smoking cigarettes.........
ann329851
anyone managed to quit the stuff, or had comments or the kids copying
mum with a pretend ciggy crayon ?/ just asking for input and ideas, as
i have had an interesting debate with some friends whos kids are
schooled and have very interesting ideas as to a 15 year old and
smoking. what are other peoples opinions on this ?/ will a kid smoke
just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, hell do it
anyway ? ann
mum with a pretend ciggy crayon ?/ just asking for input and ideas, as
i have had an interesting debate with some friends whos kids are
schooled and have very interesting ideas as to a 15 year old and
smoking. what are other peoples opinions on this ?/ will a kid smoke
just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, hell do it
anyway ? ann
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 30, 2008, at 11:16 AM, ann329851 wrote:
what conventionally parented schooled kids are like. (Even they
aren't all the same.)
But there are profound differences between schooled kids and
mindfully parented unschooled kids. The difference comes from knowing
their parents are their partners who trust and respect them.
Teen rebellion is not an essential part of being a teen. It's caused
by control.
The unfortunate thing is is that parents think that they need to
control their kids until the kids stop "acting up". But the acting up
is being caused by control and not being listened to. We don't get to
use mindful parenting because our kids are "good", our kids are
"good" because they're mindfully parented.
Gut feeling is that nearly all if not all of kids smoking is caused
by conventional parenting. Smoking is a form of rebellion. Kids who
feel their parents are there to help them get what they want from
life, what's there to rebel against?
When parents draw lines their kids can't cross, the kids hear "You're
not competent to handle this." It's a challenge! When we stop telling
them they're incompetent, when we help them find safe and courteous
ways to do what they want, then they challenge themselves in sensible
ways, rather than challenging themselves on all the things they're
told they can't do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> i have had an interesting debate with some friends whos kids areMost people think they know what kids are like but they really know
> schooled
what conventionally parented schooled kids are like. (Even they
aren't all the same.)
But there are profound differences between schooled kids and
mindfully parented unschooled kids. The difference comes from knowing
their parents are their partners who trust and respect them.
Teen rebellion is not an essential part of being a teen. It's caused
by control.
The unfortunate thing is is that parents think that they need to
control their kids until the kids stop "acting up". But the acting up
is being caused by control and not being listened to. We don't get to
use mindful parenting because our kids are "good", our kids are
"good" because they're mindfully parented.
> ?/ will a kid smokeMy mom smoked. Neither I nor my sister did.
> just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, hell
> do it
> anyway ?
Gut feeling is that nearly all if not all of kids smoking is caused
by conventional parenting. Smoking is a form of rebellion. Kids who
feel their parents are there to help them get what they want from
life, what's there to rebel against?
When parents draw lines their kids can't cross, the kids hear "You're
not competent to handle this." It's a challenge! When we stop telling
them they're incompetent, when we help them find safe and courteous
ways to do what they want, then they challenge themselves in sensible
ways, rather than challenging themselves on all the things they're
told they can't do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
?/ will a kid smoke
just cos his parents do ?/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think I did. I used to smoke. I started at 15. My mom smoked until her early 40's when my older brother passed away.
My father smoked on and off.
So I smoked.
But I was able to stop anytime I wanted no problem. I have smoked on and off since then ( much more off then on)
Now it has been 7 years since I last smoked.I really have no difficulty stopping. I always hated the smoke and the smell.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just cos his parents do ?/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think I did. I used to smoke. I started at 15. My mom smoked until her early 40's when my older brother passed away.
My father smoked on and off.
So I smoked.
But I was able to stop anytime I wanted no problem. I have smoked on and off since then ( much more off then on)
Now it has been 7 years since I last smoked.I really have no difficulty stopping. I always hated the smoke and the smell.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Gut feeling is that nearly all if not all of kids smoking is caused
by conventional parenting. Smoking is a form of rebellion. Kids who
feel their parents are there to help them get what they want from
life, what's there to rebel against?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
I was schooled but I did not smoke out of rebellion. My parents never said I could not smoke. They did tell me it was not good for my health , but heck they were doing themselves.
They even got the cigarettes for me.
So not all smoking comes from rebelling but I agree that probably most do.
My parents were very "on my side" when I was a teen. Really they did back me up in everything.
