Teaching son about money? ugh.
aenclade
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
Heather & Markus Schleidt
I guess on this one I might be the odd-ball out, but this is my perspective. If I had already paid for it to be fixed than I would consider that a "freebie" and would tell him the next time it breaks down he will have to pay for it or it won't get fixed and then I would let him continue to hang with his friends. If you paid for the car to be fixed and then tell him after the fact that he has to pay it back, I would consider that unfair (not that life is always fair).
If it were me and I wanted my son to learn the value of having things and fixing them, etc etc, I would not have fixed it in the first place and would have let him figure out how to get places (bus, ride with friends, get a job to pay for it). But in fairness, if I felt it was more important that he have the car to get where ever it is he needs to get to than I would use this as an opportunity to explain how financially you will get involved the next time it happens and hold yourself to it if it breaks down. That is real-life learning. Of course, you should be a guide for him and explain some things and stick to them, but believe me he will learn.
Just because you unschool doesn't mean that he should not have some financial responsibilities if he is going to be entrusted at that age with a $10,000 (or whatever) vehicle. Having fun and hanging out with friends can still occur even if he needs to get a part-time job. At least he can save a few dollars a week in case of an emergency or another breakdown and should still have plenty of time to have fun and be a kid.
To: [email protected]: aenclade@...: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:45:28 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Teaching son about money? ugh.
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to valuemoney in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car brokedown: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe caris top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should beworking and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging withfriends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. Heleft public high school a little over a year ago and has beende-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classesof his interest at our community college.Any advice, help, experiences?This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives tohelp us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If it were me and I wanted my son to learn the value of having things and fixing them, etc etc, I would not have fixed it in the first place and would have let him figure out how to get places (bus, ride with friends, get a job to pay for it). But in fairness, if I felt it was more important that he have the car to get where ever it is he needs to get to than I would use this as an opportunity to explain how financially you will get involved the next time it happens and hold yourself to it if it breaks down. That is real-life learning. Of course, you should be a guide for him and explain some things and stick to them, but believe me he will learn.
Just because you unschool doesn't mean that he should not have some financial responsibilities if he is going to be entrusted at that age with a $10,000 (or whatever) vehicle. Having fun and hanging out with friends can still occur even if he needs to get a part-time job. At least he can save a few dollars a week in case of an emergency or another breakdown and should still have plenty of time to have fun and be a kid.
To: [email protected]: aenclade@...: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:45:28 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Teaching son about money? ugh.
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to valuemoney in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car brokedown: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe caris top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should beworking and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging withfriends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. Heleft public high school a little over a year ago and has beende-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classesof his interest at our community college.Any advice, help, experiences?This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives tohelp us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
_________________________________________________________________
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http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
~~I guess on this one I might be the odd-ball out, but this is my perspective. If I had already paid for it to be fixed than I would consider that a "freebie" and would tell him the next time it breaks down he will have to pay for it or it won't get fixed and then I would let him continue to hang with his friends. If you paid for the car to be fixed and then tell him after the fact that he has to pay it back, I would consider that unfair (not that life is always fair).~~
I have to comment on this. I don't have kids old enough yet to own cars, but they have stuff that has gotten broken, that's for sure. I consider it my job to partner with them and discover *together* how to repair/replace it. Telling them they have one strike that you'll pay for and then they're out and on their own isn't respectful in my opinion. And it's taking the easy way out isn't it?? Mindful parenting takes alot more effort in the moment, but is so worth it when we put the relationship first and we and our kids can share a deep trust. I really want my kids to know 100% that it's really important to me to help them get what they want!
~~If it were me and I wanted my son to learn the value of having things and fixing them, etc etc, I would not have fixed it in the first place and would have let him figure out how to get places (bus, ride with friends, get a job to pay for it). But in fairness, if I felt it was more important that he have the car to get where ever it is he needs to get to than I would use this as an opportunity to explain how financially you will get involved the next time it happens and hold yourself to it if it breaks down. That is real-life learning. Of course, you should be a guide for him and explain some things and stick to them, but believe me he will learn.~~
How do you think your husband would feel if you decided to take this approach? Mine would be resentful as hell. It really helps me when I'm wondering how to approach a situation/discussion/whatever with my child, to imagine how I or another adult would feel, and proceed accordingly. Real-life learning isn't punishment. Real-life learning is what happens *inspite* of you doing the best you can to partner and assist and guide and inform and trust. I really cringe at the whole notion of 'be firm and they will learn'. It really is old school to believe that hard knocks promote learning. Yuck.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have to comment on this. I don't have kids old enough yet to own cars, but they have stuff that has gotten broken, that's for sure. I consider it my job to partner with them and discover *together* how to repair/replace it. Telling them they have one strike that you'll pay for and then they're out and on their own isn't respectful in my opinion. And it's taking the easy way out isn't it?? Mindful parenting takes alot more effort in the moment, but is so worth it when we put the relationship first and we and our kids can share a deep trust. I really want my kids to know 100% that it's really important to me to help them get what they want!
