stephaniedenap

Hi!
I have been unschooling/homeschooling 2 boys (6yr and 4yr) for a
little while now. We have tried the traditional homeschool approach
and I am exhausted of arguing,pleading,threatening,bribing,coercing,
my son to 'do his school'. I saw a bright, curious, book loving boy
begin to become negative and distant, so unschooling seems very
enticing to us. My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?

My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
learn to read...

Thanks for any suggestions

Michele James-Parham

--- In [email protected], "stephaniedenap"
<stephaniedenaples@...> wrote:
> My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
> to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
> things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?

Can you give an example? I am not able at this moment to think of one.
I can't think of anything that I do that I don't want to do, besides
pay income tax and that's on my list of things to stop doing :)

> My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
> learn to read...

I'll keep this brief because you can search the past messages for tons
of conversations about reading & readers on this list. The chance that
your son will *never* learn to read is very slim. At some time or
another children decide they want to learn to read or they just start
reading -- 6yrs or 12yrs, but by 16yrs no one knows the difference.

If he wants you to read aloud to him right now, then read every moment
that he'll allow you to read...obviously, it's what he needs right now.

michele
www.naturalattachment.net

Schuyler

<snip>
My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?
<snip>

I don't understand the term self-discipline. I really don't. Discipline seems to me to come from an external source. Self-discipline always reeks of hair shirts and medieval lessons in piety to me. I wouldn't consider myself a particularly disciplined person, and yet I manage to do most of what I want to do. I have even managed to change my habits. But it isn't discipline, it's choice that makes it possible.

I do things that I may not enjoy. I clean up dog poop in the yard regularly. I do it not because I enjoy the act, but because I enjoy the end result. I like not having crap on shoes and bare feet and not smelling it as I walk through the yard. It isn't self-discipline that brings me to that decision, it is desire. I want to have a pleasant garden. So, for me, doing things I don't want to do only happens when I want the outcome of the act. And, actually, I can sometimes even enjoy the process. I used to hate doing the dishes. Really hated it. In the early days of my relationship with David we used to go as long as possible without doing the dishes. It was kind of a waiting game to see who would give in first. I like doing dishes now. I find it peaceful to put my hands in the warm water and stare out the window and make them clean. It is such a calming process. When things are overwhelming I find it very relaxing, or even if things are only mildly crazy it
gives me 15 minutes of space. It also produces an end result that I enjoy. At 4 and 6 there isn't a big sense of time or causality. It is hard to see that doing something unpleasant can lead to something pleasant. Age and time give you perspective. I wouldn't expect a 6 year old to get that there are things you have to do even if you don't want to do them. I still don't get that and I'm 40. But, if there were things that I, the parent, wanted done, like cleaning a room, I would do them. I might invite Simon or Linnaea to help, but I would do them, without resentment, even if they said no. The things that I want done are about me and not about Simon and Linnaea. A clean room is my need not theirs. If they want something done, like having their toys in an order they can cope with, than I am happy to help, or cooking some culinary creation that they dreamt up or desired. I'll even do the clean up. I figure I get to help make their childhoods joyful, I take
that pretty seriously.


<snip>
I have been unschooling/ homeschooling 2 boys (6yr and 4yr) for a
little while now. We have tried the traditional homeschool approach
and I am exhausted of arguing,pleading, threatening, bribing,coercing ,
my son to 'do his school'. I saw a bright, curious, book loving boy
begin to become negative and distant, so unschooling seems very
enticing to us.
<snip>

At 6 your son isn't school age in many place and at 4 your youngest isn't mandatory school age anywhere I know (ooh, Northern Ireland has a compulsory school age of 4, so I'm wrong). What so you think they require at such young ages that takes arguing, pleading, threatening, bribing and coercing? You haven't been unschooling if that is what it is taking. Unschooling doesn't "do school" at its most basic, your list of manipulation argues that you are a long way from basic unschooling. It sounds like you've been very intensive to have your son switch from joy to resentment so quickly.

<snip>
My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
learn to read...
<snip>

6 to never is a long, long drive. My son is 11 and he isn't a fluent reader yet. I know children who weren't fluent until they were 13 or older. And yet you cannot tell them from earlier readers. Maybe that isn't comforting. Maybe what you want to hear is that unschooling will give you a guaranteed reader by age x. Ther isn't a guarantee. School doesn't give you a guaranteed reader by age 18. Unschooling, I think, has a better track record. The difference is that in school you are labelled for not reading by a certain age, in unschooling the label isn't applied so there is no need to be limited by it. Unschooling can help you to see the glory in the non-reader. Simon listens in ways that I cannot. He pays intense attention to visual and audial information where I look for the written word. I have a really hard time listening to someone read a book, but he can be mesmerized by books on cd and knows exactly what is going on. Playing video games with him is
really enlightening, he picks out the clue to the next step so much faster than I do while I try and pick the clue out from text or what I remember from the written word. And he remembers details from conversations that I didn't catch or don't remember, he listens.

Not reading early is not a handicap. And 6 is early. Worrying about it and pressing and prodding for it just helps your son to feel like he is stupid or obstinate to not be reading yet. It won't get him reading any earlier than he's going to read without you worrying. Actually it might make it later, it might just make him feel like it is something too difficult and too awful and he just can't do it. Relax and read to him as much as he likes. What a treat for you. Simon prefers having Stephen Fry read to him these days. He can go on and on and on whereas my voice gives in after a few chapters.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beth Fleming

 
My son is 9 and a half and is reading on his own now.....after being read to for MANY years.  He still loves to be read to, but two weeks ago, found an old b-day present (a book on codes.)  He curled up on the couch for a few hours and was reading it, and then came into the kitchen to me and announced ,"I have to say, Mom, that I'm really reading this book!"  High interest, no pressure from me or anyone else.  Now he's also into the Captain Underpants books (so funny and 9 yo boyish humor!  I highly recommend them!) and reading them on his own, with the occasional "what's this word?", which I tell him.  Just keep reading to your child and telling him words when he asks and if he's interested.  IMO, 6 is very young!!   It will come in its own time, and maybe not how or when you expect, but when your child is ready.  Have faith and trust. It WILL come! 
Peace,
Beth



----- Original Message ----
From: stephaniedenap <stephaniedenaples@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 11:24:33 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] New unschooling concerns/questions


Hi!
I have been unschooling/ homeschooling 2 boys (6yr and 4yr) for a
little while now. We have tried the traditional homeschool approach
and I am exhausted of arguing,pleading, threatening, bribing,coercing ,
my son to 'do his school'. I saw a bright, curious, book loving boy
begin to become negative and distant, so unschooling seems very
enticing to us. My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?

My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
learn to read...

Thanks for any suggestions






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I want to add to what Schuyler has said here. I can see that unschooling is
very new to you by what you've written, and I would encourage lots of
reading about it (here http://sandradodd.com/typical -a very enticing page-
and here http://sandradodd.com/reading and also here
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/).

I have a 5 year old who is reading a bit here and there, hardly fluent but
he's reading some. Where might he have learned to read? Not much directly
from me but he *has* been playing on the computer since before he was 3.
Today he wants to go to park day, and his vision is to have a carnival
complete with playacting clothes and fake tattoos and marshmallows and
cotton candy to share with others. I thought he meant sharing with the
other kids but he says no.. he wants grownups to dress up too. He wants a
real carnival, and he's ok with letting it be at the park. He compromised
on it not being at night time. There's a lot more to Karl's life than
learning to read. He's busy. Reading is just a part of it.

