clean up: update
DJ250
Thanks, everyone for your suggestions and thoughts. I talked to dh
tonight and he says he has gotten past the idea that they need to clean
up everything perfectly. His thing now is that he just wants there to
be clear pathways around the house. So, when he asked them to clean up
the beads from the kitchen floor last night, it was because they were in
the way and he just wants them to learn to move their things out of the
way for safety. But, I suggested that he get down and help them, rather
than ordering them to do it. He says it's their stuff and they should
be the ones at least pushing it to the side. Thoughts?
~Melissa :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tonight and he says he has gotten past the idea that they need to clean
up everything perfectly. His thing now is that he just wants there to
be clear pathways around the house. So, when he asked them to clean up
the beads from the kitchen floor last night, it was because they were in
the way and he just wants them to learn to move their things out of the
way for safety. But, I suggested that he get down and help them, rather
than ordering them to do it. He says it's their stuff and they should
be the ones at least pushing it to the side. Thoughts?
~Melissa :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
This made me chuckle, cuz it's like 'same question, different scenario'...same answer! :) I've become aware during our own move to mindful parenting and radical unschooling, that coercion can be hidden all over the place, in places that seem to make sense until they are really pulled apart. Like: you should to at least have to move all this stuff out of the (my!) way so you're safe. Which is *our* need, not *theirs*, ya?
Jodi
Jodi
--- On Tue, 9/16/08, DJ250 <dj250@...> wrote:
From: DJ250 <dj250@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] clean up: update
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 7:46 PM
Thanks, everyone for your suggestions and thoughts. I talked to dh
tonight and he says he has gotten past the idea that they need to clean
up everything perfectly. His thing now is that he just wants there to
be clear pathways around the house. So, when he asked them to clean up
the beads from the kitchen floor last night, it was because they were in
the way and he just wants them to learn to move their things out of the
way for safety. But, I suggested that he get down and help them, rather
than ordering them to do it. He says it's their stuff and they should
be the ones at least pushing it to the side. Thoughts?
~Melissa :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 16, 2008, at 10:46 PM, DJ250 wrote:
Ask him what if you wanted the garden beds edged and he didn't care
would it teach him to love well edged gardens if you made him do it?
On the other hand, what if you asked if he'd come out and read to you
while you edged? Or asked him to bring some hobby out that he enjoyed
to keep you company. What if you asked him to do a small thing as a
favor to you, like fix a drooping stake that's holding up the string
you're using as a guide? What if you were glowing afterwards at how
cool everything looked?
Which person is he more likely to feel like lending a hand to edge for?
Try printing out a page or two at a time from:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Down the right side is a whole section on just chores and lots and
lots of common questions and common viewpoints and how and why those
viewpoints often create kids who avoid helping.
My 17 yo daughter has been saying "Sure!" to my requests for help
since she was 12 or so. (Which coincided with when I could see a more
adult view of the world developing in her.) It's because I *didn't*
make her clean up but asked if she'd help me out.
I wasn't, though, always perfect! Occasionally I did have my
demanding periods and I could see and feel the difference in her
reactions. I could feel her resentment and withdrawal when I made her
(when I left cleaning until the last minute before company.) I became
someone she wanted to avoid. (And by association, she wanted to avoid
what I wanted her to do.) When I retained full control of what I
wanted done and asked for her help -- and treated the time she gave
me as a gift even if her help wasn't huge -- I behaved as someone she
enjoyed helping.
If he's asking, yes or no *should* be acceptable answers. Otherwise
it's a demand disguised as a question.
Kids see right through that but unfortunately parents don't. Parents
think they're being polite by phrasing a demand as a question but
it's really just dishonesty.
different from the one we intend. When we make kids clean or just
move things for safety, they don't absorb the sensibleness of the
idea. They absorb that when you're big you get to make weaker people
do what you want. Right now those little people often have to beg and
plead and hope that a big person might find their request worthy of
the big person's time. Being able to make someone do what you want --
as your husband is modeling for them -- would be a time to look
forward to.
