Re: [unschoolingbasics] College = bad
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/2004 6:50:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dana.tierney@... writes:
What I like about college is the
ability to meander through areas of knowledge. Much of that is
defeated if one takes the attitude that no, I can't take Native
American philosophy because I already have my elective for the year :)
Or whatever. But this is an attitude of the student, not necessarily
of the institution. I mean, the library is there. Nobody is going to
tell you you can only take out books that apply to your major.<<<<<<<
This can happen in an unschooling life as well. Libraries are
everywhere----every little town has a library---and inter-library loans. In life there is
no "major", so it really doesn't matter *what* books you check out.
who don't seem to know or care how to use language are the only
resource their children have for learning this. I think it's only fair
to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
available in areas which are not our strengths.<<<<<<
Only in families where "mom is the child's only teacher" would this be a
problem. Since you don't really understand unschooling, it's hard to comprehend
that children *are* so capable. My grammar is better than that of either of my
parents----so's my knowledge of unschooling and dogs and horses and bees and
swimming pools and Latin and German and Vienna. Where would I have gotten
this info if not for them? The world, maybe? I learned these things because
I'm interested in them.
Not everyone is interested in grammatical nuances; *I* get this. I also get
that I'm not interested in sine and co-sine---no great loss in my world.
My son's knowledge of music and film-making is light-years ahead of my own.
Where would he have learned these things? with *me* as his only resource???
My other son can play Yu-Gi-Oh!; that in itself is a feat I can't hope to
accomplish! Yet they acquired these skills----skills I don't "seem to know or
care how to use." Nor am I "the only resource my children have for learning."
Why should I think that math and reading/grammar/spelling are any different?
A child who is fascinated with language or numbers or Greek auto mechanics
will learn these things when he's ready, when he wants to, when it's fun. He
will. I trust this. I've watched it in myself. I've watched it in others. It's
how humans live----we're hard-wired to do just that.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana.tierney@... writes:
What I like about college is the
ability to meander through areas of knowledge. Much of that is
defeated if one takes the attitude that no, I can't take Native
American philosophy because I already have my elective for the year :)
Or whatever. But this is an attitude of the student, not necessarily
of the institution. I mean, the library is there. Nobody is going to
tell you you can only take out books that apply to your major.<<<<<<<
This can happen in an unschooling life as well. Libraries are
everywhere----every little town has a library---and inter-library loans. In life there is
no "major", so it really doesn't matter *what* books you check out.
>>>>>>I think I have already addressed the spelling thing elsewhere. While Iam as capable of a typo as the next person, it bothers me when people
who don't seem to know or care how to use language are the only
resource their children have for learning this. I think it's only fair
to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
available in areas which are not our strengths.<<<<<<
Only in families where "mom is the child's only teacher" would this be a
problem. Since you don't really understand unschooling, it's hard to comprehend
that children *are* so capable. My grammar is better than that of either of my
parents----so's my knowledge of unschooling and dogs and horses and bees and
swimming pools and Latin and German and Vienna. Where would I have gotten
this info if not for them? The world, maybe? I learned these things because
I'm interested in them.
Not everyone is interested in grammatical nuances; *I* get this. I also get
that I'm not interested in sine and co-sine---no great loss in my world.
My son's knowledge of music and film-making is light-years ahead of my own.
Where would he have learned these things? with *me* as his only resource???
My other son can play Yu-Gi-Oh!; that in itself is a feat I can't hope to
accomplish! Yet they acquired these skills----skills I don't "seem to know or
care how to use." Nor am I "the only resource my children have for learning."
Why should I think that math and reading/grammar/spelling are any different?
A child who is fascinated with language or numbers or Greek auto mechanics
will learn these things when he's ready, when he wants to, when it's fun. He
will. I trust this. I've watched it in myself. I've watched it in others. It's
how humans live----we're hard-wired to do just that.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/2004 8:07:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dana.tierney@... writes:
Because she was a radical unschooler, and I guess that in her worldview
statistics were schoolish stuff.<<<<<<<
I don't know her----but if she is a radical unschooler, then she probably
thinks about things critically. We all know that statistics can be skewed in
any way the researcher chooses. I wouldn't take any stats at face value.
exposure to math for the year was limited to the measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.<<<<<
Odd. In school, a whole year is devoted to geometry. Theoretical geometry. I
think a year devoted to practical geometry with a little physics thrown in
ain't a bad math year!
but
English. Why limit their possibilities?<<<<<
Doesn't sound limiting to me. Sounds practical in a math-ish way. Who cares
whether they become interested in 'academic' pursuits? You? As long as they're
in pursuit of *something*! And my guess is that with the practical
understanding down, it will only take days to months to understand the theory of that
math they 'studied'.
