Hema A. Bharadwaj

Hello!.
Are there any unschooling-lists/groups for newbies where people are less
aggressive and more sensitive to people? People who while enjoying the
change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to go
for some... but some may want a gentler touch. We still get the message...
except its a gentler approach. a group who accepts that each of us is
already trying hard and perhaps simply need acknowledgment and support.

I too find the more experienced unschoolers here a bit aggressive in their
posting style. perhaps i'm a loner in this... but i find it hard to post
issues here due to the lash-outs that happen at times. we all want to get
'unschooling' in its true glory. that is not in question. I feel the writing
style sometimes is not one that would translate well into a real-life
conversation between an always-unschooler and a newbie.

I do admire the writing ability, word usage, experience, generosity of the
many members here.... i still want to be on-list... because i learn a lot.
Its just that at times i wince when i see someone's struggle go
unacknowledged... and instead they get the full-on-aggressive-advice.

Fyi my partner and i have started unschooling truly only about 3 months ago
and love how it has transformed our relationships with our 5 year old ds and
2 year old dd. We have moved twice inter-country in the past 1.5 years and
are experiencing a lot of adjustment issues at times... mostly with ds.

Wrt the 'cleaning up with children' email trail (which urged me to write
now).. I'm still at a stage where my children are unable to appreciate a
clean home... but living here in Pune, India... where the outside is dirty,
ill-maintained and fly ridden many a time.... a clean home is appreciated a
lot more by my son these days. He will say... he prefers our home to the
outside. I speak of cleanliness only in terms of dust-build-up, not leaving
food outside uncovered, washing up more often... so that sticky trails don't
attract the inevitable flies and ant-families etc... toys on the floor and
cushions on top of the kitchen counter are not considered messy here :-)

Also recently when i helped my son with re-organizing his humongous lego
collection in color-based drawers.... he mentioned within a few days... that
he thinks its a great way to be able to find what he is looking for asap.
But he asked me to continue to help him stay on top of the chaos that ensues
after a couple of days of lego-mania. so nice to have found a solution and
be able to help him with something that would drive us nuts... trying to
find a compass needle in a lego-stack ;-)

Love and peace to all,
Hema
















--
Hema A. Bharadwaj
Pune, India


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~People who while enjoying the
change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to
go for some... but some may want a gentler touch. ~~


I think most of the lists dedicated to radical unschooling are pretty
on topic. They seem pretty gentle if a person is open and questioning,
rather than defensive and full of cognitive dissonance.:)

I've read patient responses from old-timers here year after year. But
when a person gets ticked off at being questioned, then the list can
seem harsh.

Just try to remember that everyone here is volunteering their time,
away from their families and truly wants to help. After eight years of
lists I sometimes wonder if I'm crazy and there are many that have
done it much longer than I!!

I bet someone here has a list of lists to share. Boy, that sounds
funny. I've had people go off in a huff to create a "nicer, gentler"
list and the list is never successful.

It takes a great deal of passion to run a list of this size for a very
long time and with great passion comes some bluntness at times. Not
for everyone, but for Kelly and I it is true.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

hema a b

Dear Ren,
I thank you for sharing time, thought and experience. your replies
always help me.

i always thought this is something all of you want to do... and it
does not keep you away from your families. why would you do that? I
don't understand your response. if its such a difficult thing to
maintain this list... then i'm truly grateful but sad that what i take
to be a natural extension of community is actually taking a toll on
some of you more experienced folks.

What is cognitive dissonance... i'll look it up. but i'm not talking
about members being defensive. i'm talking about tone of voice of
responders. and i think your email expresses different reasons for
the abrupt nature of responses. I'm not 'off in a huff'. i plan to
stay with this group due to its many wonderful qualities. I just
believe that there may be a need for a supportive crowd... some place
where i feel like hanging out and being able to say... 'i lost my
temper and it sucked' but to an unschooling bunch. i'm not net
savvy... and not sure if there is a diff name for such groups etc.

I did not realise that the age of the group and its consistency had
much to do with success of the group. I feel if connections are made
online then its more likely to succeed. But then i may not be always
looking for advice. more like 'i've been there and it gets better'
types.

anyway... thanks for maintaining this list for so long and for your
and kelly's efforts. best, hema

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~People who while enjoying the
> change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to
> go for some... but some may want a gentler touch. ~~
>
>
> I think most of the lists dedicated to radical unschooling are pretty
> on topic. They seem pretty gentle if a person is open and questioning,
> rather than defensive and full of cognitive dissonance.:)
>
> I've read patient responses from old-timers here year after year. But
> when a person gets ticked off at being questioned, then the list can
> seem harsh.
>
> Just try to remember that everyone here is volunteering their time,
> away from their families and truly wants to help. After eight years of
> lists I sometimes wonder if I'm crazy and there are many that have
> done it much longer than I!!
>
> I bet someone here has a list of lists to share. Boy, that sounds
> funny. I've had people go off in a huff to create a "nicer, gentler"
> list and the list is never successful.
>
> It takes a great deal of passion to run a list of this size for a very
> long time and with great passion comes some bluntness at times. Not
> for everyone, but for Kelly and I it is true.:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Hema A. Bharadwaj

Dear Ren,
resending this .... as i tried to send it via the yahoo page and it failed.
so here it is again... hopefully for the first time.

I thank you for sharing time, thought and experience. your replies always
help me.

I always thought this is something all of you want to do... and am surprised
that it keeps you away from your families. why would you do that? I don't
understand parts of your response. if its such a difficult thing to
maintain this list... then i'm truly grateful but sad that what i take to be
a natural extension of community is actually taking a toll on some of you
more experienced folks. Because naturally if you are doing this as a
service and have to respond to each query... then it will take a toll on
you.

What is cognitive dissonance?... i'll look it up. but i'm not talking about
folks being defensive. i'm talking about tone. and i think your email
expresses different reasons for the abrupt nature of responses. I'm not
going "off in a huff". I just believe that there may be a need for a
supportive on-line group... some where i feel like hanging out and being
able to say... i lost my temper and it sucked. etc. i'm not net savvy...
and not sure if there is a diff name for such groups etc. I thought this
online community helped newbies find a community to work with... perhaps i
should take the name "unschooling basics" literally? as in it only speaks
of tenets and is not a place to rant, rave and ask for advice as well?

I did not realise that the age of the group and its consistency had much to
do with success of the group. I feel if connections are made online then
its successful. But then i may not be always looking for advice. more like
a 'i've been there and it gets better' type of group.

anyway... thanks for maintaining this list for so long and for your's and
Kelly's efforts. best, Hema




--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
>
> ~~People who while enjoying the
> change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to
> go for some... but some may want a gentler touch. ~~
>
>
> I think most of the lists dedicated to radical unschooling are pretty
> on topic. They seem pretty gentle if a person is open and questioning,
> rather than defensive and full of cognitive dissonance.:)
>
> I've read patient responses from old-timers here year after year. But
> when a person gets ticked off at being questioned, then the list can
> seem harsh.
>
> Just try to remember that everyone here is volunteering their time,
> away from their families and truly wants to help. After eight years of
> lists I sometimes wonder if I'm crazy and there are many that have
> done it much longer than I!!
>
> I bet someone here has a list of lists to share. Boy, that sounds
> funny. I've had people go off in a huff to create a "nicer, gentler"
> list and the list is never successful.
>
> It takes a great deal of passion to run a list of this size for a very
> long time and with great passion comes some bluntness at times. Not
> for everyone, but for Kelly and I it is true.:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>


--
Hema A. Bharadwaj
Pune, India


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 30, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Hema A. Bharadwaj wrote:

> People who while enjoying the
> change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves?

I think people just don't talk about the struggle much. Some people
understand the ideas right away, but I'm betting very few people
found this easy to put into practice. Letting go of control is hard!

Several months ago this topic came up about the advantages of support
for the struggle and the advantages of support to fix things. Someone
mentioned that she had joined a list for help with a chronic illness.
At first the support felt good, but then she realized the support
became a trap. It was all about soothing the difficulty, people
supporting each other in how hard life was. But it didn't help her
move on. When there was so much support for the difficulties (and
cheering for small progress) there wasn't the push she needed to get
off her butt and do the hard work she needed to do.