We could drink. But none of us kids is really a drinker.
Of the 4 of us me and my brother smoked. My sister and younger brother never did.
My parents always talked about how bad cigarettes were in a non judgmental way, but they smoked. Specially my mom.
She was crazy without a cigarette. Back when I was young smoking was "kind of cool"!
I too remember smoking my chocolate cigarettes as a young child.
Myabe because it was no rebellion it was so easy to quit.
My mom always talked that when she grew up it was very cool to smoke.
Very elegant. So most people did.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
by conventional parenting. Smoking is a form of rebellion. Kids who
feel their parents are there to help them get what they want from
life, what's there to rebel against?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
I was schooled but I did not smoke out of rebellion. My parents never said I could not smoke. They did tell me it was not good for my health , but heck they were doing themselves.
They even got the cigarettes for me.
So not all smoking comes from rebelling but I agree that probably most do.
My parents were very "on my side" when I was a teen. Really they did back me up in everything.
We could drink. But none of us kids is really a drinker.
Of the 4 of us me and my brother smoked. My sister and younger brother never did.
My parents always talked about how bad cigarettes were in a non judgmental way, but they smoked. Specially my mom.
She was crazy without a cigarette. Back when I was young smoking was "kind of cool"!
I too remember smoking my chocolate cigarettes as a young child.
Myabe because it was no rebellion it was so easy to quit.
My mom always talked that when she grew up it was very cool to smoke.
Very elegant. So most people did.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
One of the reasons that is given for smoking or for drinking or for any other risk taking behavior is that it not only gets you greater access to other people it also may help you to have higher status within a group.
I spent some time looking for an article that would lay it out more clearly than I feel like I'm able to and found this quote:
In one of Steinberg's earlier studies, the number of risks teens took in a
video driving game more than doubled in the presence of their peers, compared
to when they engaged in the game alone. The presence of peers increased risk
taking by 50% in college undergraduates who participated in the study, but it
did not influence the number of risks older adults took.
When peers are not around and in situations which are not emotionally
charged, teens tend to be much better at controlling impulsive or risky
behaviors.
It's from this http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20070413/teens-are-hardwired-for-risky-behavior.
I found one and David's job gave me access to it. "Life-history theory and risky drinking" by Elizabeth M. Hill and Kristy Chow. It's a review paper looking at the demographics of people who are likely to do risk taking behavior. It reminded me of one the reasons that people engage risk taking behavior that I'd forgotten. The idea that choices based on short term outcomes trump decisions made on long term outcomes if you don't feel like there is going to be a long term. There is a book by Jim Chisholm that looks at sexual frequency and number of partners when compared with the sense that the person being asked has of how long they will live. Or at least that is some part of the book:http://tinyurl.com/6oakpd.
Cigarette smoking has benefits, not necessarily health benefits, although it does have some health benefits. Just as many risk taking behaviors do have a benefit. The benefit may be access to a certain social group or moving up in the hierarchy of that group. I smoked at 12 and it was like passport for getting me accepted into the social group that I wanted to accept me. If the short term benefits of smoking are great enough than the long term risks should be less important. And if you think you are going to die earlier than you shouldn't worry so much about the long term risks. So environment is really important to risk taking behavior. I'll quote this from the article: In a survey of women university students, their expectation of a shorter life-span was associated with more childhood stressors (such as divorce or loss of parents; Chisholm 1999b). That means that the better the home enviroment, the more likely that someone will make choices based on
long term benefits over short term benefits. So, even if adults are smoking, if it is a relaxed home, children may not smoke.
(1999b is Chisholm, J. S. (1999b) Attachment and time preference: relations between early stress and sexual behavior in a sample of American university women. Human Nature, 10, 51–83.) I wonder if that was I was thinking of rather than the book?
