need advice on bedtime issues
DJ250
Hi, Folks,
Our dds, 7 and 9, have been given the freedom to choose when to go to sleep. We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time alone after around 9 so the kids go upstairs and I read them their story. Then, we've asked that they play quietly out of respect for us downstairs. Dh is getting frustrated that he has to keep asking them repeatedly each night to settle down. Last night, he told them he was tired of this and told them to go to bed. What to do? I'd like to show dh that giving the girls freedom is actually beneficial but this situation isn't helping.
Thanks,
~Melissa :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Our dds, 7 and 9, have been given the freedom to choose when to go to sleep. We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time alone after around 9 so the kids go upstairs and I read them their story. Then, we've asked that they play quietly out of respect for us downstairs. Dh is getting frustrated that he has to keep asking them repeatedly each night to settle down. Last night, he told them he was tired of this and told them to go to bed. What to do? I'd like to show dh that giving the girls freedom is actually beneficial but this situation isn't helping.
Thanks,
~Melissa :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 18, 2008, at 8:16 PM, DJ250 wrote:
-- parents wanting alone time -- and then imposing a solution on the
kids. The problem then shifts from alone time to making the kids
comply with the imposed solution.
If your husband wanted to read alone after 10 every night and decided
you should be in your room so the house was quiet for him, how would
that solution feel to you?
Meeting needs by taking from someone else -- eg, taking the kids'
freedom to play outside their room -- are pretty much destined to fail.
I think the original problem needs reapproached and new solutions
generated. The biggest problem, though, is parents expecting kids to
be like toys the parents can put away when it's convenient for the
parents. It's going to tear at all your relationships with each other
when kids then act like kids and don't want to be turned off when
parents are done playing! ;-) No matter how ingrained in adults the
expectation is that parents can get what they want by telling the
kids to do what the parents say, no one has ever gotten it to work
without breaking down some of the relationship between parents and kids.
As difficult as this time seems right now, the more you nurture the
relationship, the fewer times you take from the relationship to make
right now convenient for you, the easier it will be when they're
teens and they have the ability to say "Screw you!" and storm off
into the night.
You'll make your life much much easier if you work with you kids now
rather than against them.
I bet there are people here with solutions that worked for them that
you never would have thought of :-) But it's not going to look like
kids quietly playing upstairs in their rooms each night at 9 while
you watch TV. That one you're going to have to let go of ;-) You
*might* though be able to negotiate an occasional night like that
when the kids know you're on their side, helping them get their needs
met.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Our dds, 7 and 9, have been given the freedom to choose when to goThis is pretty much destined to failure since it's taking a problem
> to sleep. We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time
> alone after around 9 so the kids go upstairs and I read them their
> story. Then, we've asked that they play quietly out of respect for
> us downstairs.
-- parents wanting alone time -- and then imposing a solution on the
kids. The problem then shifts from alone time to making the kids
comply with the imposed solution.
If your husband wanted to read alone after 10 every night and decided
you should be in your room so the house was quiet for him, how would
that solution feel to you?
Meeting needs by taking from someone else -- eg, taking the kids'
freedom to play outside their room -- are pretty much destined to fail.
I think the original problem needs reapproached and new solutions
generated. The biggest problem, though, is parents expecting kids to
be like toys the parents can put away when it's convenient for the
parents. It's going to tear at all your relationships with each other
when kids then act like kids and don't want to be turned off when
parents are done playing! ;-) No matter how ingrained in adults the
expectation is that parents can get what they want by telling the
kids to do what the parents say, no one has ever gotten it to work
without breaking down some of the relationship between parents and kids.
As difficult as this time seems right now, the more you nurture the
relationship, the fewer times you take from the relationship to make
right now convenient for you, the easier it will be when they're
teens and they have the ability to say "Screw you!" and storm off
into the night.
You'll make your life much much easier if you work with you kids now
rather than against them.
I bet there are people here with solutions that worked for them that
you never would have thought of :-) But it's not going to look like
kids quietly playing upstairs in their rooms each night at 9 while
you watch TV. That one you're going to have to let go of ;-) You
*might* though be able to negotiate an occasional night like that
when the kids know you're on their side, helping them get their needs
met.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erin
Have you guys tried giving them suggestions of what they CAN do? In
my little opinion it's okay to say "IF you can be quiet...THEN you
can stay up". But that also means IF you can't be quiet...then you
can't stay up. One little warning that what they're doing isn't
quiet and then the second time it's off to bed. They can try again
the next night.
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html
my little opinion it's okay to say "IF you can be quiet...THEN you
can stay up". But that also means IF you can't be quiet...then you
can't stay up. One little warning that what they're doing isn't
quiet and then the second time it's off to bed. They can try again
the next night.
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html
--- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Folks,
>
> Our dds, 7 and 9, have been given the freedom to choose when to go
to sleep. We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time alone
after around 9 so the kids go upstairs and I read them their story.