If someone's having a hard time letting go posts with progress of the
form, "This is hard, but I actually only made my kids do math today
but I totally relaxed on the reading, yay me!" are not going to get a
very positive responses!

But if someone posts "This is hard!" they'll probably get a chorus of
"Yes, it is!" It will then be followed by, "Tell us about what you're
struggling with and maybe people will come up with some ideas to help
make it less difficult." The list isn't about support for how hard it
is because that's a trap. It's support for moving on from the hard
parts to get to the good parts :-)

As Sandra Dodd recently said on the Unschooling Discussion list, that
list (and this list) "is for helping kids have better unschooling moms."

*Our kids* need us to hear "Yes, it's hard. Let's figure out how to
make it easier *and* have better relationships right now with our
kids." We only have a few years with our kids. We don't have the
leisure to paddle about near the banks of the river seeking cheers
for having moved another foot away from the edge. Our kids are out
there riding the rapids to adulthood! ;-)

> I feel the writing
> style sometimes is not one that would translate well into a real-life
> conversation between an always-unschooler and a newbie.

The big thing that's missing is tone of voice. Readers supply their
own tone and the tone they supply comes from the writer's word choice
and from the reader's past, *not* directly from the writer.

If someone writes a gentle probing question trying to turn someone's
thinking around, like "Why should she be interested in making her
bed?" it *might *get heard by a reader (depends on the reader!) in an
accusatory tone because the reader has grown up with people who ask
questions like that that really mean "Are you an idiot?"

There are three things readers can do:

First is read as though your best friend were speaking. Hear a tone
of loving support (even if the words are throwing you off.) Know that
people *do* want to help!

Second, if you can't hear a gentle tone in a particular person's
post, skip them.

Third, do a lot more reading. If it's hard to hear the advice
directed to you, read in the archives and absorb the advice that was
written to someone else. It's often easier to be objective that way.

Every person posting help on the list is someone who has said
"Instead of doing x, I'm going to take time from my life to answer
some unschooling questions." They do it because they enjoy expressing
their ideas about unschooling in a certain way. It's a gift they're
giving away.

If someone loves knitting and they're churning out scarves and then
leaving them on their fence for people to take if they like them, it
would be rude for a passerby to complain that someone used purple
instead of orange! ;-)

Everyone should take what they find that's useful to them and leave
the rest. The rest will probably make more sense later as you get
closer to unschooling.

> Are there any unschooling-lists/groups for newbies where people are
> less
> aggressive and more sensitive to people?

Lots of people start them when they get upset with the tone of the
discussion lists! The ones I've checked up on have puttered out. The
problem is that the discussion lists are lively because people are
passionate about the subject they're writing about. They get fired up
to express what they love in a way that might help someone. It forces
them to take time from their busy lives to sit down and pound out a
response.

But to hold people's hands and say "You're right, this is hard. The
same thing is happening to me," is good for a while. It can feel like
a breath of fresh air after the intensity of a discussion list! But
it doesn't get writers fired up. After a while watching a rerun of a
TV show with the kids sounds better. After even longer doing the
dishes looks even better ;-) Support just doesn't rouse people's
passion the way discussion can unfortunately. :-/

I do keep asking people if they find a supportive group, to come back
and post it. But they never do. Either they don't care. (Lack of
passion ;-) or they don't find them.

The best place for support is real life, I think, because besides the
support, people are getting that face to face social contact they
crave. So they get something else out of it besides holding someone's
hand. Obviously that's really hard to get in some areas! Maybe people
could post about how they find support -- even if it's in other ways
like finding hobbies -- when physical groups aren't available.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Hema. I love the colored lego drawers idea. Thanks for that.

~Katherine



On 7/30/08, Hema A. Bharadwaj <hbonda@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!.
> Are there any unschooling-lists/groups for newbies where people are less
> aggressive and more sensitive to people? People who while enjoying the
> change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to go
> for some... but some may want a gentler touch. We still get the message...
> except its a gentler approach. a group who accepts that each of us is
> already trying hard and perhaps simply need acknowledgment and support.
>
> I too find the more experienced unschoolers here a bit aggressive in their
> posting style. perhaps i'm a loner in this... but i find it hard to post
> issues here due to the lash-outs that happen at times. we all want to get
> 'unschooling' in its true glory. that is not in question. I feel the
> writing
> style sometimes is not one that would translate well into a real-life
> conversation between an always-unschooler and a newbie.
>
> I do admire the writing ability, word usage, experience, generosity of the
> many members here.... i still want to be on-list... because i learn a lot.
> Its just that at times i wince when i see someone's struggle go
> unacknowledged... and instead they get the full-on-aggressive-advice.
>
> Fyi my partner and i have started unschooling truly only about 3 months ago
> and love how it has transformed our relationships with our 5 year old ds
> and
> 2 year old dd. We have moved twice inter-country in the past 1.5 years and
> are experiencing a lot of adjustment issues at times... mostly with ds.
>
> Wrt the 'cleaning up with children' email trail (which urged me to write
> now).. I'm still at a stage where my children are unable to appreciate a
> clean home... but living here in Pune, India... where the outside is dirty,
> ill-maintained and fly ridden many a time.... a clean home is appreciated a
> lot more by my son these days. He will say... he prefers our home to the
> outside. I speak of cleanliness only in terms of dust-build-up, not leaving
> food outside uncovered, washing up more often... so that sticky trails
> don't
> attract the inevitable flies and ant-families etc... toys on the floor and
> cushions on top of the kitchen counter are not considered messy here :-)
>
> Also recently when i helped my son with re-organizing his humongous lego
> collection in color-based drawers.... he mentioned within a few days...
> that
> he thinks its a great way to be able to find what he is looking for asap.
> But he asked me to continue to help him stay on top of the chaos that
> ensues
> after a couple of days of lego-mania. so nice to have found a solution and
> be able to help him with something that would drive us nuts... trying to
> find a compass needle in a lego-stack ;-)
>
> Love and peace to all,
> Hema
>
> --
> Hema A. Bharadwaj
> Pune, India
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Hema A. Bharadwaj <hbonda@...>


I always thought this is something all of you want to do... and am
surprised
that it keeps you away from your families. why would you do that?

-=-=-=-=-

It *is* something we want to do . That's why we do it. <g> Remember: we
each get to *choose* how we spend our time! <g>

But do you really think running a list this active (and it's been
pretty quiet lately---summer) does NOT take time?

I usually read throughout the day and write in the mornings when my son
is still asleep (of course he's sleeping until 5:00PM lately, so my day
has opened up a lot. <g>). But writing nevertheless is taking time away
from *something*---cleaning, gardening, the dog, the bees,...something.
I try really hard not to have it interfere with the time with my
husband and children. It does sometimes though---when things get busy.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't understand parts of your response. if its such a difficult
thing to
maintain this list... then i'm truly grateful but sad that what i take
to be
a natural extension of community is actually taking a toll on some of
you
more experienced folks. Because naturally if you are doing this as a
service and have to respond to each query... then it will take a toll
on you.

-=-=-=-=-

Yep. It takes its toll. If you read the archives, there will be times
when we (Ren or I) will take a break from the list. It can get
exhausting and frustrating. "Coribell" was frustrating---and a couple
of her posts weren't even allowed through to the list. I SOOO love to
help people who want to get it. I get SOOO tired of folks who just want
to argue.

Two of our best writers (moderators Deb and Rue) hardly ever write any
more. It's unfortunate because they can get to the point SO well (and
they're so very funny!). But they have lives too and would rather spend
their time with their kids than answer emails that they've answered a
zillion times already.

Don't think that any of these questions are new. I don't think I've
heard a new concern or question is five or six years! Most we could
answer in our sleep. Except that I don't sleep-type. <G>

And I think folks need to understand that these lists are here for
exactly as long as the owners and moderators *want* them to be. The day
that it's not worth it for *us* any more, these lists will end.