Ohh, ohh, just found this paper by Tamas Bereczkei, whose stuff I adore:
Stressful family environment, mortality, and child socialisation:
Life-history strategies among adolescents and adults from unfavourable
social circumstances Tamas Bereczkei
Janus Pannonius University, Pecs, Hungary
Andras Csanaky
Janus Pannonius University, Pecs, Hungary
This study, based on questionnaires given to 732 subjects, usesan integrative approach with a focus on evolutionary(life-history) explanations. In accordance withBelsky, Steinberg, and Draper’s theoretical model of socialisation (1991), we claim that experiences during childhoodtrigger variations in the life cycle and shiftdevelopmental trajectories as adaptive answers to different environmental conditions. Unfavourable familyconditions constitute an unpredictable and unstableenvironment that make children susceptible to adopting opportunistic mating strategies rather than parenting strategies.Based on Chisholm’s statement (1993) thathigh stress in the family provides cues for local death rates, we argue that mortality rates may have a significanteffect on reproductive decisions, even in post-industrialsocieties. We report that length of schooling, date
of the first marriage, and fertility were associatedwith the subjects’ family conditions,such as parental affirmation, emotional atmosphere,parent-subject conflicts, and parental relations. Women growingup in unfavourable family circumstances finishschooling and marry earlier, and this shiftin developmental trajectory is likely to lead to the highernumber of children measured among these women.Men, on the other hand, do not show such a differencein reproductive output, which may be due to their increasedinvolvement in sexual competition. Remarkably,significant correlation has been found between life-history strategy and mortality rates; those coming fromunfavourable environments have more deceasedsisters and brothers than others. It is possible that individual differences in mating and parenting behaviourare still
contingent, among others, on localdeath rates.
Anyhow, I think I've jumped around a lot. I've written this over about 8 hours with many other things happening inbetween. If anyone wants a copy of Elizabeth Hill's paper I think I can e-mail from David's e-mail.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: ann329851 <annworsley991@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 30 June, 2008 4:16:45 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] smoking cigarettes.........
anyone managed to quit the stuff, or had comments or the kids copying
mum with a pretend ciggy crayon ?/ just asking for input and ideas, as
i have had an interesting debate with some friends whos kids are
schooled and have very interesting ideas as to a 15 year old and
smoking. what are other peoples opinions on this ?/ will a kid smoke
just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, hell do it
anyway ? ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I spent some time looking for an article that would lay it out more clearly than I feel like I'm able to and found this quote:
In one of Steinberg's earlier studies, the number of risks teens took in a
video driving game more than doubled in the presence of their peers, compared
to when they engaged in the game alone. The presence of peers increased risk
taking by 50% in college undergraduates who participated in the study, but it
did not influence the number of risks older adults took.
When peers are not around and in situations which are not emotionally
charged, teens tend to be much better at controlling impulsive or risky
behaviors.
It's from this http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20070413/teens-are-hardwired-for-risky-behavior.
I found one and David's job gave me access to it. "Life-history theory and risky drinking" by Elizabeth M. Hill and Kristy Chow. It's a review paper looking at the demographics of people who are likely to do risk taking behavior. It reminded me of one the reasons that people engage risk taking behavior that I'd forgotten. The idea that choices based on short term outcomes trump decisions made on long term outcomes if you don't feel like there is going to be a long term. There is a book by Jim Chisholm that looks at sexual frequency and number of partners when compared with the sense that the person being asked has of how long they will live. Or at least that is some part of the book:http://tinyurl.com/6oakpd.
Cigarette smoking has benefits, not necessarily health benefits, although it does have some health benefits. Just as many risk taking behaviors do have a benefit. The benefit may be access to a certain social group or moving up in the hierarchy of that group. I smoked at 12 and it was like passport for getting me accepted into the social group that I wanted to accept me. If the short term benefits of smoking are great enough than the long term risks should be less important. And if you think you are going to die earlier than you shouldn't worry so much about the long term risks. So environment is really important to risk taking behavior. I'll quote this from the article: In a survey of women university students, their expectation of a shorter life-span was associated with more childhood stressors (such as divorce or loss of parents; Chisholm 1999b). That means that the better the home enviroment, the more likely that someone will make choices based on
long term benefits over short term benefits. So, even if adults are smoking, if it is a relaxed home, children may not smoke.
(1999b is Chisholm, J. S. (1999b) Attachment and time preference: relations between early stress and sexual behavior in a sample of American university women. Human Nature, 10, 51–83.) I wonder if that was I was thinking of rather than the book?
