"Stickability"
The Patersons
Hi. I'm after what wisdom you can give me!
I just got off the phone with my mum. We had the conversation yet again
about my 9yo daughter's issues with her piano lessons.
Background: my daughter likes piano and she had a great teacher and was very
keen, but then had to switch teachers and lost the enthusiasm for about six
months, not practising at all. We're now back with the original teacher and
she seems happier to continue. I had a chat with her a while ago and asked
her if she thought she wanted to continue and she said she wanted to be able
to play when she grew up, so wanted to continue.
Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to continue
with things you don't necessarily like because you might like them once you
get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued. How else
do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have to do things
we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as a child
otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but I do
have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone else to
spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in their
lives... and examples?
Thanks!
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just got off the phone with my mum. We had the conversation yet again
about my 9yo daughter's issues with her piano lessons.
Background: my daughter likes piano and she had a great teacher and was very
keen, but then had to switch teachers and lost the enthusiasm for about six
months, not practising at all. We're now back with the original teacher and
she seems happier to continue. I had a chat with her a while ago and asked
her if she thought she wanted to continue and she said she wanted to be able
to play when she grew up, so wanted to continue.
Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to continue
with things you don't necessarily like because you might like them once you
get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued. How else
do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have to do things
we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as a child
otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but I do
have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone else to
spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in their
lives... and examples?
Thanks!
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> How else do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, weMy first thought is remembering the things I was forced to do as a
> all have to do things we don't like in life, so you might as well
> learn how to do it as a child otherwise you won't be able to
> achieve anything as an adult."
child. I was told the same thing about learning responsibility,
accountability, and blah blah blah. What that really taught me
though is to not show an interest in anything because then I'd be
forced to do it. It took me years and years to overcome that learned
behavior. I was in my mid-30s when I felt ready to try something new
because I knew I had the option to quit if I didn't like it.
Yes there are things I do that I don't necessarily like to do. But I
do like the results of having done those things. I don't like doing
housework but I love living in a somewhat tidy room. So I choose to
get through the yucky part to live in the nice result. I can look at
things that way because I'm more mature than I was when I was a
child. I absolutely hated being told I needed to do things like a
grownup because one day I'd be one. The problem with that logic was
that I was being asked to be something I wasn't yet physically or
emotionally capable of being. The joy of adulthood was taken from me
before I even reached it. Again, it took years to find the joy in
life. My mom and sister still don't get it and think I'm wild and
weird. But I am happy and free and live a much more joyful life. I
wouldn't go back to their way of living for anything in the world!
Beth M.
hbmccarty
Hi Cecily-
Why would you want to stick to something you didn't want to do? My kids
stick with all kinds of things that they want to stick to. My son is 15
and totally gets that sometimes he needs to do something less than ideal
in order to get someplace he really wants to be. You should hear his
practice sessions- he is quite focused on achieving! I don't know if he
will follow this path for his entire life- but right now many of his
actions are focused on improving his bass playing as much as possible so
that he can become a well-known and well-paid performing musician. He
can get up early(which is not at all his thing), practice the same piece
for hours when his other choice is to go to a movie with friends, wear a
tie when that is required, etc, etc.
I think learning to NOT do things that other people choose for you is
really important. When your child finds the right thing, the thing they
are passionate about- they will stick to it- and if you have forced them
to stick to something else that you thought was a good thing you might
be preventing the from having the time or just the joy left in them to
find their own passion.
LOTS of adults change interests and careers. Whether your child will be
"successful" or not on some predetermined path is their choice- some
will choose these types of paths-some not- to me success is in making
your own choices in life and having the ability to enjoy yourself and be
kind to those around you, for a start!
Heather
The Patersons wrote:
Why would you want to stick to something you didn't want to do? My kids
stick with all kinds of things that they want to stick to. My son is 15
and totally gets that sometimes he needs to do something less than ideal
in order to get someplace he really wants to be. You should hear his
practice sessions- he is quite focused on achieving! I don't know if he
will follow this path for his entire life- but right now many of his
actions are focused on improving his bass playing as much as possible so
that he can become a well-known and well-paid performing musician. He
can get up early(which is not at all his thing), practice the same piece
for hours when his other choice is to go to a movie with friends, wear a
tie when that is required, etc, etc.
I think learning to NOT do things that other people choose for you is
really important. When your child finds the right thing, the thing they
are passionate about- they will stick to it- and if you have forced them
to stick to something else that you thought was a good thing you might
be preventing the from having the time or just the joy left in them to
find their own passion.
LOTS of adults change interests and careers. Whether your child will be
"successful" or not on some predetermined path is their choice- some
will choose these types of paths-some not- to me success is in making
your own choices in life and having the ability to enjoy yourself and be
kind to those around you, for a start!
Heather
The Patersons wrote:
>
>
> Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but I do
> have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone else to
> spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in their
> lives... and examples?
