Christie Craigie-Carter

Hi all,

I have to admit, I don a bit of armor when I post here, but I also know
change doesn't happen unless you take risks, so here I go. I'm not sure
whether we'll ever be totally radical unschoolers, but I do like the changes
I'm seeing in the short time since I made a commitment toward change. Now,
I'm about to take several risks in posting this here, so please keep in mind
that if I didn't recognize the need for change, and wasn't willing, I
wouldn't be posting, and that I'm in a vulnerable place atm (fighting back
against some depression that's cropping up atm), when you reply to me. I
hope that's not perceived as rude, but this list seems to appreciate
directness.

I had a very stressful day yesterday; my sleep apnea is horrid from my
all-night bout with the stomach bug earlier in the week and exhaustion is
prolly the number one trigger for my less-than ideal parenting choices
(mostly barking at the kids for being kids), I also notice that I get most
frustrated when trying to complete a task that requires any level of
concentration (already a challenge when exhausted), and the volume level
gets really high. I'm working on that, but the first step was noticing what
the triggers are. I absolutely love the posts that were put on here a
couple of days ago.

At this point though, I'm correcting myself after the fact and really
hopeful that I get to the point of catching myself before, which I've
certainly done, but not near enough. At any rate, I'm sad to see my son
respond the way he does. He's very quick to offer an apology for upsetting
me, when really he was just being a kid. He'll preface things by saying "I
don't want to upset you, but", etc. It has really gotten my attention as to
how it feels for him. The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom of his
foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is really red and
raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about infection).
Anyway, I asked to look at them more closely, and mentioned that it might be
time to go to the doctor to see if she has any ideas. He totally flipped,
poor guy. He was cowering in the corner of my bed, shaking.

See, he's had this paranoia about going to the doctor meaning having shots.
We actually stopped vaxing several years ago, when he had a scary reaction
to the DTaP, and the only thing "shot-like" that he's had since then has
been bloodwork to evaluate for allergies which run in my family. Don't even
get me started about that decision--he turned up positive to three foods,
only to have the allergist say that it was such a weak positive, that it
could be ignored, and then imply in his notes that I pushed for the testing,
when I never would have done it w/o his insistence. I've learned a lot
about standing up to doctors the last few years.

Anyway, I told him that the only thing I could anticipate him getting shots
for would be if he got bitten by an animal somehow (course doesn't our dog
go and accidentally bite him and break the skin the very next day, but it's
okay. I ran it by the doc and they said just to watch it for infection. It
was also another opportunity to assure him that I know and Dr. V. knows how
much he doesn't want shots and we are doing our best to honor that). I said
this in an effort to help him feel more relaxed about going to the doctor,
which though we don't do it often, there are times when it is prudent (like
with his foot and when he had Lyme's Disease for the 2nd time).

At any rate, he says to me while balled up on my bed after I asked to see
his foot "but I'm just different like the guy with Tourette's" (we just
watched a movie about a man living with Tourette's). It actually was a
really nice opportunity to heal, I think. I just assured him that I would
never intend to make fun of him, that I'm really sorry that's what he
thought, that it's totally okay to be who he is, and how much I love him for
who he is, etc. I'm very aware that I need to be cautious about talking
about him to others, as even though I'm always doing so lovingly and out of
concern, or pride, he doesn't hear it that way. He's a lot like me
actually. I've told my mother, etc., that we can't talk right now, etc. and
how senstive he is to criticism. My parents have done a lot of comparing
him to my niece, who is his age, re: his fears for TV shows, etc.

I'd love suggestions about continuing to help us heal that relationship.

Now on to another challenge---dh! First off, no one needs to tell me how
great he is. I know it. He's a phenomenal man, and I love and adore him
immensely. He loves his kids dearly, although he admits that 3 is stressful
to him (me too at times). He comes from a very traditional parenting
background, as do most of us, and really is of the belief that kids need to
respect and listen to their parents just b/c. I have to admit to fighting
that mindset for myself at times. At any rate, I've been broaching small
things with him, w/o saying I heard about it here, b/c he dismisses it then,
like the wish list board idea, and was going to bring up allowance when he
hopefully gets a small raise in March (no guarantee with the economy, of
course). Well, he brings up allowance himself the other day and I was
encouraged.

Then, he mentions having it tied to chores (kinda laid back, but, still).
Unfortunately, I kind of jumped on him, in that I was so taken aback, that I
said "No", rather firmly. Which I apologized for later, and explained (I
was trying to nurse my youngest to sleep, so that was another reason that I
was more abrupt). I explained to him that having chores tied to allowance
was just setting us all up to fail. I don't think he buys it. Honestly,
we're both overwhelmed with how often they all drop things on the ground and
just leave them there. I don't have high standards, by any means, but I'm
very clumsy, and have often hurt myself b/c of things left on the floor. I
really worry when I am carrying the 2 yr old, and can't see obstacles as
well.

At any rate, how do I go about making the positive changes I'm trying to
make, while feeling like I'm causing tension in my relationship? More
importantly, how can I respect my husband's concerns and still make changes
that I truly believe are necessary for my children's well-being? He has
never been a fan of my decision to homeschool, not to mention unschool, and
this and deciding to have a 3rd child have really been the only times we've
disagreed (in any major way) in 17 yrs of knowing each other. I think he's
more comfortable with homeschooling, as he's been able to admit that Josh
really is motivated to learn on his own (which he highly doubted in the
past), but he still thinks Josh would benefit from ideas from someone other
than me, from teachers' years of experience, and that it is more work than
it is worth (i.e. school doesn't damage kids). So, it's challenging for
sure.

Okay, I've rambled on more than I intended. I know I brought up several
issues, and maybe it would have been better to do it in separate posts,
but....I'm nervous, but also looking forward to your responses.

Warmly,

Christie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
> I'd love suggestions about continuing to help us heal that
> relationship.

The relationship between you and your son? There are a lot of people
in the previous few paragraphs, so just checking....

If you haven't read Pam Sorooshian's writing on the subject of
"becoming the parent you want to be", take a look:

http://www.sandradodd.com/peace/becoming.html

It's been very helpful to me over the years.

Robin B.

Robin Bentley

>
> I had a very stressful day yesterday;

<snip>

Whenever I start justifying my less-than-ideal parenting, it really is
a clue to me that I need to look at things differently.
>
> At this point though, I'm correcting myself after the fact and really
> hopeful that I get to the point of catching myself before, which I've
> certainly done, but not near enough.

Being aware is the first step towards changing how you react, of
course. So, when you notice a trigger, have a plan. Breathe. Breathe
some more. Remove yourself from the situation for a minute to stop
whatever cycle you are beginning to enter. Exhaustion is common when
you have small children and you have three. It will not be like this
forever! But giving your kids the gift of a frustrated-less-often
mother will help your relationships.


> At any rate, I'm sad to see my son
> respond the way he does. He's very quick to offer an apology for
> upsetting
> me, when really he was just being a kid. He'll preface things by
> saying "I
> don't want to upset you, but", etc. It has really gotten my
> attention as to
> how it feels for him. The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom
> of his
> foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is really
> red and
> raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> infection).
> Anyway, I asked to look at them more closely, and mentioned that it
> might be
> time to go to the doctor to see if she has any ideas. He totally
> flipped,
> poor guy. He was cowering in the corner of my bed, shaking.

So, you know that he has fear around doctor's visits. Maybe, before
you mention that likelihood to him, research the possibilities for
healing his foot without going to the doctor. There are naturopaths
and homeopaths who don't use needles and have success with such
ongoing issues. But, you could inform yourself first.
>
> See, he's had this paranoia about going to the doctor meaning having
> shots.
> We actually stopped vaxing several years ago, when he had a scary
> reaction
> to the DTaP, and the only thing "shot-like" that he's had since then
> has
> been bloodwork to evaluate for allergies which run in my family.
> Don't even
> get me started about that decision--he turned up positive to three
> foods,
> only to have the allergist say that it was such a weak positive,
> that it
> could be ignored, and then imply in his notes that I pushed for the
> testing,
> when I never would have done it w/o his insistence. I've learned a
> lot
> about standing up to doctors the last few years.
>
> Anyway, I told him that the only thing I could anticipate him
> getting shots
> for would be if he got bitten by an animal somehow (course doesn't
> our dog
> go and accidentally bite him and break the skin the very next day,
> but it's
> okay.

I'm not sure I would even bring this up to my daughter, who has a lot
of fear around doctors, dentists and needles. It would set up another
fear in her mind about being bitten by a dog and what would happen
after that.

> I ran it by the doc and they said just to watch it for infection. It
> was also another opportunity to assure him that I know and Dr. V.
> knows how
> much he doesn't want shots and we are doing our best to honor
> that). I said
> this in an effort to help him feel more relaxed about going to the
> doctor,
> which though we don't do it often, there are times when it is
> prudent (like
> with his foot and when he had Lyme's Disease for the 2nd time).

So, it might be better not to try to help him feel more relaxed. Go
when you really need to go and help him *right then* with his fears.
Don't talk about what may or may not happen, because that can be
stressful. I used to do just this kind of thing with my very
sensitive, reactive, and imaginative daughter and it would just set
her up for too much worrying about the future. I thought I was helping
by "preparing" her. It didn't help much at all, especially if I went
into detail or talked about it more than once.
>
> At any rate, he says to me while balled up on my bed after I asked
> to see
> his foot "but I'm just different like the guy with Tourette's" (we
> just
> watched a movie about a man living with Tourette's). It actually
> was a
> really nice opportunity to heal, I think. I just assured him that I
> would
> never intend to make fun of him, that I'm really sorry that's what he
> thought, that it's totally okay to be who he is, and how much I love
> him for
> who he is, etc. I'm very aware that I need to be cautious about
> talking
> about him to others, as even though I'm always doing so lovingly and
> out of
> concern, or pride, he doesn't hear it that way.

My dd doesn't like to be talked about either. It can be construed as
disrespect. Not every person feels this way, but I need to honor *her*
need for privacy. How I see her will be different from how she sees
herself, too.

I remember it this way: if my husband was talking about me, in front
of me, to others (even if it was loving, with pride or out of concern)
I might feel uncomfortable, embarrassed and possibly miffed.

> He's a lot like me
> actually. I've told my mother, etc., that we can't talk right now,
> etc. and
> how senstive he is to criticism. My parents have done a lot of
> comparing
> him to my niece, who is his age, re: his fears for TV shows, etc.

I've found it was important to protect my daughter from those
comparisons by not over-emphasizing her differences, nor entertaining
much discussion with grandparents about it. All kids have their own
timelines, quirks, and fears, some more apparent than others.
Explaining too much can sound like defensiveness. Being a child's
advocate sometimes means diverting attention.

I notice there are many situations and explanations throughout your
post. Then you ask how you can heal the relationship without really
telling us what you think your relationship is with your son. If you
can think about that, then tell us what you believe is missing or
needs repair, that will help clarify, both for you and the list members.

There may be some value to journalling about these things. Getting
your thoughts down on paper, the stream-of-consciousness stuff, can
help to shed some light on what seems daunting at first.

Robin B.

Robin Bentley

>
> Now on to another challenge---dh! First off, no one needs to tell
> me how
> great he is.

Hey, we don't even know him <g>.

Here's a page on Sandra's site about spouses and how unschooling can
make relationships better - it's really good.

http://sandradodd.com/spouses

Robin B.

Christie Craigie-Carter

On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>wrote:

> >
> > I'd love suggestions about continuing to help us heal that
> > relationship.
>
> The relationship between you and your son? There are a lot of people
> in the previous few paragraphs, so just checking....
>








Yes, sorry. The relationship with my son. He doesn't trust us, of that I'm
sure. And I could easily get defensive and say that it is ridiculous
because of course we love him, etc., but none of that matters. What matters
is that he feels the way he does and it's our job to help him feel better.

>
>
> If you haven't read Pam Sorooshian's writing on the subject of
> "becoming the parent you want to be", take a look:
>
> http://www.sandradodd.com/peace/becoming.html
>







I've got to bookmark this! Another challenge has been that I'm not on the
computer as often, so I end up starring suggestions of links to go to, only
to be too overwhelmed and not know where to start when I finally get a
chance to go back and look at them, lol.

>
>
> It's been very helpful to me over the years.
>




Thanks so much!!!!

Christie

>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom
> of his
> foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is really
> red and
> raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> infection).
-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Just a note here. My sister used to have that and she found out that every time she had shoes that were synthetic her feet would get worse.
she can only wear natural fibers and leather. No plastic or rubber.
She also added omega oils to her  diet and it helped heal a lot faster.
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 




________________________________
From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 11:59:40 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh


>
> I had a very stressful day yesterday;

<snip>

Whenever I start justifying my less-than-ideal parenting, it really is
a clue to me that I need to look at things differently.
>
> At this point though, I'm correcting myself after the fact and really
> hopeful that I get to the point of catching myself before, which I've
> certainly done, but not near enough.

Being aware is the first step towards changing how you react, of
course. So, when you notice a trigger, have a plan. Breathe. Breathe
some more. Remove yourself from the situation for a minute to stop
whatever cycle you are beginning to enter. Exhaustion is common when
you have small children and you have three. It will not be like this
forever! But giving your kids the gift of a frustrated-less- often
mother will help your relationships.

> At any rate, I'm sad to see my son
> respond the way he does. He's very quick to offer an apology for
> upsetting
> me, when really he was just being a kid. He'll preface things by
> saying "I
> don't want to upset you, but", etc. It has really gotten my
> attention as to
> how it feels for him. The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom
> of his
> foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is really
> red and
> raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> infection).
> Anyway, I asked to look at them more closely, and mentioned that it
> might be
> time to go to the doctor to see if she has any ideas. He totally
> flipped,
> poor guy. He was cowering in the corner of my bed, shaking.

So, you know that he has fear around doctor's visits. Maybe, before
you mention that likelihood to him, research the possibilities for
healing his foot without going to the doctor. There are naturopaths
and homeopaths who don't use needles and have success with such
ongoing issues. But, you could inform yourself first.
>
> See, he's had this paranoia about going to the doctor meaning having
> shots.
> We actually stopped vaxing several years ago, when he had a scary
> reaction
> to the DTaP, and the only thing "shot-like" that he's had since then
> has
> been bloodwork to evaluate for allergies which run in my family.
> Don't even
> get me started about that decision--he turned up positive to three
> foods,
> only to have the allergist say that it was such a weak positive,
> that it
> could be ignored, and then imply in his notes that I pushed for the
> testing,
> when I never would have done it w/o his insistence. I've learned a
> lot
> about standing up to doctors the last few years.
>
> Anyway, I told him that the only thing I could anticipate him
> getting shots
> for would be if he got bitten by an animal somehow (course doesn't
> our dog
> go and accidentally bite him and break the skin the very next day,
> but it's
> okay.

I'm not sure I would even bring this up to my daughter, who has a lot
of fear around doctors, dentists and needles. It would set up another
fear in her mind about being bitten by a dog and what would happen
after that.

> I ran it by the doc and they said just to watch it for infection. It
> was also another opportunity to assure him that I know and Dr. V.
> knows how
> much he doesn't want shots and we are doing our best to honor
> that). I said
> this in an effort to help him feel more relaxed about going to the
> doctor,
> which though we don't do it often, there are times when it is
> prudent (like
> with his foot and when he had Lyme's Disease for the 2nd time).

So, it might be better not to try to help him feel more relaxed. Go
when you really need to go and help him *right then* with his fears.
Don't talk about what may or may not happen, because that can be
stressful. I used to do just this kind of thing with my very
sensitive, reactive, and imaginative daughter and it would just set
her up for too much worrying about the future. I thought I was helping
by "preparing" her. It didn't help much at all, especially if I went
into detail or talked about it more than once.
>
> At any rate, he says to me while balled up on my bed after I asked
> to see
> his foot "but I'm just different like the guy with Tourette's" (we
> just
> watched a movie about a man living with Tourette's). It actually
> was a
> really nice opportunity to heal, I think. I just assured him that I
> would
> never intend to make fun of him, that I'm really sorry that's what he
> thought, that it's totally okay to be who he is, and how much I love
> him for
> who he is, etc. I'm very aware that I need to be cautious about
> talking
> about him to others, as even though I'm always doing so lovingly and
> out of
> concern, or pride, he doesn't hear it that way.

My dd doesn't like to be talked about either. It can be construed as
disrespect. Not every person feels this way, but I need to honor *her*
need for privacy. How I see her will be different from how she sees
herself, too.

I remember it this way: if my husband was talking about me, in front
of me, to others (even if it was loving, with pride or out of concern)
I might feel uncomfortable, embarrassed and possibly miffed.

> He's a lot like me
> actually. I've told my mother, etc., that we can't talk right now,
> etc. and
> how senstive he is to criticism. My parents have done a lot of
> comparing
> him to my niece, who is his age, re: his fears for TV shows, etc.

I've found it was important to protect my daughter from those
comparisons by not over-emphasizing her differences, nor entertaining
much discussion with grandparents about it. All kids have their own
timelines, quirks, and fears, some more apparent than others.
Explaining too much can sound like defensiveness. Being a child's
advocate sometimes means diverting attention.

I notice there are many situations and explanations throughout your
post. Then you ask how you can heal the relationship without really
telling us what you think your relationship is with your son. If you
can think about that, then tell us what you believe is missing or
needs repair, that will help clarify, both for you and the list members.

There may be some value to journalling about these things. Getting
your thoughts down on paper, the stream-of-conscious ness stuff, can
help to shed some light on what seems daunting at first.

Robin B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pclatha

You did not mention if it was stress related or something topical,
have you tried the miracle salve? I have found it to be useful for a
multitude of things. Here is the link.

http://www.kerrysherbals.com/herbalsalves.shtml

I also find that topical application of coconut oil helps heal most
skin issues.

Can you also offer him a pedicure? or teach him to do it himself and
apply a foot cream (I love bodyshop products for feet) before he
wears socks and/or at nights with socks?

Sorry you are having a tough time.


Latha



--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom
> > of his
> > foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is
really
> > red and
> > raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> > infection).
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Just a note here. My sister used to have that and she found out
that every time she had shoes that were synthetic her feet would get
worse.
> she can only wear natural fibers and leather. No plastic or rubber.
> She also added omega oils to her  diet and it helped heal a lot
faster.
>  
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>  
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 11:59:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful
parenting and help with dh
>
>
> >
> > I had a very stressful day yesterday;
>
> <snip>
>
> Whenever I start justifying my less-than-ideal parenting, it
really is
> a clue to me that I need to look at things differently.
> >
> > At this point though, I'm correcting myself after the fact and
really
> > hopeful that I get to the point of catching myself before, which
I've
> > certainly done, but not near enough.
>
> Being aware is the first step towards changing how you react, of
> course. So, when you notice a trigger, have a plan. Breathe.
Breathe
> some more. Remove yourself from the situation for a minute to stop
> whatever cycle you are beginning to enter. Exhaustion is common
when
> you have small children and you have three. It will not be like
this
> forever! But giving your kids the gift of a frustrated-less- often
> mother will help your relationships.
>
> > At any rate, I'm sad to see my son
> > respond the way he does. He's very quick to offer an apology for
> > upsetting
> > me, when really he was just being a kid. He'll preface things by
> > saying "I
> > don't want to upset you, but", etc. It has really gotten my
> > attention as to
> > how it feels for him. The other day, I noticed how bad the
bottom
> > of his
> > foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is
really
> > red and
> > raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> > infection).
> > Anyway, I asked to look at them more closely, and mentioned that
it
> > might be
> > time to go to the doctor to see if she has any ideas. He totally
> > flipped,
> > poor guy. He was cowering in the corner of my bed, shaking.
>
> So, you know that he has fear around doctor's visits. Maybe,
before
> you mention that likelihood to him, research the possibilities for
> healing his foot without going to the doctor. There are
naturopaths
> and homeopaths who don't use needles and have success with such
> ongoing issues. But, you could inform yourself first.
> >
> > See, he's had this paranoia about going to the doctor meaning
having
> > shots.
> > We actually stopped vaxing several years ago, when he had a
scary
> > reaction
> > to the DTaP, and the only thing "shot-like" that he's had since
then
> > has
> > been bloodwork to evaluate for allergies which run in my family.
> > Don't even
> > get me started about that decision--he turned up positive to
three
> > foods,
> > only to have the allergist say that it was such a weak positive,
> > that it
> > could be ignored, and then imply in his notes that I pushed for
the
> > testing,
> > when I never would have done it w/o his insistence. I've learned
a
> > lot
> > about standing up to doctors the last few years.
> >
> > Anyway, I told him that the only thing I could anticipate him
> > getting shots
> > for would be if he got bitten by an animal somehow (course
doesn't
> > our dog
> > go and accidentally bite him and break the skin the very next
day,
> > but it's
> > okay.
>
> I'm not sure I would even bring this up to my daughter, who has a
lot
> of fear around doctors, dentists and needles. It would set up
another
> fear in her mind about being bitten by a dog and what would happen
> after that.
>
> > I ran it by the doc and they said just to watch it for
infection. It
> > was also another opportunity to assure him that I know and Dr.
V.
> > knows how
> > much he doesn't want shots and we are doing our best to honor
> > that). I said
> > this in an effort to help him feel more relaxed about going to
the
> > doctor,
> > which though we don't do it often, there are times when it is
> > prudent (like
> > with his foot and when he had Lyme's Disease for the 2nd time).
>
> So, it might be better not to try to help him feel more relaxed.
Go
> when you really need to go and help him *right then* with his
fears.
> Don't talk about what may or may not happen, because that can be
> stressful. I used to do just this kind of thing with my very
> sensitive, reactive, and imaginative daughter and it would just
set
> her up for too much worrying about the future. I thought I was
helping
> by "preparing" her. It didn't help much at all, especially if I
went
> into detail or talked about it more than once.
> >
> > At any rate, he says to me while balled up on my bed after I
asked
> > to see
> > his foot "but I'm just different like the guy with Tourette's"
(we
> > just
> > watched a movie about a man living with Tourette's). It actually
> > was a
> > really nice opportunity to heal, I think. I just assured him
that I
> > would
> > never intend to make fun of him, that I'm really sorry that's
what he
> > thought, that it's totally okay to be who he is, and how much I
love
> > him for
> > who he is, etc. I'm very aware that I need to be cautious about
> > talking
> > about him to others, as even though I'm always doing so lovingly
and
> > out of
> > concern, or pride, he doesn't hear it that way.
>
> My dd doesn't like to be talked about either. It can be construed
as
> disrespect. Not every person feels this way, but I need to honor
*her*
> need for privacy. How I see her will be different from how she
sees
> herself, too.
>
> I remember it this way: if my husband was talking about me, in
front
> of me, to others (even if it was loving, with pride or out of
concern)
> I might feel uncomfortable, embarrassed and possibly miffed.
>
> > He's a lot like me
> > actually. I've told my mother, etc., that we can't talk right
now,
> > etc. and
> > how senstive he is to criticism. My parents have done a lot of
> > comparing
> > him to my niece, who is his age, re: his fears for TV shows, etc.
>
> I've found it was important to protect my daughter from those
> comparisons by not over-emphasizing her differences, nor
entertaining
> much discussion with grandparents about it. All kids have their
own
> timelines, quirks, and fears, some more apparent than others.
> Explaining too much can sound like defensiveness. Being a child's
> advocate sometimes means diverting attention.
>
> I notice there are many situations and explanations throughout
your
> post. Then you ask how you can heal the relationship without
really
> telling us what you think your relationship is with your son. If
you
> can think about that, then tell us what you believe is missing or
> needs repair, that will help clarify, both for you and the list
members.
>
> There may be some value to journalling about these things. Getting
> your thoughts down on paper, the stream-of-conscious ness stuff,
can
> help to shed some light on what seems daunting at first.
>
> Robin B.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Christie Craigie-Carter

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:59 AM, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>wrote:

> >
> > I had a very stressful day yesterday;
>
> <snip>
>
> Whenever I start justifying my less-than-ideal parenting, it really is
> a clue to me that I need to look at things differently.
>










Of course, like I said, I recognize that for sure.

>
> >
> > At this point though, I'm correcting myself after the fact and really
> > hopeful that I get to the point of catching myself before, which I've
> > certainly done, but not near enough.
>
> Being aware is the first step towards changing how you react, of
> course. So, when you notice a trigger, have a plan. Breathe. Breathe
> some more. Remove yourself from the situation for a minute to stop
> whatever cycle you are beginning to enter. Exhaustion is common when
> you have small children and you have three. It will not be like this
> forever! But giving your kids the gift of a frustrated-less-often
> mother will help your relationships.
>














Absolutely.

>
>
> > At any rate, I'm sad to see my son
> > respond the way he does. He's very quick to offer an apology for
> > upsetting
> > me, when really he was just being a kid. He'll preface things by
> > saying "I
> > don't want to upset you, but", etc. It has really gotten my
> > attention as to
> > how it feels for him. The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom
> > of his
> > foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is really
> > red and
> > raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> > infection).
> > Anyway, I asked to look at them more closely, and mentioned that it
> > might be
> > time to go to the doctor to see if she has any ideas. He totally
> > flipped,
> > poor guy. He was cowering in the corner of my bed, shaking.
>
> So, you know that he has fear around doctor's visits. Maybe, before
> you mention that likelihood to him, research the possibilities for
> healing his foot without going to the doctor. There are naturopaths
> and homeopaths who don't use needles and have success with such
> ongoing issues. But, you could inform yourself first.
>



























Oh, researching ahead isn't my problem ;-) Unfortunately, I'm pretty
confident that he would perceive the naturopath the same way he perceives
our FP doc. If you knew her, you'd know that they don't get any more gentle
and caring then she. That and the fact that she totally respects our
decisions about our health, and she's a rare gem (how sad is that?). I will
look into this though. And forgive the rant, but much as I love my
naturopath, she charges about $100/hr. which is really rough.

>
> >
> > See, he's had this paranoia about going to the doctor meaning having
> > shots.
> > We actually stopped vaxing several years ago, when he had a scary
> > reaction
> > to the DTaP, and the only thing "shot-like" that he's had since then
> > has
> > been bloodwork to evaluate for allergies which run in my family.
> > Don't even
> > get me started about that decision--he turned up positive to three
> > foods,
> > only to have the allergist say that it was such a weak positive,
> > that it
> > could be ignored, and then imply in his notes that I pushed for the
> > testing,
> > when I never would have done it w/o his insistence. I've learned a
> > lot
> > about standing up to doctors the last few years.
> >
> > Anyway, I told him that the only thing I could anticipate him
> > getting shots
> > for would be if he got bitten by an animal somehow (course doesn't
> > our dog
> > go and accidentally bite him and break the skin the very next day,
> > but it's
> > okay.
>
> I'm not sure I would even bring this up to my daughter, who has a lot
> of fear around doctors, dentists and needles. It would set up another
> fear in her mind about being bitten by a dog and what would happen
> after that.
>

































You know, I've struggled with this a lot. His fears seem to snowball, and
any time I've given information like this, it's been in an attempt to stop
the snowballing. See, I understand anxiety all too well. One thing I do
need to examine is my commitment to being totally honest with my kids, which
is definitely part of the motivation in giving him an example; I wouldn't
ever want him to feel that I lied to him.


>
>
> > I ran it by the doc and they said just to watch it for infection. It
> > was also another opportunity to assure him that I know and Dr. V.
> > knows how
> > much he doesn't want shots and we are doing our best to honor
> > that). I said
> > this in an effort to help him feel more relaxed about going to the
> > doctor,
> > which though we don't do it often, there are times when it is
> > prudent (like
> > with his foot and when he had Lyme's Disease for the 2nd time).
>
> So, it might be better not to try to help him feel more relaxed. Go
> when you really need to go and help him *right then* with his fears.
> Don't talk about what may or may not happen, because that can be
> stressful. I used to do just this kind of thing with my very
> sensitive, reactive, and imaginative daughter and it would just set
> her up for too much worrying about the future. I thought I was helping
> by "preparing" her. It didn't help much at all, especially if I went
> into detail or talked about it more than once.
>






















I have to think about it more, but I'm nearly positive that we only discuss
it when he brings it up and it's so hard to know if springing it on him
would damage trust. How did you determine that?

>
> >
> > At any rate, he says to me while balled up on my bed after I asked
> > to see
> > his foot "but I'm just different like the guy with Tourette's" (we
> > just
> > watched a movie about a man living with Tourette's). It actually
> > was a
> > really nice opportunity to heal, I think. I just assured him that I
> > would
> > never intend to make fun of him, that I'm really sorry that's what he
> > thought, that it's totally okay to be who he is, and how much I love
> > him for
> > who he is, etc. I'm very aware that I need to be cautious about
> > talking
> > about him to others, as even though I'm always doing so lovingly and
> > out of
> > concern, or pride, he doesn't hear it that way.
>
> My dd doesn't like to be talked about either. It can be construed as
> disrespect. Not every person feels this way, but I need to honor *her*
> need for privacy. How I see her will be different from how she sees
> herself, too.
>
























Absolutely. I've gotten the hint. I wonder what you all think about
this--it would be my preference for many reasons to limit our time with my
family. They are much more authoritarian in their views and, in their
effort to "fix" him, they often make suggestions that he feels are
criticism. Still, he wants to go over there frequently. I talk with him
about how he feels about those things, and he usually just shrugs and says
he still wants to go over. So, I follow his lead. What makes me nervous,
and something that I don't think many here would agree with, is I don't feel
like children can always weigh multi-factorial decisons like that.
Certainly he knows that he enjoys going over there, and right now, the
benefits outweigh the costs, but I admit I'm concerned about damage they may
cause.


>
>
> I remember it this way: if my husband was talking about me, in front
> of me, to others (even if it was loving, with pride or out of concern)
> I might feel uncomfortable, embarrassed and possibly miffed.
>






Of course.

>
>
> > He's a lot like me
> > actually. I've told my mother, etc., that we can't talk right now,
> > etc. and
> > how senstive he is to criticism. My parents have done a lot of
> > comparing
> > him to my niece, who is his age, re: his fears for TV shows, etc.
>
> I've found it was important to protect my daughter from those
> comparisons by not over-emphasizing her differences, nor entertaining
> much discussion with grandparents about it. All kids have their own
> timelines, quirks, and fears, some more apparent than others.
> Explaining too much can sound like defensiveness. Being a child's
> advocate sometimes means diverting attention.
>
















Yep, that's what I'm trying to do, either by avoiding being there as often
(again, for many reasons), or by letting them know that I'd appreciate them
keeping their comments to themselves (not said quite like that, as that
might trigger their "You don't respect your parents" point). Unfortunately,
this can often end with them concluding that he's just "too sensitive" like
me. Ugh.

>
>
> I notice there are many situations and explanations throughout your
> post. Then you ask how you can heal the relationship without really
> telling us what you think your relationship is with your son. If you
> can think about that, then tell us what you believe is missing or
> needs repair, that will help clarify, both for you and the list members.
>








What I think is missing is him knowing, totally and completely, how much we
love him. I can tell that he doubts it, even as it blows my mind that he
could ever doubt it. But his feelings are real, as much as mine are.

>
>
> There may be some value to journalling about these things. Getting
> your thoughts down on paper, the stream-of-consciousness stuff, can
> help to shed some light on what seems daunting at first.
>






Great idea, thanks for the suggestion. I just found my journal as luck
would have it, so this is very timely.

Thanks so much!

Christie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christie Craigie-Carter

Thanks Alex and Latha! I will look into both of those. Latha, I have a
salve that was originally intended for my bout with Thrust (awful stuff,
truly), I wonder if that would work. I think it's called "Kelly's miracle
salve" and iirc, it was intended for the peeling.

Thanks again!

Christie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christie Craigie-Carter

Oops, sorry to clog up the list. I looked at the link afterwards, and that
is the exact stuff I have; what luck!!!!

Thanks!

Christie

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 3:50 PM, pclatha <pclatha@...> wrote:

> You did not mention if it was stress related or something topical,
> have you tried the miracle salve? I have found it to be useful for a
> multitude of things. Here is the link.
>
> http://www.kerrysherbals.com/herbalsalves.shtml
>
> I also find that topical application of coconut oil helps heal most
> skin issues.
>
> Can you also offer him a pedicure? or teach him to do it himself and
> apply a foot cream (I love bodyshop products for feet) before he
> wears socks and/or at nights with socks?
>
> Sorry you are having a tough time.
>
> Latha
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
> <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> >
> > The other day, I noticed how bad the bottom
> > > of his
> > > foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is
> really
> > > red and
> > > raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> > > infection).
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Just a note here. My sister used to have that and she found out
> that every time she had shoes that were synthetic her feet would get
> worse.
> > she can only wear natural fibers and leather. No plastic or rubber.
> > She also added omega oils to her diet and it helped heal a lot
> faster.
> >
> > Alex Polikowsky
> > http://polykow.blogspot.com/
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
>
> > To: [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 11:59:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful
> parenting and help with dh
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I had a very stressful day yesterday;
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Whenever I start justifying my less-than-ideal parenting, it
> really is
> > a clue to me that I need to look at things differently.
> > >
> > > At this point though, I'm correcting myself after the fact and
> really
> > > hopeful that I get to the point of catching myself before, which
> I've
> > > certainly done, but not near enough.
> >
> > Being aware is the first step towards changing how you react, of
> > course. So, when you notice a trigger, have a plan. Breathe.
> Breathe
> > some more. Remove yourself from the situation for a minute to stop
> > whatever cycle you are beginning to enter. Exhaustion is common
> when
> > you have small children and you have three. It will not be like
> this
> > forever! But giving your kids the gift of a frustrated-less- often
> > mother will help your relationships.
> >
> > > At any rate, I'm sad to see my son
> > > respond the way he does. He's very quick to offer an apology for
> > > upsetting
> > > me, when really he was just being a kid. He'll preface things by
> > > saying "I
> > > don't want to upset you, but", etc. It has really gotten my
> > > attention as to
> > > how it feels for him. The other day, I noticed how bad the
> bottom
> > > of his
> > > foot has gotten (they peel, and he picks at it, and now it is
> really
> > > red and
> > > raw with a couple of deep fissures that make me nervous about
> > > infection).
> > > Anyway, I asked to look at them more closely, and mentioned that
> it
> > > might be
> > > time to go to the doctor to see if she has any ideas. He totally
> > > flipped,
> > > poor guy. He was cowering in the corner of my bed, shaking.
> >
> > So, you know that he has fear around doctor's visits. Maybe,
> before
> > you mention that likelihood to him, research the possibilities for
> > healing his foot without going to the doctor. There are
> naturopaths
> > and homeopaths who don't use needles and have success with such
> > ongoing issues. But, you could inform yourself first.
> > >
> > > See, he's had this paranoia about going to the doctor meaning
> having
> > > shots.
> > > We actually stopped vaxing several years ago, when he had a
> scary
> > > reaction
> > > to the DTaP, and the only thing "shot-like" that he's had since
> then
> > > has
> > > been bloodwork to evaluate for allergies which run in my family.
> > > Don't even
> > > get me started about that decision--he turned up positive to
> three
> > > foods,
> > > only to have the allergist say that it was such a weak positive,
> > > that it
> > > could be ignored, and then imply in his notes that I pushed for
> the
> > > testing,
> > > when I never would have done it w/o his insistence. I've learned
> a
> > > lot
> > > about standing up to doctors the last few years.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I told him that the only thing I could anticipate him
> > > getting shots
> > > for would be if he got bitten by an animal somehow (course
> doesn't
> > > our dog
> > > go and accidentally bite him and break the skin the very next
> day,
> > > but it's
> > > okay.
> >
> > I'm not sure I would even bring this up to my daughter, who has a
> lot
> > of fear around doctors, dentists and needles. It would set up
> another
> > fear in her mind about being bitten by a dog and what would happen
> > after that.
> >
> > > I ran it by the doc and they said just to watch it for
> infection. It
> > > was also another opportunity to assure him that I know and Dr.
> V.
> > > knows how
> > > much he doesn't want shots and we are doing our best to honor
> > > that). I said
> > > this in an effort to help him feel more relaxed about going to
> the
> > > doctor,
> > > which though we don't do it often, there are times when it is
> > > prudent (like
> > > with his foot and when he had Lyme's Disease for the 2nd time).
> >
> > So, it might be better not to try to help him feel more relaxed.
> Go
> > when you really need to go and help him *right then* with his
> fears.
> > Don't talk about what may or may not happen, because that can be
> > stressful. I used to do just this kind of thing with my very
> > sensitive, reactive, and imaginative daughter and it would just
> set
> > her up for too much worrying about the future. I thought I was
> helping
> > by "preparing" her. It didn't help much at all, especially if I
> went
> > into detail or talked about it more than once.
> > >
> > > At any rate, he says to me while balled up on my bed after I
> asked
> > > to see
> > > his foot "but I'm just different like the guy with Tourette's"
> (we
> > > just
> > > watched a movie about a man living with Tourette's). It actually
> > > was a
> > > really nice opportunity to heal, I think. I just assured him
> that I
> > > would
> > > never intend to make fun of him, that I'm really sorry that's
> what he
> > > thought, that it's totally okay to be who he is, and how much I
> love
> > > him for
> > > who he is, etc. I'm very aware that I need to be cautious about
> > > talking
> > > about him to others, as even though I'm always doing so lovingly
> and
> > > out of
> > > concern, or pride, he doesn't hear it that way.
> >
> > My dd doesn't like to be talked about either. It can be construed
> as
> > disrespect. Not every person feels this way, but I need to honor
> *her*
> > need for privacy. How I see her will be different from how she
> sees
> > herself, too.
> >
> > I remember it this way: if my husband was talking about me, in
> front
> > of me, to others (even if it was loving, with pride or out of
> concern)
> > I might feel uncomfortable, embarrassed and possibly miffed.
> >
> > > He's a lot like me
> > > actually. I've told my mother, etc., that we can't talk right
> now,
> > > etc. and
> > > how senstive he is to criticism. My parents have done a lot of
> > > comparing
> > > him to my niece, who is his age, re: his fears for TV shows, etc.
> >
> > I've found it was important to protect my daughter from those
> > comparisons by not over-emphasizing her differences, nor
> entertaining
> > much discussion with grandparents about it. All kids have their
> own
> > timelines, quirks, and fears, some more apparent than others.
> > Explaining too much can sound like defensiveness. Being a child's
> > advocate sometimes means diverting attention.
> >
> > I notice there are many situations and explanations throughout
> your
> > post. Then you ask how you can heal the relationship without
> really
> > telling us what you think your relationship is with your son. If
> you
> > can think about that, then tell us what you believe is missing or
> > needs repair, that will help clarify, both for you and the list
> members.
> >
> > There may be some value to journalling about these things. Getting
> > your thoughts down on paper, the stream-of-conscious ness stuff,
> can
> > help to shed some light on what seems daunting at first.
> >
> > Robin B.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christie Craigie-Carter

That was really good, Robin, thanks. I'm still perplexed about how to
reconcile moving in different directions (him wanting to give allowance for
doing chores, me wanting to be more respectful and have a collaborative
relationship with my kids).

I also just want to mention beautiful moments, b/c I don't think I notice
them near enough. I was having a "bad" day on Saturday (pain, fatigue,
stress about having lost something, and yet ever aware that these were small
problems, yet I thought I *had* to find it for the doctor's appt on Monday),
and my youngest, who is 2, walks over to me and goes "here Mama" and gives
me a gummy lifesaver. In his world, that could fix it all, and you know
what, for that moment, it did for me too. I'm trying really hard to live in
the moment, *this* moment, and darn if kids don't already know that, eh? A
few minutes later, my 7 yr old comes up and just moves in next to me and
nuzzles up. Beautiful moments and a reminder of all we have.

I don't know why I felt compelled to share, but it is what it is ;-).

Thanks!

Christie



On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>wrote:

> >
> > Now on to another challenge---dh! First off, no one needs to tell
> > me how
> > great he is.
>
> Hey, we don't even know him <g>.
>
> Here's a page on Sandra's site about spouses and how unschooling can
> make relationships better - it's really good.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/spouses
>
> Robin B.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Resnick

To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance for chores thing. We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain amount.

I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food, since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses. Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think it's just a part of life.

Debbie (in Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I think the difference between not feeling coerced by your boss versus feeling that paying your children a job based salary is innappropriate is that your relationship with your boss is clearly defined from the off as a work for pay deal. With your children the money for chores thing is something that you are adding to the mix in some sort of strange desire to set yourself up as their boss. You are creating an unnatural environment within your home. And damaging your relationship as their parent in the process.

Schuyler






To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance for chores thing. We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain amount.

I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food, since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses. Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think it's just a part of life.

Debbie (in Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

I have no desire, in the least, for our home to work like the world.
School is also how the world works - why don't I make my kids do
schoolwork? Bullying and getting beaten are also how the world works
for many - why don't I do those with my kids? Because those are parts
of the world that don't work for us.

An adult CHOOSES to go to work for income; it's a choice. I have
friends who choose not to do that, they earn income other ways, or
they live on very little. You CHOSE to bring your child into the
world. What you are not offering that the real world offers is CHOICE.
I hear you saying "it is a choice, Micah can get allowance or not".
But limiting what you will purchase otherwise is NOT Micah's choice.

Caren



--- In [email protected], "Deborah Resnick"
<deborah.resnick@...> wrote:
>
> To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on
chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our
money, and that's the way the world works.

Meridith Richardson

I think if he asks for ways to earn money that is fine.  Then provide it if you can.  I don't think we have to hand out free money to show our love.  BUt forcing him to do chores does not seem appropriate for the environment.  I do all the house work here and sometimes I have asked her to help clean her toys but if she does not then I do it without yelling.  I hope at some point she will find joy in helping others like i do.  But she has asked me, "how can I earn some money.'  I said would you like to do some things I do around the house and she said yes.  So I told her some options she did some and I paid her.  Her choice, just like my choice to work.  Do you all who oppose allowances hand out money to your kids for everything fun they want, or do you only buy needs and occasional wants?
Meridith


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:

From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 11:51 AM








I think the difference between not feeling coerced by your boss versus feeling that paying your children a job based salary is innappropriate is that your relationship with your boss is clearly defined from the off as a work for pay deal. With your children the money for chores thing is something that you are adding to the mix in some sort of strange desire to set yourself up as their boss. You are creating an unnatural environment within your home. And damaging your relationship as their parent in the process.

Schuyler

To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance for chores thing. We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain amount.

I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food, since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses. Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think it's just a part of life.

Debbie (in Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

> To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on
> chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our
> money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing
> us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance
> for chores thing.

For an unschooling perspective on this, read Joyce Fetterol's page:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/tyingallowancetochores.html

> We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in
> the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one
> person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose
> something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by
> whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no
> allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note
> saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain
> amount.

The responsibility for keeping the house belongs to the adults. Yes,
you can ask for help. But kids are not here to do our jobs. We adults
don't get paid for housework, yet we do it because we want a certain
level of cleanliness or tidiness. To expect children to have the same
perspective as we do about how a home should look doesn't make sense.
Modelling how you would like things to be has more impact in the long
run.
>
>
> I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of
> work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts
> (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food,
> since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses.
> Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like
> expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether
> he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three
> pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

So, these are learning goals *you* have for him.

If it's a matter of not being able to afford what he wants right now,
you could help him find a way to save for it. Or you could save for
it. If you are just determining what is a want vs. a need makes his
desires unimportant, or worse, worthless. Calling what makes his life
happy as "debts" makes me cringe. As Schuyler said, not a relationship-
building situation.

Part of unschooling is helping our kids get what they want and need.
It doesn't mean we don't talk to them about the wisdom of purchases or
alternatives, but they should be able to choose the $75 jeans,
especially if they have had a chance to consider the choices. Deciding
for him what is a want, not a need, doesn't help him learn to make
good choices.
>
> I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I
> feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my
> boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think
> it's just a part of life.

Part of *your* life. It will be part of his life, eventually. Right
now, you are responsible, as the parent, for providing for him, not
making him work for what he wants. I don't know how that would
*teach* responsibility without resentment.
>
Robin B.

Deborah Resnick

I feel that since our kids do have to live in the real world, and one of the reasons I unschool/homeschool is to make sure that he gets that real world exposure, the way I'm doing things is appropriate for our family. I would LOVE to choose not to work, but I would also have to choose not to eat, or wear clothes, or have a warm, dry place to sleep. It's not really a question of holding a job, it's the really about the process of obtaining funds in return for labor/services. Even your friends who choose not to work for someone else have to do something to get money to live on, unless perhaps they live with you?

Micah has the same choices at home that he would if he were out on his own - make decisions on purchases/finances based on real world needs. If he needs something, we talk and decide how it will be acquired. I don't think that kids (or adults) should rule the house - I think it's a joint venture.

As to my choosing to bring him into the world, that's true. But I don't choose to support him for his entire life, although you may feel that's acceptable for your family. I have five children who are grown and out in the world. They're independent and happy. That's my hope for Micah at the appropriate time for him, and for us.

Debbie in IN


----- Original Message -----
From: carenkh
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:02 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh


I have no desire, in the least, for our home to work like the world.
School is also how the world works - why don't I make my kids do
schoolwork? Bullying and getting beaten are also how the world works
for many - why don't I do those with my kids? Because those are parts
of the world that don't work for us.

An adult CHOOSES to go to work for income; it's a choice. I have
friends who choose not to do that, they earn income other ways, or
they live on very little. You CHOSE to bring your child into the
world. What you are not offering that the real world offers is CHOICE.
I hear you saying "it is a choice, Micah can get allowance or not".
But limiting what you will purchase otherwise is NOT Micah's choice.

Caren

--- In [email protected], "Deborah Resnick"
<deborah.resnick@...> wrote:
>
> To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on
chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our
money, and that's the way the world works.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meridith Richardson

How do you tell a child no then?  Will it not create a sense of entitlement in child if when you walk through walmart they want 7 or 8 different toys at once EVERY TIME, and you buy them.  Why should I buy them for them on a whim?  I don't see how that is a MUST for radical unschooling.  If there is something she consistently wants then yes I try to provide those things for her.  Meaning if she has to have a certain game and asks for it on more than a few occasions, not on a whim or because of a cool commercial,  then I say ok let's check that out next time we are at the store,  But if I bought everything my daughter asked for we wuld have no room in the house.  Literally, from ball pits, to pinball machines, air hockey tables etc.     So when do you say no Robin, if you are able to afford it but think it is too much? 
Meridith
 

--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:

From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:40 PM








> To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on
> chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our
> money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing
> us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance
> for chores thing.

For an unschooling perspective on this, read Joyce Fetterol's page:

http://joyfullyrejo ycing.com/ influencing% 20kid%20behavior /chores/tyingall owancetochores. html

> We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in
> the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one
> person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose
> something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by
> whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no
> allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note
> saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain
> amount.

The responsibility for keeping the house belongs to the adults. Yes,
you can ask for help. But kids are not here to do our jobs. We adults
don't get paid for housework, yet we do it because we want a certain
level of cleanliness or tidiness. To expect children to have the same
perspective as we do about how a home should look doesn't make sense.
Modelling how you would like things to be has more impact in the long
run.
>
>
> I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of
> work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts
> (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food,
> since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses.
> Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like
> expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether
> he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three
> pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

So, these are learning goals *you* have for him.

If it's a matter of not being able to afford what he wants right now,
you could help him find a way to save for it. Or you could save for
it. If you are just determining what is a want vs. a need makes his
desires unimportant, or worse, worthless. Calling what makes his life
happy as "debts" makes me cringe. As Schuyler said, not a relationship-
building situation.

Part of unschooling is helping our kids get what they want and need.
It doesn't mean we don't talk to them about the wisdom of purchases or
alternatives, but they should be able to choose the $75 jeans,
especially if they have had a chance to consider the choices. Deciding
for him what is a want, not a need, doesn't help him learn to make
good choices.
>
> I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I
> feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my
> boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think
> it's just a part of life.

Part of *your* life. It will be part of his life, eventually. Right
now, you are responsible, as the parent, for providing for him, not
making him work for what he wants. I don't know how that would
*teach* responsibility without resentment.
>
Robin B.

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Resnick

I agree. We sat down with Micah and asked him what he though (he's 14). He thought that everyone should participate in chores so that no one person had to do everything. After that discussion, he raised the question of an allowance, and he actually was the one who suggested pay for chores. But I agreed with his logic.

What is unnatural about contributing to the upkeep of your home and family? I would venture a guess that everyone on this list does something to contribute to the family whether it is income generating or not. Even if it's just vacuuming or doing the dishes. I know that we parents don't get paid to do those things, but Micah felt it was appropriate in his situation.


----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh




I think the difference between not feeling coerced by your boss versus feeling that paying your children a job based salary is innappropriate is that your relationship with your boss is clearly defined from the off as a work for pay deal. With your children the money for chores thing is something that you are adding to the mix in some sort of strange desire to set yourself up as their boss. You are creating an unnatural environment within your home. And damaging your relationship as their parent in the process.

Schuyler

To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance for chores thing. We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain amount.

I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food, since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses. Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think it's just a part of life.

Debbie (in Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meridith Richardson

true and natural it has been since the beginning of time where anthropology can show us how humans shared "chores" to make sure life continued.  I am a rawist because I think at our most natural of states that is how we ate.  I also think at appropriate times children will come to the point that they desire/need to be a part of subsistence.  If you feel your son is ready than I agree with your decision. 
Meridith


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Deborah Resnick <deborah.resnick@...> wrote:

From: Deborah Resnick <deborah.resnick@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:02 PM






I agree. We sat down with Micah and asked him what he though (he's 14). He thought that everyone should participate in chores so that no one person had to do everything. After that discussion, he raised the question of an allowance, and he actually was the one who suggested pay for chores. But I agreed with his logic.

What is unnatural about contributing to the upkeep of your home and family? I would venture a guess that everyone on this list does something to contribute to the family whether it is income generating or not. Even if it's just vacuuming or doing the dishes. I know that we parents don't get paid to do those things, but Micah felt it was appropriate in his situation.

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh

I think the difference between not feeling coerced by your boss versus feeling that paying your children a job based salary is innappropriate is that your relationship with your boss is clearly defined from the off as a work for pay deal. With your children the money for chores thing is something that you are adding to the mix in some sort of strange desire to set yourself up as their boss. You are creating an unnatural environment within your home. And damaging your relationship as their parent in the process.

Schuyler

To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing us money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance for chores thing. We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs to be done in the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If the chore one person wanted to do is already done, that person needs to choose something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be done by whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores, no allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain amount.

I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts (WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food, since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses. Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether he has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three pairs of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.

I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than I feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think it's just a part of life.

Debbie (in Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erin

Hi, Meridith! I don't know if what we do is totally in line with the
RU philosophy, but I'll share it anyway! We give our kids an
allowance every week. They get their allowance because they are part
of our family. We don't require them to do chores or behave in a
certain manner to "earn" their allowance.

My 14 year olds get $14 a week, my 12 year old gets $12 a week, and
on and on! I buy the children things like food and clothing, I pay
for any sport or other extra-curricular activities, and I also buy
them other things here and there when I can. Basically, by us giving
the kids an allowance, they have access to their portion of the
family income.

I do not buy every toy or item they ask for at the store. I simply
suggest we look to see how much money they have. If they have enough
money and they want the thing they're asking for enough...they buy
it. If they don't have enough money I help them figure out how long
it will be until they'll have enough money to buy it.

That is what we're doing. I don't think there is only one way to do
this. Every family and every situation is different. What works for
one family may or may not work for others. I think many of us are
living on one income and there is a budget we need to adhere to. I
like the idea of my kids having the ability to spend their money when
they want and how they want.




--- In [email protected], Meridith Richardson
<ruttegar@...> wrote:
>
> I think if he asks for ways to earn money that is fine.  Then
provide it if you can.  I don't think we have to hand out free money
to show our love.  BUt forcing him to do chores does not seem
appropriate for the environment.  I do all the house work here and
sometimes I have asked her to help clean her toys but if she does not
then I do it without yelling.  I hope at some point she will find joy
in helping others like i do.  But she has asked me, "how can I earn
some money.'  I said would you like to do some things I do around the
house and she said yes.  So I told her some options she did some and
I paid her.  Her choice, just like my choice to work.  Do you all who
oppose allowances hand out money to your kids for everything fun they
want, or do you only buy needs and occasional wants?
> Meridith
>
>
> --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful
parenting and help with dh
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 11:51 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think the difference between not feeling coerced by your boss
versus feeling that paying your children a job based salary is
innappropriate is that your relationship with your boss is clearly
defined from the off as a work for pay deal. With your children the
money for chores thing is something that you are adding to the mix in
some sort of strange desire to set yourself up as their boss. You are
creating an unnatural environment within your home. And damaging your
relationship as their parent in the process.
>
> Schuyler
>
> To the allowance issue - we do give Micah an allowance based on
chores. The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our
money, and that's the way the world works. No one is just handing us
money simply for being there. So I feel OK about the allowance for
chores thing. We all discussed it, and we have a list of what needs
to be done in the house. Each of us chooses which chores to do. If
the chore one person wanted to do is already done, that person needs
to choose something else. That way I'm not dictating what needs to be
done by whom, but everything gets done. If he doesn't do any chores,
no allowance for that day. We also pay on my paydays, with a note
saying what he gets and why he may or may not have gotten a certain
amount.
>
> I struggled with this a lot. I wanted him to learn the value of
work and money, and I wanted him to be responsible for his own debts
(WoW, XBox Live, etc.). I don't make him pay for clothing or food,
since we (DH and I) pool our money to cover all those expenses.
Unless, of course, he wants something he doesn't really need - like
expensive sneakers or $75 jeans. We base what he needs on whether he
has something that is a reasonable substitute. If he has three pairs
of sneakers, he doesn't need new ones, for example.
>
> I don't consider the allowance thing to be coercive, any more than
I feel coerced at the grocery store to pay for my purchases or by my
boss for having to come in to work to get the paycheck. I think it's
just a part of life.
>
> Debbie (in Indiana)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Robin Bentley

I didn't say "never say no." I also didn't say "buy them whatever they
want, whenever they want it." <g>

If you walk through Walmart and a child wants 7 or 8 different toys at
once EVERY TIME (does this happen in your house?), what do you do?
Perhaps, I would say "I have enough to buy x. How about we choose one
now and we'll put the others on your wish list. We can get them as
soon as we can." This honors a kid's desire for the item, and
expresses the parent's desire to help them get it. You could even pick
7 or 8 $1.00 items, if it's sheer volume she's looking for <g>.

If it happens every time and the visual stimulation of all those toys
is too much, can you go shopping without your daughter? You could even
pick up one of the desired items and bring it home, as a surprise one
day. How much fun would that be for her?

Has your daughter played pinball, played in ball pits, played air
hockey? Does she want to? You could find ways for her to experience
those things without having to buy them for your home.

I believe it's important to really think about whether "it's too much"
if you can afford it. Is it too much money? Is it too much stuff? Is
it too much for you? Motivation is good to explore.

And, as I said "It doesn't mean we don't talk to them about the wisdom
of purchases or alternatives." Maybe not when a child is melting down
at the store, if that happens, but some other opportunity. Help them
make choices and decisions. It will help the next time.

My daughter, now 13, is great to shop with now. She gets an allowance,
not tied to chores. We determined about how much we would normally
spend per month on things other than food and clothes and gave it to
her each pay day. When our income was reduced, we talked to her about
reducing her allowance. She was really cool with that. Sometimes, she
doesn't spend any of it. Sometimes, all of it. Sometimes, she asks for
an advance and if we can do it, we do.

Before we approached it this way, and she had a small allowance ($1
per age per week) when she was younger, it was difficult because
things she wanted were more expensive than, say, $7. She was not a
saver and nothing we did helped her do that. I would spend money on
things she wanted, try to make her feel guilty for it, while I felt
resentful that she couldn't stick to a budget. Who was I kidding? I
have trouble with that! So, we came up with the solution of giving
her generally what we'd spend anyway. It's so easy now.

With a decent amount of money that is her own, she makes her own
decisions, some good, some bad. But, she doesn't have me making her
decisions for her. I can give her my opinion. Sometimes, she takes my
advice, sometimes she doesn't. It makes for a more peaceful
relationship.

If there is a compelling reason to say no (ie. for safety reasons,
having to sell your house to accommodate the item <g>), children can
more easily understand that "no" than when a "no" comes seemingly
arbitrarily (at least from the child's perspective).

Robin B.

On Jan 5, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Meridith Richardson wrote:

>
> How do you tell a child no then? Will it not create a sense of
> entitlement in child if when you walk through walmart they want 7 or
> 8 different toys at once EVERY TIME, and you buy them. Why should I
> buy them for them on a whim? I don't see how that is a MUST for
> radical unschooling. If there is something she consistently wants
> then yes I try to provide those things for her. Meaning if she has
> to have a certain game and asks for it on more than a few occasions,
> not on a whim or because of a cool commercial, then I say ok let's
> check that out next time we are at the store, But if I bought
> everything my daughter asked for we wuld have no room in the house.
> Literally, from ball pits, to pinball machines, air hockey tables
> etc. So when do you say no Robin, if you are able to afford it
> but think it is too much?
> Meridith
>

Robin Bentley

On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Meridith Richardson wrote:

> true and natural it has been since the beginning of time where
> anthropology can show us how humans shared "chores" to make sure
> life continued. I am a rawist because I think at our most natural
> of states that is how we ate..

I'd like to hear what Schuyler has to say about this... :-)


> I also think at appropriate times children will come to the point
> that they desire/need to be a part of subsistence. If you feel your
> son is ready than I agree with your decision.

Sure, if her son is ready (and it seems from his suggestion that
everyone do chores and he's willing to do them ,that he is) that's
great. But, the fact that he only gets allowance if he does chores
just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He obviously would like some
money. Why not give him some, aside from household duties?

It requires a shift in perspective to see how this can work.

Check out this page:

http://sandradodd.com/chore/shift

Robin B.

>

Erin

I was reading your post and realized that what we're doing is what
you consider to be a "small allowance"! Just more proof that all of
our families and financial situations are different...it actually
made me smile! We have 6 kids, so we're giving out nearly $70 a week
in allowance, but it is considered to be a "small allowance" by
some. It really all depends on a family's income and how many family
members there are :)

Erin

--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
> I didn't say "never say no." I also didn't say "buy them whatever
they
> want, whenever they want it." <g>
>
> If you walk through Walmart and a child wants 7 or 8 different toys
at
> once EVERY TIME (does this happen in your house?), what do you do?
> Perhaps, I would say "I have enough to buy x. How about we choose
one
> now and we'll put the others on your wish list. We can get them as
> soon as we can." This honors a kid's desire for the item, and
> expresses the parent's desire to help them get it. You could even
pick
> 7 or 8 $1.00 items, if it's sheer volume she's looking for <g>.
>
> If it happens every time and the visual stimulation of all those
toys
> is too much, can you go shopping without your daughter? You could
even
> pick up one of the desired items and bring it home, as a surprise
one
> day. How much fun would that be for her?
>
> Has your daughter played pinball, played in ball pits, played air
> hockey? Does she want to? You could find ways for her to
experience
> those things without having to buy them for your home.
>
> I believe it's important to really think about whether "it's too
much"
> if you can afford it. Is it too much money? Is it too much stuff?
Is
> it too much for you? Motivation is good to explore.
>
> And, as I said "It doesn't mean we don't talk to them about the
wisdom
> of purchases or alternatives." Maybe not when a child is melting
down
> at the store, if that happens, but some other opportunity. Help
them
> make choices and decisions. It will help the next time.
>
> My daughter, now 13, is great to shop with now. She gets an
allowance,
> not tied to chores. We determined about how much we would normally
> spend per month on things other than food and clothes and gave it
to
> her each pay day. When our income was reduced, we talked to her
about
> reducing her allowance. She was really cool with that. Sometimes,
she
> doesn't spend any of it. Sometimes, all of it. Sometimes, she asks
for
> an advance and if we can do it, we do.
>
> Before we approached it this way, and she had a small allowance
($1
> per age per week) when she was younger, it was difficult because
> things she wanted were more expensive than, say, $7. She was not a
> saver and nothing we did helped her do that. I would spend money
on
> things she wanted, try to make her feel guilty for it, while I
felt
> resentful that she couldn't stick to a budget. Who was I kidding?
I
> have trouble with that! So, we came up with the solution of
giving
> her generally what we'd spend anyway. It's so easy now.
>
> With a decent amount of money that is her own, she makes her own
> decisions, some good, some bad. But, she doesn't have me making
her
> decisions for her. I can give her my opinion. Sometimes, she takes
my
> advice, sometimes she doesn't. It makes for a more peaceful
> relationship.
>
> If there is a compelling reason to say no (ie. for safety reasons,
> having to sell your house to accommodate the item <g>), children
can
> more easily understand that "no" than when a "no" comes seemingly
> arbitrarily (at least from the child's perspective).
>
> Robin B.
>
> On Jan 5, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Meridith Richardson wrote:
>
> >
> > How do you tell a child no then? Will it not create a sense of
> > entitlement in child if when you walk through walmart they want 7
or
> > 8 different toys at once EVERY TIME, and you buy them. Why
should I
> > buy them for them on a whim? I don't see how that is a MUST for
> > radical unschooling. If there is something she consistently
wants
> > then yes I try to provide those things for her. Meaning if she
has
> > to have a certain game and asks for it on more than a few
occasions,
> > not on a whim or because of a cool commercial, then I say ok
let's
> > check that out next time we are at the store, But if I bought
> > everything my daughter asked for we wuld have no room in the
house.
> > Literally, from ball pits, to pinball machines, air hockey
tables
> > etc. So when do you say no Robin, if you are able to afford
it
> > but think it is too much?
> > Meridith
> >
>

Schuyler

Simon and Linnaea each get an allowance of 7 pounds a week. It used to be 8 but they wanted to each sponser an endangered animal for the other, so Linnaea sponsers Simon's tiger and Simon sponsers Linnaea's orangutan. I also buy things that I can afford that I think they will enjoy. I pay for two WoW accounts, I pay for headphones for Simon so that he can listen to the computer in the same room as the television, they seem to break fairly regularly, and I replace them, I buy their clothes and pay for outings. Their money is completely discretionary. They get to choose what they do with it.

I decided that I didn't like holding all the cards when it came to money and purchases. I decided that I wanted them to have power over what they bought and what they saved for and what they didn't really want. And I still like getting things for them, so when I feel flush enough, I get things that I choose or that I know they'd like.

The money isn't free. They totally understand that their dad works for money. They also understand that money is how we pay for things. To heat the house, to pay the rent, to have a tuna sandwich, it all takes money. They don't live in a vacuum without any awareness of how things work. The other day we went into to town to get video games with their Christmas money. Simon knew precisely what he wanted, having watched youtube Let's Plays of different games to see what he would like and having looked at reviews at Gamespot.com. Linnaea had really enjoyed Fable 2, so she and I went looking for games that were similar, doing a lot of research for the kind of evil to good continuum that Fable has as well as looking for a game with a dog for a pet. Turns out Fallout 3 has both those things. Anyhow, so we were in town at the game store looking through all the games and I noticed that they had a Sims 2 expansion pack that she didn't have and pointed it out. She
picked it up and looked at it and then said "You know, I want it, but I don't want it right now. Not more than I want the other game," and she put it back. These are not people who spend money as if it were free.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: Meridith Richardson <ruttegar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 5 January, 2009 5:53:37 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh


I think if he asks for ways to earn money that is fine. Then provide it if you can. I don't think we have to hand out free money to show our love. BUt forcing him to do chores does not seem appropriate for the environment. I do all the house work here and sometimes I have asked her to help clean her toys but if she does not then I do it without yelling. I hope at some point she will find joy in helping others like i do. But she has asked me, "how can I earn some money.' I said would you like to do some things I do around the house and she said yes. So I told her some options she did some and I paid her. Her choice, just like my choice to work. Do you all who oppose allowances hand out money to your kids for everything fun they want, or do you only buy needs and occasional wants?
Meridith

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

Yes, for sure it depends! $1 per age per week is a good starting
point, and similar, I think, to what Sandra Dodd did with her kids. We
only have one child. For her and our situation, something more than
that was appropriate.

YMMV!

Robin B.

On Jan 5, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Erin wrote:

> I was reading your post and realized that what we're doing is what
> you consider to be a "small allowance"! Just more proof that all of
> our families and financial situations are different...it actually
> made me smile! We have 6 kids, so we're giving out nearly $70 a week
> in allowance, but it is considered to be a "small allowance" by
> some. It really all depends on a family's income and how many family
> members there are :)
>
> Erin

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Naruto is 6 and Gigi will be 3 in the end of the month. Today we had panned to go to Walmart get some more moon sand 
so we could build a castle.
I had $20 in my wallet, and the moon sand is $6. We are really really tight in money right now and have talked to the kids about it.
Just outside the parking lot there was a homeless man holding a sign and the kids asked what was written on it.
I told them that the man did not have money and that he was homeless. Gigi was the first one to say :" Can we build him a home?"
We decided to buy the gentleman some food and give it too him since Gigi said we should give him Naruto's hamburger.
So we go in and right at the door there is Disney Princesses' Pez set. My kids have been into Pez lately and Cinderella is too much for my little girl to resist.  I ask the kids:
IF I buy the Pez than I cannot by the man some food. Both my kids wanted to buy the man food and were OK not buying their Pez.
We came out and the man was gone when we drove by. They were not disappointed. They were worried about were the man went and if he was going to be cold at night because:" Everyone needs a home" The never said ;" Well we should have bought the Pez"
They know I will buy them the Pez when I can.
By the way the Pez set was $14.76 with one of each Princess ( Like 8 or 9)If it was less I had the money I would have gotten it for them.
Kids that get "everything " they want do not became little brats who feel entlited.
My kids are awesome about getting things or NOT getting things because they know we are on their side.
In 2006 my son Naruto asked for a Nintendo DS for ME his mom for his Christmas present. He was 4 and a half years old.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen

This reminds me of a comment my mom made a couple of weeks ago.  She said something to the effect of even though she could pretty much buy my niece (6) anything she wanted, she didn't want my niece to know that.  She believes it is important for my niece to "know the value of hard work"

It is so different from how I want my kids to feel.  I want Megan and Zoe to feel as if I can help them to achieve what they want.  I want my kids to know that I'm on their side and not standing by waiting to teach them a lesson.

Over the weekend, I was looking at a website project called "101 Things in 1,001 Days".  I thought it was a cool idea.  I was getting ready to start my list when Megan asked what I was doing.  She liked the idea too and came up with 101 things in about an hour.  Twelve items on her list were "things she wanted to buy".  The rest of the list is filled with places she wants to go and things she wants to do.  Some of them are going to be easy (put on a puppet show, see a ballet) and some are going to be a fun challenge to fulfill (work in a bakery, go fossil hunting, work in kiosk in the mall), and some might not happen at all (fifteen items involve international travel) - but I am so excited to help her list come alive.

Gwen


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Meridith Richardson <ruttegar@...> wrote:
How do you tell a child no then?  Will it not create a sense of entitlement
in child if when you walk through walmart they want 7 or 8 different toys at
once EVERY TIME, and you buy them.  Why should I buy them for them on a whim? 
I don't see how that is a MUST for radical unschooling.  If there is
something she consistently wants then yes I try to provide those things for
her.  Meaning if she has to have a certain game and asks for it on more than a
few occasions, not on a whim or because of a cool commercial,  then I say ok
let's check that out next time we are at the store,  But if I bought
everything my daughter asked for we wuld have no room in the house.  Literally,
from ball pits, to pinball machines, air hockey tables etc.     So when do
you say no Robin, if you are able to afford it but think it is too much? 
Meridith





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

John Bock, an anthropologist who is at Cal State University at Fullerton, did some work on children's utility at the chores they might do. It was his Ph.D. dissertation work. I can remember sitting in his house watching slides of children of the Okavango Delta Peoples of Botswana trying to crush mongongo nuts to compare how many they could crush in an hour versus an untrained adult. He looked at how much food they could gather compared with how much caloric output their somewhat clumsy fishing and other kinds of gathering produced. He found that they were more of a burden than an assistance. Certainly at younger ages children's work was much more about keeping them busy than it was about accruing resources to extend a family's ability to survive.
Which is like the little bit I can remember from Dr. Spock's Baby and
Childcare book when he wrote about taking your toddler for a walk and how you should expect a block to take an hour given all the potential distractions along the path.

Ooh, here's a relevant quote from a paper (http://anthro.fullerton.edu/jbock/BockJohnson.pdf) looking at subsistance ecology and play:

This leads us to expect that a household’s participation in
agriculture will decrease the amount of time spent in play, since there is
substantial evidence in this (Bock 2002b) and other traditional communities
(Blurton Jones et al. 1989; Bulatao and Arnold 1977; Cain 1977; Caldwell
1982; Lee and Kramer 2002; see Kaplan and Bock 2001b for a review)
that children are more able to contribute to the household economy in
farming subsistence ecologies than in foraging or herding.

It suggests that it is only recently that we've been handing out chores to ensure subsistance. It might challenge a rawist approach to chores given that chores may have only been around as long as cooking (so 250,000 years), actually, not even that long.

All of this reminds of Rob Walker's work on hunting proficiency among
boys and men of the Ache of Paraguay. He found that Ache hunters were
at their hunting peak at between 37 and 42 years of age
(http://www.eva.mpg.de/ipse/staff/walker/pdfs/achehunt.pdf). Children don't help a lot when hunting with their uncles.

John Bock wrote a paper (Evolutionary Demography and Intrahousehold Time Allocation:School Attendance and Child Labor Among the Okavango Delta Peoples of Botswana) that had this in it's summary:

Perhaps most significant for policy implications
is that whether or not a specific
child would benefit from attending school
was not a significant predictor of school attendance.
Rather, the degree to which parents'
own reproductive interests were
served was the primary predictor of which
children attended school.
(http://anthro.fullerton.edu/jbock/BockAJHB.pdf)

To rephrase, parents were manipulating their children's labor and education to suit the parents' needs. I consider myself really lucky to not have to do that. I get to choose to give Simon and Linnaea the freedom of my reproductive interests so that they can choose the things that will most benefit themselves. I don't need to pull them away from those things that will give them their best outcome in order to have my needs met.

Schuyler





________________________________
From: Meridith Richardson <ruttegar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 5 January, 2009 8:42:00 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Moving toward more peaceful parenting and help with dh


true and natural it has been since the beginning of time where anthropology can show us how humans shared "chores" to make sure life continued. I am a rawist because I think at our most natural of states that is how we ate. I also think at appropriate times children will come to the point that they desire/need to be a part of subsistence. If you feel your son is ready than I agree with your decision.
Meridith





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

> The rationale behind it is that both DH and I work for our money, and
that's the way the world works.

My Dh is the at home parent, he brings in no income. He does the
housework - does that mean that I'm paying him for the work he does/he's
"earning" the cash he chooses to spend now and again for items he might
want? Should it be withheld if he doesn't get the dishes done one day or
I take out the trash instead of him? If the money DH spends for things
he might want (the occasional gadget or gizmo whatever) is not payment
for services rendered, why would I tie DS' spending money to services
rendered simply because he's under 18? DS clearly understands where the
money comes from - he's even visited me at work and knows what I do. He
knows that in order to have any of the money we have, I get up early in
the morning and go to work and come home around dinnertime. He knows
that I can't just stay home whenever I want - there is an allotted
number of sick days and vacation days I have available and after that, I
can have money held back from my pay.

Deb R


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