Continuum concept/ Not being child-centered?
Therese
So have most of you read this book? What are your thoughts?
I found it to be highly fascinating.. but difficult to see how to
apply her wisdom attained from the Yequana, to our Western ways.
Don't get me wrong, I have worn dd2 to my body, co-sleep and
breastfed since birth- thats not a problem. But as the kids get to
that 2 year old stage, it seems that the more I ask what she wants
all the time, the more unhappy she is. Liedloff seemed to view child-
centeredness as the issue because what she saw was the Yequana
children being rarely the 'center' of attention, instead the adults
were focused on doing their work in order to survive, while the
children were steeped in this real-life learning.
I think my dd's are looking for me to be more of a leader. To go
about more adult- real-world activities for her to view / be apart
of.
Here is the article by Liedloff about 'Whose in control'..
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html
The problem I am running into is that I have no problem going about
my day- but I worry that my dd's are frustrated at the lack of 'adult
stuff I do' when what they mostly sees is A.) Me on the computer and
B.) Doing static things like dishes and laundry, etc. Whereas the
Yequana children, while not being the 'center' of attention, were
entrenched in real-world survival skills around them all the time.
So this thinking led me to this AWSOME article by Scott Noelle about
this very subject;
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm
WOW. AWSOME...
"My first suggestion is to reclaim the positive connotation of "child-
centered" and accept the label proudly: "I am child-centered because
I am committed to making sure my child's needs are met." Then give
him your direct attention when it feels right to you. (When you're
attuned, it won't feel right to you if it's not right for him.)"
Still, this leads me back to the question of HOW to strike that
balance- of being in tune with my child's needs and also being a
leader while giving my girls a rich environment they can learn from?
I found it to be highly fascinating.. but difficult to see how to
apply her wisdom attained from the Yequana, to our Western ways.
Don't get me wrong, I have worn dd2 to my body, co-sleep and
breastfed since birth- thats not a problem. But as the kids get to
that 2 year old stage, it seems that the more I ask what she wants
all the time, the more unhappy she is. Liedloff seemed to view child-
centeredness as the issue because what she saw was the Yequana
children being rarely the 'center' of attention, instead the adults
were focused on doing their work in order to survive, while the
children were steeped in this real-life learning.
I think my dd's are looking for me to be more of a leader. To go
about more adult- real-world activities for her to view / be apart
of.
Here is the article by Liedloff about 'Whose in control'..
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html
The problem I am running into is that I have no problem going about
my day- but I worry that my dd's are frustrated at the lack of 'adult
stuff I do' when what they mostly sees is A.) Me on the computer and
B.) Doing static things like dishes and laundry, etc. Whereas the
Yequana children, while not being the 'center' of attention, were
entrenched in real-world survival skills around them all the time.
So this thinking led me to this AWSOME article by Scott Noelle about
this very subject;
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm
WOW. AWSOME...
"My first suggestion is to reclaim the positive connotation of "child-
centered" and accept the label proudly: "I am child-centered because
I am committed to making sure my child's needs are met." Then give
him your direct attention when it feels right to you. (When you're
attuned, it won't feel right to you if it's not right for him.)"
Still, this leads me back to the question of HOW to strike that
balance- of being in tune with my child's needs and also being a
leader while giving my girls a rich environment they can learn from?
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 10, 2008, at 3:57 AM, Therese wrote:
I haven't read the book, but primitive tribes have a lot of tasks
children can join into (*and* feel useful and competent at). They
also have easy access to other kids for when the task no longer
interests them.
But that idea needs examined before it's plopped down onto our
culture. I think the part that works is attentive parents who are
there to help their kids and freedom to explore in safety. A tribal
parent can explain in a way that a child will grasp fairly quickly
since it's part of the fabric of everyone's life around them, "I need
to do this or we can't eat." That's just the way life is. But not so
our culture.
