needing time for myself
[email protected]
I got an offlist response to a post I wrote. The mom was upset that I
wasn't as supportive as some of the other responders.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic or empathetic. I have different goals.
Personally, I don't want or need support when I'm having trouble. *I*
need a solution. So I generally don't give "support." To me "support"
is kind of like a crutch, but I don't *want* to limp along any longer.
I want to figure out how to run. Tell me HOW---don't help me avoid
walking.
Here is my off-list answer, now onlist.
-=-=-=-
Yeah---I replied to my reply. I didn't think it sounded very
sympathetic myself. And I HAVE been there.
Having others give creative ways to get through it is good.
But understanding that you get to CHOOSE how to react is very, very
important.
He's VERY little. He has even fewer tools in his emotional toolbox. It
is up to you, his mother, to get over what bothers you to help *him*
through.
When I went through it, I didn't post; but I read others' posts to
similar questions/concerns. What helped *me* the most was realizing
that *I* needed to change *my* perspective. That was the only thing
that helped me---and what continues to! I can *choose* to get pissed
off or upset or overwhelmed---OR I can choose to understand that he's
still really little and that he's doing the best he can (*I* don't get
that luxury! <g>). *I* know that *I* can do better---just by telling
myself to breathe and BE better.
All that "creative support" is great, but it doesn't change you or your
reactions---only *you* can do that. BE the mom he wishes you to be.
I'm not beating you up. I'm giving you what worked for *me*. Take it or
leave it.
You don't need to be beating yourself up. You need to be changing how
you view your relationship. It *can* be better. It's up to you.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
wasn't as supportive as some of the other responders.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic or empathetic. I have different goals.
Personally, I don't want or need support when I'm having trouble. *I*
need a solution. So I generally don't give "support." To me "support"
is kind of like a crutch, but I don't *want* to limp along any longer.
I want to figure out how to run. Tell me HOW---don't help me avoid
walking.
Here is my off-list answer, now onlist.
-=-=-=-
Yeah---I replied to my reply. I didn't think it sounded very
sympathetic myself. And I HAVE been there.
Having others give creative ways to get through it is good.
But understanding that you get to CHOOSE how to react is very, very
important.
He's VERY little. He has even fewer tools in his emotional toolbox. It
is up to you, his mother, to get over what bothers you to help *him*
through.
When I went through it, I didn't post; but I read others' posts to
similar questions/concerns. What helped *me* the most was realizing
that *I* needed to change *my* perspective. That was the only thing
that helped me---and what continues to! I can *choose* to get pissed
off or upset or overwhelmed---OR I can choose to understand that he's
still really little and that he's doing the best he can (*I* don't get
that luxury! <g>). *I* know that *I* can do better---just by telling
myself to breathe and BE better.
All that "creative support" is great, but it doesn't change you or your
reactions---only *you* can do that. BE the mom he wishes you to be.
I'm not beating you up. I'm giving you what worked for *me*. Take it or
leave it.
You don't need to be beating yourself up. You need to be changing how
you view your relationship. It *can* be better. It's up to you.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I have talked to Kelly on the phone when "I" needed a kick on the butt!
She is awesome and "supportive" .
One of the things that she always reminds me is that we don't know how much time we have with our children
and that we should treat them like there was no tomorrow ( not with the fear but all the love and understanding)
There has been parents in this group and other groups that have lost their child.
So I know when Kelly gives "advice" she always thinks about those that have lost a son or a daughter.
Another saying that I like is:
"The truth will set you free
but first it will piss you off"
Sometimes we get caught up feeling bad about ourselves ans we forget to see what is more important: our children.
Love to all,
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: "kbcdlovejo@..." <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 3:15:15 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] needing time for myself
I got an offlist response to a post I wrote. The mom was upset that I
wasn't as supportive as some of the other responders.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic or empathetic. I have different goals.
Personally, I don't want or need support when I'm having trouble. *I*
need a solution. So I generally don't give "support." To me "support"
is kind of like a crutch, but I don't *want* to limp along any longer.
I want to figure out how to run. Tell me HOW---don't help me avoid
walking.
Here is my off-list answer, now onlist.
-=-=-=-
Yeah---I replied to my reply. I didn't think it sounded very
sympathetic myself. And I HAVE been there.
Having others give creative ways to get through it is good.
But understanding that you get to CHOOSE how to react is very, very
important.
He's VERY little. He has even fewer tools in his emotional toolbox. It
is up to you, his mother, to get over what bothers you to help *him*
through.
When I went through it, I didn't post; but I read others' posts to
similar questions/concerns. What helped *me* the most was realizing
that *I* needed to change *my* perspective. That was the only thing
that helped me---and what continues to! I can *choose* to get pissed
off or upset or overwhelmed- --OR I can choose to understand that he's
still really little and that he's doing the best he can (*I* don't get
that luxury! <g>). *I* know that *I* can do better---just by telling
myself to breathe and BE better.
All that "creative support" is great, but it doesn't change you or your
reactions--- only *you* can do that. BE the mom he wishes you to be.
I'm not beating you up. I'm giving you what worked for *me*. Take it or
leave it.
You don't need to be beating yourself up. You need to be changing how
you view your relationship. It *can* be better. It's up to you.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandL earnConference. org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She is awesome and "supportive" .
One of the things that she always reminds me is that we don't know how much time we have with our children
and that we should treat them like there was no tomorrow ( not with the fear but all the love and understanding)
There has been parents in this group and other groups that have lost their child.
So I know when Kelly gives "advice" she always thinks about those that have lost a son or a daughter.
Another saying that I like is:
"The truth will set you free
but first it will piss you off"
Sometimes we get caught up feeling bad about ourselves ans we forget to see what is more important: our children.
Love to all,
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: "kbcdlovejo@..." <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 3:15:15 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] needing time for myself
I got an offlist response to a post I wrote. The mom was upset that I
wasn't as supportive as some of the other responders.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic or empathetic. I have different goals.
Personally, I don't want or need support when I'm having trouble. *I*
need a solution. So I generally don't give "support." To me "support"
is kind of like a crutch, but I don't *want* to limp along any longer.
I want to figure out how to run. Tell me HOW---don't help me avoid
walking.
Here is my off-list answer, now onlist.
-=-=-=-
Yeah---I replied to my reply. I didn't think it sounded very
sympathetic myself. And I HAVE been there.
Having others give creative ways to get through it is good.
But understanding that you get to CHOOSE how to react is very, very
important.
He's VERY little. He has even fewer tools in his emotional toolbox. It
is up to you, his mother, to get over what bothers you to help *him*
through.
When I went through it, I didn't post; but I read others' posts to
similar questions/concerns. What helped *me* the most was realizing
that *I* needed to change *my* perspective. That was the only thing
that helped me---and what continues to! I can *choose* to get pissed
off or upset or overwhelmed- --OR I can choose to understand that he's
still really little and that he's doing the best he can (*I* don't get
that luxury! <g>). *I* know that *I* can do better---just by telling
myself to breathe and BE better.
All that "creative support" is great, but it doesn't change you or your
reactions--- only *you* can do that. BE the mom he wishes you to be.
I'm not beating you up. I'm giving you what worked for *me*. Take it or
leave it.
You don't need to be beating yourself up. You need to be changing how
you view your relationship. It *can* be better. It's up to you.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandL earnConference. org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Another saying that I like is:
"The truth will set you free
but first it will piss you off"
-=-=-=-=-
I have THAT bumper sticker too!
On my car....really. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Another saying that I like is:
"The truth will set you free
but first it will piss you off"
-=-=-=-=-
I have THAT bumper sticker too!
On my car....really. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
carenkh
I need to say - this list was the *first* place I read, that rather
than trying to find a creative way to find my ME time, if I worked on
being CLOSER with my kids, that need wouldn't be as strong. That was
revolutionary! I had just believed for such a long time - I'm an
introvert, I MUST have alone time - that I didn't even have room for a
different possibility. Until I read something here, and my eyes were
opened.
