All or nothing?
xandersmom0529
hi,
I am new to this but was wondering can't we have the best of both worlds?
Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point and
still go with their interests? I have training in Early Childhood
Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
they would be learning at xyz time. He has an interest and I take that
interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
or whatever.
Am I just not getting it?
I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structure
of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME! DS just sees the
end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more). Is that still
unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me. Basically
can't I take from wherever works for us?
Melissa
I am new to this but was wondering can't we have the best of both worlds?
Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point and
still go with their interests? I have training in Early Childhood
Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
they would be learning at xyz time. He has an interest and I take that
interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
or whatever.
Am I just not getting it?
I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structure
of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME! DS just sees the
end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more). Is that still
unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me. Basically
can't I take from wherever works for us?
Melissa
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 25, 2009, at 11:00 PM, xandersmom0529 wrote:
right sounds and words at the right time without charts?
hits someone else's idea of what he should learn, record his own
unique path through the world. :-) You'd be contributing the the body
of knowledge rather than following someone else's.
Kids learn whether someone has charted it out or not. But *schools*
need plans and such because they need to shepherd 20 or 30 kids
through a year of learning all at the same time, otherwise the kids
would be off in 30 different directions. The 30 directions is exactly
what the *kids* need. But *schools* can't function that way.
Here's two things that might help:
Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
determined was useful. They don't record what was learned instead. So
if there are gaps, it looks like lack.
My daughter could say "pachycephalosaurus" before she could say her
own name. It would be a perfectly reasonable question to ask kids to
say their own name. She would have failed. And no reasonable test of
an 18 mo would have asked if she could pronounce pachycephalosaurus.
What it would show is she's lacking when really she was way richer
than any test could ever test for.
way of him exploring his interests, or makes him feel his interests
aren't as good as some other activity or understanding, then that's
something that will interfere.
There is no universal right or wrong. It depends what your goals are.
If your goal is to unschool, the more you can let go of that gets in
the way of learning from life, the smoother unschooling will work.
It's why people often suggest to live life as though school didn't
exist.
various educational ideas: Eclectic homeschooling.
interfere. So it's more important to understand how unschooling
works, what can interfere and what can help and why.
Was there an order of words he should have learned in order to speak?
There is in Spanish class. And look how well that works!
What helps some people let go of the lists of what kids should know
is to look back on lists from several years ago and see how the child
encountered all those just by living life.
through understanding rather than letting him discover it.
That's scary! And yet when you step away from institutional learning,
step away from the school's need to march kids through learning in a
particular order, then you can see how difficult and unnatural that
kind of learning is. It's also not as effective. The problem is that
it tests well because kids are tested on what they've memorized, not
what they understand. It's *really* hard to test for understanding
but understanding is what we need to use it.
child will feel the pressure of needing to learn and the inadequacy
of not knowing as much as mom feels he should. He will feel that life
is being turned into "learning opportunities" when all he wanted was
to enjoy the moment.
On the other hand, people who are passionate about a subject often
can't help sharing their passion. :-) And that can be really cool,
when they're sharing out of love and they hope someone else will love
it too. They don't care if someone doesn't learn. They just care
about sharing the joy.
But some times we just want to experience something for ourselves, to
take in what we care about, to draw our own conclusions, to think our
own thoughts about it. If he feels you have an agenda to get the
knowledge you think is important into him, when will he have time for
his own thoughts? And will he come to value other's thoughts as being
more important than his own? I think that's one of the top 10 damages
of school: kids are afraid that their own conclusions are inferior to
the memorized conclusions of experts.
Maybe this will help. You see him enjoying some physical activity,
and you see the perfect opportunity to point out the physics of the
body. *You* see the important part as the understanding. The *real*
important part is the experience.
I know that doesn't make sense! What he's doing -- mostly
unconsciously -- is building a holistic understanding. He's
observing. He's theorizing. He's testing his theories. He's
reevaluating. He's drawing conclusions. *That's* real, profound
learning. That's how we're hardwired to learn. (It's the way he
learned to speak and see how well that worked!)
What you want to do is paste someone else's understanding over that
process. He's doing real science. You want to pour someone else's
conclusion in.
I have degree in engineering so I did all the science classes.
Someone pointed out that guys were better at mechanical physics than
girls because they'd had informal, real life experience. Boys had
grown up hitting and catching and being the ball. They intuitively
understood how objects in collision moved. So when they were
presented the formal description, they had a lifetime of
understanding already to draw on and they got it. The girls had to
work at developing an understanding. (Obviously, the lines weren't
drawn strictly between the sexes but on the whole it was true since
boys do tend to be more physical.)
The point isn't to make kids reinvent the wheel. We don't need to
hide a lifetime of understanding from them to make them recreate it
all! But the point is to value real learning and real understanding
rather than memorizing someone else understanding. Give him access to
videos and books so that he can play around with someone else's
conclusions when *he's* ready for them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping.When he was learning to speak, how did you know he was learning the
right sounds and words at the right time without charts?
> I like the structureRather than looking at someone else's chart and checking off when he
> of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME!
hits someone else's idea of what he should learn, record his own
unique path through the world. :-) You'd be contributing the the body
of knowledge rather than following someone else's.
Kids learn whether someone has charted it out or not. But *schools*
need plans and such because they need to shepherd 20 or 30 kids
through a year of learning all at the same time, otherwise the kids
would be off in 30 different directions. The 30 directions is exactly
what the *kids* need. But *schools* can't function that way.
Here's two things that might help:
Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
> DS just sees theThe danger of charts is that they record what someone else has
> end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more).
determined was useful. They don't record what was learned instead. So
if there are gaps, it looks like lack.
My daughter could say "pachycephalosaurus" before she could say her
own name. It would be a perfectly reasonable question to ask kids to
say their own name. She would have failed. And no reasonable test of
an 18 mo would have asked if she could pronounce pachycephalosaurus.
What it would show is she's lacking when really she was way richer
than any test could ever test for.
> Is that stillIf you want to unschool, if you're doing something that gets in the
> unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me.
way of him exploring his interests, or makes him feel his interests
aren't as good as some other activity or understanding, then that's
something that will interfere.
There is no universal right or wrong. It depends what your goals are.
If your goal is to unschool, the more you can let go of that gets in
the way of learning from life, the smoother unschooling will work.
It's why people often suggest to live life as though school didn't
exist.
> BasicallyYes, they have a word for cobbling together bits and pieces of
> can't I take from wherever works for us?
various educational ideas: Eclectic homeschooling.
> Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point andWell ... there are actions that help unschooling and actions that
> still go with their interests?
interfere. So it's more important to understand how unschooling
works, what can interfere and what can help and why.
Was there an order of words he should have learned in order to speak?
There is in Spanish class. And look how well that works!
What helps some people let go of the lists of what kids should know
is to look back on lists from several years ago and see how the child
encountered all those just by living life.
> I have training in Early ChildhoodThat would be different than unschooling. You would be leading him
> Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
> I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
> world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
> they would be learning at xyz time.
through understanding rather than letting him discover it.
That's scary! And yet when you step away from institutional learning,
step away from the school's need to march kids through learning in a
particular order, then you can see how difficult and unnatural that
kind of learning is. It's also not as effective. The problem is that
it tests well because kids are tested on what they've memorized, not
what they understand. It's *really* hard to test for understanding
but understanding is what we need to use it.