-=-=-=-=-=-

What is cognitive dissonance?... i'll look it up. but i'm not talking
about
folks being defensive. i'm talking about tone. and i think your email
expresses different reasons for the abrupt nature of responses. I'm not
going "off in a huff". I just believe that there may be a need for a
supportive on-line group... some where i feel like hanging out and being
able to say... i lost my temper and it sucked. etc. i'm not net
savvy...
and not sure if there is a diff name for such groups etc. I thought this
online community helped newbies find a community to work with...
perhaps i
should take the name "unschooling basics" literally? as in it only
speaks
of tenets and is not a place to rant, rave and ask for advice as well?

-=-=-=-=-=-

It's a place to ask questions and give advice about unschooling and
mindful parenting. It is NOT a place to whine about how hard it is to
rear children or to get pats on the back. We know how hard it can
be---and we also know that there is a better way! It's also NOT a place
to give advice that works *against the parent-child relationship or
against unschooling.

I know of no such group, but it's REALLY easy to start an online group
through yahoo. *You* could do it. You could advertise here. Let folks
know there is a "support" group for new unschoolers. People would come.
But the chances that it would succeed are slim.

Support groups don't help you be better. They support you where you
*are*. I would say that it's *almost* impossible to get to unschooling
without WORK. Without taking hard, tough looks at your-own-self to see
where you are now and where you want to be. Without questioning
yourself and pushing yourself past where you you're comfortable.

It's NOT easy! It's about dumping loads of baggage. And it's hard to
dump baggage when a crowd of others are saying, "Here, let me help you
carry that another mile or two." It's so much more helpful ---if you
*WANT* to lose that baggage---for someone to say, "Here, let's toss
THAT one in the river. Oh---and let me kick THAT one down the hill!"

This list is NOT about toting Samsonite!

But if you want to start one of those, go for it!

-=-=-=-=-=-

I did not realise that the age of the group and its consistency had
much to
do with success of the group.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Why not?

-=-=-=-=-

I feel if connections are made online then its successful.

-=-=-=-=-=-

You really may be looking for another type of group.

Connections *are* made here. Some of my best friends in the world are
from these lists! Virtual and In Real Life. But that's not the purpose
of this list.

-=-=-=-=-

But then i may not be always looking for advice. more like
a 'i've been there and it gets better' type of group.

-=-=-=-=-

The deal is: We have almost ALL "been there"---and because we're here
offering our stories, you can SEE that it gets better. That is the
message.

But you don't "get here" by whining about how tough it is now and
asking for pats on the back. You "get *here*" by DOING it and doing
better each time.

I'm sure there's a need for the kind of list you're interested in.
Start one. But don't expect it to help you go further in your
understanding of unschooling. More than likely, you will stagnate. It's
the nature of the beast.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org




**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Adrean Clark

If you look in the archives for "learning-takes" you'll find some
people who have lost their temper and the responses that have helped
;). It can be very very hard at times and a lot of us have taken
breaks. In the long term though, I appreciate the blunt answer more.

I did the Lego color organization thing with my oldest before. Someone
posted a good question - is it (the system) what I want or him? It
does make a difference if it's my idea/frustration or his. Good thing
that your son asked for help with the Legos but was the system of
organization his idea? For us it lasted a while but it was really my
idea so it didn't work. In the end a more respectful situation would
have developed if I was more attuned to him.

RU is about being attuned to the kids - it makes sense and helps if we
are more attuned to others (intentions) as well.

Adrean

On 7/30/08, Hema A. Bharadwaj <hbonda@...> wrote:
> Hello!.
> Are there any unschooling-lists/groups for newbies where people are less
> aggressive and more sensitive to people? People who while enjoying the
> change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to go
> for some... but some may want a gentler touch. We still get the message...
> except its a gentler approach. a group who accepts that each of us is
> already trying hard and perhaps simply need acknowledgment and support.
>
> I too find the more experienced unschoolers here a bit aggressive in their
> posting style. perhaps i'm a loner in this... but i find it hard to post
> issues here due to the lash-outs that happen at times. we all want to get
> 'unschooling' in its true glory. that is not in question. I feel the writing
> style sometimes is not one that would translate well into a real-life
> conversation between an always-unschooler and a newbie.
>
> I do admire the writing ability, word usage, experience, generosity of the
> many members here.... i still want to be on-list... because i learn a lot.
> Its just that at times i wince when i see someone's struggle go
> unacknowledged... and instead they get the full-on-aggressive-advice.
>
> Fyi my partner and i have started unschooling truly only about 3 months ago
> and love how it has transformed our relationships with our 5 year old ds and
> 2 year old dd. We have moved twice inter-country in the past 1.5 years and
> are experiencing a lot of adjustment issues at times... mostly with ds.
>
> Wrt the 'cleaning up with children' email trail (which urged me to write
> now).. I'm still at a stage where my children are unable to appreciate a
> clean home... but living here in Pune, India... where the outside is dirty,
> ill-maintained and fly ridden many a time.... a clean home is appreciated a
> lot more by my son these days. He will say... he prefers our home to the
> outside. I speak of cleanliness only in terms of dust-build-up, not leaving
> food outside uncovered, washing up more often... so that sticky trails don't
> attract the inevitable flies and ant-families etc... toys on the floor and
> cushions on top of the kitchen counter are not considered messy here :-)
>
> Also recently when i helped my son with re-organizing his humongous lego
> collection in color-based drawers.... he mentioned within a few days... that
> he thinks its a great way to be able to find what he is looking for asap.
> But he asked me to continue to help him stay on top of the chaos that ensues
> after a couple of days of lego-mania. so nice to have found a solution and
> be able to help him with something that would drive us nuts... trying to
> find a compass needle in a lego-stack ;-)
>
> Love and peace to all,
> Hema
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Hema A. Bharadwaj
> Pune, India
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 30, 2008, at 2:00 AM, hema a b wrote:

> I just
> believe that there may be a need for a supportive crowd... some place
> where i feel like hanging out and being able to say... 'i lost my
> temper and it sucked'

People can say that and get sympathy. But they'll *also* get what
feels like help (to the writers anyway). Help to find something they
can try next time. Help to analyze why it happened. (Those pesky
"Why?" questions that feel like attacks!

I know what you're saying. When my daughter is having problems with
something she often just wants to vent as she working through it. She
wants to say "This stinks!" and wants to hear "Yeah, I know what you
mean. That does stink." She doesn't want to hear "Well, here's what
you can do." She isn't in that place. She's working it out and wants
the freedom to do that. Just wants a place to vent.

But I have no clue how that could work on a list. If everyone were on
the same path to radical unschooling, everyone were in agreement that
moving forward was better than stopping, then sympathy for the hard
parts could be useful. So when someone says "I feel bad. I broke down
and made my son do a sheet of math problems today," and they can get
sympathy. But what happens when someone says, "But I feel better. At
least I got some math into him."?

There's going to be a different comfort level for each person where
support for the person turns into support for the actions.

It's not that people here don't tolerate mistakes. It's that we
understand the trap in stopping with sympathy. As hard as the journey
can be, continuing to move forward when things get rough is even harder.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Johnston

Hi Kelly, you know, at first I was really annoyed by the tone of this list but I have been coming around. There were times that I wanted to unsubscribe but I realized that at the very least I should look between the lines and glean what I can. I moved from that and realized that tone doesn't bother me as much anymore....if it does, I just ignore that particular post or shrug it off.

But what I have been thinking about lately is that it would be helpful to me as a newbie to know that veterans *were* at some point struggling with specific things and to talk about that journey. It can be inspirational to hear how someone was once where you are now and what they did to get to where *they* are now (and possibly how long it took). I know that everyone is different but for me at least, I love to make connections with people who have similar stories and gain strength from them to do the hard work and move forward.

