since I started saying yes....
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will (put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind. When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else. So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will (put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind. When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else. So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Glasser
Wow. You poor thing. I can totally empathize with you and wish I could help.
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S
Sherri-Lee,
It sounds to me like you don't have any personal boundaries. As much as I
am happy to wait on my children and say yes as often as possible, I will not
react kindly if I am treated poorly. Maybe it's my rebellious personality,
but when I am treated badly, I don't have any desire to help out the person
doing it and I'd be clear about that. If I asked my children (which I do
often) if they'd like me to bring them something to eat before I sit down or
go exercise and they say no and change their mind after, I would suggest
they find themselves something or wait until the next time that I am up.
I am not sure why your dd is acting like she is acting but it sounds like
something more serious is under all that anger. If my child were acting
like that, I wouldn't want to be around her either and I would make that
clear. If one of my children treated their siblings like that, I would
intervene and tell them they can't treat them like that. They don't deserve
to be treated so poorly and I would separate them and try to figure out what
caused the trouble to begin with. You are no different. You don't deserve
to be treated so badly and I would be the first one to tell her that. But,
you also need to get to the bottom of why she is feeling the need to be so
controlling.
Maybe I am just reading into what you wrote, but it sounds like you had lots
of rules and then dropped them completely without making her aware of your
personal boundaries. I hope you find a solution that works for you
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It sounds to me like you don't have any personal boundaries. As much as I
am happy to wait on my children and say yes as often as possible, I will not
react kindly if I am treated poorly. Maybe it's my rebellious personality,
but when I am treated badly, I don't have any desire to help out the person
doing it and I'd be clear about that. If I asked my children (which I do
often) if they'd like me to bring them something to eat before I sit down or
go exercise and they say no and change their mind after, I would suggest
they find themselves something or wait until the next time that I am up.
I am not sure why your dd is acting like she is acting but it sounds like
something more serious is under all that anger. If my child were acting
like that, I wouldn't want to be around her either and I would make that
clear. If one of my children treated their siblings like that, I would
intervene and tell them they can't treat them like that. They don't deserve
to be treated so poorly and I would separate them and try to figure out what
caused the trouble to begin with. You are no different. You don't deserve
to be treated so badly and I would be the first one to tell her that. But,
you also need to get to the bottom of why she is feeling the need to be so
controlling.
Maybe I am just reading into what you wrote, but it sounds like you had lots
of rules and then dropped them completely without making her aware of your
personal boundaries. I hope you find a solution that works for you
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has becomeWe have very few rules in our house. Number one rule is that we respect each other and each other's spaces. We each have our own room and the rule is that if you are asked to not come in someone's space then you are to honor that request. We also don't go into each other's spaces when the owner of that space isn't in the room (or given permission for entrance.) We expect each other to be kind and respectful. Respect is a major part of our family.
> petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
> miserable to be around.
> <snip>
> The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
> path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
> reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I have
> a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
> for anyone else.
Just reading what you have written speaks to me that your daughter used to have very set boundaries and then suddenly there were no boundaries and she may feel lost. She sees "yes" as "everything my way or I make everyone miserable" rather than realizing that other people exist in the her world and if she wants people to be want to do things for her and with her.
Is she an only child? Who does she play with on a daily/weekly basis? Does she have a peer group, siblings, cousins? Do you have a local homeschool or resource group that you meet with on a regular basis? Are there friends in the neighborhood that she can play with who are homeschooled or who are free to come play after school and on weekends? Have you talked to her about how you are feeling abused and come to a negotiation of what is acceptable for all of you. Obviously being her sole source of entertainment isn't working for you and you need to work together to find other sources of entertainment or ways for her to entertain herself.
I raised my children with gentle guidance. I subscribe to a very AP style of parenting. That doesn't mean that there are no rules and no "nos." Not because I feel that children "need" nos but because yeses don't always work or are appropriate. For instance a "totally chocolate dinner" isn't sound nutrition (although I'm working on it LOL!) and the kids can't go play out in the street (for obvious safety reasons). Sometimes I don't have the energy to be able to do that one last project or am busy with household activities (floors need to be washed and bills do need to be paid periodically) and so a "no" or a "later" is the answer. Obviously expenses also play into the picture. My kids have been raised with thrift store and discount rack shopping and know that if we want some of the luxuries that we have in our family that asking for a $40 pair of jeans isn't going to get them far when I can buy practically an entire winter wardrobe at the thrift store for the same amount.
I think before abandoning the entire "unschooling lifestyle" that you can re-evaluate what parts are and aren't working for you. It may be that your daughter needs a bit more structure or guidelines to work with. She may be feeling like a toddler and trying to figure out what her boundaries are and is confused because she doesn't seem to have any or they are very inconsistant. Families have to work as a whole and that includes the parents. If she isn't treating you with respect as a person (not just as her parent) then something isn't working for all of you.
Sorry this is so long. I just sense that there is an unhappy confused little girl and a tired stressed-out mommy and there can be a way to balance your world a little better without completely abandoning what can be a great family environment.
Michelle
Deb Lewis
Hi Sherri-Lee,
I'm sorry things are so hard.
I have been away from the list some, behind on posts a lot so I went to
the archives to see if I could read a bit about what you've written
previously about your daughter.
In a post in September you talk about being eight months pregnant. If
you are now nine months pregnant or a new mom you're probably exhausted
and under a lot of stress. I know it's hard.
Unschooling means not doing school. Your daughter is young, not even
school age. Would it help to think of how you would be living with her
if you'd never heard of unschooling? What things would you be doing
differently and would they ensure the peaceful family situation you
desire?
Applying the unschooling philosophy to parenting is an extension of
unschooling that some parents are not comfortable with. You don't need
anyone's approval to parent the way you want to. You get to make all
the choices about how you live with your daughter.
Because she's very young, and you are under a lot of stress, (and have
you said you're husband is older and not always supportive when you'd
like reassurance?) it's possible that the difficulties you're having are
not as related to unschooling as they seem to be right now.
In a post in August (?) you expressed some of the same frustrations, that
she's quite demanding and you don't always know how to handle that.
She's so little, she has a mama who's worn out from pregnancy and not
able to do as many things as she wants. She might be feeling lonely.
She's probably frustrated and angry. It so hard to have a lot of anger
when you're little, it's such a big emotion and it makes you feel so
yucky and it's so hard to not just let it out all over the closest person
you can find. Even adults do this after a lot of years on the planet and
a lot of experience with communication.
You've used some tough words "rude, mouthy, obnoxious..." and while I
don't doubt that is what it feels like to you, I don't think that is her
intent. It might help you to think of it from her point of view. What
is she feeling when she's having a difficult moment? If you can think,
"she's angry, frustrated, unsure, insecure, afraid," etc. you can think
of her as someone who could use your help, instead of someone who is
attacking you.
While this might not help you know how to deal with every situation it
can help you detach from feeling assaulted. When you aren't feeling like
you're under attack, you might have more energy to try to find a way to
communicate with her. You can't control her big emotions but you can
control how you let yourself react to them.
She loves you Sherri-Lee. She is not trying to hurt you. She doesn't
want to feel this way any more than you do. She doesn't want you to be
unhappy with her. She is trying to cope with the emotional situation
she finds herself in and she doesn't know any other way. She is very
much trying to communicate something to you, and because you're tired and
naturally worried you're not making whatever connections she's needing
you to make.
Talk to the list about it more, if you have the time to do that and I
know you'll get some support and ideas.
Deb Lewis
I'm sorry things are so hard.
I have been away from the list some, behind on posts a lot so I went to
the archives to see if I could read a bit about what you've written
previously about your daughter.
In a post in September you talk about being eight months pregnant. If
you are now nine months pregnant or a new mom you're probably exhausted
and under a lot of stress. I know it's hard.
Unschooling means not doing school. Your daughter is young, not even
school age. Would it help to think of how you would be living with her
if you'd never heard of unschooling? What things would you be doing
differently and would they ensure the peaceful family situation you
desire?
Applying the unschooling philosophy to parenting is an extension of
unschooling that some parents are not comfortable with. You don't need
anyone's approval to parent the way you want to. You get to make all
the choices about how you live with your daughter.
Because she's very young, and you are under a lot of stress, (and have
you said you're husband is older and not always supportive when you'd
like reassurance?) it's possible that the difficulties you're having are
not as related to unschooling as they seem to be right now.
In a post in August (?) you expressed some of the same frustrations, that
she's quite demanding and you don't always know how to handle that.
She's so little, she has a mama who's worn out from pregnancy and not
able to do as many things as she wants. She might be feeling lonely.
She's probably frustrated and angry. It so hard to have a lot of anger
when you're little, it's such a big emotion and it makes you feel so
yucky and it's so hard to not just let it out all over the closest person
you can find. Even adults do this after a lot of years on the planet and
a lot of experience with communication.
You've used some tough words "rude, mouthy, obnoxious..." and while I
don't doubt that is what it feels like to you, I don't think that is her
intent. It might help you to think of it from her point of view. What
is she feeling when she's having a difficult moment? If you can think,
"she's angry, frustrated, unsure, insecure, afraid," etc. you can think
of her as someone who could use your help, instead of someone who is
attacking you.
While this might not help you know how to deal with every situation it
can help you detach from feeling assaulted. When you aren't feeling like
you're under attack, you might have more energy to try to find a way to
communicate with her. You can't control her big emotions but you can
control how you let yourself react to them.
She loves you Sherri-Lee. She is not trying to hurt you. She doesn't
want to feel this way any more than you do. She doesn't want you to be
unhappy with her. She is trying to cope with the emotional situation
she finds herself in and she doesn't know any other way. She is very
much trying to communicate something to you, and because you're tired and
naturally worried you're not making whatever connections she's needing
you to make.
Talk to the list about it more, if you have the time to do that and I
know you'll get some support and ideas.
Deb Lewis
Virginia Glasser
Great post Deb.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 7:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Sherri-Lee,
I'm sorry things are so hard.
I have been away from the list some, behind on posts a lot so I went to
the archives to see if I could read a bit about what you've written
previously about your daughter.
In a post in September you talk about being eight months pregnant. If
you are now nine months pregnant or a new mom you're probably exhausted
and under a lot of stress. I know it's hard.
Unschooling means not doing school. Your daughter is young, not even
school age. Would it help to think of how you would be living with her
if you'd never heard of unschooling? What things would you be doing
differently and would they ensure the peaceful family situation you
desire?
Applying the unschooling philosophy to parenting is an extension of
unschooling that some parents are not comfortable with. You don't need
anyone's approval to parent the way you want to. You get to make all
the choices about how you live with your daughter.
Because she's very young, and you are under a lot of stress, (and have
you said you're husband is older and not always supportive when you'd
like reassurance?) it's possible that the difficulties you're having are
not as related to unschooling as they seem to be right now.
In a post in August (?) you expressed some of the same frustrations, that
she's quite demanding and you don't always know how to handle that.
She's so little, she has a mama who's worn out from pregnancy and not
able to do as many things as she wants. She might be feeling lonely.
She's probably frustrated and angry. It so hard to have a lot of anger
when you're little, it's such a big emotion and it makes you feel so
yucky and it's so hard to not just let it out all over the closest person
you can find. Even adults do this after a lot of years on the planet and
a lot of experience with communication.
You've used some tough words "rude, mouthy, obnoxious..." and while I
don't doubt that is what it feels like to you, I don't think that is her
intent. It might help you to think of it from her point of view. What
is she feeling when she's having a difficult moment? If you can think,
"she's angry, frustrated, unsure, insecure, afraid," etc. you can think
of her as someone who could use your help, instead of someone who is
attacking you.
While this might not help you know how to deal with every situation it
can help you detach from feeling assaulted. When you aren't feeling like
you're under attack, you might have more energy to try to find a way to
communicate with her. You can't control her big emotions but you can
control how you let yourself react to them.
She loves you Sherri-Lee. She is not trying to hurt you. She doesn't
want to feel this way any more than you do. She doesn't want you to be
unhappy with her. She is trying to cope with the emotional situation
she finds herself in and she doesn't know any other way. She is very
much trying to communicate something to you, and because you're tired and
naturally worried you're not making whatever connections she's needing
you to make.
Talk to the list about it more, if you have the time to do that and I
know you'll get some support and ideas.
Deb Lewis
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 7:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Sherri-Lee,
I'm sorry things are so hard.
I have been away from the list some, behind on posts a lot so I went to
the archives to see if I could read a bit about what you've written
previously about your daughter.
In a post in September you talk about being eight months pregnant. If
you are now nine months pregnant or a new mom you're probably exhausted
and under a lot of stress. I know it's hard.
Unschooling means not doing school. Your daughter is young, not even
school age. Would it help to think of how you would be living with her
if you'd never heard of unschooling? What things would you be doing
differently and would they ensure the peaceful family situation you
desire?
Applying the unschooling philosophy to parenting is an extension of
unschooling that some parents are not comfortable with. You don't need
anyone's approval to parent the way you want to. You get to make all
the choices about how you live with your daughter.
Because she's very young, and you are under a lot of stress, (and have
you said you're husband is older and not always supportive when you'd
like reassurance?) it's possible that the difficulties you're having are
not as related to unschooling as they seem to be right now.
In a post in August (?) you expressed some of the same frustrations, that
she's quite demanding and you don't always know how to handle that.
She's so little, she has a mama who's worn out from pregnancy and not
able to do as many things as she wants. She might be feeling lonely.
She's probably frustrated and angry. It so hard to have a lot of anger
when you're little, it's such a big emotion and it makes you feel so
yucky and it's so hard to not just let it out all over the closest person
you can find. Even adults do this after a lot of years on the planet and
a lot of experience with communication.
You've used some tough words "rude, mouthy, obnoxious..." and while I
don't doubt that is what it feels like to you, I don't think that is her
intent. It might help you to think of it from her point of view. What
is she feeling when she's having a difficult moment? If you can think,
"she's angry, frustrated, unsure, insecure, afraid," etc. you can think
of her as someone who could use your help, instead of someone who is
attacking you.