> He has an interest and I take thatIt depends how it's done. If mom is worried, there is the danger the
> interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
> or whatever.
child will feel the pressure of needing to learn and the inadequacy
of not knowing as much as mom feels he should. He will feel that life
is being turned into "learning opportunities" when all he wanted was
to enjoy the moment.
On the other hand, people who are passionate about a subject often
can't help sharing their passion. :-) And that can be really cool,
when they're sharing out of love and they hope someone else will love
it too. They don't care if someone doesn't learn. They just care
about sharing the joy.
But some times we just want to experience something for ourselves, to
take in what we care about, to draw our own conclusions, to think our
own thoughts about it. If he feels you have an agenda to get the
knowledge you think is important into him, when will he have time for
his own thoughts? And will he come to value other's thoughts as being
more important than his own? I think that's one of the top 10 damages
of school: kids are afraid that their own conclusions are inferior to
the memorized conclusions of experts.
> Am I just not getting it?Nope, not yet ;-)
Maybe this will help. You see him enjoying some physical activity,
and you see the perfect opportunity to point out the physics of the
body. *You* see the important part as the understanding. The *real*
important part is the experience.
I know that doesn't make sense! What he's doing -- mostly
unconsciously -- is building a holistic understanding. He's
observing. He's theorizing. He's testing his theories. He's
reevaluating. He's drawing conclusions. *That's* real, profound
learning. That's how we're hardwired to learn. (It's the way he
learned to speak and see how well that worked!)
What you want to do is paste someone else's understanding over that
process. He's doing real science. You want to pour someone else's
conclusion in.
I have degree in engineering so I did all the science classes.
Someone pointed out that guys were better at mechanical physics than
girls because they'd had informal, real life experience. Boys had
grown up hitting and catching and being the ball. They intuitively
understood how objects in collision moved. So when they were
presented the formal description, they had a lifetime of
understanding already to draw on and they got it. The girls had to
work at developing an understanding. (Obviously, the lines weren't
drawn strictly between the sexes but on the whole it was true since
boys do tend to be more physical.)
The point isn't to make kids reinvent the wheel. We don't need to
hide a lifetime of understanding from them to make them recreate it
all! But the point is to value real learning and real understanding
rather than memorizing someone else understanding. Give him access to
videos and books so that he can play around with someone else's
conclusions when *he's* ready for them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tammy Curry
Melissa,
I am more or less a lurker most days, but the wealth of information found in this group is helping us tremendously. We are in our first year of homeschooling. We have a 10 yr old and a 4 yr old. I do relate to what you feel that if there is no documentation how do we know what they are learning. The thing I am finding helpful with record keeping is blogging. I do not do it daily we just get too busy some days. But typically if we hit a milestone of some kind or the kids find something interesting, etc. We are totally unschooling, my daughter has worksheets that I print out for her but we do not do them everyday, when she feels like it. It is hard to let go of traditional schooling thoughts and ideals. Learning to relax and see that they pull from the world around them daily takes time. But if you feel the need to chart what your daughter is doing I really suggest blogging or some kind of personal journal for you.
One of the things we have done is strewing, well I try to keep things a bit organized and that is just me and something I have to work on is learning that stuff can sit out and around and just be available. We have educational books, games for the computers, we have even subscribed to Britanica Desktop Encyclopedia. My daughter gets into a little bit of everything, every day. We have been having some wild conversations about different things. Her main interests right now are anime, fashion design, cooking and art. The only time I hear now, "Can I go to PS next year?" is when I have gotten into control mode and tried to force learning. When one of the reasons we decided to homeschool is she lost her love of learning, PS just killed it all. I will also mention she is taking Modern Art HIstory Survey right along side me, so she is already auditing a college level art class and loving it and my instructor loves to read her responses to the discussion
questions and has already critiqued some of her studio art projects and loves them.
Our son well he plays all day. Superheroes and kicking bad guy butt are his interests at the moment. That and old black and white cartoons, he just spent the weekend with my Dad (he was visiting us) watching cartoons my dad remembers from when he was a kid. Daddy introduced him to Howdy Doody, Captain Kangaroo, and a ton of other similar shows. Ben 10 is still his top but now he has a wider range of heroes and enjoyment. He comes up with his own stories based in some cartoon but makes them totally his own. His other favorite thing is to stand in front of anything that he can see his reflection and make faces. Then he comes and shows us all the faces he can make, I swear he will be going into stand up comedy when he is older.
The other big thing we have had to adjust to is bed time. What we have been doing is turning the lights down, not off and spending time with the kids either all snuggled together in one room or in their own rooms and everyone relaxes. It has taken quite a bit of time but now the kids ask us if they can go to bed and usually by 10 pm. My daughter goes into her room and finishes up her latest doll dress creation and drifts off to sleep. Our son loves to have Dr. Seuss read to him and then we tell stories about Mr. O'Bear, a family hero my dad created before he could read so he could tell me stories. It is very peaceful and my husband and I love it, we each get special time with the kids one on one which they love as well.
Treat everyday as a new adventure and let your daughter lead you there. When we moved into our new house a month ago there was nothing on the walls. Now they are being covered in art projects. We have a wall covered in white contact paper (ancient trailer with wood paneling so clear didn't work out too well this time) where the kids can draw on the walls. My daughter and I email back and forth all day long from our computers or enjoy a conversation in IM on yahoo. She has a pen pal that is an unschooler and they have interesting conversations, when she remembers to check email or if they happen to get on yahoo at the same time. Granted her pen pal is on the opposite coast from us so sometimes they miss each other. She is writing more now than she ever has before and is asking about grammar and punctuation and all that stuff. I keep my own documentation, I do not use anything developed by South Carolina or anything education curriculum, well not anymore,
I did to begin with but it is such a hassle. I would rather just keep track of our adventure.
Becoming an unschooling family is an adventure and we are enjoying it. For us it isn't happening over night, so many conventions to let go of but each step we make we see our daughter's happiness increase. Our son, well for him it is the way things are and what he will remember. I wish I hadn't ever sent our daughter to public school and had listened to my gut and my heart years ago.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am more or less a lurker most days, but the wealth of information found in this group is helping us tremendously. We are in our first year of homeschooling. We have a 10 yr old and a 4 yr old. I do relate to what you feel that if there is no documentation how do we know what they are learning. The thing I am finding helpful with record keeping is blogging. I do not do it daily we just get too busy some days. But typically if we hit a milestone of some kind or the kids find something interesting, etc. We are totally unschooling, my daughter has worksheets that I print out for her but we do not do them everyday, when she feels like it. It is hard to let go of traditional schooling thoughts and ideals. Learning to relax and see that they pull from the world around them daily takes time. But if you feel the need to chart what your daughter is doing I really suggest blogging or some kind of personal journal for you.
One of the things we have done is strewing, well I try to keep things a bit organized and that is just me and something I have to work on is learning that stuff can sit out and around and just be available. We have educational books, games for the computers, we have even subscribed to Britanica Desktop Encyclopedia. My daughter gets into a little bit of everything, every day. We have been having some wild conversations about different things. Her main interests right now are anime, fashion design, cooking and art. The only time I hear now, "Can I go to PS next year?" is when I have gotten into control mode and tried to force learning. When one of the reasons we decided to homeschool is she lost her love of learning, PS just killed it all. I will also mention she is taking Modern Art HIstory Survey right along side me, so she is already auditing a college level art class and loving it and my instructor loves to read her responses to the discussion
questions and has already critiqued some of her studio art projects and loves them.