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
A Perry
my 12 year old daughter has been taking piano lessons on and off for about five years. her interest waxes and wanes. i have noticed that she practices much more in the winter than in the spring and summer- we're in the house more, it's quiet, and she sits at the piano with more focus than when the sun is shining, noises from outside are coming into the house because of the open windows, and little brother is standing in the living room with dripping swim trunks, shouting joyously for her to join him in the pool.
i respect that she follows this rhythm in her piano playing. i can see that she learns a lot over the winter, and she doesn't ever seem to forget what she learned, even if many weeks go by between her sessions. i've encouraged her to take lessons, but we even slack off of those in the summer. she just chooses to do other things. our piano teacher seems to understand, and is always happy to start back on a more regular schedule when the days get shorter.
does your child tend to lose interest in piano practice during the warmer months?
as for "stickability"- i don't know if my daughter will "stick" to piano throughout her life. i love hearing her play, and for purely selfish reasons, which i do share with her ("i love hearing you play"), i hope she does "stick" to it. we'll have to wait and see.
i respect that she follows this rhythm in her piano playing. i can see that she learns a lot over the winter, and she doesn't ever seem to forget what she learned, even if many weeks go by between her sessions. i've encouraged her to take lessons, but we even slack off of those in the summer. she just chooses to do other things. our piano teacher seems to understand, and is always happy to start back on a more regular schedule when the days get shorter.
does your child tend to lose interest in piano practice during the warmer months?
as for "stickability"- i don't know if my daughter will "stick" to piano throughout her life. i love hearing her play, and for purely selfish reasons, which i do share with her ("i love hearing you play"), i hope she does "stick" to it. we'll have to wait and see.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
From: hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] "Stickability"
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 8:46 AM
Hi Cecily-
Why would you want to stick to something you didn't want to do? My kids
stick with all kinds of things that they want to stick to. My son is 15
and totally gets that sometimes he needs to do something less than ideal
in order to get someplace he really wants to be. You should hear his
practice sessions- he is quite focused on achieving! I don't know if he
will follow this path for his entire life- but right now many of his
actions are focused on improving his bass playing as much as possible so
that he can become a well-known and well-paid performing musician. He
can get up early(which is not at all his thing), practice the same piece
for hours when his other choice is to go to a movie with friends, wear a
tie when that is required, etc, etc.
I think learning to NOT do things that other people choose for you is
really important. When your child finds the right thing, the thing they
are passionate about- they will stick to it- and if you have forced them
to stick to something else that you thought was a good thing you might
be preventing the from having the time or just the joy left in them to
find their own passion.
LOTS of adults change interests and careers. Whether your child will be
"successful" or not on some predetermined path is their choice- some
will choose these types of paths-some not- to me success is in making
your own choices in life and having the ability to enjoy yourself and be
kind to those around you, for a start!
Heather
The Patersons wrote:
>
>
> Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but I do
> have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone else to
> spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in their
> lives... and examples?
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:34 AM, The Patersons wrote:
frustrated or even bored with something - helped them stick with it by
pointing out that we often go through phases of more intense interest
and less intense interest and that a less-intense-interest phase
doesn't necessarily mean we want to quit forever. I've talked to them
about how fun and satisfying it is to stick with something long enough
to really make a lot of progress and develop skills and proficiencies.
I would NEVER try to talk them into sticking with something they were
hating. But if it is something they've really enjoyed and they seem to
me to still enjoy it, I might try to find a way to help them get
through the down time - but this is "support" - it is "with" them, not
coercion. Like, I might say, "Well, do you want to try only going to a
lesson every other week for a while?" Or, "Is there something special
you'd like to work on with your teacher instead of the regular
lessons?" Or, "How about taking a month off, just as a break, then
going back and seeing how it feels to you then?"
In other words, kids DO sometimes need support for sticking to
something. We have to judge how to support that in our child - each is
different and each situation is also different.
ON the other hand, sometimes a kid is truly just DONE with an activity
and ready to give it up. We have to know when to accept that they have
gotten out of it what they needed/wanted and are truly ready to move
on. It is so great to make it a "moving on" rather than a "quitting"
kind of experience. I learned to love when that happens - but it can
be a little bittersweet for the parent -- we can become vested in our
kids' activities and we can be disappointed in them when they don't
achieve certain goals. When a kid doesn't want to continue something,
we often look at what they are NOT achieving rather than what they
have learned.
I'd tell your mom that you agree - learning to stick with something
when interest temporarily wanes is a good thing. And you'll be working
with your daughter on ways to do that. And then add, "Of course,
knowing when to stop doing something that isn't working for you
anymore is also an important skill. We all have to learn to make good
choices about what we do with our time."
-pam
>I've helped my kids through periods when they were discouraged or
> Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but
> I do
> have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone
> else to
> spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in
> their
> lives... and examples?
frustrated or even bored with something - helped them stick with it by
pointing out that we often go through phases of more intense interest
and less intense interest and that a less-intense-interest phase
doesn't necessarily mean we want to quit forever. I've talked to them
about how fun and satisfying it is to stick with something long enough
to really make a lot of progress and develop skills and proficiencies.