I don't even like to say something like that in non-unschooling
circles, because I think it would be seen as Mom totally giving up her
needs for her kids, making this huge sacrifice, being a Stepford mom
instead of a "complete person". It's not like that at all. It's about
recognizing: I am the adult here. I chose to bring these children into
the world (even unplanned! I made that choice). It is time for me to
step up *as a grown-up* and be there FOR my kids.
I know you can read in so many places: You have to put your own oxygen
mask on first. You have to take care of your own needs, to be present
for your kids' needs. There is truth in that - but there's also truth
in getting real about what constitutes a *need*. I would have sworn I
*needed* alone time - and I do cherish that! But since my perspective
change... not so much. I have a choice today.
I wish I could remember the thread where I read the thing that "opened
my eyes" - or even what it said - but it was something along the lines
of, opening up to my kids, bringing them closer, made that need to be
alone less strong.
It's scary to be that vulnerable! As has been pointed out - we don't
know what might happen! How can I completely open my heart to this
other person? But the gifts of doing that outweigh the scariness,
believe me.
peace,
Caren
than trying to find a creative way to find my ME time, if I worked on
being CLOSER with my kids, that need wouldn't be as strong. That was
revolutionary! I had just believed for such a long time - I'm an
introvert, I MUST have alone time - that I didn't even have room for a
different possibility. Until I read something here, and my eyes were
opened.
I don't even like to say something like that in non-unschooling
circles, because I think it would be seen as Mom totally giving up her
needs for her kids, making this huge sacrifice, being a Stepford mom
instead of a "complete person". It's not like that at all. It's about
recognizing: I am the adult here. I chose to bring these children into
the world (even unplanned! I made that choice). It is time for me to
step up *as a grown-up* and be there FOR my kids.
I know you can read in so many places: You have to put your own oxygen
mask on first. You have to take care of your own needs, to be present
for your kids' needs. There is truth in that - but there's also truth
in getting real about what constitutes a *need*. I would have sworn I
*needed* alone time - and I do cherish that! But since my perspective
change... not so much. I have a choice today.
I wish I could remember the thread where I read the thing that "opened
my eyes" - or even what it said - but it was something along the lines
of, opening up to my kids, bringing them closer, made that need to be
alone less strong.
It's scary to be that vulnerable! As has been pointed out - we don't
know what might happen! How can I completely open my heart to this
other person? But the gifts of doing that outweigh the scariness,
believe me.
peace,
Caren
Beth Fleming
YES! And I feel that when I'm needing time away, time to myself...at least a few minutes, if I hang on to the kids and GIVE, it's a lot more of a boost than the supposed refreshment of the time away. They feel good, I feel good...and then I can breathe happily (and sometimes alone!) for a minute and it's much better than feeling resentlful that I can't get the time by myself that I thought that I needed. ( However, we're surrounded by people and families who really believe the opposite and it can have an effect on us.)
Case in point: a few nights ago, we were having (impromptu!) dinner guests. 11 yo dd and 9 yo ds had made banana bread earlier in the day. Their work space was a mess!... and I felt like I needed 15 minutes by myself to get things together in the kitchen....as I came into the kitchen and saw the table with their happy results from the baking session, I started cleaning it up and have to confess, I wasn't all that happy about it! A minute later, my son came in, followed by my daughter. I said, "Wow, you guys made a..." ("Mess" was on the tip of my tongue!, but I decided against it.) "....a really beautiful loaf of banana bread. It smells heavenly!" They both beamed, got some sponges and helped me for ten minutes.....I wasn't alone, I was being helped by some great, helpful kids who knew that their banana bread was going to be the best part of our dinner for guests....And the job was done. The rest of the night was happy and
peaceful...all because of how I decided to react to a situation.
Thanks to this list and really taking others' posts to heart, I think my perspective has changed. It's been slower than I wanted, but it's there.
----- Original Message ----
From: carenkh <carenkh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:32:03 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needing time for myself
I need to say - this list was the *first* place I read, that rather
than trying to find a creative way to find my ME time, if I worked on
being CLOSER with my kids, that need wouldn't be as strong. That was
revolutionary! I had just believed for such a long time - I'm an
introvert, I MUST have alone time - that I didn't even have room for a
different possibility. Until I read something here, and my eyes were
opened.
I don't even like to say something like that in non-unschooling
circles, because I think it would be seen as Mom totally giving up her
needs for her kids, making this huge sacrifice, being a Stepford mom
instead of a "complete person". It's not like that at all. It's about
recognizing: I am the adult here. I chose to bring these children into
the world (even unplanned! I made that choice). It is time for me to
step up *as a grown-up* and be there FOR my kids.
I know you can read in so many places: You have to put your own oxygen
mask on first. You have to take care of your own needs, to be present
for your kids' needs. There is truth in that - but there's also truth
in getting real about what constitutes a *need*. I would have sworn I
*needed* alone time - and I do cherish that! But since my perspective
change... not so much. I have a choice today.
I wish I could remember the thread where I read the thing that "opened
my eyes" - or even what it said - but it was something along the lines
of, opening up to my kids, bringing them closer, made that need to be
alone less strong.
It's scary to be that vulnerable! As has been pointed out - we don't
know what might happen! How can I completely open my heart to this
other person? But the gifts of doing that outweigh the scariness,
believe me.
peace,
Caren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tammy Brock
>I don't even like to say something like that in non-unschooling circles,because I think it would be seen as Mom totally giving up her needs for her
kids, making this >huge sacrifice, being a Stepford mom instead of a
"complete person".
I didn't even have to say it. Not too long ago my MIL brought this up to me
being concerned that I would have a hard time once my children were out of
the house. I almost blurted out laughing because its not like that at all. I
am a more complete person because of having my kids and what they have shown
me. I am learning and continuing to grow everyday and that won't stop when
my kids are grown.
> It's not like that at all. It's about recognizing: I am the adult here. Ichose to bring these children into the world (even unplanned! I made that
choice). It is time for >me to step up *as a grown-up* and be there FOR my
kids.
I love how you put that. You had said you got this perspective from
unschooling I got it from going to La Leche League meetings and I am so glad
I did.
Tammy,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
[Kelly]
I got an offlist response to a post I wrote. The mom was upset that I wasn't as supportive as some of the other responders.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic or empathetic. I have different goals.
****
And some of us count on you for that, Kelly. I post here -- when I know I'm the problem, when I can see I need to shift my paradigm and just can't seem to get past my own whining to do it. When I need someone to remind me it's essential that become the Mom I want to be BEFORE my kids are grown and gone.
I post here expecting that kick in the pants -- and I'm always grateful when you or Ren provide it. <g>
Sylvia
OurHapaHome blog
365 blog
my blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I got an offlist response to a post I wrote. The mom was upset that I wasn't as supportive as some of the other responders.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic or empathetic. I have different goals.
****
And some of us count on you for that, Kelly. I post here -- when I know I'm the problem, when I can see I need to shift my paradigm and just can't seem to get past my own whining to do it. When I need someone to remind me it's essential that become the Mom I want to be BEFORE my kids are grown and gone.
I post here expecting that kick in the pants -- and I'm always grateful when you or Ren provide it. <g>
Sylvia
OurHapaHome blog
365 blog
my blog
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carenkh
--- In [email protected], "Tammy Brock" <tammy@...> wrote:
I *did* get it from La Leche League! Then... didn't... as Evan got
older and my LLL friends all got very conventional in their parenting
choices. I knew in my gut I didn't want to do it that way, but
honestly didn't trust myself or have the support around me to do
things differently. So I was lost (for lack of a better word) for a
few years, 'til I found unschooling. Evan went to school, even though
it felt like a crazy, crazy place to send an interested, sweet, fully
alive 6-year-old. *sniff*
I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for how to
live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
So, so grateful to have found RU.
