kids and secrecy
natalijoi
Hi folks,
I have an ongoing situation I need a little input on. My ten year old
son, Solstice, has a friend, well, his best friend, actually, that has
some tendencies to sneak around, and basically try to "get away" with
stuff. When he and Solly get together, or talk on the phone, they
pretty much always have some sort of secret thing they're
planning,(which I normally would be fine with, in respecting my
Solly's right to his privacy and independence) but over the past year,
the things they are coming up with are increasingly ill advised and
dangerous. In December, the midst of a freezing Wisconsin winter, they
"ran away" together, at 10 pm, without enough warm stuff on, or a
destination. This is the only friend there is ever any sneakiness
with, Solly's general policy is full disclosure, to a fault! :)
This is puzzling to me for two reasons. Number one is my relationship
with my son. He has high functioning Asperger's, and I have always
been his "contact" person, (or his "advocate" as they call it in the
public school system) and so he tends to choose to come to me with
whatever idea or plans he has and run them by me first. He knows that
I will help him to work towards whatever his goal is, without
trivializing his desires.(I know this because he does come to me with
lots and lots of stuff.)
He does have a great deal of independence, and usually prepares most
of his own food, uses his paints, clay, and other things that the
younger kids usually ask first about because he knows that he can do
these things on his own, and that they are things he feels confident
that I won't ask him to wait awhile, or do it differently (please take
the clay off of the couch and put it on a hard surface.) like I
frequently need to do with the younger kids. He will even ask
'permission' to use a swear word! (totally his idea, and, again, he is
looking more for guidance than permission) I have assumed that maybe
he is trying to branch out and gain some further independence with
making his own choices, but I also think that this other young man
encourages him to hide things and to disregard the general policy of
our household, which is to democratically decide things like when we
have friends over, what we are doing on the weekends, etc. Things
change a great deal in the way that Solly relates to others when this
friend is around.
Reason number two this is confusing, is that this other boy is also an
unschooler, and his mother also is very open in her communications
with him, and facilitating his needs and wants. So, it is puzzling to
me that he would have such a draw to secret plans and hiding things.
(not that this couldn't be a parental issue)
I don't feel like I'm holding my Solly back, or saying *no* too much,
but I guess I should probably ask him what he thinks about being
secretive. He has already told me that he doesn't feel like he sees
this friend enough, and I know that is because over the course of the
last year, I have really grown to mistrust this boy, his judgment, and
his motivations, and therefore I do find excuses not to have him
around, which is probably only aggravating the situation. However,
this was all happening when we were roommates with this boy and his
mother, over the course of a year, and it has only been since April
that we haven't lived with them.
I guess I am just wondering about secrecy and kids in general. Is this
just a natural part of feeling like they are "master of their own
destiny"-just branching out? How would you handle this?
Thanks.
-Natalie
I have an ongoing situation I need a little input on. My ten year old
son, Solstice, has a friend, well, his best friend, actually, that has
some tendencies to sneak around, and basically try to "get away" with
stuff. When he and Solly get together, or talk on the phone, they
pretty much always have some sort of secret thing they're
planning,(which I normally would be fine with, in respecting my
Solly's right to his privacy and independence) but over the past year,
the things they are coming up with are increasingly ill advised and
dangerous. In December, the midst of a freezing Wisconsin winter, they
"ran away" together, at 10 pm, without enough warm stuff on, or a
destination. This is the only friend there is ever any sneakiness
with, Solly's general policy is full disclosure, to a fault! :)
This is puzzling to me for two reasons. Number one is my relationship
with my son. He has high functioning Asperger's, and I have always
been his "contact" person, (or his "advocate" as they call it in the
public school system) and so he tends to choose to come to me with
whatever idea or plans he has and run them by me first. He knows that
I will help him to work towards whatever his goal is, without
trivializing his desires.(I know this because he does come to me with
lots and lots of stuff.)
He does have a great deal of independence, and usually prepares most
of his own food, uses his paints, clay, and other things that the
younger kids usually ask first about because he knows that he can do
these things on his own, and that they are things he feels confident
that I won't ask him to wait awhile, or do it differently (please take
the clay off of the couch and put it on a hard surface.) like I
frequently need to do with the younger kids. He will even ask
'permission' to use a swear word! (totally his idea, and, again, he is
looking more for guidance than permission) I have assumed that maybe
he is trying to branch out and gain some further independence with
making his own choices, but I also think that this other young man
encourages him to hide things and to disregard the general policy of
our household, which is to democratically decide things like when we
have friends over, what we are doing on the weekends, etc. Things
change a great deal in the way that Solly relates to others when this
friend is around.