I would NEVER try to talk them into sticking with something they were
hating. But if it is something they've really enjoyed and they seem to
me to still enjoy it, I might try to find a way to help them get
through the down time - but this is "support" - it is "with" them, not
coercion. Like, I might say, "Well, do you want to try only going to a
lesson every other week for a while?" Or, "Is there something special
you'd like to work on with your teacher instead of the regular
lessons?" Or, "How about taking a month off, just as a break, then
going back and seeing how it feels to you then?"
In other words, kids DO sometimes need support for sticking to
something. We have to judge how to support that in our child - each is
different and each situation is also different.
ON the other hand, sometimes a kid is truly just DONE with an activity
and ready to give it up. We have to know when to accept that they have
gotten out of it what they needed/wanted and are truly ready to move
on. It is so great to make it a "moving on" rather than a "quitting"
kind of experience. I learned to love when that happens - but it can
be a little bittersweet for the parent -- we can become vested in our
kids' activities and we can be disappointed in them when they don't
achieve certain goals. When a kid doesn't want to continue something,
we often look at what they are NOT achieving rather than what they
have learned.
I'd tell your mom that you agree - learning to stick with something
when interest temporarily wanes is a good thing. And you'll be working
with your daughter on ways to do that. And then add, "Of course,
knowing when to stop doing something that isn't working for you
anymore is also an important skill. We all have to learn to make good
choices about what we do with our time."
-pam
Shannon
There are some thing you to survive. walk. cook. clean. read. write. balance
a check book. and there are some things we learn to enjoy life.
Personally I hate cooking. I am blessed with a husband who also hates it
when I cook so he does most the cooking. I know how to do it and I can -
when inspiration hits - make amazing things but generally I hate doing it. I
love all the gadgets that help food cook themselves (except the microwave
that thing is evil!). I enjoy housework sound sick I know and my house isn't
perfect because just like learning to cook or read. cleaning is not an
instinct. I also enjoy reading. my first being mysteries. I have gone thru
many stages in my life horror, sci-fi, self-help, fantasy. but what if
someone had told me that just because I read mysteries first I must always
read mysteries? I would have stopped enjoying reading and stopped
altogether.
At age nine, I would be worrying about if she is getting as many experiences
as she would like not if she is sticking to one thing. There are people who
teach for money and there are people who teach because it is there passion
and wish to share that joy. I took voice lessons with an instructor I loved.
She told me if I didn't like the way she taught, she would help me find a
new instructor. I did not understand until that moment that different people
teach different ways and different people learn different ways and what you
have to do is find the right match. A bad match will take the joy right out
of whatever you are learning.
My son also wants me to add says that sometime kids try stuff that looks
really cool to do but once you try it - it just isn't so cool. He has tried
a lot of stuff in his short life though not nearly everything he wants to -
one can only fit so much into one year. I also try to do things a cheaply as
possible like this year he wants to try martial arts and bow and arrow. I am
still looking for a good martial arts class but there is a kid friendly
archery group that meets on Sundays and has equipment he can borrow.
We find our passion by trying lots of things!
Shannon
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of The Patersons
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "Stickability"
Hi. I'm after what wisdom you can give me!
I just got off the phone with my mum. We had the conversation yet again
about my 9yo daughter's issues with her piano lessons.
Background: my daughter likes piano and she had a great teacher and was very
keen, but then had to switch teachers and lost the enthusiasm for about six
months, not practising at all. We're now back with the original teacher and
she seems happier to continue. I had a chat with her a while ago and asked
her if she thought she wanted to continue and she said she wanted to be able
to play when she grew up, so wanted to continue.
Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to continue
with things you don't necessarily like because you might like them once you
get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued. How else
do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have to do things
we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as a child
otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but I do
have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone else to
spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in their
lives... and examples?
Thanks!
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a check book. and there are some things we learn to enjoy life.
Personally I hate cooking. I am blessed with a husband who also hates it
when I cook so he does most the cooking. I know how to do it and I can -
when inspiration hits - make amazing things but generally I hate doing it. I
love all the gadgets that help food cook themselves (except the microwave
that thing is evil!). I enjoy housework sound sick I know and my house isn't
perfect because just like learning to cook or read. cleaning is not an
instinct. I also enjoy reading. my first being mysteries. I have gone thru
many stages in my life horror, sci-fi, self-help, fantasy. but what if
someone had told me that just because I read mysteries first I must always
read mysteries? I would have stopped enjoying reading and stopped
altogether.
At age nine, I would be worrying about if she is getting as many experiences
as she would like not if she is sticking to one thing. There are people who
teach for money and there are people who teach because it is there passion
and wish to share that joy. I took voice lessons with an instructor I loved.
She told me if I didn't like the way she taught, she would help me find a
new instructor. I did not understand until that moment that different people
teach different ways and different people learn different ways and what you
have to do is find the right match. A bad match will take the joy right out
of whatever you are learning.
