Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
gilliangoddard
Anyone has a child on the Radical Unschooler's Network - familyrun? My 3 1/2 year old
daughter wants some children as friends and we can't figure out easily which are children.
Please let me know and we will add you as friends.
Thanks
Gillian
daughter wants some children as friends and we can't figure out easily which are children.
Please let me know and we will add you as friends.
Thanks
Gillian
k
I think most of the kids are a little older. Karl is not on there but then
again I haven't mentioned it. He might enjoy it. I think there's a kids
subgroup within RUN. There's also plenty of kids all over RUN. It's pretty
kid friendly if you've been on there, you'll see.
~Katherine
again I haven't mentioned it. He might enjoy it. I think there's a kids
subgroup within RUN. There's also plenty of kids all over RUN. It's pretty
kid friendly if you've been on there, you'll see.
~Katherine
On 8/14/08, gilliangoddard <gilliangoddard@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone has a child on the Radical Unschooler's Network - familyrun? My 3
> 1/2 year old
> daughter wants some children as friends and we can't figure out easily
> which are children.
> Please let me know and we will add you as friends.
> Thanks
> Gillian
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
Hi Gillian, I am a member, but my girls aren't yet. They are 3 1/2 as well. Can they be members on their own? Is that what you mean?
Jodi
Jodi
--- On Thu, 8/14/08, gilliangoddard <gilliangoddard@...> wrote:
From: gilliangoddard <gilliangoddard@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 6:44 AM
Anyone has a child on the Radical Unschooler's Network - familyrun? My 3 1/2 year old
daughter wants some children as friends and we can't figure out easily which are children.
Please let me know and we will add you as friends.
Thanks
Gillian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Anyone has a child on the Radical Unschooler's Network - familyrun?
My 31/2 year old daughter wants some children as friends and we can't
figure out easily which are children.~~
Well...that depends on her definition of "children".;)
There's a group titled "RU Youth" on there that she could join, or add
people to her friends list:
http://familyrun.ning.com/group/ruyouth
Sierra is the only one of my kids that enjoys this kind of thing so
far. In fact, I keep posting stuff under her name accidentally because
I forget to check which one of us is logged in!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
My 31/2 year old daughter wants some children as friends and we can't
figure out easily which are children.~~
Well...that depends on her definition of "children".;)
There's a group titled "RU Youth" on there that she could join, or add
people to her friends list:
http://familyrun.ning.com/group/ruyouth
Sierra is the only one of my kids that enjoys this kind of thing so
far. In fact, I keep posting stuff under her name accidentally because
I forget to check which one of us is logged in!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Jill Parmer
On Aug 14, 2008, at 11:45 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
"children"!
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Sierra is the only one of my kids that enjoys this kind of thing soHeh, I was confused for a moment why Sierra was talking about her
> far. In fact, I keep posting stuff under her name accidentally because
> I forget to check which one of us is logged in!
"children"!
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gilliangoddard
Hi Jodi,
Yes, they can be members on their own. I did have to use a different email address for
each child and for myself. My children don't have email addresses yet.
GG
Yes, they can be members on their own. I did have to use a different email address for
each child and for myself. My children don't have email addresses yet.
GG
--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gillian, I am a member, but my girls aren't yet. They are 3 1/2 as well. Can they be
members on their own? Is that what you mean?
>
> Jodi
>
> --- On Thu, 8/14/08, gilliangoddard <gilliangoddard@...> wrote:
>
> From: gilliangoddard <gilliangoddard@...>
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 6:44 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyone has a child on the Radical Unschooler's Network - familyrun? My 3 1/2 year old
> daughter wants some children as friends and we can't figure out easily which are
children.
> Please let me know and we will add you as friends.
> Thanks
> Gillian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
gilliangoddard
Hey Ren,
Efua is now friends with almost every child on the Youth Network - including Sierra - but I
should have been more specific. She is looking for children in general but she specifically
wants more children around her age. Kwamena is a lot less interested in the whole thing.
I did notice that Sierra seems to send these long and detailed responses to the forums -
until I read them and they clearly were from you! Pretty funny.
And Efua is enjoying communicating with you on the network. Hopefully one day we can
meet in person.
Gillian
Efua is now friends with almost every child on the Youth Network - including Sierra - but I
should have been more specific. She is looking for children in general but she specifically
wants more children around her age. Kwamena is a lot less interested in the whole thing.
I did notice that Sierra seems to send these long and detailed responses to the forums -
until I read them and they clearly were from you! Pretty funny.
And Efua is enjoying communicating with you on the network. Hopefully one day we can
meet in person.
Gillian
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~Anyone has a child on the Radical Unschooler's Network - familyrun?
> My 31/2 year old daughter wants some children as friends and we can't
> figure out easily which are children.~~
>
> Well...that depends on her definition of "children".;)
> There's a group titled "RU Youth" on there that she could join, or add
> people to her friends list:
> http://familyrun.ning.com/group/ruyouth
>
> Sierra is the only one of my kids that enjoys this kind of thing so
> far. In fact, I keep posting stuff under her name accidentally because
> I forget to check which one of us is logged in!
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
Alison Broadbent
Asher and I tried to sign him up but there's a minimum age of 13.
Does anyone know if there a way around that?
Thanks.
Alison
Does anyone know if there a way around that?
Thanks.
Alison
Faith Void
you can just put in another birth year. that' swhat we did for my 11dd
Faith
Faith
On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Alison Broadbent <abzb@...>wrote:
> Asher and I tried to sign him up but there's a minimum age of 13.
> Does anyone know if there a way around that?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Alison
>
>
--
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], Alison Broadbent <abzb@...>
wrote:
choose to ignore. I don't feel the internet police get to decide what
my children get to utilize.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
wrote:
>Yeah, change his birthdate.:) It's a built in safety feature that we
> Asher and I tried to sign him up but there's a minimum age of 13.
> Does anyone know if there a way around that?