Reason number two this is confusing, is that this other boy is also an
unschooler, and his mother also is very open in her communications
with him, and facilitating his needs and wants. So, it is puzzling to
me that he would have such a draw to secret plans and hiding things.
(not that this couldn't be a parental issue)
I don't feel like I'm holding my Solly back, or saying *no* too much,
but I guess I should probably ask him what he thinks about being
secretive. He has already told me that he doesn't feel like he sees
this friend enough, and I know that is because over the course of the
last year, I have really grown to mistrust this boy, his judgment, and
his motivations, and therefore I do find excuses not to have him
around, which is probably only aggravating the situation. However,
this was all happening when we were roommates with this boy and his
mother, over the course of a year, and it has only been since April
that we haven't lived with them.
I guess I am just wondering about secrecy and kids in general. Is this
just a natural part of feeling like they are "master of their own
destiny"-just branching out? How would you handle this?
Thanks.
-Natalie
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "natalijoi"
<natalijoi@...> wrote:
Is it possible for you and the other parents to do some
brainstorming for extra fun, extra special things for these guys to
do together? Maybe have a whole bunch of plans and ideas and options
to throw at them so they don't have such a impetus to come up with
fun new things to try on their own.
Another thought is how much are the adults interacting with the kids
when all y'all are together? Is it adult social time? That's the
sort of situation that's really ripe for less-than-perfectly-thought-
out kid plans. When these guys get together, be sure there's an
adult ready to facilitate anything at any time - not in a "stop them
before it gets out of hand" way! but in a "lets make it as fun as we
possibly can for Everyone" way.
really think about. You don't have to say anything about it on the
board, but think about that. Is there an emotional issue separate
from the safety issue?
Also ask yourself if you're expecting the other boy to "be the
responsible one". That may not be realistic for a whole lot of
different reasons. I've certainly been caught in that situation,
where I expected whoever Ray was hanging out with to be Responsible
bc that person was older or whatever and then kicked myself later -
what was I thinking?
other boy's judgement and motivations. Start with motivation - he's
a kid, looking to have a great time with his best pal. That alone
can motivate all kinds of fantastic ideas. Judgement? How old is
this kid? If he's ten, too, then he has the judgement of a ten year
old. A ten year old unschooler, sure, but its not a guarantee of
genius when he's looking to whoop it up with his Buddy. So look for
ways to empower the pair of them towards better judgement.
I don't know how your family communicates, but in my family we use a
lot of gentle good humor. So if Ray had a friend like this I'd ask
if I should ready a survival pack, restock the first aid kit and
rent a defibrillator for the weekend. Which would take the rest of
the day to explain, but in the process I might learn a thing or two
about The Plans.
I'd also be pretty frank with Ray about my feelings - that I was
kind of concerned bc some of the past plans had scared me, or
whatever. I'd be sure to talk about that in terms of My Feelings,
though, bc gosh mom, nobody froze to death, what do you mean it
wasn't a Great Idea? It was a Fabulous Adventure!
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
<natalijoi@...> wrote:
>> When he and Solly get together, or talk on the phone, theyyear,
> pretty much always have some sort of secret thing they're
> planning,(which I normally would be fine with, in respecting my
> Solly's right to his privacy and independence) but over the past
> the things they are coming up with are increasingly ill advised andOkay, "thinking out loud" here, so appologies if its disjointed.
> dangerous.
Is it possible for you and the other parents to do some
brainstorming for extra fun, extra special things for these guys to
do together? Maybe have a whole bunch of plans and ideas and options
to throw at them so they don't have such a impetus to come up with
fun new things to try on their own.
Another thought is how much are the adults interacting with the kids
when all y'all are together? Is it adult social time? That's the
sort of situation that's really ripe for less-than-perfectly-thought-
out kid plans. When these guys get together, be sure there's an
adult ready to facilitate anything at any time - not in a "stop them
before it gets out of hand" way! but in a "lets make it as fun as we
possibly can for Everyone" way.
>he tends to choose to come to me withAre you jealous? I'm not being facetious or snarky, its something to
> whatever idea or plans he has and run them by me first.
really think about. You don't have to say anything about it on the
board, but think about that. Is there an emotional issue separate
from the safety issue?
Also ask yourself if you're expecting the other boy to "be the
responsible one". That may not be realistic for a whole lot of
different reasons. I've certainly been caught in that situation,
where I expected whoever Ray was hanging out with to be Responsible
bc that person was older or whatever and then kicked myself later -
what was I thinking?
>I know that is because over the course of theand
> last year, I have really grown to mistrust this boy, his judgment,
> his motivations, and therefore I do find excuses not to have himSpend some time rethinking those assumptions you have about the
> around, which is probably only aggravating the situation.
other boy's judgement and motivations. Start with motivation - he's
a kid, looking to have a great time with his best pal. That alone
can motivate all kinds of fantastic ideas. Judgement? How old is
this kid? If he's ten, too, then he has the judgement of a ten year
old. A ten year old unschooler, sure, but its not a guarantee of
genius when he's looking to whoop it up with his Buddy. So look for
ways to empower the pair of them towards better judgement.
