How to screw up unschooling
Ren Allen
Over at Always Learning there is a really interesting thread going
right now. It's titled "How to screw up unschooling" and people are
listing things that can hinder unschooling.
~Buy only "educational" materials
and
~Don't change plans midstream
are a couple examples.
I started to think about it and one of the topics that came to mind is
the whole "unparenting" issue. That word is used as a slam against
those of us that believe strongly in freedom and respect for children.
But I've actually witnessed true "unparenting" in the form of neglect
from some that choose unschooling.
It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
How can unschooling get screwed up?
How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
right now. It's titled "How to screw up unschooling" and people are
listing things that can hinder unschooling.
~Buy only "educational" materials
and
~Don't change plans midstream
are a couple examples.
I started to think about it and one of the topics that came to mind is
the whole "unparenting" issue. That word is used as a slam against
those of us that believe strongly in freedom and respect for children.
But I've actually witnessed true "unparenting" in the form of neglect
from some that choose unschooling.
It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
How can unschooling get screwed up?
How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Nance Confer
Good questions.
Sometimes when I read a comment here, I think of our 2-yo nephew. He has the "benefit" of visiting our unschooled home about 2 days a week. And he is 2 and walking and running and climbing, on us and everything else.
So there are a lot of opportunities to experiment with limits.
Example:
Yes, he is allowed to climb all over me and anyone else who is willing to be climbed on. No, he is not allowed to pull our hair to hoist himself.
He hears "yes" most of the time and a consistent, firm, uncurling fingers from hair "no" as needed.
Yes, we could all shave our heads. But we're not going to do that. :)
He is living in a real family with real things to explore and real limits. More of the former than the latter.
Then he goes back to his home where he lives with his Mom and Grammy. Grammy is a ps teacher. Grammy has a much more decorated and formal house than we do. So he's probably getting a lot of confusing messages about furniture. But what I've seen is that he gets the same sort of gentle, loving, encouraging response from them as he gets from us. So that's a good thing, I think.
No solid point here. I just think of Dear Nephew many times when I read this list. I don't think he's been scewed up by our unschooling lifestyle or that we have failed to unschool correctly. I do think he gets a lot of different inputs.
Nance
It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
How can unschooling get screwed up?
How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sometimes when I read a comment here, I think of our 2-yo nephew. He has the "benefit" of visiting our unschooled home about 2 days a week. And he is 2 and walking and running and climbing, on us and everything else.
So there are a lot of opportunities to experiment with limits.
Example:
Yes, he is allowed to climb all over me and anyone else who is willing to be climbed on. No, he is not allowed to pull our hair to hoist himself.
He hears "yes" most of the time and a consistent, firm, uncurling fingers from hair "no" as needed.
Yes, we could all shave our heads. But we're not going to do that. :)
He is living in a real family with real things to explore and real limits. More of the former than the latter.
Then he goes back to his home where he lives with his Mom and Grammy. Grammy is a ps teacher. Grammy has a much more decorated and formal house than we do. So he's probably getting a lot of confusing messages about furniture. But what I've seen is that he gets the same sort of gentle, loving, encouraging response from them as he gets from us. So that's a good thing, I think.
No solid point here. I just think of Dear Nephew many times when I read this list. I don't think he's been scewed up by our unschooling lifestyle or that we have failed to unschool correctly. I do think he gets a lot of different inputs.
Nance
It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
How can unschooling get screwed up?
How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Coyote
Good Morning,
When we first heard of unschooling, the 'unparenting' part was a big worry. I believe there are things that a child must know. How to cross the street. How to answer, or not answer the door, how to answer the phone, how to be courteous to others, how to respect others space, property and time. I have spoken to parents that think that unschooling, hence unparenting means letting the kids smoke pot, steal, hit each other....because they want to.
To me, unschooling has boundaries. Brianna can't run into the freeway, for example. She can't walk outside naked, she can't steal, she has to be responsible for managing her own money, she has to be responsible for her safety when she is out alone or with friends.
There are many things that our kids need to know. Practical day - to - day stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them these things.
Do we not tell them not to take a bath with a radio?
Do we not stop them from driving a car with out the proper knowledge & practice?
Unschooling doesn't mean not parenting. I think it means parenting with common sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a horribly changing world.
Janis
East Providence, RI
Coyotes Corner
www.coyotescorner.com
401-438-7678
When we first heard of unschooling, the 'unparenting' part was a big worry. I believe there are things that a child must know. How to cross the street. How to answer, or not answer the door, how to answer the phone, how to be courteous to others, how to respect others space, property and time. I have spoken to parents that think that unschooling, hence unparenting means letting the kids smoke pot, steal, hit each other....because they want to.
To me, unschooling has boundaries. Brianna can't run into the freeway, for example. She can't walk outside naked, she can't steal, she has to be responsible for managing her own money, she has to be responsible for her safety when she is out alone or with friends.
There are many things that our kids need to know. Practical day - to - day stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them these things.
Do we not tell them not to take a bath with a radio?
Do we not stop them from driving a car with out the proper knowledge & practice?
Unschooling doesn't mean not parenting. I think it means parenting with common sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a horribly changing world.
Janis
East Providence, RI
Coyotes Corner
www.coyotescorner.com
401-438-7678
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 8:28 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] How to screw up unschooling
Over at Always Learning there is a really interesting thread going
right now. It's titled "How to screw up unschooling" and people are
listing things that can hinder unschooling.
~Buy only "educational" materials
and
~Don't change plans midstream
are a couple examples.
I started to think about it and one of the topics that came to mind is
the whole "unparenting" issue. That word is used as a slam against
those of us that believe strongly in freedom and respect for children.
But I've actually witnessed true "unparenting" in the form of neglect
from some that choose unschooling.
It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
How can unschooling get screwed up?
How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie v.
Ren,
How do unschoolers respectfully say "stop it" or "knock it off, so
and so's not o.k. with that"? This is where we seem to have conflict
with my 6 year old. My husband and I seem to revert back to
mainstream parenting when these types of situations come along and
our son resents being told what to do and will either just continue
until my husband or I feel like we have to step in physically and
remove him or take said toy away because he's hitting someone with
it. We all feel awful after a situation like this, but don't feel
like there is an alternative. Any suggestions? This doesn't happen
often, but when it does it feels like we are damaging our
relationship because everyone gets so upset and my son gets so angry
at us for stopping him. Truly the only time we physically stop him
or take a toy away is when he's hurting another child.
We are respectful in the beginning and say "hey bud, so and so's not
o.k. with that, please stop" and sometimes he does and sometimes he
doesn't. Sometimes we suggest an alternative of what he was doing,
to do it on something else or somewhere else and sometimes this works
and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we try to suggest another game
and that works sometimes and sometimes not.
I guess my question is all on how we word things, which may not seem
like a big deal, but I can tell that my son responds very well when
his needs and wants are being listened to and respected along with
the child he is hitting. It's just hard for me to be respectful when
he's hitting a child with an object and he thinks it's funny & a game
and the other child is wanting him to stop. I usually just blurt
out "hey stop bud, so and so's not liking that game", which doesn't
seem to help either.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Julie v.
http://www.lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
How do unschoolers respectfully say "stop it" or "knock it off, so
and so's not o.k. with that"? This is where we seem to have conflict
with my 6 year old. My husband and I seem to revert back to
mainstream parenting when these types of situations come along and
our son resents being told what to do and will either just continue
until my husband or I feel like we have to step in physically and
remove him or take said toy away because he's hitting someone with
it. We all feel awful after a situation like this, but don't feel
like there is an alternative. Any suggestions? This doesn't happen
often, but when it does it feels like we are damaging our
relationship because everyone gets so upset and my son gets so angry
at us for stopping him. Truly the only time we physically stop him
or take a toy away is when he's hurting another child.
We are respectful in the beginning and say "hey bud, so and so's not
o.k. with that, please stop" and sometimes he does and sometimes he
doesn't. Sometimes we suggest an alternative of what he was doing,
to do it on something else or somewhere else and sometimes this works
and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we try to suggest another game
and that works sometimes and sometimes not.
