Having doubts today
The Patersons
Hi. I'm having a doubting day and I wonder what you people would have done
in this situation.
Our homeschool group is having a poetry and pizza day tomorrow. My 9 yo
daughter and I thought it was last week and got prepared for it then. She
said to me, "Come on, let's write out our poems," and I (surprised that she
would suggest it) agreed. We started and then looked at the calendar and
went, "Oh, no, it's next week" so we put the stuff away.
Today, my daughter seemed a little bored - she gets a kind of pouty puppy
look which tells me she wants something to do. I said, "Shall we do
something together?" and got a nod. I said, "Want to play a game" and got a
head shake. So then I said, "Why don't we get our poems ready for tomorrow."
She had an immediate burst of enthusiasm and went off to get the poetry book
she wanted to copy from.
We got to the table and I was sitting writing out my poem. She started,
wrote about 6 words and then scribbled it out and sat looking at it.
"Everything ok?" I said?
"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
"Oh, really?" I said, "I think you probably could."
"No, I can't," she said. And then,
"Can you write it out for me?"
"I'm writing out my own poem," I said. "I don't really want to write yours
out too. I'm sure you can write it. Maybe just start with four lines or even
one line and go from there. You could do it a bit at a time."
She shook her head, and then just sat there.
"You don't have to copy it out if you don't want to," I said. "But I don't
want to copy it out for you. You could go and do something different if you
want."
I then continued to copy out my poem (which was long) and even got to do a
second one.
She didn't give off happy vibes, and after two minutes went to her room, got
a different poem and started to copy that. She finished it all (actually, it
was much longer than the original one) and then I finished too.
Later, in the evening, she happily read out her poem to me.
I asked her a little later how she felt about the writing and she said, "I
don't like writing much and I don't have much confidence."
Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole page of words
down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago) I knew
she could write. I thought it was about getting over that 'starting' hump
that I sometimes face when I set out on a project. Has she lost confidence
because she hasn't written in so long? She has gone from being a child who
believed she had a real talent for writing stories (and she does) to being
someone who now hates writing and says she definitely doesn't want to be a
writer when she grows up - yet 8 months ago that was her dream - at least,
that's what she said.
What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
achieve things in life? She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
things. But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were too hard.... perhaps
I'm answering my own question.
Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff). So the unschooled teenagers who
seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
Thanks for your help!
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in this situation.
Our homeschool group is having a poetry and pizza day tomorrow. My 9 yo
daughter and I thought it was last week and got prepared for it then. She
said to me, "Come on, let's write out our poems," and I (surprised that she
would suggest it) agreed. We started and then looked at the calendar and
went, "Oh, no, it's next week" so we put the stuff away.
Today, my daughter seemed a little bored - she gets a kind of pouty puppy
look which tells me she wants something to do. I said, "Shall we do
something together?" and got a nod. I said, "Want to play a game" and got a
head shake. So then I said, "Why don't we get our poems ready for tomorrow."
She had an immediate burst of enthusiasm and went off to get the poetry book
she wanted to copy from.
We got to the table and I was sitting writing out my poem. She started,
wrote about 6 words and then scribbled it out and sat looking at it.
"Everything ok?" I said?
"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
"Oh, really?" I said, "I think you probably could."
"No, I can't," she said. And then,
"Can you write it out for me?"
"I'm writing out my own poem," I said. "I don't really want to write yours
out too. I'm sure you can write it. Maybe just start with four lines or even
one line and go from there. You could do it a bit at a time."
She shook her head, and then just sat there.
"You don't have to copy it out if you don't want to," I said. "But I don't
want to copy it out for you. You could go and do something different if you
want."
I then continued to copy out my poem (which was long) and even got to do a
second one.
She didn't give off happy vibes, and after two minutes went to her room, got
a different poem and started to copy that. She finished it all (actually, it
was much longer than the original one) and then I finished too.
Later, in the evening, she happily read out her poem to me.
I asked her a little later how she felt about the writing and she said, "I
don't like writing much and I don't have much confidence."
Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole page of words
down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago) I knew
she could write. I thought it was about getting over that 'starting' hump
that I sometimes face when I set out on a project. Has she lost confidence
because she hasn't written in so long? She has gone from being a child who
believed she had a real talent for writing stories (and she does) to being
someone who now hates writing and says she definitely doesn't want to be a
writer when she grows up - yet 8 months ago that was her dream - at least,
that's what she said.
What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
achieve things in life? She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
things. But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were too hard.... perhaps
I'm answering my own question.
Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff). So the unschooled teenagers who
seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
Thanks for your help!
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
Hi. I'm having a doubting day and I wonder what you people would have done
in this situation.
Our homeschool group is having a poetry and pizza day tomorrow. My 9 yo
daughter and I thought it was last week and got prepared for it then. She
said to me, "Come on, let's write out our poems," and I (surprised that she
would suggest it) agreed. We started and then looked at the calendar and
went, "Oh, no, it's next week" so we put the stuff away.
****If we were excited and thought it was fun, we'd just keep doing it, even
though it was needed until the next week.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We got to the table and I was sitting writing out my poem. She started,
wrote about 6 words and then scribbled it out and sat looking at it.
"Everything ok?" I said?
"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
"Oh, really?" I said, "I think you probably could."
***I would have stayed with how she is feeling. I might have said, "You
think you can't do it?" or "You are feeling frustrated."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I can't," she said. And then,
"Can you write it out for me?"
***I would say of course. And write it out.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm writing out my own poem," I said. "I don't really want to write yours
out too. I'm sure you can write it. Maybe just start with four lines or even
one line and go from there. You could do it a bit at a time."
***I don't see how this is helpful. It seems unkind. It is also negating her
feelings without acknowledging them. She FELT like she couldn't. Sometimes
my kids need my gift of helping with something they are capable in doing.
They need me to be there for them in their time of need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She shook her head, and then just sat there.
***How do you imagine she felt?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You don't have to copy it out if you don't want to," I said. "But I don't
want to copy it out for you. You could go and do something different if you
want."
****It seems like she needed you to help her or at least problem solve with
her. You gave her an ultimatum. You do the writing or it doesn't get done. I
don't know what she needed but likely she would have. Perhaps in another
situation in the future you could ask her.
"It seems we have a problem, you don't want to write out your poem but you
want one written. I am busy writing my own and I can't help you right now.
What can we do about this?
Or is it because you felt strongly that she had to be the one to write it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She didn't give off happy vibes, and after two minutes went to her room, got
a different poem and started to copy that. She finished it all (actually, it
was much longer than the original one) and then I finished too.
***I would have stopped copying my poem to be with her through this
challenging time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later, in the evening, she happily read out her poem to me.
I asked her a little later how she felt about the writing and she said, "I
don't like writing much and I don't have much confidence."
****I would have talked with her a little more about that. What is she
lacking confidence with? Is it that she lacks confidence in her creativity
or in her handwriting or something else? Does she desire to improve it? Does
she just want help with making it "perfect"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole page of words
down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago)
****She and you are still de-schooling. That takes time, a lot of time
depending on the adults ability to let go of schooling thinking.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew she could write.
***Yes but she asked for help. I can clean the whole house but sometimes I
want/need help.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought it was about getting over that 'starting' hump
that I sometimes face when I set out on a project.
****Her challenges may be different. At 9 my dd didn't like her handwriting
but was not interested in improving it. If she felt like she would be judged
then she may have wanted me to write it neatly. As far as creativity, she
might have needed me to write out fast so that she had the space to get her
thoughts out in a flow rasther than struggle with the writing and the
thinking. If it was just copying she would have found that rather tedious
and not been interested. I would have done it for her. Not at 12 she is a
voracious writer. She writes a couple hours per day (by choice, she is
writing a novel)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has she lost confidence
because she hasn't written in so long?