Our son well he plays all day. Superheroes and kicking bad guy butt are his interests at the moment. That and old black and white cartoons, he just spent the weekend with my Dad (he was visiting us) watching cartoons my dad remembers from when he was a kid. Daddy introduced him to Howdy Doody, Captain Kangaroo, and a ton of other similar shows. Ben 10 is still his top but now he has a wider range of heroes and enjoyment. He comes up with his own stories based in some cartoon but makes them totally his own. His other favorite thing is to stand in front of anything that he can see his reflection and make faces. Then he comes and shows us all the faces he can make, I swear he will be going into stand up comedy when he is older.
The other big thing we have had to adjust to is bed time. What we have been doing is turning the lights down, not off and spending time with the kids either all snuggled together in one room or in their own rooms and everyone relaxes. It has taken quite a bit of time but now the kids ask us if they can go to bed and usually by 10 pm. My daughter goes into her room and finishes up her latest doll dress creation and drifts off to sleep. Our son loves to have Dr. Seuss read to him and then we tell stories about Mr. O'Bear, a family hero my dad created before he could read so he could tell me stories. It is very peaceful and my husband and I love it, we each get special time with the kids one on one which they love as well.
Treat everyday as a new adventure and let your daughter lead you there. When we moved into our new house a month ago there was nothing on the walls. Now they are being covered in art projects. We have a wall covered in white contact paper (ancient trailer with wood paneling so clear didn't work out too well this time) where the kids can draw on the walls. My daughter and I email back and forth all day long from our computers or enjoy a conversation in IM on yahoo. She has a pen pal that is an unschooler and they have interesting conversations, when she remembers to check email or if they happen to get on yahoo at the same time. Granted her pen pal is on the opposite coast from us so sometimes they miss each other. She is writing more now than she ever has before and is asking about grammar and punctuation and all that stuff. I keep my own documentation, I do not use anything developed by South Carolina or anything education curriculum, well not anymore,
I did to begin with but it is such a hassle. I would rather just keep track of our adventure.
Becoming an unschooling family is an adventure and we are enjoying it. For us it isn't happening over night, so many conventions to let go of but each step we make we see our daughter's happiness increase. Our son, well for him it is the way things are and what he will remember. I wish I hadn't ever sent our daughter to public school and had listened to my gut and my heart years ago.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
> He has an interest and I take that interest and point out, as anexample, the physics of the human body or whatever.
Depends - does HE need/want that information or are you trying to make
it into a 'learning moment'? Are you turning HIS discovery/interest into
YOUR 'teachable moment'? Sure, if you want to present information to him
based on his interests, you can do that - it's called unit studies. But
that's not unschooling. Unschooling CAN look like unit studies when
we're feeding an interest in dinosaurs for months on end but the energy
to it is not me "teaching" but rather my DS' desire to know more about
dinosaurs. When he accelerates and wants more, we find ways to get it.
When he slows down, we slow down. It's kind of like feeding a baby - you
feed them when they express a need for food and stop when they indicate
they are done for now (unless one happens to be an advocate of feeding
by the clock and the ounce measurement - baby needs to eat 6 oz at noon,
no more, no less, no earlier, no later). To paraphrase the theme song
from Cabaret: Life is a giant buffet old chum. Help your kids with the
awkward utensils but let them choose what, when, how much.
Deb R
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "xandersmom0529"
<melissa.mccowan@...> wrote:
possibilities, that's useful information for any parent. It saves
wondering "what's wrong with my child?" when they're doing something
common for the age.
At the same time, there's a risk of panicking yourself when your
child does something wonderful and unique - or more often,
is "behind" in some particular area. A lot of "ahead" and "behind"
and even "atypical" sorts of things even out over time - all the
moreso in an unschooling environment, where the child, parents,
teachers aren't stressing over the matter.
yourself or family and friends, keep a blog! Its a great way to tell
lots of "look at my kid" stories, post a ton of pictures, and feel
good about life. I need to do more of that, now that I mention it ;)
If it helps, think of it as a "portfolio" - but don't just list the
academic stuff. Write about the things that are making your kid
happy - that's where the learning is, anyway. Lots of unschoolers
keep blogs. And lots of unschoolers tell their family stories on the
various lists and fora - there's a Lot of record keeping going on
around here ;) it's just a different format than what you may be used
to.
Planning... what are you planning? How are you planning?
Mo has expressed that she wants to read longer books, but with
pictures, so I researched and ordered some graphic novels. When she
kept saying she wanted to make movies and video games, I researched
and found her a program for that. When she brings me a "rainy day
activity book" and says "that looks like fun, but we don't have..." I
make a list of things to get at the store. That's what a lot of my
planning with Mo looks like - its responsive planning not...
directive (is that the word I want?) She tells me her plans.
With Ray it looks like coordinating schedules - he has a club he
goes to one night a week, he has things to do on weekends, there's a
monthly "drum circle" he likes to attend and a (sort of) weekly jam
session at a friend's house. So planning anything else involving Ray
(bowling, camping, going to the skate park) has to be worked in to
the schedule.
not a bad thing to offer a little "more", but Only if the child is
interested. If not, then offerring the information is an invitation
for him to tune you out. Enough of that and it won't matter how much
you offer - it will all be white noise.
Interests can be enough in and of themselves. Any interest can lead a
child in any direction. The natural human tendency to explore and
discover can take kids anywhere at all - and you Don't have to lead
them. In fact, trying to lead can get in the way of their learning.
When you offer physics, and the child is thinking fluid dynamics,
you've blown it. You've gained ten minutes of interest and lost a
week of passion. You've gained one connection, and lost a million
others in the process.
If it helps, create your own home study program for Yourself! Make
your own learning plan, do your own research and keep your own
records - and notice where it takes you. Did you get where you
thought you would? Does it look the way you expected?
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
<melissa.mccowan@...> wrote:
>> Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point andIf you mean understanding the range of normal developmental
> still go with their interests?
possibilities, that's useful information for any parent. It saves
wondering "what's wrong with my child?" when they're doing something
common for the age.
At the same time, there's a risk of panicking yourself when your
child does something wonderful and unique - or more often,
is "behind" in some particular area. A lot of "ahead" and "behind"
and even "atypical" sorts of things even out over time - all the
moreso in an unschooling environment, where the child, parents,
teachers aren't stressing over the matter.
> I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structureIf you want to keep track of what's going on in your son's life for
> of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME!
yourself or family and friends, keep a blog! Its a great way to tell
lots of "look at my kid" stories, post a ton of pictures, and feel
good about life. I need to do more of that, now that I mention it ;)
If it helps, think of it as a "portfolio" - but don't just list the
academic stuff. Write about the things that are making your kid
happy - that's where the learning is, anyway. Lots of unschoolers
keep blogs. And lots of unschoolers tell their family stories on the
various lists and fora - there's a Lot of record keeping going on
around here ;) it's just a different format than what you may be used
to.
Planning... what are you planning? How are you planning?
Mo has expressed that she wants to read longer books, but with
pictures, so I researched and ordered some graphic novels. When she
kept saying she wanted to make movies and video games, I researched
and found her a program for that. When she brings me a "rainy day
activity book" and says "that looks like fun, but we don't have..." I
make a list of things to get at the store. That's what a lot of my
planning with Mo looks like - its responsive planning not...
directive (is that the word I want?) She tells me her plans.
