Surfwise
Therese
Have you seen this movie?
http://www.surfwisefilm.com/
(Rated R for language and nudity)
http://www.amazon.com/Surfwise-Amazing-Odyssey-Paskowitz-Family/dp/B00180R040
"Paskowitz and his wife traveled anywhere on a whim for over a decade,
surfing up and down the Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf Coasts of North
America, surfing, having lots of sex and making lots of babies. In
all, the Paskowitzes had nine children, eight boys and one girl, and
raised them outside the confines of "straight" life. Instead of going
to school, the children surfed, and were reared according to their
father's bold, yet ill-defined personal ethic."
"Driven--and sometimes abused--by their ultra-controlling,
narcissistic dad, they became excellent surfers but were ill-prepared
for adult life when finally, in their 20s, some of them began to leave
"home." Remarkably, they all seem relatively (so to speak) fine now,
with real jobs in surfing, music, and the film business and a fairly
clear perspective on their strange upbringing ("Don't do anything a
gorilla wouldn't do" was one of Doc's mantras). Extras include
outtakes, commentary, surfing footage, and more. --Sam Graham
"
DH and I just watched it off of netflix last night. At first I was
like- this is awsome! A completely free family (9 kids), unschooled
and living life one wave to the next. But then as I watched the kid's
accounts of their childhood I was saddened. The father, who was a
Stanford Doctor, had gone off the grid with his family and traveled
beach to beach, was actually very very controlling of his children.
There was one account from the eldest son, where his father told him
to chase down and choke his brother for something he did...
And actually, most all of the children except for 1 (who wants to
"keep the dream alive") seemed to feel that their father cheated them
out of many many opportunities. The daughter said at one point in the
movie that you can't keep children out of the system (school and
otherwise) and then expect them to thrive in that same system. The
other brothers also felt that their options were limited and that they
had very hard time when they got married and now had to be the
providers for their families when they had no education.
This movie got my husband thinking... he told me that what he does NOT
want to do is limit our children's options later on.
I overall felt that the children wanted to rebel from their father-
even though he seemed very relaxed about sex, but really focused on
healthy food, 'clean living'. Later on in the film, 'Doc' said that
he regretted ruling with an iron fist, but also said that his kids
were 'lazy'.
Just wanted to hear other unschooler's thoughts on this movie.
If you haven't seen it, its interesting enough, though I felt the kids
all had anger issues towards their dad and their lifestyle growing up.
Therese
http://www.surfwisefilm.com/
(Rated R for language and nudity)
http://www.amazon.com/Surfwise-Amazing-Odyssey-Paskowitz-Family/dp/B00180R040
"Paskowitz and his wife traveled anywhere on a whim for over a decade,
surfing up and down the Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf Coasts of North
America, surfing, having lots of sex and making lots of babies. In
all, the Paskowitzes had nine children, eight boys and one girl, and
raised them outside the confines of "straight" life. Instead of going
to school, the children surfed, and were reared according to their
father's bold, yet ill-defined personal ethic."
"Driven--and sometimes abused--by their ultra-controlling,
narcissistic dad, they became excellent surfers but were ill-prepared
for adult life when finally, in their 20s, some of them began to leave
"home." Remarkably, they all seem relatively (so to speak) fine now,
with real jobs in surfing, music, and the film business and a fairly
clear perspective on their strange upbringing ("Don't do anything a
gorilla wouldn't do" was one of Doc's mantras). Extras include
outtakes, commentary, surfing footage, and more. --Sam Graham
"
DH and I just watched it off of netflix last night. At first I was
like- this is awsome! A completely free family (9 kids), unschooled
and living life one wave to the next. But then as I watched the kid's
accounts of their childhood I was saddened. The father, who was a
Stanford Doctor, had gone off the grid with his family and traveled
beach to beach, was actually very very controlling of his children.
There was one account from the eldest son, where his father told him
to chase down and choke his brother for something he did...
And actually, most all of the children except for 1 (who wants to
"keep the dream alive") seemed to feel that their father cheated them
out of many many opportunities. The daughter said at one point in the
movie that you can't keep children out of the system (school and
otherwise) and then expect them to thrive in that same system. The
other brothers also felt that their options were limited and that they
had very hard time when they got married and now had to be the
providers for their families when they had no education.