I guess my question is all on how we word things, which may not seem
like a big deal, but I can tell that my son responds very well when
his needs and wants are being listened to and respected along with
the child he is hitting. It's just hard for me to be respectful when
he's hitting a child with an object and he thinks it's funny & a game
and the other child is wanting him to stop. I usually just blurt
out "hey stop bud, so and so's not liking that game", which doesn't
seem to help either.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Julie v.
http://www.lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>is
>
> I started to think about it and one of the topics that came to mind
> the whole "unparenting" issue. That word is used as a slam againstchildren.
> those of us that believe strongly in freedom and respect for
> But I've actually witnessed true "unparenting" in the form ofneglect
> from some that choose unschooling.
>
> It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
> understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
> isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
> missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
> people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
>
> How can unschooling get screwed up?
> How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
> behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
hbmccarty
I've seen people screw up unschooling by:
Judging their kids' choice of activities instead of spending time with
them and actually seeing what they are doing and learning.
Not supporting their kids interests fully.
Forgetting to enjoy their kids and life in general.
Taking state reporting requirements way too seriously!
Heather
Judging their kids' choice of activities instead of spending time with
them and actually seeing what they are doing and learning.
Not supporting their kids interests fully.
Forgetting to enjoy their kids and life in general.
Taking state reporting requirements way too seriously!
Heather
Jenny C
> How do unschoolers respectfully say "stop it" or "knock it off, soI don't have a problem with being blunt about such things with my kids.
> and so's not o.k. with that"? This is where we seem to have conflict
> with my 6 year old.
> We are respectful in the beginning and say "hey bud, so and so's not
> o.k. with that, please stop" and sometimes he does and sometimes he
> doesn't. Sometimes we suggest an alternative of what he was doing,
> to do it on something else or somewhere else and sometimes this works
> and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we try to suggest another game
> and that works sometimes and sometimes not.
Being blunt doesn't mean being mean or punitive. It's just simple and
straight to the point. Saying to a child that is clearly not respecting
another's personal boundaries, "knock it off" seems appropriate to me,
and perhaps futher saying, "so and so, is clearly not liking that".
Offering alternatives is good, redirecting energy is good, asking nice
first is good.
Perhaps some have kids that may be too sensitive to that, but clear
honest direction has always seemed best for my kids. I think a lot of
5, 6, and 7 yr olds are really just getting clued into all those social
nuances and personal boundaries, most learn how to do better sooner than
later, much through trial and error. Even totally schooled and
traditionally parented kids figure out how to be a little better, even
though other issues surface that unschoolers get to avoid by going one
step further.
k
Children may not look like they're getting it. It takes a lot of time to
develop empathy. It also takes something most of us don't have... most of
us are individualistic enough to pay attention to our own thoughts, ideas,
wishes, etc on some level. Yet we're not particularly attuned to others.
One of the reasons for this =as adults= is the taboo against saying what we
want which so often gets translated as "selfish," but would really help
sometimes. As a result, kids don't typically say what they want either
because they imitate what they see for the most part.
I've had luck intermediating between ds and someone else. By coming up with
alternatives for something another child might prefer. If for instance ds
wants to be rowdy and a tiny reluctant younger kid walks up in tow with a
mom, I might suggest playing on the swing together or at the sandbox,
(something introductory instead of going in full tilt). Sometimes it takes
or...
Redirecting or providing a fun thing to do or playing/talking about
something else can change a bored scene and take the lead out of a hot
situation too. Shifting to a different gear rather than focusing on what's
"wrong." Move on to something new and if possible something fun or just
something mildly interesting. It's doesn't have to win any Emmy's.
I finally have gotten to the place I usually remember to take something
familiar and solitary for ds to do in case he's feeling not so sociable when
we're at someone's house or he doesn't know anybody or there's no kids, like
the library at dinner time or the playgroups he doesn't know well or at a
friend's. Last time we were at a homeschool group and he didn't know the
kids, he had markers, pipecleaners, paper, glitter glue as well as the park
to play in. The other kids played with the craft stuff too. It was sort of
an icebreaker for them as they sat around making stuff together. You can do
the same thing with food or making food.
~Katherine
develop empathy. It also takes something most of us don't have... most of
us are individualistic enough to pay attention to our own thoughts, ideas,
wishes, etc on some level. Yet we're not particularly attuned to others.
One of the reasons for this =as adults= is the taboo against saying what we
want which so often gets translated as "selfish," but would really help
sometimes. As a result, kids don't typically say what they want either
because they imitate what they see for the most part.
I've had luck intermediating between ds and someone else. By coming up with
alternatives for something another child might prefer. If for instance ds
wants to be rowdy and a tiny reluctant younger kid walks up in tow with a
mom, I might suggest playing on the swing together or at the sandbox,
(something introductory instead of going in full tilt). Sometimes it takes
or...
Redirecting or providing a fun thing to do or playing/talking about
something else can change a bored scene and take the lead out of a hot
situation too. Shifting to a different gear rather than focusing on what's
"wrong." Move on to something new and if possible something fun or just
something mildly interesting. It's doesn't have to win any Emmy's.
I finally have gotten to the place I usually remember to take something
familiar and solitary for ds to do in case he's feeling not so sociable when
we're at someone's house or he doesn't know anybody or there's no kids, like
the library at dinner time or the playgroups he doesn't know well or at a
friend's. Last time we were at a homeschool group and he didn't know the
kids, he had markers, pipecleaners, paper, glitter glue as well as the park
to play in. The other kids played with the craft stuff too. It was sort of
an icebreaker for them as they sat around making stuff together. You can do
the same thing with food or making food.
~Katherine
On 6/24/08, Julie v. <thewekkenfam@...> wrote:
>
> Ren,
>
> How do unschoolers respectfully say "stop it" or "knock it off, so
> and so's not o.k. with that"? This is where we seem to have conflict
> with my 6 year old. My husband and I seem to revert back to
> mainstream parenting when these types of situations come along and
> our son resents being told what to do and will either just continue
> until my husband or I feel like we have to step in physically and
> remove him or take said toy away because he's hitting someone with
> it. We all feel awful after a situation like this, but don't feel
> like there is an alternative. Any suggestions? This doesn't happen
> often, but when it does it feels like we are damaging our
> relationship because everyone gets so upset and my son gets so angry
> at us for stopping him. Truly the only time we physically stop him
> or take a toy away is when he's hurting another child.
>
> We are respectful in the beginning and say "hey bud, so and so's not
> o.k. with that, please stop" and sometimes he does and sometimes he
> doesn't. Sometimes we suggest an alternative of what he was doing,
> to do it on something else or somewhere else and sometimes this works
> and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we try to suggest another game
> and that works sometimes and sometimes not.
>
> I guess my question is all on how we word things, which may not seem
> like a big deal, but I can tell that my son responds very well when
> his needs and wants are being listened to and respected along with
> the child he is hitting. It's just hard for me to be respectful when
> he's hitting a child with an object and he thinks it's funny & a game
> and the other child is wanting him to stop. I usually just blurt
> out "hey stop bud, so and so's not liking that game", which doesn't
> seem to help either.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
> Julie v.
> http://www.lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Ren Allen"
> <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I started to think about it and one of the topics that came to mind
> is
> > the whole "unparenting" issue. That word is used as a slam against
> > those of us that believe strongly in freedom and respect for
> children.
> > But I've actually witnessed true "unparenting" in the form of
> neglect
> > from some that choose unschooling.
> >
> > It's not pretty. We talk so much about freedoms, do we help people
> > understand how unschoolers respectfully say "knock it off" or "that
> > isn't cool" or "I'm not ok with this"? I think that part can get
> > missed at these lists. How do you respect the individual AND other
> > people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
> >
> > How can unschooling get screwed up?
> > How can we create conditions for it to flourish and what kind of
> > behaviors/activities inhibit joyful unschooling?
> >
> > Ren
> > learninginfreedom.com
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Coyote <janis@...>
believe there are things that a child must know.
-=-=-=-=-
All children? Or just yours?
-==-=-==-
Is there a certain way? Is it valid in all situations?
-=-=-=-=-
Again, is there protocol for this?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I learned a certain way in second grade. Another from my mother. And
another while in Germany. I bet there are zillions of ways to answer a
phone.
