Kelly Lovejoy

The following was a post by a member still on moderation. I gave her the option to have it deleted, but she says she has pretty thick skin. <G>



I knew it would spark a lot of conversation, so I think it's good to have on the list. I just wanted to make sure she could handle the heat> <G> And...uhmmm...I have a lot to say about it.




So I'm posting it anonymously...just in case. <BWG>


 ~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson








> 
> > I know I am going to get slammed by this one and i don't mean to 
> > start a debate but I want to support Betsie in this. 
> > 
> > I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best choice for 
> > reading. I think they totally squash the imagination. I think "young 
> > readers" like Harry Potter (yes, i have reread the series 6 times-
> > geek i am), Chronicles and tons of others that have yet to make it 
> > to the big screen totally foster the imagination. they don't show you 
> > a picture of what something looks like. they DESCRIBE it and you form 
> > the vision for yourself. it opens up a whole world for you to create 
> > your on vision based upon descriptions not visuals on a piece of 
> > paper that allow no further imaginings or to think outside of the 
> > described box. It's like
when babies move from "picture books" to 
> > books with "words". Now they have just given you more picture books 
> > but in a more adult form.
> > 
> > 
> > How about books from popular movies? Star wars? Spiderwick? Even the 
> > silly quickies like Geronimo stilton (may be to easy for him but the 
> > stories can be finished in a couple hrs). Encyclopedia brown? They 
> > don't have to be "classics" or great literary works but I do see why 
> > you would want him to move away from the graphic to more imagination 
> > building books.
> > 
> > I am not saying you have to force the hardy boys on your son but you 
> > don't have to buy him the "comic book types" either. We read out loud 
> > all the time. My husband reads to me in bed and visa versa. My son 
> > perfers that we read to him. Right now it's huck finn (he loved tom 
> > sawyer..especially imagining what it would look like to poke a tick). 
> > It's something we do as an intimate bonding. we all curl up at 
> > different points and read to each other. the others get the benefit 
> > of closing their eyes and having the story unfold to them. maybe you 
> > could try that? not as a substitution but as an addition? Maybe 
> > hearing some of the non-graphic books might spur him on to the other.
> > 
> > my son loves calvin and hobbs-as do i but sorry, there isn't enough 
> > room on my=2
0bookshelves for it
> > 
> > again, this wasn't meant to tick off anyone, cause offense etc but to 
> > let betsie know she isn't the only one out there who would rather her 
> > son not read that err, stuff.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>>
Okay, I'll bite....<g>

>>
>>> I know I am going to get slammed by this one and i don't mean to
>>> start a debate but I want to support Betsie in this.

Hmm. I don't think "slammed" will be the word(s). Logical argument
provided? Parent- child relationship advice? An alternate way to look
at it presented to you? Probably that's what you'll get <g>.
>>>
>>>
>>> I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best choice for
>>> reading.

For you. Why wouldn't it be different for your kids? What happens if
your son or daughter *loves* these graphic novels? If you can't hide
your distaste for them, how will they feel about their choices?

>>> I think they totally squash the imagination.

I don't agree. Some people's imaginations take off with visual input.
Some with auditory. Some with words on a page. Some with scent. Some
with touch.

>>> I think "young
>>> readers" like Harry Potter (yes, i have reread the series 6 times-
>>> geek i am), Chronicles and tons of others that have yet to make it
>>> to the big screen totally foster the imagination. they don't show
>>> you
>>> a picture of what something looks like. they DESCRIBE it and you
>>> form
>>> the vision for yourself. it opens up a whole world for you to create
>>> your on vision based upon descriptions not visuals on a piece of
>>> paper that allow no further imaginings or to think outside of the
>>> described box.

See above. I don't think it's true that visuals allow no further
imagination. Cartoonists study other cartoonists to advance their own
ideas and skills. So do movie producers. So do fine artists.

>>> It's like
> when babies move from "picture books" to
>>> books with "words". Now they have just given you more picture books
>>> but in a more adult form.

Hmm. This seems that you are saying that there is a logical, natural
and obligatory progression from visual (i.e. picture books) to print
(i.e. novels). It just isn't so, in my experience.

Graphic novels can have very sophisticated language to accompany the
art. It *is* art. A person can gain an appreciation for words, story-
telling, art and creative methods through graphic novels. Manga is a
wonder to me. Complicated story lines, beautifully drawn characters
that I couldn't imagine in my wildest dreams, cultural information, a
new language. This is no better than a toddler's picture book?
(Actually, I think reading the New York Times to babies is equally
good. It's the words and how you say them that can be so satisfying
for both baby and parent.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How about books from popular movies? Star wars? Spiderwick? Even the
>>> silly quickies like Geronimo stilton (may be to easy for him but the
>>> stories can be finished in a couple hrs). Encyclopedia brown? They
>>> don't have to be "classics" or great literary works but I do see why
>>> you would want him to move away from the graphic to more imagination
>>> building books.

So, it's okay to take a visual medium (amazing in its own right) and
make it into print, but not the other way around?

"Imagination building books" is an interesting phrase. Every book I
own helps me build my imagination. Graphic novels and picture books
included!
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not saying you have to force the hardy boys on your son but you
>>> don't have to buy him the "comic book types" either. We read out
>>> loud
>>> all the time. My husband reads to me in bed and visa versa. My son
>>> perfers that we read to him. Right now it's huck finn (he loved tom
>>> sawyer..especially imagining what it would look like to poke a
>>> tick).
>>> It's something we do as an intimate bonding. we all curl up at
>>> different points and read to each other. the others get the benefit
>>> of closing their eyes and having the story unfold to them.

Reading together is a delightful experience and I miss it now that my
dd prefers to read happily on her own (graphic novels, manga, novels,
reference books, mysteries, comics, computer screens, etc. <g>). She
lapped up those words and the cuddles. But, she got to choose what she
wanted to read, then as now, without my judgment about the materials.
Sure, I'd strew what I thought was interesting and she could pick it
up or not. It's been fascinating to watch her decision-making.

>>> maybe you
>>> could try that? not as a substitution but as an addition? Maybe
>>> hearing some of the non-graphic books might spur him on to the
>>> other.

It might. But it might not. Then what?

>>>
>>> my son loves calvin and hobbs-as do i but sorry, there isn't enough
>>> room on my=2
> 0bookshelves for it

Good grief, why not? It's brilliant stuff! Not everything with print
only is on my bookshelf, nor everything graphic. But Calvin & Hobbes?
Always!

Here's an appropriate Calvin & Hobbes for these days. The strip
prompted an investment blogger to use his imagination for a post!

http://www.pinoymoneytalk.com/2009/02/11/calvin-hobbes-comic-strip/

>
>>>
>>> again, this wasn't meant to tick off anyone, cause offense etc but
>>> to
>>> let betsie know she isn't the only one out there who would rather
>>> her
>>> son not read that err, stuff.

Ticked off? Nah...

I think that if Betsie were to talk to more parents who send their
kids to school, or do school-at-home, she wouldn't be alone, either.
But, to unschool well, it's helpful to think in terms of building up a
relationship with our kids - one that breeds trust and respect. Part
of that is understanding our kids' passions and not only accepting
them, but enjoying those passions with them, in whatever way we can.
Feeding those passions, in fact. It's funny how kids will go on to
different interests when you let them get whatever it is they need
from what they are doing right now. It's also funny how they don't
when we restrict them for whatever noble reason we think we should.

I'm excerpting Pam S.'s article "How to Be a Good Unschooler" here,
because she puts it so well:

2. Homeschooled children who grow up in a stimulating and enriched
environment surrounded by family and friends who are generally
interested and interesting, will learn all kinds of things and
repeatedly surprise you with what they know. If they are supported in
following their own passions, they will build strengths upon strengths
and excel in their own ways whether that is academic, artistic,
athletic, interpersonal, or whichever direction that particular child
develops. One thing leads to another. A passion for playing in the
dirt at six can become a passion for protecting the natural
environment at 16 and a career as a forest ranger as an adult. You
just never ever know where those childhood interests will eventually
lead. Be careful not to squash them; instead, nurture them.

Robin B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele James-Parham

-=- I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best choice for
reading. -=-

I think it's great that you know how you feel about graphic novels and
that you know they are not the best choice *for you*.

-=- It's like when babies move from "picture books" to books with
"words". Now they have just given you more picture books but in a more
adult form. -=-

I (as a grown woman) happen to greatly enjoy picture books (which
often have some words) AND I greatly enjoy books with no pictures. The
graphic novels that we have in our house (both those "intended" for
adults & children) usually have tons of words and the graphic aspects
of them help the reader understand more about the setting and often
times help them make vital connections in the plot that they missed
(or might have missed) by only reading the print novel (many of our
graphic novels are graphic versions of print books).

What are your feelings about graphic novels like "Owly". Owly, has
VERY few words to no words. We LOVE these, because we get to narrate
the story and make it up as we go with the visual as a prompt. Anyone
who has watched a child learn to read or studied the process of how
people learn to read, would know that story-telling is a vital aspect
of the process. Graphic novels can be huge inspirations for story-telling.

Not to mention that most children who read graphic novels are often
moved to make their own, which causes them to draw, make up stories,
develop characters, settings and so on. These seem like fantastic
things to me.

We just finished the graphic novels based on "Wind in the Willows".
We've now watched the movies, the series, read the books and graphic
novels. We have the best understanding of those characters and of
their world (which is a beautiful one).

-=- My son loves calvin and hobbs-as do i but sorry, there isn't
enough room on my bookshelves for it -=-

We love C & H too! I would suggest that you find another bookshelf, or
stack the books in a corner, use them as end tables or something. I
couldn't imagine telling my son or my husband that we didn't have room
for 'their' books. AND lord knows, we don't have room for the books we
have now...but they all have homes (even the ones that are boxed up
and rotated).

-=- again, this wasn't meant to tick off anyone, cause offense etc but
to let betsie know she isn't the only one out there who would rather
her son not read that err, stuff. -=-

For me, unschooling isn't about me and what *I might rather* someone
do or not do. I'd want people to seek out what brings them the most
Joy and if that means shelves full of graphic novels, then that is
awesome and I will do my best to support that passion.