With Ray it looks like coordinating schedules - he has a club he
goes to one night a week, he has things to do on weekends, there's a
monthly "drum circle" he likes to attend and a (sort of) weekly jam
session at a friend's house. So planning anything else involving Ray
(bowling, camping, going to the skate park) has to be worked in to
the schedule.
>He has an interest and I take thatThis is where the idea of "should learn" can really bog you down. Its
> interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
> or whatever.
not a bad thing to offer a little "more", but Only if the child is
interested. If not, then offerring the information is an invitation
for him to tune you out. Enough of that and it won't matter how much
you offer - it will all be white noise.
Interests can be enough in and of themselves. Any interest can lead a
child in any direction. The natural human tendency to explore and
discover can take kids anywhere at all - and you Don't have to lead
them. In fact, trying to lead can get in the way of their learning.
When you offer physics, and the child is thinking fluid dynamics,
you've blown it. You've gained ten minutes of interest and lost a
week of passion. You've gained one connection, and lost a million
others in the process.
If it helps, create your own home study program for Yourself! Make
your own learning plan, do your own research and keep your own
records - and notice where it takes you. Did you get where you
thought you would? Does it look the way you expected?
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Tamara Griesel
My rule of thumb with Andrew was if he asked a question I'd ask him if he wanted the short answer or the long answer...then we'd pursue it as far as he wanted to.
Tamara
Tamara
--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 12:42 PM
> He has an interest and I take that interest and point out, as an
example, the physics of the human body or whatever.
Depends - does HE need/want that information or are you trying to make
it into a 'learning moment'? Are you turning HIS discovery/interest into
YOUR 'teachable moment'? Sure, if you want to present information to him
based on his interests, you can do that - it's called unit studies. But
that's not unschooling. Unschooling CAN look like unit studies when
we're feeding an interest in dinosaurs for months on end but the energy
to it is not me "teaching" but rather my DS' desire to know more about
dinosaurs. When he accelerates and wants more, we find ways to get it.
When he slows down, we slow down. It's kind of like feeding a baby - you
feed them when they express a need for food and stop when they indicate
they are done for now (unless one happens to be an advocate of feeding
by the clock and the ounce measurement - baby needs to eat 6 oz at noon,
no more, no less, no earlier, no later). To paraphrase the theme song
from Cabaret: Life is a giant buffet old chum. Help your kids with the
awkward utensils but let them choose what, when, how much.
Deb R
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Jet Lakey
you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it! Science projects my son and i do because we like to..not because the system says to..so we take pictures of it (for my son's sake) and i keep a copy of the picture and then write up a paragraph for school system. unschooling isn't a lack of record keeping (i guess it could be) but a lack of dogma. your record keeping is what you make of it..has nothing to do with the learning (unless you make it so). I write up paragraphs about what we did (like places we go, what we talked about etc) but my son doesn't have anything to do with these.
Jet Lakey
-live simply so others may simply live-
To: [email protected]
From: melissa.mccowan@...
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:00:40 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] All or nothing?
hi,
I am new to this but was wondering can't we have the best of both worlds?
Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point and
still go with their interests? I have training in Early Childhood
Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
they would be learning at xyz time. He has an interest and I take that
interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
or whatever.
Am I just not getting it?
I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structure
of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME! DS just sees the
end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more). Is that still
unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me. Basically
can't I take from wherever works for us?
Melissa
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live�: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jet Lakey
-live simply so others may simply live-
To: [email protected]
From: melissa.mccowan@...
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:00:40 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] All or nothing?
hi,
I am new to this but was wondering can't we have the best of both worlds?
Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point and
still go with their interests? I have training in Early Childhood
Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
they would be learning at xyz time. He has an interest and I take that
interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
or whatever.
Am I just not getting it?
I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structure
of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME! DS just sees the
end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more). Is that still
unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me. Basically
can't I take from wherever works for us?
Melissa
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live�: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/26/2009 1:45 PM, Jet Lakey wrote:
educational records of any type. None. Zip. Our state doesn't require them.
-pam
> you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it!Depends on where you live. My kids are 24, 21, and 18 and we kept zero
educational records of any type. None. Zip. Our state doesn't require them.
-pam
Debra Rossing
> you do have to keep some records for the state.Depends on the state - not all states require recordkeeping, so knowing
what is legally required is really important.
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Alfie Kohn has written a lot on education and parenting topics that can be
illiminating for unschooling parents to read although I don't think he takes his
conclusions far enough. :) His essay about this idea of "why not do both" is
well worth reading through. (First two paragraphs below, link follows.)
**Like other people, educators often hold theories about how the world
works, or how one ought to act, that are never named, never checked for accuracy,
never even consciously recognized. One of the most popular of these theories is
a very appealing blend of pragmatism and relativism that might be called "the
more, the merrier." People subscribing to this view tend to dismiss arguments
that a given educational practice is bad news and ought to be replaced by
another. "Why not do both?" they ask. "No reason to throw anything out of your
toolbox. Use everything that works."
But what if something that works to accomplish one goal ends up impeding
another? And what if two very different strategies are inversely related, such
that they work at cross purposes? As it happens, converging evidence from
different educational arenas tends to support exactly these concerns. Particularly
when practices that might be called, for lack of better labels, progressive and
traditional are used at the same time, the latter often has the effect of
undermining the former. **
from Education's Rotten Apples By Alfie Kohn
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
Deborah in IL
**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
just 2 easy steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D66
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
illiminating for unschooling parents to read although I don't think he takes his
conclusions far enough. :) His essay about this idea of "why not do both" is
well worth reading through. (First two paragraphs below, link follows.)
**Like other people, educators often hold theories about how the world
works, or how one ought to act, that are never named, never checked for accuracy,
never even consciously recognized. One of the most popular of these theories is
a very appealing blend of pragmatism and relativism that might be called "the
more, the merrier." People subscribing to this view tend to dismiss arguments
that a given educational practice is bad news and ought to be replaced by
another. "Why not do both?" they ask. "No reason to throw anything out of your
toolbox. Use everything that works."
But what if something that works to accomplish one goal ends up impeding
another? And what if two very different strategies are inversely related, such
that they work at cross purposes? As it happens, converging evidence from
different educational arenas tends to support exactly these concerns. Particularly
when practices that might be called, for lack of better labels, progressive and
traditional are used at the same time, the latter often has the effect of
undermining the former. **
from Education's Rotten Apples By Alfie Kohn
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
Deborah in IL
**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
just 2 easy steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D66
8072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it!
*****
Actually, this varies from one state to another. For example, here in New Mexico, all that's required is to register each year as homeschoolers. No testing, no journals, no portfolio. Some states don't even require a registration (Okla for example) or only once to establish your 'private school' (Texas). Others require annual testing, examples of children's works, etc (New York and Pennsylvania seem to require a lot), and yet still people manage to unschool their children there, too.
When you choose to unschool find out what your state actually requires to comply with local laws, then do only as much as is required. I've come across a fair number of school-at-home families who do much more documenting than required. In my experience, any time we offer authorities more info and 'proof' about our private lives than is required by law, we open ourselves up to a higher standard and level of intrusion than is necessary, or helpful. <g>
Sylvia
family blog my blog
photo blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*****
Actually, this varies from one state to another. For example, here in New Mexico, all that's required is to register each year as homeschoolers. No testing, no journals, no portfolio. Some states don't even require a registration (Okla for example) or only once to establish your 'private school' (Texas). Others require annual testing, examples of children's works, etc (New York and Pennsylvania seem to require a lot), and yet still people manage to unschool their children there, too.