This movie got my husband thinking... he told me that what he does NOT
want to do is limit our children's options later on.
I overall felt that the children wanted to rebel from their father-
even though he seemed very relaxed about sex, but really focused on
healthy food, 'clean living'. Later on in the film, 'Doc' said that
he regretted ruling with an iron fist, but also said that his kids
were 'lazy'.
Just wanted to hear other unschooler's thoughts on this movie.
If you haven't seen it, its interesting enough, though I felt the kids
all had anger issues towards their dad and their lifestyle growing up.
Therese
Nicole Willoughby
Izzy runs a surf camp for autistic kids Id love to take Nate to .
I have seen the movie and I don't think they were unschoolers more like a bunch of truant kids.
Nicole
Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have seen the movie and I don't think they were unschoolers more like a bunch of truant kids.
Nicole
Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Johnston
I thought what they offered the children was really exciting (traveling around in a bus...eating healthy food..surfing, etc)...what I didn't think worked was his controlling and aggressive way of parenting. It was his way or the highway. Plus the sex stuff was very inappropriate in my opinion....as well as the tight quarters. I think they ALL turned out exceptionally bright and almost oddly successful and creative. I thought that there was definitely some ill feelings toward the dad (and the mom) which made me really sad. I am not sure how I feel about needing to be in society in order to fit in later to society. I Think when the kids said "hey I want to do this...or that" then the parents should have helped them achieve that. Instead, they continued to insist that they function as they saw fit. I think this is the problem in any household no matter if you are in the suburbs or in a van traveling the world.Kelli
EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOODJoin me
To: [email protected]: luvmy2gifts@...: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:20:32 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Surfwise
Have you seen this movie?http://www.surfwisefilm.com/(Rated R for language and nudity)http://www.amazon.com/Surfwise-Amazing-Odyssey-Paskowitz-Family/dp/B00180R040"Paskowitz and his wife traveled anywhere on a whim for over a decade,surfing up and down the Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf Coasts of NorthAmerica, surfing, having lots of sex and making lots of babies. Inall, the Paskowitzes had nine children, eight boys and one girl, andraised them outside the confines of "straight" life. Instead of goingto school, the children surfed, and were reared according to theirfather's bold, yet ill-defined personal ethic.""Driven--and sometimes abused--by their ultra-controlling,narcissistic dad, they became excellent surfers but were ill-preparedfor adult life when finally, in their 20s, some of them began to leave"home." Remarkably, they all seem relatively (so to speak) fine now,with real jobs in surfing, music, and the film business and a fairlyclear perspective on their strange upbringing ("Don't do anything agorilla wouldn't do" was one of Doc's mantras). Extras includeouttakes, commentary, surfing footage, and more. --Sam Graham"DH and I just watched it off of netflix last night. At first I waslike- this is awsome! A completely free family (9 kids), unschooledand living life one wave to the next. But then as I watched the kid'saccounts of their childhood I was saddened. The father, who was aStanford Doctor, had gone off the grid with his family and traveledbeach to beach, was actually very very controlling of his children.There was one account from the eldest son, where his father told himto chase down and choke his brother for something he did... And actually, most all of the children except for 1 (who wants to"keep the dream alive") seemed to feel that their father cheated themout of many many opportunities. The daughter said at one point in themovie that you can't keep children out of the system (school andotherwise) and then expect them to thrive in that same system. Theother brothers also felt that their options were limited and that theyhad very hard time when they got married and now had to be theproviders for their families when they had no education.This movie got my husband thinking... he told me that what he does NOTwant to do is limit our children's options later on. I overall felt that the children wanted to rebel from their father-even though he seemed very relaxed about sex, but really focused onhealthy food, 'clean living'. Later on in the film, 'Doc' said thathe regretted ruling with an iron fist, but also said that his kidswere 'lazy'. Just wanted to hear other unschooler's thoughts on this movie.If you haven't seen it, its interesting enough, though I felt the kidsall had anger issues towards their dad and their lifestyle growing up. Therese
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOODJoin me
To: [email protected]: luvmy2gifts@...: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:20:32 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Surfwise