Then, we've asked that they play quietly out of respect for us
downstairs. Dh is getting frustrated that he has to keep asking them
repeatedly each night to settle down. Last night, he told them he
was tired of this and told them to go to bed. What to do? I'd like
to show dh that giving the girls freedom is actually beneficial but
this situation isn't helping.
>
> Thanks,
> ~Melissa :)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Debra Rossing
We've only got one offspring and more kids = more volume no matter what (same as when you get two or more adults together - I've even noticed that the room seems louder when DH and DS come in than when I'm in a room by myself, even if all they're doing is sitting there quietly watching TV with me). What we've done is discuss the situation as a family, looking for family solutions. We told DS that mommy and daddy like to spend some time privately before mommy falls asleep (I WOH fulltime and I'm here at work before 8 am Mon-Fri, being awake past about 10:30 is a stretch). He's free to be downstairs in the living room watching TV or playing on his laptop or whatever or he can be in his room or some of both. We've, together, determined a workable TV volume (oh, parenthetically, SIL lives with us and her bed is against the wall that is back to back with the TV) for after 10 pm. DS knocks before he enters, just as we model knocking before entering his room if he's in there and the door is closed (or mostly closed). Sometimes, he NEEDS to be snuggled up with us, and we do that. However, he also knows that he's getting really too big to fit - mommy gets squashed between him and daddy and doesn't sleep well (grumpy mommy the next day). More often, he'll come snuggle for a bit then either go downstairs to play or ask me to tuck him into his bed. (Full disclosure: he has a TV/DVD in his room and his laptop is, well, a laptop that can be wherever he wants it). As Joyce noted, rather than making your need your kids' problem to deal with, it is a family situation and needs family input. Maybe it would work better if you got up early with DH while the kids are still asleep. Maybe it would work for you and DH to 'trade' kids once a week with a friend. There are all sorts of options besides sending the kids to bed at 9 pm "because daddy said so"
You might also take a bit of a look around the house - are there ways you can make things comfortable for the kids to stay up AND minimize volume from the area they are likely to be in? It's amazing what something like a big decorative quilt hung on the wall can do for sound dampening. Can they turn down the TV volume and use captioning to follow the details of a program (not all programs need captioning to follow the plot; not all programs have captioning available, such as older DVDs)? Can you put down a sheet or blanket on the floor to dampen the sound of legos and such? I'd bet the kids can come up with some pretty creative ideas.
BTW when we were discussing mommy and daddy having private time, a couple of things happened:
1 - DS and I decided to have a once a week (or once every other week, it has varied over time) "date night", just the two of us. That seems to help fill his cup o' mommy interaction pretty effectively. Perhaps you and your hubby can each spend one on one time doing something special with the kids - each take one then switch the following week maybe - to help fill that aspect of things. It seems, IME, that once DS knew that he wasn't being shut out but rather he was getting time with me *just like daddy* (regardless of the precise quantity), he didn't need to work so hard to get his fill.
2 - DS wanted to know what mommy and daddy did during 'private time' (he understood private since we've accorded him privacy since he was a tot, when requested). So, I told him plainly (he was 8 or 9 at the time) that sometimes we just watch a movie that we know he wouldn't like, sometimes we talk about planning stuff, sometimes we snuggle, and sometimes we have sex. Once that percolated in his brain for a few days, I made a space to see if there were any other questions...yup, "Well, what exactly IS sex?" Gave him just the basics and he's okay with it so far - but at nearly 10 ½ I'm pretty sure there's more ahead once puberty gets rolling full steam.
Deb R
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You might also take a bit of a look around the house - are there ways you can make things comfortable for the kids to stay up AND minimize volume from the area they are likely to be in? It's amazing what something like a big decorative quilt hung on the wall can do for sound dampening. Can they turn down the TV volume and use captioning to follow the details of a program (not all programs need captioning to follow the plot; not all programs have captioning available, such as older DVDs)? Can you put down a sheet or blanket on the floor to dampen the sound of legos and such? I'd bet the kids can come up with some pretty creative ideas.
BTW when we were discussing mommy and daddy having private time, a couple of things happened:
1 - DS and I decided to have a once a week (or once every other week, it has varied over time) "date night", just the two of us. That seems to help fill his cup o' mommy interaction pretty effectively. Perhaps you and your hubby can each spend one on one time doing something special with the kids - each take one then switch the following week maybe - to help fill that aspect of things. It seems, IME, that once DS knew that he wasn't being shut out but rather he was getting time with me *just like daddy* (regardless of the precise quantity), he didn't need to work so hard to get his fill.
2 - DS wanted to know what mommy and daddy did during 'private time' (he understood private since we've accorded him privacy since he was a tot, when requested). So, I told him plainly (he was 8 or 9 at the time) that sometimes we just watch a movie that we know he wouldn't like, sometimes we talk about planning stuff, sometimes we snuggle, and sometimes we have sex. Once that percolated in his brain for a few days, I made a space to see if there were any other questions...yup, "Well, what exactly IS sex?" Gave him just the basics and he's okay with it so far - but at nearly 10 ½ I'm pretty sure there's more ahead once puberty gets rolling full steam.