~~If it were me and I wanted my son to learn the value of having things and fixing them, etc etc, I would not have fixed it in the first place and would have let him figure out how to get places (bus, ride with friends, get a job to pay for it). But in fairness, if I felt it was more important that he have the car to get where ever it is he needs to get to than I would use this as an opportunity to explain how financially you will get involved the next time it happens and hold yourself to it if it breaks down. That is real-life learning. Of course, you should be a guide for him and explain some things and stick to them, but believe me he will learn.~~
How do you think your husband would feel if you decided to take this approach? Mine would be resentful as hell. It really helps me when I'm wondering how to approach a situation/discussion/whatever with my child, to imagine how I or another adult would feel, and proceed accordingly. Real-life learning isn't punishment. Real-life learning is what happens *inspite* of you doing the best you can to partner and assist and guide and inform and trust. I really cringe at the whole notion of 'be firm and they will learn'. It really is old school to believe that hard knocks promote learning. Yuck.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 22, 2009, at 2:45 PM, aenclade wrote:
without realizing things need paid for by money that's earned.
He will come to a more profound understanding -- what it feels like
for your spending to depend on your earning -- when he leaves home
and lives on his own. It isn't brain surgery! ;-)
What he has right now, what he will find it hard to have in the
future, is the freedom to just be.
There's a pervasive idea in society that we're all lazy and we need
trained to be not lazy. I think more true is that we all want to do
what we love but are pressured into doing what others think is best
for us. And that makes us look lazy when we don't do what others want
us to.
The problem is that when were pressured to do what others want, what
we choose to do with our free time is depressurize. And that isn't
the same thing as freely choosing what we love. He won't want to hang
with friends as a career choice ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to valueIt's impossible he doesn't know. He can't have grown up for 16+ years
> money in relationship to having and buying things.
without realizing things need paid for by money that's earned.
He will come to a more profound understanding -- what it feels like
for your spending to depend on your earning -- when he leaves home
and lives on his own. It isn't brain surgery! ;-)
What he has right now, what he will find it hard to have in the
future, is the freedom to just be.
There's a pervasive idea in society that we're all lazy and we need
trained to be not lazy. I think more true is that we all want to do
what we love but are pressured into doing what others think is best
for us. And that makes us look lazy when we don't do what others want
us to.
The problem is that when were pressured to do what others want, what
we choose to do with our free time is depressurize. And that isn't
the same thing as freely choosing what we love. He won't want to hang
with friends as a career choice ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nance Confer
3 weeks? He's talking about your son getting a job (good luck) and paying something off in 3 weeks?
Makes me wonder what sort of money pressures Dad is feeling.
Nance
8a.
Teaching son about money? ugh.
Posted by: "aenclade" aenclade@... aenclade
Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:25 pm (PST)
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Makes me wonder what sort of money pressures Dad is feeling.
Nance
8a.
Teaching son about money? ugh.
Posted by: "aenclade" aenclade@... aenclade
Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:25 pm (PST)
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
He won't want to hang with friends as a career choice ;-)
-=-=-=
I think some of Elvis' friends did. <BWG>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
He won't want to hang with friends as a career choice ;-)
-=-=-=
I think some of Elvis' friends did. <BWG>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
We don't get to decide what someone else's "top priority" is.
You made his safety *your* top priority. That's great. Commendable.
But you don't get to tell him what *his* top priority is.
You may *think* that what you're *teaching* is responsibility. What he's *learning* may be something completely different. What he'd learn is that Might makes Right: that bigger people in authority have power over him. Is that your goal?
*My* goal would be that his safety is ALL-important. Everything else is secondary.
How much money are we talking about? What value do you place on safety?
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: aenclade <aenclade@...>
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You made his safety *your* top priority. That's great. Commendable.
But you don't get to tell him what *his* top priority is.
You may *think* that what you're *teaching* is responsibility. What he's *learning* may be something completely different. What he'd learn is that Might makes Right: that bigger people in authority have power over him. Is that your goal?
*My* goal would be that his safety is ALL-important. Everything else is secondary.
How much money are we talking about? What value do you place on safety?
