, are learning from everything in their world all the time. What they learn in any given moment has a huge amount to do with how they feel. If they aren't at their best, if they are hungry or tired or feeling that buzzy grouchy feeling that can come from feeling pushed to do something, their learning is far more to do with how they feel and how unfair something is than it is anything to do with what is going on in that moment. The learning is rarely about the same as it is when it is something they are interested in at a moment when they are feeling relaxed and happy and sated. If your daughter is feeling pinned down by the rules you say you are freeing her from than her learning will have little to do with what you want and much more to do with how she feels.

At 9 and almost 12 I can think of nothing that they have needed structured environment to learn. They have chosen on occasion to take classes like karate or horseback riding, those were skills that they wanted to pursue for a while within a tutorial environment. When they were done with those classes they stopped going, their choice.

It helps alot to say yes more than to abandon all rules at a go. It makes you tense, whatever it does to your child, and less likely to feel relaxed and happy during the transition.

Schuyler






________________________________
From: Jennifer Croce <jennifercroce37@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 24 March, 2009 2:50:19 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] How do you control the power of choice clarification

Sorry if I wasn't very clear, I am still in the planning stage so I don't have this all figured out yet. Since this is new to me I probably won't radically unschool from the get go since I need the security of the structure that goes with conventional schooling. This being said, I plan to have subject boxes with different materials for my daughter to choose from. If something particular strikes her interest we will take off from there. I guess I am semi-unschooling but hope to be doing it more and more as I let go of the conventional way of thinking about education and get more comfortable with homeschooling in general. I have been explaining that she will have more choice over what she does and how she learns it compared to school where she is simply given worksheets or has to take a spelling test .

So my problem is that now when I ask or tell my daughter to do something and she doesn't particularly want to do it she'll complain and whine that it isn't her choice. I am trying to think of a specific example but of course nothing comes to mind right at this second. It just feels to me like she is taking advantage of this new philosophy and I don't quite know when I should put my foot down and when to let her decide. I feel it is confusing to tell her sometimes she has choices and sometimes she doesn't. Sorry, I know I'm not explaining this well, I am tired and feeling a bit overwhelmed with all of this. I appreciate everyone's advice and support. I think I am just suffering from anxiety and fear about whether or not I am doing the right thing.

Thanks,
Jen




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DJ250

Jennifer,

I think one idea that's central to unschooling, esp. radical unschooling (if you want to call it that!) is treating your child as a partner and guide, rather than putting yourself in the position of director.
So, finding a time together when you're both able to go to the store is more beneficial to both of you than for you to be the one dictating when it's time to go to the store. Kid is calling me so I'll write more later. :)

~Melissa, in MD

----- Original Message -----
From: Jennifer Croce
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do you control the power of choice clarification


I appreciate your input and just wanted to clarify my situation a bit. I hope to get to where you are with this perspective of life and education.. Keep in mind I am the product of the formal school experience and it is difficult to change over night.

Just recognize that it's your own issue and no wonder your child balks at the hypocrisy of being told she has choice when she doesn't. I wouldn't have told her she has that freedom if she really isn't going to!

I do see my approach as more of a choice compared to what she does at school. At school there is very little choice over what she learns and the type of work she does. The teacher simply passes out worksheets or dictates the assignment. At home she would have a choice over the things she learns, the materials she uses, the amount of time she has to work on it and when she wants to move onto something else. Keep in mind this whole philosophy is new to me, I also have to contend with my husband who isn't on board with this idea or approach. I feel my approach is middle ground for now with the hope to dive completely into unschooling as we all get used to this new way of looking at life and learning.

Do you do this for yourself too? Think about how adults learn best. Think about how you treat your spouse or your best friends. I don't have "subject boxes" at work or at home or anywhere in life. this is a way society treats school-age children only. It's weird.