I'm actually speaking about our journey at a conference here in NC!
Not Live and Learn, but Love to Learn, an inclusive secular conference.
http://www.lovetolearnconference.com/
Nice to meet you, Tammy!
Caren
> I love how you put that. You had said you got this perspective fromso glad
> unschooling I got it from going to La Leche League meetings and I am
> I did.Well - ya know...
I *did* get it from La Leche League! Then... didn't... as Evan got
older and my LLL friends all got very conventional in their parenting
choices. I knew in my gut I didn't want to do it that way, but
honestly didn't trust myself or have the support around me to do
things differently. So I was lost (for lack of a better word) for a
few years, 'til I found unschooling. Evan went to school, even though
it felt like a crazy, crazy place to send an interested, sweet, fully
alive 6-year-old. *sniff*
I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for how to
live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
So, so grateful to have found RU.
I'm actually speaking about our journey at a conference here in NC!
Not Live and Learn, but Love to Learn, an inclusive secular conference.
http://www.lovetolearnconference.com/
Nice to meet you, Tammy!
Caren
[email protected]
**I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for how to
live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
So, so grateful to have found RU.**
In my experience, women who identify themselves as "attachment parents" when
their children are born often become some of the most controlling people on
the face of the earth shortly after the toddler stage starts. They identify
attachment parenting with controlling every mouthful of food that goes into their
child, with controlling toys and media, with ensuring their child is
practically perfect in every way. In the name of AP they drive wedges between
themselves and their children, totally oblivious to the contradiction.
I'm sadly watching a discussion on a local AP International yahoo group about
getting rid of tv. One mom wrote "We just got rid of expanded cable when
dh lost his job .. just have basic now and I will soon be getting rid of that
when I can get an antenna. (Son) literally cried because Nickolodian was
gone. He was so mad at me. I guess all the more reason to get rid of it. He was
obviously addicted. I was not liking the shows that he was watching or his
prefernce to sit in watch them over anything else. So, we got rid of that and
his beloved Nintendo DS that grandma (so loveingly.... grrr.. ) bought for
him. I think it was a very wise move.. and a good motivator for dh to find a
job! (Son) doesn't really miss either now."
I'd cry if someone got rid of my books without asking me or a present someone
had given me, and I have the resources to replace them for myself. (I can
understand the need to cut expenses because of a job loss, it's the celebrating
it as good BECAUSE the child was so unhappy that just throws me for a loop.)
Anyway.
Deborah in IL
**************
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign
up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
So, so grateful to have found RU.**
In my experience, women who identify themselves as "attachment parents" when
their children are born often become some of the most controlling people on
the face of the earth shortly after the toddler stage starts. They identify
attachment parenting with controlling every mouthful of food that goes into their
child, with controlling toys and media, with ensuring their child is
practically perfect in every way. In the name of AP they drive wedges between
themselves and their children, totally oblivious to the contradiction.
I'm sadly watching a discussion on a local AP International yahoo group about
getting rid of tv. One mom wrote "We just got rid of expanded cable when
dh lost his job .. just have basic now and I will soon be getting rid of that
when I can get an antenna. (Son) literally cried because Nickolodian was
gone. He was so mad at me. I guess all the more reason to get rid of it. He was
obviously addicted. I was not liking the shows that he was watching or his
prefernce to sit in watch them over anything else. So, we got rid of that and
his beloved Nintendo DS that grandma (so loveingly.... grrr.. ) bought for
him. I think it was a very wise move.. and a good motivator for dh to find a
job! (Son) doesn't really miss either now."
I'd cry if someone got rid of my books without asking me or a present someone
had given me, and I have the resources to replace them for myself. (I can
understand the need to cut expenses because of a job loss, it's the celebrating
it as good BECAUSE the child was so unhappy that just throws me for a loop.)
Anyway.
Deborah in IL
**************
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign
up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
Yikes on the woman who wants to get rid of her TV because her son watches
it!!! I have a homeschooling friend who got rid of her TV earlier this year.
Apparently she was addicted to Lost or something like that and the only way
she could control her urge to watch was to get rid of her TV! (What the ???)
She was also of the opinion that it would be better for her son. Wow. If I
don't want to watch the TV, I turn mine off.
On the AP note, I'm in limbo because I can't quite find a local group I fit
with. We have an AP group that is pretty good sized and I try to make the
meetings (once a month) but it doesn't always work out. The leader is great
at getting discussions going online, but I had hoped to meet and make more
friends in person. I've been in the group for almost 3 years and the friends
I used to have don't go anymore and/or live too far from us. I'm discouraged
because at the last meeting I'm sure I had the oldest child there and he was
only 3.5 then! Where are the parents with older kids?! Now he is 4 and I'm
feeling less and less connected with the AP group because the meeting is so
full of babies. Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it's nice to
be there to support them, something I enjoy, but I had also hoped to find
friends who are on a similar life path with kids the same age as mine. Is
that too much to ask?? I guess we just need to plug into the unschooling
community now.
There is something else about the AP moms I couldn't quite put my finger on
but I think you just did. The older children are all in preschools now and
it's harder to meet up with them or even meet new people because moms with
preschool aged kids just don't go to the meetings anymore. It's almost like
they lost the attachment part of parenting. I know working moms can be
attached (it's harder!), I just wonder how the SAHMs justify sending a 2 yr
old off to school when the mom doesn't work. I guess it is the "normal"
thing to do. Fit into society.
I thought there was a natural migration from Attachment Parenting to
Unconditional Parenting to Unschooling! It all seems to follow the needs of
the child. So then why can't I find anyone in my AP group who is on this
path??? There is 1 (the AP leader actually) who is also on the UP board and
seems to be reading all the same books as me. ;) I'm not sure she will be
unschooling, but maybe we should talk. The only friend I have who is on the
unschooling path quit the AP group a long time ago. She is an LLL leader and
stuck more with that group. I have a feeling her and I could start our own
unschooling group pretty soon! (We live on the west side of town and most of
the unschooling stuff in town happens downtown or on the north or east
sides, nowhere near us.)
I also wonder about some women who are so into breastfeeding (something I
see as a way to connect with my child) and then as soon as the kid is
weaned, there is no connection (or they just don't put much time into their
relationship with their child after that, just an observation with a few
moms I know). They send them off to day care so they can go back to work. Or
like you said, they seem to try to control every aspect of the child's life.
Not all breastfed kids are attached! My own sister has 4 kids who were BF
(14mos up to 2 yrs, generally weaned when she was pregnant with the next
one) and they slept in bed next to her during that time, but now she sort of
ignores them and there are just 4 kids running around the house and they are
some of the wildest and most violent kids I know.
Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot. How to stay attached with my son as
he grows older. Also realizing our need to connect with other families who
are on a similar path. I need in person support. Most of my friends are
pretty mainstream and as much as I love them (and would love to influence
them to be more like me, haha!) it can be straining to hang out with them
and see how they treat their kids.
Kim Z
www.passitonsales.com
This email was sent on 100% recycled electrons.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12789513/grpspId=1705081972/msgI
d=34859/stime=1217265225/nc1=4025291/nc2=5286667/nc3=5191954>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it!!! I have a homeschooling friend who got rid of her TV earlier this year.
Apparently she was addicted to Lost or something like that and the only way
she could control her urge to watch was to get rid of her TV! (What the ???)
She was also of the opinion that it would be better for her son. Wow. If I
don't want to watch the TV, I turn mine off.