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: aenclade <aenclade@...>
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 23, 2009, at 7:44 AM, Kelly Lovejoy wrote:
Of course her son wasn't either until recently. But the kids who have
the freedom to do "nothing" throughout childhood don't choose to do
nothing. Humans are curious creatures. Making a career of being an
Elvis friend is probably more akin to escaping into video games. ;-)
If we don't create a life they want to escape from, there's no reason
to escape! :-)
Being pressured into a job because Dad wants him to learn a lesson
about finances feels like something I'd want to escape from ;-)
Unfortunately the artificial scenario where Dad creates the need for
the son to pay for his car repairs looks a lot like the situation
where a family can't afford to so the son gets a job. The parents in
that case would be willing to help but couldn't. The son would see
getting a job as an option to do something he wanted to.
But the two scenarios feel totally different and the lessons that are
learned aren't the same at all. One feels like denial and control in
a land of plenty. The second feels like free choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think some of Elvis' friends did. <BWG>Ah, yes, but were they unschooled? ;-)
Of course her son wasn't either until recently. But the kids who have
the freedom to do "nothing" throughout childhood don't choose to do
nothing. Humans are curious creatures. Making a career of being an
Elvis friend is probably more akin to escaping into video games. ;-)
If we don't create a life they want to escape from, there's no reason
to escape! :-)
Being pressured into a job because Dad wants him to learn a lesson
about finances feels like something I'd want to escape from ;-)
Unfortunately the artificial scenario where Dad creates the need for
the son to pay for his car repairs looks a lot like the situation
where a family can't afford to so the son gets a job. The parents in
that case would be willing to help but couldn't. The son would see
getting a job as an option to do something he wanted to.
But the two scenarios feel totally different and the lessons that are
learned aren't the same at all. One feels like denial and control in
a land of plenty. The second feels like free choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
We don't get to decide what someone else's "top priority" should be.
*You* decided that his safety was *your* top priority.
But he doesn't have to agree with you on what *his* is. And you don't get to decide that *for* him.
What you'd be *teaching* by forcing him to comply is not necessarily the lesson he would *learn*. He might *learn* that Might makes Right---that bigger people in authority have power over him.
Is that your goal?
Mine would be that his safety is ALL-important---there is NOTHING *more* important.
How much money are we talking about? What value do you place on safety?
Our deal with Cameron was that, until he had a job & steady income, we would take care of his car. It was important for him to have wheels, but MORE important was our need to know he was safe. When he got a job, he saved, sold the clunker, and bought his own (safer) car. He's very conscientious about caring for "Genny," but we're still available if he occasionally needs our help. Again, safety *first*.
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: aenclade <aenclade@...>
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hangi
ng with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*You* decided that his safety was *your* top priority.
But he doesn't have to agree with you on what *his* is. And you don't get to decide that *for* him.
What you'd be *teaching* by forcing him to comply is not necessarily the lesson he would *learn*. He might *learn* that Might makes Right---that bigger people in authority have power over him.
Is that your goal?
Mine would be that his safety is ALL-important---there is NOTHING *more* important.
How much money are we talking about? What value do you place on safety?
Our deal with Cameron was that, until he had a job & steady income, we would take care of his car. It was important for him to have wheels, but MORE important was our need to know he was safe. When he got a job, he saved, sold the clunker, and bought his own (safer) car. He's very conscientious about caring for "Genny," but we're still available if he occasionally needs our help. Again, safety *first*.
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: aenclade <aenclade@...>
Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
working and making money to help pay for it instead of hangi
ng with
friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
of his interest at our community college.
Any advice, help, experiences?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather & Markus Schleidt
Jodi,
I know the post was meant for the other lady, but I have to say I appreciate your comments about my post, simply because I am on this message board to learn a new way of thinking and parenting. I, too, have younger children and my fears are that they will feel entitled and act like many of the kids in the area around us. We live in a part of Ohio where the average income is triple digits (not us, others) and most of my friends send their kids to $10,000/child private schools. I see these kids getting everything they want, so I want to make sure I don't act like their parents.
What you said - "Mindful parenting takes alot more effort in the moment, but is so worth it when we put the relationship first and we and our kids can share a deep trust. I really want my kids to know 100% that it's really important to me to help them get what they want!" makes a lot of sense to me after reading that and I am trying to listen and learn here. Being an effective parent is not the same as being an efficient parent. Thanks for bringing these thoughts to my attention. I'm still learning!!
To: [email protected]: jodibezzola@...: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:40:32 -0800Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Teaching son about money? ugh.