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@...> wrote:
George and I both need a certain amount of quiet time, alone time
and "adult" time, those things don't have to coincide every day. We
find ways to flirt with each other pretty much anytime - a meaningful
glance here, a "coded" remark there... so we get some of our personal
needs met that way. We each have strategies for finding time alone.
He can feel a sense of "alone" if he's playing music, even if he's
right in the living room, for example. I can get a little "alone"
time by "veging out" while watching a kid play a video game. And when
its quiet - ahhhhhhh! With two pretty energetic kids, we take our
moments of silence seriously!
Anyway, since we're meeting some of those needs in other ways, we're
better able to be available in the evenings, even if we're both
tired. One of us will hang out with the kids if they need a parent -
and Mo often has a Lot of energy in the evenings, which drives Ray
nuts, so a parent is often needed to smooth things over until she
winds down.
some kind of assumption or expectation and it could be getting in the
way of your problem solving. If the assumption is that giving the
girls more freedom will lead to them showing more responsibility,
dropping any kind of limit isn't going to show that immediately - and
if you drop a limit without providing any support, maybe not at all.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time aloneSomething that helps in our house is an understanding that, while
George and I both need a certain amount of quiet time, alone time
and "adult" time, those things don't have to coincide every day. We
find ways to flirt with each other pretty much anytime - a meaningful
glance here, a "coded" remark there... so we get some of our personal
needs met that way. We each have strategies for finding time alone.
He can feel a sense of "alone" if he's playing music, even if he's
right in the living room, for example. I can get a little "alone"
time by "veging out" while watching a kid play a video game. And when
its quiet - ahhhhhhh! With two pretty energetic kids, we take our
moments of silence seriously!
Anyway, since we're meeting some of those needs in other ways, we're
better able to be available in the evenings, even if we're both
tired. One of us will hang out with the kids if they need a parent -
and Mo often has a Lot of energy in the evenings, which drives Ray
nuts, so a parent is often needed to smooth things over until she
winds down.
> I'd like to show dh that giving the girls freedom is actuallyBeneficial how? I'm not meaning to be snarky, it sounds like you have
>beneficial but this situation isn't helping.
some kind of assumption or expectation and it could be getting in the
way of your problem solving. If the assumption is that giving the
girls more freedom will lead to them showing more responsibility,
dropping any kind of limit isn't going to show that immediately - and
if you drop a limit without providing any support, maybe not at all.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], "Erin" <theburkemommy@...>
wrote:
make on that webpage. In the above scenario it's just the parents
forcing the kids to act a certain way and using punishment. If the
children really can't be quiet and someone needs to sleep, then an
adult needs to be present to help them keep the noise down or keep the
noise in a certain area.
The scenario wasn't about someone sleeping though. It was the adults
trying to make the children be quiet and leave them alone. If the
children are unable to be quiet, that's a clear signal they are
choosing to NOT sleep. If they aren't ready to sleep, they might need
their parents available!
Getting children to do what we want is convenient. But it's not
considering their needs along with your own. That whole "if/then"
thing really bothers me. It's not about bribing kids. Joyces examples
were about the reality of how society works. I certainly wouldn't
encourage "if/then" contracts as a useful tool in working towards
mindful parenting if they're being used to extract certain behavior.
Ren
wrote:
>I think you're misunderstanding the point that Joyce was trying to
> Have you guys tried giving them suggestions of what they CAN do? In
> my little opinion it's okay to say "IF you can be quiet...THEN you
> can stay up". But that also means IF you can't be quiet...then you
> can't stay up. One little warning that what they're doing isn't
> quiet and then the second time it's off to bed. They can try again
> the next night.
>
make on that webpage. In the above scenario it's just the parents
forcing the kids to act a certain way and using punishment. If the
children really can't be quiet and someone needs to sleep, then an
adult needs to be present to help them keep the noise down or keep the
noise in a certain area.
The scenario wasn't about someone sleeping though. It was the adults
trying to make the children be quiet and leave them alone. If the
children are unable to be quiet, that's a clear signal they are
choosing to NOT sleep. If they aren't ready to sleep, they might need
their parents available!
Getting children to do what we want is convenient. But it's not
considering their needs along with your own. That whole "if/then"
thing really bothers me. It's not about bribing kids. Joyces examples
were about the reality of how society works. I certainly wouldn't
encourage "if/then" contracts as a useful tool in working towards
mindful parenting if they're being used to extract certain behavior.
Ren
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Erin wrote:
then contracts were for training kids.
In the scenario on my page the breadwinner needs to sleep 6-8 hours
before he or she has to leave for work on a fairly regular basis.
Work time is set by the business. That need to sleep at that
particular time trumps the need for kids to be up and about the house
doing things they can do at other times of the day. If they want to
be up doing when someone's trying to sleep, then they need to be
quiet enough for someone to sleep.