My son also wants me to add says that sometime kids try stuff that looks
really cool to do but once you try it - it just isn't so cool. He has tried
a lot of stuff in his short life though not nearly everything he wants to -
one can only fit so much into one year. I also try to do things a cheaply as
possible like this year he wants to try martial arts and bow and arrow. I am
still looking for a good martial arts class but there is a kid friendly
archery group that meets on Sundays and has equipment he can borrow.
We find our passion by trying lots of things!
Shannon
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of The Patersons
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "Stickability"
Hi. I'm after what wisdom you can give me!
I just got off the phone with my mum. We had the conversation yet again
about my 9yo daughter's issues with her piano lessons.
Background: my daughter likes piano and she had a great teacher and was very
keen, but then had to switch teachers and lost the enthusiasm for about six
months, not practising at all. We're now back with the original teacher and
she seems happier to continue. I had a chat with her a while ago and asked
her if she thought she wanted to continue and she said she wanted to be able
to play when she grew up, so wanted to continue.
Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to continue
with things you don't necessarily like because you might like them once you
get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued. How else
do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have to do things
we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as a child
otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
Now I know that there are so many flaws with that point of view, but I do
have flashes of doubt every so often, and I'd really like someone else to
spell out just how my children are going to have 'stickability' in their
lives... and examples?
Thanks!
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 29, 2008, at 5:46 AM, hbmccarty wrote:
from an older generation in which it was common to start working in
the late teens or early 20's and stick to that career and, ideally, to
that job, for decades.
These days, even those who stick with one career seldom stay with one
job very long - the most successful usually move around quite a bit.
MANY people change careers entirely, sometimes more than once, as
adults.
I, myself, have been teaching college economics for many years, but
then I started running a theater box office. Now I'm working for
WeightWatchers, training to be a leader.
I know someone who has worked in the same company since he was 20
years old. He is now 73 years old. Can you imagine 53 YEARS in the
same company? He has no plans to retire.
He has taken "sticking-to-it" pretty awfully far - wonder how his
parents treated that issue when he was a kid. I'll ask him.
Knowing when to make a change - that is really more important than
thinking you "should" stick with something.
-pam
>Good point. I think the glorification of "sticking to it" comes more
> LOTS of adults change interests and careers.
from an older generation in which it was common to start working in
the late teens or early 20's and stick to that career and, ideally, to
that job, for decades.
These days, even those who stick with one career seldom stay with one
job very long - the most successful usually move around quite a bit.
MANY people change careers entirely, sometimes more than once, as
adults.
I, myself, have been teaching college economics for many years, but
then I started running a theater box office. Now I'm working for
WeightWatchers, training to be a leader.
I know someone who has worked in the same company since he was 20
years old. He is now 73 years old. Can you imagine 53 YEARS in the
same company? He has no plans to retire.
He has taken "sticking-to-it" pretty awfully far - wonder how his
parents treated that issue when he was a kid. I'll ask him.
Knowing when to make a change - that is really more important than
thinking you "should" stick with something.
-pam
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "The Patersons"
<tuipiri@...> wrote:
My daughter's dad had the same viewpoint and we argued about it...
frequently. He felt that I let her quit everything. I look at her
and am like ok at 15 she has been working for 3 or 4 years, she was
on a synchronized swimming team for 4 years, involved in girls Inc
since 3rd grade, taken weaving classes for 2 years, etc. what the
hell are you talking about? Yes she's tried a bunch of stuff and
some things she tried and didn't like, so what. But his experience
was kids played team sports from 6 through High school and that's
it. Different experience, different expectations. Too bad for him
he left her for me to raise and then doesn't understand that I
raised her in my way.
My understanding is that no one has to do what they don't want to
do as an adult. You may FEEL like you have to but really you
CHOOSE to because either the reults are worth it or the consequences
aren't. We don't learn this by being made to do things as
children. If you talk to or meet older unschoolers they can be
incredibly focused. It is by being allowed to make decisions and
face the consequences that we learn.
Lizzy just started piano lessons about a month ago. She's been
messing around with a keyboard for a year and decided she needed
some guidance. We found a teacher that was a home schooler so she
is really cool about letting Liz go at her own pace. She is really
zooming through the concepts very quickly. When I went to the piano
store to buy the books she needed the man told me I had to make her
practice every day. My thought is she can choose how much to put
into it. I choose to pay for the lessons and drive her there. If
she doesn't want to go anymore she doesn't have to. If she wants
to improve she'll practice. She's also very cyclical with her
interests. She will imerse herself in something for hours for weeks
and then not touch it for awhile. That is just her learning
style. I trust her to let me know when she needs a break and she
trusts me to let her take one. It works out fine for us.