While this might not help you know how to deal with every situation it
can help you detach from feeling assaulted. When you aren't feeling like
you're under attack, you might have more energy to try to find a way to
communicate with her. You can't control her big emotions but you can
control how you let yourself react to them.
She loves you Sherri-Lee. She is not trying to hurt you. She doesn't
want to feel this way any more than you do. She doesn't want you to be
unhappy with her. She is trying to cope with the emotional situation
she finds herself in and she doesn't know any other way. She is very
much trying to communicate something to you, and because you're tired and
naturally worried you're not making whatever connections she's needing
you to make.
Talk to the list about it more, if you have the time to do that and I
know you'll get some support and ideas.
Deb Lewis
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherri-Lee Pressman
HI Angela,
WOW... I do have personal boundaries, I have always been lousy at
establishing them with people and because of that have anger issues when
people don't recognize them. I was getting better at that, until this whole
unschooling thing came up and I started thinking about doing things
cheerfully for my child and modeling that. So I started saying yes more, I
would get up and get her a drink of water when she asked, so she wouldn't
have to miss her show and I was seeing that she was most willing to go and
so something for me in return. That seemed to be working. But perhaps I went
a little overboard on it and it has started to have bad feelings and
resentment in the actions for me, which of course come out in my body
language and facial expression and doesn't help to achieve my goal. Thank
you for mentioning this.
I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want me to
get you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I don't
really want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am not
hungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get me
XXX?" I would say "I just sat down and don't want to get up, why don't you
get it?" She has lots of food available to her, that she picks out at the
store that are in places she can reach that she actually doesn't need me to
do for her. Sometimes she was just looking at me and instantly starting
whining and demanding that I go do it for her. I really just don't know how
to deal with that sometimes. I remind her that I let her know I was going to
sit and asked her before hand and her answer was no thanks and her response
is "I changed my mind." Well ok that isn't a bad thing is it? And sometimes
then saying no felt like punishing her for changing her mind, which isn't
good. SO I would get up and get it and then sit again with the same
information for her.
How would you handle that situation?
We never had "lots" of rules. Mainly, bedtime, which we still have although
a little later now, and we turned off the TV at my insistence more than we
do now. WE did have standards of behaviour and expectations of politeness
etc, I don't think that has changed though. What seems to have changed is
her willingness and her selfishness seems to have grown.
Not sure what else to say to be honest, thank you for your thoughts, anymore
you have are welcome,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Angela S [mailto:game-enthusiast@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Sherri-Lee,
It sounds to me like you don't have any personal boundaries. As much as I
am happy to wait on my children and say yes as often as possible, I will not
react kindly if I am treated poorly. Maybe it's my rebellious personality,
but when I am treated badly, I don't have any desire to help out the person
doing it and I'd be clear about that. If I asked my children (which I do
often) if they'd like me to bring them something to eat before I sit down or
go exercise and they say no and change their mind after, I would suggest
they find themselves something or wait until the next time that I am up.
I am not sure why your dd is acting like she is acting but it sounds like
something more serious is under all that anger. If my child were acting
like that, I wouldn't want to be around her either and I would make that
clear. If one of my children treated their siblings like that, I would
intervene and tell them they can't treat them like that. They don't deserve
to be treated so poorly and I would separate them and try to figure out what
caused the trouble to begin with. You are no different. You don't deserve
to be treated so badly and I would be the first one to tell her that. But,
you also need to get to the bottom of why she is feeling the need to be so
controlling.
Maybe I am just reading into what you wrote, but it sounds like you had lots
of rules and then dropped them completely without making her aware of your
personal boundaries. I hope you find a solution that works for you
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
WOW... I do have personal boundaries, I have always been lousy at
establishing them with people and because of that have anger issues when
people don't recognize them. I was getting better at that, until this whole
unschooling thing came up and I started thinking about doing things
cheerfully for my child and modeling that. So I started saying yes more, I
would get up and get her a drink of water when she asked, so she wouldn't
have to miss her show and I was seeing that she was most willing to go and
so something for me in return. That seemed to be working. But perhaps I went
a little overboard on it and it has started to have bad feelings and
resentment in the actions for me, which of course come out in my body
language and facial expression and doesn't help to achieve my goal. Thank
you for mentioning this.
I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want me to
get you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I don't
really want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am not
hungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get me
XXX?" I would say "I just sat down and don't want to get up, why don't you
get it?" She has lots of food available to her, that she picks out at the
store that are in places she can reach that she actually doesn't need me to
do for her. Sometimes she was just looking at me and instantly starting
whining and demanding that I go do it for her. I really just don't know how
to deal with that sometimes. I remind her that I let her know I was going to
sit and asked her before hand and her answer was no thanks and her response
is "I changed my mind." Well ok that isn't a bad thing is it? And sometimes
then saying no felt like punishing her for changing her mind, which isn't
good. SO I would get up and get it and then sit again with the same
information for her.
How would you handle that situation?
We never had "lots" of rules. Mainly, bedtime, which we still have although
a little later now, and we turned off the TV at my insistence more than we
do now. WE did have standards of behaviour and expectations of politeness
etc, I don't think that has changed though. What seems to have changed is
her willingness and her selfishness seems to have grown.
Not sure what else to say to be honest, thank you for your thoughts, anymore
you have are welcome,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Angela S [mailto:game-enthusiast@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Sherri-Lee,
It sounds to me like you don't have any personal boundaries. As much as I
am happy to wait on my children and say yes as often as possible, I will not
react kindly if I am treated poorly. Maybe it's my rebellious personality,
but when I am treated badly, I don't have any desire to help out the person
doing it and I'd be clear about that. If I asked my children (which I do
often) if they'd like me to bring them something to eat before I sit down or
go exercise and they say no and change their mind after, I would suggest
they find themselves something or wait until the next time that I am up.
I am not sure why your dd is acting like she is acting but it sounds like
something more serious is under all that anger. If my child were acting
like that, I wouldn't want to be around her either and I would make that
clear. If one of my children treated their siblings like that, I would
intervene and tell them they can't treat them like that. They don't deserve
to be treated so poorly and I would separate them and try to figure out what
caused the trouble to begin with. You are no different. You don't deserve
to be treated so badly and I would be the first one to tell her that. But,
you also need to get to the bottom of why she is feeling the need to be so
controlling.
Maybe I am just reading into what you wrote, but it sounds like you had lots
of rules and then dropped them completely without making her aware of your
personal boundaries. I hope you find a solution that works for you
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Virginia,
Thank you. You are right, follow your heart, I just have a hard time hearing
my own heart sometimes and knowing what is best/right. Or when I do think I
do, then I doubt and second guess myself too much.
My daughter is 4.5. So of course I remember that the half years are the most
challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for a
book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr. Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.
I didn't hand over complete autonomy, if anything she wants more than I am
comfortable with giving at this stage AND more than I think she can safely
handle. She seems to have no ability to see danger realistically at times. I
can't think of an example, but she seems to think her will to do something
safely is enough you know? Oh well cavities are one, I explain why brushing
our teeth is important and that without proper care we could get cavities,
she refuses to brush and then promises me she won't get a cavity, like she
can control it with her will.
It turns out at the end of the day, she was hungry. But no effort to help
her to get food into her was welcome, it was rejected with screaming. So no
matter how much I talk to her about the value of protein on moods, the value
of food on moods, she isn't getting it and if too busy playing or having fun
will reject food until her mood is unbearable to all around her and she is
miserable as well, but then she continues to reject (even more strongly) any
suggestion of what might fix it. Finally she ate a HUGE turkey dinner
(thanksgiving here) and became Mr. Hyde again:)
Anyone have any thoughts on that one? I will try to talk to her about it
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic. How do I talk to her about these things without getting a
preachy sound or just using too many words, hard to learn to shorten things
up at this age:)
Thanks for your thoughts and support,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Virginia Glasser [mailto:virginia@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Wow. You poor thing. I can totally empathize with you and wish I could help.
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Thank you. You are right, follow your heart, I just have a hard time hearing
my own heart sometimes and knowing what is best/right. Or when I do think I
do, then I doubt and second guess myself too much.
My daughter is 4.5. So of course I remember that the half years are the most
challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for a
book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr. Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.
I didn't hand over complete autonomy, if anything she wants more than I am
comfortable with giving at this stage AND more than I think she can safely
handle. She seems to have no ability to see danger realistically at times. I
can't think of an example, but she seems to think her will to do something
safely is enough you know? Oh well cavities are one, I explain why brushing
our teeth is important and that without proper care we could get cavities,
she refuses to brush and then promises me she won't get a cavity, like she
can control it with her will.
It turns out at the end of the day, she was hungry. But no effort to help
her to get food into her was welcome, it was rejected with screaming. So no
matter how much I talk to her about the value of protein on moods, the value
of food on moods, she isn't getting it and if too busy playing or having fun
will reject food until her mood is unbearable to all around her and she is
miserable as well, but then she continues to reject (even more strongly) any
suggestion of what might fix it. Finally she ate a HUGE turkey dinner
(thanksgiving here) and became Mr. Hyde again:)
Anyone have any thoughts on that one? I will try to talk to her about it
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic. How do I talk to her about these things without getting a
preachy sound or just using too many words, hard to learn to shorten things
up at this age:)
Thanks for your thoughts and support,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Virginia Glasser [mailto:virginia@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Wow. You poor thing. I can totally empathize with you and wish I could help.
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
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Angela S
WOW... I do have personal boundaries, I have always been lousy at
establishing them with people and because of that have anger issues when
people don't recognize them.
-------------------------------------------
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
So what has changed if you didn't have many rules before? Is it that before
if she acted like that after you said no and sat down that you would have
given her a time out and now you don't? Tantrums can be difficult to watch,
but there is an alternative to just no too.
I think if you can nip these things in the bud and avoid the tantrum it
would be best. As you get better at seeing potential problems ahead of time
it'll be easier. I exercise in the basement every morning. Sometimes I ask
my kids if they want me to get them something before I go down. Other times
I just know they'll be hungry and I just bring a couple things to the living
room for them to eat and drink if they get hungry. I make sure they are all
settled in so I have less of a chance of getting interrupted. They have
changed their minds in the past and so I try to be aware that they might not
know they are going to get hungry soon and plan for that myself. I even
pour drinks and put them in the fridge or on the arm of the couch next to
them. (just in case) Try to remember when she last ate and plan
accordingly.
Another option would be to tell her "yes" you'll get something for her, in a
few minutes. (Maybe next commercial) You might even suggest she get a
string cheese (or whatever) out of the fridge to hold her over till you get
her something. My kids at that age didn't like to do for themselves in the
food department. They just plain liked to be waited on and I didn't mind,
as long as they were a little patient with me.
Is she getting all the rest she needs? No bedtime to me isn't about just
waiting till they fall down in their tracks exhausted. It's about watching
their body signals and going to bed when they are tired instead of at some
set time. I still lie down with my girls while they go to sleep so sleep
isn't something that is seen as terrible. They don't feel like they are
missing anything and they feel secure and safe. Provide snacks often if she
gets hungry often.
Talking things through works, but not quite as quickly as punishment. It is
amazing now to watch my two dd's work out something on their own now at ages
8 and 9 after watching me model it and help them work out things for so many
years. Sometimes they come up with a better solution than I ever could have
dreamed of.
I'd get that four year old book you mentioned. Sometimes it's a help just
to know that it's a stage and they'll most likely outgrow the issues that
are bothering you. You can go to Amazon and put in the title and read
several pages on-line. Look around the site and you'll see a link to click
about half way down the page.
Got to run. We have an early day today.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
establishing them with people and because of that have anger issues when
people don't recognize them.
-------------------------------------------
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
So what has changed if you didn't have many rules before? Is it that before
if she acted like that after you said no and sat down that you would have
given her a time out and now you don't? Tantrums can be difficult to watch,
but there is an alternative to just no too.
I think if you can nip these things in the bud and avoid the tantrum it
would be best. As you get better at seeing potential problems ahead of time
it'll be easier. I exercise in the basement every morning. Sometimes I ask
my kids if they want me to get them something before I go down. Other times
I just know they'll be hungry and I just bring a couple things to the living
room for them to eat and drink if they get hungry. I make sure they are all
settled in so I have less of a chance of getting interrupted. They have
changed their minds in the past and so I try to be aware that they might not
know they are going to get hungry soon and plan for that myself. I even
pour drinks and put them in the fridge or on the arm of the couch next to
them. (just in case) Try to remember when she last ate and plan
accordingly.
Another option would be to tell her "yes" you'll get something for her, in a
few minutes. (Maybe next commercial) You might even suggest she get a
string cheese (or whatever) out of the fridge to hold her over till you get
her something. My kids at that age didn't like to do for themselves in the
food department. They just plain liked to be waited on and I didn't mind,
as long as they were a little patient with me.
Is she getting all the rest she needs? No bedtime to me isn't about just
waiting till they fall down in their tracks exhausted. It's about watching
their body signals and going to bed when they are tired instead of at some
set time. I still lie down with my girls while they go to sleep so sleep
isn't something that is seen as terrible. They don't feel like they are
missing anything and they feel secure and safe. Provide snacks often if she
gets hungry often.
Talking things through works, but not quite as quickly as punishment. It is
amazing now to watch my two dd's work out something on their own now at ages
8 and 9 after watching me model it and help them work out things for so many
years. Sometimes they come up with a better solution than I ever could have
dreamed of.
I'd get that four year old book you mentioned. Sometimes it's a help just
to know that it's a stage and they'll most likely outgrow the issues that
are bothering you. You can go to Amazon and put in the title and read
several pages on-line. Look around the site and you'll see a link to click
about half way down the page.
Got to run. We have an early day today.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachel and Carson Milgroom
Sherri-Lee-
First off, (((hugs))) to you and a big acknowledgement for bringing this to
the list. I keep bringing up NVC, but this part of your message really
reminds me of something.