>
choose to ignore. I don't feel the internet police get to decide what
my children get to utilize.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Paul Beaulieu
Ren,
On this topic, since it is an obviously innocuous(sp?) issue (the use of the rad. Unsch. network.prior to age thirteen that is). i bring a question that is really (to me) the root of this discussion. how about the state you live in's registry of motor vehicles, or the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, how about the state legislature or even the congress of the united states of america. at what point does the principal of law actually matter? i understand that rules in and of themselves particualarly within the home and family are not tools to be aspired to but in a grander scope i.e. society it is the very existance of some sense of rules that make the choices we make possible. when we allow and even encourage the breaking of someone else's rules to govern themselves what are we modeling? the radical unschoolers network for example has an age limit for some reason(i cant see why but...) and it is their right to do as it our right to self determine. i just wanted
to toss out a question as to when does a respect for the law become an issue that we should model a lifestyle that shows that laws need to be followed and that when we disrespect the boundaries set by others for themselves we ask that ours be violated. it is the very truth of our own self determination that points out the act of violating someone elses right to determination as unacceptable. would in a situation such as this be more prudent to show our kids how to reach out to an organization to possibly get them to re-evaluate their rules while maybe allowing them to use our log in or using the site together.
just a thought.
Paul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On this topic, since it is an obviously innocuous(sp?) issue (the use of the rad. Unsch. network.prior to age thirteen that is). i bring a question that is really (to me) the root of this discussion. how about the state you live in's registry of motor vehicles, or the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, how about the state legislature or even the congress of the united states of america. at what point does the principal of law actually matter? i understand that rules in and of themselves particualarly within the home and family are not tools to be aspired to but in a grander scope i.e. society it is the very existance of some sense of rules that make the choices we make possible. when we allow and even encourage the breaking of someone else's rules to govern themselves what are we modeling? the radical unschoolers network for example has an age limit for some reason(i cant see why but...) and it is their right to do as it our right to self determine. i just wanted
to toss out a question as to when does a respect for the law become an issue that we should model a lifestyle that shows that laws need to be followed and that when we disrespect the boundaries set by others for themselves we ask that ours be violated. it is the very truth of our own self determination that points out the act of violating someone elses right to determination as unacceptable. would in a situation such as this be more prudent to show our kids how to reach out to an organization to possibly get them to re-evaluate their rules while maybe allowing them to use our log in or using the site together.
just a thought.
Paul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~how about the state you live in's registry of motor vehicles, or the
bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, how about the state
legislature or even the congress of the united states of america. at
what point does the principal of law actually matter?~~
Ignoring an arbitrary age limit is very different from ignoring the
LAW. There are no laws about joining an internet community, just
biased rules about it. Mostly because of liability concerns for the
people running the servers, not because it truly keeps anyone safe.
~~when we allow and even encourage the breaking of someone else's
rules to govern themselves what are we modeling? ~~
The ability to think. What it means to be truly American even!;) If
following the rules was more important to the founding fathers and
mothers of my country, then this country wouldn't even exist. They
committed treason for crying out loud. How's that for ignoring the rules?
~~the radical unschoolers network for example has an age limit for
some reason(i cant see why but...) and it is their right to do as it
our right to self determine. ~~
It has nothing to do with anyone self-determining anything. One of my
best friend's started the network and she is working within the
limitations of existing server space. The Ning network has their
parameters set up to only allow over 13 so if you want to start a
network that is not age discriminatory, you have to ask people to
fudge their birthdates. No big deal.
We're talking about an internet community for people to communicate
with. NOT asking anyone to break the law and face penalties or fines
or worse. Nor is it affecting anyone else, their life, their choices
or creating harm in any manner. THAT is part of how we assess whether
a rule or law is worth ignoring.
~~to toss out a question as to when does a respect for the law become
an issue that we should model a lifestyle that shows that laws need to
be followed and that when we disrespect the boundaries set by others
for themselves we ask that ours be violated.~~
Respect for the law should only exist if it actually makes sense or is
the choice that has consequences you are willing to live with. Many
laws violate my personal liberties, such as tax laws because the taxes
in this country were meant to be VOLUNTARY only and were never meant
to become what they are today.
Though the constituation originally states that taxes are to be
voluntary (until the 16th amendment was passed) and what has happened
today violates that principle, I still choose to pay my taxes though I
am ethically opposed. I choose to pay them because the fight isn't
worth it. The consequences aren't worth it to me right now. So I
choose to comply. I'm not against any form of taxes, but I am opposed
to the current form they take and the power the government has.
My children are intelligent enough to figure out which laws they will
or won't comply with and be responsible enough to face consequences of
their actions.
~~it is the very truth of our own self determination that points out
the act of violating someone elses right to determination as
unacceptable.~~
I would love to hear how fudging a birth date in order to join a
social network violates any else's right to self-determination.
You seem to be using the "slippery slope" theory here. If you
encourage kids to lie about one thing, they'll learn poor ethical
judgmentand immorality.
I couldn't disagree more.
When a person exercises their free will, they can actually make
choices that help them look at a situation from many angles. I helped
my children lie about their age to join a network. Is that encouraging
lying? I think not. It's encouraging thinking. It's encouraging them
to have the ability to determine a useful lie from a hurtful one.
People like to pretend that lying is bad. Everyone lies. Show me
someone that says they don't and I'll find a situation they were happy
to lie about. People lie about liking a hairstyle they don't care for
in order to avoid hurt feelings. They lie to assist each other in
planning surprise parties or gifts for each other. Lying isn't all
bad. Intent is more important to me.
But you're talking to someone that is somewhere between libertarian
and anarchist. I think in this society, people are so rule/law driven
that they can't think clearly anymore. Give me clear-thinking people
over law abiding people any day. They'll figure out the right thing to
do much faster and more effectively.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, how about the state
legislature or even the congress of the united states of america. at
what point does the principal of law actually matter?~~
Ignoring an arbitrary age limit is very different from ignoring the
LAW. There are no laws about joining an internet community, just
biased rules about it. Mostly because of liability concerns for the
people running the servers, not because it truly keeps anyone safe.
~~when we allow and even encourage the breaking of someone else's
rules to govern themselves what are we modeling? ~~
The ability to think. What it means to be truly American even!;) If
following the rules was more important to the founding fathers and
mothers of my country, then this country wouldn't even exist. They
committed treason for crying out loud. How's that for ignoring the rules?
~~the radical unschoolers network for example has an age limit for
some reason(i cant see why but...) and it is their right to do as it
our right to self determine. ~~
It has nothing to do with anyone self-determining anything. One of my
best friend's started the network and she is working within the
limitations of existing server space. The Ning network has their
parameters set up to only allow over 13 so if you want to start a
network that is not age discriminatory, you have to ask people to
fudge their birthdates. No big deal.