Kelly
<tuipiri@...> wrote:
>continue
> >
> Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to
> with things you don't necessarily like because you might like themonce you
> get better at them, and you might be very happy that youcontinued. How else
> do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have todo things
> we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it asa child
> otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."Hi Cecily
>
My daughter's dad had the same viewpoint and we argued about it...
frequently. He felt that I let her quit everything. I look at her
and am like ok at 15 she has been working for 3 or 4 years, she was
on a synchronized swimming team for 4 years, involved in girls Inc
since 3rd grade, taken weaving classes for 2 years, etc. what the
hell are you talking about? Yes she's tried a bunch of stuff and
some things she tried and didn't like, so what. But his experience
was kids played team sports from 6 through High school and that's
it. Different experience, different expectations. Too bad for him
he left her for me to raise and then doesn't understand that I
raised her in my way.
My understanding is that no one has to do what they don't want to
do as an adult. You may FEEL like you have to but really you
CHOOSE to because either the reults are worth it or the consequences
aren't. We don't learn this by being made to do things as
children. If you talk to or meet older unschoolers they can be
incredibly focused. It is by being allowed to make decisions and
face the consequences that we learn.
Lizzy just started piano lessons about a month ago. She's been
messing around with a keyboard for a year and decided she needed
some guidance. We found a teacher that was a home schooler so she
is really cool about letting Liz go at her own pace. She is really
zooming through the concepts very quickly. When I went to the piano
store to buy the books she needed the man told me I had to make her
practice every day. My thought is she can choose how much to put
into it. I choose to pay for the lessons and drive her there. If
she doesn't want to go anymore she doesn't have to. If she wants
to improve she'll practice. She's also very cyclical with her
interests. She will imerse herself in something for hours for weeks
and then not touch it for awhile. That is just her learning
style. I trust her to let me know when she needs a break and she
trusts me to let her take one. It works out fine for us.
Kelly
PMB
As an alternate perspective, my mum made me "stick" to piano lessons
for 5 years after I decided I'd had enough with it, saying, "you have
a natural talent for it and you'll thank me for it when you're older".
I didn't. I haven't touched the piano since my last lesson (over 30
years ago) and I never will. I even dislike hearing piano music now.
No thanks or good lessons learned here! :)
Pat
for 5 years after I decided I'd had enough with it, saying, "you have
a natural talent for it and you'll thank me for it when you're older".
I didn't. I haven't touched the piano since my last lesson (over 30
years ago) and I never will. I even dislike hearing piano music now.
No thanks or good lessons learned here! :)
Pat
> Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made tocontinue
> with things you don't necessarily like because you might like themonce you
> get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued.How else
> do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have todo things
> we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as achild
> otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
ON the other hand, sometimes a kid is truly just DONE with an activity
and ready to give it up. We have to know when to accept that they have
gotten out of it what they needed/wanted and are truly ready to move
on. It is so great to make it a "moving on" rather than a "quitting"
kind of experience. I learned to love when that happens - but it can
be a little bittersweet for the parent -- we can become vested in our
kids' activities and we can be disappointed in them when they don't
achieve certain goals. When a kid doesn't want to continue something,
we often look at what they are NOT achieving rather than what they
have learned.
-=-=-=-=-=-
That was very hard for me at first.
*I* had a hard time letting go of my son's passions. I got myself---no,
I GET myself <g>---quite worked up about what he's into. It's often
hard for me to watch him move on. And he's had such interesting (to me)
passions.
I still miss them. <g> It's...I don't know...maybe nostalgia?...that
makes me cling to them?
I wasn't that way as a child. I stuck with the horses and dogs all
through my childhood and into adulthood. And I used to get pissy about
how my brother flitted from one thing to another---and how much that
must've cost my parents to be funding a whole new sport or activity or
whatever for him every few months.
But now that I'm older (and Daaaddy's not paying for those horses!
<g>), I tend to immerse myself for a while in something and then move
on. Go figure! <g>
I don't *like* to do the same thing day after day after week after
month after year. I get tired of the same ol' same ol'. I'll do it a
LOT and then fade away to do something else just as passionately.
So, although I *understand* the tenacity part, I've also learned to
understand the letting go part for me and for my children.
We've joked that Cameron's diverse interests may one day all converge
into this mega-profession-job-thingy---like:
writing/producing/directing a film about skateboarders cooking a
gourmet vegetarian meal---complete with magical special effects and a
drumming soundtrack. <BWG> Oh---but now it would have to be in the
backcountry of Alaska! <BWG>
I miss *all* of those passion---even the skateboarding! <g> But they
all combine to make a *very* interesting person. He wouldn't be Who He
Is Now without immersing himself into all those things.
Oh---and the PEOPLE he's met while doing each one---and the PLACES he's
been! Each passion has contributed so much to his life (and ours!).
He's so much more....complex! with all these parts of him!
