Marla B.

My kid's fight and argue a lot, including hitting and yelling and
insulting, etc. I finally realized that I've been making the
situation worse because when the older one (9yo.) says something nasty
to the younger dd (5 yo.), I often interrupt with "That was hurtful,"
or some other phrase letting the 5 yo. know that her 9 yo. sister is
insulting her. If I hadn't said anything, the 5 yo. might not have
taken it so negatively or responded in her own way. But I think I was
egging her on in a way.

I'm going to start backtracking and learning to keep quiet, but the
damage has been done. A lot of it is that my siblings and I don't
speak to each other except for a couple times a year. So, it's one of
the most emotionally attached issues I deal with. So, when I hear my
9-yo. say something hurtful to her 5 yo. sister, it hurts me deeply
and I react with a lot of emotion. I know I have to learn to change
this, but would appreciate any insight into others who have dealt with
this and how they resolved it.

One other issue I need help on is my 9-yo. often criticizes and bosses
her younger sister around. She says that I'm not hard enough on her.
Any ideas?

Thanks!

Marla

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 24, 2008, at 6:01 PM, Marla B. wrote:

> My kid's fight and argue a lot, including hitting and yelling and
> insulting, etc. I finally realized that I've been making the
> situation worse

A really good book is:

Siblings Without Rivalry.
http://tinyurl.com/4tw9dz

(Their How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
is also very good, but more about parent-child relationships.)

Short explanations, cartoons, dialog, different ways to approach the
same situation. Very easy read.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly DiLorenzo

Hi Marla,

I'm going through the same thing in my house. My DS age 8 & my DD
age 4 are constantly "at" eachother. My son almost tries to parent
my daughter! He corrects her, he shooshes her, and in turn, she tries
to be a mommy to him, gets upset when he won't play with her.
I have 2 older brothers who are a lot older than me. So I was pretty
much raised as an only child. The concept of sibling rivalry has
always been foreign to me. I always thought that if I had a
brother/sister to grow up with, we'd be best friends!I know that's
totally not realistic, but I guess it hurts me to see my 2 being
unkind and hurtful. I find myself stepping in a lot as well. I'm
trying not to do that as much!
I'm going to get that book that was recommended.


--- In [email protected], "Marla B." <marla@. wrote:
>
> My kid's fight and argue a lot, including hitting and yelling and
> insulting, etc. I finally realized that I've been making the
> situation worse because when the older one (9yo.) says something
nasty
> to the younger dd (5 yo.), I often interrupt with "That was
hurtful,"
> or some other phrase letting the 5 yo. know that her 9 yo. sister is
> insulting her. If I hadn't said anything, the 5 yo. might not have
> taken it so negatively or responded in her own way. But I think I
was
> egging her on in a way.
>
> I'm going to start backtracking and learning to keep quiet, but the
> damage has been done. A lot of it is that my siblings and I don't
> speak to each other except for a couple times a year. So, it's one
of
> the most emotionally attached issues I deal with. So, when I hear
my
> 9-yo. say something hurtful to her 5 yo. sister, it hurts me deeply
> and I react with a lot of emotion. I know I have to learn to change
> this, but would appreciate any insight into others who have dealt
with
> this and how they resolved it.
>
> One other issue I need help on is my 9-yo. often criticizes and
bosses
> her younger sister around. She says that I'm not hard enough on
her.
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Marla
>

Marla B.

Hey Joyce,

Thank you so much for the response. My copy of "Sibling's without
Rivalry" is one of my most worn-out books - LOL. The pages are
well-worn and I've written all over it (I also was fortunate to take a
several week class with one of the author's daughters on "how to talk"
even before I'd ever heard of unschooling or had a second child). I
guess I just am still struggling with getting past my emotion enough
to use the techniques. My kids relationship, unfortunately, is one of
my biggest struggles. Fortunately, I have met a cool new therapist
who is into unschooling, so I'm hoping I can finally get to the root
of it all. In the past, my therapists have spent time harping on how
I'm parenting, rather than helping me move forward.

I'll keep working on it. Thanks again for your input!

Marla

Marla B.

Hey Kelly,

Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone! As Joyce said, the
"Sibling's without Rivalry" book is a great resource!

Thanks again and take care!