We're talking about an internet community for people to communicate
with. NOT asking anyone to break the law and face penalties or fines
or worse. Nor is it affecting anyone else, their life, their choices
or creating harm in any manner. THAT is part of how we assess whether
a rule or law is worth ignoring.
~~to toss out a question as to when does a respect for the law become
an issue that we should model a lifestyle that shows that laws need to
be followed and that when we disrespect the boundaries set by others
for themselves we ask that ours be violated.~~
Respect for the law should only exist if it actually makes sense or is
the choice that has consequences you are willing to live with. Many
laws violate my personal liberties, such as tax laws because the taxes
in this country were meant to be VOLUNTARY only and were never meant
to become what they are today.
Though the constituation originally states that taxes are to be
voluntary (until the 16th amendment was passed) and what has happened
today violates that principle, I still choose to pay my taxes though I
am ethically opposed. I choose to pay them because the fight isn't
worth it. The consequences aren't worth it to me right now. So I
choose to comply. I'm not against any form of taxes, but I am opposed
to the current form they take and the power the government has.
My children are intelligent enough to figure out which laws they will
or won't comply with and be responsible enough to face consequences of
their actions.
~~it is the very truth of our own self determination that points out
the act of violating someone elses right to determination as
unacceptable.~~
I would love to hear how fudging a birth date in order to join a
social network violates any else's right to self-determination.
You seem to be using the "slippery slope" theory here. If you
encourage kids to lie about one thing, they'll learn poor ethical
judgmentand immorality.
I couldn't disagree more.
When a person exercises their free will, they can actually make
choices that help them look at a situation from many angles. I helped
my children lie about their age to join a network. Is that encouraging
lying? I think not. It's encouraging thinking. It's encouraging them
to have the ability to determine a useful lie from a hurtful one.
People like to pretend that lying is bad. Everyone lies. Show me
someone that says they don't and I'll find a situation they were happy
to lie about. People lie about liking a hairstyle they don't care for
in order to avoid hurt feelings. They lie to assist each other in
planning surprise parties or gifts for each other. Lying isn't all
bad. Intent is more important to me.
But you're talking to someone that is somewhere between libertarian
and anarchist. I think in this society, people are so rule/law driven
that they can't think clearly anymore. Give me clear-thinking people
over law abiding people any day. They'll figure out the right thing to
do much faster and more effectively.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Paul H. Beaulieu II
well, with regard to the R. U. N. as i pointed out in my post i know
that the surface issue was a little of a stretch but i want to get to
the deeper issue. you may personally know the people who started this
site but that will not always be the case. lets use an arbitrary
site for example, it is in fact their site(who ever created and runs
it) and if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
belongs to. does that model respect. this is my point. i dont say all
lying is evil. read my post that wasnt my point. i know that to make
a similar point about how rules are bad or how labels are wrong the
same logic has been applied. the logic that as parents we model
behaviors of respect or not and that is what our children get a firm
grasp on. lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
people following their own critical thought as that would lead to
complete oligarchy which by the way would eb the natural end result
of anarchy. so be careful what you wish for as once we achieve
anarchy, it will be the strong and the forceful that rule, not the
wise or the intelligent. as china and russia were quick to teach us
the educated are easily eradicated by the strong. i didnt mean for
this to get so big i just think that an address with regard to
societal respect not just personal respect is important too.
if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
id to get into bars or why not just buy coke since i am a smart and
critical thinking person arent they all the same thing? a series of
rules put in place arbitrarily to in some way control the populace,
and as i may or may not choose to risk the ramifications of said
choices. i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
that wasnt about following rules to avoid punishment or to be
rewarded but to respect those around us and ourselves in a way that
allows us to just live and have our very life shine through with a
manner that by its very essence does not impeach anothers right at
self regulation.
just some thoughts
paul
thanks again ren for your insight
that the surface issue was a little of a stretch but i want to get to
the deeper issue. you may personally know the people who started this
site but that will not always be the case. lets use an arbitrary
site for example, it is in fact their site(who ever created and runs
it) and if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
belongs to. does that model respect. this is my point. i dont say all
lying is evil. read my post that wasnt my point. i know that to make
a similar point about how rules are bad or how labels are wrong the
same logic has been applied. the logic that as parents we model
behaviors of respect or not and that is what our children get a firm
grasp on. lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
people following their own critical thought as that would lead to
complete oligarchy which by the way would eb the natural end result
of anarchy. so be careful what you wish for as once we achieve
anarchy, it will be the strong and the forceful that rule, not the
wise or the intelligent. as china and russia were quick to teach us
the educated are easily eradicated by the strong. i didnt mean for
this to get so big i just think that an address with regard to
societal respect not just personal respect is important too.
if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
id to get into bars or why not just buy coke since i am a smart and
critical thinking person arent they all the same thing? a series of
rules put in place arbitrarily to in some way control the populace,
and as i may or may not choose to risk the ramifications of said
choices. i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
that wasnt about following rules to avoid punishment or to be
rewarded but to respect those around us and ourselves in a way that
allows us to just live and have our very life shine through with a
manner that by its very essence does not impeach anothers right at
self regulation.
just some thoughts
paul
thanks again ren for your insight
k
It isn't the Radical Unschoolers' Network that has set an age limit on the
site but the network service Ning.com.
Making sure that's understood before going any further.
~Katherine
site but the network service Ning.com.
Making sure that's understood before going any further.
~Katherine
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Paul Beaulieu <ballou12400@...>wrote:
> Ren,
>
> On this topic, since it is an obviously innocuous(sp?) issue (the use of
> the rad. Unsch. network.prior to age thirteen that is). i bring a question
> that is really (to me) the root of this discussion. how about the state you
> live in's registry of motor vehicles, or the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and
> firearms, how about the state legislature or even the congress of the united
> states of america. at what point does the principal of law actually matter?
> i understand that rules in and of themselves particualarly within the home
> and family are not tools to be aspired to but in a grander scope i.e.
> society it is the very existance of some sense of rules that make the
> choices we make possible. when we allow and even encourage the breaking of
> someone else's rules to govern themselves what are we modeling? the radical
> unschoolers network for example has an age limit for some reason(i cant see
> why but...) and it is their right to do as it our right to self determine. i
> just wanted
> to toss out a question as to when does a respect for the law become an
> issue that we should model a lifestyle that shows that laws need to be
> followed and that when we disrespect the boundaries set by others for
> themselves we ask that ours be violated. it is the very truth of our own
> self determination that points out the act of violating someone elses right
> to determination as unacceptable. would in a situation such as this be more
> prudent to show our kids how to reach out to an organization to possibly get
> them to re-evaluate their rules while maybe allowing them to use our log in
> or using the site together.