~Katherine



On 9/10/08, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
> to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
> things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?
> <snip>
>
> I don't understand the term self-discipline. I really don't. Discipline
> seems to me to come from an external source. Self-discipline always reeks of
> hair shirts and medieval lessons in piety to me. I wouldn't consider myself
> a particularly disciplined person, and yet I manage to do most of what I
> want to do. I have even managed to change my habits. But it isn't
> discipline, it's choice that makes it possible.
>
> I do things that I may not enjoy. I clean up dog poop in the yard
> regularly. I do it not because I enjoy the act, but because I enjoy the end
> result. I like not having crap on shoes and bare feet and not smelling it as
> I walk through the yard. It isn't self-discipline that brings me to that
> decision, it is desire. I want to have a pleasant garden. So, for me, doing
> things I don't want to do only happens when I want the outcome of the act.
> And, actually, I can sometimes even enjoy the process. I used to hate doing
> the dishes. Really hated it. In the early days of my relationship with David
> we used to go as long as possible without doing the dishes. It was kind of a
> waiting game to see who would give in first. I like doing dishes now. I find
> it peaceful to put my hands in the warm water and stare out the window and
> make them clean. It is such a calming process. When things are overwhelming
> I find it very relaxing, or even if things are only mildly crazy it
> gives me 15 minutes of space. It also produces an end result that I enjoy.
> At 4 and 6 there isn't a big sense of time or causality. It is hard to see
> that doing something unpleasant can lead to something pleasant. Age and time
> give you perspective. I wouldn't expect a 6 year old to get that there are
> things you have to do even if you don't want to do them. I still don't get
> that and I'm 40. But, if there were things that I, the parent, wanted done,
> like cleaning a room, I would do them. I might invite Simon or Linnaea to
> help, but I would do them, without resentment, even if they said no. The
> things that I want done are about me and not about Simon and Linnaea. A
> clean room is my need not theirs. If they want something done, like having
> their toys in an order they can cope with, than I am happy to help, or
> cooking some culinary creation that they dreamt up or desired. I'll even do
> the clean up. I figure I get to help make their childhoods joyful, I take
> that pretty seriously.
>
> <snip>
> I have been unschooling/ homeschooling 2 boys (6yr and 4yr) for a
> little while now. We have tried the traditional homeschool approach
> and I am exhausted of arguing,pleading, threatening, bribing,coercing ,
> my son to 'do his school'. I saw a bright, curious, book loving boy
> begin to become negative and distant, so unschooling seems very
> enticing to us.
> <snip>
>
> At 6 your son isn't school age in many place and at 4 your youngest isn't
> mandatory school age anywhere I know (ooh, Northern Ireland has a compulsory
> school age of 4, so I'm wrong). What so you think they require at such young
> ages that takes arguing, pleading, threatening, bribing and coercing? You
> haven't been unschooling if that is what it is taking. Unschooling doesn't
> "do school" at its most basic, your list of manipulation argues that you are
> a long way from basic unschooling. It sounds like you've been very intensive
> to have your son switch from joy to resentment so quickly.
>
> <snip>
> My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
> learn to read...
> <snip>
>
> 6 to never is a long, long drive. My son is 11 and he isn't a fluent reader
> yet. I know children who weren't fluent until they were 13 or older. And yet
> you cannot tell them from earlier readers. Maybe that isn't comforting.
> Maybe what you want to hear is that unschooling will give you a guaranteed
> reader by age x. Ther isn't a guarantee. School doesn't give you a
> guaranteed reader by age 18. Unschooling, I think, has a better track
> record. The difference is that in school you are labelled for not reading by
> a certain age, in unschooling the label isn't applied so there is no need to
> be limited by it. Unschooling can help you to see the glory in the
> non-reader. Simon listens in ways that I cannot. He pays intense attention
> to visual and audial information where I look for the written word. I have a
> really hard time listening to someone read a book, but he can be mesmerized
> by books on cd and knows exactly what is going on. Playing video games with
> him is
> really enlightening, he picks out the clue to the next step so much faster
> than I do while I try and pick the clue out from text or what I remember
> from the written word. And he remembers details from conversations that I
> didn't catch or don't remember, he listens.
>
> Not reading early is not a handicap. And 6 is early. Worrying about it and
> pressing and prodding for it just helps your son to feel like he is stupid
> or obstinate to not be reading yet. It won't get him reading any earlier
> than he's going to read without you worrying. Actually it might make it
> later, it might just make him feel like it is something too difficult and
> too awful and he just can't do it. Relax and read to him as much as he
> likes. What a treat for you. Simon prefers having Stephen Fry read to him
> these days. He can go on and on and on whereas my voice gives in after a few
> chapters.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ariana Zora Ziminsky

Then read, read, read to him, as long as you can!

Don't worry about teaching him *to* read; instead, share with him the love
of reading, and when his brain and spirit are ready, he will start *wanting*
to decipher the code of reading on his own, in the way that works best for
him.

I have seen this first-hand with my own 6 yo son; we tried "learning to
read" at home but after a little while, he didn't want to "do school"
anymore and insisted he couldn't read. So we stopped official school time
completely (this was about 8 months ago, after maybe 3 months of "school at
home" about two hours a week), and that's around the time I discovered
unschooling.

He has always loved stories, books on CD, me reading aloud to him, etc. So
we kept up with plenty of that. (I enjoy them as well!) Then, other night,
at, like 9:50 p.m., when noone was sleepy enough to fall asleep, he asked
for a reading flashlight, cracked open the old reading "textbook" we used to
use, and read halfway through it, on his own. He was soooooo happy, and
sooooo proud - it is totally worth it. He's not lightning speed or perfect,
but he is thrilled and *wants* to learn more and more and more about
reading. And he totally owns his ability to read, 100 percent.

It's a big changed from the whining "I don't want to do school...." although
there was certainly a time of "de-schooling" where he had to see that I
really meant that I was never going to force him to sit down and read again.
I had to toally drop anything to do with reading for several months. (I
couldn't even ask him to read his own name or the word "Go" or anything!!
LOL!) Luckily, at this young age, they can de-school quickly!

- Ariana


> My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
> learn to read...

stephaniedenap

You are right. Recently we have been a long way from unschooling, yet
I look back to what we have done up until we started 'schooling' and
we were unschooling. I didn't push anything except I tried to be
enthusiastic about seeking new experiences and provided educational
toys all around them. I moved to a very conservative and traditional
area (Pa) and since have been feeling the pressure from family and
society to be doing more.
Where I begin to get nervous with unschooling is when I read of
parents allowing their kids to watch TV all day. Maybe for some kids
they would eventually get bored or move on to other things, but my
kids would sit there ALL day. I just don't believe that just because
they are happy watching Spongebob, I should allow it. Maybe I'm
misunderstanding.
I'm sure many of you understand the real pressures from society and
the fears they can encourage. I am not a wimp and am comfortable
standing apart on many levels. I am admittedly still a little nervous
about the school thing though. My brother is a teacher and gave me a
long lecture about 'scaffolding' and how children have ages when they
are sensitive to certain concepts and if the structure is not there
from the start they will forever have learning difficulties. How do
Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
languages)?
How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
attention that makes the difference?

Thanks so much for the responses and encouragement. I am completely on
my own here but feel in my heart we are on the right track.

Nance Confer

unschoolingbasics My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?

*********
By doing things they want to do and seeing what it takes.

My DS didn't get his recent 3rd degree black belt because I made him do it.

My DD doesn't ace her online courses because I make her do it.

Both involve many steps to get to a goal and some of the steps are just plain hard work.

As for reading, if everyone around you is reading, you soon see how useful it is. And, in your own time, you may be demanding to know more about it. That's how I remember my DD. Standing by my side while I was at the computer one day, completely fed up. "Everyone else can read. I want to know how. Now." Turned out she knew more than she thought she did and was reading independently after a short while but it was never formally addressed until she wanted more. Vehemently! :) Now, she wants to know when we can go to the library today. (As soon as it stops storming out.)