Have you seen this movie?http://www.surfwisefilm.com/(Rated R for language and nudity)http://www.amazon.com/Surfwise-Amazing-Odyssey-Paskowitz-Family/dp/B00180R040"Paskowitz and his wife traveled anywhere on a whim for over a decade,surfing up and down the Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf Coasts of NorthAmerica, surfing, having lots of sex and making lots of babies. Inall, the Paskowitzes had nine children, eight boys and one girl, andraised them outside the confines of "straight" life. Instead of goingto school, the children surfed, and were reared according to theirfather's bold, yet ill-defined personal ethic.""Driven--and sometimes abused--by their ultra-controlling,narcissistic dad, they became excellent surfers but were ill-preparedfor adult life when finally, in their 20s, some of them began to leave"home." Remarkably, they all seem relatively (so to speak) fine now,with real jobs in surfing, music, and the film business and a fairlyclear perspective on their strange upbringing ("Don't do anything agorilla wouldn't do" was one of Doc's mantras). Extras includeouttakes, commentary, surfing footage, and more. --Sam Graham"DH and I just watched it off of netflix last night. At first I waslike- this is awsome! A completely free family (9 kids), unschooledand living life one wave to the next. But then as I watched the kid'saccounts of their childhood I was saddened. The father, who was aStanford Doctor, had gone off the grid with his family and traveledbeach to beach, was actually very very controlling of his children.There was one account from the eldest son, where his father told himto chase down and choke his brother for something he did... And actually, most all of the children except for 1 (who wants to"keep the dream alive") seemed to feel that their father cheated themout of many many opportunities. The daughter said at one point in themovie that you can't keep children out of the system (school andotherwise) and then expect them to thrive in that same system. Theother brothers also felt that their options were limited and that theyhad very hard time when they got married and now had to be theproviders for their families when they had no education.This movie got my husband thinking... he told me that what he does NOTwant to do is limit our children's options later on. I overall felt that the children wanted to rebel from their father-even though he seemed very relaxed about sex, but really focused onhealthy food, 'clean living'. Later on in the film, 'Doc' said thathe regretted ruling with an iron fist, but also said that his kidswere 'lazy'. Just wanted to hear other unschooler's thoughts on this movie.If you haven't seen it, its interesting enough, though I felt the kidsall had anger issues towards their dad and their lifestyle growing up. Therese
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
amberlee_b
>truant kids.
> I have seen the movie and I don't think they were unschoolers more like a bunch of
Ok that may be true, but isn't that what unschoolers look like to many in the world around
us? A bunch of truant kids who get to do whatever they want, eat what they want, when
they want and then somehow have to "fit into" society if they decide to grow up and get a
"real life" and work "like the rest of us have to"?
How can we be judgmental of anyone else's lifestyle and not expect the same for us? We
can't....We watched the movie Hairspray again yesterday and were discussing this with my
kids. My daughter still can't get her head wrapped around how people treat each other
due to skin color or religion or country of origin... (neither can I completely to be honest).
She didn't understand why the TV station didn't want to have "negro day" everyday when
they were the "best singers and dancers in the group". She wanted to know why Link was
worried about going with his new friends on the bus to where they lived. Explaining about
buses, and how people were treated due to skin color at that time (and unfortunately in
some places still today) and why marching on the radio station was such a frightening
thing for Tracy's mom. It all comes back to our perception and fears of other people. If
you are afraid of the unknown or misunderstood, you will take the same precautions or
behave in the same manner that has been an issue in our country for years.
I am not trying to pick on the person who wrote the above sentence, I just think that it has
unexpected consequences when we toss around judgments in that way. I am sure the
person wasn't meaning it that way. I wonder if the movie was done to make them all feel
ashamed of where they came from? What were the producers/directors trying to get
across? Most people who love the ocean or have learned to surf would love the
opportunity (Iron Dad or not) to spend years perfecting it and doing nothing else.
I think we all have tests and trials, even if we are completely unschooled. Things I have
been through because of family has made me stronger. I have been able to choose who I
want to be and how I want to parent. Not everyone will come to the same conclusions. It
is not my place to judge them for their choices. It is my job to be there should they need
a hand or choose to change, or not... lol
And maybe I am wrong.... :) could be....I am not perfect. :) Huggs
A
Robin Krest
I watched the movie last night (thanks for mentioning it). The big difference I saw between what I consider unschooling and what the Paskowitz's were doing is the choices. According to the adult children, they could not choose a different lifestyle...or food...or anything. It was their father's way or out of the family. When they did leave, and chose different lifestyles, the father felt it was a personal attack and repudiation of his beliefs.