Maybe it's clearer to think if a situation has factors that are out
of someone's control. A work schedule, a project deadline, a sick
child, a family member in crisis. Time inflexible needs trump time
flexible needs. (That shouldn't be a signal to stop creative problem
solving, though! Being in their rooms so someone can sleep might not
be the only option.)
But couple time (whether a movie or sex or talking) doesn't need to
happen at 9 PM each night. That's been arbitrarily decided. It's a
time that's convenient for the parents and can happen throughout the
week in more creative ways. Baby sitters can be hired. Trading off
kids with other couples.
I bet if "couple time" were searched in the archives, some more ideas
would come up.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Maybe I need to clarify that page if it left the impression that it/
> In
> my little opinion it's okay to say "IF you can be quiet...THEN you
> can stay up". But that also means IF you can't be quiet...then you
> can't stay up. One little warning that what they're doing isn't
> quiet and then the second time it's off to bed. They can try again
> the next night.
>
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html
then contracts were for training kids.
In the scenario on my page the breadwinner needs to sleep 6-8 hours
before he or she has to leave for work on a fairly regular basis.
Work time is set by the business. That need to sleep at that
particular time trumps the need for kids to be up and about the house
doing things they can do at other times of the day. If they want to
be up doing when someone's trying to sleep, then they need to be
quiet enough for someone to sleep.
Maybe it's clearer to think if a situation has factors that are out
of someone's control. A work schedule, a project deadline, a sick
child, a family member in crisis. Time inflexible needs trump time
flexible needs. (That shouldn't be a signal to stop creative problem
solving, though! Being in their rooms so someone can sleep might not
be the only option.)
But couple time (whether a movie or sex or talking) doesn't need to
happen at 9 PM each night. That's been arbitrarily decided. It's a
time that's convenient for the parents and can happen throughout the
week in more creative ways. Baby sitters can be hired. Trading off
kids with other couples.
I bet if "couple time" were searched in the archives, some more ideas
would come up.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
Joyce said: <<You'll make your life much much easier if you work with
you kids now
rather than against them.>>
I wanted to share how that has looked in our family about this
issue. There are 5 of us, and each of us has times we go to bed early
and wake early and times we go to bed late and wake late. Eric(DH)
and I grab our alone time on either end of this spectrum, usually
around the needs of the youngest who still likes me to sit with her as
she falls asleep (sweet) but sometimes based on the 13yo who likes me
to read to her at night. (cool now she's got such good taste in books)
So if the kids are up late I'll grab a nap while they're playing, and
DH will go to bed. I'll get up to read and kiss goodnight etc when
they're ready and then I can get up early with dh. We often ride our
bikes together (we did this morning actually) sometimes we catch up
with each other over coffee or lie in bed (ahem) together. The kids
are asleep because they were up late. It works really well for us.
Sometimes I fail to manage my time right and end up staying up late
and waking early and on those days I do get cranky but usually I can
figure out a way to make it work.
I don't share these arrangements with my more traditional friends and
family because they would think I'm totally nuts but I don't really
see a down side. My husband is happy, the kids are happy, Someday I'm
sure I'll miss it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you kids now
rather than against them.>>
I wanted to share how that has looked in our family about this
issue. There are 5 of us, and each of us has times we go to bed early
and wake early and times we go to bed late and wake late. Eric(DH)
and I grab our alone time on either end of this spectrum, usually
around the needs of the youngest who still likes me to sit with her as
she falls asleep (sweet) but sometimes based on the 13yo who likes me
to read to her at night. (cool now she's got such good taste in books)
So if the kids are up late I'll grab a nap while they're playing, and
DH will go to bed. I'll get up to read and kiss goodnight etc when
they're ready and then I can get up early with dh. We often ride our
bikes together (we did this morning actually) sometimes we catch up
with each other over coffee or lie in bed (ahem) together. The kids
are asleep because they were up late. It works really well for us.
Sometimes I fail to manage my time right and end up staying up late
and waking early and on those days I do get cranky but usually I can
figure out a way to make it work.
I don't share these arrangements with my more traditional friends and
family because they would think I'm totally nuts but I don't really
see a down side. My husband is happy, the kids are happy, Someday I'm
sure I'll miss it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erin
Yeah, you may want to fix the page! I went back to take a look and
it isn't obvious to me that you're speaking solely of a time that
someone has a time commitment and has to get to sleep (ie. the
parents have a strict work schedule).
Also, you mentioned that 8, 5, and 3 1/2 is really too young to let
them stay up. The woman that asked the original question is talking
about girls that are 9 and 7. Might they be too young to have total
freedom? You mentioned there are steps between inflexible rules and
total anarchy...do you have some examples you could share?
We are moving from the inflexible rules towards a more flexible place
to be. We have been turning our house "quiet" at about 10ish each
night (but that is NOT a definite time without regard for what
they're doing). Our house is VERY small and we have lots of people
living here, so it's really important that our house is conducive to
sleep for those that want/need it and yet still considerate of those
that aren't tired yet.