I am a very structured/organized person and do have folders and other ways of organizing my personal materials. I plan to use the subject boxes as a jumping off point as a way to see what my daughter is interested in and discover the style or way she learns the best. I think she will initially respond better to the things she is used to doing instead of taking away all the structure at once and telling her to just do whatever she wants. Children do need structure to feel safe and be able to grow. I also have to submit documentation to the superintendent as to what she is learning so I do need some tangible information not just that I let her do her thing and trust that she is learning (although I do personally believe that will happen).

Smart kid. YOu told her she'd have choice but it wasn't the truth at all. If you're going to not give her the choice, then don't tell her she'll have it. We're not talking about a situation where she wants to hurt someone and you're taking away that option...we' re talking about letting her choose activities right? Breathe deep and realize that she learned an entire language without "subject boxes". Pretend like today is summer vacation and have FUN together. The learning will keep happening.

I also told my daughter that there were going to be times or situations where she won't have a choice over what we do or need to get done. She is pulling this card at inappropriate times like when I need to do an errand and obviously can't leave her home alone. She is the child and I am the parent and for now do have the authority to decide what she can have some control over and what she can't. I am taking baby steps with this new way of parenting and educating. I am figuring it out as I go and maybe need to use different language when talking to her about what homeschooling will be.

Thanks,
Jen

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Tammy Curry

I will admit it takes a lot to become an unschooling family. At first I thought we could apply it just to academics. Then my husband and I sat and talked about it, he was on board with homeschooling but he felt that as the parents we still needed to be in complete control. So we compromised. What a disaster. I got my husband to finally read a lot of the books, websites, blogs, etc out there about unschooling. I wanted him to process the information in his own way so he could come to the same conclusion I already had. Once he began to assimilate all of that and really started paying attention to what was going on with the kids and myself he jumped on board. Could we be considered radical unschoolers, probably not yet. DH and I still have our hang ups but we realize that they are our hang ups and not our kids and we all talk about it and the things that we can do to change them. It doesn't happen over night but if you relax and trust in your basic
instincts and your children's instincts it will happen faster than you think.

As for controlling the power of choice as you put it. You are empowering your daughter by giving her a choice and then to control that decision making process isn't really a choice. She is going to make good ones, bad ones and indifferent ones. It is part of learning. Unfortunately it is something that we as adults and the way most of us have been condition by society that we believe kids are incapable of making choices on their own. They aren't little adults but they definitely have the same intelligence and abilities that we have as adults. The difference boils down to, in my opinion, the number of years experience and the types of experiences we have as adults to put behind our decisions. That is what we need to share with and show our kids.


I love structure and organization and have all of my stuff organized into folders, etc. I think my daughter rebelled more against the school like structure we tried to install than anything else. Believe it or not just by observing the things she likes to do you will find out where her interests are. As for documentation it could be quite simple. Think about any activity and see how many school subjects you can apply to it. Keep some sort of journal just for the purpose of jotting down things that have been done during the day and think about how they apply to each traditional subject. Grocery shopping, for example, math, reading, science, etc all can be applied. The math aspect, well you have $100 to purchase what you need for the week. In order to take in account taxes you will round up items to the nearest dollar, for instance. Then you have to add these figures and subtract from 100 to see if you have enough to keep going. When she gets older you can
teach percents this way and decimals. You will also have to count to make sure you have the correct number of items if you want to try for an express lane. Reading, it is wise to read the nutrition and ingredient labels, store circular, sale signs, etc. Science (ok I am biased and it happens to be one of my favorite subjects) looking for spoilage and talking about what may or may not have caused spoilage; preventing spoilage when you get home. Cheeses that are made with mold, bacteria in yogurt, yeast. You can cover geography as to why some things are only available locally and why they are available in other places. Where foods come from, international food aisle. This will lead to discussions and research about different cultures. And that was just one trip to the grocery store.