Start stuff. Quit stuff. Pick old stuff back up. It's all good. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
ON the other hand, sometimes a kid is truly just DONE with an activity
and ready to give it up. We have to know when to accept that they have
gotten out of it what they needed/wanted and are truly ready to move
on. It is so great to make it a "moving on" rather than a "quitting"
kind of experience. I learned to love when that happens - but it can
be a little bittersweet for the parent -- we can become vested in our
kids' activities and we can be disappointed in them when they don't
achieve certain goals. When a kid doesn't want to continue something,
we often look at what they are NOT achieving rather than what they
have learned.
-=-=-=-=-=-
That was very hard for me at first.
*I* had a hard time letting go of my son's passions. I got myself---no,
I GET myself <g>---quite worked up about what he's into. It's often
hard for me to watch him move on. And he's had such interesting (to me)
passions.
I still miss them. <g> It's...I don't know...maybe nostalgia?...that
makes me cling to them?
I wasn't that way as a child. I stuck with the horses and dogs all
through my childhood and into adulthood. And I used to get pissy about
how my brother flitted from one thing to another---and how much that
must've cost my parents to be funding a whole new sport or activity or
whatever for him every few months.
But now that I'm older (and Daaaddy's not paying for those horses!
<g>), I tend to immerse myself for a while in something and then move
on. Go figure! <g>
I don't *like* to do the same thing day after day after week after
month after year. I get tired of the same ol' same ol'. I'll do it a
LOT and then fade away to do something else just as passionately.
So, although I *understand* the tenacity part, I've also learned to
understand the letting go part for me and for my children.
We've joked that Cameron's diverse interests may one day all converge
into this mega-profession-job-thingy---like:
writing/producing/directing a film about skateboarders cooking a
gourmet vegetarian meal---complete with magical special effects and a
drumming soundtrack. <BWG> Oh---but now it would have to be in the
backcountry of Alaska! <BWG>
I miss *all* of those passion---even the skateboarding! <g> But they
all combine to make a *very* interesting person. He wouldn't be Who He
Is Now without immersing himself into all those things.
Oh---and the PEOPLE he's met while doing each one---and the PLACES he's
been! Each passion has contributed so much to his life (and ours!).
He's so much more....complex! with all these parts of him!
Start stuff. Quit stuff. Pick old stuff back up. It's all good. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Shannon <dragteine76@...>
My son also wants me to add says that sometime kids try stuff that looks
really cool to do but once you try it - it just isn't so cool. He has
tried
a lot of stuff in his short life though not nearly everything he wants
to -
one can only fit so much into one year. I also try to do things a
cheaply as
possible like this year he wants to try martial arts and bow and arrow.
I am
still looking for a good martial arts class but there is a kid friendly
archery group that meets on Sundays and has equipment he can borrow.
We find our passion by trying lots of things!
-=-=-=-=-
YES!
Too often parents force a child to stay with what he chooses only to
find that eventually he doesn't want to try *anything* any more.
It's safer to simply avoid *all* new things because he knows he'll be
made to "stick it out"---even if he doesn't like it.
Childhood should be about exploring new things. Well, so should
adulthood. <g> But at least as adults we don't have a parent making us
practice whether we want to or not! <G>
Piano lessons (and the crap that surrounds them) have turned more
children off to music than anything I can think of. At six, there
wasn't anything I wanted more (except maybe a pony! <g>) than piano
lessons. By eight, there wasn't anything I wanted LESS! But those piano
lessons with Miss Hannah "cured" me of ever wanting to play an
instrument. At 48 (next month), I'm just now exploring maybe learning
to play *something*.
Not having an attachment to our children's choices---be it financial
and/or emotional---*helps* our children explore their worlds.
The "stickability" the grandmother worries about is probably apparent
in other things the grandchild does. It's just that society has this
"thing" about quitting anything *it* deems "good for you."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
From: Shannon <dragteine76@...>
My son also wants me to add says that sometime kids try stuff that looks
really cool to do but once you try it - it just isn't so cool. He has
tried
a lot of stuff in his short life though not nearly everything he wants
to -
one can only fit so much into one year. I also try to do things a
cheaply as
possible like this year he wants to try martial arts and bow and arrow.
I am
still looking for a good martial arts class but there is a kid friendly
archery group that meets on Sundays and has equipment he can borrow.
We find our passion by trying lots of things!
-=-=-=-=-
YES!
Too often parents force a child to stay with what he chooses only to
find that eventually he doesn't want to try *anything* any more.
It's safer to simply avoid *all* new things because he knows he'll be
made to "stick it out"---even if he doesn't like it.
Childhood should be about exploring new things. Well, so should
adulthood. <g> But at least as adults we don't have a parent making us
practice whether we want to or not! <G>
Piano lessons (and the crap that surrounds them) have turned more
children off to music than anything I can think of. At six, there
wasn't anything I wanted more (except maybe a pony! <g>) than piano
lessons. By eight, there wasn't anything I wanted LESS! But those piano
lessons with Miss Hannah "cured" me of ever wanting to play an
instrument. At 48 (next month), I'm just now exploring maybe learning
to play *something*.
Not having an attachment to our children's choices---be it financial
and/or emotional---*helps* our children explore their worlds.