Marla

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Marla B." <marla@...>
wrote:
>I finally realized that I've been making the
> situation worse

I've done that too, but in my home its most often Mo who's insulting
Ray or George. I've learned to bite my tongue and look for unmet
needs, instead. Maybe even change the subject by asking if anyone
wants popcorn or ice-cream.

When Mo's especially insulting and bossy, its generally a sign that
I've been too "busy" - getting wrapped up in my own projects or
issues and not spending enough time hanging out with Mo. The more
time I (and/or George) can spend with her, actively modelling being
kind and considerate, the more she's likely to ask for help or find
some other, skillful way of resolving problems, rather than lashing
out when she's frustrated.

> My kid's fight and argue a lot, including hitting and yelling and
> insulting, etc.

Mo and Ray go through phases where they bicker alot. I've had to
learn to step back from that to some extent, other than trying to
see if there are unmet needs being expressed. It doesn't help to try
to micromanage their relationship, it just adds more stress to *my*
life. Ultimately, they're pretty good at resolving things. It just
doesn't always look like a warm fuzzy.

> One other issue I need help on is my 9-yo. often criticizes and
bosses
> her younger sister around. She says that I'm not hard enough on
her.
> Any ideas?

I wonder where she gets that idea? Does she feel like her own life
is or has been "hard" in some way? It might be something to try and
talk with her about. Now and then I'll apologise to Ray for having
been such a hard-ass when he was little. I don't dwell on it, but
sometimes the conversation gets to a point where its appropriate.
Between that and actively doing things to be sweet to him, he seems
to "get" why we are parenting Mo differently from the way we did him
at the same age - not necessarily understand it from a philosophical
standpoing, but deep down at a gut level.

>A lot of it is that my siblings and I don't
> speak to each other except for a couple times a year. So, it's
one of
> the most emotionally attached issues I deal with. So, when I hear
my
> 9-yo. say something hurtful to her 5 yo. sister, it hurts me deeply
> and I react with a lot of emotion.

Remind yourself (often!) that their relationship is *not* any of
those other reltionships. You are not your mom, they are not you and
your siblings. So even interactions that superficially remind you of
your past are *not* the same. Those past relationships weren't
embedded in a context of radical unschooling, for one thing. That's
a big difference. Think of other ways your family as a whole is
different from your own childhood for more reassurance.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)

rebecca Elkoby

Marla,
I'm just curious, how did you go about finding a good therapist who understands your lifestyle?  I really feel my 6 y/o (almost 7) needs to talk with someone other than me.  It would also help me figure out what is happening with her.  I know we are going through many things/ issues in our home and its got to affect her as well, only I don't think she's coping well.  She was always this happy carefree girl and now has these crying or whinny/clinging periods that seem to be happening more often and for longer periods.  When I ask her about it she says she can't help it that there is a monster inside.  She also gets angry and or frustrated and doesn't seem to know how to tame it. 
 
I'm confused as to how to help her.  I've been thinking of going to a therapist but I just know it will be terrible.  I imagine it will end up being a session of questioning my homeschooling life and I don't feel I need to justify answers to something I think is going well overall.
 
How do I go about finding a therapist who is acceptable of homeschooling and preferable unschooling? 
Thanks,
Rebecca

--- On Sat, 9/27/08, Marla B. <marla@...> wrote:

From: Marla B. <marla@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I'm aggravating my kid's sibling rivalry
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 11:12 AM






Hey Joyce,

Thank you so much for the response. My copy of "Sibling's without
Rivalry" is one of my most worn-out books - LOL. The pages are
well-worn and I've written all over it (I also was fortunate to take a
several week class with one of the author's daughters on "how to talk"
even before I'd ever heard of unschooling or had a second child). I
guess I just am still struggling with getting past my emotion enough
to use the techniques. My kids relationship, unfortunately, is one of
my biggest struggles. Fortunately, I have met a cool new therapist
who is into unschooling, so I'm hoping I can finally get to the root
of it all. In the past, my therapists have spent time harping on how
I'm parenting, rather than helping me move forward.

I'll keep working on it. Thanks again for your input!