On the AP note, I'm in limbo because I can't quite find a local group I fit
with. We have an AP group that is pretty good sized and I try to make the
meetings (once a month) but it doesn't always work out. The leader is great
at getting discussions going online, but I had hoped to meet and make more
friends in person. I've been in the group for almost 3 years and the friends
I used to have don't go anymore and/or live too far from us. I'm discouraged
because at the last meeting I'm sure I had the oldest child there and he was
only 3.5 then! Where are the parents with older kids?! Now he is 4 and I'm
feeling less and less connected with the AP group because the meeting is so
full of babies. Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it's nice to
be there to support them, something I enjoy, but I had also hoped to find
friends who are on a similar life path with kids the same age as mine. Is
that too much to ask?? I guess we just need to plug into the unschooling
community now.
There is something else about the AP moms I couldn't quite put my finger on
but I think you just did. The older children are all in preschools now and
it's harder to meet up with them or even meet new people because moms with
preschool aged kids just don't go to the meetings anymore. It's almost like
they lost the attachment part of parenting. I know working moms can be
attached (it's harder!), I just wonder how the SAHMs justify sending a 2 yr
old off to school when the mom doesn't work. I guess it is the "normal"
thing to do. Fit into society.
I thought there was a natural migration from Attachment Parenting to
Unconditional Parenting to Unschooling! It all seems to follow the needs of
the child. So then why can't I find anyone in my AP group who is on this
path??? There is 1 (the AP leader actually) who is also on the UP board and
seems to be reading all the same books as me. ;) I'm not sure she will be
unschooling, but maybe we should talk. The only friend I have who is on the
unschooling path quit the AP group a long time ago. She is an LLL leader and
stuck more with that group. I have a feeling her and I could start our own
unschooling group pretty soon! (We live on the west side of town and most of
the unschooling stuff in town happens downtown or on the north or east
sides, nowhere near us.)
I also wonder about some women who are so into breastfeeding (something I
see as a way to connect with my child) and then as soon as the kid is
weaned, there is no connection (or they just don't put much time into their
relationship with their child after that, just an observation with a few
moms I know). They send them off to day care so they can go back to work. Or
like you said, they seem to try to control every aspect of the child's life.
Not all breastfed kids are attached! My own sister has 4 kids who were BF
(14mos up to 2 yrs, generally weaned when she was pregnant with the next
one) and they slept in bed next to her during that time, but now she sort of
ignores them and there are just 4 kids running around the house and they are
some of the wildest and most violent kids I know.
Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot. How to stay attached with my son as
he grows older. Also realizing our need to connect with other families who
are on a similar path. I need in person support. Most of my friends are
pretty mainstream and as much as I love them (and would love to influence
them to be more like me, haha!) it can be straining to hang out with them
and see how they treat their kids.
Kim Z
www.passitonsales.com
This email was sent on 100% recycled electrons.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12789513/grpspId=1705081972/msgI
d=34859/stime=1217265225/nc1=4025291/nc2=5286667/nc3=5191954>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I'm going to that. :)
~Katherine
~Katherine
> I'm actually speaking about our journey at a conference here in NC![Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Not Live and Learn, but Love to Learn, an inclusive secular conference.
> http://www.lovetolearnconference.com/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: k <katherand@...>
I'm going to that. :)
Me too! <g> See you there!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
From: k <katherand@...>
I'm going to that. :)
> I'm actually speaking about our journey at a conference here in NC!conference.
> Not Live and Learn, but Love to Learn, an inclusive secular
> http://www.lovetolearnconference.com/-=-=-=-=-
Me too! <g> See you there!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I have had the same experience here in my LLL and that is why I don't go to the meetings anymore.
I just cannot take all the controling. It makes me feel controled ARGH!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: "DACunefare@..." <DACunefare@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:11:58 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needing time for myself
**I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for how to
live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
So, so grateful to have found RU.**
In my experience, women who identify themselves as "attachment parents" when
their children are born often become some of the most controlling people on
the face of the earth shortly after the toddler stage starts. They identify
attachment parenting with controlling every mouthful of food that goes into their
child, with controlling toys and media, with ensuring their child is
practically perfect in every way. In the name of AP they drive wedges between
themselves and their children, totally oblivious to the contradiction.
I'm sadly watching a discussion on a local AP International yahoo group about
getting rid of tv. One mom wrote "We just got rid of expanded cable when
dh lost his job .. just have basic now and I will soon be getting rid of that
when I can get an antenna. (Son) literally cried because Nickolodian was
gone. He was so mad at me. I guess all the more reason to get rid of it. He was
obviously addicted. I was not liking the shows that he was watching or his
prefernce to sit in watch them over anything else. So, we got rid of that and
his beloved Nintendo DS that grandma (so loveingly... . grrr.. ) bought for
him. I think it was a very wise move.. and a good motivator for dh to find a
job! (Son) doesn't really miss either now."
I'd cry if someone got rid of my books without asking me or a present someone
had given me, and I have the resources to replace them for myself. (I can
understand the need to cut expenses because of a job loss, it's the celebrating
it as good BECAUSE the child was so unhappy that just throws me for a loop.)
Anyway.
Deborah in IL
************ **
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign
up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse .com/fantasyaffa ir?ncid=aolspr00 050000000020)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just cannot take all the controling. It makes me feel controled ARGH!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: "DACunefare@..." <DACunefare@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:11:58 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needing time for myself
**I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for how to
live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
So, so grateful to have found RU.**
In my experience, women who identify themselves as "attachment parents" when
their children are born often become some of the most controlling people on
the face of the earth shortly after the toddler stage starts. They identify
attachment parenting with controlling every mouthful of food that goes into their
child, with controlling toys and media, with ensuring their child is
practically perfect in every way. In the name of AP they drive wedges between
themselves and their children, totally oblivious to the contradiction.
I'm sadly watching a discussion on a local AP International yahoo group about
getting rid of tv. One mom wrote "We just got rid of expanded cable when
dh lost his job .. just have basic now and I will soon be getting rid of that
when I can get an antenna. (Son) literally cried because Nickolodian was
gone. He was so mad at me. I guess all the more reason to get rid of it. He was
obviously addicted. I was not liking the shows that he was watching or his
prefernce to sit in watch them over anything else. So, we got rid of that and
his beloved Nintendo DS that grandma (so loveingly... . grrr.. ) bought for
him. I think it was a very wise move.. and a good motivator for dh to find a
job! (Son) doesn't really miss either now."
I'd cry if someone got rid of my books without asking me or a present someone
had given me, and I have the resources to replace them for myself. (I can
understand the need to cut expenses because of a job loss, it's the celebrating
it as good BECAUSE the child was so unhappy that just throws me for a loop.)
Anyway.
Deborah in IL
************ **
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign
up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse .com/fantasyaffa ir?ncid=aolspr00 050000000020)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sahara
I agree about parents not embracing unschooling as easily as other attachment parenting off-shoots. In our local unschooling group however there have been tons of new babies and parents joining up! Its fun to have such a range of ages at the park. They seem to already understand you don't start unschooling at the school age, that it can start at birth. Wish I knew that (or much of anything about parenting really) 7 years ago! You're right that it might be time to join up with your local unschool park day.
Oh, and I am addicted to Lost (come quickly new Lost season, hurry up!!!) and I also had to downgrade to basic cable because of finances... but get rid of the TV? Never! ;-) Guess I'm not the yikes woman you speak of!
-Sahara
----- Original Message ----
From: Kim Zerbe <kim.zerbe@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:59:33 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] what's up with the AP moms? (was: needing time for myself)
Yikes on the woman who wants to get rid of her TV because her son watches
it!!! I have a homeschooling friend who got rid of her TV earlier this year.
Apparently she was addicted to Lost or something like that and the only way
she could control her urge to watch was to get rid of her TV! (What the ???)
She was also of the opinion that it would be better for her son. Wow. If I
don't want to watch the TV, I turn mine off.