>
>
> just a thought.
> Paul
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
belongs to. does that model respect.~~
Are you more concerned about respecting an arbitrary age rule, set up
to protect a network from liability issues or respecting your child's
desire to connect with friends? That's where you and I differ (amongst
many other things). I choose to respect my child more than some
arbitrary rule. Doesn't mean we ignore all rules. We can logically
analyze whether there is a good reason for something and whether it is
a useful rule.
The age of thirteen isn't some magical age that indicates a child's
ability to properly utilize an online community.
~~lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
laws prevent anything. Maybe to a small degree. But mostly it just
gives the law makers the ability to punish people. Laws exist to allow
punishment for not following the law. They don't exist to prevent
anything (thought the makers seem to think they do).
More laws don't equal less problems.
~~if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
shows a lack of critical thinking. It's faulty logic.
As for fake ID, my parents didn't drink or allow any alcohol in our
home. They certainly never lied about our ages. I borrowed a fake ID
at age 18 and went bar hopping. Actually, I'd been bar hopping before
and never got carded! The night I borrowed the fake ID I met my
husband of 19 years.:) Funny how things can work out eh?
I'm not advocating "ignore all rules" but I'm also baffled when people
say that by ignoring an age rule it somehow equates to any and all age
fudging as being equal. It's not.
~~ i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
unschoolers who have enriched our lives immensely, we in NO way are
impeaching upon any one else's right at self regulation. Not at all.
Maybe you should go read at the site itself and see how the children
are sharing their art,their dreams, their birthdays, their joys and
concerns, their lives with each other. It's a beautiful thing and I'm
glad for parents that are giving their child access to such rich
connections! Without ever causing infringement upon any other human
being or their rights. Cool huh?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
belongs to. does that model respect.~~
Are you more concerned about respecting an arbitrary age rule, set up
to protect a network from liability issues or respecting your child's
desire to connect with friends? That's where you and I differ (amongst
many other things). I choose to respect my child more than some
arbitrary rule. Doesn't mean we ignore all rules. We can logically
analyze whether there is a good reason for something and whether it is
a useful rule.
The age of thirteen isn't some magical age that indicates a child's
ability to properly utilize an online community.
~~lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
> people following their own critical thought as that would lead toI guess that's another point we differ on. I don't think rules and
> complete oligarchy which by the way would eb the natural end result
> of anarchy.~~
laws prevent anything. Maybe to a small degree. But mostly it just
gives the law makers the ability to punish people. Laws exist to allow
punishment for not following the law. They don't exist to prevent
anything (thought the makers seem to think they do).
More laws don't equal less problems.
~~if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
> id to get into bars or why not just buy coke since i am a smart andIf you think that any and all lying about age is the same thing, that
> critical thinking person arent they all the same thing?~~
shows a lack of critical thinking. It's faulty logic.
As for fake ID, my parents didn't drink or allow any alcohol in our
home. They certainly never lied about our ages. I borrowed a fake ID
at age 18 and went bar hopping. Actually, I'd been bar hopping before
and never got carded! The night I borrowed the fake ID I met my
husband of 19 years.:) Funny how things can work out eh?
I'm not advocating "ignore all rules" but I'm also baffled when people
say that by ignoring an age rule it somehow equates to any and all age
fudging as being equal. It's not.
~~ i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
> that wasnt about following rules to avoid punishment or to beAnd by choosing to fudge a birth date to join a lively group of
> rewarded but to respect those around us and ourselves in a way that
> allows us to just live and have our very life shine through with a
> manner that by its very essence does not impeach anothers right at
> self regulation.~~
unschoolers who have enriched our lives immensely, we in NO way are
impeaching upon any one else's right at self regulation. Not at all.
Maybe you should go read at the site itself and see how the children
are sharing their art,their dreams, their birthdays, their joys and
concerns, their lives with each other. It's a beautiful thing and I'm
glad for parents that are giving their child access to such rich
connections! Without ever causing infringement upon any other human
being or their rights. Cool huh?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
k
People actually *do* break laws. Many people are in prison for that
reason. Do you think having rules prevents people from breaking them?
~Katherine
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...
reason. Do you think having rules prevents people from breaking them?
~Katherine
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> well, with regard to the R. U. N. as i pointed out in my post i know
> that the surface issue was a little of a stretch but i want to get to
> the deeper issue. you may personally know the people who started this
> site but that will not always be the case. lets use an arbitrary
> site for example, it is in fact their site(who ever created and runs
> it) and if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
> use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
> violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
> belongs to. does that model respect. this is my point. i dont say all
> lying is evil. read my post that wasnt my point. i know that to make
> a similar point about how rules are bad or how labels are wrong the
> same logic has been applied. the logic that as parents we model
> behaviors of respect or not and that is what our children get a firm
> grasp on. lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
> people following their own critical thought as that would lead to
> complete oligarchy which by the way would eb the natural end result
> of anarchy. so be careful what you wish for as once we achieve
> anarchy, it will be the strong and the forceful that rule, not the
> wise or the intelligent. as china and russia were quick to teach us
> the educated are easily eradicated by the strong. i didnt mean for
> this to get so big i just think that an address with regard to
> societal respect not just personal respect is important too.
> if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
> id to get into bars or why not just buy coke since i am a smart and
> critical thinking person arent they all the same thing? a series of
> rules put in place arbitrarily to in some way control the populace,
> and as i may or may not choose to risk the ramifications of said
> choices. i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
> that wasnt about following rules to avoid punishment or to be
> rewarded but to respect those around us and ourselves in a way that
> allows us to just live and have our very life shine through with a
> manner that by its very essence does not impeach anothers right at
> self regulation.
>
> just some thoughts
>
> paul
>
> thanks again ren for your insight
>
>
>
Paul H. Beaulieu II
Thanks katherine and yes i did get that and i dont actually have a real
problem with some of the work arounds in this case however i wanted to
use this as an opportunity to discuss some of the more borderline
functions of judgement and modeling respect and responsibility.
i dont want you to think that i believe the RUN age thing is the issue
i was trying to discuss.