Marla


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 29, 2008, at 4:56 AM, rebecca Elkoby wrote:

>
> How do I go about finding a therapist who is acceptable of
> homeschooling and preferable unschooling?
> Thanks,


You have to ask on local lists - if you're in Southern California I
can offer you a referral.

-pam

Sharon

I agree that how my children are getting along has a lot to do with
how much time I am spending, or not spending, with them. Sometimes it
is a reflection of how my husband and I are communicating, or not
communicating, with each other. I usually try to give some attention
to one or both of these issues and find the struggles start to dissipate.
Best wishes, Marla. We can always talk more in person.
Love,
Sharon


--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Marla B." <marla@>
> wrote:
> >I finally realized that I've been making the
> > situation worse
>
> I've done that too, but in my home its most often Mo who's insulting
> Ray or George. I've learned to bite my tongue and look for unmet
> needs, instead. Maybe even change the subject by asking if anyone
> wants popcorn or ice-cream.
>
> When Mo's especially insulting and bossy, its generally a sign that
> I've been too "busy" - getting wrapped up in my own projects or
> issues and not spending enough time hanging out with Mo. The more
> time I (and/or George) can spend with her, actively modelling being
> kind and considerate, the more she's likely to ask for help or find
> some other, skillful way of resolving problems, rather than lashing
> out when she's frustrated.
>
> > My kid's fight and argue a lot, including hitting and yelling and
> > insulting, etc.
>
> Mo and Ray go through phases where they bicker alot. I've had to
> learn to step back from that to some extent, other than trying to
> see if there are unmet needs being expressed. It doesn't help to try
> to micromanage their relationship, it just adds more stress to *my*
> life. Ultimately, they're pretty good at resolving things. It just
> doesn't always look like a warm fuzzy.
>
> > One other issue I need help on is my 9-yo. often criticizes and
> bosses
> > her younger sister around. She says that I'm not hard enough on
> her.
> > Any ideas?
>
> I wonder where she gets that idea? Does she feel like her own life
> is or has been "hard" in some way? It might be something to try and
> talk with her about. Now and then I'll apologise to Ray for having
> been such a hard-ass when he was little. I don't dwell on it, but
> sometimes the conversation gets to a point where its appropriate.
> Between that and actively doing things to be sweet to him, he seems
> to "get" why we are parenting Mo differently from the way we did him
> at the same age - not necessarily understand it from a philosophical
> standpoing, but deep down at a gut level.
>
> >A lot of it is that my siblings and I don't
> > speak to each other except for a couple times a year. So, it's
> one of
> > the most emotionally attached issues I deal with. So, when I hear
> my
> > 9-yo. say something hurtful to her 5 yo. sister, it hurts me deeply
> > and I react with a lot of emotion.
>
> Remind yourself (often!) that their relationship is *not* any of
> those other reltionships. You are not your mom, they are not you and
> your siblings. So even interactions that superficially remind you of
> your past are *not* the same. Those past relationships weren't
> embedded in a context of radical unschooling, for one thing. That's
> a big difference. Think of other ways your family as a whole is
> different from your own childhood for more reassurance.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)
>

Marla B.

Hey Rebecca,

It sounds like you are going through a really tough time. I wish I
had an easy answer, but I don't. It was just luck that another
unschooling mom met a therapist who lent her "The Teenage Liberation
Handbook." When I spoke to this therapist she really supported
unschooling.

Unfortunately, most of the therapists my husband and I, or myself,
have gone to have blamed our parenting (i.e. not sending our children
to school) as the cause of all of our problems. Most recently I had a
therapist who constantly compared her own mothering with mine saying
that her kid was just fine and went to school and asked me questions
like,"do you ever say "no" to your kids?" At first I thought I was
just educating her about a different lifestyle, but it eventually made
me feel like she was using me to measure her own mothering style.

Anyway, I wish I could help more, but before you begin with a
therapist you can ask them their feelings about unschooling. Also, as
Pam pointed out, you can ask other unschoolers local to your area.

Good luck!

Take care!

Marla

Marla B.

> I agree that how my children are getting along has a lot to do with
> how much time I am spending, or not spending, with them.

I agree with this wholeheartedly! The problem is that they both want
me to spend more time with them as an individual and not the other
sibling. When I spend time with one, the other complains. When I
spend time with both, they often can't agree on what to do (they are
4.5 yo. - 5 yo. and 9 yo., so they are in different places
developmentally, etc.). So, I still am working on this issue.
Hopefully, as the younger one gets older, it will get easier - LOL.