Our values -- and we! -- look way more attractive if we put the
energy into the values that we feel they're worth rather than
imposing the values on someone else.
What if you valued vegetarianism? For lots of people vegetarianism
makes sense. Would he embrace and love and see the sensibleness in
vegetarianism if you made him cook vegetarian meals and made him eat
vegetarian meals?
What if, instead, you started cooking vegetarian meals for yourself
and added meat in for the rest of the family so they could choose
vegetarian or not? They could try it occasionally when it felt right
to them or not when they didn't. So they had a *choice*.
be okay if they say "No."
Often it helps to make specific requests like "Hey, could you hand me
the bin to put these beads in?" Invite them to join in rather than
demanding they do it.
shouldn't be out in the world weakening the German race. So he made
them go to internment camps and made them go into executioners chambers.
When two people disagree, is the best way we can think up to resolve
the differences for the stronger side to make the other side comply?
*Is* that the way he wants to model resolving conflicts for them?
And a big *huge* factor is that the kids aren't developmentally ready
to see the world through adult eyes. It's not a matter of not
understanding. It's a matter that they really can't see the world
through the lens he wants them to. They will be able to when they're
older *because* they're older, not because they've been taught.
(Maybe, if they're precocious, they might grasp the safety factor
just as some kids can precociously read at 3. But it doesn't help
them grasp it sooner to assume they should grasp it any more than it
will help a 3 yo read by assuming they should be able to just because
the neighbor's child can. Or, even less sensibly, grasp it just
because the Dad can at 20+ years old! ;-)
In the meantime, he can live the values he finds important. He can
invite them along and make helping him a pleasant time so that they
absorb the pleasantness. They'll have pleasant feelings about the
value so that when they're old enough they'll be more likely to adopt
his values.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> His thing now is that he just wants there to*His* thing.
> be clear pathways around the house.
Ask him what if you wanted the garden beds edged and he didn't care
would it teach him to love well edged gardens if you made him do it?
On the other hand, what if you asked if he'd come out and read to you
while you edged? Or asked him to bring some hobby out that he enjoyed
to keep you company. What if you asked him to do a small thing as a
favor to you, like fix a drooping stake that's holding up the string
you're using as a guide? What if you were glowing afterwards at how
cool everything looked?
Which person is he more likely to feel like lending a hand to edge for?
Try printing out a page or two at a time from:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Down the right side is a whole section on just chores and lots and
lots of common questions and common viewpoints and how and why those
viewpoints often create kids who avoid helping.
My 17 yo daughter has been saying "Sure!" to my requests for help
since she was 12 or so. (Which coincided with when I could see a more
adult view of the world developing in her.) It's because I *didn't*
make her clean up but asked if she'd help me out.
I wasn't, though, always perfect! Occasionally I did have my
demanding periods and I could see and feel the difference in her
reactions. I could feel her resentment and withdrawal when I made her
(when I left cleaning until the last minute before company.) I became
someone she wanted to avoid. (And by association, she wanted to avoid
what I wanted her to do.) When I retained full control of what I
wanted done and asked for her help -- and treated the time she gave
me as a gift even if her help wasn't huge -- I behaved as someone she
enjoyed helping.
> So, when he asked them to clean upWhat if they'd said no? Would that be okay?
> the beads from the kitchen floor last night, it was because they
> were in
> the way
If he's asking, yes or no *should* be acceptable answers. Otherwise
it's a demand disguised as a question.
Kids see right through that but unfortunately parents don't. Parents
think they're being polite by phrasing a demand as a question but
it's really just dishonesty.
> and he just wants them to learn to move their things out of theWhen we impose lessons on someone, they often learn a lesson
> way for safety.
different from the one we intend. When we make kids clean or just
move things for safety, they don't absorb the sensibleness of the
idea. They absorb that when you're big you get to make weaker people
do what you want. Right now those little people often have to beg and
plead and hope that a big person might find their request worthy of
the big person's time. Being able to make someone do what you want --
as your husband is modeling for them -- would be a time to look
forward to.
