Lisa Russell

My post wasn't clear that I thought TV was stupid, I just said that I don't like watching some of the shows my kids watch, I also expressed the opposite opinion within myself that it's important to watch television, I think you might be responding to two different pieces of a conversation maybe. I never said I withheld it from my children simply because I didn't like it. I just said I wouldn't sit WITH them to watch Drake & Josh any more than I'd expect them to sit WITH me to watch CNN.

Since you're the second person to mention that I said "enjoying the debate" and that it's misplaced, I just want to clarify that when everyone is given the chance to speak their separate opinions and perspectives about a subject and everyone gets to listen in and gain new perspectives and challenge their own thinking- It is a discussion, but I wasn't trying to offend anyone by using the word debate.

I am glad that you & your kids are happy with what's going on in your house. I do realize that there is literature and research on both sides of the fence, and with google, if I were looking for research it would be easy to find. I was looking for perspectives, and to see how they played out in each home. I appreciate those that were gently professed, without dramatic accusations. In this journey toward a more gentle unschooling lifestyle, I am sure I'm not the only mom, gradually letting go of things.

Last night someone addressed the fact that nighttime "silence" isn't really silence, in a much gentler voice (Tennessee night time sounds) and it made me smile, the "silence" I was referencing did involve sounds of the night, an actual vacuum completely void of any noises would be unnerving, wouldn't it. I do prefer the sounds of the night, and sleeping with the window open, ahhhhh.

I'm not about to put TV's in my kids rooms, just in case they happen to like it, but if they want to fall asleep watching TV, they're more than welcome to it. So far, only one of mine does that, she must get it from her Daddy.

As far as "imposing my opinion" on my kids- they're pretty outspoken about everything under the sun. I trust completely that if they had some burning desire to get a TV in their room, they'd have mentioned it. In fact, occasionally, the TV does get moved in for a movie night, sleepover or film festival. They've painted murals and funky colors on their walls, rearranged their furniture a hundred times, and even used their allowance to buy a ceiling fan at a yard sale (which we installed) so I am pretty sure if they had a strong feeling about the TV issue, we'd know about it. Tv is just not a big thing in our house, except when I am trying to sleep and my husband wants to watch it. My refusal to put TVs in their room looks more like "Hey, I'm giving away a TV, do you guys want it?" and the answer is "no, thank you, we already have a TV" It's not like my kids are begging me for a television and I'm arguing with them. I really hadn't even considered
their future marriages, although that thought was amusing. I just want them to be able to have an appreciation for technology, and not an addictive dependence.

I definitely still think it's an addiction. Sure, like you said, reading can be an addiction, so can exercise. My husband was never ever held as a baby. He never had hugs and kisses from his family, the only "constant" was the TV in his room. So maybe attachment is the word instead of addiction. Using the word attachment makes it seem absurd that my kids would be subject to the same fate. I'm open to input. He doesn't fall asleep camping, and he doesn't even hear or see what he's watching, he turns his mind off completely and zones out. We've discussed it several times, and at one point, with the help of a meditation class, he was learning how to just be still and open, that was best for him, he was able to lay without TV for sometimes 1/2 hour or more. I definitely see TV as an addictive thing. He's tried to go without it, and it's too hard for him.

I appreciate that everyone is on a different part of "the path" and I like the discussions that help people get further along. I was hoping my TV thing would be challenged, I joined this list so that I could have every aspect of life challenged, because it's really much easier to see things when someone else is shining a light on them. I'm here to learn.

I thought it was interesting that you took such an angry stance about inflicting opinions. The idea of "inflicting an opinion" is pretty deep. Forcing someone to (live by? think?) your thoughts- would that be an accurate representation of your intended meaning?

It's a concept I hadn't thought of before. My mom let us make a lot of stupid mistakes as we were growing up. I always resented that she never gave us advice or her opinions on any matter. It's been a challenge in my parenting, because I think it's good to share our opinions, I would have loved to have known that my mother even cared. The way she said "do what you want" always made me feel abandoned, as if she didn't care. With my girls, I try to engage in a conversation when they want advice. I ask several questions until it looks like they've expressed all their thoughts and feelings, then I ask more questions, to make sure I am undersanding their perspectives. I ask them how THEY would like to handle it, and Instead of giving advice, I hope to be teaching them that I do care, and helping them make decisions based upon their own thoughts and opinions. I wonder, how do other people handle such a thing.