Your mileage may vary. :)

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amberlee_b

I agree with this. My now 10 year old son loves Hardy Boy mysteries and will read for hours.
Then I introduced him to Calvin and Hobbes. He saw it on my bookshelf and asked to read it,
I said sure but that he *might* want the English versions (although the Spanish is fine
too....too funny).....He read what I had (Spanish too) and has order everyone the library owns.
He will ask when he doesn't know a word, or look it up himself. The BIG words lead to him
starting Treasure Island. Yes, really. The unabridged version, he said it HAD to be
unabridged. He was worried they would "take out the good words". All on his own he does
this. :)

He started reading "late" according to public school, we knew he *could* read but he didn't
want to....until his younger sister started reading and then he "suddenly" could do it to. LOL
We didn't push him because we knew he would when he was ready. This is a child who didn't
speak till age 3 (just grunts and pointing) and then in complete long sentences.

His younger sister did everything early--she wanted to catch up with her big brothers.
Everyone has their own time table. I just wish the schools would figure that out and leave
drugs out of the equation. Ah but there is big money in both I guess...so no school for us.

amberlee_b

Oooooo we would love a carnival like that!!!! We like to dress up, we had done a lot of
theater before moving to PA....so much fun!


>
> I have a 5 year old who is reading a bit here and there, hardly fluent but
> he's reading some. Where might he have learned to read? Not much directly
> from me but he *has* been playing on the computer since before he was 3.
> Today he wants to go to park day, and his vision is to have a carnival
> complete with playacting clothes and fake tattoos and marshmallows and
> cotton candy to share with others. I thought he meant sharing with the
> other kids but he says no.. he wants grownups to dress up too. He wants a
> real carnival, and he's ok with letting it be at the park. He compromised
> on it not being at night time. There's a lot more to Karl's life than
> learning to read. He's busy. Reading is just a part of it.
>
> ~Katherine

Michele James-Parham

--- In [email protected], "stephaniedenap"
<stephaniedenaples@...> wrote:
>
> You are right. Recently we have been a long way from unschooling, yet
> I look back to what we have done up until we started 'schooling' and
> we were unschooling. I didn't push anything except I tried to be
> enthusiastic about seeking new experiences and provided educational
> toys all around them. I moved to a very conservative and traditional
> area (Pa) and since have been feeling the pressure from family and
> society to be doing more.

pretty much everyone goes through 'unschooling' before they send their
children off to school or 'school at home' -- for those whom don't
catch wind of or instinctively hold unschooling principles in their
hearts from day one.

If children are able to learn to crawl, walk & talk on their own
(among soooo many other things) before 'school age', then why do we
treat them like they are magically incapable of learning anything else
on their own once they reach a certain age?

Where in PA have you moved? We are in Pittsburgh. At some point either
your family will 'get' it or you will have to make it known to them
that these are your children and if they care about their learning,
then they can choose to become more supportive or they can back off
with all the negativity. If your family can not support you and
interactions are always negative and have you second guessing
yourself, then limiting interactions with the family is healthy. If
it's not possible to limit, then make it clear that homeschooling
isn't up for debate.

> Where I begin to get nervous with unschooling is when I read of
> parents allowing their kids to watch TV all day. Maybe for some kids
> they would eventually get bored or move on to other things, but my
> kids would sit there ALL day. I just don't believe that just because
> they are happy watching Spongebob, I should allow it. Maybe I'm
> misunderstanding.

I'm sure if your children have had limits on their TV time up until
now, then they would binge and watch TV ALL day long. It is only
natural for children (and adults) to rebel against arbitrary limits &
rules. There is obviously something that THEY find valuable in
Spongebob...maybe you can sit down and watch with them and during
commercials or after an episode, you can ask them about it their
favorite parts or why they love that particular episode more than the
last one. Also, children use TV just like adults to unwind and tune
out...if the the rest of their day is full of limits and rules (as
well as 'schooly' pressure) then TV is 'heaven'.

> I'm sure many of you understand the real pressures from society and
> the fears they can encourage. I am not a wimp and am comfortable
> standing apart on many levels. I am admittedly still a little nervous
> about the school thing though.

Oh, yes! I understand the pressure, but I also learned a long time ago
that if I do what other people then I am not being true to myself and
I am usually miserable. This is my life and I control it, not society.

> My brother is a teacher and gave me a
> long lecture about 'scaffolding' and how children have ages when they
> are sensitive to certain concepts and if the structure is not there
> from the start they will forever have learning difficulties. How do
> Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
> when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
> languages)?

I'll use reading as an example. Children 'need' to learn to read by 6,
because if they don't, then teachers have a hard time teaching! When a
student doesn't read or doesn't read up to the level YOU 'need', then
you 'have to' do all the work and can't shovel heaps onto them. In
school, there are plenty of learning milestones that need to be met,
if a teacher is to do his/her job. However, we ALL know and talk about
how every child is different, learns different and on their own time
table. You can not accurately or fairly compare unschooled children
(even some homeschooled) to schooled children...when you are not free
to learn, then you end up being 'educated'.

> How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
> have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
> unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
> attention that makes the difference?

Every culture/country has its own idea of success. Does everyone
'need' school to meet that idea of success? Can the idea of success be
changed. When a lot of the world is more concerned about when the next
meal will take place and whether or not it will, they could care less
about 'school' as you or I know it. I could be wrong, but I do believe
that most developing countries has at least private schools available
and even 'primative' basic grammar schools...it would be most third
world countries that have very little to no 'school' as we would
define it.

However, children all over the world (unless they are separated by
school) learn from their parents what they need to know to build their
homes, make a fire, hunt (if necessary), sew, cook, basic healing and
so on. Positive parental attention and involvement always makes a
difference for the better, no matter where you live.

michele
www.naturalattachment.net

Faith Void

> You are right. Recently we have been a long way from unschooling, yet
> I look back to what we have done up until we started 'schooling' and
> we were unschooling. I didn't push anything except I tried to be
> enthusiastic about seeking new experiences and provided educational
> toys all around them. I moved to a very conservative and traditional
> area (Pa) and since have been feeling the pressure from family and
> society to be doing more.
>











***Can you feel the pressure without letting it change how you relate to
your children? I also live in PA, a little rural town of 500 with no other
unschoolers.

Where I begin to get nervous with unschooling is when I read of
parents allowing their kids to watch TV all day.

***I think you are not understanding this concept. My children are free to
choose what they do, that includes watching TV whenever they want to (all
day if that suits them). That doesn't mean I "let" them. To allow some one
is *not* the same as giving them freedom to choose their path. My dd who has
pneumonia will likely watch TV and or be on the computer all day for the
next few days. Typically my children choose other things, my ds 5 is playing
legos, my dd1 y is traipsing about playing with various things, interacting
with me or her brother.

Maybe for some kids
they would eventually get bored or move on to other things, but my
kids would sit there ALL day.

***are you positive this is the truth? Have you truly given them freedom to
not only watch TV when they want but to enjoy it? Are you providing
different exciting options for them to choose from? Are you taking them
places they want to go?


I just don't believe that just because
they are happy watching Spongebob, I should allow it. Maybe I'm
misunderstanding.

***I do believe that you are misunderstanding. What *IS* more important than
their happiness? What about their happiness in TV watching bothers you?

I'm sure many of you understand the real pressures from society and
the fears they can encourage. I am not a wimp and am comfortable
standing apart on many levels. I am admittedly still a little nervous
about the school thing though. My brother is a teacher and gave me a
long lecture about 'scaffolding' and how children have ages when they
are sensitive to certain concepts and if the structure is not there
from the start they will forever have learning difficulties.

**(then explain through this theory how adults learn to read? Or learn
anything? I


How do
Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
languages)?

*** I don't know about other unschoolers but I believe in listening to
children as individuals. I follow where my children lead me on their path.
I, also, show them things on my path. I show them things I think might make
their path more enjoyable. I accept that they may or may not agree with me.

How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
attention that makes the difference?

***unschool, like life is a verb. Simply not going to school doesn't
necessarily make you an unschooler. Unschooling does NOT equal neglect.
Actively pursuing life in whatever direction is joyous for you (personally
and communally) is unschooling. It is finding, making or in some way
obtaining the resdources you (or you child) needs to have the life you want.