I'm curious to hear what others are doing besides setting a strict
bedtime or giving the kids complete and total freedom to do whatever
they want until they finally pass out.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
it isn't obvious to me that you're speaking solely of a time that
someone has a time commitment and has to get to sleep (ie. the
parents have a strict work schedule).
Also, you mentioned that 8, 5, and 3 1/2 is really too young to let
them stay up. The woman that asked the original question is talking
about girls that are 9 and 7. Might they be too young to have total
freedom? You mentioned there are steps between inflexible rules and
total anarchy...do you have some examples you could share?
We are moving from the inflexible rules towards a more flexible place
to be. We have been turning our house "quiet" at about 10ish each
night (but that is NOT a definite time without regard for what
they're doing). Our house is VERY small and we have lots of people
living here, so it's really important that our house is conducive to
sleep for those that want/need it and yet still considerate of those
that aren't tired yet.
I'm curious to hear what others are doing besides setting a strict
bedtime or giving the kids complete and total freedom to do whatever
they want until they finally pass out.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>you
>
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Erin wrote:
> >
> > In
> > my little opinion it's okay to say "IF you can be quiet...THEN you
> > can stay up". But that also means IF you can't be quiet...then
> > can't stay up. One little warning that what they're doing isn'tagain
> > quiet and then the second time it's off to bed. They can try
> > the next night.20parenting/ifthencontracts.html
> >
> > http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%
>it/
> Maybe I need to clarify that page if it left the impression that
> then contracts were for training kids.hours
>
> In the scenario on my page the breadwinner needs to sleep 6-8
> before he or she has to leave for work on a fairly regular basis.house
> Work time is set by the business. That need to sleep at that
> particular time trumps the need for kids to be up and about the
> doing things they can do at other times of the day. If they wantto
> be up doing when someone's trying to sleep, then they need to beout
> quiet enough for someone to sleep.
>
> Maybe it's clearer to think if a situation has factors that are
> of someone's control. A work schedule, a project deadline, a sickproblem
> child, a family member in crisis. Time inflexible needs trump time
> flexible needs. (That shouldn't be a signal to stop creative
> solving, though! Being in their rooms so someone can sleep mightnot
> be the only option.)to
>
> But couple time (whether a movie or sex or talking) doesn't need
> happen at 9 PM each night. That's been arbitrarily decided. It's athe
> time that's convenient for the parents and can happen throughout
> week in more creative ways. Baby sitters can be hired. Trading offideas
> kids with other couples.
>
> I bet if "couple time" were searched in the archives, some more
> would come up.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Erin" <theburkemommy@...>
wrote:
ideas of what to do when they're at loose ends. I find it helps my kids
if I offer to do things *with* them, even if its just to "get them
started". Mo, especially, tends to get all wrapped up in a project and
wants to be left alone to work on it, but she also sometimes wants help
or just company while she's transitioning into project mode.
In the evenings she's more likely to want a little company while she's
transitioning into sleep mode - but she doesn't like to be read to! So
we may play a game or just chat for a little while until she
announces "I'm going to bed" where she may go to sleep *or* play with
legos until she drifts off.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
wrote:
>This is a good suggestion just in general - helping kids come up with
> Have you guys tried giving them suggestions of what they CAN do?
ideas of what to do when they're at loose ends. I find it helps my kids
if I offer to do things *with* them, even if its just to "get them
started". Mo, especially, tends to get all wrapped up in a project and
wants to be left alone to work on it, but she also sometimes wants help
or just company while she's transitioning into project mode.
In the evenings she's more likely to want a little company while she's
transitioning into sleep mode - but she doesn't like to be read to! So
we may play a game or just chat for a little while until she
announces "I'm going to bed" where she may go to sleep *or* play with
legos until she drifts off.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
me. You could say that we have an if...then contract similar to what
Joyce describes. That the same contract applies to *me* as much as
the kids, though. If I expect to get a good night's sleep its
important for me to be sure that my kids have what they need *before*
I go to bed. If a parent is what they need, George and I have to work
out that part - sure I need to be well rested for work, but he's the
at-home parent and may need a break! That's something that gets
worked into the whole if...then equation, too. Its a complex equation
with many variables!
For awhile we had a very explicit if...then contract with Ray. He
wanted to try alcohol so we made a deal with him. He could have some
*if* he didn't get obnoxious in that particular way people get when
they're drunk. He's seen enough rowdy drunks to know what that looks
like. We didn't just lay it out as a rule, though. We talked with him
about it, talked about fears and concerns *and* the fact that George
and I just don't enjoy being around people who are wasted. We managed
to create a context of "we like you and want to be around you and
support you while you try this" while also expressing our own
personal boundaries. That sort of context is an important part of how
radical unschoolers make agreements - real agreements - with kids.