1st stage - Emotional slavery: we see ourselves responsible for other's
feelings.
2nd stage- "Obnoxious": we feel angry; we no longer want to be responsible
for others' feelings
3rd stage - Emotional liberation: we take responsibility for our intentions
and actions
Sounds like your little one is in stage 2. I know I live most of my life in
stage 1 (because I was taught to be a 'good girl'), and am doing my best to
move beyond it. Now that I have this NVC model to work with, I can see how
at earlier points in my life I have vacilated between stage 1 and 2, and
just recently was talking to a longtime friend and my sister about how much
"nicer" I am now, but it is a REAL nice, one that reflects my spending more
time in stage 3 than ever before.
My personal point of view is that we're all sort of stymied when our kids
don't do the 'good kid' thing because we're still feeling enslaved to what
others (even strangers!) think is appropriate behavior. My older ds has
always been more challenging, and I think it can be a really hard transition
for someone who has always had an easy kid to have to deal with the changes.
As someone else said in their response, a new sibling is a really big deal,
and that may be behind some of these problems too.
is a threat-based system. One thing we did here was say "we're not going to
do forcing (a word my then 4yo ds could understand) anymore. Threats are a
kind of forcing and we're not going to do them." So we stopped. Does our
ds still make threats? Sure. He'd had a lot of experience with them, and
frankly I am still catching myself making them. I occasionally remind him
that "x sounds like a threat, which is a forcing", but now when he makes a
threat I mostly just hear it as his attempt to gain some power in the
situation. If he were feeling OK he'd not need to do that, so how can I try
to identify the underlying need. I do not think I need to follow his
demand, but I do need to see if I can address the underlying need.
think part of the problem is age related - they're interested in things that
are above their skill level, and they seek the stimulation of having an
adult to introduce them to and help them with the more advanced
concepts/skills that they crave. It is hard, and it has made me see how
much interaction he really needs (where is that village anyway!). One thing
we do is to have a few hours a week where he has a mother's helper who will
play with him and help satisfy that need. You know, most people send their
kids to school with a sigh of relief - kids really do require a lot of time,
energy, and interaction.
transition, but the more we respect our children's needs, the more we can
create a base of understanding. I was at a party the other night that was
full of young families, and a 9yo girl was eating some chips and her father
yells at her across the room "No more chips for you." I felt embarrassed
for her, and really shocked. It helped me to realize how far we've come in
our family, as my dh and I both felt uncomfortable with it.
As far as the food thing goes, I think that sometimes learning is messy. If
she wanted to finger paint, you'd expect mess and prepare for it by
providing a good place to do it. She's learning about what her body needs
(which may not actually be protein, I've found, even though I love protein
myself) and that process may be a bit messy (which looks like meltdowns,
etc.) I'd much rather have a child who spends ages 4 and 5 figuring out
food through trial and error with support and information than have one who
at 45 is still trying to figure it out with little success, like most people
I know whose food choices were limited, monitored and controlled.
I have a feeling you really do see value in the lifestyle we're discussing
here, because you've stayed around this list for a long time. Hope some of
what I wrote is helpful to you, as I can see this moment in time is really a
struggle for your family.
Rachel
PS - I think when we first start saying "yes" we come up against all of our
fears/doubts/etc. and it can feel really overwhelming. It is a *process*
of getting to a place where the whole family is getting our needs met. I
know I am constantly working on making sure I am getting my needs met so I
can be calm and available. I liked the suggestion that someone made about
saying "Yes, I'll do that when I finish my meal." That way you still get to
say yes to her and to yourself.
First off, (((hugs))) to you and a big acknowledgement for bringing this to
the list. I keep bringing up NVC, but this part of your message really
reminds me of something.
>In the NVC he writes about the following three stages:
> Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
> petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
> miserable to be around.
>
1st stage - Emotional slavery: we see ourselves responsible for other's
feelings.
2nd stage- "Obnoxious": we feel angry; we no longer want to be responsible
for others' feelings
3rd stage - Emotional liberation: we take responsibility for our intentions
and actions
Sounds like your little one is in stage 2. I know I live most of my life in
stage 1 (because I was taught to be a 'good girl'), and am doing my best to
move beyond it. Now that I have this NVC model to work with, I can see how
at earlier points in my life I have vacilated between stage 1 and 2, and
just recently was talking to a longtime friend and my sister about how much
"nicer" I am now, but it is a REAL nice, one that reflects my spending more
time in stage 3 than ever before.
My personal point of view is that we're all sort of stymied when our kids
don't do the 'good kid' thing because we're still feeling enslaved to what
others (even strangers!) think is appropriate behavior. My older ds has
always been more challenging, and I think it can be a really hard transition
for someone who has always had an easy kid to have to deal with the changes.
As someone else said in their response, a new sibling is a really big deal,
and that may be behind some of these problems too.
>If we want to do anythingLike it or not, any parenting philosophy that uses parental power/authority
> for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
> wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
> (put
> in your threat here).
is a threat-based system. One thing we did here was say "we're not going to
do forcing (a word my then 4yo ds could understand) anymore. Threats are a
kind of forcing and we're not going to do them." So we stopped. Does our
ds still make threats? Sure. He'd had a lot of experience with them, and
frankly I am still catching myself making them. I occasionally remind him
that "x sounds like a threat, which is a forcing", but now when he makes a
threat I mostly just hear it as his attempt to gain some power in the
situation. If he were feeling OK he'd not need to do that, so how can I try
to identify the underlying need. I do not think I need to follow his
demand, but I do need to see if I can address the underlying need.
> If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wantsI am not sure what to say about this, except that we have this here too. I
> to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
> of
> us or someone else to be there playing with her.
think part of the problem is age related - they're interested in things that
are above their skill level, and they seek the stimulation of having an
adult to introduce them to and help them with the more advanced
concepts/skills that they crave. It is hard, and it has made me see how
much interaction he really needs (where is that village anyway!). One thing
we do is to have a few hours a week where he has a mother's helper who will
play with him and help satisfy that need. You know, most people send their
kids to school with a sigh of relief - kids really do require a lot of time,
energy, and interaction.
> The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyleI hope you don't, for you and for your dd. It is HARD to make this
> path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
> reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
> have
> a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
> for anyone else.
transition, but the more we respect our children's needs, the more we can
create a base of understanding. I was at a party the other night that was
full of young families, and a 9yo girl was eating some chips and her father
yells at her across the room "No more chips for you." I felt embarrassed
for her, and really shocked. It helped me to realize how far we've come in
our family, as my dh and I both felt uncomfortable with it.
As far as the food thing goes, I think that sometimes learning is messy. If
she wanted to finger paint, you'd expect mess and prepare for it by
providing a good place to do it. She's learning about what her body needs
(which may not actually be protein, I've found, even though I love protein
myself) and that process may be a bit messy (which looks like meltdowns,
etc.) I'd much rather have a child who spends ages 4 and 5 figuring out
food through trial and error with support and information than have one who
at 45 is still trying to figure it out with little success, like most people
I know whose food choices were limited, monitored and controlled.
I have a feeling you really do see value in the lifestyle we're discussing
here, because you've stayed around this list for a long time. Hope some of
what I wrote is helpful to you, as I can see this moment in time is really a
struggle for your family.
Rachel
PS - I think when we first start saying "yes" we come up against all of our
fears/doubts/etc. and it can feel really overwhelming. It is a *process*
of getting to a place where the whole family is getting our needs met. I
know I am constantly working on making sure I am getting my needs met so I
can be calm and available. I liked the suggestion that someone made about
saying "Yes, I'll do that when I finish my meal." That way you still get to
say yes to her and to yourself.
Wendy E
I don't have any answers sherri. I have a challenging one here
myself. The one thing that strikes me here is that there are lots
of changes going on for this little one...a new sibling on the
horizon was a big change for my guy. Also just basic temperament
and developmental stages come into play. I'm not saying that
changing your parenting style has had no role, good or bad, in her
behavior. I just would look at other things too. Parenting is
hard, no matter how you do it. And it's no easy task dealing with a
challenging child while you are pregnant. Hope things get
better...and I hope you find some peace.
Wendy
PS...I found "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka
to be pretty helpful.
--- In [email protected], Sherri-Lee Pressman
<sherri--lee@s...> wrote:
myself. The one thing that strikes me here is that there are lots
of changes going on for this little one...a new sibling on the
horizon was a big change for my guy. Also just basic temperament
and developmental stages come into play. I'm not saying that
changing your parenting style has had no role, good or bad, in her
behavior. I just would look at other things too. Parenting is
hard, no matter how you do it. And it's no easy task dealing with a
challenging child while you are pregnant. Hope things get
better...and I hope you find some peace.
Wendy
PS...I found "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka
to be pretty helpful.
--- In [email protected], Sherri-Lee Pressman
<sherri--lee@s...> wrote:
> Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She hasbecome
> petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious,inpatient and
> miserable to be around.sister who are
>
> I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and
> visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before Istarted reading
> about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had achild who was
> socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time.
J. Stauffer
<<<I will try to talk to her about it
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic.>>>>
I would suggest quit talking to her about it so much. She sounds like a child that is into her head and not her body (not aware of hunger until out of control, etc.). Here are my recommendations:
1) Bring her food and drink throughout the day. Say something sweet like "I thought you might like these" or "I was thinking of you when I made these". If she eats it great, if not great. Don't ask her if she wants it, just set it down next to her.
2) Spend time giving her massage or just rubbing her back or gently scratching her scalp, letting her hair run through your fingers. It will help her be more aware of her body if done regularly.
3) Remember that cavities aren't dangerous....they are a pain in the butt but not dangerous <grin>. It can be hard for young children to see the connection between oral hygiene and cavities but they can probably make a better connection between brushing and fresh breath. Find out why she doesn't want to brush (she might not like the paste, she might just be seeing how far she can take this "yes" thing).
4) Unschooling is hardest on the parent. You have to be very, very clear on your own personal boundaries. Years ago, when we first started, I kept hearing about "Kids will learn to regulate themselves" so I thought that meant to give the kids elbow room, mention that I didn't want them jumping on my bed and they would regulate themselves. Didn't happen at my house. The kids went nuts and I was very, very resentful. We now have only one rule at our house "You cannot cause harm, period." There are times when I make the kids stop what they are doing whether they want to or not because what they are doing is causing harm to someone. I would also make an adult stop something if they were causing harm.
Example: We had just moved to Houston from the boondocks and Zach (5) was shooting his bb gun into a tree between 2 houses across the street. He was sure he wouldn't hit the house. (With his aim, I was sure he wouldn't either....he's really good.) But people already looked at us weird for the kids being out playing all the time, we didn't need the police being called because people saw a 5yo aiming a bb gun in the direction of their house. I gave him lots of alternatives but told him that what he was doing was absolutely not an option.
Zach hates to brush his teeth so he usually didn't. Grossed me out but I kept out of it other than to talk to him at times about how it can be important. Then he got a bad cavity. Went to the dentist who pulled several of Zach's teeth. The dentist told me that Zach has genetically bad enamel and if he wanted to still have teeth at 20 he needed to change his diet and his oral hygiene. So it was no longer "there MIGHT be a problem", it was right there. Zach's choices were infringing on the rest of us (costing us lots of money, perhaps getting us in trouble with legal if the dentist wanted to cause problems), so his right to choose stopped where it infringed on the rights of others.
Not everyone will agree with that, but that is how it works in our house.
julie S.
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic.>>>>
I would suggest quit talking to her about it so much. She sounds like a child that is into her head and not her body (not aware of hunger until out of control, etc.). Here are my recommendations:
1) Bring her food and drink throughout the day. Say something sweet like "I thought you might like these" or "I was thinking of you when I made these". If she eats it great, if not great. Don't ask her if she wants it, just set it down next to her.
2) Spend time giving her massage or just rubbing her back or gently scratching her scalp, letting her hair run through your fingers. It will help her be more aware of her body if done regularly.
3) Remember that cavities aren't dangerous....they are a pain in the butt but not dangerous <grin>. It can be hard for young children to see the connection between oral hygiene and cavities but they can probably make a better connection between brushing and fresh breath. Find out why she doesn't want to brush (she might not like the paste, she might just be seeing how far she can take this "yes" thing).
4) Unschooling is hardest on the parent. You have to be very, very clear on your own personal boundaries. Years ago, when we first started, I kept hearing about "Kids will learn to regulate themselves" so I thought that meant to give the kids elbow room, mention that I didn't want them jumping on my bed and they would regulate themselves. Didn't happen at my house. The kids went nuts and I was very, very resentful. We now have only one rule at our house "You cannot cause harm, period." There are times when I make the kids stop what they are doing whether they want to or not because what they are doing is causing harm to someone. I would also make an adult stop something if they were causing harm.
Example: We had just moved to Houston from the boondocks and Zach (5) was shooting his bb gun into a tree between 2 houses across the street. He was sure he wouldn't hit the house. (With his aim, I was sure he wouldn't either....he's really good.) But people already looked at us weird for the kids being out playing all the time, we didn't need the police being called because people saw a 5yo aiming a bb gun in the direction of their house. I gave him lots of alternatives but told him that what he was doing was absolutely not an option.
Zach hates to brush his teeth so he usually didn't. Grossed me out but I kept out of it other than to talk to him at times about how it can be important. Then he got a bad cavity. Went to the dentist who pulled several of Zach's teeth. The dentist told me that Zach has genetically bad enamel and if he wanted to still have teeth at 20 he needed to change his diet and his oral hygiene. So it was no longer "there MIGHT be a problem", it was right there. Zach's choices were infringing on the rest of us (costing us lots of money, perhaps getting us in trouble with legal if the dentist wanted to cause problems), so his right to choose stopped where it infringed on the rights of others.
Not everyone will agree with that, but that is how it works in our house.
julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 4:47 AM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Virginia,
Thank you. You are right, follow your heart, I just have a hard time hearing
my own heart sometimes and knowing what is best/right. Or when I do think I
do, then I doubt and second guess myself too much.