You've picked up the wrong part of what works for them. It isn't
parents going about their lives. It's parents being there for their
children. Working on the computer just isn't that interesting to
kids! And it isn't something they can help with and feel they've
helped the family survive.
interesting to do. Don't look to the book to define what they should
find interesting! Get to know them. Be in *their* world. Run parts of
the bigger world that you think would interest them through their lives.
answers. She's *telling* you what she needs. One of the central
points of mindful parenting and unschooling is learning how to listen.
environment" as "Mom going about her life". A mindful unschooling
parent reads books to them and looks for outside activities and gets
kids together to play and says "Hey, want to help me fold laundry,"
and watches TV with them and bakes cookies with them (as much as
they're able ;-) and gets out the art stuff for creating.
Joyce
> I think my dd's are looking for me to be more of a leader. To goYou have the first part right, but not the second part.
> about more adult- real-world activities for her to view / be apart
> of.
I haven't read the book, but primitive tribes have a lot of tasks
children can join into (*and* feel useful and competent at). They
also have easy access to other kids for when the task no longer
interests them.
But that idea needs examined before it's plopped down onto our
culture. I think the part that works is attentive parents who are
there to help their kids and freedom to explore in safety. A tribal
parent can explain in a way that a child will grasp fairly quickly
since it's part of the fabric of everyone's life around them, "I need
to do this or we can't eat." That's just the way life is. But not so
our culture.
You've picked up the wrong part of what works for them. It isn't
parents going about their lives. It's parents being there for their
children. Working on the computer just isn't that interesting to
kids! And it isn't something they can help with and feel they've
helped the family survive.
> The problem I am running into is that I have no problem going aboutNo, I think they're frustrated at the lack of things *they* find
> my day- but I worry that my dd's are frustrated at the lack of 'adult
> stuff I do'
interesting to do. Don't look to the book to define what they should
find interesting! Get to know them. Be in *their* world. Run parts of
the bigger world that you think would interest them through their lives.
> But as the kids get toSimple answer: Put down the book and look to your daughter for
> that 2 year old stage, it seems that the more I ask what she wants
> all the time, the more unhappy she is.
answers. She's *telling* you what she needs. One of the central
points of mindful parenting and unschooling is learning how to listen.
> Still, this leads me back to the question of HOW to strike thatYou're out of balance because you've defined "leader" and "rich
> balance- of being in tune with my child's needs and also being a
> leader while giving my girls a rich environment they can learn from?
environment" as "Mom going about her life". A mindful unschooling
parent reads books to them and looks for outside activities and gets
kids together to play and says "Hey, want to help me fold laundry,"
and watches TV with them and bakes cookies with them (as much as
they're able ;-) and gets out the art stuff for creating.
Joyce
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 10, 2008, at 7:37 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
-pam
> Working on the computer just isn't that interesting toWatch the "Bring Your Kid to Work" episode of "The Office." <g>
> kids! And it isn't something they can help with and feel they've
> helped the family survive.
-pam
lauramae117
it seems that the more I ask what she wants
want? lets do something, what would you like to do? to eat? to
wear?
Children do not need to hear this, they need to believe that we,
their parents, know ourselves, what to do, wear, eat...and that we
are hear from them to teach them, to show them the ways of our
cluture and society (even if it is one we are inventing, ourselves,
as we go along!)
My dd just turned two, and she genuinely helps me throughout the day,
doing sewing projects, building toys and furniature--she has hammered
nails and used the screwdriver correctly-- and she helps fold laundry
and if it weren't for her, the dishes would never get done.
In helping me with the dishes, Ani has gone from just splashing in
the water, to scooping water with various objects, to scooping from
one object to another to pouring water from cups and bowls, to
pouring from one vessle to another. She has also gone from dropping
dishes into the sink, to now, very carefully placing each dish, one
at a time, into the dish water. In all this time, we have broken one
glass and one very old, already chipped small plate. And we use zero
plastic, all materials in our kitchen are real.