Also FWIW, I have felt very supported here but I have in the past felt similarly to some of the posters in this topic. I think my advice to other newbies like myself is to stay here and try to figure out *why* a post in particular would make you feel upset and never take it personally. Kelli



EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOODJoin me

To: [email protected]: kbcdlovejo@...: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:01:14 -0400Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: about this group




-----Original Message-----From: Hema A. Bharadwaj <hbonda@...>I always thought this is something all of you want to do... and am surprisedthat it keeps you away from your families. why would you do that?-=-=-=-=-It *is* something we want to do . That's why we do it. <g> Remember: we each get to *choose* how we spend our time! <g>But do you really think running a list this active (and it's been pretty quiet lately---summer) does NOT take time?I usually read throughout the day and write in the mornings when my son is still asleep (of course he's sleeping until 5:00PM lately, so my day has opened up a lot. <g>). But writing nevertheless is taking time away from *something*---cleaning, gardening, the dog, the bees,...something. I try really hard not to have it interfere with the time with my husband and children. It does sometimes though---when things get busy.-=-=-=-=-I don't understand parts of your response. if its such a difficult thing tomaintain this list... then i'm truly grateful but sad that what i take to bea natural extension of community is actually taking a toll on some of youmore experienced folks. Because naturally if you are doing this as aservice and have to respond to each query... then it will take a toll on you.-=-=-=-=-Yep. It takes its toll. If you read the archives, there will be times when we (Ren or I) will take a break from the list. It can get exhausting and frustrating. "Coribell" was frustrating---and a couple of her posts weren't even allowed through to the list. I SOOO love to help people who want to get it. I get SOOO tired of folks who just want to argue.Two of our best writers (moderators Deb and Rue) hardly ever write any more. It's unfortunate because they can get to the point SO well (and they're so very funny!). But they have lives too and would rather spend their time with their kids than answer emails that they've answered a zillion times already.Don't think that any of these questions are new. I don't think I've heard a new concern or question is five or six years! Most we could answer in our sleep. Except that I don't sleep-type. <G>And I think folks need to understand that these lists are here for exactly as long as the owners and moderators *want* them to be. The day that it's not worth it for *us* any more, these lists will end.-=-=-=-=-=-What is cognitive dissonance?... i'll look it up. but i'm not talking aboutfolks being defensive. i'm talking about tone. and i think your emailexpresses different reasons for the abrupt nature of responses. I'm notgoing "off in a huff". I just believe that there may be a need for asupportive on-line group... some where i feel like hanging out and beingable to say... i lost my temper and it sucked. etc. i'm not net savvy...and not sure if there is a diff name for such groups etc. I thought thisonline community helped newbies find a community to work with... perhaps ishould take the name "unschooling basics" literally? as in it only speaksof tenets and is not a place to rant, rave and ask for advice as well?-=-=-=-=-=-It's a place to ask questions and give advice about unschooling and mindful parenting. It is NOT a place to whine about how hard it is to rear children or to get pats on the back. We know how hard it can be---and we also know that there is a better way! It's also NOT a place to give advice that works *against the parent-child relationship or against unschooling.I know of no such group, but it's REALLY easy to start an online group through yahoo. *You* could do it. You could advertise here. Let folks know there is a "support" group for new unschoolers. People would come. But the chances that it would succeed are slim.Support groups don't help you be better. They support you where you *are*. I would say that it's *almost* impossible to get to unschooling without WORK. Without taking hard, tough looks at your-own-self to see where you are now and where you want to be. Without questioning yourself and pushing yourself past where you you're comfortable.It's NOT easy! It's about dumping loads of baggage. And it's hard to dump baggage when a crowd of others are saying, "Here, let me help you carry that another mile or two." It's so much more helpful ---if you *WANT* to lose that baggage---for someone to say, "Here, let's toss THAT one in the river. Oh---and let me kick THAT one down the hill!"This list is NOT about toting Samsonite!But if you want to start one of those, go for it!-=-=-=-=-=-I did not realise that the age of the group and its consistency had much todo with success of the group.-=-=-=-=-=-Why not?-=-=-=-=-I feel if connections are made online then its successful.-=-=-=-=-=-You really may be looking for another type of group.Connections *are* made here. Some of my best friends in the world are from these lists! Virtual and In Real Life. But that's not the purpose of this list.-=-=-=-=-But then i may not be always looking for advice. more likea 'i've been there and it gets better' type of group.-=-=-=-=-The deal is: We have almost ALL "been there"---and because we're here offering our stories, you can SEE that it gets better. That is the message.But you don't "get here" by whining about how tough it is now and asking for pats on the back. You "get *here*" by DOING it and doing better each time.I'm sure there's a need for the kind of list you're interested in. Start one. But don't expect it to help you go further in your understanding of unschooling. More than likely, you will stagnate. It's the nature of the beast.~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://www.LiveandLearnConference.org**************************************See what's new at http://www.aol.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> aggressive advice/responses are a good way to go for some... but
> some may want a gentler touch.

I once felt like you about the posting style. I hooked up with
another dissatisfied newbie unschooler and we started our own kinder,
gentler unschooling support group. It didn't work out the way we
expected. At first, we mostly discussed how attacked we felt on the
more popular lists, this one included. Once we got past that, the
group just didn't really help me toward unschooling. Instead, we
coddled one another on the areas where we were having trouble. We
justified our excuses for not being able to truly unschool all areas
of life. Rather than learning how to confront those monsters that
kept us at bay from living freely, we stayed in the safe place. I
learned that safe place isn't where I want to be.

I took the seasoned unschoolers advice and learned to look at the
posts on a non-personal level. I no longer think the posts are
aggressive. The style here is assertive and confident. Sometimes I
do disagree with what someone says. And that's okay because I can
mull it over in my mind and try to figure out why I disagree so
much. I must say that when I really looked at the things that
bothered me the most, those were the things that were really keeping
me from living freely and joyfully.

I'm generally not the type of person that responds well to assertive
techniques. I have shed many a tear thinking people just didn't
understand me. But in truth, they did and do understand. It's taken
me years to grow and become more assertive and confident in myself.
This is exactly why I think unschooling is so great for my children.
If I hold onto the arbitrary rules and beliefs that didn't make me
happy, then I wasn't allowing my children to be happy either.

One thing that may help is to space out the posts a bit. If you ask
a question or participate in a discussion, don't read all the
responses at one time. Read 1 or 2 and think about them before
reading more or responding. Maybe even journal your thoughts so you
can go back and physically view what your mind is processing.

For me, when I really started actively looking into my thought
processes, I saw that I was feeling disrespected. I felt like all
the housework was on my shoulders. I felt like all the child care
responsibility was mine. I felt like I had to be someone different
to please my husband. But all of those were distorted perceptions.
My children didn't make messes to make me miserable. They were just
trying to be happy. They didn't want to stay up late because they
wanted to affect my sleep. I was too personally involved in
everything. Once I really learned to step back and not look at
everything in my life as something done personally to me, I was able
to readjust my thinking. And it's been like a floodgate lifted.

Okay, I'm rambling on too much now. I really do understand where you
are coming from. I came to unschooling in stages, over the last 4
years. I say we're unschoolers but I'm still not exactly where I
want to be. I'm still learning each day along with my children. It
has helped me to understand that the concept of unschooling isn't
really about my children at all. It's about changing what I'm
thinking and how I live.

Beth M.

hema a b

Thanks to the folks who took time with my post. I feel the following
paragraph (pasted below) expresses what i'm trying to say. I feel
like some have not understood me when they label me a whiner. I'm not
whining and nor intend to. I expect compassion even as the points are
made. obviously if some one simply said... sorry... but do'nt have
time to finesse anything here... then that woudl have been easy to get
for me.

Coddling, carrying another's samsonite etc... not getting anything
accross as its not answering anything in my email. thanks to all for
trying to get my mail... but mostly not getting it at all. obviously
onus is on me to explain myself better. but i can't i guess at this
point.

anyway... i wish to stop this topic.
thanks and peace to all,
hema
"But what I have been thinking about lately is that it would be
helpful to me as
a newbie to know that veterans *were* at some point struggling with
specific
things and to talk about that journey. It can be inspirational to hear how
someone was once where you are now and what they did to get to where
*they* are
now (and possibly how long it took). I know that everyone is different
but for
me at least, I love to make connections with people who have similar
stories and
gain strength from them to do the hard work and move forward."

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelli Johnston <KelliJohnston@...>

Hi Kelly, you know, at first I was really annoyed by the tone of this
list but I
have been coming around. There were times that I wanted to unsubscribe
but I
realized that at the very least I should look between the lines and
glean what I
can. I moved from that and realized that tone doesn't bother me as much
anymore....if it does, I just ignore that particular post or shrug it
off.