On the AP note, I'm in limbo because I can't quite find a local group I fit
with. We have an AP group that is pretty good sized and I try to make the
meetings (once a month) but it doesn't always work out. The leader is great
at getting discussions going online, but I had hoped to meet and make more
friends in person. I've been in the group for almost 3 years and the friends
I used to have don't go anymore and/or live too far from us. I'm discouraged
because at the last meeting I'm sure I had the oldest child there and he was
only 3.5 then! Where are the parents with older kids?! Now he is 4 and I'm
feeling less and less connected with the AP group because the meeting is so
full of babies. Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it's nice to
be there to support them, something I enjoy, but I had also hoped to find
friends who are on a similar life path with kids the same age as mine. Is
that too much to ask?? I guess we just need to plug into the unschooling
community now.
There is something else about the AP moms I couldn't quite put my finger on
but I think you just did. The older children are all in preschools now and
it's harder to meet up with them or even meet new people because moms with
preschool aged kids just don't go to the meetings anymore. It's almost like
they lost the attachment part of parenting. I know working moms can be
attached (it's harder!), I just wonder how the SAHMs justify sending a 2 yr
old off to school when the mom doesn't work. I guess it is the "normal"
thing to do. Fit into society.
I thought there was a natural migration from Attachment Parenting to
Unconditional Parenting to Unschooling! It all seems to follow the needs of
the child. So then why can't I find anyone in my AP group who is on this
path??? There is 1 (the AP leader actually) who is also on the UP board and
seems to be reading all the same books as me. ;) I'm not sure she will be
unschooling, but maybe we should talk. The only friend I have who is on the
unschooling path quit the AP group a long time ago. She is an LLL leader and
stuck more with that group. I have a feeling her and I could start our own
unschooling group pretty soon! (We live on the west side of town and most of
the unschooling stuff in town happens downtown or on the north or east
sides, nowhere near us.)
I also wonder about some women who are so into breastfeeding (something I
see as a way to connect with my child) and then as soon as the kid is
weaned, there is no connection (or they just don't put much time into their
relationship with their child after that, just an observation with a few
moms I know). They send them off to day care so they can go back to work. Or
like you said, they seem to try to control every aspect of the child's life.
Not all breastfed kids are attached! My own sister has 4 kids who were BF
(14mos up to 2 yrs, generally weaned when she was pregnant with the next
one) and they slept in bed next to her during that time, but now she sort of
ignores them and there are just 4 kids running around the house and they are
some of the wildest and most violent kids I know.
Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot. How to stay attached with my son as
he grows older. Also realizing our need to connect with other families who
are on a similar path. I need in person support. Most of my friends are
pretty mainstream and as much as I love them (and would love to influence
them to be more like me, haha!) it can be straining to hang out with them
and see how they treat their kids.
Kim Z
www.passitonsales. com
This email was sent on 100% recycled electrons.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh, and I am addicted to Lost (come quickly new Lost season, hurry up!!!) and I also had to downgrade to basic cable because of finances... but get rid of the TV? Never! ;-) Guess I'm not the yikes woman you speak of!
-Sahara
----- Original Message ----
From: Kim Zerbe <kim.zerbe@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:59:33 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] what's up with the AP moms? (was: needing time for myself)
Yikes on the woman who wants to get rid of her TV because her son watches
it!!! I have a homeschooling friend who got rid of her TV earlier this year.
Apparently she was addicted to Lost or something like that and the only way
she could control her urge to watch was to get rid of her TV! (What the ???)
She was also of the opinion that it would be better for her son. Wow. If I
don't want to watch the TV, I turn mine off.
On the AP note, I'm in limbo because I can't quite find a local group I fit
with. We have an AP group that is pretty good sized and I try to make the
meetings (once a month) but it doesn't always work out. The leader is great
at getting discussions going online, but I had hoped to meet and make more
friends in person. I've been in the group for almost 3 years and the friends
I used to have don't go anymore and/or live too far from us. I'm discouraged
because at the last meeting I'm sure I had the oldest child there and he was
only 3.5 then! Where are the parents with older kids?! Now he is 4 and I'm
feeling less and less connected with the AP group because the meeting is so
full of babies. Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it's nice to
be there to support them, something I enjoy, but I had also hoped to find
friends who are on a similar life path with kids the same age as mine. Is
that too much to ask?? I guess we just need to plug into the unschooling
community now.
There is something else about the AP moms I couldn't quite put my finger on
but I think you just did. The older children are all in preschools now and
it's harder to meet up with them or even meet new people because moms with
preschool aged kids just don't go to the meetings anymore. It's almost like
they lost the attachment part of parenting. I know working moms can be
attached (it's harder!), I just wonder how the SAHMs justify sending a 2 yr
old off to school when the mom doesn't work. I guess it is the "normal"
thing to do. Fit into society.
I thought there was a natural migration from Attachment Parenting to
Unconditional Parenting to Unschooling! It all seems to follow the needs of
the child. So then why can't I find anyone in my AP group who is on this
path??? There is 1 (the AP leader actually) who is also on the UP board and
seems to be reading all the same books as me. ;) I'm not sure she will be
unschooling, but maybe we should talk. The only friend I have who is on the
unschooling path quit the AP group a long time ago. She is an LLL leader and
stuck more with that group. I have a feeling her and I could start our own
unschooling group pretty soon! (We live on the west side of town and most of
the unschooling stuff in town happens downtown or on the north or east
sides, nowhere near us.)
I also wonder about some women who are so into breastfeeding (something I
see as a way to connect with my child) and then as soon as the kid is
weaned, there is no connection (or they just don't put much time into their
relationship with their child after that, just an observation with a few
moms I know). They send them off to day care so they can go back to work. Or
like you said, they seem to try to control every aspect of the child's life.
Not all breastfed kids are attached! My own sister has 4 kids who were BF
(14mos up to 2 yrs, generally weaned when she was pregnant with the next
one) and they slept in bed next to her during that time, but now she sort of
ignores them and there are just 4 kids running around the house and they are
some of the wildest and most violent kids I know.
Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot. How to stay attached with my son as
he grows older. Also realizing our need to connect with other families who
are on a similar path. I need in person support. Most of my friends are
pretty mainstream and as much as I love them (and would love to influence
them to be more like me, haha!) it can be straining to hang out with them
and see how they treat their kids.
Kim Z
www.passitonsales. com
This email was sent on 100% recycled electrons.
<http://geo.yahoo com/serv? s=97359714/ grpId=12789513/ grpspId=17050819 72/msgI
d=34859/stime= 1217265225/ nc1=4025291/ nc2=5286667/ nc3=5191954>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
I have had similar experiences but that's why I became a leader.
Faith
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:50 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:50 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> I have had the same experience here in my LLL and that is why I don't go--
> to the meetings anymore.
> I just cannot take all the controling. It makes me feel controled ARGH!
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "DACunefare@... <DACunefare%40aol.com>" <DACunefare@...<DACunefare%40aol.com>
> >
> To: [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:11:58 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needing time for myself
>
> **I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for how to
> live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't know
> that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
> So, so grateful to have found RU.**
>
> In my experience, women who identify themselves as "attachment parents"
> when
> their children are born often become some of the most controlling people on
>
> the face of the earth shortly after the toddler stage starts. They identify
>
> attachment parenting with controlling every mouthful of food that goes into
> their
> child, with controlling toys and media, with ensuring their child is
> practically perfect in every way. In the name of AP they drive wedges
> between
> themselves and their children, totally oblivious to the contradiction.
>
> I'm sadly watching a discussion on a local AP International yahoo group
> about
> getting rid of tv. One mom wrote "We just got rid of expanded cable when
> dh lost his job .. just have basic now and I will soon be getting rid of
> that
> when I can get an antenna. (Son) literally cried because Nickolodian was
> gone. He was so mad at me. I guess all the more reason to get rid of it.
> He was
> obviously addicted. I was not liking the shows that he was watching or his
>
> prefernce to sit in watch them over anything else. So, we got rid of that
> and
> his beloved Nintendo DS that grandma (so loveingly... . grrr.. ) bought for
>
> him. I think it was a very wise move.. and a good motivator for dh to find
> a
> job! (Son) doesn't really miss either now."