~~I guess on this one I might be the odd-ball out, but this is my perspective. If I had already paid for it to be fixed than I would consider that a "freebie" and would tell him the next time it breaks down he will have to pay for it or it won't get fixed and then I would let him continue to hang with his friends. If you paid for the car to be fixed and then tell him after the fact that he has to pay it back, I would consider that unfair (not that life is always fair).~~ I have to comment on this. I don't have kids old enough yet to own cars, but they have stuff that has gotten broken, that's for sure. I consider it my job to partner with them and discover *together* how to repair/replace it. Telling them they have one strike that you'll pay for and then they're out and on their own isn't respectful in my opinion. And it's taking the easy way out isn't it?? Mindful parenting takes alot more effort in the moment, but is so worth it when we put the relationship first and we and our kids can share a deep trust. I really want my kids to know 100% that it's really important to me to help them get what they want!~~If it were me and I wanted my son to learn the value of having things and fixing them, etc etc, I would not have fixed it in the first place and would have let him figure out how to get places (bus, ride with friends, get a job to pay for it). But in fairness, if I felt it was more important that he have the car to get where ever it is he needs to get to than I would use this as an opportunity to explain how financially you will get involved the next time it happens and hold yourself to it if it breaks down. That is real-life learning. Of course, you should be a guide for him and explain some things and stick to them, but believe me he will learn.~~ How do you think your husband would feel if you decided to take this approach? Mine would be resentful as hell. It really helps me when I'm wondering how to approach a situation/discussion/whatever with my child, to imagine how I or another adult would feel, and proceed accordingly. Real-life learning isn't punishment. Real-life learning is what happens *inspite* of you doing the best you can to partner and assist and guide and inform and trust. I really cringe at the whole notion of 'be firm and they will learn'. It really is old school to believe that hard knocks promote learning. Yuck. Jodi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
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http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know the post was meant for the other lady, but I have to say I appreciate your comments about my post, simply because I am on this message board to learn a new way of thinking and parenting. I, too, have younger children and my fears are that they will feel entitled and act like many of the kids in the area around us. We live in a part of Ohio where the average income is triple digits (not us, others) and most of my friends send their kids to $10,000/child private schools. I see these kids getting everything they want, so I want to make sure I don't act like their parents.
What you said - "Mindful parenting takes alot more effort in the moment, but is so worth it when we put the relationship first and we and our kids can share a deep trust. I really want my kids to know 100% that it's really important to me to help them get what they want!" makes a lot of sense to me after reading that and I am trying to listen and learn here. Being an effective parent is not the same as being an efficient parent. Thanks for bringing these thoughts to my attention. I'm still learning!!
To: [email protected]: jodibezzola@...: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:40:32 -0800Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Teaching son about money? ugh.
~~I guess on this one I might be the odd-ball out, but this is my perspective. If I had already paid for it to be fixed than I would consider that a "freebie" and would tell him the next time it breaks down he will have to pay for it or it won't get fixed and then I would let him continue to hang with his friends. If you paid for the car to be fixed and then tell him after the fact that he has to pay it back, I would consider that unfair (not that life is always fair).~~ I have to comment on this. I don't have kids old enough yet to own cars, but they have stuff that has gotten broken, that's for sure. I consider it my job to partner with them and discover *together* how to repair/replace it. Telling them they have one strike that you'll pay for and then they're out and on their own isn't respectful in my opinion. And it's taking the easy way out isn't it?? Mindful parenting takes alot more effort in the moment, but is so worth it when we put the relationship first and we and our kids can share a deep trust. I really want my kids to know 100% that it's really important to me to help them get what they want!~~If it were me and I wanted my son to learn the value of having things and fixing them, etc etc, I would not have fixed it in the first place and would have let him figure out how to get places (bus, ride with friends, get a job to pay for it). But in fairness, if I felt it was more important that he have the car to get where ever it is he needs to get to than I would use this as an opportunity to explain how financially you will get involved the next time it happens and hold yourself to it if it breaks down. That is real-life learning. Of course, you should be a guide for him and explain some things and stick to them, but believe me he will learn.~~ How do you think your husband would feel if you decided to take this approach? Mine would be resentful as hell. It really helps me when I'm wondering how to approach a situation/discussion/whatever with my child, to imagine how I or another adult would feel, and proceed accordingly. Real-life learning isn't punishment. Real-life learning is what happens *inspite* of you doing the best you can to partner and assist and guide and inform and trust. I really cringe at the whole notion of 'be firm and they will learn'. It really is old school to believe that hard knocks promote learning. Yuck. Jodi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
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http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "aenclade" <aenclade@...>
wrote:
when my daughter was deschooling was I was giving her a gift of time
to get to know herself. When she left school at 13 and spent a good
9 months doing a lot of sleeping and then another year fliting from
this to that it was hard to see sometimes the value in it. I felt
very strongly though that in the long run the discoveries she made
about herself and figuring out what she thought and felt and
believed would serve her well. Especially for older unschoolers I
think having that time to just be is really important.
It's been two years now since Lizzy left school and one of the
things I like the most about her is I know whatever she does, even
if I don't agree with it, she is doing it because she wants to.
She's not one to be influenced by peer pressure. She WILL do what
she wants and WILL NOT do what she doesn't.