Real life example: My ds 5 discovered Pokemon. We found out the game that
most of his friends used and got it. He doesn't read so we played it with
him. He reaally got into it so we looked for the play books. They contain
maps, charts, special stuff, etc. We learned/played along with him. He
wanted more, we found pokemon toys, online game, books to read, dvds, etc.
We have recently found the card game yu-gi-u through this. NOt only has
these things broadened his intellectual scope but it shows him we value his
desires and pursuits. Pokemon is about joy for him.

Faith
--
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

<snip>
Where I begin to get nervous with unschooling is when I read of
parents allowing their kids to watch TV all day
<snip>

Simon spent much of today watching media, youtube more than television, and he watched some videos that I found at http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/nature/index.html which were funny and cool oh and this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX3QCaqLtJ8&e which I got from a blog that I read by Robert Rummel-Hudson about life with his daughter Schuyler who has a genetic disorder called Bilateral perisylvian polymicrogyria. He also went outside to run on the newly plowed fields surrounding us and helped to feed the baby mouse that he and Linnaea rescued from one of our cats yesterday. But mostly he's been watching a couple of different Let's Play programs on youtube. Linnaea and I watched an Wile Coyote cartoon where he dug through the earth and ended up in China which got me looking for a program that I can remember using where you could dig through the earth and come up on the other side to see where you'd end up from New Mexico or Arizona.
Google Earth has a program that lets you do that, so I installed Google Earth and then added the network link that lets you dig through the earth. Turns out you need to be in South America to hit China. All of the Southwest that I explored puts you in the ocean. All of the UK seems to drop you off near New Zealand, but still near some deep sea vents, I imagine. Not very inspiring for a child with a shovel. But really cool to have at my internet fingertips.

I absolutely allow my children watch television all day. Turns out there are very few days when that is all that they do. Even if the television is on in the background there are a lot of other things going on. Eating, drawing, creating, gaming, running after cats, feeding baby mice, having friends over, baking pies, mowing the lawn, dancing DDR, whittling...and it just goes on. If I didn't allow them television all day, television would become the best thing they got to do that day. It would be the apex of a series of apex-worthy activities. Maybe it is somedays. Maybe the new episode of My Name is Earl trumps swimming or hanging in the hot tub or making apple juice. Yay! Thank you television writers and producers. Because I give them the freedom to choose what they do they don't have the added benefit/costs of limitations driving their choices.

<snip>
Maybe for some kids
they would eventually get bored or move on to other things, but my
kids would sit there ALL day.
<snip>

Give them a chance. Some days it is the most engaging thing in our house. Not often. Usually television is most interesting on a day after a day that is really full and engaging and exhausting. Or when there is a new show that they've been waiting for coming on. Youtube has ameliorated some of that, but it still is exciting to catch a new episode or a new show. You are doing your children a disservice. You are creating a powerful monster of the box in your living room, or wherever it is in your house. The only things that engage my children for hours and days are things that are really interesting. Television sometimes is that thing. Sometimes it's books. Linnaea loves the Warrior Cats series and we've been reading through those for months now. Simon can get quite focused on a specific video game, the last one was Super Mario Smash Brothers for the Wii. But other things can capture their interest as well. Simon loves story telling. He doesn't share his
stories very often, but he likes to own the things he watches. It is a hugely physical thing and he's done it for years, 7 years maybe, maybe 8. He will run and move and work through a story and craft the whole thing. He's currently working on one based on Bakugan, a series that he's watched much of on youtube.

By limiting television you've made it the most interesting thing in the house. You've made it super powerful, super strong. It is like the apple of knowledge (or pomegranate, or whatever it was), the very fact of making it forbidden made it more interesting, more sought out. And when they do watch it, seemingly like zombies for hours, you get your proof. Because you know that television is like a drug and will stun your children with it's e-lectronic rays when they do zone out to it, you have your proof. When you stop thinking of television as the opiate of the masses it will help you to see it as a means of engaging with the world.

We went to the zoo the other day and saw the kangaroos. I mentioned that the male kangaroo has a bifurcated penis, two heads, better than 1. Simon said the female has 3 vaginas. I thought maybe two, but not 3. Nope they have 3 vaginas. He's right. Yay television!

<snip>
I just don't believe that just because
they are happy watching Spongebob, I should allow it.
<snip>

I love Spongebob. There is so much going on in that cartoon. What is your criteria for letting someone do something? I ask this in all seriousness. Being happy watching Spongebob seems a good reason to watch it. I've watched a lot of Spongebob. I love the FUN song. I love that Spongebob becomes a dishwashing sponge on a stick when above the water. I love the way the creators have played with the laws of physics underwater. Its a beautiful show. There are reasons why they might be expected to be happy watching Spongebob.


<snip?
My brother is a teacher and gave me a
long lecture about 'scaffolding' and how children have ages when they
are sensitive to certain concepts and if the structure is not there
from the start they will forever have learning difficulties.
<snip>

My husband is a Senior Lecturer (read assistant Professor) at a medical school in the UK. It's a school that uses Problem Based Learning as it's curricullum. David mentioned tonight while we were making dinner together that doctors from UEA don't take a lot of hardcore science. They don't study anatomy unto memorization. It isn't part of the curricullum. However, when they are tested as doctors, there is no difference in anatomic understanding between those more classically educated and those educated using the more modern approach. Scaffolding is worth questioning.

Okay, I just went and looked up what scaffolding in education is and I got irritated. Scaffolding is when you, the student, build knowledge through experience based on the rules that a teacher lays out for you. The rules are the scaffolding. But you don't put scaffolding up around a building as you build it. You put scaffolding up, against an already existing building usually, to work on either a building that is in need of repair or maintenance or to go up higher on a building that you are constructing. But there has to be building in place for there to be scaffolding. I'm sure that it is born from the term foundations in learning. They wanted to stick with the construction industry analogy. Man. It just bothers me.

So I'm wrong. David's experience isn't relevant. Wikipedia has the best definition I can find of scaffolding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructional_scaffolding. According to the definition I scaffold all the time. I help Simon and Linnaea achieve their goals, engage with their interests by supporting them (which building scaffolding doesn't do) during the process. I don't define the building though. I am not a mold that I want them to conform to. They are much more interesting and engaging being their own selves. I certainly don't want to define or limit them.

<snip>
How do
Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
languages)?
<snip>

There is probably a time to acquire first language skills. The problem is that anyone who didn't get it as an infant was in a really screwed up environment and it is hard to figure out if that was the cause of language delays or if it was the not being open to language during the sensitive period. But there isn't any sensitive period to second language, or it is still debated whether there truly is a sensitive period for second language acquisition. It's kind of cool thing to research. There is actually still active debate about the degree to which there is a sensitive period to first language acquisition. If the theoreticians are right about that your eldest is beyond the window and your youngest is just about out of it. It might be worth your peace of mind to let go of the notion.

<snip>
How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
have no opportunity/ resources for school?
<snip>

I have 3 computers in my home. I have access to lots of museums and art galleries and scientific equipment and theatre and movies and television and food and books and so on and so forth. I live in a world filled with plenty. I share that with my children.

<snip>
Are those children
unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
attention that makes the difference?
<snip>

They are unschooled at the basic level. If not schooling is your level of requirement for unschooling than yes they are unschooled. Among the Mayans of Belize that David interviewed when he was doing his dissertation fieldwork many had little school experience. Often they could read and do math. They needed those skills when dealing with the people who were buying their crops, so they got them.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 10, 2008, at 11:43 AM, stephaniedenap wrote:

> I didn't push anything except I tried to be
> enthusiastic about seeking new experiences and provided educational
> toys all around them.

It helps people turn away from schooling to not divide the world into
educational and non-educational. To help see through unschooling
eyes, the world is full of things kids are interested in and not
(yet) interested in. Anything a child is interested in is filled with
learning.

"Educational" items are often set up to lead the child from where
they are to some goal. It's done that way because schools need to
demonstrate to parents, administrators and the state that learning is
taking place. They need a goal and they need to have a way to show
the child has reached the goal (tests).