>
> I'd cry if someone got rid of my books without asking me or a present
> someone
> had given me, and I have the resources to replace them for myself. (I can
> understand the need to cut expenses because of a job loss, it's the
> celebrating
> it as good BECAUSE the child was so unhappy that just throws me for a
> loop.)
>
> Anyway.
>
> Deborah in IL
>
> ************ **
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign
> up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
>
> (http://www.fanhouse .com/fantasyaffa ir?ncid=aolspr00 050000000020)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Well after I posted that Brian and I talked again and it may still be iffy.
But IF other travels (complicated with several destinations to coordinate)
happens the week before, I will be seeing you there. :)
I wanted so bad to come to Live&Learn but the time and money expense... I
opted for a one day thing instead. Is this the last year for it? I can't
remember now. I'm thinking it is. :(
~Katherine
But IF other travels (complicated with several destinations to coordinate)
happens the week before, I will be seeing you there. :)
I wanted so bad to come to Live&Learn but the time and money expense... I
opted for a one day thing instead. Is this the last year for it? I can't
remember now. I'm thinking it is. :(
~Katherine
On 7/28/08, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: k <katherand@... <katherand%40gmail.com>>
>
> I'm going to that. :)
>
> > I'm actually speaking about our journey at a conference here in NC!
> > Not Live and Learn, but Love to Learn, an inclusive secular
> conference.
> > http://www.lovetolearnconference.com/
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Me too! <g> See you there!
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
> **************************************
> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
duckgirl01
I totally understand where you are coming from regarding AP groups. I
was very active in my local AP group, but I have had to distance
myself a lot from the group in the last year or so. On our AP yahoo
group, I remember a thread where parents were discussing how to make
your child clean up. Someone suggested saying to the child something
like, "Honey, if you can't help yourself to clean up, than I will have
to help you to do it" and then physically taking their hands and
making them pick up toys. It's hard to explain, but it reminded me a
lot of the psychological ways that adults abuse other adults (I'm
talking domestic violence). When I spoke up about it, and how
coercive it was, I was not treated well. The group was not open to
non-coercive parenting. They may not be doing outright violent things
like spanking, but most of the AP parents I know will use just about
any other method to get their kids to do what they want them to do, of
course veiled in some sort of euphemism (e.g. "help" means "make", etc.)
Here's my theory of why AP parents become a lot less attached as their
child gets older: in one word - school! As soon as preschool or
elementary school surfaces, they begin to detach themselves. Partly
it's by necessity - they have to force some independence, however
unready their child is, to get them ready to be alone with strangers
for many hours per day. And partly, it's the unquestioning acceptance
that their child should just magically be more independent by school
age. They sort of think in their minds that their child will just *be
ready* by age 4 to 5 to be less attached. The idea of school being
required in our culture is just so entrenched that most AP parents
that I know never question how it fits with AP parenting.
I've blogged about this example before - when AP parents face the day
when their child goes on the school bus and leaves for the first time.
Many of them are really upset inside. If they talk about it a
little, they will express how they cried and worried, how their child
was upset. But somehow they are able to push away that awareness
that both parties are doing something unnatural, or that they are not
ready for. Some will even say things like, "Well, I know it's good
for him." Like they are trying to find the benefit, however hard, in
the situation. I'm not talking about how I sometimes feel when I see
my son is getting older and becoming more independent on his own terms
- I sometimes feel sad, but also happy that he is doing something new,
getting bigger on his own terms. The parents dealing with the school
bus for the first time are almost victims of a system being imposed,
whether they or their child like it or not, and they will use whatever
psychological coping strategies and excuses they have to get through
it. If only they could find it within themselves to embrace their
inner wisdom and make different choices, or allow their children to
make different choices.
Trish
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
was very active in my local AP group, but I have had to distance
myself a lot from the group in the last year or so. On our AP yahoo
group, I remember a thread where parents were discussing how to make
your child clean up. Someone suggested saying to the child something
like, "Honey, if you can't help yourself to clean up, than I will have
to help you to do it" and then physically taking their hands and
making them pick up toys. It's hard to explain, but it reminded me a
lot of the psychological ways that adults abuse other adults (I'm
talking domestic violence). When I spoke up about it, and how
coercive it was, I was not treated well. The group was not open to
non-coercive parenting. They may not be doing outright violent things
like spanking, but most of the AP parents I know will use just about
any other method to get their kids to do what they want them to do, of
course veiled in some sort of euphemism (e.g. "help" means "make", etc.)
Here's my theory of why AP parents become a lot less attached as their
child gets older: in one word - school! As soon as preschool or
elementary school surfaces, they begin to detach themselves. Partly
it's by necessity - they have to force some independence, however
unready their child is, to get them ready to be alone with strangers
for many hours per day. And partly, it's the unquestioning acceptance
that their child should just magically be more independent by school
age. They sort of think in their minds that their child will just *be
ready* by age 4 to 5 to be less attached. The idea of school being
required in our culture is just so entrenched that most AP parents
that I know never question how it fits with AP parenting.
I've blogged about this example before - when AP parents face the day
when their child goes on the school bus and leaves for the first time.
Many of them are really upset inside. If they talk about it a
little, they will express how they cried and worried, how their child
was upset. But somehow they are able to push away that awareness
that both parties are doing something unnatural, or that they are not
ready for. Some will even say things like, "Well, I know it's good
for him." Like they are trying to find the benefit, however hard, in
the situation. I'm not talking about how I sometimes feel when I see
my son is getting older and becoming more independent on his own terms
- I sometimes feel sad, but also happy that he is doing something new,
getting bigger on his own terms. The parents dealing with the school
bus for the first time are almost victims of a system being imposed,
whether they or their child like it or not, and they will use whatever
psychological coping strategies and excuses they have to get through
it. If only they could find it within themselves to embrace their
inner wisdom and make different choices, or allow their children to
make different choices.
Trish
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
>watches
> Yikes on the woman who wants to get rid of her TV because her son
> it!!! I have a homeschooling friend who got rid of her TV earlierthis year.
> Apparently she was addicted to Lost or something like that and theonly way
> she could control her urge to watch was to get rid of her TV! (Whatthe ???)
> She was also of the opinion that it would be better for her son.Wow. If I
> don't want to watch the TV, I turn mine off.group I fit
>
> On the AP note, I'm in limbo because I can't quite find a local
> with. We have an AP group that is pretty good sized and I try tomake the
> meetings (once a month) but it doesn't always work out. The leaderis great
> at getting discussions going online, but I had hoped to meet andmake more
> friends in person. I've been in the group for almost 3 years and thefriends
> I used to have don't go anymore and/or live too far from us. I'mdiscouraged
> because at the last meeting I'm sure I had the oldest child thereand he was
> only 3.5 then! Where are the parents with older kids?! Now he is 4and I'm
> feeling less and less connected with the AP group because themeeting is so
> full of babies. Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it'snice to
> be there to support them, something I enjoy, but I had also hoped tofind
> friends who are on a similar life path with kids the same age asmine. Is
> that too much to ask?? I guess we just need to plug into the unschoolingfinger on
> community now.
>
> There is something else about the AP moms I couldn't quite put my
> but I think you just did. The older children are all in preschoolsnow and
> it's harder to meet up with them or even meet new people becausemoms with
> preschool aged kids just don't go to the meetings anymore. It'salmost like
> they lost the attachment part of parenting. I know working moms can bea 2 yr
> attached (it's harder!), I just wonder how the SAHMs justify sending
> old off to school when the mom doesn't work. I guess it is the "normal"needs of
> thing to do. Fit into society.