Sometimes it
> is a reflection of how my husband and I are communicating, or not
> communicating, with each other.

I agree with this 100%! When Ken and I are having a rough time, it
does effect the kids behavior in a negative way. But we're working on
minimizing these rough times through counseling.

Thanks for the advice, Sharon. I appreciate it!


Marla

Marla B.

I agree that learning to bite my tongue would be an improvement, as
well as giving them more attention to fill their cups before they get
overly sensitive.


Ultimately, they're pretty good at resolving things. It just
> doesn't always look like a warm fuzzy.

We talk a lot about alternatives to hitting, but my kids disagreements
seem to often turn physical, so I tend to interfere sooner than I
would like to.

>
> I wonder where she gets that idea? Does she feel like her own life
> is or has been "hard" in some way? . . . Between that and actively
doing things to be sweet to him, he seems
> to "get" why we are parenting Mo differently from the way we did him
> at the same age - not necessarily understand it from a philosophical
> standpoing, but deep down at a gut level.

I do apologize when I am too harsh and talk about other ways to handle
it. However, I didn't radically unschool Amy until she was 5 or 6 yo.
Up to then I set limits on food and screen time, though I still
didn't use punishment. I do mention it to Amy at times, but I agree
that I need to discuss it with her more (about the way I parented her
vs. how I parent Lily). Thanks for reminding me about that one.

>
> Remind yourself (often!) that their relationship is *not* any of
> those other reltionships. You are not your mom, they are not you and
> your siblings.

You're completely right!

Those past relationships weren't
> embedded in a context of radical unschooling, for one thing. That's
> a big difference. Think of other ways your family as a whole is
> different from your own childhood for more reassurance.

Once again, this is something I have to keep in mind!

Thanks, Meredith!

Marla

Faith Void

The problem is that they both wantme to spend more time with them as an
individual and not the other sibling. When I spend time with one, the other
complains. When I spend time with both, they often can't agree on what to do
(they are
4.5 yo. - 5 yo. and 9 yo., so they are in different places developmentally,
etc.). So, I still am working on this issue.
Hopefully, as the younger one gets older, it will get easier - LOL.

I am thinking you will probably want to do something until the youngest one
grows a bit :-)
I have 3 that are very far spaced and very different developmentally, dd1,
ds5 (almost 6) and dd11 1/2
What I try to do is give them a few minutes of undivided attention each day.
When we haven't done it in a while and things get a little yicky between the
kidlets it takes a few days to get back into a groove. So it may be that you
need to be persistent about it until you get into a groove. I just let the
kids know that I have X amount of time to be with each individually. Then we
work out who gets my time 1st or 2nd. The baby is a baby so they get that,
mostly :-) I use this if I need time for me as well. They know that I will
be a better mama and that they will get exactly what they need if they are
pacient. How is looks in my family is ds5 usually gets his needs met first
because he has little to no pacience. Then I will hang out with dd when the
baby sleeps or late in the evening/night after her sibs are in bed. We have
our best talks then, she loves the darkness. When we are all going out I
try to make sure that everyone is getting what they need. Like when we do
something for dd1, I will create a stop that interests ds5. I will also take
the baby's mneeds into consideration and plan accordianly/\
This takes some finesse and trail and error. It is worht the persistence

Faith


http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 29, 2008, at 4:50 PM, Marla B. wrote:

> I do mention it to Amy at times, but I agree
> that I need to discuss it with her more (about the way I parented her
> vs. how I parent Lily). Thanks for reminding me about that one.

Help her think about longer term effects of different parenting choices.

She's still young and concrete in her thinking and is swayed by the
immediacy of harsher parenting approaches. If parents punish or
threaten to punish, it looks to HER like parents get results because,
yeah, they DO get immediate results. They get worse behavior in the
long run and the punishment interferes with the parent-child
relationship so that, as teens, the kids become sneaky and engage in
risky behaviors.

See, all this thinking ahead is beyond your older daughter's
comprehension, right now. But, she can start to get it that you're
thinking about more than just how to control the younger child's
behavior right this minute.


-pam
.