-=-=-==-=-
smoke pot,
steal, hit each other....because they want to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What unschoolers? Where?
-=-=-=-=-
For everyone?
For example?
-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-
Cameron did. On the way to Bonaroo when traffic was stopped for miles
and miles and for hours. Folks got out, grilled hotdogs, played
frisbee, tossed fottballs.
My friend's daughter ran on I-26 when fleeing Hurricane Fran a few
years ago. Again---traffic backed up for miles.
-==-=-=-
I bet she *can*!
-=-=-=-=-
I bet she *can*!
-=-=-=-=-
"Has to?"
-=-=-=-=-=-
-==-=-=-
"Has to?"
-=-=-=-=-
stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them these things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Most things they don't need to be "taught." They learn by *your* good
example.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think I've had to tell mine that.
We used to have a radio in the tub. It was pretty cool. Maybe we need
to get another!
-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-
Huh? Both of mine have driven my car. I was right there, but they
didn't necessarily have the "proper knowledge." They'd watched me drive
for years. They had never "practiced"---you mean like a pretend car? Or
bumper cars? Or go-carts? Duncan drove the minivan last year when he
was 11. Did pretty well too!
-=-=-=-=-=-
sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a
horribly changing world.
-=-=-=-=-
"Horribly" changing world? Why such a pessimistic view?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Coyote <janis@...>
>>>>>When we first heard of unschooling, the 'unparenting' part was abig worry. I
believe there are things that a child must know.
-=-=-=-=-
All children? Or just yours?
-==-=-==-
>>>>>How to cross the street.-=-=-=-=-=
Is there a certain way? Is it valid in all situations?
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>How to answer, or not answer the door,-=-=-=-=-
Again, is there protocol for this?
-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>how to answer the phone,-=-=-=-=-
I learned a certain way in second grade. Another from my mother. And
another while in Germany. I bet there are zillions of ways to answer a
phone.
-=-=-==-=-
>>>>>I have spoken to parentsthat think that unschooling, hence unparenting means letting the kids
smoke pot,
steal, hit each other....because they want to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What unschoolers? Where?
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>To me, unschooling has boundaries.-=-=--=-=-
For everyone?
For example?
-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>Brianna can't run into the freeway, forexample.
-=-=-=-
Cameron did. On the way to Bonaroo when traffic was stopped for miles
and miles and for hours. Folks got out, grilled hotdogs, played
frisbee, tossed fottballs.
My friend's daughter ran on I-26 when fleeing Hurricane Fran a few
years ago. Again---traffic backed up for miles.
-==-=-=-
>>>>>She can't walk outside naked,-=-=-=-=
I bet she *can*!
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>she can't steal,-=-=-=-=-
I bet she *can*!
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>she has to be responsible for managing her own money,-=-=-=-=-
"Has to?"
-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>she has to be responsible for her safetywhen she is out alone or with friends.
-==-=-=-
"Has to?"
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>There are many things that our kids need to know. Practical day -to - day
stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them these things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Most things they don't need to be "taught." They learn by *your* good
example.
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>>Do we not tell them not to take a bath with a radio?-=-=-=-=-
I don't think I've had to tell mine that.
We used to have a radio in the tub. It was pretty cool. Maybe we need
to get another!
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>Do we not stop them from driving a car with out the properknowledge & practice?
-=-=-=-=-
Huh? Both of mine have driven my car. I was right there, but they
didn't necessarily have the "proper knowledge." They'd watched me drive
for years. They had never "practiced"---you mean like a pretend car? Or
bumper cars? Or go-carts? Duncan drove the minivan last year when he
was 11. Did pretty well too!
-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>Unschooling doesn't mean not parenting. I think it means parentingwith common
sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a
horribly changing world.
-=-=-=-=-
"Horribly" changing world? Why such a pessimistic view?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Coyote
-----Original Message-----
From: Coyote <janis@...>
believe there are things that a child must know.
-=-=-=-=-
All children? Or just yours?
Is there a certain way? Is it valid in all situations?
Again, is there protocol for this?
I learned a certain way in second grade. Another from my mother. And
another while in Germany. I bet there are zillions of ways to answer a
phone.
smoke pot,
steal, hit each other....because they want to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What unschoolers? Where?
-=-=-=-=-
For everyone?
-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-
Cameron did. On the way to Bonaroo when traffic was stopped for miles
and miles and for hours. Folks got out, grilled hotdogs, played
frisbee, tossed fottballs.
My friend's daughter ran on I-26 when fleeing Hurricane Fran a few
years ago. Again---traffic backed up for miles.
I bet she *can*!
I bet she *can*!
"Has to?"
-==-=-=-
"Has to?"
stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them these things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Most things they don't need to be "taught." They learn by *your* good
example.
I don't think I've had to tell mine that.
We used to have a radio in the tub. It was pretty cool. Maybe we need
to get another!
-=-=-=-=-
Huh? Both of mine have driven my car. I was right there, but they
didn't necessarily have the "proper knowledge." They'd watched me drive
for years. They had never "practiced"---you mean like a pretend car? Or
bumper cars? Or go-carts? Duncan drove the minivan last year when he
was 11. Did pretty well too!
sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a
horribly changing world.
-=-=-=-=-
"Horribly" changing world? Why such a pessimistic view?
I'm not pessimistic. I'm informed and realistic.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Coyote <janis@...>
>>>>>When we first heard of unschooling, the 'unparenting' part was abig worry. I
believe there are things that a child must know.
-=-=-=-=-
All children? Or just yours?
>>>>>I think there are things in life that everyone should know. Everyone, as in all children & adults. Any situation that may probably be dangerous, if done incorrectly....as in crossing the street.-==-=-==-
>>>>>How to cross the street.-=-=-=-=-=
Is there a certain way? Is it valid in all situations?
>>>>There are different 'street crossing' situations. Would you let your child chase a ball onto a city street? Would you let your child cross with her/his eyes closed as a game? Would it be acceptable to cross 5th Ave against the light?-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>How to answer, or not answer the door,-=-=-=-=-
Again, is there protocol for this?
>>>>>If you are alone in the house with a 4 year old and you are in the shower and the doorbell rings, should your child answer it?-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>how to answer the phone,-=-=-=-=-
I learned a certain way in second grade. Another from my mother. And
another while in Germany. I bet there are zillions of ways to answer a
phone.
>>>>>Hello works for me. I've heard children answer the phone and babble or refuse to get the adult. Not everyone wants to speak to our kids. Is it appropriate for a 5 or 6 year old to answer and insist on speaking to the caller - when the caller may be someone calling in an emergency or professional capacity?-=-=-==-=-
>>>>>I have spoken to parentsthat think that unschooling, hence unparenting means letting the kids
smoke pot,
steal, hit each other....because they want to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
What unschoolers? Where?
>>>>>I'll name no names. I'd wager that we'll all met those that mistake unschooling for not paying attention, or taking the easy road. There are countless ways to 'teach'. A good way is to strive to be the kind of adult you'd like your child to be. I do not mean that I want my 15 y.o. to be like me. But, I can't expect her to have respect for herself if I have none for me. I can't expect her to stand for her beliefs if I don't.In our home, my 15 year old studies what she wants for as long as she wants the way she wants. She is a responsible, funny, creative, motivated, self respecting female. She has pets. She is, for the most part, responsible for them. I help. I pay for the food, etc, but she pays with her actions. She takes responsibility for certain chores. It's a partnership.
-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>To me, unschooling has boundaries.-=-=--=-=-
For everyone?
>>>>If your child is breaking the law, and you do not try as hard as you can to stop that behavior, that is a boundry that should not be crossed.For example?
-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>Brianna can't run into the freeway, forexample.
-=-=-=-
Cameron did. On the way to Bonaroo when traffic was stopped for miles
and miles and for hours. Folks got out, grilled hotdogs, played
frisbee, tossed fottballs.
My friend's daughter ran on I-26 when fleeing Hurricane Fran a few
years ago. Again---traffic backed up for miles.
>>>>>Can he run out into the freeway in 'normal' traffic? I played on 195 East during a blizzard. You know what I mean. Coming up with these extraordinary examples is beneath you.-==-=-=-
>>>>>She can't walk outside naked,=-=-=-=
I bet she *can*!