Ohh, ohh, just found this paper by Tamas Bereczkei, whose stuff I adore:
Stressful family environment, mortality, and child socialisation:
Life-history strategies among adolescents and adults from unfavourable
social circumstances Tamas Bereczkei
Janus Pannonius University, Pecs, Hungary
Andras Csanaky
Janus Pannonius University, Pecs, Hungary
This study, based on questionnaires given to 732 subjects, usesan integrative approach with a focus on evolutionary(life-history) explanations. In accordance withBelsky, Steinberg, and Draper’s theoretical model of socialisation (1991), we claim that experiences during childhoodtrigger variations in the life cycle and shiftdevelopmental trajectories as adaptive answers to different environmental conditions. Unfavourable familyconditions constitute an unpredictable and unstableenvironment that make children susceptible to adopting opportunistic mating strategies rather than parenting strategies.Based on Chisholm’s statement (1993) thathigh stress in the family provides cues for local death rates, we argue that mortality rates may have a significanteffect on reproductive decisions, even in post-industrialsocieties. We report that length of schooling, date
of the first marriage, and fertility were associatedwith the subjects’ family conditions,such as parental affirmation, emotional atmosphere,parent-subject conflicts, and parental relations. Women growingup in unfavourable family circumstances finishschooling and marry earlier, and this shiftin developmental trajectory is likely to lead to the highernumber of children measured among these women.Men, on the other hand, do not show such a differencein reproductive output, which may be due to their increasedinvolvement in sexual competition. Remarkably,significant correlation has been found between life-history strategy and mortality rates; those coming fromunfavourable environments have more deceasedsisters and brothers than others. It is possible that individual differences in mating and parenting behaviourare still
contingent, among others, on localdeath rates.
Anyhow, I think I've jumped around a lot. I've written this over about 8 hours with many other things happening inbetween. If anyone wants a copy of Elizabeth Hill's paper I think I can e-mail from David's e-mail.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: ann329851 <annworsley991@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 30 June, 2008 4:16:45 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] smoking cigarettes.........
anyone managed to quit the stuff, or had comments or the kids copying
mum with a pretend ciggy crayon ?/ just asking for input and ideas, as
i have had an interesting debate with some friends whos kids are
schooled and have very interesting ideas as to a 15 year old and
smoking. what are other peoples opinions on this ?/ will a kid smoke
just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, hell do it
anyway ? ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "ann329851"
<annworsley991@...> wrote:
liked the smell of the smoke. My dad found out about it pretty
quickly and totally freaked. My mom just sat me down and asked if I
thought it was fair for her to ask me not to smoke. I said no
because she smoked. So she asked if I would agree not to smoke
until I was 18 which I did. I started smoking again at 19 when I
was in college and doing the bar thing. I quit when I was 28 and my
dd was 3.
She always complained about the smoking and I never smoked in the
house. She has always disliked smoke and will complain if anyone
smokes around her. She is 15 now and never had any interest in
trying cigarettes. So far she seems to be very careful who she
hangs out with that they are not into things she's not ready for.
I'm amazed at her sense of judgment.
Kelly
<annworsley991@...> wrote:
>will a kid smoke
> just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, helldo it
> anyway ? annI smoked briefly when I was 14 mostly because my mom smoked and I
>
liked the smell of the smoke. My dad found out about it pretty
quickly and totally freaked. My mom just sat me down and asked if I
thought it was fair for her to ask me not to smoke. I said no
because she smoked. So she asked if I would agree not to smoke
until I was 18 which I did. I started smoking again at 19 when I
was in college and doing the bar thing. I quit when I was 28 and my
dd was 3.
She always complained about the smoking and I never smoked in the
house. She has always disliked smoke and will complain if anyone
smokes around her. She is 15 now and never had any interest in
trying cigarettes. So far she seems to be very careful who she
hangs out with that they are not into things she's not ready for.
I'm amazed at her sense of judgment.
Kelly
[email protected]
My husband's parents both smoked. He started smoking on his 18th birthday,
cause he was a good boy and they'd insisted he couldn't smoke till he was 18.
One of his sisters smoked till she became a mother, the other never did. Neither
of my parents smoked. Of their five children, three smoked. I started smoking
at 13. I was a pretty determined kid, kept at it though it made me sick. My
oldest son, now 30, started smoking at 16. My 23yo daughter snuck a few when
she was 11 or so but remains a nonsmoker. I don't think either of the 16yo's
have tried but I could be wrong, in any case neither is a smoker.