-=-=-=-=-

With the Olympics fast approaching (and I am SUCH a fan---I probably
won't sleep much to stay up this August in order to watch it all live!
<G>), I thought about looking at this from an athlete's point of view.

You arrive at training camp with a HUGE goal in mind: to make it on the
team and then to win in Bejing. There are 20 coaches with different
backgrounds and different coaching styles. But rather than pair you up
with ONE coach, you get the benefit of all 20. Some rub you the wrong
way. Some push too hard. Some are so sweet that they can't get you to
do anything. Some are coming from so far out of left field, you don't
even know what they're asking of you. Some speak with such a heavy
accent, you can't even make out the directions.

But ALL are *there* for *you*! They all want *you* to bring home the
gold. They each have a style that worked for them---and probably works
for many others. You may jive with 15 or 16, but four or five of them
just drive you MAD. It's not that those four or five are bad
coaches----or that they have nothing to offer you. It's just that they
don't work with your way of learning. Luckily, you have 15 others to
rely on, huh?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But what I have been thinking about lately is that it would be helpful
to me as
a newbie to know that veterans *were* at some point struggling with
specific
things and to talk about that journey. It can be inspirational to hear
how
someone was once where you are now and what they did to get to where
*they* are
now (and possibly how long it took). I know that everyone is different
but for
me at least, I love to make connections with people who have similar
stories and
gain strength from them to do the hard work and move forward.

-=-=-=-=-=-

You know, we *all* have only our own stories to share (although I often
tell Joyce's story about spilled milk because it made such an
impression on ME!). Most of us shy away from concepts where we have
little to no experience (sibling rivalry is one I'm clueless on, other
than my own crappy childhood with my brother---and why I purposefully
don't have children close in age).

Our responses have a basis in experience: we've DONE those things we
suggest---and we suggest them because they worked for us!

I highly recommend going back and reading the archives here. (Even
better: go back and read the archives at UnschoolingDiscussion (which
was Unschoolingdotcom a long time ago) and unschooling.com message
boards. Unfortunately, I don't know how much of the archives are
available there---Pam and Joyce might know though. They're list
owners). Ren and I started unschooling just a few months apart. I was
already on board when she came on spitting and fuming over certain
things. I thought, "Lord, she will *never* get this! Why is the world
is she bothering?" <G>

I rarely posted---well, not until I really and truly understood it.
Ren's journey was documented in black and white. <g>

But the REALLY good archives are the ones on which someone is
struggling sooo hard, but just can't quite grasp it. She's asking and
pondering and trying things out, and the old farts are coaching her
through it, challenging and pushing and questioning back. The newbie
may even go away for a bit. But comes back a few weeks later with more
questions and concerns. She may storm off this time, frustrated and
infuriated, but she comes back a few months later, saying, "You know,
some of this seems to be working. Our home is more peaceful, the kids
seem to *like* me, and we aren't fighting about all those little
things! Now...what about *this*!"

Someone suggested to read a few posts and come back later---that's
good. But even better might be to go back to a point *before* you were
ever on this list and read similar questions/concerns. Because they've
all been answered so many times before---they're there. You just have
to look. But going back and reading what others have written when it's
NOT personal to *you*, it's easier to be objective. When the answers
are to *your* specific question, it's hard NOT to take it personally.
Reading accounts of a similar problem---where you have no stake---it's
easier to see the answers/advice in a more positive light.

But back to the original suggestion: <G>

You may certainly ASK about a specific situation. I've written LOADS
about how we were very traditional and conservative parents. Cameron
was in private school until the end of sixth grade. This was NOT
natural for us. It took a LOT of work.

But since I *have* written so extensively (and I don't keep a file of
all I've written), I get tired of writing the same things over and
over. I mean---really, you *can* go back into the archives. My life is
pretty well laid out there! <G> Others here too! Joyce has a brilliant
site full of things she;s written. Sandra also has an extensive site
chocked full of her---and OTHERS'---stories about coming to
unschooliing. No secrets. <G> Our histories are pretty well
documented. <G>

-==-=-=-=-=-=-

Also FWIW, I have felt very supported here but I have in the past felt
similarly
to some of the posters in this topic. I think my advice to other
newbies like
myself is to stay here and try to figure out *why* a post in particular
would
make you feel upset and never take it personally.

-=-=-=-=-

Because no one *knows* you! None of us know how you are at home. We
only have what *you* are giving us to work with. And we all use our own
experiences to explain what we have done in similar situations.

Often the things we react most vehemently against are the things we
most need to work on. If a post really disturbs you: take a minute,
breathe, and think about *why* it bothers you so much.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org




**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 29, 2008, at 11:00 PM, hema a b wrote:

> i always thought this is something all of you want to do... and it
> does not keep you away from your families. why would you do that? I
> don't understand your response. if its such a difficult thing to
> maintain this list... then i'm truly grateful but sad that what i take
> to be a natural extension of community is actually taking a toll on
> some of you more experienced folks.


It is something we want to do, of course, or we wouldn't be doing it.
But how could it not take us away from our own families? Every minute
that we decide to spend carefully reading and composing a response on
this list or another of the unschooling lists, is a minute NOT spent
doing something for our own family. There is ALWAYS an opportunity
cost to any decision.

I do it because people did it for me and it made my family's life
entirely different and entirely better. I feel very good about the
time I spend on it because, once in a while, I get a little positive
feedback which indicates that I've contributed to another family's
happier life. That feels good.

I also do it because the process of analyzing and discussing and, yes,
sometimes debating and arguing, has helped my own thinking become
clear and helped me become confident in my knowledge and understanding
of what makes unschooling work so well. So I get that out of it, for
myself and for my family, too.

I can promise that there have been MANY times over the years that my
family would have preferred that I'd get off the computer and do
something for them or with them. And, on this particular list, I'm not
an owner, so I have no responsibility to be here regularly and, if I
disappear for a while, the owners will carry on without me. But,
that's the point. The list owners really have to carry on, even when
they might not feel so much like it and even when other activities are
calling to them. They run the list out of love, but that doesn't mean
they don't sacrifice anything in order to keep it running. They do.

To be offered a list such as this is to be offered a gift of other
people's time. It really is pretty unmannerly to complain about how
that gift comes wrapped.

-pam

Mara

For me, I love the way things are said. I have been a member for two years now and I have learned a LOT! Our life has become very loving, free and happy and a lot has to do with this group. I do consider myself a radical unschooler but I realize there are still some areas where I am unclear or unsure about what to do. Then I like a clear and truthful answer. After meeting some of you in person (Ren, Kelly....) I know those are people I would love to have as neighbors, friends or family.
About the Legos: A while ago I organized the Legos roughly by size, but they got mixed up a lot. Then one day my then 5 or 6 y.o. son suggested to organize them by color instead, just like in the Lego store. We dumped all the Legos in a huge pile on the floor, counted how many colors we have, how many bins we need, which colors got the large and which got the smaller bins. We spend about two days doing this on and off, with my son reminding me to please can we keep sorting the Legos. He will still say to me sometimes, remember how much fun it was sorting the Legos?
He also thinks it is a lot of fun cleaning beaches. He has been asking me for a while now to do that one again. Pack up some trash bags and head to the beach - we once filled two black trash bags at one beach. He is horrified as to how people can do this. And yes, it was all his idea. He might have gotten it from somewhere (Curious George? Nature Channel?) of course.

Mara



----- Original Message ----
From: Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:05:39 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] about this group


If you look in the archives for "learning-takes" you'll find some
people who have lost their temper and the responses that have helped
;). It can be very very hard at times and a lot of us have taken
breaks. In the long term though, I appreciate the blunt answer more.

I did the Lego color organization thing with my oldest before. Someone
posted a good question - is it (the system) what I want or him? It
does make a difference if it's my idea/frustration or his. Good thing
that your son asked for help with the Legos but was the system of
organization his idea? For us it lasted a while but it was really my
idea so it didn't work. In the end a more respectful situation would
have developed if I was more attuned to him.

RU is about being attuned to the kids - it makes sense and helps if we
are more attuned to others (intentions) as well.