>>>>She 'can', but eventually one of the neighbors would report her to the police. Our city police are not friendly. Furthermore, can she walk into the city, into a store naked? Please don't bring up nudist colonies. We don't live in one.-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>she can't steal,-=-=-=-=-
I bet she *can*!
>>>She 'can' also set fire to a church, or a person, should I let her and call it unschooling? Should I let her take heroin or crystal meth into our home - if that were her choice? What of the legal ramifications? The health ramifications? As the adult, I would be held responsible in acourt of law and perhaps imprisoned. No thanks.-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>she has to be responsible for managing her own money,-=-=-=-=-
"Has to?"
>>>>>I'm not responsible for her money.. As a functioning adult, a budget is a good thing to have. She's learned to manage her money. I don't make her save or spend. She does it on her own. We are not wealthy. There is a limited amount of money. If she wants something that I can't afford, she has her savings - if it's that important to her.-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>she has to be responsible for her safetywhen she is out alone or with friends.
-==-=-=-
"Has to?"
>>>>Ever been raped?-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>There are many things that our kids need to know. Practical day -to - day
stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them these things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Most things they don't need to be "taught." They learn by *your* good
example.
>>>>>>I don't know eveything. I'm still growing, still learning.-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>>Do we not tell them not to take a bath with a radio?-=-=-=-=-
I don't think I've had to tell mine that.
We used to have a radio in the tub. It was pretty cool. Maybe we need
to get another!
>>>>>>>I won't even address this.-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>Do we not stop them from driving a car with out the properknowledge & practice?
-=-=-=-=-
Huh? Both of mine have driven my car. I was right there, but they
didn't necessarily have the "proper knowledge." They'd watched me drive
for years. They had never "practiced"---you mean like a pretend car? Or
bumper cars? Or go-carts? Duncan drove the minivan last year when he
was 11. Did pretty well too!
>>>>>You prove my point.-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>Unschooling doesn't mean not parenting. I think it means parentingwith common
sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a
horribly changing world.
-=-=-=-=-
"Horribly" changing world? Why such a pessimistic view?
>>>>>The earth is warming, there are food riots in parts of the world that will eventually happen here. Over population is a major problem. The floods in the midwest will cause food prices to rise sharply. Oil will continue to be a major addiction of ours and like all addictions, if we don't deal with it, it will deal with us. We have reached peak oil. Period. Our nation is horribly in debt and our children will pay for that. Think of how the world was 50 years ago. Picture it in 50 years.I think of my daughter at 60...45 years from now. According to many scientists, much of our Rhode Island seacoast will be gone, under water. This is the first generation that can not be gauranteed that they will 'do better'
I'm not pessimistic. I'm informed and realistic.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Therese
>>>I feel like we have to step in physically and remove him or takesaid toy away because he's hitting someone with it. We all feel
awful after a situation like this, but don't feel
> like there is an alternative. Any suggestions? This doesn'thappen often, but when it does it feels like we are damaging our
> relationship because everyone gets so upset and my son gets soangry at us for stopping him.
I am totally at this stage so I wanted to mention something here.
>>>Truly the only time we physically stop him or take a toy away iswhen he's hurting another child. >>
I don't see a problem with that.
>>> We are respectful in the beginning and say "hey bud, so and so'snot > o.k. with that, please stop" and sometimes he does and
sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes we suggest an alternative of what he
was doing, to do it on something else or somewhere else and sometimes
this works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we try to suggest
another game and that works sometimes and sometimes not.>>>
This sounds like a good start, but I would say they need to know that
hitting with an object is NOT okay. Don't sweet talk him when he
does this- but don't yell either. Tell him matter-of-factly.
>>.I usually just blurt out "hey stop bud, so and so's not likingthat game", which doesn't seem to help either.
> Any suggestions?>>Yes. I started to applying some Grace-based discipline in this
situation where I would; 1) get to their level, explain clearly what
they need to do and why, "I see your friend is getting hurt. Toys
are not for hurting people". You can also try to distract at this
point as well. 2) stay close- if its still happening, then I use this
verbage; "Can you stop yourself from hitting, or do you need mommy to
help you to stop?"
Usually that is all my kids need to stop, because they know what will
happen next- which is 3) - "I see you are having a hard time stopping
yourself from hitting, so I am going to help you now". And I pick
them up and sit them with me (not a time-out, but a time for them to
sit with me while I talk to them quietly, or just hold them until
they are calm). If they cry I just validate validate validate their
feelings; "You are upset" "You are really frustrated right now"
I try not to take the toy out of their hands. Usually sitting with me
gets old and they want to play again, and I let them get up if they
want to get up- but I will repeat the sequence if they are having a
hard time. Also- distracting with food, drink etc. I note if they
are tired and we may have to leave. Sometimes kids get overwhelmed
and need some quiet time from lots of children.
I use the 'Can you stop yourself from ___ or do you need help?' and
it usually helps the situation greatly. It may require some co-
ercian as far as taking them out of the situation, but I really try
to use it when the child is hurting someone and talking to them isn't
working. But try to remember that there is alwasy an underlying
reason for the behavior- find out what that is.
Therese
Therese
"But, I can't expect her to have respect for herself if I have none for
me. I can't expect her to stand for her beliefs if I don't. "
*Round of applause* [=D>]
And can I say I am loving this convo?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
me. I can't expect her to stand for her beliefs if I don't. "
*Round of applause* [=D>]
And can I say I am loving this convo?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 24, 2008, at 9:10 AM, Coyote wrote:
But rather than creating a long check list under the heading "Must
Know" box, it's more helpful for unschoolers to see that those are
all part of living life.
Rather than thinking in terms of "Here's what you must know," it's
more helpful for unschooling to trust they'll be learning as we help
them get what they want in safe and respectful ways. They'll be
learning from how we handle situations. They'll be learning as we
help them find better ways to handle a situation. Rather than
assuming we must specifically tell them everything, we trust that
they will be drawing conclusions (as well as absorbing specific
information) from how we live our lives and how we help them live
theirs.
help find ways to keep them safe with suggestions, actions, words,
jokes. They will build up a repertoire of ways to stay safe not just
crossing streets but that apply to other situations too.
view it is that everything we choose to do entails risks. As we live
life with our kids, we'll talk about what could happen and help them
find solutions that minimize risk (keep them safe and don't harm
others), we'll stand back when the risk seems something they'd be
willing to put up with to allow them to explore the consequences,
we'll point out something they may be missing (and keep quiet when
they're willing to take the risk), we'll help them clean up the
consequences of their trials, we may help them reassess or trust
they're reassessing (depends on the child and on the situation).
It will never be one lesson for one situation. It will be many
different encounters with similar situations where we helped them
get what they wanted safely and respectfully. It will be applying
what they figured out in other situations to totally different
situations.
This is how humans naturally learn. It's very unnatural to learn by
memorizing rules to situations! It's very natural to pick up an
understanding of how the world works by watching and doing and
thinking about what happened and why it happened and how to avoid
the bad parts.
A child will slowly build a picture of how the world works just by
living and being with attentive, aware parents who talk about
anything and everything. Children will come to understand that
everything they do comes with a risk. Just getting out of bed carries
a risk! As part of growing up, we'll be helping them think about
problems and ways to solve them safely and respectfully.
Rather than saying "These are the things you can't do," it's more
useful for the child to get loads of practice solving problems in a
safe environment with aware parents they know are there to help them.
wouldn't want to.
This is a good example where people's thinking gets stuck when trying
to understand unschooling and mindful parenting. When a child wants
something:
1) The child doesn't always understand the consequences.
2) The child always has other goals they're trying to achieve at the
same time
3) The child doesn't necessarily want exactly what they're trying to
do or asking for.
A child may want to run into the street but they *also* want to not
get hurt.
A child may want a toy another child has but they *also* want to get
along in society.
Basically the child's goal is to explore the world safely and
respectfully. They just don't have the skills. Our role is to help
them find ways to do what they want to do safely and respectfully.
A child who runs toward the road needs to not be put in situations
where there are roads to run towards. If there are times they need to
be near a road, we need to be right by their side. We can also help
them explore roads (like quiet streets) until they've gotten as much
as they need. (It won't take long! Streets really aren't that
interesting ;-) If they're interested it's probably because they've
heard "No, you can't!" ;-) We should also respond to heading for the
street (or anything dangerous) with *better* ideas, something that's
more fun.