I think both of my kids know, that if mommy doesn't get her work
done, like going to the grocery store, working the garden, cleaning
the kitchen, preparing meals, we really do not eat. It is a matter
of life and death, the work we do and I take it seriously, and they,
too, grasp the seriousness of life's necessities.
DDs daddy, he just doesnt know what to do with her when he tries to
play with her, because he does the thing above, "what do you
want" "what is it, Ani, what would you like to do?" She's two, she
wants YOU to do something interesting, something that she can learn
from, something that is a rich experience. That's why she follows me
around all day, because I do interesting stuff, and take the time to
include her in it all.
Now, my son, who's much older (11 next Friday!), he's not quite as
keen on watching me work any longer, but he loved to watch me when he
was a baby. Actually, I think that's where he got his love of
musical theatre, because I thought I should be talking to him as I
worked, but I didnt know what to "say" to a baby about cleaning and
cooking and so on, so I just sung about everything I did, all day
long, throughout the day. Whistle while you work? He wasn't as
physically included in the work, but he was still with me, being a
part of the larger plan that keeps life going.
At this point, though, he's beginning to embark on his own vocation
and isn't as interested in my daily drudgery. He actually said one
day, "I don't need to learn how to do dishes, I'm going to be rich,
and I will not have to do dishes when I am older." Good plan, and
he's probably right. I think he's also afraid I may ask HIM to do
some of the work, and he's learned--from schooling--that "work" is
not fun or importatnt; rather it is a trivial time-waster. We're
still deschooling, in that sense, with him. So, I don't try to make
him find my work interesting, I let him pursue his own, and support
him in his interests. Whenever he completes a lego vehicle or new
playmobil scene, he comes to get me, and I admire his ingeuinety. He
knows that he is welcome to be a part of what I may be doing if he
does find it interesting, and I will slow down for him, too, to
include him in the work, if that is his need or desire.
My biggest issue is that of the larger society, a society that does
not value children, women's work, or real work, in general. Even
among the pro-child, activist circle in which I run, many of the
mothers, when they come out to do something (support Midwives, do LLL
functions, etc), they leave their children at home. Many times, when
I am out in public, we (me & my children) are the only people,
anywhere, with children, unless it is a place specifically FOR
children. I believe children belong in, and should be within, the
larger society, to learn, to grow, to contribute.
This is, to me, the Continum Concept, applied to our modern, western
life.
laura
--- In [email protected], "Therese"
<theresefranklin@...> wrote:
> all the time, the more unhappy she isthat's western society child-centerdness. what is it? what do you
want? lets do something, what would you like to do? to eat? to
wear?
Children do not need to hear this, they need to believe that we,
their parents, know ourselves, what to do, wear, eat...and that we
are hear from them to teach them, to show them the ways of our
cluture and society (even if it is one we are inventing, ourselves,
as we go along!)
My dd just turned two, and she genuinely helps me throughout the day,
doing sewing projects, building toys and furniature--she has hammered
nails and used the screwdriver correctly-- and she helps fold laundry
and if it weren't for her, the dishes would never get done.
In helping me with the dishes, Ani has gone from just splashing in
the water, to scooping water with various objects, to scooping from
one object to another to pouring water from cups and bowls, to
pouring from one vessle to another. She has also gone from dropping
dishes into the sink, to now, very carefully placing each dish, one
at a time, into the dish water. In all this time, we have broken one
glass and one very old, already chipped small plate. And we use zero
plastic, all materials in our kitchen are real.
I think both of my kids know, that if mommy doesn't get her work
done, like going to the grocery store, working the garden, cleaning
the kitchen, preparing meals, we really do not eat. It is a matter
of life and death, the work we do and I take it seriously, and they,
too, grasp the seriousness of life's necessities.