I said "for awhile we had..." which implies we don't have that
agreement any more. In a sense I suppose we do, but really we
(parents) don't have the same concerns anymore. We've all had enough
experience in this area that its not something we *need* any kind of
overt agreement about. Ray doesn't want to get wasted and doesn't
enjoy the kinds of parties where people are getting drunk. So its
kind of a non-issue.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>> In the scenario on my page the breadwinner needs to sleep 6-8hours
> before he or she has to leave for work on a fairly regular basis.house
> Work time is set by the business. That need to sleep at that
> particular time trumps the need for kids to be up and about the
> doing things they can do at other times of the day. If they wantto
> be up doing when someone's trying to sleep, then they need to beI get up at 430am for work, so getting to bed early is important to
> quiet enough for someone to sleep.
me. You could say that we have an if...then contract similar to what
Joyce describes. That the same contract applies to *me* as much as
the kids, though. If I expect to get a good night's sleep its
important for me to be sure that my kids have what they need *before*
I go to bed. If a parent is what they need, George and I have to work
out that part - sure I need to be well rested for work, but he's the
at-home parent and may need a break! That's something that gets
worked into the whole if...then equation, too. Its a complex equation
with many variables!
For awhile we had a very explicit if...then contract with Ray. He
wanted to try alcohol so we made a deal with him. He could have some
*if* he didn't get obnoxious in that particular way people get when
they're drunk. He's seen enough rowdy drunks to know what that looks
like. We didn't just lay it out as a rule, though. We talked with him
about it, talked about fears and concerns *and* the fact that George
and I just don't enjoy being around people who are wasted. We managed
to create a context of "we like you and want to be around you and
support you while you try this" while also expressing our own
personal boundaries. That sort of context is an important part of how
radical unschoolers make agreements - real agreements - with kids.
I said "for awhile we had..." which implies we don't have that
agreement any more. In a sense I suppose we do, but really we
(parents) don't have the same concerns anymore. We've all had enough
experience in this area that its not something we *need* any kind of
overt agreement about. Ray doesn't want to get wasted and doesn't
enjoy the kinds of parties where people are getting drunk. So its
kind of a non-issue.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 20, 2008, at 5:36 PM, Erin wrote:
happens to be mostly other people since I didn't have much practical
to say on bedtimes since my daughter liked to go to bed when we
did. ;-) Sandra Dodd said that about the little kids. But that's just
a clarification, not a disavowal. It's on my site so I agreed with it.
In the context Sandra was addressing, I'd agree that *mix* of kids
sounds too young. (And the parents had started doing that the year
before so were even younger then.) But it's not a rule. It's a "Look
at your kids, not at this new (bad) rule of let them stay up as late
as they want." The responsibility for the 5 and 3 1/2 yos shouldn't
be handed to the 8 yo just because mom doesn't want to stay up and
can't figure out how to help the kids to sleep.
But it doesn't say 8 yos should not be allowed to stay up. And there
are probably some hyperaware 3 1/2 yos who can be trusted to stay up
on the computer and crawl into bed when they're done. That's why we
talk about principles rather than rules.
they're capable of.
Second, the original scenario wasn't mom and dad going to bed and
kids staying up making noise. Though I'll address that. If the kids
are "young" and mom can't get them to sleep or *she* wants to allow
them to stay up, she should be up with them to help them find quiet
activities. "Older" kids who are choosing to stay up at night should
see that as a privilege, not a right. *If* they want to stay up,
*then* they need to be quiet enough for others to sleep. It's
courtesy. If they can't give the courtesy of quiet so others can
sleep, they need to go to bed. That would be true if they were
adults. And people need to extend that courtesy to anyone who wants
to sleep, be it the breadwinner or babies or other kids.
("Young" and "older" is up to the parents to decide. They should know
their kids and what they're able to do.)
Mom, though, is a special case. She's the one deciding to allow them
the privilege to stay up. It's her responsibility -- until the kids
are mature enough -- to be the keeper of courtesy. Until the kids are
mature enough, she needs to be the one finding a way for the house to
be quiet enough at night for those who want to sleep. That *might*
mean staying up, or finding a bedtime routine that works, or
something else. But *she's* responsible for allowing others to sleep.
The original scenario was different. I'm assuming the 8&9 yo used to
have to be in their rooms at 9 asleep or trying to sleep while their
parents enjoyed quiet downstairs. Now it's that same scenario but the
kids are allowed to be awake and quiet in their rooms (or loose in
the house? It's not clear.) Here it is:
the mom has unreasonable expectations of her solution working.
They could go back to the old way of lights out at 9. Is it horrible
punishment? No (though with a caveat.) But the actions do say the
adult needs for quiet are more important than kid needs for
exploration. It will whittle at the relationship. The parent will
need to make up for it in other ways. But if it's the only rule the
parents have, it's not going to be horrible. (I'm not advocating it.
I think there are better solutions.)
(The caveat is that there have been horror stories here from adults
who, as kids, could not fall asleep, night after night, until 1 or 2
in the morning. Little kids lying awake at night for hours because
the parents care more about their need for quiet than their child's
need to sleep on a schedule that's more natural to them. That's just
cruel.)
A need for sleep is universal. A need for alone time after 9 is
arbitrary. I think that's pretty obvious if you turn the scenario
around and have a kid say each night. "Hey, I'm trying to sleep. You
parents need to be quiet." It would be rude for the parents to be
loud when kids are trying to sleep. But a kid who said, "I need to be
alone after 9 so I need you to be quiet up in your bedroom then,"
that just sounds dictatorial!