We'll also be telling them, in terms appropriate to their age, why
that isn't safe. "Cars could hit you," for example. Older kids can
get more detailed explanations but the explanations *shouldn't* be
seen as ways to remotely control the kids. They're *information* to
help kids make better (safer, more respectful) decisions. But it's up
to us to keep them safe.
But what does the child really want? How can she be helped to do it
safely and respectfully?
If this were a real child with a penchant for running outside naked
every chance she got, I'm sure there would be lots of ideas from
people on the list thrown out involving both principles and how other
practically implemented them.
In some communities it might be perfectly acceptable to be 2 and
naked. There might be creepy neighbors. There might be a screened
backyard. There aren't hard and fast rules.
Where people get confused is this doesn't need to be "A Lesson in
Consequences for a Lifetime." In many instances it's more helpful to
deal with kids where they are now rather than thinking into the far
distant future. A 2 yo running out naked isn't the same as a 12
yo ;-) They don't need treated the same. But the 12 yo shouldn't have
been running out at 11 naked or at 8 naked. By that time they should
have been through with mom a lot of other options that are safe and
respectful.
And a 2 yo isn't running outside naked for the same reasons a 12 yo
might. In fact probably the most likely reason a 12 yo would want to
walk out naked (assuming they haven't been raised in a nudist colony
and just forgot they aren't any more ;-) is because they heard "No,
you can't" to everything they tried to do.
If kids grow up in an atmosphere of "Let's figure out how to do that
safely and respectfully," and "Let's find something even better," she
doesn't even need to hear "You can't walk outside naked."
If a child is growing up in a home where their being helped to find
ways to get what they want in ways that are safe and respectful, the
will have concluded that it isn't nice to steal.
Specifically they will have probably heard "We need to pay for that
first. It doesn't belong to us. It belongs to the store." "I will
almost always say yes, but I'd appreciate it if you'd ask before you use
It's really doubtful we'll ever need to tell a child they can't
steal. I don't think I've ever told my daughter! But, as we help them
be respectful of others as they try to get what they want in life,
they will naturally draw the conclusion that taking something that
doesn't belong to you is hurtful and disrepectful.
It needn't be a single lesson. It's just a natural conclusion of
living life respectfully.
picked up to make life easier.
Our kids' responsibility is to do what makes *their* life happier. If
we've raised them in an atmosphere of being safe and respectful, we
have to trust them once they leave home.
thinking of all the rules they need to teach their kids to keep
themselves safe.
We raise them in an atmosphere of solving problems while keeping safe
and being respectful, then they will use that skill when faced with
novel situations.
Teaching isn't the only way kids get information into them.
Passing on information isn't teaching. It's polite!
I'd be darn ticked off if my husband saw me doing something and knew
it was dangerous but let me do it anyway!
We don't need to tell them specifically not to take a bath with a
radio (though if we see them headed that direction, of course speak
up!) But, it's more likely, in the course of living life, we will
have mentioned in several contexts that electricity and water don't
play nice and talked about why. So they will then be able to easily
draw the conclusion not to take a radio or hairdryer into the bath.
*But*, since they weren't handed just a rule of "Never take a radio
into the bath", when they see an ad for a shower radio, they'll also
be able to conclude the manufacturers have taken special precautions
to overcome the limitations of electricity and water. (They will
*also* have picked up through various experiences in their lives that
manufacturers are in the business of making money and that it's
always a good idea to read the fine print. (A fun example that makes
that point is the last page of Consumer Reports!))
all on their own.
And I think it helps us live more joyful lives to make a concerted
effort to see the progress we've made in society to counter the
negatives that are still there and any new ones that get added.
When society becomes more the way we expect it should be -- treating
others with respect, for example -- it's hard to imagine how life
felt when it wasn't that way. All someone needs as a reminder is to
read a couple of Nancy Drews from the 30's or the Bobsey Twins to
see how acceptable it was to have the few black characters be lazy
and shiftless and drunk and stupid. That was mainstream (white)
America, not pockets of ignorance.
It's hard to call up what it felt like to be a woman who wanted a
challenging job but was faced with a huge horde of messages from
family, friends, strangers, universities, employers, books,
magazines ... that had nothing supportive to say to her idea.
While unions might be seen by some as the bane of American industry,
without the understanding that employers held all the power at the
turn of the previous century and could fire someone for not jumping
when they said jump, it's hard to see the tremendous amount good
they've done.
While people may deride modern medicine, and look back to simpler
times, it wasn't very long ago that families *expected* that not all
of their kids would live to adulthood. Without the advances in
medicine we wouldn't have the luxury of seeing the advantages of
simpler methods.
Without seeing a *true* picture of where we used to be -- rather than
the fantasized images of simpler times that lots of people end up
holding -- it makes it difficult to appreciate how far we've come.
Yes, there are new bad things cropping up. Yes, we've got lots
further to go. (I suspect unschooling mindful parents see that
*very* clearly! Just a visit to Walmart at Christmas time to view how
mainstream parents treat their kids can send a hopeful person into
despair that things will ever improve!) But I see a lot of hope in
the people here and in the kids they're raising. Without the examples
of a different way, things can't improve.
Joyce
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I believe there are things that a child must know. How to cross theI agree, those are all useful things to know.
> street. How to answer, or not answer the door, how to answer the
> phone, how to be courteous to others, how to respect others space,
> property and time.
But rather than creating a long check list under the heading "Must
Know" box, it's more helpful for unschoolers to see that those are
all part of living life.
Rather than thinking in terms of "Here's what you must know," it's
more helpful for unschooling to trust they'll be learning as we help
them get what they want in safe and respectful ways. They'll be
learning from how we handle situations. They'll be learning as we
help them find better ways to handle a situation. Rather than
assuming we must specifically tell them everything, we trust that
they will be drawing conclusions (as well as absorbing specific
information) from how we live our lives and how we help them live
theirs.
> How to cross the streetThere isn't one way. But when we encounter a street we will naturally
help find ways to keep them safe with suggestions, actions, words,
jokes. They will build up a repertoire of ways to stay safe not just
crossing streets but that apply to other situations too.
> I have spoken to parents that think that unschooling, henceUnschooling shouldn't be "hence unparenting." The two aren't related.
> unparenting means letting the kids smoke pot, steal, hit each
> other....because they want to.
> To me, unschooling has boundaries.I was going to say "Life has boundaries," but an even better way to
view it is that everything we choose to do entails risks. As we live
life with our kids, we'll talk about what could happen and help them
find solutions that minimize risk (keep them safe and don't harm
others), we'll stand back when the risk seems something they'd be
willing to put up with to allow them to explore the consequences,
we'll point out something they may be missing (and keep quiet when
they're willing to take the risk), we'll help them clean up the
consequences of their trials, we may help them reassess or trust
they're reassessing (depends on the child and on the situation).
It will never be one lesson for one situation. It will be many
different encounters with similar situations where we helped them
get what they wanted safely and respectfully. It will be applying
what they figured out in other situations to totally different
situations.
This is how humans naturally learn. It's very unnatural to learn by
memorizing rules to situations! It's very natural to pick up an
understanding of how the world works by watching and doing and
thinking about what happened and why it happened and how to avoid
the bad parts.
A child will slowly build a picture of how the world works just by
living and being with attentive, aware parents who talk about
anything and everything. Children will come to understand that
everything they do comes with a risk. Just getting out of bed carries
a risk! As part of growing up, we'll be helping them think about
problems and ways to solve them safely and respectfully.
Rather than saying "These are the things you can't do," it's more
useful for the child to get loads of practice solving problems in a
safe environment with aware parents they know are there to help them.
> Brianna can't run into the freeway, for example.Yes, she can, but if she understood the consequences she probably
wouldn't want to.
This is a good example where people's thinking gets stuck when trying
to understand unschooling and mindful parenting. When a child wants
something:
1) The child doesn't always understand the consequences.
2) The child always has other goals they're trying to achieve at the
same time
3) The child doesn't necessarily want exactly what they're trying to
do or asking for.