I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are useless
within a small community such as a home or family they are without a
doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary tool for a
society. look at any area that has seen a time without any government.
chaos results and death and disaster follow.
PB
p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
problem with some of the work arounds in this case however i wanted to
use this as an opportunity to discuss some of the more borderline
functions of judgement and modeling respect and responsibility.
i dont want you to think that i believe the RUN age thing is the issue
i was trying to discuss.
I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are useless
within a small community such as a home or family they are without a
doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary tool for a
society. look at any area that has seen a time without any government.
chaos results and death and disaster follow.
PB
p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
Ren Allen
~~where have all the dad's gone on this list?
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.~~
Survival of the fittest (or in this case, the most intelligent).;)
Bwahhahahahahahahaaa!!
Ren
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.~~
Survival of the fittest (or in this case, the most intelligent).;)
Bwahhahahahahahahaaa!!
Ren
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 18, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II wrote:
entitled to break rules but no one has suggested doing that. The
questions people should ask are: Why does the rule exist? Who will it
hurt if I break it? What will happen to me if I'm caught?
Those aren't casually asked questions. It's how a thinking person
should approach rules.
Why does an age limit exist on the site? (The RUN site. Any site.) Is
it because of the law against collecting information from minors? Is
it a way of suggesting the content is might be too mature for those
under 13? How is it harming the person who set up the site?
something that has confused people, it's an opportunity to rethink
how you communicate.
Carriage returns would help. Periods and capitalization would help.
help. Rules just say, for instance, "Don't hit." They don't say
"Don't bite." "Don't poke." "Don't tease." ...
But if the philosophy is to be kind and respectful, we don't need to
spell out everything that's not kind and not respectful. Putting the
philosophy of being kind and respectful into action in a variety of
contexts helps kids think about what it means to kind and respectful
and why.
generous. Some people are raised to grasp what they can. Different
families have different ideas about what is "fair". There are parents
who would take their little kids to NC-17 movies because it's too
inconvenient to get a baby sitter. There are parents who would leave
their kids locked up in the car while they went into a bar.
It could be the person who set it up. It could be the people who
participate. It could be the people who don't get to participate.
All that matters to someone who lives life by philosophy rather than
rules.
restrictions as though they're the same. Why do the age restrictions
exist? What's their purpose? What are the consequences of breaking them?
though it's a fact.
That's not a question meant to point out that the RUN site is an
exception. That and the above questions are at the heart of acting
and thinking critically.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> lets use an arbitraryIt seems you want to discuss whether it's right for people to feel
> site for example, it is in fact their site(who ever created and runs
> it) and if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
> use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
> violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
> belongs to.
entitled to break rules but no one has suggested doing that. The
questions people should ask are: Why does the rule exist? Who will it
hurt if I break it? What will happen to me if I'm caught?
Those aren't casually asked questions. It's how a thinking person
should approach rules.
Why does an age limit exist on the site? (The RUN site. Any site.) Is
it because of the law against collecting information from minors? Is
it a way of suggesting the content is might be too mature for those
under 13? How is it harming the person who set up the site?
> read my post that wasnt my point.Please don't ask people to reread to get your point. If you've said
something that has confused people, it's an opportunity to rethink
how you communicate.
Carriage returns would help. Periods and capitalization would help.
> i know that to makeIn a home where we're raising kids to think, rules for behavior don't
> a similar point about how rules are bad or how labels are wrong the
> same logic has been applied.
help. Rules just say, for instance, "Don't hit." They don't say
"Don't bite." "Don't poke." "Don't tease." ...
But if the philosophy is to be kind and respectful, we don't need to
spell out everything that's not kind and not respectful. Putting the
philosophy of being kind and respectful into action in a variety of
contexts helps kids think about what it means to kind and respectful
and why.
> lets face it in a society we do need some rules not justI think we do need rules in society since we're not all raised to be
> people following their own critical thought as that would lead to
> complete oligarchy which by the way would eb the natural end result
> of anarchy.
generous. Some people are raised to grasp what they can. Different
families have different ideas about what is "fair". There are parents
who would take their little kids to NC-17 movies because it's too
inconvenient to get a baby sitter. There are parents who would leave
their kids locked up in the car while they went into a bar.
> i just think that an address with regard toBut you're being vague about who is being disrespected.
> societal respect not just personal respect is important too.
It could be the person who set it up. It could be the people who
participate. It could be the people who don't get to participate.
All that matters to someone who lives life by philosophy rather than
rules.
> if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fakeThis shows a lack of critical thinking by treating all age
> id to get into bars or why not just buy coke since i am a smart and
> critical thinking person arent they all the same thing?
restrictions as though they're the same. Why do the age restrictions
exist? What's their purpose? What are the consequences of breaking them?
> i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior*Whose* rights are being impeached on? You're just stating it as
> that wasnt about following rules to avoid punishment or to be
> rewarded but to respect those around us and ourselves in a way that
> allows us to just live and have our very life shine through with a
> manner that by its very essence does not impeach anothers right at
> self regulation.
though it's a fact.
That's not a question meant to point out that the RUN site is an
exception. That and the above questions are at the heart of acting
and thinking critically.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Here's someplace else to read answers for questions to unschoolers about
rules:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rules:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
Yet we have a history of many times when someone (or some group)
*chose* to break a law/rule because that law/rule was flawed. Should
they have not broken the law because it was the law? Laws/Rules are
made for a reason. Sometimes the reasoning is flawed. That's why
there are mechanisms in place to change them (most of the time). As
was already mentioned a couple of times, what I seek to impart to my
offspring is not "follow all rules/laws" but rather "Examine the
rules/laws. Why was it made? Who is it intended to help or protect?
What are the consequences of not following that rule/law? Is it a
flawed rule/law that needs to be changed? Are you willing to face the
consequences in order to be an agent of change?" and so on. No rules
or laws of our society are so sacred that they cannot and should not
be critically examined. Sure, I can agree that murder is right out
and there needs to be an appropriately severe consequence to it.
Driving under the influence of mental function altering substances is
dangerous to many, invoking consequences to perhaps, for some, cause
them to think twice before engaging in such behavior, makes sense.
Creating a law that says that my 18 yr old son (when he gets to 18
that is, he's only 10 now) MUST register for a potential military
draft and possibly go into battle - that one requires thought - what
are the options for NOT fighting? is it worth the consequences to NOT
register? should it be changed in some way to allow more options?