A more nurturing way is to create a bedtime routine that helps the
kids wind down. This will take time. The parents could start early
with low lights, low energy activities, warm bath, snuggle in bed
reading so the house is set up to be conducive to sleep. I know some
parents are reading that and saying "Yeah, right." ;-) It's going to
take more creativity with some kids than with other kids. And for
those kids who can't fall asleep until 1 AM it's probably not going
to work.
Another nurturing way is to allow them to sleep wherever. Set up
nests for them so they can fall asleep when they're tired wherever
they are: in mom's lap, snuggled up on a comfy chair, in a sleeping
bag on the floor. The goal is to not get in the way of them noticing
when they're tired. They shouldn't feel like they're missing
something if they sleep. They should feel assured that they can wake
up any time and continue what they were doing.
Or the mom can *choose* to stay up with them. This is not a
requirement! And it's helpful to be aware, though, that staying up
late if it's something they've never been allowed to do, will seem
like carnival time. And they'll likely get wound up and they'll push
themselves until they're so wound up they can't fall asleep. This can
go on for quiet some time.
That's why it's *much* better to say yes more rather than declare no
more rules.
If you search for "bedtime routine" in the archives, and read the
threads there, that will probably give you a better handle on what
I'm talking about since there will be practical examples of what
people did. And I'm sure others will post to the current thread.
(Or if someone knows of a particularly good thread in the archives,
that would be helpful.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Also, you mentioned that 8, 5, and 3 1/2 is really too young to let99% of my site is me. That If/then page (http://tinyurl.com/5ryo5d)
> them stay up.
happens to be mostly other people since I didn't have much practical
to say on bedtimes since my daughter liked to go to bed when we
did. ;-) Sandra Dodd said that about the little kids. But that's just
a clarification, not a disavowal. It's on my site so I agreed with it.
In the context Sandra was addressing, I'd agree that *mix* of kids
sounds too young. (And the parents had started doing that the year
before so were even younger then.) But it's not a rule. It's a "Look
at your kids, not at this new (bad) rule of let them stay up as late
as they want." The responsibility for the 5 and 3 1/2 yos shouldn't
be handed to the 8 yo just because mom doesn't want to stay up and
can't figure out how to help the kids to sleep.
But it doesn't say 8 yos should not be allowed to stay up. And there
are probably some hyperaware 3 1/2 yos who can be trusted to stay up
on the computer and crawl into bed when they're done. That's why we
talk about principles rather than rules.
> The woman that asked the original question is talkingFirst, we don't know them. It's up to the mom to know them and what
> about girls that are 9 and 7. Might they be too young to have total
> freedom?
they're capable of.
Second, the original scenario wasn't mom and dad going to bed and
kids staying up making noise. Though I'll address that. If the kids
are "young" and mom can't get them to sleep or *she* wants to allow
them to stay up, she should be up with them to help them find quiet
activities. "Older" kids who are choosing to stay up at night should
see that as a privilege, not a right. *If* they want to stay up,
*then* they need to be quiet enough for others to sleep. It's
courtesy. If they can't give the courtesy of quiet so others can
sleep, they need to go to bed. That would be true if they were
adults. And people need to extend that courtesy to anyone who wants
to sleep, be it the breadwinner or babies or other kids.
("Young" and "older" is up to the parents to decide. They should know
their kids and what they're able to do.)
Mom, though, is a special case. She's the one deciding to allow them
the privilege to stay up. It's her responsibility -- until the kids
are mature enough -- to be the keeper of courtesy. Until the kids are
mature enough, she needs to be the one finding a way for the house to
be quiet enough at night for those who want to sleep. That *might*
mean staying up, or finding a bedtime routine that works, or
something else. But *she's* responsible for allowing others to sleep.
The original scenario was different. I'm assuming the 8&9 yo used to
have to be in their rooms at 9 asleep or trying to sleep while their
parents enjoyed quiet downstairs. Now it's that same scenario but the
kids are allowed to be awake and quiet in their rooms (or loose in
the house? It's not clear.) Here it is:
> Our dds, 7 and 9, have been given the freedom to choose when to goThe kids are showing they're not yet able to choose to be quiet so
> to sleep. We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time
> alone after around 9 so the kids go upstairs and I read them their
> story. Then, we've asked that they play quietly out of respect for
> us downstairs. Dh is getting frustrated that he has to keep asking
> them repeatedly each night to settle down. Last night, he told
> them he was tired of this and told them to go to bed. What to do?
> I'd like to show dh that giving the girls freedom is actually
> beneficial but this situation isn't helping.
the mom has unreasonable expectations of her solution working.
They could go back to the old way of lights out at 9. Is it horrible
punishment? No (though with a caveat.) But the actions do say the
adult needs for quiet are more important than kid needs for
exploration. It will whittle at the relationship. The parent will
need to make up for it in other ways. But if it's the only rule the
parents have, it's not going to be horrible. (I'm not advocating it.