Our values -- and we! -- look way more attractive if we put the
energy into the values that we feel they're worth rather than
imposing the values on someone else.
What if you valued vegetarianism? For lots of people vegetarianism
makes sense. Would he embrace and love and see the sensibleness in
vegetarianism if you made him cook vegetarian meals and made him eat
vegetarian meals?
What if, instead, you started cooking vegetarian meals for yourself
and added meat in for the rest of the family so they could choose
vegetarian or not? They could try it occasionally when it felt right
to them or not when they didn't. So they had a *choice*.
> But, I suggested that he get down and help them, ratherI suggest he get down and do it and ask if they'd like to help. And
> than ordering them to do it.
be okay if they say "No."
Often it helps to make specific requests like "Hey, could you hand me
the bin to put these beads in?" Invite them to join in rather than
demanding they do it.
> He says it's their stuff and they shouldAnd Hitler thought Jews and homosexuals and gypsies and Unitarians
> be the ones at least pushing it to the side. Thoughts?
shouldn't be out in the world weakening the German race. So he made
them go to internment camps and made them go into executioners chambers.
When two people disagree, is the best way we can think up to resolve
the differences for the stronger side to make the other side comply?
*Is* that the way he wants to model resolving conflicts for them?
And a big *huge* factor is that the kids aren't developmentally ready
to see the world through adult eyes. It's not a matter of not
understanding. It's a matter that they really can't see the world
through the lens he wants them to. They will be able to when they're
older *because* they're older, not because they've been taught.
(Maybe, if they're precocious, they might grasp the safety factor
just as some kids can precociously read at 3. But it doesn't help
them grasp it sooner to assume they should grasp it any more than it
will help a 3 yo read by assuming they should be able to just because
the neighbor's child can. Or, even less sensibly, grasp it just
because the Dad can at 20+ years old! ;-)
In the meantime, he can live the values he finds important. He can
invite them along and make helping him a pleasant time so that they
absorb the pleasantness. They'll have pleasant feelings about the
value so that when they're old enough they'll be more likely to adopt
his values.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christe
I apologize if someone already mentioned this (skimmed thread), but we keep a crate for each person. If someone's stuff is in my path or whatever, I just stick it in their plastic crate. Then if they need it, they know where it is, I don't have to do the extra step of putting it away unless I feel like it or have time to help, and it manages my need for clutter-free spaces. It's actually nice for those of use who honestly *believe* (me!) that we don't leave our clutter around when we *do.* I'll think, where is that piece of paper I wrote the note on? Where's that magazine I was reading?...Sure enough, in my crate!
It's a creative solution that works for us and seems to keep everyone relatively happy. Sometimes a crate gets full, and I might mention, um, that crate is looking pretty full...but mostly everyone likes to leave room in their crate so they can find missing stuff :)
Christe
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's a creative solution that works for us and seems to keep everyone relatively happy. Sometimes a crate gets full, and I might mention, um, that crate is looking pretty full...but mostly everyone likes to leave room in their crate so they can find missing stuff :)
Christe
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: DJ250 <dj250@...>
He says it's their stuff and they should
be the ones at least pushing it to the side. Thoughts?
-=-=-=-=-
Is it bothering the children?
As soon as it does, they'll start moving it aside. Until then, it's
just *his* issue.
If he would model the outcome he'd like to see, he will eventually see
it.
If things are in the way and not being used, I'd ask whether I could
move them to a safer place. Then I would carefully move them to a safe
place.
The nice thing about his action is that (when they are older and more
mature) they will kindly do the same for me when *I* leave something
out.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: DJ250 <dj250@...>
He says it's their stuff and they should
be the ones at least pushing it to the side. Thoughts?
-=-=-=-=-
Is it bothering the children?
As soon as it does, they'll start moving it aside. Until then, it's
just *his* issue.
If he would model the outcome he'd like to see, he will eventually see
it.
If things are in the way and not being used, I'd ask whether I could
move them to a safer place. Then I would carefully move them to a safe
place.
The nice thing about his action is that (when they are older and more
mature) they will kindly do the same for me when *I* leave something
out.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org