Adrean

On 7/30/08, Hema A. Bharadwaj <hbonda@gmail. com> wrote:
> Hello!.
> Are there any unschooling- lists/groups for newbies where people are less
> aggressive and more sensitive to people? People who while enjoying the
> change to unschooling. . still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way to go
> for some... but some may want a gentler touch. We still get the message...
> except its a gentler approach. a group who accepts that each of us is
> already trying hard and perhaps simply need acknowledgment and support.
>
> I too find the more experienced unschoolers here a bit aggressive in their
> posting style. perhaps i'm a loner in this... but i find it hard to post
> issues here due to the lash-outs that happen at times. we all want to get
> 'unschooling' in its true glory. that is not in question. I feel the writing
> style sometimes is not one that would translate well into a real-life
> conversation between an always-unschooler and a newbie.
>
> I do admire the writing ability, word usage, experience, generosity of the
> many members here.... i still want to be on-list... because i learn a lot.
> Its just that at times i wince when i see someone's struggle go
> unacknowledged. .. and instead they get the full-on-aggressive- advice.
>
> Fyi my partner and i have started unschooling truly only about 3 months ago
> and love how it has transformed our relationships with our 5 year old ds and
> 2 year old dd. We have moved twice inter-country in the past 1.5 years and
> are experiencing a lot of adjustment issues at times... mostly with ds.
>
> Wrt the 'cleaning up with children' email trail (which urged me to write
> now).. I'm still at a stage where my children are unable to appreciate a
> clean home... but living here in Pune, India... where the outside is dirty,
> ill-maintained and fly ridden many a time.... a clean home is appreciated a
> lot more by my son these days. He will say... he prefers our home to the
> outside. I speak of cleanliness only in terms of dust-build-up, not leaving
> food outside uncovered, washing up more often... so that sticky trails don't
> attract the inevitable flies and ant-families etc... toys on the floor and
> cushions on top of the kitchen counter are not considered messy here :-)
>
> Also recently when i helped my son with re-organizing his humongous lego
> collection in color-based drawers.... he mentioned within a few days... that
> he thinks its a great way to be able to find what he is looking for asap.
> But he asked me to continue to help him stay on top of the chaos that ensues
> after a couple of days of lego-mania. so nice to have found a solution and
> be able to help him with something that would drive us nuts... trying to
> find a compass needle in a lego-stack ;-)
>
> Love and peace to all,
> Hema
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Hema A. Bharadwaj
> Pune, India
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google. com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

I, like many others here, didn't like the "tone" on the list. And if
you search the archives for my posts you can see it got very ugly.
Twice. Once, then once again several months later. I don't post here
much. I read a lot. And what I SHOULD have done...what I was told to
do but ignored...was NOT to post to ask anything but simply read for a
while.

Once I read for a while, I actually saw the true nature of the list.
It's not about Tracey and her daughter Petunia's messy bedroom...it's
about parents who want to RU and their reactions to a child's
room...even down to the language "messy"...and what that says about
our POV. I think it was Ren...maybe it was not...who said once you
post an idea to the list, it's like tossing a ball into a court. It's
no longer your problem, it's the idea. It's not as I said Petunia's
messy bedroom, it's several ideas that are bouncing around and bumping
into each other.

Yeah it would be nice if the tone was nicer, and I'm very abrasive so
if I find the tone harsh I can imagine what you more sensitive types
"hear" when you read! But in the end if you remove your personality
and life from the post, the answers don't seem like attacks. It just
takes time.

Karen

Ren Allen

~~But what I have been thinking about lately is that it would be
helpful to me as a newbie to know that veterans *were* at some point
struggling with specific things and to talk about that journey. It can
be inspirational to hear how someone was once where you are now and
what they did to get to where *they* are now (and possibly how long it
took).~~

I think that's a great thing to post about! When someone comes along
and talks about their struggle, asking for people that have shared
that struggle to post about it, then you DO get a supportive response.

Just because this is geared towards being a discussion list, doesn't
mean support doesn't come about as a side effect.:) It does. What
helps the most, is people simply sharing their struggle or talking
about times they lose it and asking others for methods that helped
them get beyond it.

Then there is an instant swell of "here's what worked for me" type
response. Much more useful for everyone than if someone comes along
saying "you all suck" or "I'm never going to agree with any of you".
Know what I mean?

Nobody has to agree. But the most useful queries and conversations
happen when everyone simply shares what helped them move closer to
unschooling (rather than further away)....though every time someone
comes along trying to advocate for mainstream practices there is a
flurry of posts and I think a lot of help too.

As to "time away from my family",yeah. I am here on the computer
rather than doing something else that could benefit us directly as a
family unit. It's in me to talk and share about unschooling but it
gets wearying to hear about how "mean" we all are.

I'm not trying to be mean or hateful. But I guess since Kelly and I
started this list for a specific purpose, WE get to decide how it's
run. Yay us.
;)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~Support groups don't help you be better. They support you where you
*are*. I would say that it's *almost* impossible to get to unschooling
without WORK.~~


I agree.
I also see that what Hema and others are talking about is one failing
of the email lists. We've discussed this at conferences many times.

That face-to-face contact you get at a real life discussion is SO
different than what you experience at these groups. It's easy to feel
attacked when 10 people question you. It isn't that anybody wants
anyone else to FEEL attacked, but when you're new and a bit raw or
vulnerable it can feel icky.

Fact-to-face you have the expressions, and sometimes hugs and tears
and you have the natural flow of conversation rather than a bunch of
questions all at once. It works in a more supportive manner.

There is no way to make emails lists be something they aren't. There
ARE different flavors to lists for sure, but the most busy and
interesting are often somewhat direct at times. Some of the "nice"
lists I've dropped by are all in discussions about anything BUT
unschooling. Which is waste of time for those that want to be on-topic.

There is a new place for unschoolers that you (and others) may really
enjoy. It FEELS more supportive in many ways, partly because you make
a profile with your picture and there's more of a human connection
just by having those pics!

My good friend Laura started it and I highly encourage you to check it
out. There are some hard hitting discussions but there are also
various groups for artists and local people and whatever getting
started up. There's a chat box and you can add "friend" to your
profile and leave comments at each others profiles.

Here's the link: http://familyrun.ning.com/

Maybe I'll see you there! I think this list is a very useful place too
and I hope you'll hang in for the long haul.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

carenkh

~~Thanks to the folks who took time with my post.~~

I just want to point out... it's been a little over 12 hours since
your original post. Not even a day. I work part-time, plus it takes a
while for thoughts to percolate in my head - I'm sure I'm not the only
one here that wants to respond, and will, in due time.


~~anyway... i wish to stop this topic.~~

Sorry - it's out here, now! ;) The discussion will go on. Did you mean
you wish to stop responding? You don't have to participate if you
don't want to, but other folks' thoughts have been sparked, and
they'll be writing in. Once a topic is introduced, it's not "yours"
any more, if you know what I mean.

And - I missed where anyone labeled you a whiner. I did a search for
whiner in the archives, and yours was the only recent post that
included that word. Someone did write, it's not a place to whine about
how hard it is. That's a statement of fact about the list. Can you see
the difference? That it wasn't directed towards you, personally?

I've enjoyed reading what you have to say!

peace,
Caren

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: hema a b <hbonda@...>

I expect compassion even as the points are
made. obviously if some one simply said... sorry... but do'nt have
time to finesse anything here... then that woudl have been easy to get
for me.

-=-=-=-=-

Assume *everyone* is too short of "time to finesse anything here."

Seriously! We really do have lives too. Today amid all this chatter,
I've planned a pool party for this afternoon, cleaned the house, picked
vegies and fruits in the 100 degree heat, packed bags for our trip this
afternoon to Florida, and taken care of 20 submission for a state-wide
homeschool association I run. Luckily, my younger son is still asleep,
but we baked his cake last night. <g> Cameron just got in and will run
a few errands for me before we leave.

I really don't have time to coddle folks. But no one has to be a member
here or even read my posts. (There's some way to ban certain emails if
you want to. Sorry: I don't know how.)

But I think it's a good idea to understand that no one is responding to
*you*. We're responding to the group. So if a post or a poster rubs you
the wrong way, bummer. But plenty of folks come here *just* for that
reason---for THAT post or THAT poster. If it were all set up "just for
you," it might not be what makes someone else happy.