To feel safe children's needs are very simple. Love, trust, compassion and understanding. Structure is by product of previous centuries during the industrialization. When we moved from an agrarian society to an industrialized one. There was structure on the farm but it was not as time sensitive as what was needed for industry and manufacturing. The idea that we need to have a very set structure for our children has come from what society has been groomed over the last century to believe. It produces good laborers. It produces good factory workers. It produces people who will not question the status quo. Farm life required a certain routine not structure. Industry requires structure such as strict schedules, hierarchies from the little workers all the way up to the CEO. The words routine and structure are often interchanged and not correclty.

I agree that children need a semblance of routine they come to expect things to happen at certain times like the sun rising and setting. There is comfort in knowing what is happening and what will be happening. If you child knows your husband is going to leave for work at 6 am and be home by 5 pm it becomes part of their day, their routine. To make that into structure would mean you are getting your child up at 5 am to have breakfast with daddy, then see him off to work, then start school, break for lunch, finish school work and then get ready for daddy to come. (I am not saying this is what you do, I am trying to illustrate the difference between routine and structure.) Every minute is accounted for and has something required of it. Knowing that daddy leaves and comes home at the same time and that inbetween is time with mommy to get through various parts of the day is routine. It doesn't have to be at exact times, just regular pattern to the day.

For many different reasons I personally have a weird schedule. However, my kids have fallen into a routine that doesn't necessarily match my own. They get up when they are ready in the morning, I avoid waking them up before they are ready it leads to a horrible day unless there is a real reason for it. My daughter eats breakfast right away, my son doesn't like to eat right away. Around 11 am breakfast is done, we work as a unit to clean up so that we can get on with the day's adventure, whether it is gaming, reading, field trip, whatever. Lunch/snack gets tossed into some point in the day. My husband works nights so he spends times with the kids in the late afternoon and evening and then we start quieting the house down. My daughter likes get ready for bed and typically will watch one of her shows and then go off to read a book her play quietly in her room. She is starting to express a bit more independence. Our son has been transitioning from sleeping
in our bed to sleeping in his own so he asks for mommy to read to him and sing him a song, then daddy has to do the same and before you know it he is off to sleep. That is routine not structure, the children do actually get a little lost when things change, depending on the change.




Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
http://myspace.com/mamabeart00




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missalexmissalex

Hey Jennifer,

My kid is only almost 2....but my kid is almost 2! So I use A LOT of stuff I've learned here in getting her places we need to go.

RE: "I thought I had a choice!"

One key for us is, sometimes, the choice is, not IF, but how.

Also, the delayed YES. YES, you CAN do that...after we take care of this time-sensitive thing. Often, for us, dogwalking.

"You can help me choose how to make this fun--or at least less boring. Do you want to stop at x y or z on the way home? Do you want to listen to x or y in the car? Or bring a game? Or play a car game? Do you want to bring stuff with us to play with? What song should we sing?" etc

"I don't really want to do this right now either, but it's our last chance because --- is about to close, OR we need to have this for --- tomorrow, or whatever. Let's go quick so we can come back and do (that thing the kid wanted to do)"

After multiple attempts to leave for something that must happen immediately: "Sorry, kiddo, but I don't know a better way of doing this. We gotta go." Needless to say, we avoid that kind of situation. But it comes. I try to couch it as a kindness to someone. "Max needs us to come home and walk him!" "Grandpa is waiting for us and I don't want him to be sad that we're not there." etc. In a non-errand situation, I am honest about my need for food and sleep.

I HATED it when my mom told me, "Life isn't fair." Life isn't fair. But it didn't make sense as a kid, it just irritated me. The other was, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Huh?

HTH-
Alex
mom to Katya, 21 mos


However I am now finding that I am having a bit more difficulty with her because when she doesn't want to do something she'll complain that it isn't her choice. I have told her there will be times she doesn't have a choice and that it won't be her way all the time.
>
> Thanks,
> Jen
>

Robin Bentley

On Mar 24, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Jennifer Croce wrote:

> I appreciate your input and just wanted to clarify my situation a
> bit. I hope to get to where you are with this perspective of life
> and education.. Keep in mind I am the product of the formal school
> experience and it is difficult to change over night.
>
I think the overwhelming majority of people here were products of
formal schooling. Here's a great page (with more links) on
deschooling, a process necessary for unschooling to work.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Longtime unschoolers continue to deschool throughout their kids'
lives, usually because old "school-think" continues to come up.