Both my husband and I stopped smoking 9 years ago.
Deborah in IL
**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cause he was a good boy and they'd insisted he couldn't smoke till he was 18.
One of his sisters smoked till she became a mother, the other never did. Neither
of my parents smoked. Of their five children, three smoked. I started smoking
at 13. I was a pretty determined kid, kept at it though it made me sick. My
oldest son, now 30, started smoking at 16. My 23yo daughter snuck a few when
she was 11 or so but remains a nonsmoker. I don't think either of the 16yo's
have tried but I could be wrong, in any case neither is a smoker.
Both my husband and I stopped smoking 9 years ago.
Deborah in IL
**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
> will a kid smoke just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' ohhes 15, hell do it anyway
FWIW My dad smoked for my entire childhood - he quit when I was about 24
(which was almost 25 years ago!) My mom quit when I was about 3. Most of
the extended family smoked for most of my childhood - family gatherings
usually included clouds of cigarette smoke and lots of coffee. I've
never smoked anything. So 'just cause parents do' or 'just because
s/he's x age' really applies globally. None of my siblings smokes (I
don't know if they smoked anything when they were away at college but
I've never seen them smoke nor heard them talk about it). But then
again, juxtaposed against widespread cigarette smoking all around, we
also saw one uncle get his lung cut out because of cancer and then die
anyway and both grandfathers die of smoking related cancers (and one
grandpa asking for cigarettes while in an oxygen tent in the hospital
even!) Personally, I just never saw any compelling reason to get
involved with it - the smoke just smelled bad (it was awful when we
visited relatives and got stuck in the car with dad for several hours
with the windows closed up in winter) and it cost $$ even back then.
Fast forward to my now 10 yr old DS. MIL and SILs (and some of their
friends) smoke. DS thinks it's nasty smelling and wants nothing to do
with it, to the point of not wanting to hug MIL when she's been outside
smoking and comes back in (thankfully, no one smokes inside ANY house -
ours or theirs). Every once in a while one of those public service Talk
to your kids about smoking commercials comes on and we say "do we need
to talk to you about this?" and he just says Nope, so we don't belabor
the point.
Deb
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Robin Bentley
Both my parents smoked (and I developed bronchitis almost every
winter, but we didn't know it was caused, at least in part, by the
secondhand smoke). My brother, the eldest, never smoked that I know
of. My older sister did and I had my first cigarette around the age of
11. I started smoking in earnest around 14, because my boyfriend smoked.
My smoking wasn't very noticeable, as everyone's clothes smelled
smoky, as did the house. I was 15 when I told my mother that I was
smoking (before I went across the country to visit a friend, because I
knew her mother would tell my mother and I preferred that she know it
from me). I knew she wouldn't forbid it and I really didn't ask for
permission.
I quit smoking at 19 when I went with a fellow who eventually became
my first husband. He didn't smoke. I have had a couple of cigarettes
since (in really stressful situations), but I haven't "smoked" for 33
years now. My parents also quit in their 50's, my sister in her 40's.
When I was a teen, it was "cool" to smoke. I even liked it. But things
change. I had to make the decisions myself. It wouldn't have helped to
be forbidden or ragged on. However, I didn't have accurate (or even
inaccurate) information made available to me at that time, so that I
*could* make a more informed decision. I smoked to fit in and to
please others, anyway, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. I
also quit to do the same. Who knows what I might decide later on in
life (even given everything I know about its apparent dangers)? <g>
Robin B.
P.S. I *loved* pretending to smoke with candy (both the sugary kind
and bubble gum) cigarettes when I was little. My friends and I
thought we were very glamorous....
winter, but we didn't know it was caused, at least in part, by the
secondhand smoke). My brother, the eldest, never smoked that I know
of. My older sister did and I had my first cigarette around the age of
11. I started smoking in earnest around 14, because my boyfriend smoked.
My smoking wasn't very noticeable, as everyone's clothes smelled
smoky, as did the house. I was 15 when I told my mother that I was
smoking (before I went across the country to visit a friend, because I
knew her mother would tell my mother and I preferred that she know it
from me). I knew she wouldn't forbid it and I really didn't ask for
permission.