I think there are better solutions.)
(The caveat is that there have been horror stories here from adults
who, as kids, could not fall asleep, night after night, until 1 or 2
in the morning. Little kids lying awake at night for hours because
the parents care more about their need for quiet than their child's
need to sleep on a schedule that's more natural to them. That's just
cruel.)
A need for sleep is universal. A need for alone time after 9 is
arbitrary. I think that's pretty obvious if you turn the scenario
around and have a kid say each night. "Hey, I'm trying to sleep. You
parents need to be quiet." It would be rude for the parents to be
loud when kids are trying to sleep. But a kid who said, "I need to be
alone after 9 so I need you to be quiet up in your bedroom then,"
that just sounds dictatorial!
A more nurturing way is to create a bedtime routine that helps the
kids wind down. This will take time. The parents could start early
with low lights, low energy activities, warm bath, snuggle in bed
reading so the house is set up to be conducive to sleep. I know some
parents are reading that and saying "Yeah, right." ;-) It's going to
take more creativity with some kids than with other kids. And for
those kids who can't fall asleep until 1 AM it's probably not going
to work.
Another nurturing way is to allow them to sleep wherever. Set up
nests for them so they can fall asleep when they're tired wherever
they are: in mom's lap, snuggled up on a comfy chair, in a sleeping
bag on the floor. The goal is to not get in the way of them noticing
when they're tired. They shouldn't feel like they're missing
something if they sleep. They should feel assured that they can wake
up any time and continue what they were doing.
Or the mom can *choose* to stay up with them. This is not a
requirement! And it's helpful to be aware, though, that staying up
late if it's something they've never been allowed to do, will seem
like carnival time. And they'll likely get wound up and they'll push
themselves until they're so wound up they can't fall asleep. This can
go on for quiet some time.
That's why it's *much* better to say yes more rather than declare no
more rules.
If you search for "bedtime routine" in the archives, and read the
threads there, that will probably give you a better handle on what
I'm talking about since there will be practical examples of what
people did. And I'm sure others will post to the current thread.
(Or if someone knows of a particularly good thread in the archives,
that would be helpful.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 21, 2008, at 3:57 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
make anybody go to sleep, really. You mean you gave them the freedom
to not stay in their beds with the lights off?
Is this a euphemism for the two of you having sex? Or do you mean he
wants to watch tv without the inconvenience of his children being
around?
making demands on them. It sounds like very conventional parents who
are demanding that they act like they have respect. You don't get real
respect by demanding it - quite the opposite. Use the word respect
when you're considering how you earn it, instead.
What are they doing that is so loud that it is bothering you even in
another part of the house, anyway? Does every little noise bother him?
(I mean, it doesn't sound like he's trying to sleep - you said "Mommy
and Daddy need some quiet time," not that he needs to sleep.)
the lights, enjoy yourselves as a family. You and dh can snuggle up,
too, WITH the kids there. If he doesn't want to spend time with the
whole family, can't he go off somewhere else to be by himself?
kids have more choices, but somehow want it to still work out that
your husband gets exactly what he wants, regardless of what the kids
want. That probably can't happen.
-pam
>> Our dds, 7 and 9, have been given the freedom to choose when to goThey always had the freedom to choose when to go to sleep - you can't
>> to sleep.
make anybody go to sleep, really. You mean you gave them the freedom
to not stay in their beds with the lights off?
>> We figured out Mommy and Daddy need some quiet time"We?"
>> alone after around 9 so the kids go upstairs and I read them their
>> story.
Is this a euphemism for the two of you having sex? Or do you mean he
wants to watch tv without the inconvenience of his children being
around?
>> Then, we've asked that they play quietly out of respect forBetter not to use the word "respect" in this context, when you're
>> us downstairs.
making demands on them. It sounds like very conventional parents who
are demanding that they act like they have respect. You don't get real
respect by demanding it - quite the opposite. Use the word respect
when you're considering how you earn it, instead.
>> Dh is getting frustrated that he has to keep askingHas to?
>> them repeatedly each night to settle down.
What are they doing that is so loud that it is bothering you even in
another part of the house, anyway? Does every little noise bother him?
(I mean, it doesn't sound like he's trying to sleep - you said "Mommy
and Daddy need some quiet time," not that he needs to sleep.)
>> Last night, he toldBuild a nest on the floor for them, put on a nice family video, lower
>> them he was tired of this and told them to go to bed. What to do?
the lights, enjoy yourselves as a family. You and dh can snuggle up,
too, WITH the kids there. If he doesn't want to spend time with the
whole family, can't he go off somewhere else to be by himself?
>>I might be wrong, but it sounds like you want to loosen up and let the
>> I'd like to show dh that giving the girls freedom is actually
>> beneficial but this situation isn't helping.
kids have more choices, but somehow want it to still work out that
your husband gets exactly what he wants, regardless of what the kids
want. That probably can't happen.
-pam