About money in particular though. Lizzy has worked for money since
she was 12 and currently brings home about $100 a week and gets paid
every 4-6 weeks so she's dealing with big chunks of money. I am not
great with money and big surprise neither is she. She has figured
out that if she would rather spend all her money at once on
something big than spend it here and there and feel like she has
nothing. I wish I could help her be better with money but am
realistic that I haven't given her the best role model her whole
life. I focus more on doing better with our family money than
giving her a hard time about how she spend her money.
I suprised her the other day. She wants to take a photography class
so she wanted a good camera. I took her to Walmart and she went
straight to the camera she wanted and I said ok looks good. She was
just like hey aren't you going to ask me if I'm sure that's what I
want? I said Well it looks like you have already thought about it
and it's your money so get what you want. I empowered my
daughter : ) Go me!
Kelly
wrote:
>and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
> left public high school a little over a year ago and has beenclasses
> de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple
> of his interest at our community college.My thought on this one isn't really about the money. My attitude
> Any advice, help, experiences?
>
when my daughter was deschooling was I was giving her a gift of time
to get to know herself. When she left school at 13 and spent a good
9 months doing a lot of sleeping and then another year fliting from
this to that it was hard to see sometimes the value in it. I felt
very strongly though that in the long run the discoveries she made
about herself and figuring out what she thought and felt and
believed would serve her well. Especially for older unschoolers I
think having that time to just be is really important.
It's been two years now since Lizzy left school and one of the
things I like the most about her is I know whatever she does, even
if I don't agree with it, she is doing it because she wants to.
She's not one to be influenced by peer pressure. She WILL do what
she wants and WILL NOT do what she doesn't.
About money in particular though. Lizzy has worked for money since
she was 12 and currently brings home about $100 a week and gets paid
every 4-6 weeks so she's dealing with big chunks of money. I am not
great with money and big surprise neither is she. She has figured
out that if she would rather spend all her money at once on
something big than spend it here and there and feel like she has
nothing. I wish I could help her be better with money but am
realistic that I haven't given her the best role model her whole
life. I focus more on doing better with our family money than
giving her a hard time about how she spend her money.
I suprised her the other day. She wants to take a photography class
so she wanted a good camera. I took her to Walmart and she went
straight to the camera she wanted and I said ok looks good. She was
just like hey aren't you going to ask me if I'm sure that's what I
want? I said Well it looks like you have already thought about it
and it's your money so get what you want. I empowered my
daughter : ) Go me!
Kelly
carenkh
I have found it really, really helpful in our unschooling journey to
drop ANY ideas about what I believe the boys *should* learn. I have
grown (and let go, and wondered, and grown, and let go some more) to a
place where I *know* when they have a NEED to learn something, they
will. I can drop any agenda I have about what *I* believe constitutes
"what they need to know".
This has led to so MUCH freedom and joy, and a greater ability to BE
*with* my guys, fully present.
This doesn't mean I don't have input, or ideas. But I give those ideas
freely, without expectations.
Wow, I love unschooling.
Caren
drop ANY ideas about what I believe the boys *should* learn. I have
grown (and let go, and wondered, and grown, and let go some more) to a
place where I *know* when they have a NEED to learn something, they
will. I can drop any agenda I have about what *I* believe constitutes
"what they need to know".
This has led to so MUCH freedom and joy, and a greater ability to BE
*with* my guys, fully present.
This doesn't mean I don't have input, or ideas. But I give those ideas
freely, without expectations.
Wow, I love unschooling.
Caren
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 23, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Heather & Markus Schleidt wrote:
that they do NOT get all they want.
Yes, they get material things and classes and all that - but they
don't get the full support and attention and connection with their
parents that they crave. They need their parents TIME - lots and lots
of it, a superabundance of it.
-pam
> I see these kids getting everything they want, so I want to makeIt isn't that the kids get all they want that is the problem, it is
> sure I don't act like their parents.
that they do NOT get all they want.
Yes, they get material things and classes and all that - but they
don't get the full support and attention and connection with their
parents that they crave. They need their parents TIME - lots and lots
of it, a superabundance of it.
-pam
osani
--- In [email protected], "aenclade" <aenclade@...> wrote:
When we were looking for cars, we agreed on several things, one of
which was that he'd participate in paying for unexpected maintenance.
We didn't agree on a set amount or a set percentage, but it was clear
that he'd be responsible at some level...just as he is responsible for
making part of the monthly payments. Instead of coming up with a
number and then leaving the car unfixed until he had the money, we
decided to pay for it and then figure out what would be fair.
My wife spoke with him and said that she hoped he would participate in
some way (whether it was $20 or $1000) and recognize that the $2,500
we needed to pay for the repairs was a lot of money for us right now.