Robin B.

Ren Allen

~~I agree that children need a semblance of routine they come to expect things to happen at certain times like the sun rising and setting. There is comfort in knowing what is happening and what will be happening. ~~

More so for some children than others. I've also found that our routines flex and change with the seasons, with developmental stages, with the pulse and flow of life. What naturally evolves as our routine this month might change next month.

I agree with what you wrote about structure.
Kids don't necessarily need structure, they need to be surrounded by healthy people they can depend upon for love, nurture, responsiveness etc...

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Nicole Willoughby

May I ask what Country or state you are in ?

Nicole

Never play with hot lava in the house ~Alyssa,5




--- On Tue, 3/24/09, Jennifer Croce <jennifercroce37@...> wrote:

From: Jennifer Croce <jennifercroce37@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How do you control the power of choice clarification
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 1:04 PM












I appreciate your input and just wanted to clarify my situation a bit.  I hope to get to where you are with this perspective of life and education..  Keep in mind I am the product of the formal school experience and it is difficult to change over night.

 

Just recognize that it's your own issue and no wonder your child balks at the hypocrisy of being told she has choice when she doesn't. I wouldn't have told her she has that freedom if she really isn't going to!



I do see my approach as more of a choice compared to what she does at school.  At school there is very little choice over what she learns and the type of work she does.  The teacher simply passes out worksheets or dictates the assignment.  At home she would have a choice over the things she learns, the materials she uses, the amount of time she has to work on it and when she wants to move onto something else.  Keep in mind this whole philosophy is new to me, I also have to contend with my husband who isn't on board with this idea or approach.  I feel my approach is middle ground for now with the hope to dive completely into unschooling as we all get used to this new way of looking at life and learning. 



Do you do this for yourself too? Think about how adults learn best. Think about how you treat your spouse or your best friends. I don't have "subject boxes" at work or at home or anywhere in life. this is a way society treats school-age children only. It's weird.

 

I am a very structured/organize d person and do have folders and other ways of organizing my personal materials.  I plan to use the subject boxes as a jumping off point as a way to see what my daughter is interested in and discover the style or way she learns the best.  I think she will initially respond better to the things she is used to doing instead of taking away all the structure at once and telling her to just do whatever she wants.  Children do need structure to feel safe and be able to grow.  I also have to submit documentati on to the superintendent as to what she is learning so I do need some tangible information not just that I let her do her thing and trust that she is learning (although I do personally believe that will happen). 



Smart kid. YOu told her she'd have choice but it wasn't the truth at all. If you're going to not give her the choice, then don't tell her she'll have it. We're not talking about a situation where she wants to hurt someone and you're taking away that option...we' re talking about letting her choose activities right? Breathe deep and realize that she learned an entire language without "subject boxes". Pretend like today is summer vacation and have FUN together. The learning will keep happening.

 

I also told my daughter that there were going to be times or situations where she won't have a choice over what we do or need to get done.  She is pulling this card at inappropriate times like when I need to do an errand and obviously can't leave her home alone.  She is the child and I am the parent and for now do have the authority to decide what she can have some control over and what she can't.  I am taking baby steps with this new way of parenting and educating.  I am figuring it out as I go and maybe need to use different language when talking to her about what homeschooling will be. 

 

Thanks,

Jen 



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Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Jennifer Croce wrote:

> Keep in mind I am the product of the formal school experience and
> it is difficult to change over night.

It's okay if you don't want to change or aren't ready to change or
feel you can't change. We're not here to judge you for not changing.