"Major" in English???? How in hell did we get a college major in English out
of building a DECK???? The only one limiting these children is you.
usefulness is not immediately apparent. Like algebra. So I disagree
with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
for use.<<<<<<
THERE are things you can learn ---things which have a use that is not
immediately apparent. Like Grand Theft Auto and Adult Swim. <g> Not everyone will
see its potential usefullness. Only the learner will know for sure.
A few days later I was walking down the street
I fell into that hole again and again someone helped me get out
And then
I was walking down the street and I fell in the hole again
I could not believe I fell in that hole again
When I looked at the walls of the hole I saw how to get out
When I got out of the hole, I saw some people
I warned them about the hole
The next day I walked down a different street.<<<<<<
Sounds like someone who didn't trust that she could learn from her own
experience.
There is no hole in unschooling. You have been pointing out flaws (holes) in
eclectic homeschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana.tierney@... writes:
Because she was a radical unschooler, and I guess that in her worldview
statistics were schoolish stuff.<<<<<<<
I don't know her----but if she is a radical unschooler, then she probably
thinks about things critically. We all know that statistics can be skewed in
any way the researcher chooses. I wouldn't take any stats at face value.
>>>>>>This person lives on an isolated farm in Ohio. I know from discussionsof the portfolio she turned in (Ohio requirement) that her children's
exposure to math for the year was limited to the measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.<<<<<
Odd. In school, a whole year is devoted to geometry. Theoretical geometry. I
think a year devoted to practical geometry with a little physics thrown in
ain't a bad math year!
>>>>>But if and when those children become interested in academic pursuitsthey will have several years of work to do if they want to major in anything
but
English. Why limit their possibilities?<<<<<
Doesn't sound limiting to me. Sounds practical in a math-ish way. Who cares
whether they become interested in 'academic' pursuits? You? As long as they're
in pursuit of *something*! And my guess is that with the practical
understanding down, it will only take days to months to understand the theory of that
math they 'studied'.
"Major" in English???? How in hell did we get a college major in English out
of building a DECK???? The only one limiting these children is you.
>>>>>This is not a flaw of unschooling per se, but of how certain peopleuse it. I do think that their are things you should learn whose
usefulness is not immediately apparent. Like algebra. So I disagree
with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
for use.<<<<<<
THERE are things you can learn ---things which have a use that is not
immediately apparent. Like Grand Theft Auto and Adult Swim. <g> Not everyone will
see its potential usefullness. Only the learner will know for sure.
>>>>>I was walking down the street and I fell into a holeSome people came and saw me and they helped me get out of that hole.
A few days later I was walking down the street
I fell into that hole again and again someone helped me get out
And then
I was walking down the street and I fell in the hole again
I could not believe I fell in that hole again
When I looked at the walls of the hole I saw how to get out
When I got out of the hole, I saw some people
I warned them about the hole
The next day I walked down a different street.<<<<<<
Sounds like someone who didn't trust that she could learn from her own
experience.
There is no hole in unschooling. You have been pointing out flaws (holes) in
eclectic homeschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/2004 10:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dana.tierney@... writes:
And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we have to
buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe I
am explaining this :)
You'd use algebra to determine where supply and demand curves meet if
you wanted to set an optimum price for your product. If you had the
tools, you'd be a little better off using calculus.
You'd use calculus to find a better way to render 3-d graphics, either
on the hardware or the software end.
You'd use summation to calculate the beta or volatility of a given stock.
Not to mention what you would use to make the next leap in quantum
computing -- a little over my head -- but an eigenvalue, I think.
Then there are growth curves in biology and microbiology....velocities
and orbits of planets, ballistics (bound to be a growth field if Bush
is re-elected) and good old plain vanilla chemical reactions and
circuit theory.<<<<<<<<
ALL screaming examples of algebra/calculus/problem-solving IN THE REAL
WORLD. So why do we need to teach it? It's right there. Plain as day. Staring you
right in the face.