Peace and Love.
Michele James-Parham
www.naturalattachment.net

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 27, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Kelly Lovejoy wrote:

>
> I hate graphic books.

Then you shouldn't read them for yourself.

But if your child loves them, it's relationship building to get over
that and give a serious shot at figuring out what your child loves
about them.

> I don't think they are the best choice for
> reading.

What do you base your conclusion on? I'm curious.

On the list are real life unschooled kids who have learned to read by
reading whatever they thought was worth reading whose reading is
fine. From their results, reading what someone loves is the best
choice for reading, whether that be screens on a video game or
novels or message boards or instructions or comics.

> I think they totally squash the imagination.

That's a statement that gets repeated but what foundation is there
for it? It just sounds like it should be true. (Except to an artist!)

If it's true that pictures squash the imagination, then stories would
too. Shouldn't we be keeping kids from hearing other people's stories
for fear of squashing their imaginations? TV and movies -- hey, and
plays for that matter too! -- should *kill* imagination since it's
not just stories and pictures, but movement and sound.

I'm sure that sounds sarcastic, but they're serious questions. Why
would pictures squash imagination and not words? Why wouldn't plays
cripple imagination?

One way writers learn to write is by absorbing other people's writing.

The way artists learn to create art is by absorbing other people's art.

Art is not created in a vacuum.

As someone who plays with both words and pictures -- I've even drawn
and written graphic novels with my daughter! -- unschooling parents
should know it's *all* valuable. Everything is fodder for creativity.
Words. Pictures. Songs. Real life. IMs. Music videos. Conversations.
Comics. Explosions. Commercials. Anything and everything might spark
a story or picture or song or other creation.

> it opens up a whole world for you to create
> your on vision based upon descriptions not visuals on a piece of
> paper that allow no further imaginings or to think outside of the
> described box.

You've pretty effectively dismissed the work every artist that's ever
lived if you think the only worthwhile imaginings are created from
words. That's not said to elicit an apology. It's said as a spark to
thought.

There is a skill to combining words and pictures. The visuals don't
merely support the words, nor do the words merely support the
pictures. They enhance each other. They work together to tell the
story. Neither can tell the story alone when done properly.

BTW, Scott McCloud, whose Understanding Comics book was mentioned (it
is excellent and needs read several times to absorb all that he's
covering -- in pictures *and* words) also has a website:

http://www.scottmccloud.com/

> It's like when babies move from "picture books" to
> books with "words". Now they have just given you more picture books
> but in a more adult form.

Picture books are an entirely different medium from graphic novels.
An artist illustrating a picture book doesn't use the same approach
as the artist of a graphic novel. They only resemble each other
superficially.


> I am not saying you have to force the hardy boys on your son but you
> don't have to buy him the "comic book types" either.

If someone wants to unschool, they will get in the way of it by
withholding what the child enjoys. The foundation of unschooling is
they will learn what they need through *their* interests.

If parent needs to impose their own superior choices onto their
child, they should look into eclectic homeschooling.


> my son loves calvin and hobbs-as do i but sorry, there isn't enough
> room on my bookshelves for it

Who are you apologizing to? The only one being hurt by your thoughts
is your son. But the apology rings false unless you're working to
correct it.

If you find room for the books you care about and don't find room for
the ones he wants to keep, then you're sending a clear message that
your interests are a lot more valuable than his. You're saying that
what you care about for him is more important than what he cares
about for him.

If your husband decided which of your books to keep based on what he
thought was worthwhile, how would you feel? How would you feel about
him?

> again, this wasn't meant to tick off anyone, cause offense etc

Disagreement is not evidence of either anger or offense.

I do get irritated by opinions that have been absorbed and repeated
back without critical analysis.

> but to
> let betsie know she isn't the only one out there who would rather her
> son not read that err, stuff.

If a parent can't find a way to at least appreciate what their
children enjoy, they're going to get in the way of unschooling. To
support the idea of not appreciating a child's likes will interfere
with other people's unschooling.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

>
> again, this wasn't meant to tick off anyone, cause offense etc but to
> let betsie know she isn't the only one out there who would rather her son
> not read that err, stuff.
>

I can point Betsie to many webpages that will support her "right" to quash
whatever joy her child finds. I hope deeply that Betsie, and those like
her, never ever find that support within the unschooling community.

Life is too short to say it's okay to rob your child of joy.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

>
> I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best choice for reading. I
> think they totally squash the imagination. I think "young
> readers" like Harry Potter (yes, i have reread the series 6 times- geek i
> am), Chronicles and tons of others that have yet to make it
> to the big screen totally foster the imagination. they don't show you a
> picture of what something looks like. they DESCRIBE it and you form the
> vision for yourself. it opens up a whole world for you to create your on
> vision based upon descriptions not visuals on a piece of paper that allow no
> further imaginings or to think outside of the described box.
>

I'm what the schools call a voracious reader. By 4th grade, I'd read every
single book in our little school's library. My 5th grade report card even
states "Diana reads too much."
And I couldn't finish a Tolkien book to save my life! I picked up The
Hobbit and LOTR several times; my "stuck in South Dakota" brain could not
grasp what he was trying to describe. Thank the gods for Peter Jackson!! He
saw what I could not and, lucky me, he shared it with the entire world :D
NOW I get it! Movies helped me understand a Classic Novel - easier and
better!!

It's like when babies move from "picture books" to books with "words". Now
> they have just given you more picture books but in a more adult form.
>

Are the daily funnies only for babies then? Tell that to Dick Tracy and
Nancy Worth!
If we actually did a study to see who purchased the most graphic novels
(including comic strip collections, ala Calvin and Hobbes) do you really
think the vast majority of the readers (and lovers) thereof would be those
moving from baby books to chapter books? Because I sure don't! I'd bet
lots and lots of money on those readers being Adults, fully capable of
reading chapter books, should they desire to do so... and yet, they buy the
books with the pictures... ask yourself why?
I don't think I've met a single unschooling parent young enough to have
grown up with graphic novels, certainly not at the state of popularity they
are today. I think every single 40 year old's reading background would be
very different, had we the opportunity at such variety (Oh, I'd'a loved to
have read V for Vendetta as a teenager!)

How about books from popular movies? Star wars? Spiderwick? Even the silly
> quickies like Geronimo stilton (may be to easy for him but the stories can
> be finished in a couple hrs). Encyclopedia brown? They don't have to be
> "classics" or great literary works but I do see why you would want him to
> move away from the graphic to more imagination building books.
>

I don't see why... could you please explain what graphic novels do *not*
have compared to these books.
I can't imagine a watered-down version of Spiderman can compare to the
intelligence of Calvin and Hobbes, let alone Sandman!
So silly is okay, as long as they are no pictures?

my son loves calvin and hobbs-as do i but sorry, there isn't enough room on
> my bookshelves for it
>

Wow! How mean. That is just mean. To you and your son.
I cry for you both... I cry, hoping you'll never have to apologize at his
hospital bedside for such meanness. Or worse, apologize to his photograph
because he doesn't talk to you anymore. And yeah, if you find it this easy
to kick his joys off the bookshelf, there are lots of other joys you'll not
have room for either...
I mentioned to Scotty (the Super Cool Boyfriend) that someone wrote of her
hope for her son to outgrow Calvin and Hobbes; he immediately teared up. At
least that mama sounds like she still has room in her life for them, even if
she'd not like them to be there. That is one step closer to a peaceful
partnership with her child.
Find room in your life for your joyful child, including those things that
creat such joy. How can there NOT be room for JOY in someone's life?

~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com

>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 28, 2009, at 3:05 AM, diana jenner wrote:

> Movies helped me understand a Classic Novel - easier and
> better!!

A movie can provide a foundation to build a bigger, fuller picture
from. They can make a classic work more accessible. (They can also
piss you off when they aren't done well ;-)

I doubt I would have read Pride and Prejudice had I not been watching
the 1980's BBC version. (I read only as far as each week's episode
and it was incredibly faithful.) I'm glad there are people who love
period costumes who can do the research and make a book come alive
for me. My imagination could not have adequately filled in the parts
that were too commonplace for Jane Austen to have included.

There are some movies that are better than the novels that inspired
them. (Black Stallion comes to mind. As much as I liked the books as
a kid, the movie is as lyrical as fine literature.) Some writers
actually aren't all that good at detailing their worlds. Their
strength might be dialogue. Or characters. Or plot. And another
artist can take that seed and grow a forest from it.

If someone's imagination runs to character interactions and not
physical appearance, the pictures in a graphic novel (I'm thinking
manga especially here) enhance that imagination since they provide
fuller characters than could be conveyed in words.

The bias against pictures is more about book worship than any
realities about how pictures don't stimulate imagination.

Sandra Dodd has a good collection on Book Worship:

http://SandraDodd.com/bookworship

The moment book worship is mentioned as something people should get
over, it suggests the opposite: to look down on books. It doesn't..
It means bring them back down with all the other wonderful ways to
learn so that people can freely choose what works for them in a
particular situation rather than feeling guilty about using something
inferior to books :-/

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betj

I agree Diana. While my 13 year old DS reads them so does my BF's 20 year old DD and it has made them great friends! I even have a friend who is married to a physicistand they are in their late 20's and not only read them but go to conventions where they dress up as characters! It's great fun and takes imagination to pick and plan a costume.
I love young adult fiction too. And in reading some of my son's books we have great conversations. I also read Shakespeare and enjoy it all.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: diana jenner <hahamommy@...>

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:05:19
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] graphic novels


>
> I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best choice for reading. I
> think they totally squash the imagination. I think "young
> readers" like Harry Potter (yes, i have reread the series 6 times- geek i
> am), Chronicles and tons of others that have yet to make it
> to the big screen totally foster the imagination. they don't show you a
> picture of what something looks like. they DESCRIBE it and you form the
> vision for yourself. it opens up a whole world for you to create your on
> vision based upon descriptions not visuals on a piece of paper that allow no
> further imaginings or to think outside of the described box.
>

I'm what the schools call a voracious reader. By 4th grade, I'd read every
single book in our little school's library. My 5th grade report card even
states "Diana reads too much."
And I couldn't finish a Tolkien book to save my life! I picked up The
Hobbit and LOTR several times; my "stuck in South Dakota" brain could not
grasp what he was trying to describe. Thank the gods for Peter Jackson!! He
saw what I could not and, lucky me, he shared it with the entire world :D
NOW I get it! Movies helped me understand a Classic Novel - easier and
better!!