I quit smoking at 19 when I went with a fellow who eventually became
my first husband. He didn't smoke. I have had a couple of cigarettes
since (in really stressful situations), but I haven't "smoked" for 33
years now. My parents also quit in their 50's, my sister in her 40's.
When I was a teen, it was "cool" to smoke. I even liked it. But things
change. I had to make the decisions myself. It wouldn't have helped to
be forbidden or ragged on. However, I didn't have accurate (or even
inaccurate) information made available to me at that time, so that I
*could* make a more informed decision. I smoked to fit in and to
please others, anyway, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. I
also quit to do the same. Who knows what I might decide later on in
life (even given everything I know about its apparent dangers)? <g>
Robin B.
P.S. I *loved* pretending to smoke with candy (both the sugary kind
and bubble gum) cigarettes when I was little. My friends and I
thought we were very glamorous....
On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:39 AM, DACunefare@... wrote:
> My husband's parents both smoked. He started smoking on his 18th
> birthday,
> cause he was a good boy and they'd insisted he couldn't smoke till
> he was 18.
> One of his sisters smoked till she became a mother, the other never
> did. Neither
> of my parents smoked. Of their five children, three smoked. I
> started smoking
> at 13. I was a pretty determined kid, kept at it though it made me
> sick. My
> oldest son, now 30, started smoking at 16. My 23yo daughter snuck a
> few when
> she was 11 or so but remains a nonsmoker. I don't think either of
> the 16yo's
> have tried but I could be wrong, in any case neither is a smoker.
>
> Both my husband and I stopped smoking 9 years ago.
>
> Deborah in IL
>
>
> **************
> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
> fuel-efficient used cars.
>
> (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Robin Bentley
I should mention that both my dh's parents smoked when he was growing
up, though his dad quit in his 40's. None of the four kids smoked and
none of their kids smoke (though they may have tried it). Our dd (13)
was horrified to learn that some of her unschooled friends dabble in
smoking - she has no use for it herself.
Robin B.
up, though his dad quit in his 40's. None of the four kids smoked and
none of their kids smoke (though they may have tried it). Our dd (13)
was horrified to learn that some of her unschooled friends dabble in
smoking - she has no use for it herself.
Robin B.
On Jul 1, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Robin Bentley wrote:
> Both my parents smoked (and I developed bronchitis almost every
> winter, but we didn't know it was caused, at least in part, by the
> secondhand smoke). My brother, the eldest, never smoked that I know
> of. My older sister did and I had my first cigarette around the age of
> 11. I started smoking in earnest around 14, because my boyfriend
> smoked.
Debra Rossing
> Gut feeling is that nearly all if not all of kids smoking is caused byconventional parenting. Smoking is a form of rebellion
I'd like to add another factor in there - self-medication from stressful
situations and lack of control. It's not so much being used to rebel as
it is to feel calmer and more relaxed. I know that my SILs use
cigarettes this way - whenever something stressful arises, whether it's
an argument with a boyfriend or an unexpected expense like a car repair
or job loss, they go out for a cigarette. Sometimes I just want to say
Hey, you'd be able to afford that car repair if you hadn't been smoking
packs and packs of cigs for the last several years. But I don't. They
know that at our house, though, they can smoke outside in the driveway
BUT they have to police their butts - with two dogs and kids around (not
so much anymore but we moved here when DS was 3), I don't want any
chance of some unsuspecting being getting into the bits of tobacco
leftovers and ending up sick or worse, not to mention it looks
disgusting.
Deb
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Debra Rossing
> My mom always talked that when she grew up it was very cool to smoke.Very elegant. So most people did.
When my mom was a young teenager, growing up in Brooklyn, NY (Flatbush
Avenue) she remembers sitting on the front steps of the house
(brownstone row house type situation) one summer evening when the bugs
were coming up (skeeters and gnats and such) and a relative handing each
of them (her and her siblings) a lit cigarette to keep the bugs away.