Good movie, well directed, I did not see overt biases in it. It was a thought provoking film.
Robin Krest
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Good movie, well directed, I did not see overt biases in it. It was a thought provoking film.
Robin Krest
_____________________________________________________________
Click here to find Medical Transcription Training programs.
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Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 28, 2008, at 9:14 AM, amberlee_b wrote:
MY lifestyle revolves around respecting and supporting our
children's interests. If someone else's lifestyle revolves around the
parent making the kids do what he wants them to do, I judge that as
not respectful or supportive and not as good for the children.
Are you expecting people not to judge your lifestyle? Good luck with
that!
I'm not saying I seek people out to tell them what I think of their
lifestyle when it isn't any of my business. But when someone makes a
film about their lifestyle - they've invited us to watch it and make
our own judgments.
]
-pam
> How can we be judgmental of anyone else's lifestyle and not expectOf course we can and should judge other people's lifestyles.
> the same for us? We
> can't...
MY lifestyle revolves around respecting and supporting our
children's interests. If someone else's lifestyle revolves around the
parent making the kids do what he wants them to do, I judge that as
not respectful or supportive and not as good for the children.
Are you expecting people not to judge your lifestyle? Good luck with
that!
I'm not saying I seek people out to tell them what I think of their
lifestyle when it isn't any of my business. But when someone makes a
film about their lifestyle - they've invited us to watch it and make
our own judgments.
]
-pam
Amy
I haven't seen the movie.
I have however notices that both in schooling and unschooling families a fairly large proportion of parents are unable to see what their children are doing as important. This also comes up heavily on fear based issues. When a child is afraid
of something that the parent is not the childs fear is deemed silly. It's part, I think, of a culturally ingrained us against them parenting mentality.
I feel almost evangelical in my parents as respectful allies approach to parenting.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have however notices that both in schooling and unschooling families a fairly large proportion of parents are unable to see what their children are doing as important. This also comes up heavily on fear based issues. When a child is afraid
of something that the parent is not the childs fear is deemed silly. It's part, I think, of a culturally ingrained us against them parenting mentality.
I feel almost evangelical in my parents as respectful allies approach to parenting.
Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com/sagepixie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alohabun
--- In [email protected], Kelli Johnston
<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:
etc)...what I didn't think worked was his controlling and aggressive
way of parenting. It was his way or the highway. Plus the sex stuff
was very inappropriate in my opinion....as well as the tight
quarters. I think they ALL turned out exceptionally bright and almost
oddly successful and creative. I thought that there was definitely
some ill feelings toward the dad (and the mom) which made me really
sad. I am not sure how I feel about needing to be in society in order
to fit in later to society. I Think when the kids said "hey I want to
do this...or that" then the parents should have helped them achieve
that. Instead, they continued to insist that they function as they
saw fit. I think this is the problem in any household no matter if
you are in the suburbs or in a van traveling the world.Kelli
exciting to see how this family lived - seems so exciting to me (who
lives in a house) to imagine how it would be to travel wherever you
wanted to go. I also did not like the control that the father had
over his family though. And I wished the mother had stood up for the
kids or tried to help everyone find a way to live where everyone felt
respected. I was glad at the end of the movie that the father said
something about regretting being so authoritative and that he wished
he enjoyed them more/had more fun with them (something like
that ....can't recall exact words).
The movie was very different from unschooling and doing what is best
for your children. It showed that the family did whatever the father
wanted. It did not show the parents trying to foster their
children's interests and passions....only them all catering to his
wants...and they HAD to do that or else! (And yet in his stubborn
and very authoritarian way, he probably meant well and that is the
only way he knew or way he knew best from his experiences. Not that
that is okay by any means...it just was how it was.)