I do care, but I wouldn't dream of forcing them to make social decisions based upon my feelings on the matter. So I listen and if they can't think of a solution, I try to offer up a few different ways they can handle it, based upon their stated perspectives and we also discuss possible outcomes and ways the other people might react, and we try to hash out how SHE would like to handle it. I try to bring them back to their desired outcome.

I get the feeling that some people here had parents who "inflicted opinions" and they're trying not to do that. Does the same thing apply to teenage social and emotional issues? What do you do to show kids that you care about their dilemma, and how do you help them try to find their own answers without "abandoning" them? Are the endless conversations we have in my house typical? My mother would have listened, and then not commented, not delved any deeper than our initial request, asked any questions or given any advice at all. By the time I was 12, I had learned that I couldn't expect any kind of validation, advice or opinions from her and I stopped talking to her about everything. I would have LOVED if she had ever even offered up her advice, and I can definitely say I've never had it "inflicted" upon me. She was horribly abused when she was a kid, and I think she always minimized our dilemmas because she really had it worse. She also didn't
trust her judgement, and I never knew that until I was an adult.

This has nothing to do with the TV thing, I'm thinking of teenage issues, it's just the use of the term "inflicting opinion" has inspired my mind to wander.




http://www.lisarussell.org because .com and .net were taken







----- Original Message ----
From: carnationsgalore <addled.homemaker@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:26:58 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: tv, video games, etc


> I'm interested in seeing the media debate here, since I obviously
> have several opposing opinions about the matter...

I'm not sure what you want to debate about. Your post seems really
clear that you think tv is stupid. You're certainly entitled to your
personal opinion. I don't think it's very unschoolish to impose your
opinions onto your children.

My personal opinion of tv? It's just another thing in our day. I
give it no more or less importance than anything else we do. Yes,
there are some tv shows I don't care to watch. Each of my family
members has preferences for tv shows. We also have preferences for
books, comics, food, drinks, music, games, movies, playing, working,
and any number of other topics! I can't imagine withholding anything
from my children simply because it is something I don't like.

> For that reason, I have forbidden TVs in my kids rooms, I think
> it's nearly a disorder to be unable to fall asleep in silence.

Forbidden? Again, you're imposing your opinion and preference onto
your children. I don't fall asleep to the tv, but neither do I like
falling asleep in absolute silence. It's unnerving and is a major
source of discomfort and distraction. I believe in each person being
able to choose how to fall asleep and respecting those choices even
if they aren't the same as mine. The issue between your husband and
yourself is simply another opportunity for people needing to learn to
compromise. It sounds like you don't want your children to become
used to falling asleep to the tv because in the future they may be
married to someone who doesn't like falling asleep the same way?

You say you value your quiet time as you fall asleep because it's a
time of reflection and peace for you. But that doesn't mean you can
get your children to feel the same way. This is just another one of
those things that they'll grow up knowing is Mom's thing and then
will move out and do their own thing. Why does it even have to be a
thing?

> I realize that my value-ing of that quiet time doesn't make me any
> better or worse than him, and that my efforts to keep my kids from
> turning into "sleeping TV addicts" is one-sided and maybe his mom
> didn't create that, maybe she did- either way, it has nothing to
> do with my kids. I don't love him any less for it.
> Lisa

I think you're not being honest with yourself. Above, you said
you've forbidden tvs in your children's rooms because of your
perception that your DH is a tv addict. If it has nothing to do with
the kids, why are you not giving them a chance to make their own
choices the way you've been able to do?