DDs daddy, he just doesnt know what to do with her when he tries to
play with her, because he does the thing above, "what do you
want" "what is it, Ani, what would you like to do?" She's two, she
wants YOU to do something interesting, something that she can learn
from, something that is a rich experience. That's why she follows me
around all day, because I do interesting stuff, and take the time to
include her in it all.
Now, my son, who's much older (11 next Friday!), he's not quite as
keen on watching me work any longer, but he loved to watch me when he
was a baby. Actually, I think that's where he got his love of
musical theatre, because I thought I should be talking to him as I
worked, but I didnt know what to "say" to a baby about cleaning and
cooking and so on, so I just sung about everything I did, all day
long, throughout the day. Whistle while you work? He wasn't as
physically included in the work, but he was still with me, being a
part of the larger plan that keeps life going.
At this point, though, he's beginning to embark on his own vocation
and isn't as interested in my daily drudgery. He actually said one
day, "I don't need to learn how to do dishes, I'm going to be rich,
and I will not have to do dishes when I am older." Good plan, and
he's probably right. I think he's also afraid I may ask HIM to do
some of the work, and he's learned--from schooling--that "work" is
not fun or importatnt; rather it is a trivial time-waster. We're
still deschooling, in that sense, with him. So, I don't try to make
him find my work interesting, I let him pursue his own, and support
him in his interests. Whenever he completes a lego vehicle or new
playmobil scene, he comes to get me, and I admire his ingeuinety. He
knows that he is welcome to be a part of what I may be doing if he
does find it interesting, and I will slow down for him, too, to
include him in the work, if that is his need or desire.
My biggest issue is that of the larger society, a society that does
not value children, women's work, or real work, in general. Even
among the pro-child, activist circle in which I run, many of the
mothers, when they come out to do something (support Midwives, do LLL
functions, etc), they leave their children at home. Many times, when
I am out in public, we (me & my children) are the only people,
anywhere, with children, unless it is a place specifically FOR
children. I believe children belong in, and should be within, the
larger society, to learn, to grow, to contribute.
This is, to me, the Continum Concept, applied to our modern, western
life.
laura
--- In [email protected], "Therese"
<theresefranklin@...> wrote:
>child-
> So have most of you read this book? What are your thoughts?
>
> I found it to be highly fascinating.. but difficult to see how to
> apply her wisdom attained from the Yequana, to our Western ways.
> Don't get me wrong, I have worn dd2 to my body, co-sleep and
> breastfed since birth- thats not a problem. But as the kids get to
> that 2 year old stage, it seems that the more I ask what she wants
> all the time, the more unhappy she is. Liedloff seemed to view
> centeredness as the issue because what she saw was the Yequanaof 'adult
> children being rarely the 'center' of attention, instead the adults
> were focused on doing their work in order to survive, while the
> children were steeped in this real-life learning.
>
> I think my dd's are looking for me to be more of a leader. To go
> about more adult- real-world activities for her to view / be apart
> of.
>
> Here is the article by Liedloff about 'Whose in control'..
>
> http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html
>
> The problem I am running into is that I have no problem going about
> my day- but I worry that my dd's are frustrated at the lack
> stuff I do' when what they mostly sees is A.) Me on the computerand
> B.) Doing static things like dishes and laundry, etc. Whereas theabout
> Yequana children, while not being the 'center' of attention, were
> entrenched in real-world survival skills around them all the time.
>
> So this thinking led me to this AWSOME article by Scott Noelle
> this very subject;of "child-
> http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm
>
> WOW. AWSOME...
>
> "My first suggestion is to reclaim the positive connotation
> centered" and accept the label proudly: "I am child-centeredbecause
> I am committed to making sure my child's needs are met." Then give
> him your direct attention when it feels right to you. (When you're
> attuned, it won't feel right to you if it's not right for him.)"
>
> Still, this leads me back to the question of HOW to strike that
> balance- of being in tune with my child's needs and also being a
> leader while giving my girls a rich environment they can learn from?