It's like when babies move from "picture books" to books with "words". Now
> they have just given you more picture books but in a more adult form.
>

Are the daily funnies only for babies then? Tell that to Dick Tracy and
Nancy Worth!
If we actually did a study to see who purchased the most graphic novels
(including comic strip collections, ala Calvin and Hobbes) do you really
think the vast majority of the readers (and lovers) thereof would be those
moving from baby books to chapter books? Because I sure don't! I'd bet
lots and lots of money on those readers being Adults, fully capable of
reading chapter books, should they desire to do so... and yet, they buy the
books with the pictures... ask yourself why?
I don't think I've met a single unschooling parent young enough to have
grown up with graphic novels, certainly not at the state of popularity they
are today. I think every single 40 year old's reading background would be
very different, had we the opportunity at such variety (Oh, I'd'a loved to
have read V for Vendetta as a teenager!)

How about books from popular movies? Star wars? Spiderwick? Even the silly
> quickies like Geronimo stilton (may be to easy for him but the stories can
> be finished in a couple hrs). Encyclopedia brown? They don't have to be
> "classics" or great literary works but I do see why you would want him to
> move away from the graphic to more imagination building books.
>

I don't see why... could you please explain what graphic novels do *not*
have compared to these books.
I can't imagine a watered-down version of Spiderman can compare to the
intelligence of Calvin and Hobbes, let alone Sandman!
So silly is okay, as long as they are no pictures?

my son loves calvin and hobbs-as do i but sorry, there isn't enough room on
> my bookshelves for it
>

Wow! How mean. That is just mean. To you and your son.
I cry for you both... I cry, hoping you'll never have to apologize at his
hospital bedside for such meanness. Or worse, apologize to his photograph
because he doesn't talk to you anymore. And yeah, if you find it this easy
to kick his joys off the bookshelf, there are lots of other joys you'll not
have room for either...
I mentioned to Scotty (the Super Cool Boyfriend) that someone wrote of her
hope for her son to outgrow Calvin and Hobbes; he immediately teared up. At
least that mama sounds like she still has room in her life for them, even if
she'd not like them to be there. That is one step closer to a peaceful
partnership with her child.
Find room in your life for your joyful child, including those things that
creat such joy. How can there NOT be room for JOY in someone's life?

~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com

>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tammy Curry

Graphic novels have been around for a long time. Though only recently have they actually been published in standard book format. Graphic novel as a term is relatively new, however this form of story telling, political commentary, etc has been around for longer than any of us have been alive. :)

Anyone out there remember the 60's and the undergrounds? I found my dad's stash many many years ago, oh my what a read those were. I found them right next to his collection of Playboy. My mom had a cow when she caught me reading any of them. My dad told me that Playboy was for guys only, so I had an older friend buy me copies of Playgirl. But the underground comics were fascinating. By current standards they would be considered graphic novels.

Some links to check out about Graphic Novels, that are a classic part of American literary history :

http://www.graphicnovels.brodart.com/history.htm
http://www.ipl.org/div/procrast/graphicnovels/gnsHistBasics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_novel (I am not the biggest of fan of Wikipedia but they do sometimes have excellent information)


I feel that anything that captures the interest of a child's mind and lends itself to their creativity is worth allowing them to explore. My daughter has created artwork, which I need to scan so we can keep it forever, based on graphic novels she has read, anime movies and shows she has seen. Stan Lee has been for years and will continue to be a hero to worship in our house. Hayao Miyazaki is another hero.

Not all books were created equal, some are better than others, but that is completely subjective to the person reading it. A friend of mine loves Steinbeck, personally I could live without his novels. Though I do see the underlying messages he tries to pass on to his readers. On the other hand the Bobbsey Twins by Lilain Garis hold a special place in my heart. As do so many others. My teacher in 4th grade was flabbergasted when I chose to read Gone with the Wind as my civil war era novel for my book report. She had been brought up to think of it as smut. I was so proud of my mom standing there telling her that it was on the list of classics for historical novels. Granted my grandmother had a similar attitude as my 4th grade teacher but they were of the same generation.

Personally if a child picks up a book to read and it holds their interest, let them. What is the old saying, "A picture is worth 1000 words"? Think about how often a piece of art work has inspired you, the feelings it has brought to the surface. How is that any different than reading a graphic novel. Words are wonderful, I live in my own world that I have created with words and art. The two mediums of creativity go beautifully together, but they also can stand very well on their own.

Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jet Lakey

I am glad to see there are so many strong opinions! Thanks to those who kept to the non personal issue that this was really about. Who shared their thoughts and why they love this style of art.



I do think it's a shame that many of you honed in on a few of my statements and ignored the rest. there are some comments need to be addressed:



�Because when you "hate" something your child loves, it hurts them.
Hurting children is not the goal of unschooling. �



Whoever said my son loves these? Whoever said I was withholding them from him? I simply said that they I don�t think they are appropriate reading for a young child. I never said I shared those dislikes to my son. And believe me there are things I can�t stand but he would never know and I still do them with him.



�I'd bet lots and lots of money on those readers being Adults� exactly. Not young children.



�I can point Betsie to many webpages that will support her "right" to quash whatever joy her child finds. I hope deeply that Betsie, and those like her, never ever find that support within the unschooling community.�



WOW. How do you really feel about it? Direct your hostility off of Betsie..she simply asked some questions for support.



�Life is too short to say it's okay to rob your child of joy.�



It seems that most responses were about robbing kids of joy. Taking the things they love away from them. Nowhere was it posted that anyone was doing that. Just because this style of book isn't on someone's personal bookshelves does not mean that it is banned from reading. Just because a parent doesn�t like something doesn�t mean they withhold it from their kids. And if it was, that would be that family�s decision.



�Wow! How mean. That is just mean. To you and your son. I cry for you both... I cry, hoping you'll never have to apologize at his hospital bedside for such meanness. Or worse, apologize to his photograph because he doesn't talk to you anymore. And yeah, if you find it this easy to kick his joys off the bookshelf, there are lots of other joys you'll not
have room for either... �



Personal attacks are not warranted. You do not know me, or what kind of parent I am. You attack me because I do not like a style of books/art and choose not to purchase them for my young son. I never attacked anyone here for their love of these books. I just told what I hated about them. Nor did I say you should not purchase them for your kids. Just because I choose not to purchase them does not mean I judge others for doing so..nor did I say that. What kind of lesson do you teach your kids when you name call others who do not agree with you.? Don�t cry for us. Our house is happy, full of love, full of love for learning and lots of joy..even without graphic novels.

�If it's true that pictures squash the imagination, then stories would too. Shouldn't we be keeping kids from hearing other people's stories for fear of squashing their imaginations? TV and movies -- hey, and plays for that matter too! -- should *kill* imagination since it's
not just stories and pictures, but movement and sound. I'm sure that sounds sarcastic, but they're serious questions.�



Pictures/plays don�t squash the imagination. But I do feel that books such as Bone etc that combine comic graphics with words do. I don�t feel that they allow the power of the written word to develop the scene in a child�s mind (and we were talking about an 11 yr old..not a teenager or adults here). And yes, I limit the type of tv my kid watches because he is young an I am the parent and don�t feel that I should let my 6yr old son watch pg-13 or R movies either. I don�t let him watch History channel when it has war stuff either (Hitler etc). there is a time and place for that and I don�t feel young kids have to be exposed to that right now. They have their whole lives to lose that innocence. I also wouldn�t allow porn in the house because I think it is demeaning to women. Even if he loved it.



�You've pretty effectively dismissed the work every artist that's ever lived if you think the only worthwhile imaginings are created from words. That's not said to elicit an apology. It's said as a spark to thought.�



I never said the only worthwhile imaginings were created from words. Nor do I dismiss the art that goes into graphics novels. I still don�t think they are appropriate for young minds that are still developing their imaginings. When they are older and everything is not as black and white. that�s a whole new story..and discussion. Seems everyone wants to argue the virtue of these things from an adult (and I feel most teenagers have reached the point of adulthood long before 18) standpoint when it was really about an 11 yr old boy.



BTW-I come from a long line of Artists. Writers. Hollywood screenplay writers. Heck, most of my siblings, my parents are involved in the industry in some way or another. You�ve seen their shows, their commercials, you�ve seen them on tv heard their music (all the way back to the dina shore show). Maybe even been in one of their art galleries in CA. Just because I don�t like a style of writing/art doesn�t mean I dismiss all art<G>.



I will say this. My son can give you a tour of almost every Smithsonian museum here in dc (except the ones he doesn�t like). He can probably out talk most adults on Lievens or Caldor. He can recognize a piece of Stickley for its lines. He�s seen more cultures and countries than any other kid I know his age (well, except for one of my friends who�s been to 1 more country than us)LOL.



This was about a discussion on the warrants of a type of media-not on the type of parents we are. so please refrain from the name calling and judgments and personal attacks because I don�t buy him graphic novels/books like bone, captain underpants whatever












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

> Not all books were created equal, some are better than others, but that is
> completely subjective to the person reading it. A friend of mine loves
> Steinbeck, personally I could live without his novels. Though I do see the
> underlying messages he tries to pass on to his readers. On the other hand
> the Bobbsey Twins by Lilain Garis hold a special place in my heart. As do so
> many others. My teacher in 4th grade was flabbergasted when I chose to read
> Gone with the Wind as my civil war era novel for my book report. She had
> been brought up to think of it as smut. I was so proud of my mom standing
> there telling her that it was on the list of classics for historical novels.
> Granted my grandmother had a similar attitude as my 4th grade teacher but
> they were of the same generation.
>

I remember reading Catcher in the Rye -- not because I was in any way
interested, simply because there was library scuttle-butt surrounding it's
existence :) Not being an angst-filled person at the point, certainly not
to the level of the main character, I found the book to be a silly vehicle
for the f-bomb!