My daughter is 4.5. So of course I remember that the half years are the most
challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for a
book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr. Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.
I didn't hand over complete autonomy, if anything she wants more than I am
comfortable with giving at this stage AND more than I think she can safely
handle. She seems to have no ability to see danger realistically at times. I
can't think of an example, but she seems to think her will to do something
safely is enough you know? Oh well cavities are one, I explain why brushing
our teeth is important and that without proper care we could get cavities,
she refuses to brush and then promises me she won't get a cavity, like she
can control it with her will.
It turns out at the end of the day, she was hungry. But no effort to help
her to get food into her was welcome, it was rejected with screaming. So no
matter how much I talk to her about the value of protein on moods, the value
of food on moods, she isn't getting it and if too busy playing or having fun
will reject food until her mood is unbearable to all around her and she is
miserable as well, but then she continues to reject (even more strongly) any
suggestion of what might fix it. Finally she ate a HUGE turkey dinner
(thanksgiving here) and became Mr. Hyde again:)
Anyone have any thoughts on that one? I will try to talk to her about it
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic. How do I talk to her about these things without getting a
preachy sound or just using too many words, hard to learn to shorten things
up at this age:)
Thanks for your thoughts and support,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Virginia Glasser [mailto:virginia@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Wow. You poor thing. I can totally empathize with you and wish I could help.
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things. no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
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In a message dated 10/11/2004 7:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
******************************************************************************
*********************
I have an almost always unschooled 4 year old daughter and she sounds alot
like yours! It sorta came from nowhere. We never know from one minute to the
next what she'll be like. I cannot say we've been terrific at dealing with
it, but we're working on it.
Hang in there! I think it has alot to do with age, and it will give you
great practice at patience! :)
Oh, one more point. I notice with my children that sometimes they act worse
when I am at my mothering best. I read an explanation once that made sense
to me, something like they don't necessarily feel deserving of love in the
moment. I must say with my son, most of that behavior was around 4 YO, I'm
still in the middle of it with my daughter.
Hang in there, Sherri-Lee!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
game-enthusiast@... writes:
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
******************************************************************************
*********************
I have an almost always unschooled 4 year old daughter and she sounds alot
like yours! It sorta came from nowhere. We never know from one minute to the
next what she'll be like. I cannot say we've been terrific at dealing with
it, but we're working on it.
Hang in there! I think it has alot to do with age, and it will give you
great practice at patience! :)
Oh, one more point. I notice with my children that sometimes they act worse
when I am at my mothering best. I read an explanation once that made sense
to me, something like they don't necessarily feel deserving of love in the
moment. I must say with my son, most of that behavior was around 4 YO, I'm
still in the middle of it with my daughter.
Hang in there, Sherri-Lee!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kiersten Pasciak
Have you read any of the books by Faber and Mazlish?
("Siblings Without Rivalry","How to Talk so Kids will Listen and
Listen so Kids will Talk", or "Liberated Parents, Liberated
Children")
I know some unschoolers feel that the methods are more controlling
than they would like, BUT I think they are a very good foundation
for how to talk respectfully and positivey to your children while
maintaining your own boundaries.
I gained so much from these books, especially "Liberated Parents..."
It gave me the ability to see that when I said "yes" without meaning
it, I was often acting resentful and angry after.
I learned that it is "ok" to tell your children how you are feeling
when you are not ready to do what they are asking. (In a respectful
way)
It also helped me identify what they might be feeling and to help
them express their emotions. This has helped turn our family around!
We started out with "Frustrated". When I felt overwhelmed, I would
say "I am FRUSTRATED!" and growl like a lion. Just getting out my
own stress in positive ways helped me give them a signal that I
needed a break and also let them in a way to express their own
frustration.
We moved on to "ANGRY", "SAD", "SCARED", etc.
I looked for ways to acceptably express all kinds of emotions for me
and for them.
For example, if Jacob is feeling angry and agressive, I let him poke
me on my hand or hit a pillow or whatever we can come up with. When
he is allowed the freedom to actually hit something without hurting
anyone, the feeling gets resolved very quickly.
To be fair, it has taken me months of work to slowly undo the old
way I talked to them and to creatively come up with a solution for
each new problem that arises. It is worth it!!!
I do maintain my own boundaries. I have no problem telling them "I
don't like to be asked in that tone, when you ask politely, I feel
happier doing what you want" This does not mean I make them ask
nicely before I do something, I just remind them that I am Happier
when they do. Same thing when we leave somewhere fun, I will tell
them "I know it is hard to leave when you are having fun" "When you
get ready to go so nicely, it makes me WANT to bring you back"
I hope things get better soon for you!
Take care of you as best as you can.
Make sure you are getting what YOU need.
A happy mom is key to a happy family!!!
It is hard to be happy when you feel tired and put upon.
Kiersten
Personal disclaimer:
Kids are 16 months and turning 3, so my kids are not as old as your
daughter :) Who knows what we have in store......
("Siblings Without Rivalry","How to Talk so Kids will Listen and
Listen so Kids will Talk", or "Liberated Parents, Liberated
Children")
I know some unschoolers feel that the methods are more controlling
than they would like, BUT I think they are a very good foundation
for how to talk respectfully and positivey to your children while
maintaining your own boundaries.
I gained so much from these books, especially "Liberated Parents..."
It gave me the ability to see that when I said "yes" without meaning
it, I was often acting resentful and angry after.
I learned that it is "ok" to tell your children how you are feeling
when you are not ready to do what they are asking. (In a respectful
way)
It also helped me identify what they might be feeling and to help
them express their emotions. This has helped turn our family around!
We started out with "Frustrated". When I felt overwhelmed, I would
say "I am FRUSTRATED!" and growl like a lion. Just getting out my
own stress in positive ways helped me give them a signal that I
needed a break and also let them in a way to express their own
frustration.
We moved on to "ANGRY", "SAD", "SCARED", etc.
I looked for ways to acceptably express all kinds of emotions for me
and for them.
For example, if Jacob is feeling angry and agressive, I let him poke
me on my hand or hit a pillow or whatever we can come up with. When
he is allowed the freedom to actually hit something without hurting
anyone, the feeling gets resolved very quickly.
To be fair, it has taken me months of work to slowly undo the old
way I talked to them and to creatively come up with a solution for
each new problem that arises. It is worth it!!!
I do maintain my own boundaries. I have no problem telling them "I
don't like to be asked in that tone, when you ask politely, I feel
happier doing what you want" This does not mean I make them ask
nicely before I do something, I just remind them that I am Happier
when they do. Same thing when we leave somewhere fun, I will tell
them "I know it is hard to leave when you are having fun" "When you
get ready to go so nicely, it makes me WANT to bring you back"
I hope things get better soon for you!
Take care of you as best as you can.
Make sure you are getting what YOU need.
A happy mom is key to a happy family!!!
It is hard to be happy when you feel tired and put upon.
Kiersten
Personal disclaimer:
Kids are 16 months and turning 3, so my kids are not as old as your
daughter :) Who knows what we have in store......
> > Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. Shehas
> become
> > petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious,
> inpatient and
> > miserable to be around.
> >
> > I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and
> sister who are
> > visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I
> started reading
> > about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a
> child who was
> > socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time.
Danielle Conger
Sherry, I can't remember if any one has suggested the book _Raising Your
Spirited Child_, but I think you might find it really helpful. I'm
rereading for my Sam (4), and I came across this part that immediately
brought you to mind:
"Spirited kids who are irregular by nature are not intentionally trying
to upset their parents. Their bodies are not easily scheduled into a
predicatable pattern or rhythm. If you have marked a 4 or 5 you can
expect to work much harder at establishing regular routines in your
household. You can expect a child who isn't hungry at dinner but is
hungry the moment you put the dishes away. It's her temperament that
causes this behavior, not her disrespect for you. When you understand
that, it is easier to work out a mutually acceptable solution."
At any rate, I just thought this book might be really helpful for you
and your daughter right now. When's the baby due?
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Spirited Child_, but I think you might find it really helpful. I'm
rereading for my Sam (4), and I came across this part that immediately
brought you to mind:
"Spirited kids who are irregular by nature are not intentionally trying
to upset their parents. Their bodies are not easily scheduled into a
predicatable pattern or rhythm. If you have marked a 4 or 5 you can
expect to work much harder at establishing regular routines in your
household. You can expect a child who isn't hungry at dinner but is
hungry the moment you put the dishes away. It's her temperament that
causes this behavior, not her disrespect for you. When you understand
that, it is easier to work out a mutually acceptable solution."
At any rate, I just thought this book might be really helpful for you
and your daughter right now. When's the baby due?
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
J. Stauffer
Something else that might help....
Sherri described her child's behavior as abusive. I don't think moms just stoically tolerating abusive behavior while trying their best to help a child is modelling what the parents want to model to their children. If our children learn to read, clean house, be helpful people by watching us model those behaviors....don't they learn to tolerate abuse by watching us tolerate abuse?
I am not saying to be abusive back, but to gently, firmly stand up to abuse and model for the child how to handle situations where one party is being abusive.
My now 5yo, Dan, can get abusive. He can be wonderfully sweet and gentle and at other times, he yells, kicks, calls names, etc.. We talk during calm times about how people don't like to do things for people who are being mean to them, that people can't always even understand what he wants if he is being mean, etc.. I use people because Dan also gets abusive with his siblings.
I thought long and hard about how to handle this. I didn't want to punish him....I didn't want to model tolerating abuse...I couldn't allow him to be abusive to his siblings. So I thought about what I would do with an abusive adult....I would tell them cut it out and if they didn't I would leave the room, ask them to leave, whatever....but I wouldn't just stand there and take it.
So with Dan I did lots of things. I would ask him to speak nicely to me, I would give him a hug, I would leave the room, I would rub his back, I would do whatever seemed appropriate at the time....If I was offering suggestions and he refused them all and continued to berate me, I would say "let me know when you decide" and I would leave.
After lots of work, Dan started to calm down when I tell him "I will gladly help you but don't be mean to me." Now, I just turn around and give him a look, not mean but like "I can't believe you just said that to me" and he stops it.
Just a thought.
julie S.
Sherri described her child's behavior as abusive. I don't think moms just stoically tolerating abusive behavior while trying their best to help a child is modelling what the parents want to model to their children. If our children learn to read, clean house, be helpful people by watching us model those behaviors....don't they learn to tolerate abuse by watching us tolerate abuse?
I am not saying to be abusive back, but to gently, firmly stand up to abuse and model for the child how to handle situations where one party is being abusive.
My now 5yo, Dan, can get abusive. He can be wonderfully sweet and gentle and at other times, he yells, kicks, calls names, etc.. We talk during calm times about how people don't like to do things for people who are being mean to them, that people can't always even understand what he wants if he is being mean, etc.. I use people because Dan also gets abusive with his siblings.
I thought long and hard about how to handle this. I didn't want to punish him....I didn't want to model tolerating abuse...I couldn't allow him to be abusive to his siblings. So I thought about what I would do with an abusive adult....I would tell them cut it out and if they didn't I would leave the room, ask them to leave, whatever....but I wouldn't just stand there and take it.
So with Dan I did lots of things. I would ask him to speak nicely to me, I would give him a hug, I would leave the room, I would rub his back, I would do whatever seemed appropriate at the time....If I was offering suggestions and he refused them all and continued to berate me, I would say "let me know when you decide" and I would leave.
After lots of work, Dan started to calm down when I tell him "I will gladly help you but don't be mean to me." Now, I just turn around and give him a look, not mean but like "I can't believe you just said that to me" and he stops it.
Just a thought.
julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie530@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
In a message dated 10/11/2004 7:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
******************************************************************************
*********************
I have an almost always unschooled 4 year old daughter and she sounds alot
like yours! It sorta came from nowhere. We never know from one minute to the
next what she'll be like. I cannot say we've been terrific at dealing with
it, but we're working on it.
Hang in there! I think it has alot to do with age, and it will give you
great practice at patience! :)
Oh, one more point. I notice with my children that sometimes they act worse
when I am at my mothering best. I read an explanation once that made sense
to me, something like they don't necessarily feel deserving of love in the
moment. I must say with my son, most of that behavior was around 4 YO, I'm
still in the middle of it with my daughter.
Hang in there, Sherri-Lee!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want me toDoing almost a "V-8 slap" Your daughter is 4. I never thought any of my children were going to live to see 5. 4 was the hardest age with each of my children. People whined about 2yo's but I LOVED my 2yo's. It was the 4yo's that I wanted to call HRS and tell them that someone abandoned a child on my front porch!
> get you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I don't
> really want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am not
> hungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get me
> XXX?" I would say "I just sat down and don't want to get up, why don't you
> get it?"
How to handle the above situation? Be exact with her. Add to your "Before I sit down" sentence "If you need something after I will sit down, you will have to get it yourself. I'm tired and need to put my feet up and rest." With a new baby she is going to have to start doing more things for herself. When you have a nursling there just isn't any "Let me put the baby down and do for you" That doesn't mean that they are exluded because you are caring for the baby, but that they have to do more things for themselves like getting a drink or snack or wiping their own bottoms.
In a family, *everyone* has rights and that includes mommies!
Michelle
Steven Cox
Hi Sherri,
Its awful to be a tyrant as most parents who parent coercively know in there gut. Your little girl must be feeling pretty terrible to be so angry so much. (I would surmise that there's no such thing as a happy dictator). My oldest daughter went through a similiar period when I let go of lots of control at 4.5 and I remember dreading her waking up each morning. Children know when you do not love them unconditionationally. Or at least it feels to them like they are not loveable when they act so badly. It can also bring up for a parent all the feelings of powerlessness as that they had as a child--when they witness a very powerful child.