Heck, go back 25 years and HOMESCHOOLING was illegal and
people 'fudged' things, went underground, faced jail time, and now we
have an abundance of homeschooling options anywhere you go in this
country. Should those parents NOT have 'fudged' things to retain
custody of their children while they worked to change the laws?
--Deb
*chose* to break a law/rule because that law/rule was flawed. Should
they have not broken the law because it was the law? Laws/Rules are
made for a reason. Sometimes the reasoning is flawed. That's why
there are mechanisms in place to change them (most of the time). As
was already mentioned a couple of times, what I seek to impart to my
offspring is not "follow all rules/laws" but rather "Examine the
rules/laws. Why was it made? Who is it intended to help or protect?
What are the consequences of not following that rule/law? Is it a
flawed rule/law that needs to be changed? Are you willing to face the
consequences in order to be an agent of change?" and so on. No rules
or laws of our society are so sacred that they cannot and should not
be critically examined. Sure, I can agree that murder is right out
and there needs to be an appropriately severe consequence to it.
Driving under the influence of mental function altering substances is
dangerous to many, invoking consequences to perhaps, for some, cause
them to think twice before engaging in such behavior, makes sense.
Creating a law that says that my 18 yr old son (when he gets to 18
that is, he's only 10 now) MUST register for a potential military
draft and possibly go into battle - that one requires thought - what
are the options for NOT fighting? is it worth the consequences to NOT
register? should it be changed in some way to allow more options?
Heck, go back 25 years and HOMESCHOOLING was illegal and
people 'fudged' things, went underground, faced jail time, and now we
have an abundance of homeschooling options anywhere you go in this
country. Should those parents NOT have 'fudged' things to retain
custody of their children while they worked to change the laws?
--Deb
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If you are refering to me its actually Alex, Brian"s wife, that writes pots here<bwg>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:53:42 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
Thanks katherine and yes i did get that and i dont actually have a real
problem with some of the work arounds in this case however i wanted to
use this as an opportunity to discuss some of the more borderline
functions of judgement and modeling respect and responsibility.
i dont want you to think that i believe the RUN age thing is the issue
i was trying to discuss.
I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are useless
within a small community such as a home or family they are without a
doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary tool for a
society. look at any area that has seen a time without any government.
chaos results and death and disaster follow.
PB
p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If you are refering to me its actually Alex, Brian"s wife, that writes pots here<bwg>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:53:42 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
Thanks katherine and yes i did get that and i dont actually have a real
problem with some of the work arounds in this case however i wanted to
use this as an opportunity to discuss some of the more borderline
functions of judgement and modeling respect and responsibility.
i dont want you to think that i believe the RUN age thing is the issue
i was trying to discuss.
I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are useless
within a small community such as a home or family they are without a
doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary tool for a
society. look at any area that has seen a time without any government.
chaos results and death and disaster follow.
PB
p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
You write pots here. ;) Heehee. (pots= lots of posts)
~Katherine
~Katherine
On 8/18/08, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
> other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
> opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> If you are refering to me its actually Alex, Brian"s wife, that writes
> pots here<bwg>
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@... <ballou12400%40yahoo.com>
> >
> To: [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:53:42 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
>
> Thanks katherine and yes i did get that and i dont actually have a real
> problem with some of the work arounds in this case however i wanted to
> use this as an opportunity to discuss some of the more borderline
> functions of judgement and modeling respect and responsibility.
>
> i dont want you to think that i believe the RUN age thing is the issue
> i was trying to discuss.
>
> I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are useless
> within a small community such as a home or family they are without a
> doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary tool for a
> society. look at any area that has seen a time without any government.
> chaos results and death and disaster follow.
>
> PB
>
> p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
> other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
> opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
And that was after all that talk over at AlwaysLearning about Grammar!:)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: k <katherand@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:14:30 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
You write pots here. ;) Heehee. (pots= lots of posts)
~Katherine
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: k <katherand@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:14:30 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
You write pots here. ;) Heehee. (pots= lots of posts)
~Katherine
On 8/18/08, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
> other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
> opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-
> If you are refering to me its actually Alex, Brian"s wife, that writes
> pots here<bwg>
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow. blogspot. com/
>
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@ yahoo.com <ballou12400% 40yahoo.com>
> >
> To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com<unschoolingbasics% 40yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:53:42 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
>
> Thanks katherine and yes i did get that and i dont actually have a real
> problem with some of the work arounds in this case however i wanted to
> use this as an opportunity to discuss some of the more borderline
> functions of judgement and modeling respect and responsibility.
>
> i dont want you to think that i believe the RUN age thing is the issue
> i was trying to discuss.
>
> I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are useless
> within a small community such as a home or family they are without a
> doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary tool for a
> society. look at any area that has seen a time without any government.
> chaos results and death and disaster follow.
>
> PB
>
> p.s. where have all the dad's gone on this list?
> other thatn an occasional post by Bryan i almost never read a man's
> opinion unless his wife is giving it.....hahaha.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I often use my birthdate to get Simon and Linnaea full-entry on to an on-line site. Partially because I can remember it better than I can some hedging of their own birthday, but also because it seems legitimate, in my head, to see myself as the person who is signing up for the access.
When Simon first got on to Neopets I signed him up at the age he was at the time. I then wrote the letter that was required to get him access to the rest of the website. It took almost a month. It wasn't very convenient. He got frustrated. I decided that it was easier for me to give my approval for him to access the adult sections of an on-line membership without jumping the hurdle that the service required.
There is this really cool climbing and zip swing sliding and treetop walking park near us. You have to be a certain height and 10 years old to participate. Linnaea is almost the height, but she's 8 and a bit. I talked about why they would have an age limit. There are lots of age limited access to things in the UK, far more than I remember there being in the U.S. So it isn't a new discussion. She was completely not comfortable with the idea of lying about her age to get into the harness and up the trees. Changing her age to access Neopets hasn't been a slippery slope for her into the realm of lying about her age. She doesn't want to be older than she is. And if she really wanted to go and do something that had an age limit I would work really hard to find ways around lying about her age.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 18 August, 2008 6:28:10 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
~~if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
belongs to. does that model respect.~~
Are you more concerned about respecting an arbitrary age rule, set up
to protect a network from liability issues or respecting your child's
desire to connect with friends? That's where you and I differ (amongst
many other things). I choose to respect my child more than some
arbitrary rule. Doesn't mean we ignore all rules. We can logically
analyze whether there is a good reason for something and whether it is
a useful rule.