So we'll each keep posting in the manner we prefer.

-=-=-=-

Coddling, carrying another's samsonite etc... not getting anything
accross as its not answering anything in my email. thanks to all for
trying to get my mail... but mostly not getting it at all. obviously
onus is on me to explain myself better. but i can't i guess at this
point.

-=-=-=-=-=-

That's one of the bonuses of posting on these lists. It makes your own
writing clearer. Not overnight, but over time.

The more we write, the more we think, and the clearer we become---not
only in our words, but in our thoughts. It's a cool cycle. <G>

-=-=-=-==-=-

anyway... i wish to stop this topic.

-=-=-=-=-

<BWG> It doesn't belong to you any more. It belongs to the group. You
may choose to respond or not, and topics have a life of their own. They
expand and contract and implode and morph into all sorts of other
topics. Part of the "life" of an e-list.

Others may respond, and it may die----well it *will* eventually---only
to arise again a few months from now. Maybe *someone* will be helped by
it. Hard to say. <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org



**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Robert Saxon

Hmmm...occasional poster here, but most recently lurking.

I've definitely had the whole "Crimineys, this list can be HARSH!"
experience. But to beat a dead horse, email has a number of pitfalls that
are easy to fall into. The voice we read the responses with is ours, not
the person who wrote it. And when we start arguing over the TONE of email
instead of the content, then we're all trying to be mind-readers. With that
said, I still think some responses are overly blunt. So how to help this?

Believe that everyone here are really trying to help me. Assume that their
motivations are honorable. The negative wording can then be more easily
handled and ignored.

This has helped me personally avoid the negativity pit a few times. Perhaps
it would be of use to others.

--Rob Saxon
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (6) and Elissa (5)
DH to Seana for 11 7/12 years


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese

Hi Hema

When I came to this list, I knew what I was in for. ;)

When I first found out about unschooling I joined SD's list AL only
to leave a few days later because I didn't like being sensored and I
became totally turned off by the harsh tone. My posts didn't make it
to the list and I got upset and left. But as I kept coming back to
the ideas of John Holt and other unschooling books I began to
understand more and more that the reason why I left was truly because
I wasn't at a place to 'hear' what was being said. I still have a
hard time 'hearing' what is being said on this board because it
challenges everything I have every grown up to know as true. And it
still does. Its still hard for me to stay. Every few days I
struggle with wanting to leave the group. But every few days I learn
something new and get recharged for living with my
children 'joyfully'.

Believe me, this list is much gentler than SD's.

I also find MDC www.mothering.com/discussions 'unschooling' group to
be very newbie friendly.

Hugs,
Therese



--- In [email protected], "Hema A. Bharadwaj"
<hbonda@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!.
> Are there any unschooling-lists/groups for newbies where people are
less
> aggressive and more sensitive to people? People who while enjoying
the
> change to unschooling.. still find things hard and are working on
> unschooling themselves? aggressive advice/responses are a good way
to go
> for some... but some may want a gentler touch. We still get the
message...
> except its a gentler approach. a group who accepts that each of us
is
> already trying hard and perhaps simply need acknowledgment and
support.
>
> I too find the more experienced unschoolers here a bit aggressive
in their
> posting style. perhaps i'm a loner in this... but i find it hard
to post
> issues here due to the lash-outs that happen at times. we all want
to get
> 'unschooling' in its true glory. that is not in question. I feel
the writing
> style sometimes is not one that would translate well into a real-
life
> conversation between an always-unschooler and a newbie.
>
> I do admire the writing ability, word usage, experience, generosity
of the
> many members here.... i still want to be on-list... because i learn
a lot.
> Its just that at times i wince when i see someone's struggle go
> unacknowledged... and instead they get the full-on-aggressive-
advice.
>
> Fyi my partner and i have started unschooling truly only about 3
months ago
> and love how it has transformed our relationships with our 5 year
old ds and
> 2 year old dd. We have moved twice inter-country in the past 1.5
years and
> are experiencing a lot of adjustment issues at times... mostly with
ds.
>
> Wrt the 'cleaning up with children' email trail (which urged me to
write
> now).. I'm still at a stage where my children are unable to
appreciate a
> clean home... but living here in Pune, India... where the outside
is dirty,
> ill-maintained and fly ridden many a time.... a clean home is
appreciated a
> lot more by my son these days. He will say... he prefers our home
to the
> outside. I speak of cleanliness only in terms of dust-build-up,
not leaving
> food outside uncovered, washing up more often... so that sticky
trails don't
> attract the inevitable flies and ant-families etc... toys on the
floor and
> cushions on top of the kitchen counter are not considered messy
here :-)
>
> Also recently when i helped my son with re-organizing his humongous
lego
> collection in color-based drawers.... he mentioned within a few
days... that
> he thinks its a great way to be able to find what he is looking for
asap.
> But he asked me to continue to help him stay on top of the chaos
that ensues
> after a couple of days of lego-mania. so nice to have found a
solution and
> be able to help him with something that would drive us nuts...
trying to
> find a compass needle in a lego-stack ;-)
>
> Love and peace to all,
> Hema
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Hema A. Bharadwaj
> Pune, India
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~I still have a
hard time 'hearing' what is being said on this board because it
challenges everything I have every grown up to know as true.~~

That's exactly what cognitive dissonance is!:)
It's when we hold two opposing ideas at the same time. When evidence
comes along that is contrary to our own ideas we experience cognitive
dissonance.

We all experience it to some degree, some people more than others.
It's especially strong when related to self-perception.

For example, if someone believes that forcing their child to do
schoolwork makes them a "good" parent and someone comes along with
evidence to the contrary, it can really cause cognitive dissonance.
How can that person hold onto the idea of themself being a "good"
parent when solid evidence is showing otherwise?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It's interesting to watch it unfold in unschooling circles because
unschoolers can really throw out some philosophy and "truths" that
challenge mainstream ideas. I had plenty of cognitive dissonance when
I was first letting go of the whole tv/chores issues.

I KNEW that it was bad for kids to watch too much tv. Knew it in the
core of my being. I KNEW what the results would be.

And then there were these damn pesky people offering up evidence to
the contrary. Since both my "truth" and their evidence could not be
true, I experienced quite a bit of that "dissonance" inside myself. It
sucked.;)

What I've mostly learned is to not cling to tightly to even my own
ideas cuz they might change tomorrow.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 30, 2008, at 6:34 PM, Therese wrote:
> Believe me, this list is much gentler than SD's.


Apparently only if you consider complaining about someone behind their
back, on another list, gentle.

-pam

k

Unschooling is a set of skills.

Perspectives change over time. In the meantime, for people who have yet to
master the skill set, it sucks to hear someone speaking CONFIDENTLY about
it. It's uncomfortable ---*downright embarrassing*--- being NEW. Those
skilled at unschooling might seem ARROGANT rather than confident, displaying
the ease you don't have yet.

It's like learning a new instrument. Like guitar playing. It sucks to jam
with players who are CONFIDENT and really know what they're doing while
you're fumbling around with badly executed muddy-sounding chords.
Observation helps. Trying what they're doing helps. Keep on keeping on.
Complaining doesn't help much of anything.

To learn anything new and get good at it, stick around.

If a newbie asks a seasoned guitar player to support their fumblings by
pretending it's still hard for them (which is probably true at times but not
most times) .... just to help them feel better about how themselves, how
does it help them learn more about unschooling?