The "stickability" the grandmother worries about is probably apparent
in other things the grandchild does. It's just that society has this
"thing" about quitting anything *it* deems "good for you."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Sahara
I have an alternative to the alternative perspective. :) My mom is a piano teacher. She has a very different way about teaching and retaining students that really sets her apart from the rest. She tends to retain students because the adults and children love her. She has stickability of her own. Why?
First, because she individualizes each lesson to the student. She uses a basic set of lesson books and then they get to pick all types of other music from rock to Disney themes, whatever they are into. And she individualizes the way she explains things to them. A funny example, one little girl got to have a big R and L on her hands written in lip liner pencil. My mom didn't bat an eyelash that at 4 years old she hadn't learned Left and Right yet, she came up with a creative way to help the girl, who was tickled and happy about the big red letters on her hands. A piano teacher from the old school might have taken a much harsher approach with the whole thing, instead she took a light hearted approach. One little boy was a huge Billy Joel fan and my mom got him tons of Easy Piano Billy Joel songs. (my piano/voice teacher only gave me songs from old-fashioned musicals... boring!)
Second, her parents often moan about their kids not practicing. Most of them are very mainstream traditional types who don't really seem to get it unfortunately, and tie things like video game time to practice time. She tells them don't "send your kids in to practice a set time each day" instead when the mood strikes both of you, go make music together. Thats what its all about, music is emotion, happiness, celebration. Take interest in the cool things the child has learned. It should be a together family time. Its a very unschooly way to look at it so its probably why they don't get it, but I think it sticks with some of them. If the kids come "unprepared" to the lesson, who cares? They can play the songs some more at the lesson. She's never punitive or cranky with them.
This whole family-centered and lighthearted approach to music study makes the kids want to play for themselves. I recently read the older book Between Parent and Child by Haim Ginott *thanks for lending it Ginger! :) * and Dr. Ginott's chapter on music lessons is right on. He explains music is for expressing emotion. Making it drill and rote is no way to foster the love of making music. Read it, its good.
Punitive and cranky piano teachers should be boycotted. Don't stick yourselves to them. If kids are interested in making music, find a good teacher (it might take a few tries) and take the right approach at home and kids can learn to play in the same unschooly way they learn math and history etc.
-Sahara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First, because she individualizes each lesson to the student. She uses a basic set of lesson books and then they get to pick all types of other music from rock to Disney themes, whatever they are into. And she individualizes the way she explains things to them. A funny example, one little girl got to have a big R and L on her hands written in lip liner pencil. My mom didn't bat an eyelash that at 4 years old she hadn't learned Left and Right yet, she came up with a creative way to help the girl, who was tickled and happy about the big red letters on her hands. A piano teacher from the old school might have taken a much harsher approach with the whole thing, instead she took a light hearted approach. One little boy was a huge Billy Joel fan and my mom got him tons of Easy Piano Billy Joel songs. (my piano/voice teacher only gave me songs from old-fashioned musicals... boring!)
Second, her parents often moan about their kids not practicing. Most of them are very mainstream traditional types who don't really seem to get it unfortunately, and tie things like video game time to practice time. She tells them don't "send your kids in to practice a set time each day" instead when the mood strikes both of you, go make music together. Thats what its all about, music is emotion, happiness, celebration. Take interest in the cool things the child has learned. It should be a together family time. Its a very unschooly way to look at it so its probably why they don't get it, but I think it sticks with some of them. If the kids come "unprepared" to the lesson, who cares? They can play the songs some more at the lesson. She's never punitive or cranky with them.
This whole family-centered and lighthearted approach to music study makes the kids want to play for themselves. I recently read the older book Between Parent and Child by Haim Ginott *thanks for lending it Ginger! :) * and Dr. Ginott's chapter on music lessons is right on. He explains music is for expressing emotion. Making it drill and rote is no way to foster the love of making music. Read it, its good.
Punitive and cranky piano teachers should be boycotted. Don't stick yourselves to them. If kids are interested in making music, find a good teacher (it might take a few tries) and take the right approach at home and kids can learn to play in the same unschooly way they learn math and history etc.
-Sahara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: The Patersons <tuipiri@...>
Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to
continue
with things you don't necessarily like because you might like them once
you
get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued. How
else
do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have to do
things
we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as a
child
otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
-=-=-=-=-
I don't have to do things I don't like in life. It's a CHOICE.
I do all sorts of unpleasant things because I CHOOSE to. I could choose
not to, but I'd get to live with those consequences. I do LOTS of
pleasant things. <g>
Sooo, I should have learned to play the guitar as a child? Or change a
spark plug? Or ski? If I had done those things, I might *now* be able
to achieve something as an adult????