I missed the course where To Kill a Mockingbird was required, lucky me! I
picked it up as a 20 year old, working in the school district -- WOW! What a
powerful book! Now, at 40, I just listened to it for the first time (read
by a wonderful southern belle voice) and so many things pop out at me,
different things than when I read it first 20 years ago (Scout and Jem were
the first generation to go to school, Scout's teachers upsetedness over
Scout's knowledge before school, etc).
I received Gone with the Wind for my 25th birthday (same year the 25th
edition was published) from a friend who was delighted I'd never read it!
We had a movie party after I finished reading it... I had never been so
disappointed with a novel's adaptation! Beautiful movie, not nearly as
amazing as the book. Which led to an interest in Harry Turtledove's
alternate histories, when offered "Guns of the South" a few years ago.

Didn't read Where the Red Fern Grows until I was 24, Mitch gave me a copy on
our first date -- it was love <3 Now, I've offered it to Hayden, not only an
amazing book with a great story I know he'll enjoy, also a historical part
of his parents' relationship.

Personally if a child picks up a book to read and it holds their interest,
> let them. What is the old saying, "A picture is worth 1000 words"? Think
> about how often a piece of art work has inspired you, the feelings it has
> brought to the surface. How is that any different than reading a graphic
> novel. Words are wonderful, I live in my own world that I have created with
> words and art. The two mediums of creativity go beautifully together, but
> they also can stand very well on their own.
>

My opinion on writings is: if someone took the time to write it, it's
probably worth reading for *someone* -- sometimes that someone is me,
sometimes it's someone I can refer, sometimes it's someone I can only
imagine existing ;)
I love that unschooling truly uncovers the hidden roads to joy that school
has spent decades paving over ;)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com

>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

> >Â> > > I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best
choice for reading. I think they totally squash the imagination.
*******************************

I used to believe that, until I actually observed the ways my kids
naturally expand on any source material at all. If anything, my dd is
more likely to expand on material that's full of images than text -
movies and shows and picture books and graphic novels are more
inspiring to her than solid blocks of text.

>> they don't show youÂ
> > > a picture of what something looks like. they DESCRIBE it and
you formÂ
> > > the vision for yourself. it opens up a whole world for you to
createÂ
> > > your on vision based upon descriptions not visuals on a piece
ofÂ
> > > paper that allow no further imaginings or to think outside of
theÂ
> > > described box.
*************************

That's what I used to think too! But the more I watched my kids the
more I realized that I was just repeating the words others had said
to me over and over. *My* imagination had been squashed by words -
those very words above, that reduced images to something lesser,
something static and empty compared to text. My kids don't fit the
box made by those words. They see worlds within images - they create
worlds with images. They are free to alter what they see, to
reimagine it in their own ways, because They don't believe that they
can't, shouldn't change it.


> > > It's something we do as an intimate bonding. we all curl up atÂ
> > > different points and read to each other. the others get the
benefitÂ
> > > of closing their eyes and having the story unfold to them.

Its a pretty picture. I used to wish for it. My dd, however, doesn't
like to be read to. She puts up with it, now and then, but not for
long. She wants imagery - she craves it. Description bores her. We've
sat in bed and looked at anatomy books, art history books, National
Geographics, anything with lots and lots of pictures, but about the
only thing she wants to *read* together are comics - so graphic
novels are a natural extension for her.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Deb

> > > I hate graphic books. I don't think they are the best choice for 
> > > reading. I think they totally squash the imagination.
Have you really paid attention to the detail involved and the level of
non-verbal attention that needs to be paid to each image? The reader
needs to be able to look at a series of images and draw conclusions
based on that without a whole lot of words - that's NOT easy. They are
all about imagination. Personally, I have a hard time reading graphic
novels simply because I *expect* to be given the descriptive
information in words. DS can draw so much more out of a few panels than
I can simply because he looks at the gestalt, the sum of the images and
the words.

--Deb

Ren Allen

~~I will say this. My son can give you a tour of almost every
Smithsonian museum here in dc (except the ones he doesn't like). He
can probably out talk most adults on Lievens or Caldor. He can
recognize a piece of Stickley for its lines.~~


This to me reeks of intellectual snobbery. One kind of art is superior
because it has been deemed "fine" or "high" art. Graphic novels are
"low" art right?

Everyone's imaginations and passions are fired by different things.
One is not better than another, just different. If your child could
recite Calvin and Hobbes or recognize Neil Gaiman's work, that would
be no better or worse than the artists he has learned above.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

diana jenner

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...> wrote:

>
> I am glad to see there are so many strong opinions! Thanks to those who
> kept to the non personal issue that this was really about. Who shared their
> thoughts and why they love this style of art.


Dealing with children is personal business -- we're all people! Taking time
out of our day to talk about our personal lives, pretty dang personal.


>
> I do think it's a shame that many of you honed in on a few of my statements
> and ignored the rest. there are some comments need to be addressed:
>
>
>
> �Because when you "hate" something your child loves, it hurts them.
> Hurting children is not the goal of unschooling. �
>
>
>
> Whoever said my son loves these? Whoever said I was withholding them from
> him? I simply said that they I don�t think they are appropriate reading for
> a young child. I never said I shared those dislikes to my son. And believe
> me there are things I can�t stand but he would never know and I still do
> them with him.


then perhaps this comment wasn't a personal response to your situation; I'd
imagine there are lots of folks reading for whom this may have rang true and
they've just not commented the impact it's had on their lives.



>
> �I'd bet lots and lots of money on those readers being Adults� exactly. Not
> young children.


This was in direct response to a comment about babies needing pictures and
growing out of picture books being a natural stage of development. It's
not. Hence, the above comment.


>
> �I can point Betsie to many webpages that will support her "right" to quash
> whatever joy her child finds. I hope deeply that Betsie, and those like her,
> never ever find that support within the unschooling community.�
>
>
>
> WOW. How do you really feel about it? Direct your hostility off of
> Betsie..she simply asked some questions for support.



Yeah, I'm not one to support meanness to kids. I'm not one to quietly
support procrastination of niceness. (and psssst that wasn't directed at
Betsie, it was in response to someone seeking support *for Betsie* - nothing
personal B, just used your name!!)
Did you read the part where my daughter only lived 9.5 years? Do ya think I
had time for people to tell me it was okay to figure out this relationship
thing on whatever schedule worked for *me*?? I didn't!! I am eternally
grateful that someone had the courage to stand up and say - No, diana, that
sucks, there is a better, happier, healthier way to be in relationship with
your kids. It hurt. A lot. AND it required and still requires A LOT of work
on my part, to constantly remember that *this* is the day that counts, every
single action RIGHT NOW counts. I'm certainly the last one here to say I've
got it all right and I'm completely done -- there's work and by golly I'm
here because my kid's important enough to me for this internal stuff to

And a question of clarification to the list owners: Is this a support list
or a discussion list?
Huge difference and if I am wrong in my actions as though this is a
discussion list, then I am sincerely sorry!



>
> �Life is too short to say it's okay to rob your child of joy.�
>
>
>
> It seems that most responses were about robbing kids of joy. Taking the
> things they love away from them. Nowhere was it posted that anyone was doing
> that. Just because this style of book isn't on someone's personal
> bookshelves does not mean that it is banned from reading. Just because a
> parent doesn�t like something doesn�t mean they withhold it from their kids.
> And if it was, that would be that family�s decision.


No allowing something in my home that brought me joy would, yeah, rob me of
some serious JOY.
No one said these books weren't on a shelf, it was said there is no room on
the family's bookshelf for those kinds of books.
It's mean to say to someone (especially someone smaller and with less
control over the environment) "what you love can't come into the house." My
boyfriend wouldn't be around very long if he took that attitude with me, nor
would I in reverse.



>
> �Wow! How mean. That is just mean. To you and your son. I cry for you
> both... I cry, hoping you'll never have to apologize at his hospital bedside
> for such meanness. Or worse, apologize to his photograph because he doesn't
> talk to you anymore. And yeah, if you find it this easy to kick his joys off
> the bookshelf, there are lots of other joys you'll not
> have room for either... �
>
>
>
> Personal attacks are not warranted. You do not know me, or what kind of
> parent I am. You attack me because I do not like a style of books/art and
> choose not to purchase them for my young son. I never attacked anyone here
> for their love of these books. I just told what I hated about them. Nor did
> I say you should not purchase them for your kids. Just because I choose not
> to purchase them does not mean I judge others for doing so..nor did I say
> that. What kind of lesson do you teach your kids when you name call others
> who do not agree with you.? Don�t cry for us. Our house is happy, full of
> love, full of love for learning and lots of joy..even without graphic
> novels.



I only know the words that are typed on the screen. If my information is
inaccurate, that responsibility would lie with the author, not the
respondant. The actions described to me were mean. Do you have a better term
for this behavior among adults? Use that same term between humans,
regardless of age & see if your perspective changes, just a bit.
I don't call people bad parents and I certainly would not here! (didn't even
call the parent mean, I called the actions mean, they are)
The inspiration I'd like people to come away with after reading my words:
Holy crap! I better hurry up and be nice to my kids!! They might not be
here, I might not be here -- All we have is NOW!

Maybe today, after reading these words, someone out there may find
incredible JOY with their kid and the heretofore unexplored world of Capitan
Underpants (thanks for the reminder, I gotta get those out again!)

~diana :)
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 28, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Jet Lakey wrote:

> I do think it's a shame that many of you honed in on a few of my
> statements and ignored the rest.

If an idea isn't held up for examination, then it's probably an
indication it's helpful for unschooling :-)

The list is for discussing ideas that will help unschooling flow for
families. It is not a support list for supporting where people are.
(There are other lists for that.) This list is specifically for
helping people change.