And that started it. What ended it, according to her (I was too young at
the time to remember) was when I was about 2 or 3 and she was sitting on
the couch with my baby brother in one arm and a cigarette in the other
hand and I asked her 'do you have to do that?' She set about stopping
right then. Good thing too because 3 years later, at the ripe old age of
28, she had a stroke. Had she still been a smoker, the doctors say she
might not have made it. But her body had started repairing the smoking
damage to some extent by then and she's now 71 and loves babysitting her
5 grandkids. My dad, on the other hand, kept smoking. The thing that
kicked his butt was when my sister chose to go to college in northern
FL. It was 1984/85 and planes still had smoking and non-smoking sections
for relatively short flights (NJ to FL is only about 2 hours or so). My
dad got seats in non-smoking as the better choice for my mom. He had to
get up during the flight and go back and find a spot in smoking to light
up. That just aggravated the daylights out of him - that he had to leave
his wife by herself and go have a smoke on a TWO hour flight. So, when
he got back to NJ, he found a hypnotist/behavioral specialist who used
post hypnotic suggestion to help with the 'crazies' and cravings as they
worked behaviorally to cut the strings tied to smoking one by one -
"coffee and a cigarette" snip; "phone call and a cigarette" snip,
"driving and a cigarette" snip, etc. until he could choose to smoke all
he wanted but not while he was actually doing anything else. Then it was
easy to stop. It was kind of fun in a way because us kids were in on
what he was doing but he was saving it as a surprise for my mom's
birthday which happened to coincide with the end of the process. So,
once a week for a couple months that summer, we 'covered' for him when
he got home from work a little later than usual "oh must've been
traffic" or "he mentioned he had to do something for JTIDS (or some
other project - we knew all the acronyms for the stuff he worked on).
He's now 77 going on 78.
Deb
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Debra Rossing
Some of that really resonates with regard to DH's sisters. It's almost
like there are two families because DH and one SIL are close in age but
then there's about a 15 year gap before the younger two SILs. And, in
the time between, the family situation went from fairly stable to shaky
financially and martially. The two olders were adults when MIL and FIL
separated for a time, whereas the younger two were still under 10 at the
time. Though they reconciled and put the household back together
somewhat, there was still a lot of tension and all in the household. And
the two younger SILs are the ones who continue to smoke (the other SIL
smoked for a time and stopped, DH never smoked cigarettes but smoked
other 'plant matter' for a short time right after high school) -
*despite* allergies and serious asthma. Makes me nearly hit the roof
when SIL#3 comes back in from having a cigarette and reaches for her
inhaler!
Deb
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like there are two families because DH and one SIL are close in age but
then there's about a 15 year gap before the younger two SILs. And, in
the time between, the family situation went from fairly stable to shaky
financially and martially. The two olders were adults when MIL and FIL
separated for a time, whereas the younger two were still under 10 at the
time. Though they reconciled and put the household back together
somewhat, there was still a lot of tension and all in the household. And
the two younger SILs are the ones who continue to smoke (the other SIL
smoked for a time and stopped, DH never smoked cigarettes but smoked
other 'plant matter' for a short time right after high school) -
*despite* allergies and serious asthma. Makes me nearly hit the roof
when SIL#3 comes back in from having a cigarette and reaches for her
inhaler!
Deb
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I'd like to add another factor in there - self-medication from stressful
situations and lack of control. It's not so much being used to rebel as
it is to feel calmer and more relaxed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-
Looking back that probably why I smoked most of the time.
When things where stressful. But see I was the good girls that learned to hide her feelings so I kept all bottled up inside.
I still can't handle some feelings well, like anger and frustration.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
situations and lack of control. It's not so much being used to rebel as
it is to feel calmer and more relaxed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-
Looking back that probably why I smoked most of the time.
When things where stressful. But see I was the good girls that learned to hide her feelings so I kept all bottled up inside.
I still can't handle some feelings well, like anger and frustration.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
My father smoked forever, and, in fact, just died a few months ago from
smoking related cancer.
When I was about 12 my parents gathered me and my younger sister and gave us
permission to smoke. I think we each probably tried one or two cigarettes,
but neither of us has ever smoked. They figured it made sense to be open so we
could talk about it rather than have us sneak around. Obviously that worked.
We never did that with Julian because it was largely unnecessary. I suspect
that our giving formal "permission" for anything would've just been
confusing. And as a singer, he never considered doing anything that could screw up
his voice.
Kathryn
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
smoking related cancer.
When I was about 12 my parents gathered me and my younger sister and gave us
permission to smoke. I think we each probably tried one or two cigarettes,
but neither of us has ever smoked. They figured it made sense to be open so we
could talk about it rather than have us sneak around. Obviously that worked.