>
> I thought there was a natural migration from Attachment Parenting to
> Unconditional Parenting to Unschooling! It all seems to follow the
> the child. So then why can't I find anyone in my AP group who is on thisboard and
> path??? There is 1 (the AP leader actually) who is also on the UP
> seems to be reading all the same books as me. ;) I'm not sure shewill be
> unschooling, but maybe we should talk. The only friend I have who ison the
> unschooling path quit the AP group a long time ago. She is an LLLleader and
> stuck more with that group. I have a feeling her and I could startour own
> unschooling group pretty soon! (We live on the west side of town andmost of
> the unschooling stuff in town happens downtown or on the north or east(something I
> sides, nowhere near us.)
>
> I also wonder about some women who are so into breastfeeding
> see as a way to connect with my child) and then as soon as the kid isinto their
> weaned, there is no connection (or they just don't put much time
> relationship with their child after that, just an observation with a fewwork. Or
> moms I know). They send them off to day care so they can go back to
> like you said, they seem to try to control every aspect of thechild's life.
> Not all breastfed kids are attached! My own sister has 4 kids whowere BF
> (14mos up to 2 yrs, generally weaned when she was pregnant with the nextsort of
> one) and they slept in bed next to her during that time, but now she
> ignores them and there are just 4 kids running around the house andthey are
> some of the wildest and most violent kids I know.son as
>
> Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot. How to stay attached with my
> he grows older. Also realizing our need to connect with otherfamilies who
> are on a similar path. I need in person support. Most of my friends areinfluence
> pretty mainstream and as much as I love them (and would love to
> them to be more like me, haha!) it can be straining to hang out withthem
> and see how they treat their kids.<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12789513/grpspId=1705081972/msgI
>
> Kim Z
> www.passitonsales.com
>
> This email was sent on 100% recycled electrons.
>
>
> d=34859/stime=1217265225/nc1=4025291/nc2=5286667/nc3=5191954>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Rebecca
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it's nice to
League and Attachment Parenting friends parented in a similar way with
babies, things changed drastically once our kids were past the baby
stage. It has really helped me to connect with some local unschooling
families and also to get my unschooling support from lists like this
one.
finding a lot of unschooling families near me. I do have to drive
across town to see my unschooling friends, though we try to rotate a
bit and to meet centrally. I have had to push through some of my
shyness to connect with like-minded people, now that I'm realizing
just how far the unschooling lifestyle is outside of the norm. I can't
expect to enjoy my neighbors' company just because we have kids the
same age.
around that parenting, and I also want to protect Quinn from it. I
know I can't shelter her from all of the non-unschool people of the
world <g>, but I do want to give her the opportunity to play without
listening to directions and threats and requests/orders to say please.
We have had more luck just going alone to places where there are
other young children (playgrounds, the zoo, etc.) than trying to hang
out with the formally-AP-crowd-now-turned-authoritarian. Quinn will
often click with a random child at a park, and that seems to meet her
needs for socializing for now aside from our semi-regular get
togethers with a couple of friends on the non-coercive/unschooling end
of the spectrum.
I have had to shift my thinking a bit though. In the past, I was able
to socialize with the AP mamas and Quinn with their AP kids. Now
there are fewer mamas that I click with, and Quinn isn't always
clicking with their kids. We're still at a stage where we are always
together, so the kids and mamas come as a package whether or not we
all click. We're each having to give a little when Quinn hangs out
with me and my friends and their kids OR when she wants to play with
her friends and I'm not so fond of those friends' mamas. As Quinn
gets a bit older, I'm guessing there will be more opportunities for me
to connect with other adults with similar interests *outside of our
parenting styles*. And Quinn might be more comfortable playing with
friends or going to activities without me there or at least not
wanting me right in the middle participating.
Rebecca
wrote:
Is AP only for babies? What comes next?! Sure it's nice to
> be there to support them, something I enjoy, but I had also hoped tofind
> friends who are on a similar life path with kids the same age asmine. Is
> that too much to ask?? I guess we just need to plug into the unschoolingThis is what I have found in my community. While many of my La Leche
> community now.
>
League and Attachment Parenting friends parented in a similar way with
babies, things changed drastically once our kids were past the baby
stage. It has really helped me to connect with some local unschooling
families and also to get my unschooling support from lists like this
one.
> I thought there was a natural migration from Attachment Parenting toneeds of
> Unconditional Parenting to Unschooling! It all seems to follow the
> the child. So then why can't I find anyone in my AP group who is on thisboard and
> path??? There is 1 (the AP leader actually) who is also on the UP
> seems to be reading all the same books as me. ;) I'm not sure shewill be
> unschooling, but maybe we should talk. The only friend I have who ison the
> unschooling path quit the AP group a long time ago. She is an LLLleader and
> stuck more with that group. I have a feeling her and I could startour own
> unschooling group pretty soon! (We live on the west side of town andmost of
> the unschooling stuff in town happens downtown or on the north or eastI live in the Denver Metro area. Even in a city this large, I'm not
> sides, nowhere near us.)
>
finding a lot of unschooling families near me. I do have to drive
across town to see my unschooling friends, though we try to rotate a
bit and to meet centrally. I have had to push through some of my
shyness to connect with like-minded people, now that I'm realizing
just how far the unschooling lifestyle is outside of the norm. I can't
expect to enjoy my neighbors' company just because we have kids the
same age.
> Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot. How to stay attached with myson as
> he grows older. Also realizing our need to connect with otherfamilies who
> are on a similar path. I need in person support. Most of my friends areinfluence
> pretty mainstream and as much as I love them (and would love to
> them to be more like me, haha!) it can be straining to hang out withthem
> and see how they treat their kids.I'm feeling that strain at times too. I personally don't want to be
>
> Kim Z
around that parenting, and I also want to protect Quinn from it. I
know I can't shelter her from all of the non-unschool people of the
world <g>, but I do want to give her the opportunity to play without
listening to directions and threats and requests/orders to say please.
We have had more luck just going alone to places where there are
other young children (playgrounds, the zoo, etc.) than trying to hang
out with the formally-AP-crowd-now-turned-authoritarian. Quinn will
often click with a random child at a park, and that seems to meet her
needs for socializing for now aside from our semi-regular get
togethers with a couple of friends on the non-coercive/unschooling end
of the spectrum.
I have had to shift my thinking a bit though. In the past, I was able
to socialize with the AP mamas and Quinn with their AP kids. Now
there are fewer mamas that I click with, and Quinn isn't always
clicking with their kids. We're still at a stage where we are always
together, so the kids and mamas come as a package whether or not we
all click. We're each having to give a little when Quinn hangs out
with me and my friends and their kids OR when she wants to play with
her friends and I'm not so fond of those friends' mamas. As Quinn
gets a bit older, I'm guessing there will be more opportunities for me
to connect with other adults with similar interests *outside of our
parenting styles*. And Quinn might be more comfortable playing with
friends or going to activities without me there or at least not
wanting me right in the middle participating.
Rebecca
Rebecca
--- In [email protected], "duckgirl01"
<hippytrish@...> wrote:
Unconditional/Non-coercive/Consensual (choose your label) parents, and
we are always shot down so severely when we speak up. It's as if
someone tried to advocate spanking on an unschooling list! The last
time I got involved in a parenting discussion on the AP list, a mama
had punished her 2 kids, 4 and 6 year olds, by forcing them to sit in
a rocking chair together for a hour, and then posted a photo of them
in the chair with one child crying and the other laughing. Several
mamas (like 10!) posted how funny the photo was and what a great
method for handling sibling fighting! I was appalled and said I was
thought the punishment was cruel, not funny, and humiliating to the
children to post a photo. The two administrators both *then* spoke up
to say that it didn't seem to fit with gentle parenting. One other
person voiced dismay. That was 4 people in over 100 active members!