I don't know how your family communicates, but in my family we use a
lot of gentle good humor. So if Ray had a friend like this I'd ask
if I should ready a survival pack, restock the first aid kit and
rent a defibrillator for the weekend. Which would take the rest of
the day to explain, but in the process I might learn a thing or two
about The Plans.
I'd also be pretty frank with Ray about my feelings - that I was
kind of concerned bc some of the past plans had scared me, or
whatever. I'd be sure to talk about that in terms of My Feelings,
though, bc gosh mom, nobody froze to death, what do you mean it
wasn't a Great Idea? It was a Fabulous Adventure!
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
Lori Denley
Maybe y'all could set up some kind of adventure for the kids that they could do on their own, like a scavenger or treasure hunt maybe?
Lori
Lori
--- On Sun, 7/20/08, Meredith <meredith@...> wrote:
From: Meredith <meredith@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: kids and secrecy
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 7:23 PM
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "natalijoi"
<natalijoi@. ..> wrote:
>> When he and Solly get together, or talk on the phone, they
> pretty much always have some sort of secret thing they're
> planning,(which I normally would be fine with, in respecting my
> Solly's right to his privacy and independence) but over the past
year,
> the things they are coming up with are increasingly ill advised and
> dangerous.
Okay, "thinking out loud" here, so appologies if its disjointed.
Is it possible for you and the other parents to do some
brainstorming for extra fun, extra special things for these guys to
do together? Maybe have a whole bunch of plans and ideas and options
to throw at them so they don't have such a impetus to come up with
fun new things to try on their own.
Another thought is how much are the adults interacting with the kids
when all y'all are together? Is it adult social time? That's the
sort of situation that's really ripe for less-than-perfectly -thought-
out kid plans. When these guys get together, be sure there's an
adult ready to facilitate anything at any time - not in a "stop them
before it gets out of hand" way! but in a "lets make it as fun as we
possibly can for Everyone" way.
>he tends to choose to come to me with
> whatever idea or plans he has and run them by me first.
Are you jealous? I'm not being facetious or snarky, its something to
really think about. You don't have to say anything about it on the
board, but think about that. Is there an emotional issue separate
from the safety issue?
Also ask yourself if you're expecting the other boy to "be the
responsible one". That may not be realistic for a whole lot of
different reasons. I've certainly been caught in that situation,
where I expected whoever Ray was hanging out with to be Responsible
bc that person was older or whatever and then kicked myself later -
what was I thinking?
>I know that is because over the course of the
> last year, I have really grown to mistrust this boy, his judgment,
and
> his motivations, and therefore I do find excuses not to have him
> around, which is probably only aggravating the situation.
Spend some time rethinking those assumptions you have about the
other boy's judgement and motivations. Start with motivation - he's
a kid, looking to have a great time with his best pal. That alone
can motivate all kinds of fantastic ideas. Judgement? How old is
this kid? If he's ten, too, then he has the judgement of a ten year
old. A ten year old unschooler, sure, but its not a guarantee of
genius when he's looking to whoop it up with his Buddy. So look for
ways to empower the pair of them towards better judgement.
I don't know how your family communicates, but in my family we use a
lot of gentle good humor. So if Ray had a friend like this I'd ask
if I should ready a survival pack, restock the first aid kit and
rent a defibrillator for the weekend. Which would take the rest of
the day to explain, but in the process I might learn a thing or two
about The Plans.
I'd also be pretty frank with Ray about my feelings - that I was
kind of concerned bc some of the past plans had scared me, or
whatever. I'd be sure to talk about that in terms of My Feelings,
though, bc gosh mom, nobody froze to death, what do you mean it
wasn't a Great Idea? It was a Fabulous Adventure!
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
natalijoi
Those are a lot of really good points. I think I forgot to mention a
few things, like that the plans are often malicious toward the younger
kids around, and that he is generally sort of a bossy bull frog toward
the younger ones, and is sometimes downright bullyish.
I have put some thought into the jealousy issue, and I think that,
yes, that may be a part of it, because I don't really have a great
relationship with him. Mainly it's because I find it hard to be
friends with a person of any age that is cruel to young children and
manipulative across the board. I just have a really hard time handling
a situation in which there is a person that does not come to adults
for help, treat us as though we were his equals, as we treat him, but
rather, lies and sneaks so often that I find it hard to believe he is
being honest at all. And, so, we go out and do things as a family, and
he comes along, and before I know it they're off whispering, and then
suddenly a younger kid is crying with a mudpie in the face. Or, an
iceball filled with rocks is being hurled at a car that's driving past
and I'm RIGHT THERE and it doesn't even matter.