From the description: "a place for you to discuss,question, ponder
and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects
our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole
wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling
families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-
think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle!"

>> Because when you "hate" something your child loves, it hurts them.
>> Hurting children is not the goal of unschooling. “
> Whoever said my son loves these?

Ideas -- such as hating something a child likes -- that are put onto
the list are held up to examination. The ideas are no longer tied to
any particular family. They're treated as ideas that either help or
hinder the flow of unschooling.

Whether someone hates or doesn't hate in the privacy of their family,
isn't the issue. No one here has the ability or desire to control
what anyone does in their home. But when they put *an idea* onto the
list that has the power to hinder the unschooling *in someone else's
home* it gets examined to show how it can get in the way of a child's
learning. (We don't have the power to make you stop hating graphic
novels and no one wants to. But we sure do want to help the
unschoolers who've come here to examine their thinking. That's what
the list is for!)

It can be hugely helpful to work at getting over a dislike of even
potential interests. The more we get stumbling blocks out of the way
of their free exploration, the more freely they get to explore and
make their own connection and valuations.

Of course we all have our own likes and dislikes and it's also a
useful topic to discuss how to support an interest that we really
can't get into too! It's valuable for kids to see us supporting their
interests and trying to understand. It's also valuable for kids to
see how we're all different people with different tastes. They will
appreciate sincere effort to try out something they love. They'll
understand when we can honestly say it's not really our thing.

> You attack me because I do not like a style of books/art

It helps hugely on this type of list -- discussion list as opposed to
a support list -- that once an idea is released to disengage from it.
The discussion isn't about you. The discussion is about the idea.

Supporting another's dislike of an interest a child enjoys will not
help her unschool. It will hold her back.

> and choose not to purchase them for my young son.

What you choose to do with you money is up to you. You've posted an
idea -- choosing not to buy something for a child based on the
mother's likes -- that will get in the way of children's free
exploration. It's a hindrance. A roadblock. The more we can get
ourselves out of the way and make the learning about them, the
smoother the flow.

And *how* to get out of the way, how to get by our prejudices is a
great topic to discuss if someone wants to bring that up! Knowing
it's a good idea to get over prejudices is just the first step.

> But I do feel that books such as Bone etc that combine comic
> graphics with words do.

You feel, but where's the evidence? What are you basing that on?

This list is for critical examination of ideas and practices.
Unexamined ideas will get examined! Unquestioned feelings will get
questioned.

Plays are visuals combined with words. Why wouldn't the effect be the
same? That's not asked in a snarky way. It's a real question. It's
one of the ways theories are tested to see if they ring true. If
static pictures and words don't "allow the power of the written word
to develop the scene" then it would follow that plays would hamper it
even more since they include sound and movement. (And sometimes even
smells!)

> I don’t feel that they allow the power of the written word to
> develop the scene in a child’s mind (and we were talking about an
> 11 yr old..not a teenager or adults here).

Just because it sounds like it should make sense, what evidence do
you have that it's actually so?

My daughter has been immersed in comics from 7ish to her current 17.
She's written 5 novels (during National Novel Writing Month), has a
comic that's been ongoing for 10 years, has gone through *cartons* of
paper with drawings and writings. She's one piece of data to the
contrary. (And I'm sure there's more.) Where's the unschooling data
that supports your theory?

My mother in law believed that coloring books hampered kids' artistic
ability. She thought they should be drawing their own pictures, not
coloring someone else's. That make sense. And yet my sister, my
daughter and I all used coloring books and we're all artistic. None
of her 4 kids are.

No, coloring books didn't make us artistic ;-) But they didn't get in
the way of it either. They were a way of playing with color without
worrying about form. Sometimes ideas that seem to make sense don't
play out in real life. Our minds are *way* more complex than we give
them credit for.

> I still don’t think they are appropriate for young minds that are
> still developing their imaginings.

Little kids do have fantastic imaginations. They can combine bits and
pieces in ways adults never would.

But they also don't have a head full of images to build from. While
it's really cool to see the wild things kids can come up with when
all they have are sticks and stone to play with, that doesn't mean
their imaginations are more free flowing than a child who loves
playing with a huge collection of plastic dinosaurs. Just because the
imaginative play is more apparent to use with the sticks and stones
doesn't mean it actually is. (And based on the results of unschooled
kids who retain their imaginations with lots of fodder, there isn't
evidence to that supports that sticks and stones are better.)

Would giving them more images combined with words stop them from
making the wild combinations they do? Then why wouldn't picture books
interfere? Why wouldn't plays and puppet shows interfere? (Cartoons,
movies and TV too, but I'm trying to avoid the side issue of people's
prejudice against the quality.) While I can see how someone might
come up with that theory, it doesn't seem to hold up to thought, let
alone real life creative unschoolers whose media aren't narrowed by
parents who subscribe to that theory.

> Seems everyone wants to argue the virtue of these things from an
> adult (and I feel most teenagers have reached the point of
> adulthood long before 18) standpoint when it was really about an 11
> yr old boy.

11 is a fairly typical age to be getting into graphic novels. That's
probably the age my daughter and I read through all the Calvin and
Hobbes. Maybe 13 when manga really took off with more affordable
editions and she got into that.

> And yes, I limit the type of tv my kid watches because he is young
> an I am the parent and don’t feel that I should let my 6yr old son
> watch pg-13 or R movies either.

That's a whole 'nother topic.

If anyone's nodding their head in agreement, try reading here and
then come back with your concerns:

http://sandradodd.com/tv
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ (down the left side near the bottom)

> I limit ... because he is young an I am the parent


Most people imagine when unschoolers say "no limits" that they mean
stand back and don't care. We care deeply. We *help* them explore.
Instead of limiting, we help them find the things they like and avoid
the things they don't like. Rather than protecting them, we empower
them so they can find ways to be more powerful than media so it
doesn't have power over them.

That's a surface answer, but obviously the topic is huge and takes an
enormous amount of time to discuss. (Which is why it's helpful to
have places to send people so they can have new concerns answered
rather than recovering the same territory.)

> don’t feel that I should let my 6yr old son watch pg-13 or R movies
> either

Does he want to watch R movies?

It seems so obvious that we should keep little kids away from R
movies, but how many little kids want to see them??? Sometimes
they'll be drawn to a picture on a box or an image they've seen. But
that doesn't mean they have a full understanding of what they're
asking to see! So we help them understand. When they know that we're
not being a roadblock to what they want, when they trust we're trying
to help them find what they enjoy, then they will take our thoughts
as information for decision making. If they decide they want to see
it, we can help them through it in lots of ways.

But hypotheticals aren't good for illuminating unschooling.
Hypothetical children don't have real reasons for something. If
someone has a real 6 year old who wants to see an R rated movie, that
would be much more useful to discuss.

> This was about a discussion on the warrants of a type of media-not
> on the type of parents we are.

No, list members are discussing the merits of ideas that help
unschooling. The initial idea was a prejudice and bias against a
child's interest because she thought the interest interfered with
learning. The resulting discussion was 1) it's helpful to let go of
biases against children's interests, 2) reasons why the medium isn't
as not "real" as she thought to *help* her let go of her bias.

The discussion that branched off of yours continued that but also
touched on the idea of supporting someone else's feelings that will
get in their way of unschooling. The list is for letting go of ideas
that interfere with unschooling. it's a place to get support for
letting go. If someone needs support for *where they are*, there are
lots of lists for that. But the two needs need totally different
approaches that interfere with each other which is why there are
different lists for each.

> My son can give you a tour of almost every Smithsonian museum here
> in dc (except the ones he doesn’t like). He can probably out talk
> most adults on Lievens or Caldor. He can recognize a piece of
> Stickley for its lines. He’s seen more cultures and countries than
> any other kid I know his age (well, except for one of my friends
> who’s been to 1 more country than us

And my daughter can give a detailed analysis of 80's hair metal and
tell people way more than they knew was possible to know about who
played for what band for how long. And if anyone wants to know about
Judas Priest, her current area of focus, she's the go to person :-)

What counts -- as far as supporting them through unschooling --
isn't *what* they're interested in. What's counts is supporting their
interests, regardless if our likes or dislikes about them.

Joyce

Sylvia Toyama

I don't read graphic novels myself -- they're just not my thing -- but my middle son, Andy, does. Only Dragonball or Dragonball Z books (his choice, not my limit) now, but I've offered others in the book store.  My oldest son read comic books a lot when he was young (not a lot of graphic novels then).  I actually prefer both media to traditional kids' books, because I believe so much is gained when most of one's reading is conversational.  As a result, one reads with nuance,  context, and passion, because the writing isn't stilted and/or simplified (something so common in books for beginning readers). 

*****

Pictures/plays don’t squash the imagination. But I do feel that books
such as Bone etc that combine comic graphics with words do. I don’t
feel that they allow the power of the written word to develop the scene
in a child’s mind (and we were talking about an 11 yr old..not a
teenager or adults here)

*****
Not everyone who reads is able to develolp a scene in their mind. I've read voraciously since I was 4 -- all the fiction, and later non-fiction, I could get my hands on.  I often choose to skim over the long descriptions of scenery and locale, and get on what's happening in the story.  For me, it's about interaction of characters and what happens next, because I'm not one who can visualize in my mind's eye.  When I recall memories of my own life, I don't conjure up faces or pictures, I remember scents and sensations.  I'd be really bad as a witness to a crime, describing how someone else looks.  I recognize people when I see them again, but I can't imagine how they look -- even when I see them all the time.  I'd be hard-pressed to describe how my own kids look -- but I can describe in detail how they smell.

Sylvia

 
family blog my blog
photo blog          




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

~~Pictures/plays don't squash the imagination. But I do feel that
books such as Bone etc that combine comic graphics with words do. I
don't feel that they allow the power of the written word to develop
the scene in a child's mind (and we were talking about an 11 yr
old..not a teenager or adults here).~~

BONE?! We *love* the Bone books!! We were exploring at the library
when Evan was... 8, I think. He saw the first Bone book on the shelf,
asked if we could check it out. I flipped through it, saw there was
nothing in there we couldn't handle together, and brought it home.