No one here is saying "yuck pooey."
The deal is: He WILL learn it if and when he feels he needs it. Plain and
simple as that. That's what unschooling IS.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana.tierney@... writes:
And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we have to
buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe I
am explaining this :)
You'd use algebra to determine where supply and demand curves meet if
you wanted to set an optimum price for your product. If you had the
tools, you'd be a little better off using calculus.
You'd use calculus to find a better way to render 3-d graphics, either
on the hardware or the software end.
You'd use summation to calculate the beta or volatility of a given stock.
Not to mention what you would use to make the next leap in quantum
computing -- a little over my head -- but an eigenvalue, I think.
Then there are growth curves in biology and microbiology....velocities
and orbits of planets, ballistics (bound to be a growth field if Bush
is re-elected) and good old plain vanilla chemical reactions and
circuit theory.<<<<<<<<
ALL screaming examples of algebra/calculus/problem-solving IN THE REAL
WORLD. So why do we need to teach it? It's right there. Plain as day. Staring you
right in the face.
>>>>>>>I am sure that there are those out there saying yuck pooey what if hedoesn't want to learn all that?<<<<<<<<
No one here is saying "yuck pooey."
>>>>>Ah, but what if he does? And what if he does but doesn't know ityet?<<<<
The deal is: He WILL learn it if and when he feels he needs it. Plain and
simple as that. That's what unschooling IS.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/2004 11:03:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
OH PLEASE. Would you like it if someone forced you to take a class
you had zero interest in all because they were certain you really
wanted to but just didn't know it yet?<<<<<
I'm an avid gardener. Wasn't always. If I had been forced to bend over out
in the yard "learning" to weed or to identify plants or to haul manure---I
doubt I would have ever discovered gardening as enjoyable. I had zero interest in
gardening as a teen. I'm glad my parents didn't ruin it for me.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
OH PLEASE. Would you like it if someone forced you to take a class
you had zero interest in all because they were certain you really
wanted to but just didn't know it yet?<<<<<
I'm an avid gardener. Wasn't always. If I had been forced to bend over out
in the yard "learning" to weed or to identify plants or to haul manure---I
doubt I would have ever discovered gardening as enjoyable. I had zero interest in
gardening as a teen. I'm glad my parents didn't ruin it for me.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Muzyczka
At 09:31 AM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
usually alternatives.
I never finished college, neither did hubby. He's a programmer and
although he learned some good theory, mostly he constantly teaches himself.
I'm a lit geek. I was perfectly happy taking a varied liberal arts line
up. I've actually suggested to people a strategy for college: For the
first two years, take anything you want. See if it fits a requiremet,
though. Like take that art history class and check off an art class. Or a
history class. That'll save you time later. Then, after a bit, look at
the classes you've taken. Odds are you'll see a pattern.
Like I was almost 2/3 of the way through my lit requirements and finished
with an anthro minor. Oh and a history one.
Made declaring really simple.
Kelly
I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus
>In a message dated 10/14/2004 6:50:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,They do sometimes limit classes to only people in the area, but there are
>dana.tierney@... writes:
>
>What I like about college is the
>ability to meander through areas of knowledge. Much of that is
>defeated if one takes the attitude that no, I can't take Native
>American philosophy because I already have my elective for the year :)
>Or whatever. But this is an attitude of the student, not necessarily
>of the institution. I mean, the library is there. Nobody is going to
>tell you you can only take out books that apply to your major.<<<<<<<
usually alternatives.
I never finished college, neither did hubby. He's a programmer and
although he learned some good theory, mostly he constantly teaches himself.
I'm a lit geek. I was perfectly happy taking a varied liberal arts line
up. I've actually suggested to people a strategy for college: For the
first two years, take anything you want. See if it fits a requiremet,
though. Like take that art history class and check off an art class. Or a
history class. That'll save you time later. Then, after a bit, look at
the classes you've taken. Odds are you'll see a pattern.
Like I was almost 2/3 of the way through my lit requirements and finished
with an anthro minor. Oh and a history one.
Made declaring really simple.
Kelly
I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus