Anyone unschooling abroad?
ejeosann
Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone is living outside their home country, and if
so if anyone knows what legal requirements are involved with
homeschooling...
We're living in China, and unschooling our 2 daughters (4yo & 9yo).
Its our first year at this, and I've looked into our state
requirements (Colorado), but I don't find any information about what
to do if we're not actually living in CO.. and not planning to move
back withing the next several years.
Any info would be much appreciated! Thanks!
Em
Just wondering if anyone is living outside their home country, and if
so if anyone knows what legal requirements are involved with
homeschooling...
We're living in China, and unschooling our 2 daughters (4yo & 9yo).
Its our first year at this, and I've looked into our state
requirements (Colorado), but I don't find any information about what
to do if we're not actually living in CO.. and not planning to move
back withing the next several years.
Any info would be much appreciated! Thanks!
Em
cecegary
Hi Em,
According to HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association). Foreigners
living abroad, who retain their U.S. citizenship, simply follow the
rules of the last state in which they resided. No additional
paperwork to file or rules to follow. :)
Where are you in China?
Chelsea
--- In [email protected], "ejeosann"
<smallsmallworld@...> wrote:
According to HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association). Foreigners
living abroad, who retain their U.S. citizenship, simply follow the
rules of the last state in which they resided. No additional
paperwork to file or rules to follow. :)
Where are you in China?
Chelsea
--- In [email protected], "ejeosann"
<smallsmallworld@...> wrote:
>if
> Hi all,
> Just wondering if anyone is living outside their home country, and
> so if anyone knows what legal requirements are involved with
> homeschooling...
>
> We're living in China, and unschooling our 2 daughters (4yo & 9yo).
> Its our first year at this, and I've looked into our state
> requirements (Colorado), but I don't find any information about what
> to do if we're not actually living in CO.. and not planning to move
> back withing the next several years.
>
> Any info would be much appreciated! Thanks!
> Em
>
Pamela Sorooshian
That's nonsense. Once you've moved out of the state, they have no more
jurisdiction over you (and it doesn't matter if you still own a house
there, if your kids don't live in that state then you don't have to
follow that state's education code).
There is no "national" education law. If your kids don't live in the
United States, they are not subject to the laws of any U.S. state. The
country you ARE living in may consider you visitors and not require
you to obey their laws either. In that case - lucky you - you're
independent. If someone from another country comes to the United
States to live (not just for vacation), they legally are supposed to
follow the education laws of the state in which they live.
-pam
jurisdiction over you (and it doesn't matter if you still own a house
there, if your kids don't live in that state then you don't have to
follow that state's education code).
There is no "national" education law. If your kids don't live in the
United States, they are not subject to the laws of any U.S. state. The
country you ARE living in may consider you visitors and not require
you to obey their laws either. In that case - lucky you - you're
independent. If someone from another country comes to the United
States to live (not just for vacation), they legally are supposed to
follow the education laws of the state in which they live.
-pam
On Nov 28, 2008, at 7:22 AM, cecegary wrote:
> According to HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association). Foreigners
> living abroad, who retain their U.S. citizenship, simply follow the
> rules of the last state in which they resided. No additional
> paperwork to file or rules to follow. :)
cecegary
Well, Em, there you go. Two different opinions.
But personally, I would follow the advice of attorneys (HSLDA) who
deal with these kinds of matters everyday, than some random personal
opinion of how it should be. If you never planned to return to the
U.S., or if your kids were not planning to attend college in the
U.S., then you might not be concerned with following the rules. But
you mentioned in your original email that you were going to return in
a few years.
Remember, just because you leave the U.S. doesn't mean you don't pay
taxes (as a U.S. citizen) either. We don't have to like it, but
that's how it is. Just another example of how U.S. laws (fed and
state) can affect you even after you leave the country.
My two cents.
Chelsea
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
But personally, I would follow the advice of attorneys (HSLDA) who
deal with these kinds of matters everyday, than some random personal
opinion of how it should be. If you never planned to return to the
U.S., or if your kids were not planning to attend college in the
U.S., then you might not be concerned with following the rules. But
you mentioned in your original email that you were going to return in
a few years.
Remember, just because you leave the U.S. doesn't mean you don't pay
taxes (as a U.S. citizen) either. We don't have to like it, but
that's how it is. Just another example of how U.S. laws (fed and
state) can affect you even after you leave the country.
My two cents.
Chelsea
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>more
> That's nonsense. Once you've moved out of the state, they have no
> jurisdiction over you (and it doesn't matter if you still own ahouse
> there, if your kids don't live in that state then you don't haveto
> follow that state's education code).the
>
> There is no "national" education law. If your kids don't live in
> United States, they are not subject to the laws of any U.S. state.The
> country you ARE living in may consider you visitors and notrequire
> you to obey their laws either. In that case - lucky you - you'reto
> independent. If someone from another country comes to the United
> States to live (not just for vacation), they legally are supposed
> follow the education laws of the state in which they live.Foreigners
>
> -pam
>
> On Nov 28, 2008, at 7:22 AM, cecegary wrote:
>
> > According to HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association).
> > living abroad, who retain their U.S. citizenship, simply followthe
> > rules of the last state in which they resided. No additional
> > paperwork to file or rules to follow. :)
>
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 1, 2008, at 3:07 PM, cecegary wrote:
Education Network and a former board member of the HomeSchool
Association of California. I've worked with homeschool attorneys and
been involved with a number of legal cases. I've followed homeschool
law for many years, read and discussed the laws in every single state,
worked with groups in quite a few different states. I've had lengthy
discussions directly with an HSLDA attorney in the past and I once
debated an HSLDA attorney and their head researcher at the annual
meetings of the American Education Association.
I'm doubtful that HSDLA is recommending that people obey laws of
states in which they do not any longer reside. I'd like to see that
recommendation in writing. But, I have to say that it is true that,
historically, HSLDA has been known to advise their clients to over-
comply with laws - to provide more than the law legally requires and I
would never just take their advice without researching for myself.
This is not a random personal opinion. If you don't LIVE in a state,
that state has no jurisdiction over your children. If I move to Japan
or France or Mexico or any other country, the state of California,
where I currently reside, cannot follow me to that foreign country and
compel me to follow their state education code.
And, yes, they CAN compel me to pay taxes but only on income earned in
that state and on property owned in that state.
I spent some time searching HSLDA's site to see if they actually were
recommending people follow a state law when they don't live in the
state. Could not find it. I did find this, though, which is part of
their recommendations to military families who reside in Germany
(where homeschooling is currently illegal):
<Mandatory school attendance laws are creations of state legislatures.
Such laws are common throughout the United States and Germany. The
children of US military and DoD civilian personnel assigned to
Germany, however, are not subject to state mandatory attendance
statutes of the US because the children do not reside in any of the
fifty states.>>
They go on to say that children of military or civilian DoD families
are not subject to the mandatory attendance laws of the country
they're living in because of formal "status of forces" agreements, but
that the children of other US citizens residing in other countries may
be subject to the laws of that country.
My husband is not a citizen of this country. Do you think HSDLA would
recommend that our children be educated according to the laws of the
country he comes from?
-pam
> But personally, I would follow the advice of attorneys (HSLDA) whoOuch. I'm a founding member of the board of the National Home
> deal with these kinds of matters everyday, than some random personal
> opinion of how it should be.
Education Network and a former board member of the HomeSchool
Association of California. I've worked with homeschool attorneys and
been involved with a number of legal cases. I've followed homeschool
law for many years, read and discussed the laws in every single state,
worked with groups in quite a few different states. I've had lengthy
discussions directly with an HSLDA attorney in the past and I once
debated an HSLDA attorney and their head researcher at the annual
meetings of the American Education Association.
I'm doubtful that HSDLA is recommending that people obey laws of
states in which they do not any longer reside. I'd like to see that
recommendation in writing. But, I have to say that it is true that,
historically, HSLDA has been known to advise their clients to over-
comply with laws - to provide more than the law legally requires and I
would never just take their advice without researching for myself.
This is not a random personal opinion. If you don't LIVE in a state,
that state has no jurisdiction over your children. If I move to Japan
or France or Mexico or any other country, the state of California,
where I currently reside, cannot follow me to that foreign country and
compel me to follow their state education code.
And, yes, they CAN compel me to pay taxes but only on income earned in
that state and on property owned in that state.
I spent some time searching HSLDA's site to see if they actually were
recommending people follow a state law when they don't live in the
state. Could not find it. I did find this, though, which is part of
their recommendations to military families who reside in Germany
(where homeschooling is currently illegal):
<Mandatory school attendance laws are creations of state legislatures.
Such laws are common throughout the United States and Germany. The
children of US military and DoD civilian personnel assigned to
Germany, however, are not subject to state mandatory attendance
statutes of the US because the children do not reside in any of the
fifty states.>>
They go on to say that children of military or civilian DoD families
are not subject to the mandatory attendance laws of the country
they're living in because of formal "status of forces" agreements, but
that the children of other US citizens residing in other countries may
be subject to the laws of that country.
My husband is not a citizen of this country. Do you think HSDLA would
recommend that our children be educated according to the laws of the
country he comes from?
-pam
Debra Rossing
I believe US dependents stationed abroad are covered under the DoDDS
educational regulations rather than either the state they lived in back
in the US or the laws of the country they currently reside in. Even the
HSLDA website has a separate section for military and I believe the
DoDDS regs have a separate section for homeschooling which is pretty
mild (more regulation than CT, less regulation than NY)
Deb R
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educational regulations rather than either the state they lived in back
in the US or the laws of the country they currently reside in. Even the
HSLDA website has a separate section for military and I believe the
DoDDS regs have a separate section for homeschooling which is pretty
mild (more regulation than CT, less regulation than NY)
Deb R
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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
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Pamela Sorooshian
That depends on the country. The US has agreements with NATO nations,
for example, that make the DoD families not subject to the laws of
those countries, but just the DoD education regulations (which allow
homeschooling, by the way). But other residents (not DoD) are subject
to the laws of the country in which they reside, even if they are
citizens of the US. Again, though, they are not subject to the laws of
the state they moved out of.
-pam
for example, that make the DoD families not subject to the laws of
those countries, but just the DoD education regulations (which allow
homeschooling, by the way). But other residents (not DoD) are subject
to the laws of the country in which they reside, even if they are
citizens of the US. Again, though, they are not subject to the laws of
the state they moved out of.
-pam
On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Debra Rossing wrote:
> I believe US dependents stationed abroad are covered under the DoDDS
> educational regulations rather than either the state they lived in
> back
> in the US or the laws of the country they currently reside in. Even
> the
> HSLDA website has a separate section for military and I believe the
> DoDDS regs have a separate section for homeschooling which is pretty
> mild (more regulation than CT, less regulation than NY)
bonniecrocker2003
Yes, I'm unschooling abroad. My family has lived in Germany since
2004 and we may have to go back next year but trying real hard to
stay and continue traveling. My husband is civilian.
We are covered under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)between US
and Germany. Homeschooling is very simple. There are no reporting
requirements or regulations that restrict the freedom of
homeschoolers. There is no testing, no forms, no oversight. We are
entitled to auxiliary services provided by DODD if we so wish. We are
not subject to the host country's compulsory attendance laws or any
educational laws pertaining to the host country.
I'm from SC and as far as they are concerned, I don't even exist.
All they care about is that I continue to pay taxes to the state and
my yearly personal property taxes for land that I own. Even if they
had some type of law that said I had to report to them, I wouldn't
abide by it. How on earth would they enforce that?
I'm in my own little world in Germany. No one knows what I do and I
have little support but I prefer to be left alone. I wish I had
other unschoolers but it hasn't happened so I get my support online.
2004 and we may have to go back next year but trying real hard to
stay and continue traveling. My husband is civilian.
We are covered under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)between US
and Germany. Homeschooling is very simple. There are no reporting
requirements or regulations that restrict the freedom of
homeschoolers. There is no testing, no forms, no oversight. We are
entitled to auxiliary services provided by DODD if we so wish. We are
not subject to the host country's compulsory attendance laws or any
educational laws pertaining to the host country.
I'm from SC and as far as they are concerned, I don't even exist.
All they care about is that I continue to pay taxes to the state and
my yearly personal property taxes for land that I own. Even if they
had some type of law that said I had to report to them, I wouldn't
abide by it. How on earth would they enforce that?
I'm in my own little world in Germany. No one knows what I do and I
have little support but I prefer to be left alone. I wish I had
other unschoolers but it hasn't happened so I get my support online.
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: bonniecrocker2003 <bonniecrocker2003@...>
I'm in my own little world in Germany. No one knows what I do and I
have little support but I prefer to be left alone. I wish I had
other unschoolers but it hasn't happened so I get my support online.