When you choose to unschool find out what your state actually requires to comply with local laws, then do only as much as is required. I've come across a fair number of school-at-home families who do much more documenting than required. In my experience, any time we offer authorities more info and 'proof' about our private lives than is required by law, we open ourselves up to a higher standard and level of intrusion than is necessary, or helpful. <g>
Sylvia
family blog my blog
photo blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cindybablitz
> Alfie Kohn has written a lot on education and parenting topics thatLOL. Just had this conversation over on another list.
> can be illiminating for unschooling parents to read although I
> don't think he takes his conclusions far enough. :)
I dedicate an entire chapter to some of Kohn's ideas in the book I'm
writing ... and, yeah, agree that he often stops short of what, to
me, looks like the next obvious conclusion.
I think so much of what Kohn advocates is congruent with an
unschooling life. So, I always find it ironic when he openly asserts
that he is not advocate of homeschooling ... until he extrapolated on
the "why" at a lecture in Calgary this month:
(From my manuscript:)
"At a lecture in Calgary in February, 2009 promoting his book, The
Schools Our Children Deserve: Moving Beyond Traditional Classrooms
and Tougher Standards, Alfie Kohn, author, speaker, and, according to
Time magazine, "the prolific, perpetual critic of today's test
driven schools" said, "I am not an advocate of homeschooling."
"So why then, you might ask, am I devoting an entire chapter in my
book about our unschooling life to Kohn, professed non-advocate of
homeschooling?
"Well, first, for the unfamiliar, I'll explain that Kohn is an oft-
quoted supporter of alternative learning ideals frequently touted by
homeschoolers or, more accurately, by unschoolers. Kohn is
something of a beacon of hope, an advocate of ideals, a credible,
pontificated, studied activist supporting the cause of non-punitive,
non-conforming parenting, educating and relationship building in
families and in communities.
"(Now it should be noted, we unschoolers tend to be a spirited lot,
deeply thoughtful, opinionated, independent. And we're not given to
unanimous, point-by-point, sweeping agreement on, well, just about
anything. I've had my share of conversations within the unschooling
community during which this aspect or that position of Kohn's was
critically examined for its efficacy within an attachment parenting,
wholly democratic, unschooling life, to varying degrees of agreement,
or lack of. In other words, for the purposes of fair representation
of the global unschooling community, in toto, it should not be
assumed that all unschoolers endorse all aspects of all platforms
Kohn soapboxes. That disclaimer aside, a lot of us really like that
Kohn is using his energies which are significant in service to
ideals that are, by and large, consistent with a willingness to buck
the mainstream coma in favour of non-conforming, uncontrived, child-
led, democratic learning lives such as we embrace with unschooling.)
"In attendance at the February oh nine lecture were a significant
number of us who'd been in audience the year previous, when, in the
same room, Kohn was lecturing about non-punitive parenting and
promoting his book Unconditional Parenting: Moving From Rewards and
Punishments to Love and Reason. When Kohn declared aloud, this year,
in the question period following his prepared presentation that,
alas, he is not an advocate of homeschooling, I simultaneously
perceived audible snorts and gasps. From the anti-homeschooling
camp, sneers of absolution, (`See? Even Kohn doesn't endorse that
half-cocked, socially ruinous abomination of homeschooling!') From
the pro-homeschooling camp, sobs of offense, (`What?! Our beloved
spokesmodel for unconditional parenting doesn't love my decision to
home/unschool my children?')
""I am not an advocate of homeschooling," declared Kohn, "because
most homeschoolers bring the worst of traditional schooling into the
home with textbooks and workbooks and quizzes and standardized
tests and grades and all the various and sundry bribes and rewards
that suck the life out of learning."
"Indeed. He's absolutely accurate. Most homeschoolers support an
annual $850 million corporate curriculum market that is burgeoning to
meet the demand of a seven to 15 per cent annual growth rate ... <and
I go on from there ... noting: "But unschoolers don't do that.">"
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
Jet Lakey
" Depends on where you live. My kids are 24, 21, and 18 and we kept
zero educational records of any type. None. Zip. Our state doesn't
require them."
state does require record keeping if just for the portfolio..again i
forgot this wasn't the local district group!
zero educational records of any type. None. Zip. Our state doesn't
require them."
>sorry guys, I forgot I wasn't on my "local" yahoo group! me bad. our
state does require record keeping if just for the portfolio..again i
forgot this wasn't the local district group!
Jet Lakey
sorry guys. forgot this wasn't my local group. me bad. our state (wv) does require records if just a very basic portfolio for review. forgot this was national!
Jet Lakey
-live simply so others may simply live-
To: [email protected]
From: sylgt04@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:16:20 -0800
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it!
*****
Actually, this varies from one state to another. For example, here in New Mexico, all that's required is to register each year as homeschoolers. No testing, no journals, no portfolio. Some states don't even require a registration (Okla for example) or only once to establish your 'private school' (Texas). Others require annual testing, examples of children's works, etc (New York and Pennsylvania seem to require a lot), and yet still people manage to unschool their children there, too.
When you choose to unschool find out what your state actually requires to comply with local laws, then do only as much as is required. I've come across a fair number of school-at-home families who do much more documenting than required. In my experience, any time we offer authorities more info and 'proof' about our private lives than is required by law, we open ourselves up to a higher standard and level of intrusion than is necessary, or helpful. <g>
Sylvia
family blog my blog
photo blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live� Hotmail�:�more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jet Lakey
-live simply so others may simply live-
To: [email protected]
From: sylgt04@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:16:20 -0800
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it!
*****
Actually, this varies from one state to another. For example, here in New Mexico, all that's required is to register each year as homeschoolers. No testing, no journals, no portfolio. Some states don't even require a registration (Okla for example) or only once to establish your 'private school' (Texas). Others require annual testing, examples of children's works, etc (New York and Pennsylvania seem to require a lot), and yet still people manage to unschool their children there, too.
When you choose to unschool find out what your state actually requires to comply with local laws, then do only as much as is required. I've come across a fair number of school-at-home families who do much more documenting than required. In my experience, any time we offer authorities more info and 'proof' about our private lives than is required by law, we open ourselves up to a higher standard and level of intrusion than is necessary, or helpful. <g>
Sylvia
family blog my blog
photo blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live� Hotmail�:�more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cindybablitz
> forgot this was national!International, girl! <G>
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
Jet Lakey
oh geez..i am really off! i got refered here from another homeschool group! oh just shoot me now!LOL
Jet Lakey
-live simply so others may simply live-
To: [email protected]
From: cindybablitz@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:47:31 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
_________________________________________________________________
It�s the same Hotmail�. If by �same� you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jet Lakey
-live simply so others may simply live-
To: [email protected]
From: cindybablitz@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:47:31 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
> forgot this was national!International, girl! <G>
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
_________________________________________________________________
It�s the same Hotmail�. If by �same� you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather & Markus Schleidt
Actually glad that you wrote all of this. I have just recently been reading most everything I can find from Alfie Kohn because his educational ideals are right in line with mine - no standardized testing, no rewards or punishments (grades), non-conforming ways of teaching, etc. Anyway, I hadn't found ANYTHING that remotely suggested WHY he was not pro-homeschooling. In fact, I sent a few of his articles to a friend of mine whose kids are montessori-educated and she loves him and asked why he was not a homeschooling advocate and NOW I GET IT!!! Homeschooling has become quite trendy and the use of online e-schools, etc have become such a "norm" that I cringe inside when people tell me they "homeschool" using an online PS program. I would estimate that 50% of the people I know casually use this type of homeschooling program and consider themselves homeschoolers.