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
that's western society child-centerdness. what is it? what do you
want? lets do something, what would you like to do? to eat? to
wear?
Children do not need to hear this, they need to believe that we,
their parents, know ourselves, what to do, wear, eat...and that we
are hear from them to teach them, to show them the ways of our
cluture and society (even if it is one we are inventing, ourselves,
as we go along!)
My dd just turned two, and she genuinely helps me throughout the day,
doing sewing projects, building toys and furniature-- she has hammered
nails and used the screwdriver correctly-- and she helps fold laundry
and if it weren't for her, the dishes would never get done.
In helping me with the dishes, Ani has gone from just splashing in
the water, to scooping water with various objects, to scooping from
one object to another to pouring water from cups and bowls, to
pouring from one vessle to another. She has also gone from dropping
dishes into the sink, to now, very carefully placing each dish, one
at a time, into the dish water. In all this time, we have broken one
glass and one very old, already chipped small plate. And we use zero
plastic, all materials in our kitchen are real.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Well my 2 year old know exactly what she wants to do and eat every time so did her brother when he was a tot.
This is a little girls that does chores everyday with dad in a Dairy Farm. She works between 2 and 5 hours most days.
She wakes up like today when the calves where beloring (sp) for food and said she needed to go feed them.
She absolutely loves to work with the cows, feed the animals, clean, take care of them.
She has been like that since she was 15 months old.
She also knows what she wants to eat and play. I may give her ideas but she can easily pick one of them or non.
Maybe is more of a personality thing.
My son is pretty much the same way and was just like that as a little boy.
He always knew what he wanted unless he was too tired and overwhelmed to be able to communicate.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
want? lets do something, what would you like to do? to eat? to
wear?
Children do not need to hear this, they need to believe that we,
their parents, know ourselves, what to do, wear, eat...and that we
are hear from them to teach them, to show them the ways of our
cluture and society (even if it is one we are inventing, ourselves,
as we go along!)
My dd just turned two, and she genuinely helps me throughout the day,
doing sewing projects, building toys and furniature-- she has hammered
nails and used the screwdriver correctly-- and she helps fold laundry
and if it weren't for her, the dishes would never get done.
In helping me with the dishes, Ani has gone from just splashing in
the water, to scooping water with various objects, to scooping from
one object to another to pouring water from cups and bowls, to
pouring from one vessle to another. She has also gone from dropping
dishes into the sink, to now, very carefully placing each dish, one
at a time, into the dish water. In all this time, we have broken one
glass and one very old, already chipped small plate. And we use zero
plastic, all materials in our kitchen are real.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Well my 2 year old know exactly what she wants to do and eat every time so did her brother when he was a tot.
This is a little girls that does chores everyday with dad in a Dairy Farm. She works between 2 and 5 hours most days.
She wakes up like today when the calves where beloring (sp) for food and said she needed to go feed them.
She absolutely loves to work with the cows, feed the animals, clean, take care of them.
She has been like that since she was 15 months old.
She also knows what she wants to eat and play. I may give her ideas but she can easily pick one of them or non.
Maybe is more of a personality thing.
My son is pretty much the same way and was just like that as a little boy.
He always knew what he wanted unless he was too tired and overwhelmed to be able to communicate.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 11, 2008, at 11:48 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
she definitely wants, or doesn't want but often leans toward "nothing
jumps out at me so anything". Probably genetic. I'm the same.
She'd decide to go play with her toys and draw but I can't ever
remember her saying "Let's bake cookies!" or "I want to paint!" If it
involved me, I'd have to come up with those ideas. Definitely no
inclination towards directing other people!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe is more of a personality thing.I'd definitely guess a personality thing. Kat sometimes has something
she definitely wants, or doesn't want but often leans toward "nothing
jumps out at me so anything". Probably genetic. I'm the same.