A child may want to run into the street but they *also* want to not
get hurt.
A child may want a toy another child has but they *also* want to get
along in society.
Basically the child's goal is to explore the world safely and
respectfully. They just don't have the skills. Our role is to help
them find ways to do what they want to do safely and respectfully.
A child who runs toward the road needs to not be put in situations
where there are roads to run towards. If there are times they need to
be near a road, we need to be right by their side. We can also help
them explore roads (like quiet streets) until they've gotten as much
as they need. (It won't take long! Streets really aren't that
interesting ;-) If they're interested it's probably because they've
heard "No, you can't!" ;-) We should also respond to heading for the
street (or anything dangerous) with *better* ideas, something that's
more fun.
We'll also be telling them, in terms appropriate to their age, why
that isn't safe. "Cars could hit you," for example. Older kids can
get more detailed explanations but the explanations *shouldn't* be
seen as ways to remotely control the kids. They're *information* to
help kids make better (safer, more respectful) decisions. But it's up
to us to keep them safe.
> She can't walk outside naked,Sure she can.
But what does the child really want? How can she be helped to do it
safely and respectfully?
If this were a real child with a penchant for running outside naked
every chance she got, I'm sure there would be lots of ideas from
people on the list thrown out involving both principles and how other
practically implemented them.
In some communities it might be perfectly acceptable to be 2 and
naked. There might be creepy neighbors. There might be a screened
backyard. There aren't hard and fast rules.
Where people get confused is this doesn't need to be "A Lesson in
Consequences for a Lifetime." In many instances it's more helpful to
deal with kids where they are now rather than thinking into the far
distant future. A 2 yo running out naked isn't the same as a 12
yo ;-) They don't need treated the same. But the 12 yo shouldn't have
been running out at 11 naked or at 8 naked. By that time they should
have been through with mom a lot of other options that are safe and
respectful.
And a 2 yo isn't running outside naked for the same reasons a 12 yo
might. In fact probably the most likely reason a 12 yo would want to
walk out naked (assuming they haven't been raised in a nudist colony
and just forgot they aren't any more ;-) is because they heard "No,
you can't" to everything they tried to do.
If kids grow up in an atmosphere of "Let's figure out how to do that
safely and respectfully," and "Let's find something even better," she
doesn't even need to hear "You can't walk outside naked."
> she can't steal,That she can do too.
If a child is growing up in a home where their being helped to find
ways to get what they want in ways that are safe and respectful, the
will have concluded that it isn't nice to steal.
Specifically they will have probably heard "We need to pay for that
first. It doesn't belong to us. It belongs to the store." "I will
almost always say yes, but I'd appreciate it if you'd ask before you use
It's really doubtful we'll ever need to tell a child they can't
steal. I don't think I've ever told my daughter! But, as we help them
be respectful of others as they try to get what they want in life,
they will naturally draw the conclusion that taking something that
doesn't belong to you is hurtful and disrepectful.
It needn't be a single lesson. It's just a natural conclusion of
living life respectfully.
> she has to be responsible for managing her own money,I think it's very helpful for parents to pass on the tricks they've
picked up to make life easier.
Our kids' responsibility is to do what makes *their* life happier. If
we've raised them in an atmosphere of being safe and respectful, we
have to trust them once they leave home.
> she has to be responsible for her safety when she is out alone orWell, yes .... but that's a tall order and will trap parenting into
> with friends.
thinking of all the rules they need to teach their kids to keep
themselves safe.
We raise them in an atmosphere of solving problems while keeping safe
and being respectful, then they will use that skill when faced with
novel situations.
> There are many things that our kids need to know. Practical day -Again, this is where people trying to get unschooling get confused.
> to - day stuff. We would be highly remiss in not teaching them
> these things.
> Do we not tell them not to take a bath with a radio?
> Do we not stop them from driving a car with out the proper
> knowledge & practice?
Teaching isn't the only way kids get information into them.
Passing on information isn't teaching. It's polite!
I'd be darn ticked off if my husband saw me doing something and knew
it was dangerous but let me do it anyway!
We don't need to tell them specifically not to take a bath with a
radio (though if we see them headed that direction, of course speak
up!) But, it's more likely, in the course of living life, we will
have mentioned in several contexts that electricity and water don't
play nice and talked about why. So they will then be able to easily
draw the conclusion not to take a radio or hairdryer into the bath.
*But*, since they weren't handed just a rule of "Never take a radio
into the bath", when they see an ad for a shower radio, they'll also
be able to conclude the manufacturers have taken special precautions
to overcome the limitations of electricity and water. (They will
*also* have picked up through various experiences in their lives that
manufacturers are in the business of making money and that it's
always a good idea to read the fine print. (A fun example that makes
that point is the last page of Consumer Reports!))
> Unschooling doesn't mean not parenting. I think it means parentingNo one should be assuming unschooling means let them figure out life
> with common sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and
> survive in a horribly changing world.
all on their own.
And I think it helps us live more joyful lives to make a concerted
effort to see the progress we've made in society to counter the
negatives that are still there and any new ones that get added.
When society becomes more the way we expect it should be -- treating
others with respect, for example -- it's hard to imagine how life
felt when it wasn't that way. All someone needs as a reminder is to
read a couple of Nancy Drews from the 30's or the Bobsey Twins to
see how acceptable it was to have the few black characters be lazy
and shiftless and drunk and stupid. That was mainstream (white)
America, not pockets of ignorance.
It's hard to call up what it felt like to be a woman who wanted a
challenging job but was faced with a huge horde of messages from
family, friends, strangers, universities, employers, books,
magazines ... that had nothing supportive to say to her idea.
While unions might be seen by some as the bane of American industry,
without the understanding that employers held all the power at the
turn of the previous century and could fire someone for not jumping
when they said jump, it's hard to see the tremendous amount good
they've done.
While people may deride modern medicine, and look back to simpler
times, it wasn't very long ago that families *expected* that not all
of their kids would live to adulthood. Without the advances in
medicine we wouldn't have the luxury of seeing the advantages of
simpler methods.
Without seeing a *true* picture of where we used to be -- rather than
the fantasized images of simpler times that lots of people end up
holding -- it makes it difficult to appreciate how far we've come.
Yes, there are new bad things cropping up. Yes, we've got lots
further to go. (I suspect unschooling mindful parents see that
*very* clearly! Just a visit to Walmart at Christmas time to view how
mainstream parents treat their kids can send a hopeful person into
despair that things will ever improve!) But I see a lot of hope in
the people here and in the kids they're raising. Without the examples
of a different way, things can't improve.
Joyce
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
Informed and realistic? Or a product of all the fear mongering
politicians?
I consider myself realistic and informed, so I know that the warmest
year on record was 1998. 10 years ago. I consider myself informed
and realistic, and I believe that global warming is
1. Natural
2. Over
3. Has happened before and Rhode Island didn't sink.
This doesn't make me right. I'm saying this to make a point. NOT to
start a discussion on global warming.
We can't live our lives in fear of all the terrible things that MIGHT
happen. There's been an awful lot of "prophecies" that have not come
true. And we certainly shouldn't be raising our children in fear.
For every study that says "there is" there is another study that says
"there isn't"
***
"This is the first generation that can not be gauranteed that they
will 'do better'"
***
I also happen to think that, that statement is a matter of opinion.
politicians?
I consider myself realistic and informed, so I know that the warmest
year on record was 1998. 10 years ago. I consider myself informed
and realistic, and I believe that global warming is
1. Natural
2. Over
3. Has happened before and Rhode Island didn't sink.
This doesn't make me right. I'm saying this to make a point. NOT to
start a discussion on global warming.
We can't live our lives in fear of all the terrible things that MIGHT
happen. There's been an awful lot of "prophecies" that have not come
true. And we certainly shouldn't be raising our children in fear.
For every study that says "there is" there is another study that says
"there isn't"
***
"This is the first generation that can not be gauranteed that they
will 'do better'"
***
I also happen to think that, that statement is a matter of opinion.