The thread kept going on with several posts in disagreement with me
and in support of the punishing mama, denying that it was even
punishment. I'm trying to wean myself from that group all together. I
do like to find out about local happenings and co-ops, but I don't go
to any of their moms-night-outs or play groups any more.
their children to preschool at age 2. It is so odd how some parents
are so eager for their children to be "independent".
I not anti-AP even though I don't associate with that crowd now. I
learned a lot from the community and Dr. Sears, and many of my
favorite unschoolers started this journey as AP parents! :)
Rebecca
<hippytrish@...> wrote:
>My local AP forum is very similar. There are only a handful of
> I totally understand where you are coming from regarding AP groups. I
> was very active in my local AP group, but I have had to distance
> myself a lot from the group in the last year or so. On our AP yahoo
> group, I remember a thread where parents were discussing how to make
> your child clean up. Someone suggested saying to the child something
> like, "Honey, if you can't help yourself to clean up, than I will have
> to help you to do it" and then physically taking their hands and
> making them pick up toys. It's hard to explain, but it reminded me a
> lot of the psychological ways that adults abuse other adults (I'm
> talking domestic violence). When I spoke up about it, and how
> coercive it was, I was not treated well. The group was not open to
> non-coercive parenting. They may not be doing outright violent things
> like spanking, but most of the AP parents I know will use just about
> any other method to get their kids to do what they want them to do, of
> course veiled in some sort of euphemism (e.g. "help" means "make", etc.)
>
Unconditional/Non-coercive/Consensual (choose your label) parents, and
we are always shot down so severely when we speak up. It's as if
someone tried to advocate spanking on an unschooling list! The last
time I got involved in a parenting discussion on the AP list, a mama
had punished her 2 kids, 4 and 6 year olds, by forcing them to sit in
a rocking chair together for a hour, and then posted a photo of them
in the chair with one child crying and the other laughing. Several
mamas (like 10!) posted how funny the photo was and what a great
method for handling sibling fighting! I was appalled and said I was
thought the punishment was cruel, not funny, and humiliating to the
children to post a photo. The two administrators both *then* spoke up
to say that it didn't seem to fit with gentle parenting. One other
person voiced dismay. That was 4 people in over 100 active members!
The thread kept going on with several posts in disagreement with me
and in support of the punishing mama, denying that it was even
punishment. I'm trying to wean myself from that group all together. I
do like to find out about local happenings and co-ops, but I don't go
to any of their moms-night-outs or play groups any more.
> Here's my theory of why AP parents become a lot less attached as theirYes but as someone else pointed out, there are SAHMs choosing to send
> child gets older: in one word - school!
their children to preschool at age 2. It is so odd how some parents
are so eager for their children to be "independent".
I not anti-AP even though I don't associate with that crowd now. I
learned a lot from the community and Dr. Sears, and many of my
favorite unschoolers started this journey as AP parents! :)
Rebecca
Vickisue Gray
>>>>4 and 6 year olds, by forcing them to sit ina rocking chair together for a hour, and then posted a photo of them
in the chair with one child crying and the other laughing.<<<<
That's one of the saddest things I've heard lately. I wonder if the parents even realize the why of why one child was laughing and the other crying. Geez! If my mother had handled sibling fights that way, I probably would have run away from home before my tenth birthday. My big brother was a bully and would have relished this form of punishment as he could have continued the torment.
I thought AP parenting was closer to unschooling then that.
Vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
duckgirl01
Another Leader here.
Our LLL group usually doesn't get much into parenting issues. We
don't have a toddler group, though. If we did, I'd imagine that I
would have more obvious difficulties dealing with diverse parenting
issues. With most of our meetings really focused on babies and
children under a year old, we can really focus on just the "meeting
your baby's needs" thing.
I don't think that you can expect LLL to really be a parenting group,
and certainly not for everyone. Although there are some basic
premises that LLL uses to support breastfeeding (like meeting your
child's needs), the whole purpose of LLL is to support and educate
moms about breastfeeding. So you are going to see and meet all sorts
of parents and leaders at meetings. Even Leaders can be very very
diverse. They will vary greatly from crunchy to mainstream, religious
to non-religious, authoritarian to permissive. When I find myself in
a meeting surrounded by parents who parent in ways that are the exact
opposite of me, I remind myself why I am there - to be around nursing
mothers, or to help mothers and babies nurse.
BTW, LLL does have alumni groups, for both leaders and members. But
again, the parenting is going to somewhat diverge.
Trish
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
Our LLL group usually doesn't get much into parenting issues. We
don't have a toddler group, though. If we did, I'd imagine that I
would have more obvious difficulties dealing with diverse parenting
issues. With most of our meetings really focused on babies and
children under a year old, we can really focus on just the "meeting
your baby's needs" thing.
I don't think that you can expect LLL to really be a parenting group,
and certainly not for everyone. Although there are some basic
premises that LLL uses to support breastfeeding (like meeting your
child's needs), the whole purpose of LLL is to support and educate
moms about breastfeeding. So you are going to see and meet all sorts
of parents and leaders at meetings. Even Leaders can be very very
diverse. They will vary greatly from crunchy to mainstream, religious
to non-religious, authoritarian to permissive. When I find myself in
a meeting surrounded by parents who parent in ways that are the exact
opposite of me, I remind myself why I am there - to be around nursing
mothers, or to help mothers and babies nurse.
BTW, LLL does have alumni groups, for both leaders and members. But
again, the parenting is going to somewhat diverge.
Trish
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
>don't go
> I have had similar experiences but that's why I became a leader.
> Faith
>
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:50 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
> polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> > I have had the same experience here in my LLL and that is why I
> > to the meetings anymore.ARGH!
> > I just cannot take all the controling. It makes me feel controled
> ><DACunefare@...<DACunefare%40aol.com>
> >
> > Alex Polikowsky
> > http://polykow.blogspot.com/
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "DACunefare@... <DACunefare%40aol.com>"
> > >[email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:11:58 PMhow to
> > Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needing time for myself
> >
> > **I remember wishing and wishing that LLL had "alumni" groups for
> > live attachment parenting beyond the preschool years. I didn't knowparents"
> > that *I* knew, in my gut and heart - or I'd have started one myself!
> > So, so grateful to have found RU.**
> >
> > In my experience, women who identify themselves as "attachment
> > whenpeople on
> > their children are born often become some of the most controlling
> >identify
> > the face of the earth shortly after the toddler stage starts. They
> >goes into
> > attachment parenting with controlling every mouthful of food that
> > theirgroup
> > child, with controlling toys and media, with ensuring their child is
> > practically perfect in every way. In the name of AP they drive wedges
> > between
> > themselves and their children, totally oblivious to the contradiction.
> >
> > I'm sadly watching a discussion on a local AP International yahoo
> > aboutcable when
> > getting rid of tv. One mom wrote "We just got rid of expanded
> > dh lost his job .. just have basic now and I will soon be gettingrid of
> > thatNickolodian was
> > when I can get an antenna. (Son) literally cried because
> > gone. He was so mad at me. I guess all the more reason to getrid of it.
> > He waswatching or his
> > obviously addicted. I was not liking the shows that he was
> >of that
> > prefernce to sit in watch them over anything else. So, we got rid
> > andbought for
> > his beloved Nintendo DS that grandma (so loveingly... . grrr.. )
> >dh to find
> > him. I think it was a very wise move.. and a good motivator for
> > a(I can
> > job! (Son) doesn't really miss either now."
> >
> > I'd cry if someone got rid of my books without asking me or a present
> > someone
> > had given me, and I have the resources to replace them for myself.
> > understand the need to cut expenses because of a job loss, it's the
> > celebrating
> > it as good BECAUSE the child was so unhappy that just throws me for a
> > loop.)
> >
> > Anyway.
> >
> > Deborah in IL
> >
> > ************ **
> > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign
> > up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
> >
> > (http://www.fanhouse .com/fantasyaffa ir?ncid=aolspr00 050000000020)
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> www.bearthmama.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>