***Ask her. Likely she had other issues or she is still hanging on the some
school thinking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
She has gone from being a child who
believed she had a real talent for writing stories (and she does) to being
someone who now hates writing and says she definitely doesn't want to be a
writer when she grows up - yet 8 months ago that was her dream - at least,
that's what she said.
***Max, my 12dd has always been a story teller and then a writer. When she
discovered that you could write stories down and have then told over and
over again (3ish) She was ready to write! Yet she didn't have the skills
yet. SO I wrote for her. I wrote for her for years. She slowly developed the
skills to do her writing herself in private. By 9 she just wasn't there. She
needed me to help her a lot still. Writing was not comfortable or easy. And
that is ok. You don't need to write everyday or be forced to write to make
it easier. Time takes care of that.
AS far as her dreams 8 months ago, well they will change a lot at this age.
Heck I am 35 and I still change my goals a lot. I love to explore new things
and ideas frequently. I have many dreams. Some I follow and some I let go,
so do my kids. Having been unschooled their whole lives my kids have never
thought about "what do you want to be when you grow up" they think in terms
of "I am a writer." or "I write stories." They are very much living their
own lives RIGHT NOW!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
***I am not sure I get this question but heres my take. Strewing is when you
leave things that you think someone might be interested laying around. I
might find a book about deconstruction clothes and show it to my 12dd
because she my like it. Or I pick up a havndful of little toys at a ward
sake and put it in t basket for my little ones.
If someone asks for herlp and I am able I give it to them. I don't concern
myself over whether they really need it or not. I figure if they are asking
they want it for one reason or the other. If I can help I will help them
find a way to get their needs met.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
achieve things in life?
***She will need you there as a loving guide. She will need your hands and
heart to help her through.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
things.
****Is that really true? Does she have no motivation in the things that
interest her most?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were too hard.... perhaps
I'm answering my own question.
***It seems she was interested.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff). So the unschooled teenagers who
seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
****I believe there is a great new group out where you can ask the grown up
inschoolers yourself! Perhaps some one who isn't nursing can scrap up the
link. I don't think so though. It would be hard to blame your parents for
supporting and understanding you. Or for helping you find ways to met your
needs. Or for loving you and guiding you through life in a respectful way.
I think it would be really weird for anyone to wish that someone would have
oppressed them. There would be bigger issues if someone was looking for more
force.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in this situation.
Our homeschool group is having a poetry and pizza day tomorrow. My 9 yo
daughter and I thought it was last week and got prepared for it then. She
said to me, "Come on, let's write out our poems," and I (surprised that she
would suggest it) agreed. We started and then looked at the calendar and
went, "Oh, no, it's next week" so we put the stuff away.
****If we were excited and thought it was fun, we'd just keep doing it, even
though it was needed until the next week.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We got to the table and I was sitting writing out my poem. She started,
wrote about 6 words and then scribbled it out and sat looking at it.
"Everything ok?" I said?
"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
"Oh, really?" I said, "I think you probably could."
***I would have stayed with how she is feeling. I might have said, "You
think you can't do it?" or "You are feeling frustrated."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I can't," she said. And then,
"Can you write it out for me?"
***I would say of course. And write it out.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm writing out my own poem," I said. "I don't really want to write yours
out too. I'm sure you can write it. Maybe just start with four lines or even
one line and go from there. You could do it a bit at a time."
***I don't see how this is helpful. It seems unkind. It is also negating her
feelings without acknowledging them. She FELT like she couldn't. Sometimes
my kids need my gift of helping with something they are capable in doing.
They need me to be there for them in their time of need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She shook her head, and then just sat there.
***How do you imagine she felt?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You don't have to copy it out if you don't want to," I said. "But I don't
want to copy it out for you. You could go and do something different if you
want."
****It seems like she needed you to help her or at least problem solve with
her. You gave her an ultimatum. You do the writing or it doesn't get done. I
don't know what she needed but likely she would have. Perhaps in another
situation in the future you could ask her.