Three weeks is not a lot of time to make money...that's when he'll be
taking four classes at community college and neither my wife nor I
want him focused on making money while he's taking classes.
One of my questions is about urgency and priority. If he had the
opportunity to go snowboarding with friends or buy something he really
wanted, but he needed to make $500 or $1,000, for example, over the
next few weeks, I believe he'd bust his butt to try to make the money.
It would be his priority, above hanging out with friends, staying up
late and sleeping in, etc. He'd be looking for as many opportunities
as possible. Even though I believe he'd truly like to contribute to
the car repair cost, I don't feel that the situation with the car is
urgent for him...it's certainly not his top priority.
Neither my wife nor his biological father have modeled 'good'
financial skills for him...I am trying to understand and embrace
unschooling principles, but know that I fall short in many ways. I'm
aware that there's a part of me that wants to 'teach' him, but I
wonder if part of modeling is being firm about holding to agreements.
I know that I want him to feel that the paying for the car should be
more of a priority because it's something we agreed upon before we got
the car.
I feel a little bit like the bank, sending a letter, or calling, and
saying, 'hey, here's what you agreed to do...it's not personal...'
I'm leaning towards asking him to come up with a certain amount over
the next few weeks and helping him figure out how to do it.
Enough for now...I appreciate all the comments people have already
made and would appreciate any more that can help clarify.
>From the husband and step-father of the car owning young man:
> Help! My husband wants to "teach" our oldest son (16 1/2) how to value
> money in relationship to having and buying things. My son's car broke
> down: clutch, brakes, tires...we fixed it because of course a safe car
> is top priority but now hubby thinks our son's top priority should be
> working and making money to help pay for it instead of hanging with
> friends and enjoying his life before his classes start in 3 weeks. He
> left public high school a little over a year ago and has been
> de-schooling, sleeping alot and has started taking a couple classes
> of his interest at our community college.
> Any advice, help, experiences?
> This is a tough one for me...looking for unschooling perspectives to
> help us along! We also have 2 younger boys we are unschooling (3and5).
>
When we were looking for cars, we agreed on several things, one of
which was that he'd participate in paying for unexpected maintenance.
We didn't agree on a set amount or a set percentage, but it was clear
that he'd be responsible at some level...just as he is responsible for
making part of the monthly payments. Instead of coming up with a
number and then leaving the car unfixed until he had the money, we
decided to pay for it and then figure out what would be fair.
My wife spoke with him and said that she hoped he would participate in
some way (whether it was $20 or $1000) and recognize that the $2,500
we needed to pay for the repairs was a lot of money for us right now.
Three weeks is not a lot of time to make money...that's when he'll be
taking four classes at community college and neither my wife nor I
want him focused on making money while he's taking classes.
One of my questions is about urgency and priority. If he had the
opportunity to go snowboarding with friends or buy something he really
wanted, but he needed to make $500 or $1,000, for example, over the
next few weeks, I believe he'd bust his butt to try to make the money.
It would be his priority, above hanging out with friends, staying up
late and sleeping in, etc. He'd be looking for as many opportunities
as possible. Even though I believe he'd truly like to contribute to
the car repair cost, I don't feel that the situation with the car is
urgent for him...it's certainly not his top priority.
Neither my wife nor his biological father have modeled 'good'
financial skills for him...I am trying to understand and embrace
unschooling principles, but know that I fall short in many ways. I'm
aware that there's a part of me that wants to 'teach' him, but I
wonder if part of modeling is being firm about holding to agreements.
I know that I want him to feel that the paying for the car should be
more of a priority because it's something we agreed upon before we got
the car.
I feel a little bit like the bank, sending a letter, or calling, and
saying, 'hey, here's what you agreed to do...it's not personal...'
I'm leaning towards asking him to come up with a certain amount over
the next few weeks and helping him figure out how to do it.
Enough for now...I appreciate all the comments people have already
made and would appreciate any more that can help clarify.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 23, 2009, at 4:23 PM, osani wrote:
so that changes the situation.
Looking at it objectively I see several things.
One, it's looking like the puppy scenario that 10s of thousands of
parents go through. The child promises up and down they'll take care
of it without realizing what that reality feels like. They're making
a promise to do something they don't fully grasp and most of them
can't keep.
Two, if he didn't have a reliable source of income, it wasn't
reasonable to enter into the bargain to begin with. Agreeing to pay
for vague future unexpected maintenance I'm sure sounded fair to him,
but he didn't have a good grasp of how much that could be or have a
workable plan in place on how to get the money.