We are here, though, to help the people who are ready to change.
People have perfectly understandable reasons for not changing, but
what's *really* hard is changing. And changing is what the list
exists to support. Supporting someone in not changing -- no matter
how understandable their reasons -- makes it more difficult for the
people who are doing the work to change.

Maybe this analogy will help.

Those who aren't unschooling are like people who have packed swimmies
all over them to protect themselves from downing. They can get in the
water and thrash about, but the swimmies get in the way of swimming.
But the swimmies also protect them from what they fear.

We understand the fears. Many of us have been where you are. We can
sympathize, but we can't help you hold onto some of your swimmies
because it makes it harder for those who are doing the brave and hard
work of letting go of their swimmies.

It's scary to let go. We *know* it's scary!

So we're here to help those who want to do the scary thing and go in
the deep end without their swimmies. We're happy help you with each
step you take toward that but we can't help you compensate for the
parts you want to cling to because that makes it harder for those who
actually do let it all go.

You're welcome to ask questions. You're welcome to "watch" (read
along). You're welcome ask for help in something you've let go of,
but if something you're still clinging to is getting in the way we
*have* to point it out for the others who are also reading who have
let it go or are thinking of letting it go. It's okay if you decide
to hold onto it for now, but if you bring it to the list, it will be
shown how it's holding you back.

> I am a very structured/organized person and do have folders and
> other ways of organizing my personal materials.

Ah, but do you let someone *else* organize your stuff into the
categories *they* think it should be put in?

Do you ask to alter something to suit your needs and have them say
No, I know more so I'll show you the right way until you get why my
way's the right way and why you're way's the wrong way.

> I plan to use the subject boxes as a jumping off point as a way to
> see what my daughter is interested in

Life doesn't come in boxes. Life is stuff all jumbled together. From
that chaos we focus on what we think is cool.

While it makes more sense that we should learn better by isolating
what we are interested in so we could focus on it exclusively, that
isn't how we're hard wired to learn. We're hard wired to learn in
context, to see how what we're interested in connects to other
things. To see other things we're interested in relate.

While it would make more sense if kids learned one word at a time,
that isn't how kids learn. They're immersed in language and get
excited when they recognize something familiar in the chaos. And that
familiar thing connects to other things around it which become
familiar. And then there are more familiar things to catch our
attention in the chaos.

We *want* to pull familiar from chaos. We want to create our *own*
order from the chaos. *That's* how we're hard wired to learn.

Learning from boxes is like following someone else's instructions on
which puzzle piece to put where into the jigsaw puzzle. It's someone
handing you the solution to and crossword puzzle for you to fill the
boxes in from.

We want and need to discover things on our own. We want and need to
make the connections for ourselves.

> I think she will initially respond better to the things she is used
> to doing instead of taking away all the structure at once and
> telling her to just do whatever she wants.

While you're right that "Here's the world, do whatever you want to
do," could be overwhelming. And not just for kids who have been in
school! *Some* people are great at zeroing on one thing out of a
million choices. Other people need some help to making a choice. But
help making a choice isn't the same as having the choices
preorganized and predecided by someone.

> Children do need structure to feel safe and be able to grow.

So they say.

Children need to feel safe and secure. They need to feel they can
depend on whatever makes them feel secure. What that actually looks
like in practice will be different for each child.

Some kids need to know what the day is going to be like. Some kids
enjoy surprises.

Check out Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

This is what we need to grow. If the lowest needs aren't met, we
can't attend to the higher needs. No where is there structure on the
list:

Basic:
Breathing, food, water, sex, sleep, homeostasis (maintain optimal
body temperature), excretion

Next level:
Security of body, of employment, of resources, of morality, of the
family, of health, of property

Next level:
friendship, family, sexual intimacy

Next level:
self-esteem, confidence, achievement, respect of others, respect by
others

Top level:
morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of
prejudice, acceptance of facts.

The problem with most child rearing practices is that they view
children as though they were some species other than human. Children
are humans. They are more dependent on others to get their needs met,
but they have human needs and they react as humans to having their
needs thwarted.