"It seems we have a problem, you don't want to write out your poem but you
want one written. I am busy writing my own and I can't help you right now.
What can we do about this?
Or is it because you felt strongly that she had to be the one to write it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She didn't give off happy vibes, and after two minutes went to her room, got
a different poem and started to copy that. She finished it all (actually, it
was much longer than the original one) and then I finished too.
***I would have stopped copying my poem to be with her through this
challenging time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later, in the evening, she happily read out her poem to me.
I asked her a little later how she felt about the writing and she said, "I
don't like writing much and I don't have much confidence."
****I would have talked with her a little more about that. What is she
lacking confidence with? Is it that she lacks confidence in her creativity
or in her handwriting or something else? Does she desire to improve it? Does
she just want help with making it "perfect"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole page of words
down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago)
****She and you are still de-schooling. That takes time, a lot of time
depending on the adults ability to let go of schooling thinking.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew she could write.
***Yes but she asked for help. I can clean the whole house but sometimes I
want/need help.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought it was about getting over that 'starting' hump
that I sometimes face when I set out on a project.
****Her challenges may be different. At 9 my dd didn't like her handwriting
but was not interested in improving it. If she felt like she would be judged
then she may have wanted me to write it neatly. As far as creativity, she
might have needed me to write out fast so that she had the space to get her
thoughts out in a flow rasther than struggle with the writing and the
thinking. If it was just copying she would have found that rather tedious
and not been interested. I would have done it for her. Not at 12 she is a
voracious writer. She writes a couple hours per day (by choice, she is
writing a novel)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has she lost confidence
because she hasn't written in so long?
***Ask her. Likely she had other issues or she is still hanging on the some
school thinking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
She has gone from being a child who
believed she had a real talent for writing stories (and she does) to being
someone who now hates writing and says she definitely doesn't want to be a
writer when she grows up - yet 8 months ago that was her dream - at least,
that's what she said.
***Max, my 12dd has always been a story teller and then a writer. When she
discovered that you could write stories down and have then told over and
over again (3ish) She was ready to write! Yet she didn't have the skills
yet. SO I wrote for her. I wrote for her for years. She slowly developed the
skills to do her writing herself in private. By 9 she just wasn't there. She
needed me to help her a lot still. Writing was not comfortable or easy. And
that is ok. You don't need to write everyday or be forced to write to make
it easier. Time takes care of that.
AS far as her dreams 8 months ago, well they will change a lot at this age.
Heck I am 35 and I still change my goals a lot. I love to explore new things
and ideas frequently. I have many dreams. Some I follow and some I let go,
so do my kids. Having been unschooled their whole lives my kids have never
thought about "what do you want to be when you grow up" they think in terms
of "I am a writer." or "I write stories." They are very much living their
own lives RIGHT NOW!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
***I am not sure I get this question but heres my take. Strewing is when you
leave things that you think someone might be interested laying around. I
might find a book about deconstruction clothes and show it to my 12dd
because she my like it. Or I pick up a havndful of little toys at a ward
sake and put it in t basket for my little ones.
If someone asks for herlp and I am able I give it to them. I don't concern
myself over whether they really need it or not. I figure if they are asking
they want it for one reason or the other. If I can help I will help them
find a way to get their needs met.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
achieve things in life?
***She will need you there as a loving guide. She will need your hands and
heart to help her through.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
things.
****Is that really true? Does she have no motivation in the things that
interest her most?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were too hard.... perhaps
I'm answering my own question.
***It seems she was interested.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff). So the unschooled teenagers who
seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
****I believe there is a great new group out where you can ask the grown up
inschoolers yourself! Perhaps some one who isn't nursing can scrap up the
link. I don't think so though. It would be hard to blame your parents for
supporting and understanding you. Or for helping you find ways to met your
needs. Or for loving you and guiding you through life in a respectful way.
I think it would be really weird for anyone to wish that someone would have
oppressed them. There would be bigger issues if someone was looking for more
force.