She'd decide to go play with her toys and draw but I can't ever
remember her saying "Let's bake cookies!" or "I want to paint!" If it
involved me, I'd have to come up with those ideas. Definitely no
inclination towards directing other people!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
There are times when ds doesn't know or hasn't considered what he wants but
mostly this is *not* him. He generally does know. :)
*I'm* one for not being near as decisive. I've learned about leadership
quite a bit since being around the little guy. Because there are some
things I really do want and am determined about. How to be flexible in the
midst of that is a real eye-opener for a former "solely a follower" like
me.
Watching a child who is different in many ways from the parent gives that
parent the opportunity to see the development of who the child is growing to
be. Getting to know your child/ren.
Our culture is *way* different from Yequana. I can't observe cultures (ours
or others) objectively enough to get a clear picture. The only real
similarity that I can see is that all cultures are creations of gazillions
of generations. The details are debatable and depend on someone's
interpretation.
~Katherine
mostly this is *not* him. He generally does know. :)
*I'm* one for not being near as decisive. I've learned about leadership
quite a bit since being around the little guy. Because there are some
things I really do want and am determined about. How to be flexible in the
midst of that is a real eye-opener for a former "solely a follower" like
me.
Watching a child who is different in many ways from the parent gives that
parent the opportunity to see the development of who the child is growing to
be. Getting to know your child/ren.
Our culture is *way* different from Yequana. I can't observe cultures (ours
or others) objectively enough to get a clear picture. The only real
similarity that I can see is that all cultures are creations of gazillions
of generations. The details are debatable and depend on someone's
interpretation.
~Katherine
On 7/11/08, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Well my 2 year old know exactly what she wants to do and eat every time so
> did her brother when he was a tot.
> This is a little girls that does chores everyday with dad in a Dairy Farm.
> She works between 2 and 5 hours most days.
> She wakes up like today when the calves where beloring (sp) for food and
> said she needed to go feed them.
> She absolutely loves to work with the cows, feed the animals, clean, take
> care of them.
> She has been like that since she was 15 months old.
> She also knows what she wants to eat and play. I may give her ideas but she
> can easily pick one of them or non.
> Maybe is more of a personality thing.
> My son is pretty much the same way and was just like that as a little boy.
> He always knew what he wanted unless he was too tired and overwhelmed to be
> able to communicate.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
in many ways than onto Ray, who is so very different. Parenting Ray
has always involved more s-t-r-e-t-c-h-ing on my part. That's been a
good thing.
Morgan almost always knows what she wants to do - the other day she
was sitting on the back porch and George asked her if she wanted to
do a project and she replied: "No, I'm doing Nothing. Its on my
list."
Ray doesn't necessarily know what he wants to do, but he often knows
if he wants to be social, be alone, be with a group, be with one
person.... The specific "what" isn't as important to him as the
social environment.
ideas - its a way of "thinking outside the box" of our own culture.
But I don't think its helpful to climb into someone else's box
wholesale, as it were.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
>> Watching a child who is different in many ways from the parentgives that
> parent the opportunity to see the development of who the child isgrowing to
> be. Getting to know your child/ren.Yes, its much easier for me to "project" onto Morgan, who is like me
in many ways than onto Ray, who is so very different. Parenting Ray
has always involved more s-t-r-e-t-c-h-ing on my part. That's been a
good thing.
Morgan almost always knows what she wants to do - the other day she
was sitting on the back porch and George asked her if she wanted to
do a project and she replied: "No, I'm doing Nothing. Its on my
list."
Ray doesn't necessarily know what he wants to do, but he often knows
if he wants to be social, be alone, be with a group, be with one
person.... The specific "what" isn't as important to him as the
social environment.
> Our culture is *way* different from Yequana.Yes. I think it can be really valuble to look to other cultures for
ideas - its a way of "thinking outside the box" of our own culture.
But I don't think its helpful to climb into someone else's box
wholesale, as it were.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)