Maybe he has the same misconceptions about unschooling that are often thrown around on this message board from people who are just becoming aware of unschooling. I don't know exactly what your book is going to address with him, but most of the looks I get when I tell people we unschool is that we non-school. They think we veg around the house and hope that our children learn something by osmosis while they are playing video games and eating their 44 chocolate chip cookies at 3 am in the morning.
Hopefully Mr. Kohn will get a glimpse of the reality of unschooling through your book (I'd send him a FREE copy, just in case :)!! Let us know when it's done - I'd be interested.
Heather
To: [email protected]
From: cindybablitz@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:31:37 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
I dedicate an entire chapter to some of Kohn's ideas in the book I'm
writing ... and, yeah, agree that he often stops short of what, to
me, looks like the next obvious conclusion.
I think so much of what Kohn advocates is congruent with an
unschooling life. So, I always find it ironic when he openly asserts
that he is not advocate of homeschooling ... until he extrapolated on
the "why" at a lecture in Calgary this month:
(From my manuscript:)
"At a lecture in Calgary in February, 2009 promoting his book, The
Schools Our Children Deserve: Moving Beyond Traditional Classrooms
and Tougher Standards, Alfie Kohn, author, speaker, and, according to
Time magazine, "the prolific, perpetual critic of today's test
driven schools" said, "I am not an advocate of homeschooling."
"So why then, you might ask, am I devoting an entire chapter in my
book about our unschooling life to Kohn, professed non-advocate of
homeschooling?
"Well, first, for the unfamiliar, I'll explain that Kohn is an oft-
quoted supporter of alternative learning ideals frequently touted by
homeschoolers � or, more accurately, by unschoolers. Kohn is
something of a beacon of hope, an advocate of ideals, a credible,
pontificated, studied activist supporting the cause of non-punitive,
non-conforming parenting, educating and relationship building in
families and in communities.
"(Now it should be noted, we unschoolers tend to be a spirited lot,
deeply thoughtful, opinionated, independent. And we're not given to
unanimous, point-by-point, sweeping agreement on, well, just about
anything. I've had my share of conversations within the unschooling
community during which this aspect or that position of Kohn's was
critically examined for its efficacy within an attachment parenting,
wholly democratic, unschooling life, to varying degrees of agreement,
or lack of. In other words, for the purposes of fair representation
of the global unschooling community, in toto, it should not be
assumed that all unschoolers endorse all aspects of all platforms
Kohn soapboxes. That disclaimer aside, a lot of us really like that
Kohn is using his energies � which are significant � in service to
ideals that are, by and large, consistent with a willingness to buck
the mainstream coma in favour of non-conforming, uncontrived, child-
led, democratic learning lives such as we embrace with unschooling.)
"In attendance at the February oh nine lecture were a significant
number of us who'd been in audience the year previous, when, in the
same room, Kohn was lecturing about non-punitive parenting and
promoting his book Unconditional Parenting: Moving From Rewards and
Punishments to Love and Reason. When Kohn declared aloud, this year,
in the question period following his prepared presentation that,
alas, he is not an advocate of homeschooling, I simultaneously
perceived audible snorts and gasps. From the anti-homeschooling
camp, sneers of absolution, (`See? Even Kohn doesn't endorse that
half-cocked, socially ruinous abomination of homeschooling!') From
the pro-homeschooling camp, sobs of offense, (`What?! Our beloved
spokesmodel for unconditional parenting doesn't love my decision to
home/unschool my children?')
""I am not an advocate of homeschooling," declared Kohn, "because
most homeschoolers bring the worst of traditional schooling into the
home � with textbooks and workbooks and quizzes and standardized
tests and grades and all the various and sundry bribes and rewards
that suck the life out of learning."
"Indeed. He's absolutely accurate. Most homeschoolers support an
annual $850 million corporate curriculum market that is burgeoning to
meet the demand of a seven to 15 per cent annual growth rate ... <and
I go on from there ... noting: "But unschoolers don't do that.">"
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live� Hotmail�:�more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe he has the same misconceptions about unschooling that are often thrown around on this message board from people who are just becoming aware of unschooling. I don't know exactly what your book is going to address with him, but most of the looks I get when I tell people we unschool is that we non-school. They think we veg around the house and hope that our children learn something by osmosis while they are playing video games and eating their 44 chocolate chip cookies at 3 am in the morning.
Hopefully Mr. Kohn will get a glimpse of the reality of unschooling through your book (I'd send him a FREE copy, just in case :)!! Let us know when it's done - I'd be interested.
Heather
To: [email protected]
From: cindybablitz@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:31:37 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
> Alfie Kohn has written a lot on education and parenting topics thatLOL. Just had this conversation over on another list.
> can be illiminating for unschooling parents to read although I
> don't think he takes his conclusions far enough. :)
I dedicate an entire chapter to some of Kohn's ideas in the book I'm
writing ... and, yeah, agree that he often stops short of what, to
me, looks like the next obvious conclusion.
I think so much of what Kohn advocates is congruent with an
unschooling life. So, I always find it ironic when he openly asserts
that he is not advocate of homeschooling ... until he extrapolated on
the "why" at a lecture in Calgary this month:
(From my manuscript:)
"At a lecture in Calgary in February, 2009 promoting his book, The
Schools Our Children Deserve: Moving Beyond Traditional Classrooms
and Tougher Standards, Alfie Kohn, author, speaker, and, according to
Time magazine, "the prolific, perpetual critic of today's test
driven schools" said, "I am not an advocate of homeschooling."
"So why then, you might ask, am I devoting an entire chapter in my
book about our unschooling life to Kohn, professed non-advocate of
homeschooling?
"Well, first, for the unfamiliar, I'll explain that Kohn is an oft-
quoted supporter of alternative learning ideals frequently touted by
homeschoolers � or, more accurately, by unschoolers. Kohn is
something of a beacon of hope, an advocate of ideals, a credible,
pontificated, studied activist supporting the cause of non-punitive,
non-conforming parenting, educating and relationship building in
families and in communities.
"(Now it should be noted, we unschoolers tend to be a spirited lot,
deeply thoughtful, opinionated, independent. And we're not given to
unanimous, point-by-point, sweeping agreement on, well, just about
anything. I've had my share of conversations within the unschooling
community during which this aspect or that position of Kohn's was
critically examined for its efficacy within an attachment parenting,
wholly democratic, unschooling life, to varying degrees of agreement,
or lack of. In other words, for the purposes of fair representation
of the global unschooling community, in toto, it should not be
assumed that all unschoolers endorse all aspects of all platforms
Kohn soapboxes. That disclaimer aside, a lot of us really like that
Kohn is using his energies � which are significant � in service to
ideals that are, by and large, consistent with a willingness to buck
the mainstream coma in favour of non-conforming, uncontrived, child-
led, democratic learning lives such as we embrace with unschooling.)