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie leonard
***"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
She shook her head, and then just sat there.***
Cecily~
Could it have been that at that moment, what you guys were doing felt an awful lot like school? Could you have done it outside? at a museum or park? at the library? put on some music, had a cup of tea? made the writing into an event itself? instead of a preparation for an event? Maybe that is where the trouble came from?
**"She didn't give off happy vibes, and after two minutes went to her room, got
a different poem and started to copy that. She finished it all (actually, it
was much longer than the original one) and then I finished too. **
Maybe do these things in her room where she feels more at home, or more inspired?
**"Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" **
I don't think your parents could have given you "inner Motivation" it defies the concept of inner; they could have motivated you with money, or treats, or threats of punishment, but that is external motivation, not inner motivation.
I hope the things that you choose or choose not to do today are choices that you make for your inner self, not for your parents, or anyone else.
Your child will do the same as she gets older, give her the confidence to motivate herself (which, if she did write the poem, she must have). It is just figuring out what motivates her.
Also, there are several writing/poetry groups online that she could practice and get feedback on her writing. maybe she could join one. My kids did for a while. Also, maybe you could have her enter some contests? or even write a little something for the local newspaper. Get her excited about what she can do with her talents and that will be motivation for her.
Hope this helps...good luck
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: The Patersons <tuipiri@...>
Our homeschool group is having a poetry and pizza day tomorrow. My 9 yo
daughter and I thought it was last week and got prepared for it then. She
said to me, "Come on, let's write out our poems," and I (surprised that she
would suggest it) agreed. We started and then looked at the calendar and
went, "Oh, no, it's next week" so we put the stuff away.
-=-=-=-=-
What does the calendar have to do with writing poetry?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm writing out my own poem," I said. "I don't really want to write yours
out too. I'm sure you can write it. Maybe just start with four lines or even
one line and go from there. You could do it a bit at a time."
-=-=-=-
I would have been delighted to write out my child's poem. Is it about the *writing* or about the love of poetry?
-=-=-=-=-
"You don't have to copy it out if you don't want to," I said. "But I don't
want to copy it out for you. You could go and do something different if you
want."
I then continued to copy out my poem (which was long) and even got to do a
second one.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So it was about what *you* wanted to do?
You could have written out both. You wrote down two anyway. You just *chose* to not help her? Why?
What was your motivation?
-=-=-=-=-
I asked her a little later how she felt about the writing and she said, "I
don't like w
riting much and I don't have much confidence."
--=-==-=-=-
You could have helped her write AND have confidence.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole page of words
down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago) I knew
she could write.
-=-=-=-
It's not about whether she *could*. I think it should have been about enjoying poetry.
*I* can *do* lots of things, but sometimes I want help or company while doing them. Your daughter got neither of those.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Strewing is setting out cool things---both physically and figuratively---that your children might enjoy.
In this instance, I'd say it would mean buying/borrowing lots of books on poetry, reading poetry aloud, having lots of paper and writing implements for writing your own poems, maybe learning how to bind your own books for her collection of poems, playing with haiku and iambic pentameter, rhyming, etc.
Helping is giving assistance when your child asks. Period.
I don't know what "over-functioning" could possibly be. <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-
Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
achieve things in life? She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
things. But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were20too hard.... perhaps
I'm answering my own question.
-=-=-=-=-
Uh huh.
-=-=-=-=-
Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff).
-=-=-=-=-
Did you have options when you were a child? Did you know whether you had options as a child?
My children KNOW that they have many, many options. We try to make that very, very clear. We discuss parenting styles and learning styles. Ben and I try to be very accepting of Who They Are Now, so we can be the best parents we can be for them. We question our parenting a LOT----and ask the boys to question us too. If things aren't working as well as we'd (all) like them to, we discuss what changes we can make *as a family* to make things better.