Some things that I gleaned from recently listening to Naomi Aldort's tapes "Trusting our Children, Trusting Ourselves": that its unrealistic to expect children to NOT be selfish. They are egocentric and though they have may be very altruistic at times, they should be self-centered. That doesn't mean you should be a doormat; but to state your needs and desires with calm and optimism (no small order, I know!) Also that "goody-goody" children are the most worrisome: they have given over their power in return for praise and affection. She also tells this beautiful story about her own son (then 3 I think), who messed up all their clothes in the bedroom for two months (and all Naomi said was "Oh No!" and would clean them up) so that he could feel his power.
When there is conflict and a level of anxiety about this conflict, I think we instinctively want to return to what we know--and of course for most of us it means some type of coercion and defensiveness. I think that if you focus on her feelings and yours (and don't get to wordy about it with her) and not become scared that she is going to be a horrible brat her entire life (I know that I can easily fall down this slippery slope of catastrophizing), you'll beable to connect with her. My guess is that there is a of lack of trust between you: she doesn't trust that you really want to help her that you just want her to be good (again I'm just guessing). Perhaps you need to reconnect with what you love about your daughter, not to make her behave better, but in such a way that you can communicate that you really love her and trust her.
I think you're really brave to write to this list and I wish I had had this kind of support when my daughter was having a similiar hard time.
Leslie in Mass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Its awful to be a tyrant as most parents who parent coercively know in there gut. Your little girl must be feeling pretty terrible to be so angry so much. (I would surmise that there's no such thing as a happy dictator). My oldest daughter went through a similiar period when I let go of lots of control at 4.5 and I remember dreading her waking up each morning. Children know when you do not love them unconditionationally. Or at least it feels to them like they are not loveable when they act so badly. It can also bring up for a parent all the feelings of powerlessness as that they had as a child--when they witness a very powerful child.
Some things that I gleaned from recently listening to Naomi Aldort's tapes "Trusting our Children, Trusting Ourselves": that its unrealistic to expect children to NOT be selfish. They are egocentric and though they have may be very altruistic at times, they should be self-centered. That doesn't mean you should be a doormat; but to state your needs and desires with calm and optimism (no small order, I know!) Also that "goody-goody" children are the most worrisome: they have given over their power in return for praise and affection. She also tells this beautiful story about her own son (then 3 I think), who messed up all their clothes in the bedroom for two months (and all Naomi said was "Oh No!" and would clean them up) so that he could feel his power.
When there is conflict and a level of anxiety about this conflict, I think we instinctively want to return to what we know--and of course for most of us it means some type of coercion and defensiveness. I think that if you focus on her feelings and yours (and don't get to wordy about it with her) and not become scared that she is going to be a horrible brat her entire life (I know that I can easily fall down this slippery slope of catastrophizing), you'll beable to connect with her. My guess is that there is a of lack of trust between you: she doesn't trust that you really want to help her that you just want her to be good (again I'm just guessing). Perhaps you need to reconnect with what you love about your daughter, not to make her behave better, but in such a way that you can communicate that you really love her and trust her.
I think you're really brave to write to this list and I wish I had had this kind of support when my daughter was having a similiar hard time.
Leslie in Mass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want me
toget you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I
don'treally want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am
nothungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get
me XXX?" >>>>
When Jayn does this exact thing, which is pretty often, I ask her why she
can't get it herself - in a genuine way. She always says her legs, or arms,
are "too floppy". It's kinda cute. Of course I am not extremely pregnant so
that makes it only about a gazillion times easier for me to get up and get
whatever it is. Sometimes I tell her I am too floppy.
There are times that the answer has to be "no" or "not right now", and
sometimes there is a firestorm of resentment to ridden out when that
happens. I find that trying to short circuit that process only prolongs the
angry outburst with Jayn.
I think if Jayn were being obnoxious when we went out, I would take that as
a signal that we should be staying in more.
Have you shown her any photographic material or videos about the developing
baby inside you? I wonder if she has any kind of realistic notion about what
is going on in there.
Good luck with your delivery, it must be any time now.
Robyn L. Coburn
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toget you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I
don'treally want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am
nothungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get
me XXX?" >>>>
When Jayn does this exact thing, which is pretty often, I ask her why she
can't get it herself - in a genuine way. She always says her legs, or arms,
are "too floppy". It's kinda cute. Of course I am not extremely pregnant so
that makes it only about a gazillion times easier for me to get up and get
whatever it is. Sometimes I tell her I am too floppy.
There are times that the answer has to be "no" or "not right now", and
sometimes there is a firestorm of resentment to ridden out when that
happens. I find that trying to short circuit that process only prolongs the
angry outburst with Jayn.
I think if Jayn were being obnoxious when we went out, I would take that as
a signal that we should be staying in more.
Have you shown her any photographic material or videos about the developing
baby inside you? I wonder if she has any kind of realistic notion about what
is going on in there.
Good luck with your delivery, it must be any time now.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<My daughter is 4.5. So of course I remember that the half years are the
most challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for
a book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr. Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.>>>>
Sherri,
I have a spare copy of the Gessell Institute book "Child Behavior from Birth
to Ten". I'd be happy to mail it to you, as I am done with it, if you send
me you address off list. It talks about the kind of cyclic developmental
shifts you mention. Just ignore most of the stuff about "getting your child
to sleep", the "television" chapter (13) and the "school success" chapter
(14). The useful for unschoolers info is mostly in the early chapters.
Robyn L. Coburn
PS Everyone *please* trim your posts! (I'm thinking of adding this to my sig
line - not as inspirational as some quotes perhaps, but pragmatic at least)
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most challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for
a book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr. Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.>>>>
Sherri,
I have a spare copy of the Gessell Institute book "Child Behavior from Birth
to Ten". I'd be happy to mail it to you, as I am done with it, if you send
me you address off list. It talks about the kind of cyclic developmental
shifts you mention. Just ignore most of the stuff about "getting your child
to sleep", the "television" chapter (13) and the "school success" chapter
(14). The useful for unschoolers info is mostly in the early chapters.
Robyn L. Coburn
PS Everyone *please* trim your posts! (I'm thinking of adding this to my sig
line - not as inspirational as some quotes perhaps, but pragmatic at least)
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
Virginia Glasser
Just keep hanging in there Sherri. You are getting a lot of good information
to mull over and decide what course of action if any you need to take. :)
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 4:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Virginia,
Thank you. You are right, follow your heart, I just have a hard time
hearing
my own heart sometimes and knowing what is best/right. Or when I do think
I
do, then I doubt and second guess myself too much.
My daughter is 4.5. So of course I remember that the half years are the
most
challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for a
book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr.
Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.
I didn't hand over complete autonomy, if anything she wants more than I am
comfortable with giving at this stage AND more than I think she can safely
handle. She seems to have no ability to see danger realistically at times.
I
can't think of an example, but she seems to think her will to do something
safely is enough you know? Oh well cavities are one, I explain why
brushing
our teeth is important and that without proper care we could get cavities,
she refuses to brush and then promises me she won't get a cavity, like she
can control it with her will.
It turns out at the end of the day, she was hungry. But no effort to help
her to get food into her was welcome, it was rejected with screaming. So
no
matter how much I talk to her about the value of protein on moods, the
value
of food on moods, she isn't getting it and if too busy playing or having
fun
will reject food until her mood is unbearable to all around her and she is
miserable as well, but then she continues to reject (even more strongly)
any
suggestion of what might fix it. Finally she ate a HUGE turkey dinner
(thanksgiving here) and became Mr. Hyde again:)
Anyone have any thoughts on that one? I will try to talk to her about it
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic. How do I talk to her about these things without getting a
preachy sound or just using too many words, hard to learn to shorten
things
up at this age:)
Thanks for your thoughts and support,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Virginia Glasser [mailto:virginia@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Wow. You poor thing. I can totally empathize with you and wish I could
help.
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding
the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in
your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my
heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is
the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my
opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude
and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she
wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do
anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of
punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a
lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant
thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the
course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and
she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in
me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I
tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude
action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right
yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for
taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is
abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve
that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things.
no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells
me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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to mull over and decide what course of action if any you need to take. :)
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 4:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Virginia,
Thank you. You are right, follow your heart, I just have a hard time
hearing
my own heart sometimes and knowing what is best/right. Or when I do think
I
do, then I doubt and second guess myself too much.
My daughter is 4.5. So of course I remember that the half years are the
most
challenging and that might be part of it. I think there is a title for a
book I have been meaning to buy called "Your 4 year old friend or foe?"
which sounds about right. And recently I have been noticing and Dr.
Jekyll/
Mr. Hyde type shift in her on occasion. I also know that this is the age
where she is feeling her own autonomy and wanting more freedom and is in a
"come love and hug me, go away I am a big girl" stage.
I didn't hand over complete autonomy, if anything she wants more than I am
comfortable with giving at this stage AND more than I think she can safely
handle. She seems to have no ability to see danger realistically at times.
I
can't think of an example, but she seems to think her will to do something
safely is enough you know? Oh well cavities are one, I explain why
brushing
our teeth is important and that without proper care we could get cavities,
she refuses to brush and then promises me she won't get a cavity, like she
can control it with her will.
It turns out at the end of the day, she was hungry. But no effort to help
her to get food into her was welcome, it was rejected with screaming. So
no
matter how much I talk to her about the value of protein on moods, the
value
of food on moods, she isn't getting it and if too busy playing or having
fun
will reject food until her mood is unbearable to all around her and she is
miserable as well, but then she continues to reject (even more strongly)
any
suggestion of what might fix it. Finally she ate a HUGE turkey dinner
(thanksgiving here) and became Mr. Hyde again:)
Anyone have any thoughts on that one? I will try to talk to her about it
tomorrow and see if I can help her make the connection but am not overly
optimistic. How do I talk to her about these things without getting a
preachy sound or just using too many words, hard to learn to shorten
things
up at this age:)
Thanks for your thoughts and support,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Virginia Glasser [mailto:virginia@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Wow. You poor thing. I can totally empathize with you and wish I could
help.
Being a parent is the hardest thing in the world isn't it? I too struggle
with how much freedom is too much and am I saying yes too much. Finding
the
proper balance is really tough. I think that you have to do what is in
your
heart and right for you and your family. Someone told me to follow my
heart
and sometimes that sounds cliché, but it's really good advice.
Btw, how old is your daughter? I wonder if this could be a phase of some
sort. Personally I don't think handing over total autonomy to a child is
the
correct thing to do in some cases. Children need firm and loving guidance
and I don't think unschooling means telling our kids yes all the time.
Personal boundaries are important and the skills to respect other people's
personal boundaries are important. She needs to understand what abusive
behavior is and learn that there are consequences to such behavior. This
doesn't mean you have to give up the unschooling way of life in my
opinion.
Be sure to lay out in simple terms what actions will bring about what
consequences.
Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:sherri--lee@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She has become
petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious, inpatient and
miserable to be around.
If it isn't something she finds to be fun or exciting then she is rude
and
loud and domineering and just plain ruins everything for everyone else
with
her endless whining.
I don't even enjoy her company anymore.
If my husband or I are not playing with her she is bored and all she
wants
to do is watch TV. She no longer does ANYTHING on her own, she needs one
of
us or someone else to be there playing with her. If we want to do
anything
for ourselves, it is boring and rude and she screams at us about how she
wants what she wants right now and if we don't give it to her she will
(put
in your threat here).
I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and sister who
are
visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before I started
reading
about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had a child who
was
socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time. Yes that
might have been because she behaved because she was afraid of
punishment,
but it was better than being out in public and her telling me that she
won't
do anything I say and blowing a raspberry in my face. Makes me want to
smack
her to be honest. And we live in a society where a certain amount of
appropriate behaviour is expected and right now, I wouldn't feel
comfortable
taking her out to many social situations at all, where as 6 months ago I
felt confident taking her anywhere.
I can hear her right now, demanding my sister play Barbie's with her
AGAIN.
That is almost all she has done since she got her yesterday. My sister
said
no and she got screamed at. She suggested a book and she got screamed at
because it isn't the right book for Hannah right this instant, or simply
because it was someone else's idea.
The way I feel right now I will be leaving the unschooling as a
lifestyle
path (although I will stick with it for educational purposes) but will
reinstate our rules and regulations for living, because without them I
have
a child I don't like who has no respect or compassion or pleasant
thought
for anyone else.
I know what some of you will say to this: "stick it out" "stay the
course"
"it will get better" "it is just her reacting to the new freedoms and
she
will come back to balance eventually". I just don't think I have it in
me
to
do that. I was near tears in the mall today because she was so obnoxious
because every single minute was not spent entertaining her. And if I
tried
to talk to her about sharing and thinking of other people, she blew a
raspberry at me or stuck her fingers in her ears or some other rude
action
that just was over the top.
I don't think I expect anyone here to have any answers for me, I just
thought at least here it was in context, where some of my other lists
would
suggest time outs and spanking which I am not prepared to go to right
yet,
although I know my family (including dh) thinks I am a lunatic for
taking
such abuse from her as I do. And yes before you jump on me, it is
abusive
sometimes, her demands are so over the top and impossible to achieve
that
it
is too much.
I will ask her if she is hungry, no she will say I will suggest things.
no
thank you she will say, then as soon as I sit down, she wants me to get
her
something to eat. She doesn't know what it is though, I have to help her
decide, but everything I suggest is not only rejected but rejected in
screaming, with anger at me for being so stupid I can't read her mind.
When
I say I have no more suggestions, she screams and berates me and tells
me
I
HAVE to get her something to eat or she won't love me or something else.
So
I stay calm and ask her what she wants and make suggestions again and so
it
continues.
I hate this. Where has my pleasant child gone?
Sherri-Lee
Who is sending this with trepidation about putting these raw thoughts on
this list, but really can't talk to anyone else about this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Glasser
Oh and something I wanted to add, so I'll just add it here. Sherri you are
probably really hormonal right now too, and your coping mechanisms are
probably not what they normally are. Things can seem much more heightened.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
<<<<I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want me
toget you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I
don'treally want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am
nothungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get
me XXX?" >>>>
When Jayn does this exact thing, which is pretty often, I ask her why she
can't get it herself - in a genuine way. She always says her legs, or arms,
are "too floppy". It's kinda cute. Of course I am not extremely pregnant so
that makes it only about a gazillion times easier for me to get up and get
whatever it is. Sometimes I tell her I am too floppy.