-=-=-=-
Do you know about the unerzogen group? I guess not. <g>
http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/unerzogen/
They have a website:
www.unerzogen.de/
and a very slick magazine:
www.unerzogen-magazin.de/
German crowd, but many speak English and get together regularly. If they have school-aged children, the children must be in school; but they still work to live by unschooling principles regardless.
The owner of the group and websites is Johanna. She's on this list, but I don't know whether she reads much now. The group has gotten pretty large and busy there! They have 411 members on the yahoogroup, and almost all are in Germany or neighboring countries (I think I'm one of the few living in the states, but I only read very occasionally).
Join. I know Johanna's English is very, VERY good. I'm sure they would love to meet---and meet UP with---you!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: bonniecrocker2003 <bonniecrocker2003@...>
I'm in my own little world in Germany. No one knows what I do and I
have little support but I prefer to be left alone. I wish I had
other unschoolers but it hasn't happened so I get my support online.
-=-=-=-
Do you know about the unerzogen group? I guess not. <g>
http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/unerzogen/
They have a website:
www.unerzogen.de/
and a very slick magazine:
www.unerzogen-magazin.de/
German crowd, but many speak English and get together regularly. If they have school-aged children, the children must be in school; but they still work to live by unschooling principles regardless.
The owner of the group and websites is Johanna. She's on this list, but I don't know whether she reads much now. The group has gotten pretty large and busy there! They have 411 members on the yahoogroup, and almost all are in Germany or neighboring countries (I think I'm one of the few living in the states, but I only read very occasionally).
Join. I know Johanna's English is very, VERY good. I'm sure they would love to meet---and meet UP with---you!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bonniecrocker2003
>ago and I got scared off because of the languge barrier. I'm going
> Do you know about the unerzogen group? I guess not. <g>
>
> http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/unerzogen/
>
>Thanks Kelly. You actually did tell me about this group some time
to try again. I asked to join yesterday but haven't heard anything.
I figured it can help me improve my German and I can use the
translation services if they allow me to join.
I tried contacting Johanna via one of the forums a long time ago but
I don't think she saw my post and I forgot about it.
I appreciate the info. again. I do prefer to be left alone by others
because I don't care to discuss why we do what we do, especially
since I know most don't get it. However, I certainly wouldn't mind
having support of those who do get it. That would be wonderful.
I've lost quite a bit of patience since I've been over here due to a
couple of experiences. I've become too much of a deep thinker and it
irritates me lol I just find that having discussions with people can
be frustrating because most never ever examine why they do
anything....just keep perpetuating the myths. I have to make sure I
don't turn into an arrogant SOB.
Any way thanks for the great information. I'll try real hard to take
advantage of it this time.
ejeosann
Hi all,
to answer my own question, I've created a new Yahoo Group called Worldschoolers
You're all welcome to join to post resources about your area for those that may be traveling
your way with their unschooling/homeschooling families!! The more members and info the
better, so if this interests you, please join and post some resources!
Thanks!
Em
Group Description:
This group is open to families who consider the world their classroom. If you are a parent
that is living outside your home country, or in your home country and like to travel (even in
your nearby area!), home-schooling or unschooling, and you want to connect with other
families in the world who are doing the same thing, this is the place to do it! This is a great
place to post your ideas, activities, fun places for homeschooling families to travel, what to
bring, where to go, things to do that add joy and enrich the lives and of our children and
entire family! Please use this group to post resources about your area for those that may be
traveling your way with their unschooling/homeschooling/worldschooling families!! ***
Please title your posts by the COUNTRY and AREA (nearest city) that your post pertains to*
to answer my own question, I've created a new Yahoo Group called Worldschoolers
You're all welcome to join to post resources about your area for those that may be traveling
your way with their unschooling/homeschooling families!! The more members and info the
better, so if this interests you, please join and post some resources!
Thanks!
Em
Group Description:
This group is open to families who consider the world their classroom. If you are a parent
that is living outside your home country, or in your home country and like to travel (even in
your nearby area!), home-schooling or unschooling, and you want to connect with other
families in the world who are doing the same thing, this is the place to do it! This is a great
place to post your ideas, activities, fun places for homeschooling families to travel, what to
bring, where to go, things to do that add joy and enrich the lives and of our children and
entire family! Please use this group to post resources about your area for those that may be
traveling your way with their unschooling/homeschooling/worldschooling families!! ***
Please title your posts by the COUNTRY and AREA (nearest city) that your post pertains to*