The age of thirteen isn't some magical age that indicates a child's
ability to properly utilize an online community.
~~lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
laws prevent anything. Maybe to a small degree. But mostly it just
gives the law makers the ability to punish people. Laws exist to allow
punishment for not following the law. They don't exist to prevent
anything (thought the makers seem to think they do).
More laws don't equal less problems.
~~if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
shows a lack of critical thinking. It's faulty logic.
As for fake ID, my parents didn't drink or allow any alcohol in our
home. They certainly never lied about our ages. I borrowed a fake ID
at age 18 and went bar hopping. Actually, I'd been bar hopping before
and never got carded! The night I borrowed the fake ID I met my
husband of 19 years.:) Funny how things can work out eh?
I'm not advocating "ignore all rules" but I'm also baffled when people
say that by ignoring an age rule it somehow equates to any and all age
fudging as being equal. It's not.
~~ i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
unschoolers who have enriched our lives immensely, we in NO way are
impeaching upon any one else's right at self regulation. Not at all.
Maybe you should go read at the site itself and see how the children
are sharing their art,their dreams, their birthdays, their joys and
concerns, their lives with each other. It's a beautiful thing and I'm
glad for parents that are giving their child access to such rich
connections! Without ever causing infringement upon any other human
being or their rights. Cool huh?
Ren
learninginfreedom. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When Simon first got on to Neopets I signed him up at the age he was at the time. I then wrote the letter that was required to get him access to the rest of the website. It took almost a month. It wasn't very convenient. He got frustrated. I decided that it was easier for me to give my approval for him to access the adult sections of an on-line membership without jumping the hurdle that the service required.
There is this really cool climbing and zip swing sliding and treetop walking park near us. You have to be a certain height and 10 years old to participate. Linnaea is almost the height, but she's 8 and a bit. I talked about why they would have an age limit. There are lots of age limited access to things in the UK, far more than I remember there being in the U.S. So it isn't a new discussion. She was completely not comfortable with the idea of lying about her age to get into the harness and up the trees. Changing her age to access Neopets hasn't been a slippery slope for her into the realm of lying about her age. She doesn't want to be older than she is. And if she really wanted to go and do something that had an age limit I would work really hard to find ways around lying about her age.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 18 August, 2008 6:28:10 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Children on Radical Unschooler's Network
~~if i choose to use it and my expose and encourage my childs
use of a site how respectful am i being and are we being when we
violate the stipulations of the person or persons who the site
belongs to. does that model respect.~~
Are you more concerned about respecting an arbitrary age rule, set up
to protect a network from liability issues or respecting your child's
desire to connect with friends? That's where you and I differ (amongst
many other things). I choose to respect my child more than some
arbitrary rule. Doesn't mean we ignore all rules. We can logically
analyze whether there is a good reason for something and whether it is
a useful rule.
The age of thirteen isn't some magical age that indicates a child's
ability to properly utilize an online community.
~~lets face it in a society we do need some rules not just
> people following their own critical thought as that would lead toI guess that's another point we differ on. I don't think rules and
> complete oligarchy which by the way would eb the natural end result
> of anarchy.~~
laws prevent anything. Maybe to a small degree. But mostly it just
gives the law makers the ability to punish people. Laws exist to allow
punishment for not following the law. They don't exist to prevent
anything (thought the makers seem to think they do).
More laws don't equal less problems.
~~if the birth date on the website is so irrelivant what about a fake
> id to get into bars or why not just buy coke since i am a smart andIf you think that any and all lying about age is the same thing, that
> critical thinking person arent they all the same thing?~~
shows a lack of critical thinking. It's faulty logic.
As for fake ID, my parents didn't drink or allow any alcohol in our
home. They certainly never lied about our ages. I borrowed a fake ID
at age 18 and went bar hopping. Actually, I'd been bar hopping before
and never got carded! The night I borrowed the fake ID I met my
husband of 19 years.:) Funny how things can work out eh?
I'm not advocating "ignore all rules" but I'm also baffled when people
say that by ignoring an age rule it somehow equates to any and all age
fudging as being equal. It's not.
~~ i thought we were trying to accomplish modeling a behavior
> that wasnt about following rules to avoid punishment or to beAnd by choosing to fudge a birth date to join a lively group of
> rewarded but to respect those around us and ourselves in a way that
> allows us to just live and have our very life shine through with a
> manner that by its very essence does not impeach anothers right at
> self regulation.~ ~
unschoolers who have enriched our lives immensely, we in NO way are
impeaching upon any one else's right at self regulation. Not at all.
Maybe you should go read at the site itself and see how the children
are sharing their art,their dreams, their birthdays, their joys and
concerns, their lives with each other. It's a beautiful thing and I'm
glad for parents that are giving their child access to such rich
connections! Without ever causing infringement upon any other human
being or their rights. Cool huh?
Ren
learninginfreedom. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules areI haven't seen anyone suggest rules are useless. Instead, I believe
> useless within a small community such as a home or family they are
> without a doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary
> tool for a society. look at any area that has seen a time without
> any government. chaos results and death and disaster follow.
what is being said is that everyone makes their own choices about
whether or not to follow a certain rule/law. I do not break every
law, but I'll confess I have sometimes broken a rule. I sometimes
speed in my vehicle. I have lied about being sick to get a day off
at work (if caught doing so in one particular job, it was grounds for
terminaion). I think people make choices every day that have
consequences. Laws are supposedly written for the good of the
public. But what about some of the crazy laws that have made it onto
the books? Have you ever researched those? Am I really criminal if
I utter the phrase 'Oh boy' in Jonesboro Georgia, which reportedly
does have a law on the books making that illegal?
I don't think our country is on the verge of destruction because some
people don't follow all the rules all the time. History also shows
many people breaking laws and dealing with consequences.
Gotta get to work.
Beth M.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
And isn't it refreshing to look at today's governments throughout the
world?
It's nice to know that, in the rule/law-bound societies that we have
NOW, there is absolutely NO chaos, NO death, and NO disaster.
