lisa_mc_connell

Hi All,

I am wondering about how to approach certain situations w/ my almost 4
year old twins who are my oldest. I also have a 6 week old baby. I
feel like up until this time last year when I became pregnant, I
totally got this unschooling philosophy and was able to live it. Then
I got pregnant, I didn't have as much energy and was sick in the
beginning, plus the boys are older and at different stages
developmentally, and I feel as if I have become lost and slipped into
a more authoritarian parenting style. I don't like it!

So here are a few situations.

Both my boys cruise through the house during the day and play w/ lots
of different things. For instance, they will grab a bag of toys w/
small parts, dump them out, look at them for a second, and then move
on to something else. They will grab something as they are moving
through the house and bring it to a different spot and drop it there.
They take their shoes off wherever they are and leave them there. They
picked a bunch of veggies from the garden today, brought them and put
them on the kitchen table. Then throughout the day, they stopped by
and picked a part different veggies to see what was inside and now our
table is covered w/ pepper seeds and skins and mashed tomatoes.they
will go to a bookshelf and take all of the books down for no apparent
reason and then run off to do something else.

So these are just some of the examples of the way they play and then
multiply this by 100 for a full day in the house.

So recently I have been saying, "let's pick this up if you don't want
to play with it" and repeat that until they seem to hear me. If they
decide to do it, great, but if not, I don't force them to do it, but i
have to admit ifeel resentful. But I do feel like I am constantly
asking them to pick up or let's leave our shoes in the mudroom or
let's put our bikes away before we go inside, etc. I feel like I am
"nagging" them a lot.

Should I even be saying this stuff to them? They don't seem to even
get the concept and then I can see there is some guilt if they forget
to say take their shoes off when they come inside or they make a
"mess" etc.

I am feeling really triggered by this--although I guess they have been
playing this way since the beginning--but I think the difference now
is that I see them as more aware and the behavior to me is coming
across as disrespectful. I feel really critical of it and resentful.
Is this just the way that they play? Is it normal?

I don't have the time or the energy now to pick up as much and I feel
I guess as if I have had it w/ having a messy house. I feel like I
follow them through the house and pick up stuff all day long! I know
this is my issue because I am the type of person that cleans as I go
when I cook and like to have things orderly in general, but is it okay
to ask them for help?

If they were doing these types of things at a friend's house, I would
definitely encourage them to do otherwise, so I am wondering why I
should let them do it at my house when it creates a lot of work for me
in the end?

Another thing that is frustrating me is that they are both enjoying
playing while eating a meal and it's causing dishes/glasses to break,
food spilled on cushions, and quite a mess to clean up after our meal.
Arghh, i feel so frustrated by it and am really triggered by it! I
have asked them not to play while we are eating and explained my
reasons, but the kids just want to play! So maybe I should have them
eat at another table that I can set up where they can't stain cushions
and give them dishes/glasses that are not breakable?

I feel like I could answer my own questions and now they seem a bit
simple, but still I would love your opinions about this, plus I am
going to post another topic about sleep!

thanks,
lisa

Jodi Bezzola

--- On Wed, 10/1/08, lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:
 
~~I am wondering about how to approach certain situations w/ my almost 4
year old twins who are my oldest.~~
 
I have almost 4 year old twin girls!  But I don't have a baby.  I'm actually thinking about having another baby :).
 
~~Both my boys cruise through the house during the day and play w/ lots
of different things. For instance, they will grab a bag of toys w/
small parts, dump them out, look at them for a second, and then move
on to something else. They will grab something as they are moving
through the house and bring it to a different spot and drop it there.
They take their shoes off wherever they are and leave them there. They
picked a bunch of veggies from the garden today, brought them and put
them on the kitchen table. Then throughout the day, they stopped by
and picked a part different veggies to see what was inside and now our
table is covered w/ pepper seeds and skins and mashed tomatoes.they
will go to a bookshelf and take all of the books down for no apparent
reason and then run off to do something else.~~
 
Wow, does this sound familiar!  This is *exactly* how my girls move through their day in the house.  If I don't want cleanup to take me a looooong time after they go to bed, I do the same thing and pick up after them all day long.  We don't spend every day at home though, we are out and about ALOT so they can run off steam outside.  For instance today we went to a lake with a friend and her son, and they played HARD at the beach from 2 p.m.ish until almost 7 p.m. when we headed home because it was getting dark.  It wouldn't work for us to stay home every day, they are just filled with too much energy for that.  I know you have a small baby, but perhaps you could put your baby in a sling/carrier of some sort and get out and about more?  I'm not sure where you live, but here there are lots of choices of things to do where they can run and play and I can run and play with them, or sit if I need to.