Learning happens whether those outside the child know it or not.
Which makes unschooling scary and frustrating! We want to see it and
reassure ourselves that it's happening.

But kids learn to speak without testing or educational toys. Kids go
from not knowing language exists to having it nailed before they
reach five. But society dismisses that totally awesome achievement as
though it were magical. It's not. It's how kids learn: they play
around with something, they use it for personally meaningful
purposes, they get feedback on how well what they tried worked and
they refine their use. And they aren't even doing that deliberately.
It's how humans are hardwired to learn.

Think about how easy it is for kids to learn to speak without a
lesson or test in sight. Think about how hard it is for kids to learn
Spanish in school with lots of lessons and tests? Which works better?

And it works for everything a child wants to know. The problem is
that it doesn't look at all like school learning. It looks like
playing. It looks like watching TV. It looks like chatting. It looks
like messing around.

> Where I begin to get nervous with unschooling is when I read of
> parents allowing their kids to watch TV all day.

I didn't let my daughter watch TV all day. But she had the freedom to
choose what she wanted to do. TV was one of the things available.
Before 10 she watched a little. Between 10 and 11 she watched a lot.
After 11 TV watching dropped off again.

> Maybe for some kids
> they would eventually get bored or move on to other things, but my
> kids would sit there ALL day.

Kids will watch TV "all day" for several reasons. One common reason
is because they know it's limited. They need to cram it in now while
it's available because they may not be able to get it later. (Very
typical adult behavior when adults know a limit is approaching.
Happened majorly during past gas crises.)

Another is because it's the least boring option. If life isn't
sparkly, TV can look like the best option. The problem is that often
parents will look around at all the toys and see the kids watching TV
and feel as though the TV had some magical drawing power. In some
ways maybe it does. I think it fills in a social niche that's
probably missing. My daughter didn't play often with her stuffed
animals unless someone else was over to do it with her.

And another is that during the prepubescent years 10ish to 12ish
(give or take) kids are transitioning from kid interests to teen
interests. It's an awkward between stage where it's hard for them to
figure out what interests them. And maybe they also become more
subconsciously interested in social relationships so they're drawn to
the drama of social interactions on TV. It's *very* common for that
age to become fascinated by Nikelodeon and Cartoon Network.

And one more is that kids can feel trapped by the programmers'
schedule. My daughter (when she was 10-11, found it hard to walk away
from cartoons because she didn't know what she might miss. If we were
going out I'd put in a tape for her to record them. More often than
not she wouldn't watch it later. She just needed to feel she had the
option to watch or not watch. What helped hugely was getting TiVo so
she could program in her favorite shows and watch them whenever she
wanted. Her TV watching went *way* down after that (though she was
also older and getting beyond the prepubescent stage. I wish we had
gotten it a year earlier so I could give a more accurate picture of
the effect. But she was showing less TV watching when the programs
were taped so I'm speculating that she would have been more
discriminating with TiVo.)

> but my
> kids would sit there ALL day.

Sandra Dodd has made a collection:

http://sandradodd.com/ifilet

Funny thing is that once parents get unschooling, their kids aren't
even coming close to doing the things the parents were sure they
would. Kids may do more than the parents would have chosen for them,
but they do eventually (once they get past the initial glut period,
once they wear out the newness of a new game) do other things. It
helps lots if parents aren't pulling the kids away, but are providing
plenty of other opportunities that the kids like as well as or better
than a single activity. (But sometimes that single activity *is* what
they want to do and the best thing is to keep the door to other
things open while they get what they want from the experience.)

> I just don't believe that just because
> they are happy watching Spongebob, I should allow it. Maybe I'm
> misunderstanding.

You're seeing Spongebob as non-educational. Unschoolers see that
enjoyment means they're getting something they need from it.

That's one of the hard things to grasp about unschooling. Mainstream
society divides the world into play and work. (Learning being lumped
in with work.) Unschoolers know that profound learning comes from
engagement and fun and enjoyment.

That doesn't mean that we let them go and watch Spongebob until their
eyeballs fall out and feel our task is done. Unschooling is about
filling their lives with things they enjoy (since enjoyment means
learning). Unfortunately that sounds like "keeping them entertained,"
but that's not unschooling. That's seeing life through Puritanical
schoolish eyes where learning is child's work. Unschooling is
recognizing that learning happens when kids are exploring what
interests them and makes them happy.

> My brother is a teacher and gave me a
> long lecture about 'scaffolding' and how children have ages when they
> are sensitive to certain concepts and if the structure is not there
> from the start they will forever have learning difficulties.

Teachers speak with such authority. The speak as though they know
everything there is to know about learning.

But not one of them has ever experienced a child who has had the
opportunity to learn on their own schedule whatever interests them.

Really think about that. He's speaking as though he knows that it
isn't possible, but neither he, nor his professors, nor the authors
of any of the textbooks he read, has ever met an unschooling family.
They simply are completely ignorant of natural learning.

The problem is they think they know because to educators kids without
school don't exist. All teachers know is the behavior of kids in
coerced learning environments.

> How do
> Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
> when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
> languages)?

There's something to that, but less than educators might theorize.
It's important to realize they have no way of testing it. What will
they do? Have two sets of kids: one who are given reading instruction
and a control group where reading instruction is withheld? And do the
same with math instruction? But all they'd be testing is the results
of presence or lack of instruction. Unschoolers may not instruct, but
they fill that gap with life where kids are exploring the concepts by
using them in real, natural, personally meaningful ways.

Obviously it's much easier for kids to absorb language when they're
little. But most adults -- who don't shut down from fear -- find that
immersion is the best way to learn a language. Just like little kids.
(An adult has to be open to the learning and actively using it. Just
being plunked down in a foreign country without the desire to work at
picking up the language won't work.)

And I think another thing that makes people believe that earlier is
better is child prodigies. They start early and master early. It
*seems* like the big factor is starting early. But the big factor is
that prodigies are *pulling* in what fascinates them. That's what
little kids are doing with language: they pull it in because it's
interesting and they're finding it useful for their own purposes.

My daughter started taking guitar lessons two years ago after 15
years of not showing much musical inclination other than liking to
listen to rock. At first she practiced what she was told to do and
making slow progress. It was frustrating for her. Then in November
she discovered Van Halen and wanted to be like Eddie :-) At that
point she started *pulling* in everything she could and her progress
shot up. (If anyone wants to see what she could do 8 months after
finding a passion for 80s rock, you can see her friend's recital with
Kill the King by Megadeth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXyxZh4ups

They only had two practices together. The beginning, she said, is
simple, just keeping the beat basically but halfway through she gets
to solo and demonstrate what passion does for learning :-)

Force and going through the motions can't replace the effect of the
passion to pull stuff in. And unfortunately we can't control passion.
But we can open all the doors so for them to explore and find passion
for themselves and then support their exploration. The Van Halen Vol
1 DVD would hardly be classified as educational by any educator but
it's probably more learning-filled than any "educational" item we
brought into the house.

> How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
> have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
> unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
> attention that makes the difference?