Humans don't need structure to feel safe and grow. Some humans do
like to structure their environment. Some humans will even freely
gravitate towards someone else's structure. But no healthy human
wants others to dictate the structure of the environment for them
without having a say.

> I also have to submit documentation to the superintendent as to
> what she is learning so I do need some tangible information not
> just that I let her do her thing and trust that she is learning
> (although I do personally believe that will happen).

There are unschoolers in every state. They've figured out how to do
this from giving their children freedom to live life. The best thing
is to find out from them :-) They've already done the work for you.
You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Find your state homeschooling
group. They will have information. They will probably have a list of
local support groups which might include unschooling groups.

But rest assured, you *don't* need to structure your daughter's
environment in order to unschool.

> She is pulling this card at inappropriate times like when I need to
> do an errand and obviously can't leave her home alone. She is the
> child and I am the parent and for now do have the authority to
> decide what she can have some control over and what she can't.

It could be you let her know about learning freedom at the stage of
development where kids realize the world isn't divided into kids who
need protected and adults who have all the answers. It's divided into
those with power and those without power. This is The Truth. It could
be if you hadn't mentioned more freedom in learning she wouldn't have
seen The Truth in a big flash. It would have come a little slower.
But she would have eventually seen it.

Now, you're asking us how to stuff the genie back into the bottle so
she's ignorant of the The True again ;-)

One of the things we *strongly* encourage is respect for kids. This
builds strong relationships. Treat them like you would fellow humans.
If you wouldn't demand your husband accompany you to the store, then
it's not respectful to do to a child. *Instead* you can say "Hey, I
need to go to the store later. Let's see how we can fit that into our
day. And after the store we can go to the playground." (That's *one*
option.) If you're imposing on someone's time, treat it like you'd
want someone else to treat you if they needed to impose on your time.

She's being suddenly "disrespectful" of your needs because that's the
way she's been treated. Now it's pay back time ;-) You didn't realize
you were being disrespectful! You didn't do it on purpose. You've
just been doing what all parents do: trying to make life with kids
more convenient. But once you move away from conventional parenting,
you realize how *profoundly* disrespectful conventional parenting is.
We treat kids in ways we'd *never* treat a fellow (adult) human
being. At least not ones we cared about!

We do huge amounts of damage to our relationships with kids in the
name of forming them into better people, and into making life easier
for ourselves. And most parents' relationships with their teens shows
it! Society thinks teens are naturally snarky and rebellious. It's
not true. Respected kids grow into respectful kids and respectful
teens. Unschoolers know this :-) (If you go to an unschooling
conference you can see it in the long-time unschooled kids.)

If you go here:

http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/

And read the section on respect on the right (and anything else that
catches your interest!) you'll get what we're saying.

Again, if you can give some more examples -- do it in a separate
email so those who answer can focus just on give you ideas for when
she's "taking advantage" -- people can show what I'm trying to
explain in action. Most people picture giving up control as turning
the control over to the child. That's no better! It's about
respecting them as humans and working with them so everyone's needs
are met.

> I am taking baby steps with this new way of parenting and
> educating. I am figuring it out as I go and maybe need to use
> different language when talking to her about what homeschooling
> will be.

Perhaps. It all depends on what your goals are.

You'll be able to explain better the more you're able to see and
understand the world through her eyes. To see and feel how powerless
kids are and see and feel how much it sucks to be a little person who
is dependent on others to meet their needs. The website I listed
should help you start getting into her world. Once you're in her
world and talking to her from the viewpoint, your relationship should
improve.

Joyce

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Jennifer Croce

We live in Billerica, MA about 20 miles north of Boston.




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MOM4NEALYS

Wow that was great for those of us who are starting this journey! Thanks
for your time and detailed explanation!

Misty (Darion14, Kaylynn13, Jaydyn3, Mikayla2, Azlyn1)



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