Stick with it to understand and truly live wholelife unschooling. If you
feel that it will be worth it to you family and yourself, to your children,
your husband, and maybe even someday for extended family should they be
interested.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:32 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:

> Unschooling is a set of skills.
>
> Perspectives change over time. In the meantime, for people who have yet to
> master the skill set, it sucks to hear someone speaking CONFIDENTLY about
> it. It's uncomfortable ---*downright embarrassing*--- being NEW. Those
> skilled at unschooling might seem ARROGANT rather than confident,
> displaying
> the ease you don't have yet.
>
> It's like learning a new instrument. Like guitar playing. It sucks to jam
> with players who are CONFIDENT and really know what they're doing while
> you're fumbling around with badly executed muddy-sounding chords.
> Observation helps. Trying what they're doing helps. Keep on keeping on.
> Complaining doesn't help much of anything.
>
> To learn anything new and get good at it, stick around.
>
> If a newbie asks a seasoned guitar player to support their fumblings by
> pretending it's still hard for them (which is probably true at times but
> not
> most times) .... just to help them feel better about how themselves, how
> does it help them learn more about unschooling?
>
> Stick with it to understand and truly live wholelife unschooling. If you
> feel that it will be worth it to you family and yourself, to your children,
> your husband, and maybe even someday for extended family should they be
> interested.
>
>


I love this analogy!! For a seasoned player to see a newbie with habits that
may impede his prowess and say "oh that's all right, don't worry" doesn't
make the newb a better player; doesn't set the newb on a path to becoming
truly proficient.
For those of us who fully understand the fleeting time that childhood (&
parenting) *really* is, to say "Oh it's all right, you'll figure it out" is
a disservice to both parents and children. Had I not been on the receiving
end of some hard-core, wake-up conversations, I truly would have missed far
more than I've gained.
Unschooling isn't for everyone. As Sandra Dodd often says, no one has a gun
to your head forcing you to agree with the principles nor read any words you
don't agree with. You can do the chores thing and the bedtime thing and a
whole plethora of disrespectful parenting practices and call yourself
whatever you want. Here though, there are parameters for discussions that
lead to BETTER relationships with our kids RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE. Advocating
actions that are, on principle, working against respectful relationships
will be called out and discussed. And this is where *hurt feelings* come in
-- get past the importance of your feelings and see the sense in what is
being said. Being said with the sweetest auntie voice over 4:00 tea service
(or imagine whatever situation brings the words to a calmer place).
It's not the questioners that receive a passionate response from the
veterans, it's the folks who come to this list and post things like "I'm not
an unschooler, but THIS works for us...." This is a list for unschoolers, a
discussion place for those who *want* to work towards the kinds of
relationships modeled by those who have been unschooling FAR longer than the
most of us!! (yeah, *especially* Sandra Dodd -- we should ALL wish our
relationships with our kids are a smidgen as amazing as hers are!)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert Saxon

And part of what keeps that newbie guitar player practicing is (a) getting
better, and (b) continually envisioning how it's going to be. And speaking
personally, envisioning how I want to be -- how I want to respond, to act
proactively, to interact, all of it -- has helped me a lot.

Has envisioning your desired future helped anyone else?

--Rob Saxon

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 3:32 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:

> Unschooling is a set of skills.
>
> Perspectives change over time. In the meantime, for people who have yet to
> master the skill set, it sucks to hear someone speaking CONFIDENTLY about
> it. It's uncomfortable ---*downright embarrassing*--- being NEW. Those
> skilled at unschooling might seem ARROGANT rather than confident,
> displaying
> the ease you don't have yet.
>
> It's like learning a new instrument. Like guitar playing. It sucks to jam
> with players who are CONFIDENT and really know what they're doing while
> you're fumbling around with badly executed muddy-sounding chords.
> Observation helps. Trying what they're doing helps. Keep on keeping on.
> Complaining doesn't help much of anything.
>
> To learn anything new and get good at it, stick around.
>
> If a newbie asks a seasoned guitar player to support their fumblings by
> pretending it's still hard for them (which is probably true at times but
> not
> most times) .... just to help them feel better about how themselves, how
> does it help them learn more about unschooling?
>
> Stick with it to understand and truly live wholelife unschooling. If you
> feel that it will be worth it to you family and yourself, to your children,
> your husband, and maybe even someday for extended family should they be
> interested.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 31, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Robert Saxon wrote:

> And part of what keeps that newbie guitar player practicing is (a)
> getting
> better, and (b) continually envisioning how it's going to be. And
> speaking
> personally, envisioning how I want to be -- how I want to respond,
> to act
> proactively, to interact, all of it -- has helped me a lot.
>
> Has envisioning your desired future helped anyone else?

Absolutely. I was, let's say, attracted to the ideas of unschooling. I
accepted them readily. But the entire "attentive parenting" aspect of
it did not even sink in to me until I spent a half-hour or so in a car
with Sandra and her daughter, Holly. Holly was 6, I think. And, since
then, every single time I spend time with unschoolers who have chosent
to thoroughly live a holistic unschooling lifestyle, I am inspired
again and my own parenting is always notched up another level.

Sandra said, in a conference talk, to not be afraid to think dangerous
thoughts - that just thinking them wasn't going to make anything
actually happen. She suggested being brave and maybe duct-taping
ourselves into a chair, get someone to spot us. and let ourselves
think freely <g>. I felt a shiver go through me when I heard those
words - "think dangerous thoughts?" Wow.

So - I did that (well, minus the duct-tape and the spotter, but I got
her point). It was an actual challenge to LET myself imagine - to
honestly say, "Well, what IF I don't teach my kid to read?" "What IF I
never make her take a shower?" "What if she eats nothing but potato
chips for the next ten years?" Sitting down with the purpose of
letting myself really analyze and examine "dangerous thoughts" was
extraordinarily liberating and empowering. I highly recommend it. I
had to MAKE my brain do it - encountered a lot of resistance in
myself. Lots of fear and lots of conventional thinking that did NOT
want to be dislodged. I forced myself to notice which thoughts most
disturbed me and I wrenched my brain into looking at them. I could
tell when I was defending my old thoughts and I actively pushed those
defensive thoughts aside - just for the moment, remember, while I was
engaged in "thinking dangerous thoughts." I'd say, "Okay, you can
still think THAT when you're all done with this, but for now, what if
the truth is that ....." and I'd fill in something that seemed risky
to me.

I highly recommend this attitude be adopted when reading the various
radical unschooling lists. If something hurts, scares, offends, or
otherwise disturbs you - then look harder at it and just pretend, for
the moment, that the other person knows what they are talking about -
temporarily grant them credibility and consider their ideas seriously.

You can always walk away and go back to your old thoughts.

-pam

diana jenner

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Robert Saxon <TheSaxons@...> wrote:

> And part of what keeps that newbie guitar player practicing is (a)
> getting
> better, and (b) continually envisioning how it's going to be. And speaking
> personally, envisioning how I want to be -- how I want to respond, to act
> proactively, to interact, all of it -- has helped me a lot.
>
> Has envisioning your desired future helped anyone else?
>
>
>


For us, this was *the* benefit to attending unschooling conferences. To
witness with my own eyes the practice of the principles, be a part of the
relationships that blossom in a principle-driven environment... there's
nothing like it in the whole world!
I read the words and they truly helped us move forward, though it was in the
eye-witnessing of People, the Families, behind the words, made all the
philosophy *mean* something. Gave me a Vision to work towards (a visual
learner myself) and indeed it has helped immensely.
Perhaps when one feels icky about something said here, it would help to
check out some of our blogs and see the People of which we speak. To see
that we're truly walking the walk of which we speak might assist in getting
past the angst of new information.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert Saxon

Moving back a bit more on topic -- I've also used the envisioning technique
to envision that the person writing to me is a really good friend. Though
her words can be harsh, and sometimes she COMPLETELY IGNORES

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 5:07 PM, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Robert Saxon <TheSaxons@...<TheSaxons%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > And part of what keeps that newbie guitar player practicing is (a)
> > getting
> > better, and (b) continually envisioning how it's going to be. And
> speaking
> > personally, envisioning how I want to be -- how I want to respond, to act
> > proactively, to interact, all of it -- has helped me a lot.
> >
> > Has envisioning your desired future helped anyone else?
> >
> >
> >
>
> For us, this was *the* benefit to attending unschooling conferences. To
> witness with my own eyes the practice of the principles, be a part of the
> relationships that blossom in a principle-driven environment... there's
> nothing like it in the whole world!
> I read the words and they truly helped us move forward, though it was in
> the
> eye-witnessing of People, the Families, behind the words, made all the
> philosophy *mean* something. Gave me a Vision to work towards (a visual
> learner myself) and indeed it has helped immensely.
> Perhaps when one feels icky about something said here, it would help to
> check out some of our blogs and see the People of which we speak. To see
> that we're truly walking the walk of which we speak might assist in getting
> past the angst of new information.
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]