~~So recently I have been saying, "let's pick this up if you don't want
to play with it" and repeat that until they seem to hear me. If they
decide to do it, great, but if not, I don't force them to do it, but i
have to admit ifeel resentful. But I do feel like I am constantly
asking them to pick up or let's leave our shoes in the mudroom or
let's put our bikes away before we go inside, etc. I feel like I am
"nagging" them a lot.~~
 
For me, I often ask for their help, and often I just wait until they go to bed and pick up later.  I keep baskets in every room except our office to be able to quickly and easily pick up.  Then once in awhile I sort out all the bits and pieces so they can start fresh again.  One of my girls *loves* to dump things out just for the sake of dumping, so I've chosen not to have lots of small things like puzzles with lots of pieces, tiny lego, etc.  They have tons of fun with what we have, and then they use their imaginations a lot also with just about any item they find in the house.

~~Should I even be saying this stuff to them? They don't seem to even
get the concept and then I can see there is some guilt if they forget
to say take their shoes off when they come inside or they make a
"mess" etc.~~
 
It's completely okay for you to ask for help, but be aware that they also have the right to say no.  Remember that you're modelling what *you* want (cleaning up and having an orderly house), and since your 4 year olds seem alot like mine, I would suspect that they could care less if the house was tidy!  It can make all the difference in the world how things are said to our kids, like, 'remember, it's so helpful if you take your shoes off when you come in the house because you're helping to keep our carpets clean'.  I do lots of modelling and talking throughout the day, and the results of all that I might not see for years yet! 

~~I am feeling really triggered by this--although I guess they have been
playing this way since the beginning--but I think the difference now
is that I see them as more aware and the behavior to me is coming
across as disrespectful. I feel really critical of it and resentful.~~
 
Be very cautious about giving meaning in what they're doing to have anything to do with you.  They aren't snubbing their noses at you and your efforts by not 'getting it' about cleaning up, because this isn't their issue yet!  They may or may not grow up to be orderly guys, but for now, this is your issue.  What about it is triggering you?  Are you taking it personally?  What do you hear that it says about you?  This is your opportunity to question and examine why you think what you think, feel what you feel, and believe what you believe.  Welcome to personal growth 1001 via radical unschooling! <G>.  I have had fun lately changing my attitude about 'mess'.  Often still I'll start grumbling and pouting about it and then I'll remember, 'oh yeah, I don't feel this way anymore' <g>.  It's a *process*.  The main thing is that you're here asking questions and being willing to look at what it means for *you*.

~~Is this just the way that they play? Is it normal?~~
 
Yep.  They're totally normal.  Darn, huh? <g>.  I thought for a long time it would be so much easier if I just saw this as my kids problem to fall into line and not my issue at all.  And that's the way most parents out there parent.  And we know a better way.

~~I don't have the time or the energy now to pick up as much and I feel
I guess as if I have had it w/ having a messy house. I feel like I
follow them through the house and pick up stuff all day long! I know
this is my issue because I am the type of person that cleans as I go
when I cook and like to have things orderly in general, but is it okay
to ask them for help?~~
 
I tidy as I go as well just to feel I'm keeping my nose above water.  And some days I let it go.  And it's all okay.  And of course it's okay to ask for help, as long as you aren't placing a load of expectation and guilt on them if they say no.  They're FOUR. 

~~If they were doing these types of things at a friend's house, I would
definitely encourage them to do otherwise, so I am wondering why I
should let them do it at my house when it creates a lot of work for me
in the end?~~
 
Because it's their house too.  And you chose to invite them into your home.  And now you're the adult and you get to suck it up and do most of the work.  For a very short season.  That's what I'm really coming to understand down to my bones the last few months, is this season while they're so little is really so very short.  A mom here lost her daughter way too young and I've heard her say she would give anything to have her socks to pick up again.  Change your perspective.  It uses up ALOT of energy being resentful, believe me I know, I lived there for years.

~~Another thing that is frustrating me is that they are both enjoying
playing while eating a meal and it's causing dishes/glasses to break,
food spilled on cushions, and quite a mess to clean up after our meal.
Arghh, i feel so frustrated by it and am really triggered by it! I
have asked them not to play while we are eating and explained my
reasons, but the kids just want to play! So maybe I should have them
eat at another table that I can set up where they can't stain cushions
and give them dishes/glasses that are not breakable?~~
 
I see alot of this as setting them up to win/fail.  Right now it seems you're kind of setting them up to fail.  I asked my girls what it would take for them to love eating in the kitchen.  They said they wanted a table and chairs *their* size, so we went out and found one.  Then we went to Ikea and they picked out bright coloured, fun, PLASTIC dishes.  They are starting to do well with breakable stuff, but just starting.  Do you have cushions on your chairs for 4 year olds to eat on?  There's a recipe for them to fail right there.  Get creative and think of ways you can set them up to WIN!