I achieve plenty without having to do lots as a child. I have
UNschooled children who aren't made to do things they don't like, and
yet they have accomplished LOTS---and they aren't even adults *yet*! <g>
Your mom is repeating something she's heard all her life. Something
I've heard most of mine. But it's not true.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
From: The Patersons <tuipiri@...>
Anyway, my mum has the very strong idea that you should be made to
continue
with things you don't necessarily like because you might like them once
you
get better at them, and you might be very happy that you continued. How
else
do you learn "stickability" she argues. "After all, we all have to do
things
we don't like in life, so you might as well learn how to do it as a
child
otherwise you won't be able to achieve anything as an adult."
-=-=-=-=-
I don't have to do things I don't like in life. It's a CHOICE.
I do all sorts of unpleasant things because I CHOOSE to. I could choose
not to, but I'd get to live with those consequences. I do LOTS of
pleasant things. <g>
Sooo, I should have learned to play the guitar as a child? Or change a
spark plug? Or ski? If I had done those things, I might *now* be able
to achieve something as an adult????
I achieve plenty without having to do lots as a child. I have
UNschooled children who aren't made to do things they don't like, and
yet they have accomplished LOTS---and they aren't even adults *yet*! <g>
Your mom is repeating something she's heard all her life. Something
I've heard most of mine. But it's not true.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
trovesoftrilliums
Part of the appeal of unschooling to me is actually the freedom NOT TO
stick with something just because some outside force (society) thinks
we should.
DH stuck with a job for years longer than he should have because he
felt it was the right thing to do. This took a huge toll on his
physical and mental health. We all had to overcome some fears and
uncertainties just to change from that bad situation.
The ability to recognize unhealthy situations and having the courage to
break away from them are worthwhile skills in my opinion. =)
stick with something just because some outside force (society) thinks
we should.
DH stuck with a job for years longer than he should have because he
felt it was the right thing to do. This took a huge toll on his
physical and mental health. We all had to overcome some fears and
uncertainties just to change from that bad situation.
The ability to recognize unhealthy situations and having the courage to
break away from them are worthwhile skills in my opinion. =)
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 29, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Sahara wrote:
ability to think more from kids' points of view.
So - where IS your mother because I have two kids who are interested
in having some piano lessons.
-pam
> I recently read the older book Between Parent and Child by HaimYes - I really got a LOT out of that book. Helped me develop my
> Ginott *thanks for lending it Ginger! :) * and Dr. Ginott's chapter
> on music lessons is right on. He explains music is for expressing
> emotion. Making it drill and rote is no way to foster the love of
> making music.
ability to think more from kids' points of view.
So - where IS your mother because I have two kids who are interested
in having some piano lessons.
-pam
diana jenner
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Shannon <dragteine76@...> wrote:
modifications available. Heck even people who CAN walk don't necessarily
*have to* in order to survive.
Cooking? There are restaurants for that. For less money, you can buy frozen
meals and warm them up. For more money, one can have a personal chef!
Clean? Services for pay available, as is the option of having fewer things =
fewer things to clean up
Read? not necessarily... my phone can *read* my text messages to me and the
computer can do the same...
Write? again, in a world of typing, there is less and less need for actual
handwriting.
Balance a checkbook? Checking accounts are not even necessary to survive.
And with online banking (& quicken) balancing is a thing of the past...
Plus, you can always pair up with a partner who loves to do the things you
don't (i.e. I don't cook, my husband loved it!; I'm not neat and organized,
my current partner is)....
Anything you do should better your ability to Enjoy Life -- what else is it
for?????
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There are some thing you to survive. walk. cook. clean. read. write.None of that is true. Lots of people who don't walk survive, we have
> balance
> a check book. and there are some things we learn to enjoy life.
>
>
>
>
modifications available. Heck even people who CAN walk don't necessarily
*have to* in order to survive.
Cooking? There are restaurants for that. For less money, you can buy frozen
meals and warm them up. For more money, one can have a personal chef!
Clean? Services for pay available, as is the option of having fewer things =
fewer things to clean up
Read? not necessarily... my phone can *read* my text messages to me and the
computer can do the same...
Write? again, in a world of typing, there is less and less need for actual
handwriting.
Balance a checkbook? Checking accounts are not even necessary to survive.
And with online banking (& quicken) balancing is a thing of the past...
Plus, you can always pair up with a partner who loves to do the things you
don't (i.e. I don't cook, my husband loved it!; I'm not neat and organized,
my current partner is)....
Anything you do should better your ability to Enjoy Life -- what else is it
for?????
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
Yes, they might. My son on the other hand usually needs lots of support
when he is ready to quit! He keeps doing it even though he is feeling
unhappy and we talk it through over and over until he feels clear and ok
with quitting. Part of this is finding the right words to tell the
person, part of it is just being sure- if I quit will I regret it?
Heather
Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
when he is ready to quit! He keeps doing it even though he is feeling
unhappy and we talk it through over and over until he feels clear and ok
with quitting. Part of this is finding the right words to tell the
person, part of it is just being sure- if I quit will I regret it?
Heather
Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
>
>
>
> In other words, kids DO sometimes need support for sticking to
> something. We have to judge how to support that in our child - each is
> different and each situation is also different.
>
>