Homeschooling was illegal in SC when I was in school---so not an option. I was spanked regularly as a young child (until 11 or 12 for sure---maybe 13). No option. I didn't even know anyone who wasn't spanked until I was ten. THAT was eye-opening for me! So as a child, I was clueless that there was another way. But as an adult, I now resent that my parents were so "tool-less" as to spank me. I could resent that they didn't choose to homeschool me, but it wasn't an option, so I'm cool with that. But I know how
much more I *could* have done had I been homeschooled.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So the unschooled teenagers who
seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
-=-=-=-
Do you really think that inner motivation comes from having others make you do things?
Do you understand how INNER motivation actually works?
My boys have plenty of inner motivation. They may not be motivated to do things *I* want them to do, but that's not what inner motivation is about. They often do things *for* me, but it's not because I make them; it's because they *want* to do kind things for me. That's what's been modeled for them: we do things for others out of kindness/generosity/empathy, NOT obligation/duty/guilt.
I think you might want to explore motivation. Have you read Alfie Kohn's book, Punished by Rewards?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." ~Gandhi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: The Patersons <tuipiri@...>
Our homeschool group is having a poetry and pizza day tomorrow. My 9 yo
daughter and I thought it was last week and got prepared for it then. She
said to me, "Come on, let's write out our poems," and I (surprised that she
would suggest it) agreed. We started and then looked at the calendar and
went, "Oh, no, it's next week" so we put the stuff away.
-=-=-=-=-
What does the calendar have to do with writing poetry?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm writing out my own poem," I said. "I don't really want to write yours
out too. I'm sure you can write it. Maybe just start with four lines or even
one line and go from there. You could do it a bit at a time."
-=-=-=-
I would have been delighted to write out my child's poem. Is it about the *writing* or about the love of poetry?
-=-=-=-=-
"You don't have to copy it out if you don't want to," I said. "But I don't
want to copy it out for you. You could go and do something different if you
want."
I then continued to copy out my poem (which was long) and even got to do a
second one.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So it was about what *you* wanted to do?
You could have written out both. You wrote down two anyway. You just *chose* to not help her? Why?
What was your motivation?
-=-=-=-=-
I asked her a little later how she felt about the writing and she said, "I
don't like w
riting much and I don't have much confidence."
--=-==-=-=-
You could have helped her write AND have confidence.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole page of words
down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago) I knew
she could write.
-=-=-=-
It's not about whether she *could*. I think it should have been about enjoying poetry.
*I* can *do* lots of things, but sometimes I want help or company while doing them. Your daughter got neither of those.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Strewing is setting out cool things---both physically and figuratively---that your children might enjoy.
In this instance, I'd say it would mean buying/borrowing lots of books on poetry, reading poetry aloud, having lots of paper and writing implements for writing your own poems, maybe learning how to bind your own books for her collection of poems, playing with haiku and iambic pentameter, rhyming, etc.
Helping is giving assistance when your child asks. Period.
I don't know what "over-functioning" could possibly be. <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-
Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
achieve things in life? She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
things. But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were20too hard.... perhaps
I'm answering my own question.
-=-=-=-=-
Uh huh.
-=-=-=-=-
Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff).
-=-=-=-=-
Did you have options when you were a child? Did you know whether you had options as a child?
My children KNOW that they have many, many options. We try to make that very, very clear. We discuss parenting styles and learning styles. Ben and I try to be very accepting of Who They Are Now, so we can be the best parents we can be for them. We question our parenting a LOT----and ask the boys to question us too. If things aren't working as well as we'd (all) like them to, we discuss what changes we can make *as a family* to make things better.
Homeschooling was illegal in SC when I was in school---so not an option. I was spanked regularly as a young child (until 11 or 12 for sure---maybe 13). No option. I didn't even know anyone who wasn't spanked until I was ten. THAT was eye-opening for me! So as a child, I was clueless that there was another way. But as an adult, I now resent that my parents were so "tool-less" as to spank me. I could resent that they didn't choose to homeschool me, but it wasn't an option, so I'm cool with that. But I know how
much more I *could* have done had I been homeschooled.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So the unschooled teenagers who
seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
-=-=-=-
Do you really think that inner motivation comes from having others make you do things?