Resources and attention and support and freedom is absolutely vital.
Just removing school isn't enough.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

>Maybe for some kids
> they would eventually get bored or move on to other things, but my
> kids would sit there ALL day. I just don't believe that just because
> they are happy watching Spongebob, I should allow it. Maybe I'm
> misunderstanding.
How do you know? You've never experienced it...Yes, if there is
NOTHING more interesting than Spongebob AND they fear that it will be
taken away immediately if they leave, then sure they'll watch all the
time. BUT step back and really *see* what they are doing...very few
kids (who aren't afraid that it'll be taken away if they move their
eyes from the screen) simply "sit". There's often talking, thinking,
sketching, other sorts of play going on (My DS will grab the k'nex or
legos or his sketchpad or his laptop or his Nintendo DS if he's not
connecting with us over some program...and sometimes even if he is).
Change the focus and apply it to yourself "I love to <garden, read,
draw, ...> I get really involved when I do it. Sometimes I even
forget to eat or sleep when I've got a new <novel, set of pastels,
type of plant to care for>. If my spouse forced me to stop after 30
minutes at a set time of day, I'd feel <name an emotion> and I'd want
to <action>" Odds are, whatever that limited thing is, you'd look for
ways to get more of it and you wouldn't want to miss a single minute
of it when it was 'permitted'. Take it or leave it but there are lots
of us who don't now (and some who never have) limited media access
(TV, videogames, etc) for our children and our kids are the ones
leaving the room, turning it off, finding other things to do. It is
real and it does "work" but not until you put away the fear of 'what
if...' And, yes, some people (not just kids) will choose to watch a
LOT more TV than others, but then I know people who spend a lot more
time gardening than I do and I spend a lot more time reading than
some adults I know. There's another alternate thought process "If my
child read books all day, I'd <fill in the blank>" Generally
speaking, reading for hours at a time is considered a "good" thing
while watching TV for hours is a "bad" thing. But neither is
accurate - reading and TV are just tools to get information,
entertainment, recreation, etc. A co-worker's MIL is a movie critic -
she watches 8 to 10 hours of movies per day. My co-worker and her DH
(son of the movie critic) don't even have a TV. Which is "better"?
Neither, they're just different choices. Thing is, your fear of TV is
taking away your children's choices.

> How do
> Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
> when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
> languages)?

Horse hockey (okay that's not speaking for all unschoolers, just me).
The "normal" range for reading is roughly 4 to 13 - such a large
range makes even having a range pretty silly, dontchathink? Anything
that the brain is 'sensitive' to will be learned, lessons not
required. Our culture is awash in symbolic language (that'd be
reading) - there's no way a child in an average American household
can avoid being exposed to letters and sounds. And, it gets absorbed
in exactly the amount and timing that they can handle at that time.
So, what's the point of specifying 'sensitive' periods if you are
making the whole world accessible freely and facilitating each
individual child's interests, regardless of whether it falls in
a 'sensitive' period. With the whole world available, what the
individual is 'sensitive' to will be absorbed whenever and however.
No need to "invent" lessons or whatever - LIFE is out there.

> How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
> have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
> unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
> attention that makes the difference?
Those kids are lacking basic survival needs, much less schooling.
That's a whole other thing. You're trying to compare apples and
tangerines here. I'm 100% for folks establishing schools in places
like Cite Soleil, Port-au-Prince, Haiti - those families have zero
resources. As you note, we have such an abundance of resources that
it's near impossible, for instance, for an American child to NOT be
exposed to the written word. It's generally "normal" for Haitian
children to rarely see the printed word. Huge difference.

--Deb

lyeping2008

--- In [email protected], "stephaniedenap"
<stephaniedenaples@...> wrote:

My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
> to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline
to do things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?
>
> My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Stephanie,

Self discipline is self invoke. Which is why it's called SELF
discipline and not IMPOSED discipline. The reason we have self
discipline is because we have priority list of things that needs
doing. In order to accomplished this list of things, we need a
schedule, which requires us to monitor our time usage. This is
called A discipline, a set of systems or regulations.

Your priorities is very very different compared to your kid's.
Therefore your self discipline pattern will be very difference
compare to your kid's.

You as a mother and home-person have a very long list of priorities.
Housework, cooking, responsibilities, yourself and educating your
kid. Which means you need a very tight and busy self dicipline if
you need to accomplish much.

Your kid, on the other hand, has very little priorities, for now. He
only does what's relevant to a kid - which is to play, watch and
learn. No responsibilities, no deadlines, no accomplishement. For
now, his days will be filled with multiple on-going process of
learning thru watching and playing, which will form his ONLY
priorities for now. He doesn't do housework for it's not relevant
to his needs, he doesn't do responsibilties for he hasn't got any.

So his self discipline will be very simple and relax for now. For
what can you expect out of a little mind that's only been alive for
6 years on earth? Everything takes time, just like from crawling to
walking to running. He hasn't got much target to hit. Everything he
does now will be open-ended, Never finish, but it's always a new
discovery.

His priorities list will grow longer as he matures, adding onto it
more and more interest and things to accomplish. Soon, you'll find
that he'll have 20, if not more, things to create, to research, to
talk about, to read about or to build. Questions to ask, puzzles to
dicipher. Soon he'll wants to complete something, a sense of
accomplishment is needed. This is when he'll evoke his own SELF
discipline- his own internal set of system to work with.

And you have the next 10 years to facilitate his discovery/
learning.

So, start facilitating that language learning interest of his, by
reading to him, as he requested. My child is a very good reader,
he's 8 and he still wants us to read to him every night. And yes, I
believe it is tru reading to him every night for the past 8 years is
what makes him an excellent reader, which eventually manifest into
an excellent speller. My child read first, then learn to spell
later.

He is also very good at Maths too. Just by casual observation and
conversation and lots of video/ online games. We do abit of pc
lessons which is games based, only when he wants too.

Our days are filled with lots of tv watching, lego, video gaming,
online gaming, funny experiments (we're stuck on fire and burning
stuff and learning lots about chemistry). No structure, no routine,
no expectations. He eats what he wants, I eat what I want. We are
really 2 very individual characters at home all the time, until
hubby comes back, and he makes 3.

Geography starts when daddy's home because news will be on, and
documentary shows will most likely follows.

I do have my "am I doing right?" days but that's expected, for I am
dealing with a real lively talkative child, not a robot. We've been
unschooling for 20 months now, and already my child's self directed
interest/ learning is spread out across Grade 3 - 5.

Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,
SharonBugs.









To unschool will
You have houseworks, responsibilities

lyeping2008

--- In [email protected], "stephaniedenap"
<stephaniedenaples@...> wrote:

How do Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive'
periods when the developing brain is most able to learn certain
things (e.i.languages)?

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Nothing wrong with watching spongebob. There is a learning element
there, even tho we adult cannot see it, doesn't mean we cannot
recognise and accpet a learning is taking place. It's like us
watching a cooking show, our kids probably wondered why we're
watching a show about pots and veg. We are learning something that
doesn't seems relevant to them. So, spongebob is not relevant to us,
which is why we can't see what's there to learn. But I do know my
son did learn of some aquatic animals by watching squarepants LOL!

To what I've read about Maria Montessori and her beliefs in
sensitive periods from birth to 6 yrs old. I think it's possible to
align this philosophy along unschooling, afterall it is just about
mental and brain development. I aligned The Philoshy of Classical
Education along mine - very similar to this montessori idea, it's
just that the CE has a wider and longer age segment and it only have
3 age segment- google it, and you'll find lots to read about it.

We unschoolers talks about naturally learning. We talk about
allowing the child to pursue thier own interest and learn from it,
and it's not necessary Maths or reading. Maths and reading is
normally a secondary produce, that happened to be involved. A happy
accident, i would say. I know it sound horrible, kinda like a hit
and miss situation. But it is not, because Maths and reading is very
much part of our daily existance. So, when our kids pursue thier
interest, they will come in contact with some form of maths and
reading in a more natural setting. This will help them understanding
the application and usage of it. You see, it is the understanding
that creates the learning, and not the memorising. It is when Maths
is taken out of context and presented in an abstract format, that's
when it become confusing and hard.

So, if we're unschooling, we cannot expect the child to voluntaryly
want to seek reading and maths activities just because at age 4 - 6
they are supposed to be reading and math readiness. But I supposed
we can facilitate such periods, by strewing books and tv shows with
this elements around them (i did this) but we cannot expect nor
force them to pick it up and pay attention to them. But then the tv
might just do the trick LOL!

------------------------------------------------------------------
"How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
attention that makes the difference?"

I don't understand your question. Could it be that you're asking if
our unschool children will fare better because of parental attention
and available resouces?

I am Asian, born and grew up in Asia but currently living in UK.
Maybe I might be able to give you an insight of 2 nation, from my
point of view.