Thank goodness for laws and rules! They are soooo comforting!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
> I do however disagree and respectfully so that while rules are-=-=-=-=-=-
> useless within a small community such as a home or family they are
> without a doubt(look at any example in world history) a necessary
> tool for a society. look at any area that has seen a time without
> any government. chaos results and death and disaster follow.
And isn't it refreshing to look at today's governments throughout the
world?
It's nice to know that, in the rule/law-bound societies that we have
NOW, there is absolutely NO chaos, NO death, and NO disaster.
Thank goodness for laws and rules! They are soooo comforting!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
amberlee_b
I always thought it was funny that "rules" always say "Don't" first so the only thing a child
hears is bite, poke, tease, hit. Why don't parents do the positive thing? Why is it usually
negative? Parental history? I don't know, but if a child only hears the final word why not
have it be peace? or love? or play? try this? (redirection) or (insert your word here). It is no
wonder to me that most children by the time they are 2 are saying NO! They hear it
constantly.
When we had children we chose not to do it that way and it was miraculous --the children
were happy, loving, and didn't start yelling NO at age 2...or 3.....or 4....or even now. LOL If
we want to be respectful and help our children, guide our children, shouldn't they be able
to learn to make good decisions and take the natural consequences of the poor ones? I
don't mean stand there and watch as your baby pulls a boiling pot of water down on
herself or a toddler put his hand on a flaming stove. Those consequences are too severe,
but I mean letting them learn while redirecting their behavior in a positive way till they are
able to understand the differences.
I am not sure if I am making sense right now, so tired. So I apologize if my critical brain
cells are currently down. LOL
I just knew from my background that I didn't want to behave the way my parents did and I
didn't want my children to hate me the way I hated them. Abuse is not an option. So I
discussed it with my husband, we read a lot and we found a way to be that was ok for
both of us. He had been spanked on occasion but knew why, I had been beaten. I felt
spanking was evil and wanted it not in my home. Where is the peace in that??? So he went
along, and although he did spank a couple times, that was all it took for him to see it
wouldn't work and would not be a good way if we wanted a happy home. sounds cheesy, I
know. But I am the only one to break the mold of my family. I have to work at it all the
time. I have to remember that rules aren't laws. There is a difference. I hope my children
will do the same, but they have their own agency to choose. They will make their choices
based on the information they have. My job is to help them find all the information they
need or want.
We are the models they will take with them when they are grown and have families of their
own. If we practice what we preach they will know, if we don't it will show.
hears is bite, poke, tease, hit. Why don't parents do the positive thing? Why is it usually
negative? Parental history? I don't know, but if a child only hears the final word why not
have it be peace? or love? or play? try this? (redirection) or (insert your word here). It is no
wonder to me that most children by the time they are 2 are saying NO! They hear it
constantly.
When we had children we chose not to do it that way and it was miraculous --the children
were happy, loving, and didn't start yelling NO at age 2...or 3.....or 4....or even now. LOL If
we want to be respectful and help our children, guide our children, shouldn't they be able
to learn to make good decisions and take the natural consequences of the poor ones? I
don't mean stand there and watch as your baby pulls a boiling pot of water down on
herself or a toddler put his hand on a flaming stove. Those consequences are too severe,
but I mean letting them learn while redirecting their behavior in a positive way till they are
able to understand the differences.
I am not sure if I am making sense right now, so tired. So I apologize if my critical brain
cells are currently down. LOL
I just knew from my background that I didn't want to behave the way my parents did and I
didn't want my children to hate me the way I hated them. Abuse is not an option. So I
discussed it with my husband, we read a lot and we found a way to be that was ok for
both of us. He had been spanked on occasion but knew why, I had been beaten. I felt
spanking was evil and wanted it not in my home. Where is the peace in that??? So he went
along, and although he did spank a couple times, that was all it took for him to see it
wouldn't work and would not be a good way if we wanted a happy home. sounds cheesy, I
know. But I am the only one to break the mold of my family. I have to work at it all the
time. I have to remember that rules aren't laws. There is a difference. I hope my children
will do the same, but they have their own agency to choose. They will make their choices
based on the information they have. My job is to help them find all the information they
need or want.
We are the models they will take with them when they are grown and have families of their
own. If we practice what we preach they will know, if we don't it will show.
amberlee_b
THANK YOU! This is just what I was looking for! :)
--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> Here's someplace else to read answers for questions to unschoolers about
> rules:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
>
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Debra Rossing
Yeah, we fudged DS' age on Neopets also - and I recently had a
discussion with him about being careful about giving out information
since not everyone is who they say they are (in regards to a 19 yr old
from somewhere or other who sent a friend request). Basically, I just
asked that he let us know about such requests before he adds them as
friends.
And, I thought of a time when I'm basically always "fudging" things
either overtly or covertly (that is verbally or non verbally). When I go
to a bookstore (say B&N) and use my Educator Discount card on a stack of
Pokemon books and MASH season DVDs and such. I -do- divide out things
that are gifts for others and stuff that is strictly my own reading
material. But, most of the stuff in the pile is stuff that will be used
for our life as a family (books on herb gardening for instance). Most of
the time, no one asks about it, they just take the discount but on
occasion I've been asked "Is this for classroom use?" W-e-e-l-l-l by
their definition of 'classroom' Not exactly; by our definition (all the
world's a stage and we are but learners on't) yes, definitely. So, I say
Yes. Definite fudge factor there - but then again the answer to the
question is not black & white.
Deb
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discussion with him about being careful about giving out information
since not everyone is who they say they are (in regards to a 19 yr old
from somewhere or other who sent a friend request). Basically, I just
asked that he let us know about such requests before he adds them as
friends.
And, I thought of a time when I'm basically always "fudging" things
either overtly or covertly (that is verbally or non verbally). When I go
to a bookstore (say B&N) and use my Educator Discount card on a stack of
Pokemon books and MASH season DVDs and such. I -do- divide out things
that are gifts for others and stuff that is strictly my own reading
material. But, most of the stuff in the pile is stuff that will be used
for our life as a family (books on herb gardening for instance). Most of
the time, no one asks about it, they just take the discount but on
occasion I've been asked "Is this for classroom use?" W-e-e-l-l-l by
their definition of 'classroom' Not exactly; by our definition (all the
world's a stage and we are but learners on't) yes, definitely. So, I say
Yes. Definite fudge factor there - but then again the answer to the
question is not black & white.
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]