--- In [email protected], "Coyote" <janis@...> wrote:
> >>>>>The earth is warming, there are food riots in parts of the
world that will eventually happen here. Over population is a major
problem. The floods in the midwest will cause food prices to rise
sharply. Oil will continue to be a major addiction of ours and like
all addictions, if we don't deal with it, it will deal with us. We
have reached peak oil. Period. Our nation is horribly in debt and our
children will pay for that. Think of how the world was 50 years ago.
Picture it in 50 years.
>
> I think of my daughter at 60...45 years from now. According to
many scientists, much of our Rhode Island seacoast will be gone, under
water. This is the first generation that can not be gauranteed that
they will 'do better'
>
> I'm not pessimistic. I'm informed and realistic.
Faith Void
>>>>>>How to cross the street.If a ball rolls into the street my child will ask me to get it for him
>
> -=-=-=-=-=
>
> Is there a certain way? Is it valid in all situations?
>
>>>>>There are different 'street crossing' situations. Would you let your
>>>>> child chase a ball onto a city street? Would you let your child cross with
>>>>> her/his eyes closed as a game? Would it be acceptable to cross 5th Ave
>>>>> against the light?
(5) or retrieve it safely herself (11). There is no "allowing".
If me child wanted to cross with eyes closed as a game I would look
for solutions to make that happen. I could hold his/her hand. I could
walk closely beside them. If I had a blind child I would certainly
help them find a way to safely cross a street. The same with a sighted
child.
I don't see the world like that "acceptable". I have no idea what 5th
Ave is. However both me and my children have crossed various streets
in various cities and towns in America. We take into consideration
what is safe. I use words and my actions to show them when they are
little.
>Well, we must live in a different situation because there is not issue
> -=-=-=-=-
>
>>>>>>How to answer, or not answer the door,
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Again, is there protocol for this?
>>>>>>If you are alone in the house with a 4 year old and you are in the
>>>>>> shower and the doorbell rings, should your child answer it?
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
to a little person answering the door here. When we lived in the city
I did ask my kids to ignore the door when I was out if it was someone
they didn't know. If they were too young to understand then I probably
would have keep them closer to me, ie in the bathroom or at least the
top floor.
>>>>>>how to answer the phone,If people don't want to talk to kids that is their issue not mine. I
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I learned a certain way in second grade. Another from my mother. And
> another while in Germany. I bet there are zillions of ways to answer a
> phone.
>
>>>>>>Hello works for me. I've heard children answer the phone and babble or
>>>>>> refuse to get the adult. Not everyone wants to speak to our kids. Is it
>>>>>> appropriate for a 5 or 6 year old to answer and insist on speaking to the
>>>>>> caller - when the caller may be someone calling in an emergency or
>>>>>> professional capacity?
am my children's mother not theirs. I am not going to limit my
children on the off chance that some stranger might feel uncomfortable
calling our home. This isn't even a very real scenario.
A 5 or 6 year old that is treated respectfully will probably be able
to tell if someone wants to talk to them or not. Also a child that age
can hear panic or would understand an emergency. Also the word
appropriate is disconcerting to me. I am curious what you mean when
you write that.
>I don't teach. I live my life side by side with my kids we make
> -=-=-==-=-
>
>>>>>>I have spoken to parents
> that think that unschooling, hence unparenting means letting the kids
> smoke pot,
> steal, hit each other....because they want to.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> What unschoolers? Where?
>
>>>>>>I'll name no names. I'd wager that we'll all met those that mistake
>>>>>> unschooling for not paying attention, or taking the easy road. There are
>>>>>> countless ways to 'teach'. A good way is to strive to be the kind of adult
>>>>>> you'd like your child to be. I do not mean that I want my 15 y.o. to be like
>>>>>> me. But, I can't expect her to have respect for herself if I have none for
>>>>>> me. I can't expect her to stand for her beliefs if I don't.
mistakes and together we learn from them. I agree with the end
statement. One must respect yourself before others will.
>In our home we are all responsible to ourselves and each other. But as
> In our home, my 15 year old studies what she wants for as long as she wants
> the way she wants. She is a responsible, funny, creative, motivated, self
> respecting female. She has pets. She is, for the most part, responsible for
> them. I help. I pay for the food, etc, but she pays with her actions. She
> takes responsibility for certain chores. It's a partnership.
>
the adult I take responsibility for the chores. My kids will help if I
need them to and there are several things they do regularly.
> -=-=-=-=-For us it is limitless. I try to have unlimited creativity.
>
>>>>>>To me, unschooling has boundaries.
>
>>>>>If your child is breaking the law, and you do not try as hard as you canI don't understand what you might be talking about. I would partner
>>>>> to stop that behavior, that is a boundry that should not be crossed.
>
> For example?
with my child in any endevour they would want to take on, legal or
not. If it was illegal I would probably try to find a more leagl
solution that worked for everyone My dd wanted to spary paint when she
was 6~after seeing graffiti. I bought her spray paint and took her
somewhere she could spray away without legal repercussions.
>My children are capable of it. I doubt they have any inclination. I
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
>>>>>>Brianna can't run into the freeway, for
> example.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Cameron did. On the way to Bonaroo when traffic was stopped for miles
> and miles and for hours. Folks got out, grilled hotdogs, played
> frisbee, tossed fottballs.
>
> My friend's daughter ran on I-26 when fleeing Hurricane Fran a few
> years ago. Again---traffic backed up for miles.
>
>>>>>>Can he run out into the freeway in 'normal' traffic? I played on 195
>>>>>> East during a blizzard. You know what I mean. Coming up with these
>>>>>> extraordinary examples is beneath you.
thought Kelly made good points. I am confident through partnering with
them we could find a solution. That isn't unparenting that takes a lot
of patience and creativity.
> -==-=-=-So are you saying if she was inclined to be naked you would refuse to
>
>>>>>>She can't walk outside naked,
>
> =-=-=-=
>
> I bet she *can*!
>
>>>>>She 'can', but eventually one of the neighbors would report her to the
>>>>> police. Our city police are not friendly. Furthermore, can she walk into the
>>>>> city, into a store naked? Please don't bring up nudist colonies. We don't
>>>>> live in one.
allow her istead of looking for a solution?
> -=-=-=-=-unschooling isn't about allowing your children lisence to hurt other
>
>>>>>>she can't steal,
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I bet she *can*!
>
>>>>She 'can' also set fire to a church, or a person, should I let her and
>>>> call it unschooling? Should I let her take heroin or crystal meth into our
>>>> home - if that were her choice? What of the legal ramifications? The health
>>>> ramifications? As the adult, I would be held responsible in acourt of law
>>>> and perhaps imprisoned. No thanks.
people or others property. it is about finding solutions that work for
everyone. It is about not limited but finding a way. I am not the most
elegant of speaker but I don't think anyone on here would want their
kid to hurt others indiscriminately. From what I have learned and seen
unschoolers partner with their children to find possibilities where
others place limits and rules.
> -=-=-=-=-I think it is your language that is stopping you from hearing what
>
>>>>>>she has to be responsible for managing her own money,
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> "Has to?"
>
>>>>>>I'm not responsible for her money.. As a functioning adult, a budget is
>>>>>> a good thing to have. She's learned to manage her money. I don't make her
>>>>>> save or spend. She does it on her own. We are not wealthy. There is a
>>>>>> limited amount of money. If she wants something that I can't afford, she has
>>>>>> her savings - if it's that important to her.
>
people are saying.
> -=-=-=-=-=-So are women that are raped irresponsible? I am sure that my daughter
>
>>>>>she has to be responsible for her safety
> when she is out alone or with friends.
>
> -==-=-=-
>
> "Has to?"
>
>>>>>Ever been raped?
>
chooses to be as safe as possible and tries to make choices that keep
her healthy and keep her safe. Sometimes she makes desions that I
wouldn't, sometimes they work other times not as well. But they are
learning experiences. I want her to learn these things and amek
mistakes while I am here to help her , catch her if she falls. I can't
stop "bad" thins from happening to her, I can only help to keep her
strong and resilient, able to make it through what life offers.
> -=-=-=-=--
>How do you get experience? If you need experience before you drive, I
>>>>>>Do we not stop them from driving a car with out the proper
> knowledge & practice?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
don't get it.
>>>>>>Unschooling doesn't mean not parenting. I think it means parentingwow!