~~I feel like I could answer my own questions and now they seem a bit
simple, but still I would love your opinions about this, plus I am
going to post another topic about sleep!~~
 
If you go into the archives, you'll find lots and lots about sleep.  I asked alot of questions last year when we were just starting out.  And I'm sure there are lots of others too. 
 
Jodi





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

THIS IS LONG..... so if you want to save it to come back to later here it
is.

>>>>>I am feeling really triggered by this--although I guess they have been
playing this way since the beginning--but I think the difference now
is that I see them as more aware and the behavior to me is coming
across as disrespectful.<<<<<

I thought it was interesting that you said you expected more of them now.
Than when they were infants and tinier tots? At 4, they've only just
*begun* to move beyond those stages. Karl is 5 now, and he still leaves
stuff out and I still pick it up. Occasionally he has handed me things or
put toys up. He's a real one for focusing for hours and hours and hours.
Breaking into his concentrated play and interrupting him was not usually
very successful. He's more aware now but often he's locked into it,
enthralled by whatever he's doing. It might take several tries to get his
attention.

It used to really *BUG* me that he couldn't be interrupted but he expected
immediate attention from me. I've gotten over that and it took a lot of
rethinking on my part to understand that he's still not aware of others the
way an adult would be, although he is beginning to be just a little more
aware. I say something about it occasionally. If I said it everyday, he
would tune me out (he has when I've gotten naggy). I cut nagging out
because I don't want Karl to tune me out, and I save it for those infrequent
really rare times when I *really* want his attention. And even there I'm
careful how I do it. I used to yell a lot (some people seethe inside
instead).

Unschooling has helped me learn why resentment is not the approach to take
and what to do about it. When we're unable to behave ourselves and ask and
take no for an answer, we're only *assuring* that our kids are learning to
do the same thing. NOT how to be patient, ask politely, and accept the
decisions of others with grace. When we have a lot of needs for immediate
gratification that we treat with urgency, that's how our kids will be too.
Realizing that you can gladly handle your own needs for a clean house will
create a household where kids will eventually know how to do the same.

Messes were definitely a trigger for me... especially spills!!! At first, I
was so awful when Karl spilled things. I cringe to remember it. One of the
things that helped me when I started out with unschooling (before Karl was
born actually) was to read the archives. The going advice seemed to be to
rephrase that word "mess." To call them --creative endeavors-- or
--deconstructive explorations--. That children are always trying to find
greater and easier access to the objects and stuff in their world. That
they are absolutely driven to explore everything all day long.

Really *see* their goals. Their goals aren't to make messes and drive mommy
nuts. Their goals are to explore, to welcome mistakes as opportunites to
ferret out information about their world, and to have fun and play ALL the
time. Their goals are not exclusive of doing things for mommy sometimes.
Karl does things for me without any ulterior motive behind it. I'm not used
to that from adults so getting that kind of unconditional sweetness from
Karl has been a real eye opener for me on the true nature of people the way
their supposed to be. He's open in a way that I didn't grow up to be. I've
learned a lot from him about unconditional love.

Removing a bunch of books and leaving them seems senseless to an adult.
Maybe the kids were pretending the books were a secret door or contained a
special key while playing detective together. Putting the books back on the
shelf wouldn't be part of that (and have you noticed cleanup and going to
the bathroom aren't typically part of the story in movies or tv or books?).


Is cleaning interesting to you? It's just one of those things, isn't it?
By and large, cleanup would go best if you expect to be doing most of it.
You can ask for help. Don't say: Clean up this mess or this room. That's
too much. You might have more chance of getting help if you ask for less
comprehensive help. Pulling books off a shelf is much easier than lining
them back up on the shelf. That's not something Karl could have done at 4
without a lot of dawdly effort. It seems easy to an adult but that's
because we have long arms and can hold books to the shelf while grabbing
more off the floor to put up. Even if kids have things in easy reach, if
the "put up" is trouble and aggravation in their eyes, they won't be able to
slip into that "let's have fun helping mommy" mode.

You can sometimes successfully engage your children in clean up games.
Depends on the dynamics of your family and the personalities involved.
Throwing stuff in a big laundry basket to gather them in one place might be
fun. But be ok with "no" or running into the scenarios where the child
zones out from one sphere and gets into yet another play theme.