There are times that the answer has to be "no" or "not right now", and
sometimes there is a firestorm of resentment to ridden out when that
happens. I find that trying to short circuit that process only prolongs the
angry outburst with Jayn.
I think if Jayn were being obnoxious when we went out, I would take that as
a signal that we should be staying in more.
Have you shown her any photographic material or videos about the developing
baby inside you? I wonder if she has any kind of realistic notion about what
is going on in there.
Good luck with your delivery, it must be any time now.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
Yahoo! Groups Links
probably really hormonal right now too, and your coping mechanisms are
probably not what they normally are. Things can seem much more heightened.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
<<<<I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want me
toget you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down I
don'treally want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am
nothungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get
me XXX?" >>>>
When Jayn does this exact thing, which is pretty often, I ask her why she
can't get it herself - in a genuine way. She always says her legs, or arms,
are "too floppy". It's kinda cute. Of course I am not extremely pregnant so
that makes it only about a gazillion times easier for me to get up and get
whatever it is. Sometimes I tell her I am too floppy.
There are times that the answer has to be "no" or "not right now", and
sometimes there is a firestorm of resentment to ridden out when that
happens. I find that trying to short circuit that process only prolongs the
angry outburst with Jayn.
I think if Jayn were being obnoxious when we went out, I would take that as
a signal that we should be staying in more.
Have you shown her any photographic material or videos about the developing
baby inside you? I wonder if she has any kind of realistic notion about what
is going on in there.
Good luck with your delivery, it must be any time now.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Yahoo! Groups Links
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Michelle,
Thanks for your reply, it gave me a lot to think about. I am going to
respond through out, so I will put what you said in quotations and mine
without.
"We have very few rules in our house. Number one rule is that we respect
each other and each other's spaces."
We have this as well, including body space. It is when I have stated the
request and explained that I am not feeling respected and she keeps going
and going that I feel myself getting angry. I can not remove myself from the
room as this causes her to become hysterical and even more grabby, needy of
me. This happens with words, tone of voice as well as physical body. So how
do you make someone be respectful of your wishes, when you have clearly
stated them and do all you can to enforce them and still nothing changes?
This is where I am stumped. I guess I feel like I have no ultimate thing
that will ensure I get my wishes respected. I hope that makes sense.
"Just reading what you have written speaks to me that your daughter used to
have very set boundaries and then suddenly there were no boundaries and she
may feel lost. She sees "yes" as "everything my way or I make everyone
miserable" rather than realizing that other people exist in the her world
and if she wants people to be want to do things for her and with her."
She had set boundaries before to an extent. We turned off the TV when I said
so for example. And now it more up to her although I will remind of
commitments or encourage it to go off in favour of other activities. And yes
she really does seem to have begun to see every yes as everything is her way
or I make the world miserable... so what do I do with that? I started saying
yes more, simply because I was finding her resistant and uncooperative to
doing what we asked of her, and I thought from reading here that if I
started to model joyfully doing the things she asked for that she would
follow suit. Now it has worked in some regards but it has had the opposite
effect in other areas. Having said that I see that part of the problem the
other day was hunger on her part, but she steadfastly refused to eat. Any
suggestion that he mood might have had something to do with hunger was
greeted with a shouted "NO" and an angrier child.
"Is she an only child? Who does she play with on a daily/weekly basis?
Does she have a peer group, siblings, cousins? Do you have a local
homeschool or resource group that you meet with on a regular basis? Are
there friends in the neighborhood that she can play with who are
homeschooled or who are free to come play after school and on weekends?
Have you talked to her about how you are feeling abused and come to a
negotiation of what is acceptable for all of you. Obviously being her sole
source of entertainment isn't working for you and you need to work together
to find other sources of entertainment or ways for her to entertain
herself."
She is an only child, for now... I think I might be in early labour as we
speak:) She is a very social child and does get me out more than I would on
my own because of it. Everyday that it is nice I take her to a park to play
where she meets kids. She is very outgoing and will approach children she
doesn't know and introduce herself and ask if they want to play with her.
She goes to music class once a week with good friends and to the park after.
We have a homeschool field trip group we go on once a week with friends as
well. Plus she has gymnastics weekly. We live in a rural area and all our
neighbours are older without small kids her age. We have no family near by
with kids for her to play with. I try to get her and one of her friends
together another time a week, but that is harder now that their schedule has
changed and I am so tired. I have a 15 year old who comes in weekly JUST to
play with her. Her father comes away from his home office most mornings to
wrestle and play with her when we get up. He plays with her frequently
during the day. I wouldn't say I am her sole source of entertainment or that
she is without social stimulation, she is just in this place where if she
isn't awake, she wants constant attention. It might have something to do
with the baby coming, I don't know.
"I raised my children with gentle guidance. I subscribe to a very AP style
of parenting. That doesn't mean that there are no rules and no "nos." Not
because I feel that children "need" nos but because yeses don't always work
or are appropriate. For instance a "totally chocolate dinner" isn't sound
nutrition (although I'm working on it LOL!) and the kids can't go play out
in the street (for obvious safety reasons). Sometimes I don't have the
energy to be able to do that one last project or am busy with household
activities (floors need to be washed and bills do need to be paid
periodically) and so a "no" or a "later" is the answer."
We have also practiced the AP lifestyle from day one. Co-sleeping, extended
nursing, gentle discipline etc etc although I have not been perfect with
that given some of my personal issues, but I have never stopped trying or
working on it. This is not completely new for her. It just seems to have
escalated since this summer when I started being more aware of unschooling.
It used to be that I would say "no I am doing the wash, want to help me?"
and she would say yes, now she says "BORING! Please turn on the TV for me"
or she would have just gone and played with her toys in the toy room which
is right off the kitchen while I was puttering. But not since she has
discovered the use of TV as distraction. And I really think that is part of
what we have to do... reinstate those limits on TV. Last night as we
prepared thanksgiving dinner and all the adults were busy, she wanted
someone to play with her. So I suggested she watch a show (30 minutes) while
she wait for dinner and she said, no that is too boring. Twice now she has
referred to TV as boring and not wanting to do it, but she seems to have
lost her ability to self amuse in what ever small amount she had before. Any
hints on how to help her get that back? Plus, to be honest, with the baby
coming, I was sort of assuming that there would be MORE TV time as a way to
get us through the first few weeks, although I have good back up help in
place, it won't cover all day.
"I think before abandoning the entire "unschooling lifestyle" that you can
re-evaluate what parts are and aren't working for you. It may be that your
daughter needs a bit more structure or guidelines to work with. She may be
feeling like a toddler and trying to figure out what her boundaries are and
is confused because she doesn't seem to have any or they are very
inconsistant. Families have to work as a whole and that includes the
parents. If she isn't treating you with respect as a person (not just as
her parent) then something isn't working for all of you."
Yes I think you are right. Every time we have encountered this sort of
growth curve, it has led back to her feeling too free and floundering. As
soon as I reinstated some of the boundaries, her equilibrium seem to be
restored. However we have never had her completely unwilling to play on her
own before so that is a new dimension.
Thank you for all your thoughts and insight, they have really helped me,
Sherri-Lee
Thanks for your reply, it gave me a lot to think about. I am going to
respond through out, so I will put what you said in quotations and mine
without.
"We have very few rules in our house. Number one rule is that we respect
each other and each other's spaces."
We have this as well, including body space. It is when I have stated the
request and explained that I am not feeling respected and she keeps going
and going that I feel myself getting angry. I can not remove myself from the
room as this causes her to become hysterical and even more grabby, needy of
me. This happens with words, tone of voice as well as physical body. So how
do you make someone be respectful of your wishes, when you have clearly
stated them and do all you can to enforce them and still nothing changes?
This is where I am stumped. I guess I feel like I have no ultimate thing
that will ensure I get my wishes respected. I hope that makes sense.
"Just reading what you have written speaks to me that your daughter used to
have very set boundaries and then suddenly there were no boundaries and she
may feel lost. She sees "yes" as "everything my way or I make everyone
miserable" rather than realizing that other people exist in the her world
and if she wants people to be want to do things for her and with her."
She had set boundaries before to an extent. We turned off the TV when I said
so for example. And now it more up to her although I will remind of
commitments or encourage it to go off in favour of other activities. And yes
she really does seem to have begun to see every yes as everything is her way
or I make the world miserable... so what do I do with that? I started saying
yes more, simply because I was finding her resistant and uncooperative to
doing what we asked of her, and I thought from reading here that if I
started to model joyfully doing the things she asked for that she would
follow suit. Now it has worked in some regards but it has had the opposite
effect in other areas. Having said that I see that part of the problem the
other day was hunger on her part, but she steadfastly refused to eat. Any
suggestion that he mood might have had something to do with hunger was
greeted with a shouted "NO" and an angrier child.
"Is she an only child? Who does she play with on a daily/weekly basis?
Does she have a peer group, siblings, cousins? Do you have a local
homeschool or resource group that you meet with on a regular basis? Are
there friends in the neighborhood that she can play with who are
homeschooled or who are free to come play after school and on weekends?
Have you talked to her about how you are feeling abused and come to a
negotiation of what is acceptable for all of you. Obviously being her sole
source of entertainment isn't working for you and you need to work together
to find other sources of entertainment or ways for her to entertain
herself."
She is an only child, for now... I think I might be in early labour as we
speak:) She is a very social child and does get me out more than I would on
my own because of it. Everyday that it is nice I take her to a park to play
where she meets kids. She is very outgoing and will approach children she
doesn't know and introduce herself and ask if they want to play with her.
She goes to music class once a week with good friends and to the park after.
We have a homeschool field trip group we go on once a week with friends as
well. Plus she has gymnastics weekly. We live in a rural area and all our
neighbours are older without small kids her age. We have no family near by
with kids for her to play with. I try to get her and one of her friends
together another time a week, but that is harder now that their schedule has
changed and I am so tired. I have a 15 year old who comes in weekly JUST to
play with her. Her father comes away from his home office most mornings to
wrestle and play with her when we get up. He plays with her frequently
during the day. I wouldn't say I am her sole source of entertainment or that
she is without social stimulation, she is just in this place where if she
isn't awake, she wants constant attention. It might have something to do
with the baby coming, I don't know.
"I raised my children with gentle guidance. I subscribe to a very AP style
of parenting. That doesn't mean that there are no rules and no "nos." Not
because I feel that children "need" nos but because yeses don't always work
or are appropriate. For instance a "totally chocolate dinner" isn't sound
nutrition (although I'm working on it LOL!) and the kids can't go play out
in the street (for obvious safety reasons). Sometimes I don't have the
energy to be able to do that one last project or am busy with household
activities (floors need to be washed and bills do need to be paid
periodically) and so a "no" or a "later" is the answer."
We have also practiced the AP lifestyle from day one. Co-sleeping, extended
nursing, gentle discipline etc etc although I have not been perfect with
that given some of my personal issues, but I have never stopped trying or
working on it. This is not completely new for her. It just seems to have
escalated since this summer when I started being more aware of unschooling.
It used to be that I would say "no I am doing the wash, want to help me?"
and she would say yes, now she says "BORING! Please turn on the TV for me"
or she would have just gone and played with her toys in the toy room which
is right off the kitchen while I was puttering. But not since she has
discovered the use of TV as distraction. And I really think that is part of
what we have to do... reinstate those limits on TV. Last night as we
prepared thanksgiving dinner and all the adults were busy, she wanted
someone to play with her. So I suggested she watch a show (30 minutes) while
she wait for dinner and she said, no that is too boring. Twice now she has
referred to TV as boring and not wanting to do it, but she seems to have
lost her ability to self amuse in what ever small amount she had before. Any
hints on how to help her get that back? Plus, to be honest, with the baby
coming, I was sort of assuming that there would be MORE TV time as a way to
get us through the first few weeks, although I have good back up help in
place, it won't cover all day.
"I think before abandoning the entire "unschooling lifestyle" that you can
re-evaluate what parts are and aren't working for you. It may be that your
daughter needs a bit more structure or guidelines to work with. She may be
feeling like a toddler and trying to figure out what her boundaries are and
is confused because she doesn't seem to have any or they are very
inconsistant. Families have to work as a whole and that includes the
parents. If she isn't treating you with respect as a person (not just as
her parent) then something isn't working for all of you."
Yes I think you are right. Every time we have encountered this sort of
growth curve, it has led back to her feeling too free and floundering. As
soon as I reinstated some of the boundaries, her equilibrium seem to be
restored. However we have never had her completely unwilling to play on her
own before so that is a new dimension.
Thank you for all your thoughts and insight, they have really helped me,
Sherri-Lee
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Dear Deb,
Thank you. You are so right. I am 9 months pregnant and exhausted and to be
honest, just want to curl up in a ball most of the day and sleep just can't
seem to get enough. Thanks to other posts on the list, today I started
talking to her more about how I am feeling (although I think she has heard
"I am tired" enough these days) and then telling her what I need, like a nap
etc. Today she is being so understanding and cooperative and supportive that
I could cry over the things I said about her the other day. We talked about
how she is feeling about the baby coming. She doesn't seem to be very
articulate about her emotions, but that is no surprise her dad isn't and I
struggle to have the words, because my emotions have always been expressed
in action in the past.
My dh is not "older older" I remember the post I wrote that in... he 51 and
I just tease about him being so much older than me, but sadly he isn't THAT
much older:) And in the last month he has been so terrific for me and her.
He is available for her almost all the time, spends more time with her now
than ever and encourages me to rest and get naps etc. So I can't complain
about him at all right now.