Three, now that he already has an operating car, there's little
incentive to work for the money. *This is just human nature.* And
it's the incentive pickle people find themselves in with credit
cards. It's much easier to motivate yourself to work to buy something
you want than to work to pay off a debt. With cash in hand and faced
with paying money owed on something owned that's losing it's new
luster and something new and desired, it's really really hard to pay
off the debt: basically hand over the money and receive nothing in
return. That's why most people should have debit cards instead of
credit! ;-)
Personally I'd chalk it up as a learning experience. The bargain
sounded good but it didn't have a good foundation. Talk to him about
that and recognize that it wasn't reasonable.
You shouldn't enter into a new agreement that he pay for repairs
unless he has a job.
And if he does have an income (you said he's paying the monthly
payment) then don't be vague about what percentages or what set
amount he needs to pay! Work it out up front. (Now that he knows what
a repair bill looks like, you have some concrete numbers to work
with. He'll know what 10% can feel like.) You wouldn't get a car loan
and agree you'd pay "something" that they'd disclose after the
fact! ;-) You'd need to know before hand whether the payment would
fit into your finances.
If he's going to use the car for school, and you want him to get to
school and not have to work, then you'd be meeting your own goal by
taking on paying for repairs.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When we were looking for cars, we agreed on several things, one ofIt didn't sound like there was an agreement to pay for repairs before
> which was that he'd participate in paying for unexpected maintenance.
> We didn't agree on a set amount or a set percentage, but it was clear
> that he'd be responsible at some level...just as he is responsible for
> making part of the monthly payments. Instead of coming up with a
> number and then leaving the car unfixed until he had the money, we
> decided to pay for it and then figure out what would be fair.
so that changes the situation.
Looking at it objectively I see several things.
One, it's looking like the puppy scenario that 10s of thousands of
parents go through. The child promises up and down they'll take care
of it without realizing what that reality feels like. They're making
a promise to do something they don't fully grasp and most of them
can't keep.
Two, if he didn't have a reliable source of income, it wasn't
reasonable to enter into the bargain to begin with. Agreeing to pay
for vague future unexpected maintenance I'm sure sounded fair to him,
but he didn't have a good grasp of how much that could be or have a
workable plan in place on how to get the money.
Three, now that he already has an operating car, there's little
incentive to work for the money. *This is just human nature.* And
it's the incentive pickle people find themselves in with credit
cards. It's much easier to motivate yourself to work to buy something
you want than to work to pay off a debt. With cash in hand and faced
with paying money owed on something owned that's losing it's new
luster and something new and desired, it's really really hard to pay
off the debt: basically hand over the money and receive nothing in
return. That's why most people should have debit cards instead of
credit! ;-)
Personally I'd chalk it up as a learning experience. The bargain
sounded good but it didn't have a good foundation. Talk to him about
that and recognize that it wasn't reasonable.
You shouldn't enter into a new agreement that he pay for repairs
unless he has a job.
And if he does have an income (you said he's paying the monthly
payment) then don't be vague about what percentages or what set
amount he needs to pay! Work it out up front. (Now that he knows what
a repair bill looks like, you have some concrete numbers to work
with. He'll know what 10% can feel like.) You wouldn't get a car loan
and agree you'd pay "something" that they'd disclose after the
fact! ;-) You'd need to know before hand whether the payment would
fit into your finances.
If he's going to use the car for school, and you want him to get to
school and not have to work, then you'd be meeting your own goal by
taking on paying for repairs.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "osani" <e@...> wrote:
adult, and I wouldn't expect it to work out with my kids, either.
Especially in a home where a kid has been in school and is used to
rules and trying to figure out how to get around them, its an open
invitation for the kid to do as little as possible to help out.
If I make any kind of open ended agreement with my kids, I do it with
the assumption that I'll probably end up doing it all - feeding the
new pet or paying for the new game or whatever. OTOH, I do make
really solid agreements with my teen, in particular. Its rare that he
doesn't follow through *because* he has the assurance, when he's
making the agreement, that "I don't think I can do that" or "I'm not
very good at that sort of thing" or just "Sorry, not interested" are
all accepable answers. That's a relationship that has built over
time, though. I wouldn't have expected it of him when he'd only been
out of school a year.
Have you dealt with adults who are like this in the workplace? You
end up banging your head against the wall because they'll cheat and
sneak and otherwise mess up when faced with a priority they don't
accept. Kids will do the same thing.
So how do unschoolers manage to "be on the same page" in terms of
priorities with our kids? Its a matter of building an atmosphere of
mutual support over time - starting with the parents doing virtually
all the supporting. When we bust Our butts to honor their priorities
we are modeling holding to agreements in a way that kids understand
on a direct, personal level. Supporting others' needs then becomes
something they value directly, and aspire to doing.
Think of modeling more in terms of imitation. If you are "holding
firm" then That's what you are modeling. When our kids reflect that
behavior directly back at us its called "being stubborn". Rememeber
back to the first time you heard your son cuss or mimic some other
less-than-lovely habit of yours? Same sort of thing.