Play is children's work and they take it seriously. Take it seriously too
and when you clean, do it with the idea that you are clearing the way for
further exploration.

I sympathize with you. I only have one kid and it's *plenty* to keep up
with. Two going at it is a LOT more work, and you're a new mommy again too
so you are probably (if you're like me) feeling robbed of your new one's
special times.

Some of this entails letting go of the idea of having a clean house for a
while because your kids are really only young for just a very short time
(even it if seems like ages right now) and if you're like many unschooling
moms you'll miss these years someday.

Put it like this.. having wonderful relationships with your kids is a very
worthy reason to lose a clean house. Be glad to have this time with your
kids now. It's not guaranteed that your kids will even survive to
adulthood. If they do, they will eventually go on to make their way in the
world. At some point, if you live long enough, you can make the clean house
to live in again and have memories of your kids to look back on. If you
play it right, you'll end up being friends with them too.

~Katherine




On 10/1/08, lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am wondering about how to approach certain situations w/ my almost 4
> year old twins who are my oldest. I also have a 6 week old baby. I
> feel like up until this time last year when I became pregnant, I
> totally got this unschooling philosophy and was able to live it. Then
> I got pregnant, I didn't have as much energy and was sick in the
> beginning, plus the boys are older and at different stages
> developmentally, and I feel as if I have become lost and slipped into
> a more authoritarian parenting style. I don't like it!
>
> So here are a few situations.
>
> Both my boys cruise through the house during the day and play w/ lots
> of different things. For instance, they will grab a bag of toys w/
> small parts, dump them out, look at them for a second, and then move
> on to something else. They will grab something as they are moving
> through the house and bring it to a different spot and drop it there.
> They take their shoes off wherever they are and leave them there. They
> picked a bunch of veggies from the garden today, brought them and put
> them on the kitchen table. Then throughout the day, they stopped by
> and picked a part different veggies to see what was inside and now our
> table is covered w/ pepper seeds and skins and mashed tomatoes.they
> will go to a bookshelf and take all of the books down for no apparent
> reason and then run off to do something else.
>
> So these are just some of the examples of the way they play and then
> multiply this by 100 for a full day in the house.
>
> So recently I have been saying, "let's pick this up if you don't want
> to play with it" and repeat that until they seem to hear me. If they
> decide to do it, great, but if not, I don't force them to do it, but i
> have to admit ifeel resentful. But I do feel like I am constantly
> asking them to pick up or let's leave our shoes in the mudroom or
> let's put our bikes away before we go inside, etc. I feel like I am
> "nagging" them a lot.
>
> Should I even be saying this stuff to them? They don't seem to even
> get the concept and then I can see there is some guilt if they forget
> to say take their shoes off when they come inside or they make a
> "mess" etc.
>
> I am feeling really triggered by this--although I guess they have been
> playing this way since the beginning--but I think the difference now
> is that I see them as more aware and the behavior to me is coming
> across as disrespectful. I feel really critical of it and resentful.
> Is this just the way that they play? Is it normal?
>
> I don't have the time or the energy now to pick up as much and I feel
> I guess as if I have had it w/ having a messy house. I feel like I
> follow them through the house and pick up stuff all day long! I know
> this is my issue because I am the type of person that cleans as I go
> when I cook and like to have things orderly in general, but is it okay
> to ask them for help?
>
> If they were doing these types of things at a friend's house, I would
> definitely encourage them to do otherwise, so I am wondering why I
> should let them do it at my house when it creates a lot of work for me
> in the end?
>
> Another thing that is frustrating me is that they are both enjoying
> playing while eating a meal and it's causing dishes/glasses to break,
> food spilled on cushions, and quite a mess to clean up after our meal.
> Arghh, i feel so frustrated by it and am really triggered by it! I
> have asked them not to play while we are eating and explained my
> reasons, but the kids just want to play! So maybe I should have them
> eat at another table that I can set up where they can't stain cushions
> and give them dishes/glasses that are not breakable?
>
> I feel like I could answer my own questions and now they seem a bit
> simple, but still I would love your opinions about this, plus I am
> going to post another topic about sleep!
>
> thanks,
> lisa
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

logan_rose_porter

One thing that has helped me is really simplifying the amount of stuff we have. It makes you
feel a lot more tidy and organized. And there's less for the kids to throw all around the place
:P

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "lisa_mc_connell"
<mmlisa2@...> wrote:
>> Both my boys cruise through the house during the day and play w/
lots
> of different things.