That *one* chance meeting of my son and the work of Jeff Smith opened
up WORLDS, to not just Evan, but our whole family. We had never read
anything quite like it, and in exploring the world of Bone, we found
SO many other things that sparked our lives for quite a while. Still!
Almost nine years later.

Does Bone allow "the power of the written word to develop the scene in
the child's mind"? Not directly. There are pictures. But is that the
ONLY valuable way to allow the imagination to expand? Hell, no. The
written word is ONE way, and it sounds like you cherish that way.
That's cool! But disallowing *other* ways because you value the
written word above all others (in books, anyway), doesn't allow the
fullness of the world into your lives.

When I read these books, I'm not *only* seeing the picture on the
page; I'm imagining what's happening elsewhere in the story. When I
think of Bone, I think of a rich, rich world, with intrigue and
mystery and laughter. I do NOT just see the printed picture; neither
do children. I would wager the world beyond the page that they imagine
is MORE rich and mysterious than what I could conjure.

I am ACHING that someone wouldn't allow Bone to take up bookshelf
space. That world of Boneville and the Valley, with Thorn and Grandma
Ben and The Red Dragon lives within us, still; it is a deeply
cherished experience from Evan's early unschooling days. I smile every
time I think of Fone, Phoney and Smiley Bone. And Ted! And Bartleby!
That one would withhold that world from their child because of a
prejudice against graphic novels is SAD. I can personally attest that
even at 8, Evan's imagination was NOT stilted, quashed, crushed,
extinguished or repressed by welcoming this art into our home. Rather,
it GREW, it expanded, joyfully. SO many tangents, all stemming from
that glance on the library bookshelf. What a gift I would have
withheld from my child.

~~Whoever said my son loves these? Whoever said I was withholding them
from him?~~

You did. "I hate graphic books. <snip> You don't have to buy him the
"comic book types" either. <snip> my son loves calvin and hobbs-as
do i but sorry, there isn't enough room on my bookshelves for it." I
hope you can see how I (and several others) got the impression you
were withholding these books.

Caren

Jet Lakey

"You did. "I hate graphic books. <snip> You don't have to buy him the
"comic book types" either. <snip> my son loves calvin and hobbs-as
do i but sorry, there isn't enough room on my bookshelves for it." I
hope you can see how I (and several others) got the impression you
were withholding these books."



ok i see this..i should've added that he's more than welcome to explore them at the library and bookstores (which we spend about 6 hrs a week at..at least) i should also have mentioned that he has his own money and if he wanted to purchase them himself he's more than welcome too (he's made the choice to buy legos/dvd's instead). We try not to buy too many books now because we prefer to use the library..and our bookshelves are seriously full. I can't tell you when the last time i bought myself a book but i could tell you the last time i bought my son one!<G> I guess as parents we tend to indulge our kids more than ourselves.LOL



I forget who said this wasn't personal..but it was personal when one of the posters said specifically that I was mean and I would someday regret my meanness..all for not purchasing (or bringing out of the box) calvin and hobbs. And please do not call my son an "intellectual snob" because he loves different types of art and always wants to go to the museums. He has his favorites and I am not going to tell him which ones to go to. BTW-all our museums are free. My pointing out his varied art likes (most people could care less about furniture!) and my upbringing in a mixed art family was simply to show that all art is recognized. And no, just because someone doesn't like a type of art doesn't mean the genius in it isn't recognized. You can recognize the genius in art and still not like it..hence so many styles of art thank goodness.





Anywhos. I really appreciate everyone's input on the subject and especially the links to all the info about graphic novels. And everyones favorite ones and why. And yes, i will actually look at them<G> And maybe my intellectually snobbish family might even crack open the boxes with the calvin and hobbs in them (we own almost every single one of them-when my son first looked at them he became unbearable in his behaviour for several months hence the boxes-but that is a whole other topic)



One last thing since someone posted this..and I would be happy to have it as another subject-thread-..my 6yr old does want to watch some r movies (and lots of pg-13's)-he's not hypothetical<BWG> So where do you draw the line? R movies? Porn? pg 13? Graphic novels? Isn't it the parents decision to try to figure out what is best for their kids..even if others let their kids do something you wouldn't and visa versa? And I am not being sarcastic.


Jet Lakey

-live simply so others may simply live-






To: [email protected]
From: carenkh@...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:36:20 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: graphic novels





~~Pictures/plays don't squash the imagination. But I do feel that
books such as Bone etc that combine comic graphics with words do. I
don't feel that they allow the power of the written word to develop
the scene in a child's mind (and we were talking about an 11 yr
old..not a teenager or adults here).~~

BONE?! We *love* the Bone books!! We were exploring at the library
when Evan was... 8, I think. He saw the first Bone book on the shelf,
asked if we could check it out. I flipped through it, saw there was
nothing in there we couldn't handle together, and brought it home.

That *one* chance meeting of my son and the work of Jeff Smith opened
up WORLDS, to not just Evan, but our whole family. We had never read
anything quite like it, and in exploring the world of Bone, we found
SO many other things that sparked our lives for quite a while. Still!
Almost nine years later.

Does Bone allow "the power of the written word to develop the scene in
the child's mind"? Not directly. There are pictures. But is that the
ONLY valuable way to allow the imagination to expand? Hell, no. The
written word is ONE way, and it sounds like you cherish that way.
That's cool! But disallowing *other* ways because you value the
written word above all others (in books, anyway), doesn't allow the
fullness of the world into your lives.

When I read these books, I'm not *only* seeing the picture on the
page; I'm imagining what's happening elsewhere in the story. When I
think of Bone, I think of a rich, rich world, with intrigue and
mystery and laughter. I do NOT just see the printed picture; neither
do children. I would wager the world beyond the page that they imagine
is MORE rich and mysterious than what I could conjure.

I am ACHING that someone wouldn't allow Bone to take up bookshelf
space. That world of Boneville and the Valley, with Thorn and Grandma
Ben and The Red Dragon lives within us, still; it is a deeply
cherished experience from Evan's early unschooling days. I smile every
time I think of Fone, Phoney and Smiley Bone. And Ted! And Bartleby!
That one would withhold that world from their child because of a
prejudice against graphic novels is SAD. I can personally attest that
even at 8, Evan's imagination was NOT stilted, quashed, crushed,
extinguished or repressed by welcoming this art into our home. Rather,
it GREW, it expanded, joyfully. SO many tangents, all stemming from
that glance on the library bookshelf. What a gift I would have
withheld from my child.

~~Whoever said my son loves these? Whoever said I was withholding them
from him?~~

You did. "I hate graphic books. <snip> You don't have to buy him the
"comic book types" either. <snip> my son loves calvin and hobbs-as
do i but sorry, there isn't enough room on my bookshelves for it." I
hope you can see how I (and several others) got the impression you
were withholding these books.

Caren









"
_________________________________________________________________
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Betsie

My son is flattered that he essentially sparked this huge
conversation. I told him people were talking about him all over the
county. He blushed!

I just have to comment on one thing. I think it's okay to let our
children know if we disagree with them about something. Just because
I don't like something and I let my kids know that, doesn't mean that
I am withholding things that they love. Just because I don't like
something and I let them know that, doesn't mean that they can't love
it.

I don't love comic books or graphic novels. The pictures are
distracting to me and it's too busy to be enjoyable for me. I still
read them with him and he knows that I don't like them. It's a great
lesson for him in learning that we do things for other people because
it benefits them, not us. It's also a great lesson in learning that
we can like different things and that we don't have to follow the
crowd. We can do our own thing and it's okay. I don't want my
children thinking that they can only do things if they have my approval.

I think it's a big mistake to hide our feelings from our kids. It
doesn't foster a relationship and it's an insult to their emotional
intelligence.

Bets

cindybablitz

> Seems everyone wants to argue the virtue of these things from an
> adult (and I feel most teenagers have reached the point of
> adulthood long before 18) standpoint when it was really about an 11
> yr old boy.

One of my dearest unschooling mentors coined these line that I quote,
a lot:

"The goal is raising adults, not children. Children need a lot of
time and safe practice to become adults. They are naturally adept at
being children and need no assistance from parents with that.
Besides, the world needs more people who are twenty-year-old adults,
and fewer who are 45 year-old adolescents."

The gist of what's been shared on this thread has been, to my
reading, about honouring the child's leading in support of respecting
his development into adulthood -- including respecting his right to
read *this* over *that*, if *this* is what he prefers. Perhaps it
may be that your son doesn't, as you later infer, love graphic
novels. My three boys, 9, 6 and 4, haven't discovered them yet,
mostly. So I could also say, my boys don't love graphic novels
either. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about loving or
enjoying or preferring any one thing over any other thing. The
unschooling dividing line on the question centers on when our
children *do* discover an interest -- in comics, in painting, in
digging, in filming, in money, ad nauseum -- whether we support them
in pursuing that interest or disallow them from pursuing that
interest ... or, shame them verbally or non-verbally for that
interest. A statement like, "There's no room on my bookshelves for
graphic novels" does read like a spirit of conditional acceptance,
and that's what's elicited the emphatic responses.

Pulling up the shirt sleeves and immersing oneself in a holistic new
philosophy of living is, I understand, a painstaking process.
Exposing oneself to radically new ideas and contexts is rarely an
uneventfully smooth transition. This has been my experience:
unschooling, mindfully loving, unconditionally accepting,
wholeheartedly supporting were so foreign to the highly conditional
indoctrination of my growing up, I've been pained and squeezed to vet
my reactions and mindsets about ideas to a community such as this.
And I've stumbled -- and stumble still -- to fully embrace all the
joy that is promised in a radically unschooled life. And yet. I
pick up my bruised ego, I dust off the roadsmear from my falling
downs, and hug my children, apologize, and chin up to carry on.
Because I believe in this life that hope springs eternal. And I
trust that *this* community, (this community of worldwide
unschoolers) has my back like no other community ever has.