Do you understand how INNER motivation actually works?
My boys have plenty of inner motivation. They may not be motivated to do things *I* want them to do, but that's not what inner motivation is about. They often do things *for* me, but it's not because I make them; it's because they *want* to do kind things for me. That's what's been modeled for them: we do things for others out of kindness/generosity/empathy, NOT obligation/duty/guilt.
I think you might want to explore motivation. Have you read Alfie Kohn's book, Punished by Rewards?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." ~Gandhi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/24/2009 1:18 AM, The Patersons wrote:
I'm a little confused - did you offer to play a game and she agreed and
then you switched it to copying out a poem? That's not playing a game.
I would have definitely agreed to copy the poem for her. I had a little
shocked feeling when I read that you refused her request and did your
own and then another one. I'd have agreed to do hers and we'd have had a
warm together bit of time while I did it. My daughter would probably
have kind of snuggled up to me while I wrote. I might have said, "Do you
want blue or black ink or maybe some other color? Do you want me to
write on every other line or on every line? Should I indent here? In
other words, I would have done the physical writing, but it would
probably have been a team effort.
> What's the difference between strewing/helping/over-functioning?
>
Strewing is offering what you think she might find fun and interesting.
It can be physical things or experiences.
Helping is supporting what she is interested in. It means doing some
parts of things so that she can do the parts she wants to do. Like you
could help her participate in the poetry event by copying out the poem
she'd selected.
Over-functioning? No idea what you mean by that.
>
>
> Can I really trust that this kid is going to get herself over her humps to
> achieve things in life?
Do you have something in mind she needs to achieve? I have a feeling you
need to put more focus on now - the future will be better if now is
better. What I want my kids to achieve is to have really good
relationships. I want them to expect their relationships to be warm and
kind and generous and caring. If that's what they live with, that's what
they'll expect to live with in the future, too.
> She doesn't seem very self-motivated in a lot of
> things. But having written that, she has gotten herself through every book
> in the Harry Potter series - even when the words were too hard.... perhaps
> I'm answering my own question.
>
Please don't even notice weaknesses. Just ignore them. You'll do her
more good. Our learning builds on what we already know - we build
strengths upon strengths. Focus on her strengths and help her do what
she wants to do and she'll learn and grow.
>
>
> Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was very very happy
> with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got into my 30s
> that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lot to do
> with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff). So the unschooled teenagers who
> seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Will they get
> into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything, and now I
> have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?
>
>
Well - my three young adult children have tremendous inner motivation to
get on with their lives, so I don't think THAT is going to be what they
suddenly start saying to themselves.
If nobody is making them do things, then they are developing their inner
motivation. If someone is making them do things, then that unused inner
motivation can become a very shrunken vestigial part of themselves.
-pam
Erin
<<In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:
I'm a little confused - did you offer to play a game and she agreed and
then you switched it to copying out a poem? That's not playing a game.>>
Her dd shook her head "no" about the game. She didn't want to play a
game, so mom continued making suggestions...and thought of the poem.
wrote:
I'm a little confused - did you offer to play a game and she agreed and
then you switched it to copying out a poem? That's not playing a game.>>
Her dd shook her head "no" about the game. She didn't want to play a
game, so mom continued making suggestions...and thought of the poem.
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/24/2009 12:56 PM, Erin wrote:
This is another one of those cultural things that my husband and i had
to learn. In his country, yes and no both involve the head moving
vertically, not horizontally. If the chin first moves up, it is yes and
if the chin moves down, it means no.
-pam
> <<[email protected], Pam Sorooshian<pamsoroosh@...>I wasn't sure if a head shake meant yes or no.
> wrote:
> I'm a little confused - did you offer to play a game and she agreed and
> then you switched it to copying out a poem? That's not playing a game.>>
>
> Her dd shook her head "no" about the game. She didn't want to play a
> game, so mom continued making suggestions...and thought of the poem.