And my last thought is why you feel tv is an addiction. What about
other things that some people do a great deal of time because they
personally enjoy it? Some people exercise hours a day. Some people
read hours a day. Some people garden hours a day. Some people watch
tv hours a day. Again, tv is just another thing to do in a day. I
have seen this debate countless times and someone always posts web
links to studies that tv watching is not as harmful as others
believe. I don't have those links but they're likely easy to find if
you care to look. I personally think it's just another thing that
some parents like to control because they can. I met a woman at a
homeschool park day who was very proud of herself for forbidding her
children to read books in bed pretty much for the same reason you've
forbidden tv. I suppose that's her thing. I have an opinion of
that "thing" but I don't think it's right of me to impose that
opinion on her, you or anyone else.

Beth M.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
> I'm not about to put TV's in my kids rooms, just in case they happen
> to like it

And it would wrong for them to like it in their rooms?

> but if they want to fall asleep watching TV, they're more than
> welcome to it. So far, only one of mine does that, she must get it
> from her Daddy.

I've had to watch my language in this regard, saying my daughter gets
anything from anybody. Sure, there are probably genetic dispositions,
but it feels like blame or praise that has nothing to do with who she
is, as her own person.
>
> As far as "imposing my opinion" on my kids- they're pretty outspoken
> about everything under the sun. I trust completely that if they had
> some burning desire to get a TV in their room, they'd have mentioned
> it. In fact, occasionally, the TV does get moved in for a movie
> night, sleepover or film festival. They've painted murals and funky
> colors on their walls, rearranged their furniture a hundred times,
> and even used their allowance to buy a ceiling fan at a yard sale
> (which we installed) so I am pretty sure if they had a strong
> feeling about the TV issue, we'd know about it. Tv is just not a
> big thing in our house, except when I am trying to sleep and my
> husband wants to watch it. My refusal to put TVs in their room
> looks more like "Hey, I'm giving away a TV, do you guys want it?"
> and the answer is "no, thank you, we already have a TV" It's not
> like my kids are begging me for a television and I'm arguing with
> them.

Did you ask your kids if they wanted another TV? You could be running
interference on their preferences.

Don't you think that your feelings about your husband's "need" for TV
isn't either overtly (or with subtlety) communicated to your kids? Why
would they want one when you are so annoyed about your husband
watching TV in the bedroom? Then they would be subject to your
judgment about it, too.

> I really hadn't even considered
> their future marriages, although that thought was amusing. I just
> want them to be able to have an appreciation for technology, and not
> an addictive dependence.

You did blame your husband's actions on his mother. Maybe the poster
considered that you don't want to be blamed by your kids' future
spouses? <g>
>
>
> I definitely still think it's an addiction. Sure, like you said,
> reading can be an addiction, so can exercise. My husband was never
> ever held as a baby. He never had hugs and kisses from his family,
> the only "constant" was the TV in his room. So maybe attachment is
> the word instead of addiction. Using the word attachment makes it
> seem absurd that my kids would be subject to the same fate. I'm
> open to input. He doesn't fall asleep camping, and he doesn't even
> hear or see what he's watching, he turns his mind off completely and
> zones out. We've discussed it several times, and at one point, with
> the help of a meditation class, he was learning how to just be still
> and open, that was best for him, he was able to lay without TV for
> sometimes 1/2 hour or more. I definitely see TV as an addictive
> thing. He's tried to go without it, and it's too hard for him.

So instead of trying to change him and make him the way you think he
should be, how about accepting him as he is? Unconditional love can
apply to spouses, too. Perhaps, if he thinks he's more important than
his watching tv in the bedroom seems to be, he'll be able to let go of
it at some point. Perhaps, all he feels right now is judgment for what
he does and who he is. I'd be clinging to my familiarities, too.

Just being still and open, I think, is more about you. You want him to
do what you do, be how you are. Then he'd be "okay."

If he is truly wanting to change, from his own desire, then, by all
means, help him.

This piece on Sandra's site might be helpful:

http://sandradodd.com/addiction

It focuses on dealing with the problem (which, for your husband, may
still be being loved for who he *is*).

This acceptance is crucial for kids, too. I see some pride in your
writing about your kids not being interested in having TVs in their
rooms (like you). What if they *were* interested? Would you be okay
with that? Or would you be warning them about the "addiction" or
"attachment" that you believe your husband has?