"In attendance at the February oh nine lecture were a significant
number of us who'd been in audience the year previous, when, in the
same room, Kohn was lecturing about non-punitive parenting and
promoting his book Unconditional Parenting: Moving From Rewards and
Punishments to Love and Reason. When Kohn declared aloud, this year,
in the question period following his prepared presentation that,
alas, he is not an advocate of homeschooling, I simultaneously
perceived audible snorts and gasps. From the anti-homeschooling
camp, sneers of absolution, (`See? Even Kohn doesn't endorse that
half-cocked, socially ruinous abomination of homeschooling!') From
the pro-homeschooling camp, sobs of offense, (`What?! Our beloved
spokesmodel for unconditional parenting doesn't love my decision to
home/unschool my children?')
""I am not an advocate of homeschooling," declared Kohn, "because
most homeschoolers bring the worst of traditional schooling into the
home � with textbooks and workbooks and quizzes and standardized
tests and grades and all the various and sundry bribes and rewards
that suck the life out of learning."
"Indeed. He's absolutely accurate. Most homeschoolers support an
annual $850 million corporate curriculum market that is burgeoning to
meet the demand of a seven to 15 per cent annual growth rate ... <and
I go on from there ... noting: "But unschoolers don't do that.">"
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live� Hotmail�:�more than just e-mail.
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Heather & Markus Schleidt
Ohio requires either 1) standardized testing 2) portfolio review by a certified teacher or 3) and evaluation by an agreed upon person between the parent and the superintendent.
I just found an unschool-friendly certified teacher. He is a librarian and plays in a band at nights. The first time I met him I brought a whole bunch of "stuff" that we had casually worked on throughout the year just in case and he didn't even look at it. He just talked to me, asked if I felt I was taking care of my child's needs in a way appropriate to our family needs and we had coffee for an hour.
He signed my papers and I have had no problems. He certainly can't be the only certified teacher (if you have to have one for your state) that feels this way. Find the right person to help ease the strain of the bureaucracy. They are out there.
Heather
To: [email protected]
From: sylgt04@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:16:20 -0800
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it!
*****
Actually, this varies from one state to another. For example, here in New Mexico, all that's required is to register each year as homeschoolers. No testing, no journals, no portfolio. Some states don't even require a registration (Okla for example) or only once to establish your 'private school' (Texas). Others require annual testing, examples of children's works, etc (New York and Pennsylvania seem to require a lot), and yet still people manage to unschool their children there, too.
When you choose to unschool find out what your state actually requires to comply with local laws, then do only as much as is required. I've come across a fair number of school-at-home families who do much more documenting than required. In my experience, any time we offer authorities more info and 'proof' about our private lives than is required by law, we open ourselves up to a higher standard and level of intrusion than is necessary, or helpful. <g>
Sylvia
family blog my blog
photo blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just found an unschool-friendly certified teacher. He is a librarian and plays in a band at nights. The first time I met him I brought a whole bunch of "stuff" that we had casually worked on throughout the year just in case and he didn't even look at it. He just talked to me, asked if I felt I was taking care of my child's needs in a way appropriate to our family needs and we had coffee for an hour.
He signed my papers and I have had no problems. He certainly can't be the only certified teacher (if you have to have one for your state) that feels this way. Find the right person to help ease the strain of the bureaucracy. They are out there.
Heather
To: [email protected]
From: sylgt04@...
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:16:20 -0800
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
you do have to keep some records for the state. but kiddo's don't need to know about it!
*****
Actually, this varies from one state to another. For example, here in New Mexico, all that's required is to register each year as homeschoolers. No testing, no journals, no portfolio. Some states don't even require a registration (Okla for example) or only once to establish your 'private school' (Texas). Others require annual testing, examples of children's works, etc (New York and Pennsylvania seem to require a lot), and yet still people manage to unschool their children there, too.
When you choose to unschool find out what your state actually requires to comply with local laws, then do only as much as is required. I've come across a fair number of school-at-home families who do much more documenting than required. In my experience, any time we offer authorities more info and 'proof' about our private lives than is required by law, we open ourselves up to a higher standard and level of intrusion than is necessary, or helpful. <g>
Sylvia
family blog my blog
photo blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele James-Parham
> To: [email protected]-=-=-
> From: cindybablitz@...
> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:31:37 +0000
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: All or nothing?
> ""I am not an advocate of homeschooling," declared Kohn, "because-=-=-
> most homeschoolers bring the worst of traditional schooling into the
> home with textbooks and workbooks and quizzes and standardized
> tests and grades and all the various and sundry bribes and rewards
> that suck the life out of learning."
-=-=-
> I go on from there ... noting: "But unschoolers don't do that."-=-=-
Did he say "But unschoolers don't do that."?
Peace and Love.
Michele James-Parham
www.naturalattachment.net
cindybablitz
>> ""I am not an advocate of homeschooling," declared Kohn, "becauseNo, I did. Do. <G> I don't know if Kohn knows anything about
>> most homeschoolers bring the worst of traditional schooling into
>> the home with textbooks and workbooks and quizzes and
>> standardized tests and grades and all the various and sundry bribes
>> and rewards that suck the life out of learning."
>> I go on from there ... noting: "But unschoolers don't do that."
> Did he say "But unschoolers don't do that."?
unschooling. My guess is that he knows very little about it. Oh,
here, I'll quote myself from another list:
<someone else said:>
> I greatly admired Alfie Kohn for his book Unconditional parenting,<and then I said:>
> which I seem to remember doesn't get into schooling too much except
> to say he hates grades as the reward and punishment system. So
> because I admire him and agreed with so much of what he has to say
> in his book, I just thought he and John Holt were pretty much in
> sync with each other. I was shook up because I found out they
> aren't completely. It might be a silly thing to be shook up about,
> but it was just one of those flash moments where I realized someone
> important in my thought system wouldn't be backing me up in my
> newly found unschooling excitement.
"Well, and I don't think that's a safe assumption to make. I'm willing
to bet that he *would* be quite supportive of you and your newly found
unschooling excitement. What does Kohn know about unschooling -- the
word or its ideals? I have no idea! What does he know about Holt, or
Gatto, or Kream or Dodd or Allen or Aldort or Fetteroll or Bablitz?
<fallutin' grin> I have no idea! Ergo, I can't deign to assume he
wouldn't sit across the table from me while I waxed on about our non-
reward and non-punishment and non-traditional non-institutional non-
program-of-studies-decreed learning path and muster restraint from
leaping over same to embrace me with passion for my like mind to his
ideals!
"Looking around the room when he was requesting hands up for
demographics, it was clear there were as many homeschooling parents in
his attendance last night as there were parents of schooled kids, as
professional teachers. Kohn might not consider himself an advocate
of "homeschooling", but we do. Unwitting or not, clearly, Kohn is
voicing with authority and credibility the fundamental premise of
unschooling. *He* can choose to direct his energy into a system of his
choosing. I shall not discontinue admiring and being inspired by his
conviction and the depth and breadth of research to which he is giving
air that supports the system of *my* choosing. Is all I'm saying."
..........
If you want to keep reading, the following exchange preceded the
above:
<someone else wrote:>
> Hey I was wondering if any of oyu went to the Alfie Kohn talk last<and I wrote:>
> night about schooling and what you thought? Alisha filled me in on
> his position and it kind of shook me up. I wasn't expecting it.
"His position on what shook you up? What weren't you expecting?
"Alfie Kohn has always been abundantly clear that his position is pro-
school reform. In this way, he follows, (or parallels?) Gatto's
early years efforts which were, pro-school reform. I'm not saying
Kohn is going to follow Gatto's lead as an eventual pro-unschooling
advocate: what I am saying is, frankly, I don't understand why
anything Kohn had to say last night would have shocked or shook up
any of us following an unschooly path.