Best Wishes
SharonBugs.

k

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>wrote:

> There is probably a time to acquire first language skills. The problem is
>> that anyone who didn't get it as an infant was in a really screwed up
>> environment and it is hard to figure out if that was the cause of language
>> delays ~Schuyler
>>
>



I would think it might be something like poor or no attachment, which could
cause cognitive delays (maybe) and I would think low or no attachment being
traumatic is enough to cause delays if the studies done on children in
Eastern Europe are anything to go by. They had all sorts of development
delays for knowledge acquisition of firsts.

How do unschooled children differ from say, developing
nations who have no opportunity/ resources for school? ~Original Post
Question

There was just a TEDtalk on that posted somewhere on one of the lists by
Sugata Mitra about children in impoverished areas and what his studies
showed about how they can learn. The talk is no longer being aired but you
can read about the talk and download it here:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/speakers/sugata_mitra.html

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I goobered up my post.

I said "could cause cognitive delays (maybe)" and what I want to say is
"could cause" period (but don't have the studies right before me to show for
it, which is why I said "maybe").

I also said Sugata Mitra posted something. I meant to say that there was a
post on one of the boards about his talk. Sorry for any confusion.

~Katherine



On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:18 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>wrote:
>
>> There is probably a time to acquire first language skills. The problem
>>> is that anyone who didn't get it as an infant was in a really screwed up
>>> environment and it is hard to figure out if that was the cause of language
>>> delays ~Schuyler
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> I would think it might be something like poor or no attachment, which could
> cause cognitive delays (maybe) and I would think low or no attachment being
> traumatic is enough to cause delays if the studies done on children in
> Eastern Europe are anything to go by. They had all sorts of development
> delays for knowledge acquisition of firsts.
>
> How do unschooled children differ from say, developing
> nations who have no opportunity/ resources for school? ~Original Post
> Question
>
> There was just a TEDtalk on that posted somewhere on one of the lists by
> Sugata Mitra about children in impoverished areas and what his studies
> showed about how they can learn. The talk is no longer being aired but you
> can read about the talk and download it here:
> http://www.ted.com/index.php/speakers/sugata_mitra.html
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: stephaniedenap <stephaniedenaples@...>

My question is, when/ how do unschooled children come
to understand that sometimes we need to have the self-discipline to do
things we may not want to do but need to for various reasons?

-=-=-=-=-

*I* don't do *anything* I don't want to do. I choose to do some pretty
yucky things. But those are *my* choices. I could choose not to do them
and suffer the consequences---OR I can choose other options.

I don't need "self-discipline" to do those things. It's just a
choice---one I make deliberatively.

-=-=-=-=-=-

My son has no interest in learning how to read(maybe bruised by my
prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
learn to read...

-=-=-=-=-

My younger son is 12. He learned to read by being read to and by being
exposed to the written word. For 12 years. He learned by having all his
questions answered.

Why don't you read to him all day?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Schuyler

Someone sent Sandra Dodd my response to this and she replied to my response over at AlwaysLearning. I thought it might be helpful to someone here and brought it over.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 4:18:50 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Reading

-=-My son is 11 and he isn't a fluent reader yet.
I know children who weren't fluent until they were 13 or older. And
yet you
cannot tell them from earlier readers. Maybe that isn't comforting.
Maybe what
you want to hear is that unschooling will give you a guaranteed
reader by age x.
There isn't a guarantee. School doesn't give you a guaranteed reader
by age 18.-=-

This is from a list I'm not on. A listowner sent me a post because
she thought it was good enough for me to put on my site. She was right.

The author's on this list, and probably all the things I was itching
to write as I read it were written over there, but I'm dying to say
this:

School doesn't guarantee to make readers. School is known to have
produced thousands of NON-readers. School has had some kids who did
learn to read pretty well, and then grew to hate books.

I know of zero unschoolers who totally failed to learn to read by the
time they were grown, and none who hate the sight, touch and smell of
books.

I said "thousands" above. It's very likely millions.

One of my unschooling mentors had a boy who was "behind"--
developmentally delayed in verbal ways (not physical). He's a marine
now, and no one who met him would EVER think "this kid was slow" or
"this guy doesn't read." No way. He's very verbal and literate, but
he wasn't verbal early.

He's a couple of years older than Kirby. When he was ten or so and
not reading, his mom said the coolest thing one day. She said she
figured if he could read a menu by the time he was old enough to go
on dates, that would be fine with her. By the time he was old enough
to go on dates, he was reading novels. But here's something his mom
wrote in 2001, when he was still a kid at home, and not a full-grown
U.S. Marine:

http://sandradodd.com/read/carol

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen

My daughter just turned seven. We've never done any formal "training to read" type of thing. When she was younger she loved to go to the library. This was great because I love books. I love libraries. I get a real rush walking into a library. Bookstores make me swoon. I loved going to the library with her and seeing what books she would pick.

For the past year so, Megan hasn't liked libraries. She doesn't like books. She has one or two that she loves (Knufflebunny comes to mind), but she isn't interested in exploring her world via books. She likes that I can look up information on the internet. She loves youtube and video games (Zoo Tycoon and similar). She explores her interest in animals by watching Animal Planet and other shows I find for her. She also does tons of pretend play (pretending she's a vet and pretending she's an animal and I'm the vet).

Today she asked me if all turtles like to swim. I told her I wasn't sure and we could look it up online or we could go to the library. She said she saw the library line coming from a mile away and she wasn't going to the library. :-) She also didn't want to go online. She was happy to talk about why turtles might like to swim and if we could think of a type of turtle that didn't. We didn't get very far. Her animal interests are largely big cats...so the turtle thing was new for us.

Can she read? When she wants to read, she does. We were at the zoo a few weeks ago and she read an entire informational plaque by herself for herself. If I had said "read this, prove to me you can read" she wouldn't have done it. If she had said "read this for me" I would have. Lately she has been experimenting with spelling. On her own. If I tried to "force" the issue, she'd stop. So I'm going along for the ride and it is way more interesting to let her lead.

Gwen

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, stephaniedenap <stephaniedenaples@...> wrote:
> My son has no interest in learning how to read (maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
> learn to read...

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "stephaniedenap"
<stephaniedenaples@...> wrote:
>How do
> Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
> when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things
(e.i.
> languages)?

As a former Montessorian, I'd say that its one of the most
misunderstood aspects of the theory. The big, important part
of "sensitive periods" is that the goal of the adult is to be
observant - to watch for times of sensitivity and then feed them. In
unschooling terms we say it this way: support your kids' passions.

For a 2yo that may mean a passion for running in circles and
knocking things over - in montessori terms that's a sensitive period
in terms of gross motor coordination and learning about the basic
physics of motion and states of matter. It doesn't mean trying to
explain to that child the need to slow down or clean up, it means
finding space to run and building endless towers to destroy.

My 14yo has gone through some "sensitive periods" recently - he's
exploded into writing and programming. Our challenge has been to
provide ways for him to do that where he can feel comfortable and
supported. Its not a time to correct his grammer and ask "but what's
it *for*?" Its time to feed the passions themselves.

Its always okay to offer - do you know about "strewing"? here's a
link: http://sandradodd.com/strewing

The important point to consider is that the goal of strewing is to
provide options and choices, not to find a way to sneak lessons on
magnets and paper-folding into kid's lives.


>My brother is a teacher and gave me a
> long lecture about 'scaffolding' and how children have ages when
they
> are sensitive to certain concepts and if the structure is not there
> from the start they will forever have learning difficulties.

The irony is, schools are the worst places for creating exactly
those kinds of learning difficulties. A free child, free to explore
and develop along his or her own exact timetable, will create his or
her own unique system of "scaffolding". Its inherent in how humans
learn. We build our own set of connections - are building them all
the time. We don't need to Give children someone else's scaffold -
if anything that disrupts the learning process and interfere's with
the child's own scaffolding.