Yes unschooling means not schooling. And yes she is not of school age and if
we didn't think or talk about unschooling, then we would be doing nothing
different. But I can't get over how everyone else is. Makes me want to be a
recluse to be honest sometimes. Today at brunch my mom started grilling her
on how to print her numbers. She is 4 for goodness sake. So at first she did
her best and then when one came she didn't know she looked at me and said "I
don't know" and she HATES not knowing or being able to do something, she is
VERY fragile that way. And I smiled at her and winked and said "and you
don't have to know how to do any of them right now" my mom shut up:)
I need to bring the TV back under some control I see that, it has been a
great tool while pregnant and perhaps it will be again after the baby is
here. She is resistant to anything that isn't cartoons, and yet is bored of
them... I will have to try to introduce some new things to watch I guess.
Other than that I think I should just forget about schooling, preschooling,
homeschooling, unschooling and enjoy being 4 with no expectations of
schooling at this point. I will just smile and ignore all the people who ask
as if you are some sort of freak to not be enrolled in preschool or
kindergarten at this age.
Thank you for your thoughts, I will remember what you said... I know she
doesn't mean this or do it intentionally to get to me, she is not malicious
and I can handle it when I am not feeling attacked like you say but as soon
as I start to feel that way it all falls apart.
I am sure the dynamic of my mom and sister had something to do with it too.
Thanks again,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Sherri-Lee,
I'm sorry things are so hard.
I have been away from the list some, behind on posts a lot so I went to
the archives to see if I could read a bit about what you've written
previously about your daughter.
Thank you. You are so right. I am 9 months pregnant and exhausted and to be
honest, just want to curl up in a ball most of the day and sleep just can't
seem to get enough. Thanks to other posts on the list, today I started
talking to her more about how I am feeling (although I think she has heard
"I am tired" enough these days) and then telling her what I need, like a nap
etc. Today she is being so understanding and cooperative and supportive that
I could cry over the things I said about her the other day. We talked about
how she is feeling about the baby coming. She doesn't seem to be very
articulate about her emotions, but that is no surprise her dad isn't and I
struggle to have the words, because my emotions have always been expressed
in action in the past.
My dh is not "older older" I remember the post I wrote that in... he 51 and
I just tease about him being so much older than me, but sadly he isn't THAT
much older:) And in the last month he has been so terrific for me and her.
He is available for her almost all the time, spends more time with her now
than ever and encourages me to rest and get naps etc. So I can't complain
about him at all right now.
Yes unschooling means not schooling. And yes she is not of school age and if
we didn't think or talk about unschooling, then we would be doing nothing
different. But I can't get over how everyone else is. Makes me want to be a
recluse to be honest sometimes. Today at brunch my mom started grilling her
on how to print her numbers. She is 4 for goodness sake. So at first she did
her best and then when one came she didn't know she looked at me and said "I
don't know" and she HATES not knowing or being able to do something, she is
VERY fragile that way. And I smiled at her and winked and said "and you
don't have to know how to do any of them right now" my mom shut up:)
I need to bring the TV back under some control I see that, it has been a
great tool while pregnant and perhaps it will be again after the baby is
here. She is resistant to anything that isn't cartoons, and yet is bored of
them... I will have to try to introduce some new things to watch I guess.
Other than that I think I should just forget about schooling, preschooling,
homeschooling, unschooling and enjoy being 4 with no expectations of
schooling at this point. I will just smile and ignore all the people who ask
as if you are some sort of freak to not be enrolled in preschool or
kindergarten at this age.
Thank you for your thoughts, I will remember what you said... I know she
doesn't mean this or do it intentionally to get to me, she is not malicious
and I can handle it when I am not feeling attacked like you say but as soon
as I start to feel that way it all falls apart.
I am sure the dynamic of my mom and sister had something to do with it too.
Thanks again,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Hi Sherri-Lee,
I'm sorry things are so hard.
I have been away from the list some, behind on posts a lot so I went to
the archives to see if I could read a bit about what you've written
previously about your daughter.
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Angela,
Thanks for your comments, I will respond through out with yours in quotes
and mine without,
"If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually."
Yes you are right. I had two accomplishments with this today: 1) a friend of
my dh's was here. He had his 5 year old son visiting with my daughter and
was taking their picture with his digital camera. As soon as he saw me he
prepared to take my picture. I turned my back and said no thank you. He
persisted and persisted thinking he could cajole me into it. I stood my
ground without getting mad and didn't give in which causes me resentment.
Finally I just left the room and said I didn't want my picture taken and I
would stay away unless he respected my wishes. He agreed and that was the
end of it. I felt fantastic. I have always hated having my picture taken,
used to completely forbid it for year when I was a punk and didn't care what
others thought, eventually went to the other extreme and started letting
people cause they couldn't understand and ended up resentful. That was cool
for me. And 2)dd was watching a bed time show upstairs. I said I didn't want
to watch cartoons and would be downstairs and if she wanted something to
please come to me, don't just call for me to come to her (big flight of
stairs) well a few minutes later she is hollering for me, I used to get up
and scream at her to come to me and we would end up in conflict. Tonight I
just ignored her. She didn't come down, I ignored the voice that said she
had probably hurt herself and was lying upstairs in a pool of blood and much
later went up to do something else and then check on her. What did she want?
She just didn't want to be alone upstairs. I told her she could come see me
anytime and again no resentment. It felt good. Maybe I am getting somewhere!
"So what has changed if you didn't have many rules before? Is it that
before if she acted like that after you said no and sat down that you would
have given her a time out and now you don't? Tantrums can be difficult to
watch, but there is an alternative to just no too."
Well we are more relaxed about TV (talked about that in another post so
won't repeat) and generally I am just more tired and have less energy and I
spend more time sitting than I used to. I think that might be it. For awhile
my lap top was in the living room and when ever I sat down I was on it I
noticed that not long after she asked for the TV... like if I was on the
computer she would be on the TV. Moved the TV now in preparation for the
baby, and will go back to some controls on the TV and see where we get.
"I think if you can nip these things in the bud and avoid the tantrum it
would be best. As you get better at seeing potential problems ahead of time
it'll be easier. I exercise in the basement every morning. Sometimes I ask
my kids if they want me to get them something before I go down. Other times
I just know they'll be hungry and I just bring a couple things to the living
room for them to eat and drink if they get hungry. I make sure they are all
settled in so I have less of a chance of getting interrupted. They have
changed their minds in the past and so I try to be aware that they might not
know they are going to get hungry soon and plan for that myself. I even
pour drinks and put them in the fridge or on the arm of the couch next to
them. (just in case) Try to remember when she last ate and plan
accordingly."
Yes you are right. I am very emotionally reactive and reflect the emotions
that are around me, so it makes it hard to feel all her emotions flowing out
towards me and to disengage from it. I am SO much better at that than
before, but have a longer way to go. Today I just selected a snack when I
thought she would be hungry and cut it up and put it out and she ate it. I
think perhaps she is overwhelmed with the choices sometimes and doesn't like
being asked what she wants to eat and prefers just having good food
appearing. I will have to expand my food choices too then to accommodate
this.
"Another option would be to tell her "yes" you'll get something for her, in
a few minutes. (Maybe next commercial) You might even suggest she get a
string cheese (or whatever) out of the fridge to hold her over till you get
her something. My kids at that age didn't like to do for themselves in the
food department. They just plain liked to be waited on and I didn't mind,
as long as they were a little patient with me."
Yes, to this too! Although sometimes she is down right thrilled that she can
just help herself to her own food and doesn't have to wait for me and other
times hates doing it for herself LOL. But yes it might have to become "yes"
with conditions, especially with the new baby coming.
"Is she getting all the rest she needs? No bedtime to me isn't about just
waiting till they fall down in their tracks exhausted. It's about watching
their body signals and going to bed when they are tired instead of at some
set time. I still lie down with my girls while they go to sleep so sleep
isn't something that is seen as terrible. They don't feel like they are
missing anything and they feel secure and safe. Provide snacks often if she
gets hungry often."
She generally sleeps 10-11 hours a night. Asleep around 9 and up at 7 or 8,
so I don't think there is a shortage there. She seems to not recognize the
signs of fatigue though any better than the signs of hunger. I will just
keep talking about how I feel during these times and hope she gets it. She
is a lot like her dad there.
I might still get the book, and be more aware of how I projecting my
boundaries. It feels so weird for someone who hasn't established them
before, even the littlest amount of expressing them feels like overkill
sometimes. But as with all else I will keep working on it,
Thank you,
Sherri-lee
Thanks for your comments, I will respond through out with yours in quotes
and mine without,
"If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just plain
hard. But it got easier eventually."
Yes you are right. I had two accomplishments with this today: 1) a friend of
my dh's was here. He had his 5 year old son visiting with my daughter and
was taking their picture with his digital camera. As soon as he saw me he
prepared to take my picture. I turned my back and said no thank you. He
persisted and persisted thinking he could cajole me into it. I stood my
ground without getting mad and didn't give in which causes me resentment.
Finally I just left the room and said I didn't want my picture taken and I
would stay away unless he respected my wishes. He agreed and that was the
end of it. I felt fantastic. I have always hated having my picture taken,
used to completely forbid it for year when I was a punk and didn't care what
others thought, eventually went to the other extreme and started letting
people cause they couldn't understand and ended up resentful. That was cool
for me. And 2)dd was watching a bed time show upstairs. I said I didn't want
to watch cartoons and would be downstairs and if she wanted something to
please come to me, don't just call for me to come to her (big flight of
stairs) well a few minutes later she is hollering for me, I used to get up
and scream at her to come to me and we would end up in conflict. Tonight I
just ignored her. She didn't come down, I ignored the voice that said she
had probably hurt herself and was lying upstairs in a pool of blood and much
later went up to do something else and then check on her. What did she want?
She just didn't want to be alone upstairs. I told her she could come see me
anytime and again no resentment. It felt good. Maybe I am getting somewhere!
"So what has changed if you didn't have many rules before? Is it that
before if she acted like that after you said no and sat down that you would
have given her a time out and now you don't? Tantrums can be difficult to
watch, but there is an alternative to just no too."
Well we are more relaxed about TV (talked about that in another post so
won't repeat) and generally I am just more tired and have less energy and I
spend more time sitting than I used to. I think that might be it. For awhile
my lap top was in the living room and when ever I sat down I was on it I
noticed that not long after she asked for the TV... like if I was on the
computer she would be on the TV. Moved the TV now in preparation for the
baby, and will go back to some controls on the TV and see where we get.
"I think if you can nip these things in the bud and avoid the tantrum it
would be best. As you get better at seeing potential problems ahead of time
it'll be easier. I exercise in the basement every morning. Sometimes I ask
my kids if they want me to get them something before I go down. Other times
I just know they'll be hungry and I just bring a couple things to the living
room for them to eat and drink if they get hungry. I make sure they are all
settled in so I have less of a chance of getting interrupted. They have
changed their minds in the past and so I try to be aware that they might not
know they are going to get hungry soon and plan for that myself. I even
pour drinks and put them in the fridge or on the arm of the couch next to
them. (just in case) Try to remember when she last ate and plan
accordingly."
Yes you are right. I am very emotionally reactive and reflect the emotions
that are around me, so it makes it hard to feel all her emotions flowing out
towards me and to disengage from it. I am SO much better at that than
before, but have a longer way to go. Today I just selected a snack when I
thought she would be hungry and cut it up and put it out and she ate it. I
think perhaps she is overwhelmed with the choices sometimes and doesn't like
being asked what she wants to eat and prefers just having good food
appearing. I will have to expand my food choices too then to accommodate
this.
"Another option would be to tell her "yes" you'll get something for her, in
a few minutes. (Maybe next commercial) You might even suggest she get a
string cheese (or whatever) out of the fridge to hold her over till you get
her something. My kids at that age didn't like to do for themselves in the
food department. They just plain liked to be waited on and I didn't mind,
as long as they were a little patient with me."
Yes, to this too! Although sometimes she is down right thrilled that she can
just help herself to her own food and doesn't have to wait for me and other
times hates doing it for herself LOL. But yes it might have to become "yes"
with conditions, especially with the new baby coming.
"Is she getting all the rest she needs? No bedtime to me isn't about just
waiting till they fall down in their tracks exhausted. It's about watching
their body signals and going to bed when they are tired instead of at some
set time. I still lie down with my girls while they go to sleep so sleep
isn't something that is seen as terrible. They don't feel like they are
missing anything and they feel secure and safe. Provide snacks often if she
gets hungry often."
She generally sleeps 10-11 hours a night. Asleep around 9 and up at 7 or 8,
so I don't think there is a shortage there. She seems to not recognize the
signs of fatigue though any better than the signs of hunger. I will just
keep talking about how I feel during these times and hope she gets it. She
is a lot like her dad there.
I might still get the book, and be more aware of how I projecting my
boundaries. It feels so weird for someone who hasn't established them
before, even the littlest amount of expressing them feels like overkill
sometimes. But as with all else I will keep working on it,
Thank you,
Sherri-lee
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Thanks Wendy,
Luckily we had a much better day today. I was more centered and aware and
she was just much calmer. We talked about how the baby might change things
for us and although she seemed to have all the answers (as she always does)
I am sure it will be rough on her at times. I have "raising your spirited
child" and just have to read it.
Thank you for the support!
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Wendy E [mailto:mommytoluc@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: since I started saying yes....
I don't have any answers sherri. I have a challenging one here
myself. The one thing that strikes me here is that there are lots
of changes going on for this little one...a new sibling on the
horizon was a big change for my guy. Also just basic temperament
and developmental stages come into play. I'm not saying that
changing your parenting style has had no role, good or bad, in her
behavior. I just would look at other things too. Parenting is
hard, no matter how you do it. And it's no easy task dealing with a
challenging child while you are pregnant. Hope things get
better...and I hope you find some peace.
Wendy
PS...I found "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka
to be pretty helpful.