Yup, they're 4 alright ;) Busy busy busy all day long. Whew. As
overwhelmed as you are now, take a moment every day to enjoy their
energy and enthusiasm. This is why you're a mom, right? So you can
watch exactly this kind of excitment in living/learning/being
crusing through your home at 100mph. Take a few seconds at least,
every day, to remember that, and relish these moments.

> For instance, they will grab a bag of toys w/
> small parts, dump them out, look at them for a second, and then
move
> on to something else. They will grab something as they are moving
> through the house and bring it to a different spot and drop it
there.

They are busy people! They want nine different things at once, right
now! and a moment later nine other different things. That's who they
are right now. When Mo was that age I described her as "my high
speed car chase". When Ray was that age I felt like I was living
with a cartoon character like the Road Runner or... oh, what's that
mouse's name...? Speedy Gonzales!

> They take their shoes off wherever they are and leave them there.

Mo's 7 and she's just getting the whole "this is where shoes go"
thing. I just pick them up and put them on the shelf so *I* can find
them when we go out again.

> They
> picked a bunch of veggies from the garden today, brought them and
put
> them on the kitchen table. Then throughout the day, they stopped by
> and picked a part different veggies to see what was inside and now
our
> table is covered w/ pepper seeds and skins and mashed tomatoes.

OMG this is such a fantastic example of the way kids learn at this
age! They step away and come back to ideas over and over and over.
That's a learning style that, for many people, continues throughout
life. At this age in particular it plays out in very physical ways -
exactly like you describe here. They're really doing the same thing
when they dump a box of toys - or a shelf of books - on the floor.
They come back, look at the same pile a different way and move on,
only to come back again later.

> So recently I have been saying, "let's pick this up if you don't
want
> to play with it"

Cleanup is really really low on their agenda right now. If you are
cleaning and it looks like fun and they aren't in the middle of
thirty other things, they might stop and help for a moment or two.
Beyond that they just don't get why you want to clean. Just bc they
aren't playing with something right This second doesn't mean they
won't come back to it in two more seconds, after all.

>I think the difference now
> is that I see them as more aware and the behavior to me is coming
> across as disrespectful.

They aren't intending to be disrespectful. They don't have much
concept of Others' perspectives at this point, or that mom's might
be radically different from theirs. Telling them your perspective
won't help, either. As the adult, you have to be the one to see
their side, bc they *can't* see yours - they've never been adults,
much less moms ;) Try to see the mess as evidence of exuberant
living and learning. They are sharing their joy with you! Its just
sort of inconvenient at times.

>> If they were doing these types of things at a friend's house, I
would
> definitely encourage them to do otherwise

If it were an issue with a friend, I'd clean up behind my kids. And
meet somewhere other than her house next time! Seriously, last year
when I went to L&L I spent a lot of time cleaning the commmon area
of my lodge - Mo likes to cut things out of paper and the place
would have been wall to wall trimmings in no time! I'd do that
anywhere a mess wouldn't be okay. But I also try to avoid putting my
kids in situations where its not okay to be messy.

> Another thing that is frustrating me is that they are both enjoying
> playing while eating a meal and it's causing dishes/glasses to
break,
> food spilled on cushions, and quite a mess to clean up after our
meal.

Plastic dishes and cups! Big vinyl table cloths! Throw-covers over
all the furniture! I've known families who ate for a time picnic-
style on a table cloth on the floor. I have some little plastic
tables designed as lawn furniture that I use for snacks in the
living room and bedroom. I try to keep food on tables so playing can
happen on the floor and other furniture.

Another thought to consider is drop the idea of "meals" for the
kids. Bring them small snacks periodically throughout the day. The
messes will be corespondingly smaller.

>I
> have asked them not to play while we are eating

That's like asking them not to think and learn. That sounds harsh,
but playing is how they learn, its how they process every bit of
information, including information about food and eating and their
bodies. Mo sometimes is so busy playing she'll forget to eat unless
I can make food part of the fun - I've served snacks *in* toys!

>I
> feel like up until this time last year when I became pregnant, I
> totally got this unschooling philosophy and was able to live it.

Yup, somewhere between 3 and 5 parenting changes in a big way. Kids
suddenly have a lot more drive and desire for autonomy - and they
get Faster. They'll slow down, but maybe not for ten years or so, so
its good to shift your expectations. Otherwise you could be in for
ten years of No! and Stop! If you can shift those expectations and
look at your guys as delightful, joyful whirlwinds of passion and
verve, it will be much much easier to pick up the daily evidence of
their enthusiasm.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)