Unfortunately now you're faced with a really crazy situation - You
agreed that "he'd be responsible at some level" without clarifying
that properly. Naturally, its not working so well for you, so you're
trying to Back Out of the Agreement. Oops.
I'm not saying you're stuck with what you have, but going in as The
Bank of Dad and saying "you must now come up with x amount of money
by y date" isn't going to model anything but how to be an a$$.
Instead, you have the opportunity to model being the better man,
swallowing your pride and saying: "Okay, I f'ed this up. Its all my
fault for not actually telling you what I really wanted. I'm sorry.
Can we renegotiate?" That's an important skill for anyone to learn at
any age. People even do that with banks and other creditors - and if
you go in early enough, they'll often work to renegotiate the loan.
Keep in mind, when you go to renegotiate, that he probably does want
to help you out on some level. Do as much as you can to help him help
you. Think of it in terms of the "mutual" part of mutual support -
how can y'all work together to find a solution that you're both more
comfortable with? It doesn't have to be perfect. The important part
Right Now, is that you work on communicating and problem solving
Toghether.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> When we were looking for cars, we agreed on several things, one ofmaintenance.
> which was that he'd participate in paying for unexpected
> We didn't agree on a set amount or a set percentage, but it wasclear
> that he'd be responsible at some level...I wouldn't enter into a financial agreement like that with another
adult, and I wouldn't expect it to work out with my kids, either.
Especially in a home where a kid has been in school and is used to
rules and trying to figure out how to get around them, its an open
invitation for the kid to do as little as possible to help out.
If I make any kind of open ended agreement with my kids, I do it with
the assumption that I'll probably end up doing it all - feeding the
new pet or paying for the new game or whatever. OTOH, I do make
really solid agreements with my teen, in particular. Its rare that he
doesn't follow through *because* he has the assurance, when he's
making the agreement, that "I don't think I can do that" or "I'm not
very good at that sort of thing" or just "Sorry, not interested" are
all accepable answers. That's a relationship that has built over
time, though. I wouldn't have expected it of him when he'd only been
out of school a year.
> One of my questions is about urgency and priority. If he had thereally
> opportunity to go snowboarding with friends or buy something he
> wanted, but he needed to make $500 or $1,000, for example, over themoney.
> next few weeks, I believe he'd bust his butt to try to make the
> It would be his priority, above hanging out with friends, staying upExactly! Its not his priority and you Can't Make it his priority.
> late and sleeping in, etc. He'd be looking for as many opportunities
> as possible. Even though I believe he'd truly like to contribute to
> the car repair cost, I don't feel that the situation with the car is
> urgent for him...it's certainly not his top priority.
Have you dealt with adults who are like this in the workplace? You
end up banging your head against the wall because they'll cheat and
sneak and otherwise mess up when faced with a priority they don't
accept. Kids will do the same thing.
So how do unschoolers manage to "be on the same page" in terms of
priorities with our kids? Its a matter of building an atmosphere of
mutual support over time - starting with the parents doing virtually
all the supporting. When we bust Our butts to honor their priorities
we are modeling holding to agreements in a way that kids understand
on a direct, personal level. Supporting others' needs then becomes
something they value directly, and aspire to doing.
>I'magreements.
> aware that there's a part of me that wants to 'teach' him, but I
> wonder if part of modeling is being firm about holding to
Think of modeling more in terms of imitation. If you are "holding
firm" then That's what you are modeling. When our kids reflect that
behavior directly back at us its called "being stubborn". Rememeber
back to the first time you heard your son cuss or mimic some other
less-than-lovely habit of yours? Same sort of thing.
Unfortunately now you're faced with a really crazy situation - You
agreed that "he'd be responsible at some level" without clarifying
that properly. Naturally, its not working so well for you, so you're
trying to Back Out of the Agreement. Oops.
I'm not saying you're stuck with what you have, but going in as The
Bank of Dad and saying "you must now come up with x amount of money
by y date" isn't going to model anything but how to be an a$$.
Instead, you have the opportunity to model being the better man,
swallowing your pride and saying: "Okay, I f'ed this up. Its all my
fault for not actually telling you what I really wanted. I'm sorry.
Can we renegotiate?" That's an important skill for anyone to learn at
any age. People even do that with banks and other creditors - and if
you go in early enough, they'll often work to renegotiate the loan.
Keep in mind, when you go to renegotiate, that he probably does want
to help you out on some level. Do as much as you can to help him help
you. Think of it in terms of the "mutual" part of mutual support -
how can y'all work together to find a solution that you're both more
comfortable with? It doesn't have to be perfect. The important part
Right Now, is that you work on communicating and problem solving
Toghether.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)