""I am not an advocate of homeschooling."
"This was a direct quote, and, in fact, is becoming the opening line
of my K (for Kohn) chapter in my book about UNSCHOOLING.
"Why, you ask? Because of what he said next:
"("I am not an advocate of homeschooling) because most homeschoolers
bring the worst of traditional schooling into the home -- with text
books and work books and assignments and grades and comparative
achievement tests."
"We don't do that. Unschooling doesn't do that.
"If you take everything Alfie said last night, (which I did, in 14
pages of notes, which will comprise a large part of my Kohn chapter)
and substitute "In progressive schools" with "In unschooling" every
word of what he DOES advocate fits what we're doing!
"Alfie is a former school teacher. His platform is within the school
system. His passion is as an advocate of school reform. I believe
our culture NEEDS troublemakers like Alfie Kohn TO ADVOCATE for the
abolition of all the nonsense propagated on the young people of our
society for 13 of their formative years! AND I do not believe that
his choice to advocate FOR progressive, democratic, child-led,
permissive, free learning opportunities (any of those adjectives look
strangely familiar?) for students in school systems IN ANY WAY
negates the profound merit of what WE'RE doing as unschoolers!
"*I'll* pick up where Alfie leaves off. I'LL advocate for
unschooling. (We can all do that, yeah?) I don't need Alfie to do
all the work he's doing in his arena AND do all the work in my chosen
arena too! Sheesh! He *is* an oddly energetic little man, but he IS
only ONE man after all!
"From Alfie's platform, he urges parents to band together in unity
against the atrocity of compartmentalizing learning (that is meted
out on students in schools)! From Alfie's platform, he urges parents
to stand FOR project-based, problem-based, solutions-oriented real,
whole-life learning (within the school system)! From Alfie's
platform, he compels us to create environments within which our
children can celebrate their birthright love of learning (within
shcools)! From Alfie's platform, he urges us to advocate for our
children, to free them of the tyranny of textbooks, workbooks,
assignments, rote memorization, quizzes, tests, grades,
standardizations and corporate conforming (in school classrooms)!
From Alfie's platform, he admonishes us to not kill the natural,
organic, inherent in being human desire to love life long learning!
Remove the parentheticals from the above and tell me how what Alfie
is advocating FOR is incongruent with anything we do as unschoolers?!
"*I* think what Alfie offered last night was a manifesto for
unschooling! The fact that he is passionate about serving and
supporting the millions of students who will go to school, period,
(for the zillions of reasons that families do choose school and would
never choose "homeschooling") with his ideologies does nothing to
preclude the fact that his ideologies remain abundantly consistent
with unschooling methodology.
"To be shocked that Kohn advocates for progressive school reform,
(ergo does not advocate for "homeschooling") is akin to being shocked
that, dunno, oh, how about that Babes In Arms sells organic cloth
diapers instead of spending their energy teaching people how to use e-
bay or freecycle or garage sales to access organic cloth diapers.
The ideology remains consistent with a principle: using reusable,
environmentally-conscious, non-consumable options whenever possible
is a good thing! Babes In Arms supports that ideal in their business
model. Someone Else might be standing in 100 per cent congruency
with the ideal AND be establishing themselves as a consulting service
on accessing previously-enjoyed (a.k.a. used) reusable,
environmentally-conscious, non-consumable options.
"So maybe what I'm saying is this: as I establish myself as an
emerging advocate FOR unschooling, do not assume that I
am 'against' progressive school reform. Likewise, I implore you to
not assume that because Alfie Kohn is a leader in advocacy FOR
progressive school reform means that he is 'against' unschooling.
"What he said is dead-on accurate: MOST people who homeschool
(unschoolers might represent ten per cent of the total homeschooling
population? -- said population who support a burgeoning $850m a year
corporate curriculum growth industry in North America
alone) DO bring the worst of traditional schools into their home. A
vast majority of homeschoolers *actively endorse* everything Kohn
thinks is pure shyte about K-12 education. He doesn't advocate for
that. What's shocking about that? If anything, the fact that he
doesn't advocate for bringing the worst of schools into homeschools
only strengthens -- or should -- our resolve as unschoolers, who
reject outright the worst of schools and schooly, systemic, 'jug and
mug' approach to 'teaching'.
"In my opinion.
<G>"
Cindy
Host of Alphabet Soup: 2009 Calgary Unschooling Conference
http://www.alphabetsoupconference.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlphabetSoupConference/
Michele James-Parham
Thanks so much for sharing that with me. I agree with everything you
said about Kohn inadvertently advocating (in my mind) for unschooling.
I think when he uses the VERY important word "most" in his statement
about homeschooling, it leaves room for he possibility that he does
know about unschooling. I am looking forward to reading your book when
you get finished.
Peace and Love
Michele James-Parham
www.naturalattachment.net
said about Kohn inadvertently advocating (in my mind) for unschooling.
I think when he uses the VERY important word "most" in his statement
about homeschooling, it leaves room for he possibility that he does
know about unschooling. I am looking forward to reading your book when
you get finished.
Peace and Love
Michele James-Parham
www.naturalattachment.net
Kelly Lovejoy
In SC, we *have* to keep records. So I jot down what we "cover" daily and keep tickets. brochures, flyers, etc. that we collect when we go out. I keep lists of library books, personal books, games, and projects. I have to write two progress reports each year. It's the law.
But I don't keep track of what he *should* be learning/doing---just what he actually learns/does. I think "shoulds" have no place in our homeschooling.
If your state requires record-keeping, then by all means do it! As long as it doesn't interfere with your child's learning,....
If it keeps you busy and out of his way and if it helps you see the learning that is happening, then I think it can help you be at peace with unschooling. On the other hand, I think it can stand in the way of REAL learning if you're too busy trying to keep him at "grade level" or "ahead."
Caution. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: xandersmom0529 <melissa.mccowan@...>
Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point and
still go with their interests? I have training in Early Childhood
Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
they would be20learning at xyz time. He has an interest and I take that
interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
or whatever.
Am I just not getting it?
I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structure
of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME! DS just sees the
end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more). Is that still
unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me. Basically
can't I take from wherever works for us?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But I don't keep track of what he *should* be learning/doing---just what he actually learns/does. I think "shoulds" have no place in our homeschooling.
If your state requires record-keeping, then by all means do it! As long as it doesn't interfere with your child's learning,....
If it keeps you busy and out of his way and if it helps you see the learning that is happening, then I think it can help you be at peace with unschooling. On the other hand, I think it can stand in the way of REAL learning if you're too busy trying to keep him at "grade level" or "ahead."
Caution. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: xandersmom0529 <melissa.mccowan@...>
Can't we keep track of what he "should" be doing at this point and
still go with their interests? I have training in Early Childhood
Education (one of my degrees/diplomas) and have started and figured
I'd continue to utilize that method of child-led learning / using the
world and themselves, rather than worksheets to learn whatever it is
they would be20learning at xyz time. He has an interest and I take that
interest and point out, as an example, the physics of the human body
or whatever.
Am I just not getting it?
I see unschooling as lacking in record keeping. I like the structure
of records, planning and developmental charts FOR ME! DS just sees the
end product (maybe as he gets older he will see more). Is that still
unschooling and does it really matter if it works for me. Basically
can't I take from wherever works for us?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]