We never did that with Julian because it was largely unnecessary. I suspect
that our giving formal "permission" for anything would've just been
confusing. And as a singer, he never considered doing anything that could screw up
his voice.
Kathryn
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
> stressful situations and lack of control.Oops In re-reading this I thought that maybe it came out wrong. I didn't
mean lack of control as in unable to control one's own self but rather
feeling as if one has no control over one's own life, being told what to
do, when to do it, how to do it, and so on (the typical lot of most
minors).
Deb
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Katheryn
My always unschooled kids don't seem to have a need for rebellion for
rebellions sake, but they do seem to have a need for experimentation.
So is smoking rebelling or just experimenting? Is experimenting
rebelling?
Kathy
rebellions sake, but they do seem to have a need for experimentation.
So is smoking rebelling or just experimenting? Is experimenting
rebelling?
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] smoking cigarettes.........
On Jun 30, 2008, at 11:16 AM, ann329851 wrote:
> i have had an interesting debate with some friends whos kids are
> schooled
Most people think they know what kids are like but they really know
what conventionally parented schooled kids are like. (Even they
aren't all the same.)
But there are profound differences between schooled kids and
mindfully parented unschooled kids. The difference comes from knowing
their parents are their partners who trust and respect them.
Teen rebellion is not an essential part of being a teen. It's caused
by control.
The unfortunate thing is is that parents think that they need to
control their kids until the kids stop "acting up". But the acting up
is being caused by control and not being listened to. We don't get to
use mindful parenting because our kids are "good", our kids are
"good" because they're mindfully parented.
> ?/ will a kid smoke
> just cos his parents do ?/ and do we just say '' oh hes 15, hell
> do it
> anyway ?
My mom smoked. Neither I nor my sister did.
Gut feeling is that nearly all if not all of kids smoking is caused
by conventional parenting. Smoking is a form of rebellion. Kids who
feel their parents are there to help them get what they want from
life, what's there to rebel against?
When parents draw lines their kids can't cross, the kids hear "You're
not competent to handle this." It's a challenge! When we stop telling
them they're incompetent, when we help them find safe and courteous
ways to do what they want, then they challenge themselves in sensible
ways, rather than challenging themselves on all the things they're
told they can't do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Katheryn <kaculwell@...>
My always unschooled kids don't seem to have a need for rebellion for
rebellions sake, but they do seem to have a need for experimentation.
So is smoking rebelling or just experimenting? Is experimenting
rebelling?
-=-=-=-=-
It depends. <g>
Cameron's big on experimentation. And since we've always encouraged
that, it's counter-intuitive for me to put on brakes when he continues
to experiment.
He wasn't always unschooled. Cam went to school through sixth grade. So
his experience may be colored by school. I'll have more
"alwaysunschooled" info about Duncan in a few years. <g>
But we have gotten a lot of feedback from Cam's friends who *are*
rebelling. There seems to be a big difference in the *depth* they go
and in the risks they choose to take. Cameron looks at their forays as
a "scientist" as well. Or maybe as a sociologist. <g> He does examine
their choices---as well as his own---and what drives them (and him).
*I* think that, if a person has nothing to rebel against, he still may
want to *know* what the buzz is. It's a different paradigm.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Katheryn <kaculwell@...>
My always unschooled kids don't seem to have a need for rebellion for
rebellions sake, but they do seem to have a need for experimentation.
So is smoking rebelling or just experimenting? Is experimenting
rebelling?
-=-=-=-=-
It depends. <g>
Cameron's big on experimentation. And since we've always encouraged
that, it's counter-intuitive for me to put on brakes when he continues
to experiment.
He wasn't always unschooled. Cam went to school through sixth grade. So
his experience may be colored by school. I'll have more
"alwaysunschooled" info about Duncan in a few years. <g>
But we have gotten a lot of feedback from Cam's friends who *are*
rebelling. There seems to be a big difference in the *depth* they go
and in the risks they choose to take. Cameron looks at their forays as
a "scientist" as well. Or maybe as a sociologist. <g> He does examine
their choices---as well as his own---and what drives them (and him).
*I* think that, if a person has nothing to rebel against, he still may
want to *know* what the buzz is. It's a different paradigm.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org