--- In [email protected], Sherri-Lee Pressman
<sherri--lee@s...> wrote:
Luckily we had a much better day today. I was more centered and aware and
she was just much calmer. We talked about how the baby might change things
for us and although she seemed to have all the answers (as she always does)
I am sure it will be rough on her at times. I have "raising your spirited
child" and just have to read it.
Thank you for the support!
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Wendy E [mailto:mommytoluc@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: since I started saying yes....
I don't have any answers sherri. I have a challenging one here
myself. The one thing that strikes me here is that there are lots
of changes going on for this little one...a new sibling on the
horizon was a big change for my guy. Also just basic temperament
and developmental stages come into play. I'm not saying that
changing your parenting style has had no role, good or bad, in her
behavior. I just would look at other things too. Parenting is
hard, no matter how you do it. And it's no easy task dealing with a
challenging child while you are pregnant. Hope things get
better...and I hope you find some peace.
Wendy
PS...I found "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka
to be pretty helpful.
--- In [email protected], Sherri-Lee Pressman
<sherri--lee@s...> wrote:
> Things in our world have changed. And not for the better. She hasbecome
> petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious,inpatient and
> miserable to be around.sister who are
>
> I am sick of it and after a miserable day out with my mom and
> visiting, I am sorry I ever discovered unschooling. Before Istarted reading
> about it and letting go of our rules and restrictions, I had achild who was
> socially acceptable and pleasant to be around most of the time.Yahoo! Groups Links
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Thanks Leslie,
It helps just to her been there done that stuff.
We were laughing today because I am 40 weeks pregnant and not overly eager
for this to end, I feel fine and am just so ok with waiting for whenever the
baby makes an appearance and I realized this is about the only thing I have
true patience for LOL.
Hannah taught me it 4 years ago when she was 2.5 weeks "overdue" and I was
fine with that and everyone else around me was going squirrelly.
I think I have finally internalized that lots of this is just her age and
stage and where she is at and that it will pass and soon all be ok again as
with every other stage of her life...
Thanks!
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie530@... [mailto:Leslie530@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 6:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
In a message dated 10/11/2004 7:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just
plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
****************************************************************************
**
*********************
I have an almost always unschooled 4 year old daughter and she sounds alot
like yours! It sorta came from nowhere. We never know from one minute to
the
next what she'll be like. I cannot say we've been terrific at dealing with
it, but we're working on it.
Hang in there! I think it has alot to do with age, and it will give you
great practice at patience! :)
Oh, one more point. I notice with my children that sometimes they act
worse
when I am at my mothering best. I read an explanation once that made sense
to me, something like they don't necessarily feel deserving of love in the
moment. I must say with my son, most of that behavior was around 4 YO, I'm
still in the middle of it with my daughter.
Hang in there, Sherri-Lee!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
It helps just to her been there done that stuff.
We were laughing today because I am 40 weeks pregnant and not overly eager
for this to end, I feel fine and am just so ok with waiting for whenever the
baby makes an appearance and I realized this is about the only thing I have
true patience for LOL.
Hannah taught me it 4 years ago when she was 2.5 weeks "overdue" and I was
fine with that and everyone else around me was going squirrelly.
I think I have finally internalized that lots of this is just her age and
stage and where she is at and that it will pass and soon all be ok again as
with every other stage of her life...
Thanks!
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie530@... [mailto:Leslie530@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 6:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
In a message dated 10/11/2004 7:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:
If you have had issues in the past with people not recognizing your
boundaries, then maybe you need to work on making them more obvious. If
adults have a hard time reading them, then your 4 year old definitely will.
I didn't realize your dd was only 4.5 years old. 4 was a really emotional
year with my oldest dd. She would melt down very easily. It was just
plain
hard. But it got easier eventually.
****************************************************************************
**
*********************
I have an almost always unschooled 4 year old daughter and she sounds alot
like yours! It sorta came from nowhere. We never know from one minute to
the
next what she'll be like. I cannot say we've been terrific at dealing with
it, but we're working on it.
Hang in there! I think it has alot to do with age, and it will give you
great practice at patience! :)
Oh, one more point. I notice with my children that sometimes they act
worse
when I am at my mothering best. I read an explanation once that made sense
to me, something like they don't necessarily feel deserving of love in the
moment. I must say with my son, most of that behavior was around 4 YO, I'm
still in the middle of it with my daughter.
Hang in there, Sherri-Lee!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Julie,
I like your wording. I have been saying, "don't use that tone of voice" but
that sounds so non descript. I have said "don't talk to me like that" but
also that doesn't say what I am trying to say. I will start using some of
your words and perhaps that will help a bit.
I totally agree about not wanting to modeling tolerating abusive behaviour,
Thank you,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Stauffer [mailto:jnjstau@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 6:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Something else that might help....
Sherri described her child's behavior as abusive. I don't think moms just
stoically tolerating abusive behavior while trying their best to help a
child is modelling what the parents want to model to their children. If our
children learn to read, clean house, be helpful people by watching us model
those behaviors....don't they learn to tolerate abuse by watching us
tolerate abuse?
I am not saying to be abusive back, but to gently, firmly stand up to abuse
and model for the child how to handle situations where one party is being
abusive.
My now 5yo, Dan, can get abusive. He can be wonderfully sweet and gentle
and at other times, he yells, kicks, calls names, etc.. We talk during calm
times about how people don't like to do things for people who are being mean
to them, that people can't always even understand what he wants if he is
being mean, etc.. I use people because Dan also gets abusive with his
siblings.
I thought long and hard about how to handle this. I didn't want to punish
him....I didn't want to model tolerating abuse...I couldn't allow him to be
abusive to his siblings. So I thought about what I would do with an abusive
adult....I would tell them cut it out and if they didn't I would leave the
room, ask them to leave, whatever....but I wouldn't just stand there and
take it.
So with Dan I did lots of things. I would ask him to speak nicely to me, I
would give him a hug, I would leave the room, I would rub his back, I would
do whatever seemed appropriate at the time....If I was offering suggestions
and he refused them all and continued to berate me, I would say "let me know
when you decide" and I would leave.
After lots of work, Dan started to calm down when I tell him "I will gladly
help you but don't be mean to me." Now, I just turn around and give him a
look, not mean but like "I can't believe you just said that to me" and he
stops it.
Just a thought.
julie S.
I like your wording. I have been saying, "don't use that tone of voice" but
that sounds so non descript. I have said "don't talk to me like that" but
also that doesn't say what I am trying to say. I will start using some of
your words and perhaps that will help a bit.
I totally agree about not wanting to modeling tolerating abusive behaviour,
Thank you,
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Stauffer [mailto:jnjstau@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 6:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
Something else that might help....
Sherri described her child's behavior as abusive. I don't think moms just
stoically tolerating abusive behavior while trying their best to help a
child is modelling what the parents want to model to their children. If our
children learn to read, clean house, be helpful people by watching us model
those behaviors....don't they learn to tolerate abuse by watching us
tolerate abuse?
I am not saying to be abusive back, but to gently, firmly stand up to abuse
and model for the child how to handle situations where one party is being
abusive.
My now 5yo, Dan, can get abusive. He can be wonderfully sweet and gentle
and at other times, he yells, kicks, calls names, etc.. We talk during calm
times about how people don't like to do things for people who are being mean
to them, that people can't always even understand what he wants if he is
being mean, etc.. I use people because Dan also gets abusive with his
siblings.
I thought long and hard about how to handle this. I didn't want to punish
him....I didn't want to model tolerating abuse...I couldn't allow him to be
abusive to his siblings. So I thought about what I would do with an abusive
adult....I would tell them cut it out and if they didn't I would leave the
room, ask them to leave, whatever....but I wouldn't just stand there and
take it.
So with Dan I did lots of things. I would ask him to speak nicely to me, I
would give him a hug, I would leave the room, I would rub his back, I would
do whatever seemed appropriate at the time....If I was offering suggestions
and he refused them all and continued to berate me, I would say "let me know
when you decide" and I would leave.
After lots of work, Dan started to calm down when I tell him "I will gladly
help you but don't be mean to me." Now, I just turn around and give him a
look, not mean but like "I can't believe you just said that to me" and he
stops it.
Just a thought.
julie S.
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Michelle,
Thank you! Being exact is something I have to work on, I tend to waffle too
much. I have tried to set her up with access to so much so she can help
herself, food in the fridge of her choosing, food in a special spot in the
cupboard of her choosing that she can help herself to etc. Yet she likes to
have mommy's involvement.
I also like 2 WAY more than 4:)
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: wieldingwords@... [mailto:wieldingwords@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 7:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
children were going to live to see 5. 4 was the hardest age with each of my
children. People whined about 2yo's but I LOVED my 2yo's. It was the 4yo's
that I wanted to call HRS and tell them that someone abandoned a child on my
front porch!
How to handle the above situation? Be exact with her. Add to your "Before
I sit down" sentence "If you need something after I will sit down, you will
have to get it yourself. I'm tired and need to put my feet up and rest."
With a new baby she is going to have to start doing more things for herself.
When you have a nursling there just isn't any "Let me put the baby down and
do for you" That doesn't mean that they are exluded because you are caring
for the baby, but that they have to do more things for themselves like
getting a drink or snack or wiping their own bottoms.
In a family, *everyone* has rights and that includes mommies!
Michelle
Yahoo! Groups Links
Thank you! Being exact is something I have to work on, I tend to waffle too
much. I have tried to set her up with access to so much so she can help
herself, food in the fridge of her choosing, food in a special spot in the
cupboard of her choosing that she can help herself to etc. Yet she likes to
have mommy's involvement.
I also like 2 WAY more than 4:)
Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: wieldingwords@... [mailto:wieldingwords@...]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 7:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: RE: [unschoolingbasics] since I started saying yes....
> I was saying, "ok I am going to sit down and rest now, so do you want meto
> get you something to eat before I do, because once I am sitting down Idon't
> really want to get up again soon." She would say "no thanks mommy I am notDoing almost a "V-8 slap" Your daughter is 4. I never thought any of my
> hungry" I would sit down, 5 minutes later she would say "mommy will get me
> XXX?" I would say "I just sat down and don't want to get up, why don't you
> get it?"
children were going to live to see 5. 4 was the hardest age with each of my
children. People whined about 2yo's but I LOVED my 2yo's. It was the 4yo's
that I wanted to call HRS and tell them that someone abandoned a child on my
front porch!
How to handle the above situation? Be exact with her. Add to your "Before
I sit down" sentence "If you need something after I will sit down, you will
have to get it yourself. I'm tired and need to put my feet up and rest."
With a new baby she is going to have to start doing more things for herself.
When you have a nursling there just isn't any "Let me put the baby down and
do for you" That doesn't mean that they are exluded because you are caring
for the baby, but that they have to do more things for themselves like
getting a drink or snack or wiping their own bottoms.
In a family, *everyone* has rights and that includes mommies!
Michelle
Yahoo! Groups Links
Wendy E
Good luck Sherri...it has been a hard transition for us...and my
littlest one is 2 1/2 now. He and his brother adore each
other...but it hasn't always been easy. I would/could/probably have
used all those words you used in your email about my older son.
"petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious,
inpatient and
he takes a lot out of me. But...somehow it all seems to work out
better when I acknowledge and honor his unique personality and
temperament, while gently trying to balance the need to guide him in
a world that does not revolve around him. LOL. I think one
important thing I had to remember, especially when the baby came,
was that he still was ONLY a young child. We often have great
expectations of the older one when the little one comes along...you
are older...you should/shouldn't be doing this...when they are still
young, and learning their way in the world. I do sympathize with
you. Again, being pregnant while mothering any young child is
challenging (remember the long restful days of your first
pregnancy?....sigh). Take care....try to rest....
Oh...I remember I had a thought....how about making some things
really accessible for her so she can "help herself" to things she
might need...ie: snacks on a low shelf, juice boxes, water bottles,
and other quick foods in the refrig on a low shelf she can
reach...just a thought. And if she wants it...she can get it.
Oh...and as far as the TV situation...do you guys rent video's?
Sometimes those are a nice break from TV shows and you can have fun
picking things out together. Also, Dr. Sears has a really great
book about a new sibling...I have foung that some of the "my mommy
is having a new baby" books to be really negative. This one is
sweet...https://www.askdrsears.com/store/detail.asp?pid=7
Good luck.
--- In [email protected], Sherri-Lee Pressman
<sherri--lee@s...> wrote:
littlest one is 2 1/2 now. He and his brother adore each
other...but it hasn't always been easy. I would/could/probably have
used all those words you used in your email about my older son.
"petulant, demanding, overbearing, rude, mouthy, obnoxious,
inpatient and
> miserable to be around."He seems impossible a lot of the time. He is an amazing kid...and
he takes a lot out of me. But...somehow it all seems to work out
better when I acknowledge and honor his unique personality and
temperament, while gently trying to balance the need to guide him in
a world that does not revolve around him. LOL. I think one
important thing I had to remember, especially when the baby came,
was that he still was ONLY a young child. We often have great
expectations of the older one when the little one comes along...you
are older...you should/shouldn't be doing this...when they are still
young, and learning their way in the world. I do sympathize with
you. Again, being pregnant while mothering any young child is
challenging (remember the long restful days of your first
pregnancy?....sigh). Take care....try to rest....
Oh...I remember I had a thought....how about making some things
really accessible for her so she can "help herself" to things she
might need...ie: snacks on a low shelf, juice boxes, water bottles,
and other quick foods in the refrig on a low shelf she can
reach...just a thought. And if she wants it...she can get it.
Oh...and as far as the TV situation...do you guys rent video's?
Sometimes those are a nice break from TV shows and you can have fun
picking things out together. Also, Dr. Sears has a really great
book about a new sibling...I have foung that some of the "my mommy
is having a new baby" books to be really negative. This one is
sweet...https://www.askdrsears.com/store/detail.asp?pid=7
Good luck.
--- In [email protected], Sherri-Lee Pressman
<sherri--lee@s...> wrote:
> Thanks Wendy,
>
> Luckily we had a much better day today.