>
>
>
This is another one of those cultural things that my husband and i had
to learn. In his country, yes and no both involve the head moving
vertically, not horizontally. If the chin first moves up, it is yes and
if the chin moves down, it means no.
-pam
N CONFER
I don't get it.This doesn't sound like writing a poem. This sounds like copying. What was the point of the group?
Nance
Re: Having doubts today
Posted by: "julie leonard"
brihanna@...
jaysca07
Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:25 am (PST)
***"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
She shook her head, and then just sat there.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nance
Re: Having doubts today
Posted by: "julie leonard"
brihanna@...
jaysca07
Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:25 am (PST)
***"My poem is too long. I can't do it." She said.
She shook her head, and then just sat there.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tara
Just wanted to throw in my experiences to complement the other great
responses you received.
in a private school), he didn't want to do anything too schoolish
until pretty recently. Not because he "lost" confidence but because
he never had any. He faced a lot of judgment in school and for awhile
afterward would still feel the echos of that in what he was doing. It
was this way with art, as well. He still heard the teachers words in
his head and now that he didn't "have to" do it, he avoided it. I did
the reading or writing or math for him for a long time. Now he's
comfortable doing it himself again with only occasional help from me.
it. My mom saw how much I disliked high school and neither one of us
saw the point in school-at-home. A lot of people just looked at me as
a high-school drop-out but my mom was very careful in telling me that
I owned my experiences and learning, that school "wasn't for
everyone", that I had the choice to do whatever I wanted when I so
chose. She empowered me, she reassured me. She made me feel like more
than just a "drop-out". I don't regret that for a moment. I know I
could have chosen differently. I don't regret my choice or see her as
being responsible for it.
That being said, she raised me with conventional parenting - control,
punishments/spanking, fighting between us. Those things are the
things that hurt our relationship, the things I wish were different.
Not the trust, the support, the empowerment. I'll never regret those.
They were the highlight of my childhood. :)
~Tara
http://theorganicsister.com
responses you received.
> Now, having seen from her notebook that she could put a whole pageof words
> down (it was an old notebook from school - she quit 12 months ago)I knew
> she could write. I thought it was about getting overthat 'starting' hump
> that I sometimes face when I set out on a project. Has she lostconfidence
> because she hasn't written in so long?For my DS (he's 9 and has been unschooling for 2 years after 2.5 yrs
in a private school), he didn't want to do anything too schoolish
until pretty recently. Not because he "lost" confidence but because
he never had any. He faced a lot of judgment in school and for awhile
afterward would still feel the echos of that in what he was doing. It
was this way with art, as well. He still heard the teachers words in
his head and now that he didn't "have to" do it, he avoided it. I did
the reading or writing or math for him for a long time. Now he's
comfortable doing it himself again with only occasional help from me.
> Next question: As a teen/young adult I would have said I was veryvery happy
> with the way I was brought up and educated. It's only as I got intomy 30s
> that I got a lot of depression and realised my upbringing had a lotto do
> with it (strict, 'good child' type stuff). So the unschooledteenagers who
> seem happy at camps and things... aren't they just like me? Willthey get
> into their 30s and go, "Man, my parents never made me do anything,and now I
> have no inner motivation to get on with my life..?" Crazy question?I was unschooled in high school, although we didn't have a name for
it. My mom saw how much I disliked high school and neither one of us
saw the point in school-at-home. A lot of people just looked at me as
a high-school drop-out but my mom was very careful in telling me that
I owned my experiences and learning, that school "wasn't for
everyone", that I had the choice to do whatever I wanted when I so
chose. She empowered me, she reassured me. She made me feel like more
than just a "drop-out". I don't regret that for a moment. I know I
could have chosen differently. I don't regret my choice or see her as
being responsible for it.
That being said, she raised me with conventional parenting - control,
punishments/spanking, fighting between us. Those things are the
things that hurt our relationship, the things I wish were different.
Not the trust, the support, the empowerment. I'll never regret those.
They were the highlight of my childhood. :)
~Tara
http://theorganicsister.com