Def an interesting movie though. Laurie
<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:
>(traveling around in a bus...eating healthy food..surfing,
> I thought what they offered the children was really exciting
etc)...what I didn't think worked was his controlling and aggressive
way of parenting. It was his way or the highway. Plus the sex stuff
was very inappropriate in my opinion....as well as the tight
quarters. I think they ALL turned out exceptionally bright and almost
oddly successful and creative. I thought that there was definitely
some ill feelings toward the dad (and the mom) which made me really
sad. I am not sure how I feel about needing to be in society in order
to fit in later to society. I Think when the kids said "hey I want to
do this...or that" then the parents should have helped them achieve
that. Instead, they continued to insist that they function as they
saw fit. I think this is the problem in any household no matter if
you are in the suburbs or in a van traveling the world.Kelli
>I saw the movie this past summer and really loved it. It was
>
exciting to see how this family lived - seems so exciting to me (who
lives in a house) to imagine how it would be to travel wherever you
wanted to go. I also did not like the control that the father had
over his family though. And I wished the mother had stood up for the
kids or tried to help everyone find a way to live where everyone felt
respected. I was glad at the end of the movie that the father said
something about regretting being so authoritative and that he wished
he enjoyed them more/had more fun with them (something like
that ....can't recall exact words).
The movie was very different from unschooling and doing what is best
for your children. It showed that the family did whatever the father
wanted. It did not show the parents trying to foster their
children's interests and passions....only them all catering to his
wants...and they HAD to do that or else! (And yet in his stubborn
and very authoritarian way, he probably meant well and that is the
only way he knew or way he knew best from his experiences. Not that
that is okay by any means...it just was how it was.)
Def an interesting movie though. Laurie
amberlee_b
People judge our lifestyle all the time, but because I do not treat them cruelly or
disrespectfully due to their lifestyles they are not disrespectful of ours. We set examples
of not being prejudiced; kindness and gentle words can change lives. Seeing how our
children treat others shows them that our lifestyle works for us.
Although they had a movie made about their lives I feel sorry for the father as he is now
realizing his dreams and views were not shown in love and respect but with an "Iron fist"
and he has to deal with those consequences. I do not need to judge him for his choices.
They were his choices to make.
disrespectfully due to their lifestyles they are not disrespectful of ours. We set examples
of not being prejudiced; kindness and gentle words can change lives. Seeing how our
children treat others shows them that our lifestyle works for us.
Although they had a movie made about their lives I feel sorry for the father as he is now
realizing his dreams and views were not shown in love and respect but with an "Iron fist"
and he has to deal with those consequences. I do not need to judge him for his choices.
They were his choices to make.
> Of course we can and should judge other people's lifestyles.
>
> MY lifestyle revolves around respecting and supporting our
> children's interests. If someone else's lifestyle revolves around the
> parent making the kids do what he wants them to do, I judge that as
> not respectful or supportive and not as good for the children.
>
> Are you expecting people not to judge your lifestyle? Good luck with
> that!
>
> I'm not saying I seek people out to tell them what I think of their
> lifestyle when it isn't any of my business. But when someone makes a
> film about their lifestyle - they've invited us to watch it and make
> our own judgments.
> ]
> -pam
>
Pamela Sorooshian
> People judge our lifestyle all the time, but because I do not treatI'm not saying it is a good idea to go around telling other people
> them cruelly or
> disrespectfully due to their lifestyles they are not disrespectful
> of ours. We set examples
> of not being prejudiced; kindness and gentle words can change
> lives. Seeing how our
> children treat others shows them that our lifestyle works for us.
>
> Although they had a movie made about their lives I feel sorry for
> the father as he is now
> realizing his dreams and views were not shown in love and respect
> but with an "Iron fist"
> and he has to deal with those consequences. I do not need to judge
> him for his choices.
> They were his choices to make.
your opinions of all of their choices, but these people made their
lifestyle public in a movie. Should we watch it and NOT think/talk
about his choices and what they did to his kids and their relationships?
Judging is not the same as treating people cruelly or disrespectfully.
I don't think it is a good idea to have a goal of living without
judging other people's choices. Instead, look at other people's
choices and judge for yourself whether you think they are productive
of the kinds of results you'd want in your life. Learn from what you
see around you in other people's lives. Judge away.
That doesn't mean you have to be cruel or disrespectful. You can keep
your judgments to yourself or talk about them in appropriate venues,
but to try to NOT judge at all seems like trying not to think. How bad
would that father have to be before it would be "okay" to judge his
choices? Because someone has remorse, does that make what they did off
limits for us to critique (his choices to make)?