Retreat not, I implore.

Loving,

Cindy

Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/


>
>
>
> BTW-I come from a long line of Artists. Writers. Hollywood
screenplay writers. Heck, most of my siblings, my parents are
involved in the industry in some way or another. You've seen their
shows, their commercials, you've seen them on tv heard their music
(all the way back to the dina shore show). Maybe even been in one of
their art galleries in CA. Just because I don't like a style of
writing/art doesn't mean I dismiss all art<G>.
>
>
>
> I will say this. My son can give you a tour of almost every
Smithsonian museum here in dc (except the ones he doesn't like). He
can probably out talk most adults on Lievens or Caldor. He can
recognize a piece of Stickley for its lines. He's seen more cultures
and countries than any other kid I know his age (well, except for one
of my friends who's been to 1 more country than us)LOL.
>
>
>
> This was about a discussion on the warrants of a type of media-not
on the type of parents we are. so please refrain from the name
calling and judgments and personal attacks because I don`t buy him
graphic novels/books like bone, captain underpants whatever
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite
groups to meet.
> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 2, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Jet Lakey wrote:

> One last thing since someone posted this..and I would be happy to
> have it as another subject-thread-..my 6yr old does want to watch
> some r movies (and lots of pg-13's)-he's not hypothetical<BWG> So
> where do you draw the line? R movies? Porn? pg 13? Graphic novels?
> Isn't it the parents decision to try to figure out what is best for
> their kids..even if others let their kids do something you wouldn't
> and visa versa? And I am not being sarcastic.

You draw the line at what he doesn't want to watch! Basically the
only thing R rated movies have in common is an R on the box. ;-)

What does he want to watch? What are your concerns about them.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Krisula Moyer

Just a thought or two. There is an idea that sometimes surfaces in
these threads (graphic novels/ reading etc) that graphic novel reading
is a "stage" that a kid gets through before embracing other forms of
literature. I know many of our unschooled kids have shown that that
is not the case. It can be, but I think they (GNs) appeal to readers
in ways unique to the genre.

Trayton is a huge Calvin and Hobbes fan (as is his dad) and he loves
graphic novels. He just finished Watchmen and loved it. There was
an age for him, maybe around 9 or 10 where he couldn't get enough
Calvin and Hobbes. We took the entire collection out of the Library
many many times and bought the anniversary collection when that came
out but he tells me now (he's standing here with me) that he didn't
get into the more serious graphic novels until he was a bit older. He
loved several Japanese series especially Death Note.

The thing is, he was an early reader. He was reading novels and
science books and magazines and newspaper articles well before he
discovered comic books. They flowed in and out together and seemed to
fill different needs at different times. If you knew him at 10 you
might have thought he wasn't much of a reader because he was so into
his comics but at least for him, one thing had nothing to do with the
other.

I am certain that if I discouraged his love of comics instead of
embracing it with trips to the library and the comic store and Anime
Expo and and and. He would not have then embraced novels or whatever
people think is better. It would have merely been a taking away.
there would have been less for him to love and enjoy and learn from
not more. Not to mention the joy I would have missed out on by doing
these things with him.

Joyce said >>> And *how* to get out of the way, how to get by our
prejudices is a
great topic to discuss if someone wants to bring that up! Knowing
it's a good idea to get over prejudices is just the first step.<<<

As you can probably tell from this post comics wasn't one of my
prejudices. But thanks to frank discussions on these lists and from
unschoolers in our lives here, I have uncovered many of my own
prejudices that have lurked where I didn't recognize them. It really
is hard sometimes to see the roadblocks we put up because if they were
clear to us we wouldn't put them there. That is what is valuable
about these discussions. It helps so much to see others working
through these issues and hear the experienced families share their
distilled knowledge. Not taking everyone's posts personally is
essential to the process and was, in the early days something I had to
get past before I could begin learning on lists.

Krisula

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...>
wrote:
>> Pictures/plays don't squash the imagination. But I do feel that
books such as Bone etc that combine comic graphics with words do. I
don't feel that they allow the power of the written word to develop
the scene in a child's mind (and we were talking about an 11 yr
old..not a teenager or adults here).
***********************************

Its helpful to consider *why* you think this - what's your source,
where's your evidence? Especially because this is exactly the sort of
truism that's repeated to the point that "everyone knows" it - but
all everyone really knows is its what everyone says.

Do you know about the Theory of Multiple Intelligences?
http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/mi/dickinson_mi.html

It might be helpful for you in thinking about why the above may not
be true for everyone. There are different ways of processing
information. The written word doesn't have the same power for a
highly kinesthetic individual, or one who is visually inclined, that
it will for a very verbal person.

>> And yes, I limit the type of tv my kid watches because he is young
an I am the parent and don't feel that I should let my 6yr old son
watch pg-13 or R movies either. I don't let him watch History channel
when it has war stuff either (Hitler etc). there is a time and place
for that and I don't feel young kids have to be exposed to that right
now. They have their whole lives to lose that innocence.
************************************

Does he want to watch that stuff? My 7yo used to find most family
drama horrifying. She can't stand to see adults yell at children. To
her, that's violence! She likes action, but not tension. She's very
visual, so she likes a lot of detail and visual interest, but she's
not fond of dialog. Within those parameters, the "content" of the
show doesn't bother her. She's unlike to want to watch shows about
war, unless there are lots of action sequences. She has no interest
in news (too much talking).

Better than limiting is to empower kids to express their own
boundaries - to say "I don't like this, change the channel"! When you
set limits, you make tv and/or certain programming a valuable
commodity - which limits children's ability to articulate what they
Don't like.

>> I also wouldn't allow porn in the house because I think it is
demeaning to women. Even if he loved it.
**************************************

Having created an environment where my kids are free to express what
they don't want to see, my 15yo has made some pretty interesting
decisions of his own, on the subject of porn. Some of it he finds
demeaning - to women and to men, too. He's not interested in that, he
finds it appalling. He wouldn't have been able to develop that kind
of attitude if we'd just said "NO" to porn. He'd likely be grabbing
the easiest to find porn he could get, like most teens - and that's
the stuff that's the most likely to show women in demeaning positions
and situations.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...>
wrote:
>> One last thing since someone posted this..and I would be happy to
have it as another subject-thread-..my 6yr old does want to watch
some r movies (and lots of pg-13's)-he's not hypothetical<BWG> So
where do you draw the line?
******************************

Every child is different - so really, empowering your child to be
able to define and express his own boundaries is far more important
that drawing lines of any kind.

>> Isn't it the parents decision to try to figure out what is best
for their kids..even if others let their kids do something you
wouldn't and visa versa? And I am not being sarcastic.
***************************************

Once you have a sense of what sorts of things your child likes,
doesn't like, finds dull, finds confusing, etc, you are in a better
position to be your child's advocate and advisor. If you're not sure
about a movie, you can read reviews and even pre-view it for him. I
can say to my 7yo dd "there's some drama in this movie" and let her
decide if she thinks its worth the possible upset to watch. If we get
to a scene she's not happy with, we can decide what to do then - skip
the scene, turn the volume down, leave the room until the scene is
over, turn it off entirely. Those are all on the table all the time.

The catch to all of this is that if you've been limiting what your
child is "allowed" to watch, it makes those things that haven't been
allowed more appealing. His trust in your judgement will be impaired
for awhile as a result, and he may "want" to see movies that he
really doesn't. How to handle that? With great compassion. Be
prepared to stop in the middle, to talk about your own feelings, to
be a friendly shoulder if he miscalculates what he's ready to watch.
Its much much better for you to Be that friendly shoulder than for
him to learn to stuff his feelings down so that he can "prove" he's
old enough, ready enough, to satisify your conditions.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Jet Lakey

Meredith: thanks for all your thought provoking words!



"Its helpful to consider *why* you think this - what's your source,
where's your evidence?"



I can honestly say i have NEVER discussed graphic novels with anyone. My friends teenages read them alot and have been writing their own for sometime now. So i haven't been spoon fed this info. it was just personal feeling and watching how my son and my nephew took to them. my son would read some to me and I would describe (via the words without looking at pics) what i thought the scene looked like. then my son would go off that it couldn't possibly be like that because the picture says its this way or that way. Granted my son also threw a major hissy fit when they down graded pluto and didn't bother to update books on time. we would have a discussion about it then he would go pull the "universe" book off the shelve, look up the part about pluto being a planet and tell me "the book says so". too young to get that the book was outdate..thank goodness for internet!!<G>



and my son will watch anything on discovery and history channel...no matter what it is. He might not like it and alot would give him nightmares. (the killing, starving, dead bodies etc). I usually just tell him he can't watch it because it was made for grown ups and when he's a bit older I will let him watch it. He trusts me on that and doesn't push the issues and he doesn't get put off by it. Not usually a problem because we only watch tv when at hotels/grandparents since we don't have cable/reception. Like your daughter, my son tends to think the mistreatment of children is far worse then a tank blowing up a building! He is just now getting over flashbacks of orphanage life but seeing starving homeless kids makes him feel miserable so i don't allow that.



anyways, thanks again for making me think in a different manner :>;

Jet Lakey

-live simply so others may simply live-






To: [email protected]
From: meredith@...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:05:56 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: graphic novels





--- In [email protected], Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...>
wrote:
>> Pictures/plays don't squash the imagination. But I do feel that
books such as Bone etc that combine comic graphics with words do. I
don't feel that they allow the power of the written word to develop
the scene in a child's mind (and we were talking about an 11 yr
old..not a teenager or adults here).
***********************************

Its helpful to consider *why* you think this - what's your source,
where's your evidence? Especially because this is exactly the sort of
truism that's repeated to the point that "everyone knows" it - but
all everyone really knows is its what everyone says.

Do you know about the Theory of Multiple Intelligences?
http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/mi/dickinson_mi.html

It might be helpful for you in thinking about why the above may not
be true for everyone. There are different ways of processing
information. The written word doesn't have the same power for a
highly kinesthetic individual, or one who is visually inclined, that
it will for a very verbal person.