> Where I begin to get nervous with unschooling is when I read of
> parents allowing their kids to watch TV all day.

I suspect you've never hung out with any unschooled kids who have
unlimited tv. It doesn't look the way you are afraid it will look.
Yes, some kids watch a lot more tv than others, but kids who are
used to free tv also do much much more conncurrently with watching.
They play and build and write and draw and paint and pretend. If
your kids' tv has been limited, they haven't had a chance to learn
these skills, yet. They're still "hoarding" and "binging" when
they "get" to watch tv, rather than using tv as one of the many
tools in their environment.

If I see my kids spending a Lot of time in front of the tv I ask
myself one question: what do they need? Sometimes we get in a rut
around here, especially with only one vehicle. So the kids need some
fun, some excitement in their lives. Something that's more
interesting than the tv. Changing seasons is a common time for that
to happen in my house.

But sometimes what the kids need is actually being met by the tv.
Really. Tv can be a wonderful source of information presented in a
visual format - very empowering for kids who don't read yet, or who
are more visual learners. Tv can also be a way for kids to explore
aspects of the world that aren't readily available to them -
currently my 7yo wants to go to Africa and China. That's not an
option for my family, but she can look at books and magazine and
watch shows and movies that help her learn more about those parts of
the world.

My 14yo is busy exploring Big Ideas - concepts of space and time and
morality and justice and his place in the universe. He doesn't find
books very accessible, so he uses the tv and the internet to find
out what other people have thought about similar Big Ideas.

> How do unschooled children differ from say, developing nations who
> have no opportunity/ resources for school? Are those children
> unschooled too or is it our communities resources and our parental
> attention that makes the difference?

There *are* places in the world where school is a better option than
home - some of those places are families (in developed nations, too)
where there is abuse or other misery in the home. Some of those
places are areas where there are few resources in the home to help
people learn to live and work in our technological world. When kids
can get what they need to thrive at home, outside education is
unneccesary. That's one of the fundaments of unschooling - we can
provide more and better than the schools, in more areas of life.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)

Kimberlee

Meredith,

Has Ray seen "Man from Earth"? Very interesting film. May challenge a
viewer's religious beliefs. Thought-provoking, but not action-packed.

Kimberlee


On 11-Sep-08, at 6:38 PM, Meredith wrote:

> My 14yo is busy exploring Big Ideas - concepts of space and time and
> morality and justice and his place in the universe. He doesn't find
> books very accessible, so he uses the tv and the internet to find
> out what other people have thought about similar Big Ideas.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

My son has no interest in learning how to read (maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
> learn to read...>>>>>>>>

when Courtney was younger I did the whole "let me teach you how to read" thing.
i put her on starfall.com , and played leapfrog videos, and got her worksheets , and worked on blending 3 letter words....and.....
She put up with me for about 2 long months.
Then wanted nothing to do with reading and insisted I just read it to her.. So I did .
Eventually she got interested in pretty journals and we bought several because she liked them . She would draw pictures and sometimes want me to write something and i did. She started playing games on game cube and the computer and Id read to her when asked and sometimes she would just figure it out.

Journals went to fewer pictures and more written words ( done by Courtney) and World of Warcraft became an intrest .

All of a sudden ( more like slowly over time but it seemed like all of a sudden ) she was reading chapter books to her little sister and brother.

Anyhow all that to say yes read to him whenever he asks not to try to help him learn to read but to make his world happy and sparkly.

Nicole



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~My son has no interest in learning how to read (maybe bruised by my
> prodding?) but would have me read to him all day? Does anyone have
> readers that have just learned it this way? I am worried he will never
> learn to read...>>>>>>>>~~

I don't have much time this morning but I just wanted to let you know
that children who are read to, will eventually read.

Jared (15) started reading at the age of 12, without any hang ups
about "early" or "late" reading. He's a wonderful advocate for
trusting your child in regards to learning and he'll tell you all
about how he wasn't taught to read but that he learned anyway.:)

YOu can't tell him apart from a child that learned to read at the age
of four or six or any other age. Kind of like when we all learned to
walk. You can't tell later. So what does it matter? It doesn't.

Ren

hbmccarty

>How do
> Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
> when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
> languages)?



This reminds me of a discussion I had a while ago with a Waldorf teacher
and parent who had told me that certain neural pathways will close at
certain ages, therefore it is important that children be taught to for
instance "skip count"or multiplying before a certain age. At that point
I investigated- this is the best link I found:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf

"Brain research provides important neuroscientific evidence to support
the broad aim of lifelong
learning: Far from supporting ageist notions that education is the
province only of the young
– the powerful learning capacity of young people notwithstanding –
neuroscience confirms
that learning is a lifelong activity and that the more it continues the
more effective it is.

Heather (in NY)

k

Wow. Thanks Heather. I already knew that but my knowing it and someone
corroborating it are two different things. :)

~Katherine


On 9/12/08, hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
>
> >How do
> > Unschoolers feel about the Montessori theory of 'sensitive' periods
> > when the developing brain is most able to learn certain things (e.i.
> > languages)?
>
>
>
>
> This reminds me of a discussion I had a while ago with a Waldorf teacher
> and parent who had told me that certain neural pathways will close at
> certain ages, therefore it is important that children be taught to for
> instance "skip count"or multiplying before a certain age. At that point
> I investigated- this is the best link I found:
>
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf
>
> "Brain research provides important neuroscientific evidence to support
> the broad aim of lifelong
> learning: Far from supporting ageist notions that education is the
> province only of the young
> � the powerful learning capacity of young people notwithstanding �
> neuroscience confirms
> that learning is a lifelong activity and that the more it continues the
> more effective it is.
>
> Heather (in NY)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Suzanne Stritzler

I've never posted before but my daughter's experience really speaks
to this question. I've always read to her as much as she wanted,
often until my lips were numb. We also listen to many, many recorded
books, often repeatedly. She appeared to be ready to read at 4. At
6 I started bugging her with worksheets and reading programs, until
she wouldn't look at them anymore and I finally stopped. It drove me
crazy! She started reading more at 9, and really became fluent at
10. Just this summer, at 11, it really caught fire for her. Her
current goal is to finish "The Hobbit" and read the "Lord of the
Rings" series in the next few months (she already knows the stories
well). She also decided to go to school this year (6th grade).
Just last night she was expressing surprise at the vocabulary that
the other kids don't know. She has a very sophisticated grasp of
language, literature, history, many things mostly from being read
to. (She didn't do well on an assessment of reading aloud, so she's
practicing; I can't fathom why they assess for that!).

I just had some work to take care of on the computer, so my 7 year
old went and found a stack of Berenstain Bear books and is busy
reading them while I write. He also listens to recorded books, and I
just finished reading him "The Wee Free Men" by Terry Pratchit--a
"young adult" novel (hilarious, by the way).

Keep reading to your kids, and have faith!

Suzanne

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Suzanne Stritzler
<suz@...> wrote:
>She appeared to be ready to read at 4. At
> 6 I started bugging her with worksheets and reading programs,
until
> she wouldn't look at them anymore and I finally stopped. It drove
me
> crazy! She started reading more at 9, and really became fluent
at
> 10. Just this summer, at 11, it really caught fire for her.

I don't remember if this has been brought up or not, but its really
normal for any kind of learning to happen in "waves" - learn a
little and put it aside for awhile. I've see both my kids do that in
soooooo many different ways. It can kind of "fake you out" if you
aren't aware that this is really one of the natural ways people
learn things. *Sometimes* people get all fired up and learn things
all at once in a blinding flash, but very often its more like
watching the tide come in, wave by wave.

My 7yo reads sometimes, when she wants to. Mostly she's interested
in reading as a tool, not for fun, and she *hates* reading aloud and
rarely enjoys being read to. One of the interesting things about her
reading is that she doesn't remember the names of most of the
letters - she knew them once upon a time, but since that information
has little to do with reading, she's forgotten it. It comes up when
she wants to know how to spell something and says "what does that
letter look like, again?"

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)