I don't mean to pick on the one post that brought this up - it is a
pretty common thing for people to say they are trying not to judge
other people's choices.
-pam
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy <quinlonsma@...>
important.
-=-=-=-=-=-
How many UNschooling families do you know?
I would say that, among UNschooling families, not only is it not "a fairly large proportion"---it's
NONE.
If you seriously understand real learning, you know that everything a child does is important.
Unschooling parents GET that. If they don't, they're still trying to grasp the philosophy.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-==-
In UNschooling families???
I don't think so.
Again--how many do you know?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Which is absent in UNschooling families.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I assume that's why you're looking into unschooling.
But if you're finding "us vs.them" in unschooling families, you're hanging out with the wrong
crowd. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Amy <quinlonsma@...>
>>I have however notices that both in schooling and unschooling families a fairlylarge proportion of parents are unable to see what their children are doing as
important.
-=-=-=-=-=-
How many UNschooling families do you know?
I would say that, among UNschooling families, not only is it not "a fairly large proportion"---it's
NONE.
If you seriously understand real learning, you know that everything a child does is important.
Unschooling parents GET that. If they don't, they're still trying to grasp the philosophy.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>This also comes up heavily on fear based issues. When a child isafraid of something that the parent is not the childs fear is deemed silly.
-=-=-==-
In UNschooling families???
I don't think so.
Again--how many do you know?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>It's part, I think, of a culturally ingrained us against them parenting mentality.-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Which is absent in UNschooling families.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>I feel almost evangelical in my parents as respectful allies approach to parenting.-=-=-=-=-=-
I assume that's why you're looking into unschooling.
But if you're finding "us vs.them" in unschooling families, you're hanging out with the wrong
crowd. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> I do not need to judge him for his choices.I think we unconsciously associate judging someone's choices with
> They were his choices to make.
>>
judging the person, as though judging a person's actions as bad *for
us* is the same as judging the person as bad.
We absolutely should be weighing and judging ideas. Some are "good",
eg, in keeping with our principles and help us move closer to our
ideal. Some are "bad" and won't help and might even harm our progress.
But that's not the same as judging the people who hold those ideas as
bad.
I personally don't believe anyone is "bad" in the sense of someone
who is perfectly capable of making good decisions and instead chooses
to hurt others. I think there are a lot of damaged people who end up
hurting others, often *deliberately* hurting others because they
think it's going to ease their own pain. I think there are a lot of
people who mean well with their choices but can't see the damage
they're doing.
I think everyone chooses what feels right to them. That doesn't make
their choices universally right. There are plenty of people in this
world making what they believe are right-for-them decisions that are
dangerous to other people.
I'm sure the father in the movie meant well. He may have been trying
to fix the problems of his own childhood by dictating his kids'
childhood. His good intentions, though, shouldn't stop us from
discussing where we think his choices caused the problems his kids
saw or we saw, as well as the choices he could have made that would
have led to better outcomes.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
amberlee_b
Exactly, thanks for saying it so eloquently. :)
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> > I do not need to judge him for his choices.
> > They were his choices to make.
> >>
>
> I think we unconsciously associate judging someone's choices with
> judging the person, as though judging a person's actions as bad *for
> us* is the same as judging the person as bad.
>
> We absolutely should be weighing and judging ideas. Some are "good",
> eg, in keeping with our principles and help us move closer to our
> ideal. Some are "bad" and won't help and might even harm our progress.
>
> But that's not the same as judging the people who hold those ideas as
> bad.
>
> I personally don't believe anyone is "bad" in the sense of someone
> who is perfectly capable of making good decisions and instead chooses
> to hurt others. I think there are a lot of damaged people who end up
> hurting others, often *deliberately* hurting others because they
> think it's going to ease their own pain. I think there are a lot of
> people who mean well with their choices but can't see the damage
> they're doing.
>
> I think everyone chooses what feels right to them. That doesn't make
> their choices universally right. There are plenty of people in this
> world making what they believe are right-for-them decisions that are
> dangerous to other people.
>
> I'm sure the father in the movie meant well. He may have been trying
> to fix the problems of his own childhood by dictating his kids'
> childhood. His good intentions, though, shouldn't stop us from
> discussing where we think his choices caused the problems his kids
> saw or we saw, as well as the choices he could have made that would
> have led to better outcomes.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>