>> And yes, I limit the type of tv my kid watches because he is young
an I am the parent and don't feel that I should let my 6yr old son
watch pg-13 or R movies either. I don't let him watch History channel
when it has war stuff either (Hitler etc). there is a time and place
for that and I don't feel young kids have to be exposed to that right
now. They have their whole lives to lose that innocence.
************************************

Does he want to watch that stuff? My 7yo used to find most family
drama horrifying. She can't stand to see adults yell at children. To
her, that's violence! She likes action, but not tension. She's very
visual, so she likes a lot of detail and visual interest, but she's
not fond of dialog. Within those parameters, the "content" of the
show doesn't bother her. She's unlike to want to watch shows about
war, unless there are lots of action sequences. She has no interest
in news (too much talking).

Better than limiting is to empower kids to express their own
boundaries - to say "I don't like this, change the channel"! When you
set limits, you make tv and/or certain programming a valuable
commodity - which limits children's ability to articulate what they
Don't like.

>> I also wouldn't allow porn in the house because I think it is
demeaning to women. Even if he loved it.
**************************************

Having created an environment where my kids are free to express what
they don't want to see, my 15yo has made some pretty interesting
decisions of his own, on the subject of porn. Some of it he finds
demeaning - to women and to men, too. He's not interested in that, he
finds it appalling. He wouldn't have been able to develop that kind
of attitude if we'd just said "NO" to porn. He'd likely be grabbing
the easiest to find porn he could get, like most teens - and that's
the stuff that's the most likely to show women in demeaning positions
and situations.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)









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Jet Lakey

i replied under the wrong thread! sorry. luckily at this point he does trust my judgement and he doesn't see it as me with holding stuff (believe me, if he even thinks i am he will lay into me and it's "up for discussion"). My son is extremely outspoken-a good thing. as i said on other thread there are a lot of different circumstances with him. His trust was exceptionally difficult to earn when we first adopted him. He does trust me now to make good decisions for him that he may not be able to make on his own..though he would argue that point that there is no reason he can't just have cake and ice cream every meal for a week-forget the fact any sugar sends him over the roof!



There are some shows that I know would set him back if he were to see them..and i know because of our personal experiences with them. which is why when i tell him "no, i am sorry" when a certain compassionate tone he understands that i am looking out for his best interest. There are very few things that are "off limits" to him (above mentioned reasons) so he knows i am not just saying no to withhold something in a power kind of way. Heck, he even got to help pick where we were going on vacation (i would rather have gone to Russia but he wanted to go to greece..so well greece it is) I think allowing him a large voice in alot of critical decisions is a reason he lets me monitor his watching.

Jet Lakey

-live simply so others may simply live-






To: [email protected]
From: meredith@...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:23:59 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] movies WAS graphic novels





--- In [email protected], Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...>
wrote:
>> One last thing since someone posted this..and I would be happy to
have it as another subject-thread-..my 6yr old does want to watch
some r movies (and lots of pg-13's)-he's not hypothetical<BWG> So
where do you draw the line?
******************************

Every child is different - so really, empowering your child to be
able to define and express his own boundaries is far more important
that drawing lines of any kind.

>> Isn't it the parents decision to try to figure out what is best
for their kids..even if others let their kids do something you
wouldn't and visa versa? And I am not being sarcastic.
***************************************

Once you have a sense of what sorts of things your child likes,
doesn't like, finds dull, finds confusing, etc, you are in a better
position to be your child's advocate and advisor. If you're not sure
about a movie, you can read reviews and even pre-view it for him. I
can say to my 7yo dd "there's some drama in this movie" and let her
decide if she thinks its worth the possible upset to watch. If we get
to a scene she's not happy with, we can decide what to do then - skip
the scene, turn the volume down, leave the room until the scene is
over, turn it off entirely. Those are all on the table all the time.

The catch to all of this is that if you've been limiting what your
child is "allowed" to watch, it makes those things that haven't been
allowed more appealing. His trust in your judgement will be impaired
for awhile as a result, and he may "want" to see movies that he
really doesn't. How to handle that? With great compassion. Be
prepared to stop in the middle, to talk about your own feelings, to
be a friendly shoulder if he miscalculates what he's ready to watch.
Its much much better for you to Be that friendly shoulder than for
him to learn to stuff his feelings down so that he can "prove" he's
old enough, ready enough, to satisify your conditions.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)









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Schuyler

One last thing since someone posted this..and I would be happy to have it as another subject-thread-..my 6yr old does want to watch some r movies (and lots of pg-13's)-he's not hypothetical<BWG> So where do you draw the line? R movies? Porn? pg 13? Graphic novels? Isn't it the parents decision to try to figure out what is best for their kids..even if others let their kids do something you wouldn't and visa versa? And I am not being sarcastic.



Jet Lakey

-------------------

When I was a child my parents took me to see movies that were rated R. I asked my dad about it once and he said that it was because they didn't like the idea of government censorship. They felt as my parents they could decide what was appropriate for me to see. I saw Tommy when I was too young to remember more than the Gypsy Queen and Woody Allen's Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex and was left with a vague, dream quality memory of a giant boob squirting milk at people. It was years before I saw that movie again and was able to source my memory.

I haven't taken that approach with Simon and Linnaea. Because of the wonder of video and now dvd and blu-ray, I don't have to push them beyond their comfort zone with a movie. If they are curious about a movie that I might think is too much for them we can get it and sit together with the remote control in hand and stop it when it gets tense. I could even run through it first and tell them in advance what it is going to happen. We can watch things in the middle of the day with lights on and lots of other things to distract, not in a darkened cinema with a giant screen.

I don't know if I notice if a movie is R-rated that much. I live in the
UK and I think it's always age and not letter. Anyhow, 12 and over or 18
seems more negotiable in my mind. We have movies that are 18 and over, (is that X-rated?). Jeez, Woody Allen's Everything you always wanted to know about sex is 18 and over. Footloose is rated for 15 year olds and older. Hair is the same. Jeez, that really winds me up.

Simon and Linnaea have never liked
scary movies. Gore doesn't appeal. They don't seek out shows with sex
in them, either. They like Austin Powers (which is rated 15 and over, so they couldn't see those in the cinema), they like Jack Black movies, they like Family Guy. Those are the kinds of films that they would want to watch that the age rating would exclude them from.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tamara Griesel

 "Just because I don't like
something and I let them know that, doesn't mean that they can't love
it."
 
 Sounds like me and my eight year old, who would like me to participate in more of his favorite computer games.  "It's not that there's anything wrong with Roblox, honey, or Wing Commander, it's just that all that bobbing around on the screen makes Mom want to barf..."
 
Tamara
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betj

I'm just jealous over the vacation! If you don't want to go I will! LOL. I tried to avoid nudity when my son was young but he had a good grasp on that vampires, etc aren't real so horror movies were allowed. I know they give nightmares to some kids (I was one of them, I wouldn't even watch Goonies). So I think taking it slow is a good plan. My son would lay on couch and fall asleep while I watched Buffy and Angel when he was 2-3. It never seemed to bother him. On the other hand he was about 7 and I had to pick him up from a sleep over because another boy told him there was someone outside.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...>

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 15:42:45
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] movies WAS graphic novels



i replied under the wrong thread! sorry. luckily at this point he does trust my judgement and he doesn't see it as me with holding stuff (believe me, if he even thinks i am he will lay into me and it's "up for discussion"). My son is extremely outspoken-a good thing. as i said on other thread there are a lot of different circumstances with him. His trust was exceptionally difficult to earn when we first adopted him. He does trust me now to make good decisions for him that he may not be able to make on his own..though he would argue that point that there is no reason he can't just have cake and ice cream every meal for a week-forget the fact any sugar sends him over the roof!



There are some shows that I know would set him back if he were to see them..and i know because of our personal experiences with them. which is why when i tell him "no, i am sorry" when a certain compassionate tone he understands that i am looking out for his best interest. There are very few things that are "off limits" to him (above mentioned reasons) so he knows i am not just saying no to withhold something in a power kind of way. Heck, he even got to help pick where we were going on vacation (i would rather have gone to Russia but he wanted to go to greece..so well greece it is) I think allowing him a large voice in alot of critical decisions is a reason he lets me monitor his watching.

Jet Lakey

-live simply so others may simply live-






To: [email protected]
From: meredith@...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:23:59 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] movies WAS graphic novels





--- In [email protected], Jet Lakey <Jetlakey@...>
wrote:
>> One last thing since someone posted this..and I would be happy to
have it as another subject-thread-..my 6yr old does want to watch
some r movies (and lots of pg-13's)-he's not hypothetical<BWG> So
where do you draw the line?
******************************

Every child is different - so really, empowering your child to be
able to define and express his own boundaries is far more important
that drawing lines of any kind.

>> Isn't it the parents decision to try to figure out what is best
for their kids..even if others let their kids do something you
wouldn't and visa versa? And I am not being sarcastic.
***************************************

Once you have a sense of what sorts of things your child likes,
doesn't like, finds dull, finds confusing, etc, you are in a better
position to be your child's advocate and advisor. If you're not sure
about a movie, you can read reviews and even pre-view it for him. I
can say to my 7yo dd "there's some drama in this movie" and let her
decide if she thinks its worth the possible upset to watch. If we get
to a scene she's not happy with, we can decide what to do then - skip
the scene, turn the volume down, leave the room until the scene is
over, turn it off entirely. Those are all on the table all the time.

The catch to all of this is that if you've been limiting what your
child is "allowed" to watch, it makes those things that haven't been
allowed more appealing. His trust in your judgement will be impaired
for awhile as a result, and he may "want" to see movies that he
really doesn't. How to handle that? With great compassion. Be
prepared to stop in the middle, to talk about your own feelings, to
be a friendly shoulder if he miscalculates what he's ready to watch.
Its much much better for you to Be that friendly shoulder than for
him to learn to stuff his feelings down so that he can "prove" he's
old enough, ready enough, to satisify your conditions.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)









_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

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