> I appreciate that everyone is on a different part of "the path" and
> I like the discussions that help people get further along. I was
> hoping my TV thing would be challenged, I joined this list so that I
> could have every aspect of life challenged, because it's really much
> easier to see things when someone else is shining a light on them.
> I'm here to learn.

Well, there is no shortage of being challenged on one's ideas, here!
>
Robin B.

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Lisa Russell
<lisalisarussell@...> wrote:
>With my girls, I try to engage in a conversation when they want
advice. I ask several questions until it looks like they've
expressed all their thoughts and feelings, then I ask more
questions, to make sure I am undersanding their perspectives. I ask
them how THEY would like to handle it, and Instead of giving advice,
I hope to be teaching them that I do care, and helping them make
decisions based upon their own thoughts and opinions. I wonder, how
do other people handle such a thing.
************************

The main differences in my home have to do with personalities. With
Ray we can talk and talk and talk - and used to do that more, very
much like what you've described except less "asking." Ray can talk
for days! More often, lately, he's taking the time to think things
through on his own. So we're hearing the "end product" or getting
invited in to the "middle" of his process.

Mo's less of an advice-seeker. She often starts out with her own
thoughts, opinions, even her own understanding of "reality"
sometimes. So I'm more of a "how do I get/do what I want?" resource.
Which is tough when she wants the moon - or right now, her own
restaurant. Anyone have a restaurant my 7yo can manage? I'm stuck on
that one.

>My husband was never ever held as a baby. He never had hugs and
kisses from his family, the only "constant" was the TV in his room.
So maybe attachment is the word instead of addiction. Using the
word attachment makes it seem absurd that my kids would be subject
to the same fate.
*********************

Wow, that's a great insight. I hadn't thought about tv from
an "attatchment" perspective, but I can see where that would come
into play in some families. Interesting. Its probably part of
the "why" behind so many unschooling families experience that tv
isn't detrimental - since so much of unschooling is about fostering
connections within the family. Cool.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)

k

I think it's cool when we're able to flesh out why we make the parenting
decisions we do. It made a lot more sense to me once the story of a
childhood lack of asked opinion/advice was placed next to the comment that
the child who is now a parent herself had a mom whose experience was much
worse.. abuse, so much so that her mom didn't trust her own opinion (which
by the way may be another perception to delve into... since maybe it could
be that this parent couldn't relate and that's why there wasn't any opinion
given-- she may have felt that foreign to her child's experience-- maybe she
just didn't know what she thought).

I also hope that the word addiction can get a clearer definition: being
abnormally tolerant to and dependent on something that is psychologically or
physically habit-forming. Is this really how you see your husband's use of
TV to go to sleep? Or could it simply be your own annoyance at TV noise and
light since TV isn't your sleep preference? Do you "have to" call it an
addiction? Maybe if you couldn't call it just a "preference," would the
word "need" fit alright?

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 20, 2008, at 10:21 AM, Lisa Russell wrote:

> My refusal to put TVs in their room looks more like "Hey, I'm giving
> away a TV, do you guys want it?" and the answer is "no, thank you,
> we already have a TV"


One of the things that has most helped me think rationally and
logically about parenting decisions has been to post on email lists
and message boards, just like you're doing. I'd post and people would
respond and I'd feel an overwhelming urge to go back and explain what
I 'really' meant.

But what helped the most was to think about why I did, in fact, phrase
something the way I actually did. Why would you, for example, say
you'd refused to put TV's in their rooms if, in fact, they never asked
and you're sure they don't want them?

I'm not asking you to answer, here. I'm using this as an example of
how it can sometimes be extraordinarily valuable to post our thoughts
and have other people point out the contradictions or implications.

You can't refuse something they don't even want. Why did you say you
refuse to allow tv in their bedrooms? Why did you say you refuse it
if, in fact, you've offered it?

Just saying - it helps to think really hard about what you're writing
in a post. Try to tell the truth - I'm not accusing you of being
dishonest, I'm saying that it helps you to ask yourself if what you
are saying is really exactly accurate. The more clarity we have about
what we are doing and why we're doing it, the more we can benefit from
the discussions here.

-pam