I lived with this family for a year, and no matter how much I said
"yes" and played with them, and modeled the behavior of truthfulness,
working together, respecting other folks right to just *be* He just
has some issues with trusting adults, and, geez, how much can you
affect another person's behavior, and when is it time to just call it
quits?
I think that one of my most major issues here is that in our family,
we have principles, not rules, that guide us. Kindness, patience,
gentleness, in our dealings with others. If a child is super
frustrated and just melting down, yelling at me and freaking out, I am
going to calmly ask, can we talk about this when you don't feel like
yelling anymore? I don't like to be yelled at. At their house, they
might just have a conversation screaming at the top of their lungs at
eachother, using mean and angry words. I think that with our maybe
admittedly idealistic lifestyle, I am just a bit sensitive to this. I
don't want to be screamed at, or manipulated, or lied to, and I know
that it may be impossible for a child who does not have a model of
peacefulness in his own home to be a peaceful person, but do I really
have to deal with it? There's always some decompression time after
they play together, during which we discuss Solly's behavior, not his,
and there's almost always a total communication breakdown for awhile,
where Solstice acts like I'm the big bad enemy. It just sucks.
Especially because I endeavor always to find a way around "no". I
don't want to say it, I want to find a way to do the things they want
to do. But, if they're running across the street to jump off of the
dumpsters in the parking lot, and I say no, no matter what else I
suggest, I'm just the evil adult. It's ridiculous, because I KNOW that
sometimes the whatever it is that they want to do is not even a real
desire, but just a manipulation tactic to show my kids, "see, I told
you she'd say no." I've heard him say it a million times. Well, you
know what, kids, no, you cannot burn the house down. No, you cannot
lock the 5 year old in the closet on a hot day and then go outside.
What the heck!
(all of this actually happened except for them trying to burn the
house down. :)
-Natalie
few things, like that the plans are often malicious toward the younger
kids around, and that he is generally sort of a bossy bull frog toward
the younger ones, and is sometimes downright bullyish.
I have put some thought into the jealousy issue, and I think that,
yes, that may be a part of it, because I don't really have a great
relationship with him. Mainly it's because I find it hard to be
friends with a person of any age that is cruel to young children and
manipulative across the board. I just have a really hard time handling
a situation in which there is a person that does not come to adults
for help, treat us as though we were his equals, as we treat him, but
rather, lies and sneaks so often that I find it hard to believe he is
being honest at all. And, so, we go out and do things as a family, and
he comes along, and before I know it they're off whispering, and then
suddenly a younger kid is crying with a mudpie in the face. Or, an
iceball filled with rocks is being hurled at a car that's driving past
and I'm RIGHT THERE and it doesn't even matter.
I lived with this family for a year, and no matter how much I said
"yes" and played with them, and modeled the behavior of truthfulness,
working together, respecting other folks right to just *be* He just
has some issues with trusting adults, and, geez, how much can you
affect another person's behavior, and when is it time to just call it
quits?
I think that one of my most major issues here is that in our family,
we have principles, not rules, that guide us. Kindness, patience,
gentleness, in our dealings with others. If a child is super
frustrated and just melting down, yelling at me and freaking out, I am
going to calmly ask, can we talk about this when you don't feel like
yelling anymore? I don't like to be yelled at. At their house, they
might just have a conversation screaming at the top of their lungs at
eachother, using mean and angry words. I think that with our maybe
admittedly idealistic lifestyle, I am just a bit sensitive to this. I
don't want to be screamed at, or manipulated, or lied to, and I know
that it may be impossible for a child who does not have a model of
peacefulness in his own home to be a peaceful person, but do I really
have to deal with it? There's always some decompression time after
they play together, during which we discuss Solly's behavior, not his,
and there's almost always a total communication breakdown for awhile,
where Solstice acts like I'm the big bad enemy. It just sucks.
Especially because I endeavor always to find a way around "no". I
don't want to say it, I want to find a way to do the things they want
to do. But, if they're running across the street to jump off of the
dumpsters in the parking lot, and I say no, no matter what else I
suggest, I'm just the evil adult. It's ridiculous, because I KNOW that
sometimes the whatever it is that they want to do is not even a real
desire, but just a manipulation tactic to show my kids, "see, I told
you she'd say no." I've heard him say it a million times. Well, you
know what, kids, no, you cannot burn the house down. No, you cannot
lock the 5 year old in the closet on a hot day and then go outside.
What the heck!
(all of this actually happened except for them trying to burn the
house down. :)
-Natalie