> with common
> sense and a sense of enabling our kids to adapt and survive in a
> horribly changing world.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> "Horribly" changing world? Why such a pessimistic view?
>
>>>>>>The earth is warming, there are food riots in parts of the world that
>>>>>> will eventually happen here. Over population is a major problem. The floods
>>>>>> in the midwest will cause food prices to rise sharply. Oil will continue to
>>>>>> be a major addiction of ours and like all addictions, if we don't deal with
>>>>>> it, it will deal with us. We have reached peak oil. Period. Our nation is
>>>>>> horribly in debt and our children will pay for that. Think of how the world
>>>>>> was 50 years ago. Picture it in 50 years.
>
> I think of my daughter at 60...45 years from now. According to many
> scientists, much of our Rhode Island seacoast will be gone, under water.
> This is the first generation that can not be gauranteed that they will 'do
> better'
>
> I'm not pessimistic. I'm informed and realistic.
That is heavy stuff to unload on a kid. I am feeling the weight of
your thoughts. It is a sucky way to live. I will choose to be more
optimistic and help do my part to make sure the world turns out better
than that! I want my kids to see possibilities and opportunities to
make the world shine bright for all humans. I don't think loading them
down with a sad world view will help them.
Also, I concede that I can not tell the future so I can only hope and dream
Faith
--
www.bearthmama.com
Ren Allen
~~>>>>The earth is warming, there are food riots in parts of the
world that will eventually happen here. Over population is a major
problem. The floods in the midwest will cause food prices to rise
sharply. Oil will continue to be a major addiction of ours and like
all addictions, if we don't deal with it, it will deal with us. We
have reached peak oil. Period. Our nation is horribly in debt and our
children will pay for that. Think of how the world was 50 years ago.
Picture it in 50 years.~~
I actually agree with all of the above. I believe the same things will
happen....faster than most believe possible. Yet I don't choose to
drop my doom and gloom all over the place and focus on what is
probably an inevitable blip in history. I like to think of myself as a
cynical optimist.:)
Those ideas and principles I hold, do not overshadow the choices I
make with my family.
As to the vegetarian issue that was brought up:
~Just last week, I cooked a *steak* for Seth, because he asked for
one. ewww. Evan was grossed out by it, even though he'll eat burgers.
Seth didn't see my "ewww" face as I got it out and cooked it - what he
saw was me, listening to him and taking his needs and wants seriously.~~
I think Caren nailed the entire point right here. Her child's needs
and desires aren't trumped by her own principles. More strong than any
other belief I have, is the belief that each and every person needs to
learn in their own way, in their own time, whatever it is they choose.
That includes food choices. If MY choice to eat vegetarian most of the
time (I choose seafood on occasion now) was more important than my
child's desires, then yeah, I'd just say no. But it isn't. My children
should have the right to choose what they want to eat and what kind of
principles THEY want to live by.
I think the people that believe modeling is to ensure your child
"turn's out" a certain way are deluding themselves. Your child was
born with their own inner wiring that will dictate many choices
outside of your modeling and views. I truly hope my children will
analyze the way they were raised, analyze what their parents believe
enough to come up with their OWN ideas and rationale for what they do.
I don't want them to blindly follow what was modeled here. That isn't
thinking.
I have very strong beliefs about global warming and food supply and
sustainability (teawithren.blogspot.com)....I move forward with my
goal to live more sustainably right here in suburbia. My children see
that, they know it. They shouldn't have to agree with it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
world that will eventually happen here. Over population is a major
problem. The floods in the midwest will cause food prices to rise
sharply. Oil will continue to be a major addiction of ours and like
all addictions, if we don't deal with it, it will deal with us. We
have reached peak oil. Period. Our nation is horribly in debt and our
children will pay for that. Think of how the world was 50 years ago.
Picture it in 50 years.~~
I actually agree with all of the above. I believe the same things will
happen....faster than most believe possible. Yet I don't choose to
drop my doom and gloom all over the place and focus on what is
probably an inevitable blip in history. I like to think of myself as a
cynical optimist.:)
Those ideas and principles I hold, do not overshadow the choices I
make with my family.
As to the vegetarian issue that was brought up:
~Just last week, I cooked a *steak* for Seth, because he asked for
one. ewww. Evan was grossed out by it, even though he'll eat burgers.
Seth didn't see my "ewww" face as I got it out and cooked it - what he
saw was me, listening to him and taking his needs and wants seriously.~~
I think Caren nailed the entire point right here. Her child's needs
and desires aren't trumped by her own principles. More strong than any
other belief I have, is the belief that each and every person needs to
learn in their own way, in their own time, whatever it is they choose.
That includes food choices. If MY choice to eat vegetarian most of the
time (I choose seafood on occasion now) was more important than my
child's desires, then yeah, I'd just say no. But it isn't. My children
should have the right to choose what they want to eat and what kind of
principles THEY want to live by.
I think the people that believe modeling is to ensure your child
"turn's out" a certain way are deluding themselves. Your child was
born with their own inner wiring that will dictate many choices
outside of your modeling and views. I truly hope my children will
analyze the way they were raised, analyze what their parents believe
enough to come up with their OWN ideas and rationale for what they do.
I don't want them to blindly follow what was modeled here. That isn't
thinking.
I have very strong beliefs about global warming and food supply and
sustainability (teawithren.blogspot.com)....I move forward with my
goal to live more sustainably right here in suburbia. My children see
that, they know it. They shouldn't have to agree with it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 24, 2008, at 10:14 PM, Coyote wrote:
one, growing up during the cold war when the US had nuclear missiles
pointed at the USSR and vice versa, and a finger hovered over the
buttons nuclear annihilation felt like the safer bet than peace. (In
grade school, in addition to fire drills, we had air raid drills
where we'd line up in the halls facing the wall. I suspect it would
have saved us from nothing.) Those are just quaint words of ancient
times to anyone born after the mid 1980s. It was my reality.
And those who spent those years focusing on the doom of the future?
What did they gain from years of pessimism? Time spent being
depressed, basically.
I don't think people should bury their heads in the sand (unless they
want to!) but I think that *if* being informed doesn't help someone
feel empowered to make changes, *if* being informed causes them to
feel the world can't be saved, they owe it to their child to set
aside being informed until the children are grown and out of the house.
make the period from now until then unpleasant.
There's nothing we can do about death either but it doesn't make
sense to spend life dwelling on the inevitable end. It makes more
sense to make the best life one can possibly make since we only get
one chance.
If your daughter has no future, then make the present the best
present you can make for her. It will fill her up with happy memories
that will sustain her way longer than living through a childhood of
certainty that she has no future.
*If* there's something you feel empowered to do, then do it. If
you're already doing something, invite people on the list to join.
Dwelling on what someone *feels* they can't change doesn't help
anyone and only makes them and those around them miserable. The
beliefs of negative people are pretty much self fulfilling! If
someone believes nothing can be done, they won't do anything. And
instead of finding a way to enjoy the time before the change, they
spend the time miserable.
annihilation felt the same way. But spreading around those visions of
a dark future just depressed people. They could have used the energy
spent spreading a gloomy future and bearing the weight on their
shoulders into doing something positive.
Joyce
> This is the first generation that can not be gauranteed that theyNot even close, which is why understanding history is important. For
> will 'do better'
one, growing up during the cold war when the US had nuclear missiles
pointed at the USSR and vice versa, and a finger hovered over the
buttons nuclear annihilation felt like the safer bet than peace. (In
grade school, in addition to fire drills, we had air raid drills
where we'd line up in the halls facing the wall. I suspect it would
have saved us from nothing.) Those are just quaint words of ancient
times to anyone born after the mid 1980s. It was my reality.
And those who spent those years focusing on the doom of the future?
What did they gain from years of pessimism? Time spent being
depressed, basically.
I don't think people should bury their heads in the sand (unless they
want to!) but I think that *if* being informed doesn't help someone
feel empowered to make changes, *if* being informed causes them to
feel the world can't be saved, they owe it to their child to set
aside being informed until the children are grown and out of the house.
> The earth is warming, there are food riots in parts of the world*If* there's nothing we can do about it, dwelling on it will only
> that will eventually happen here. Over population is a major
> problem. The floods in the midwest will cause food prices to rise
> sharply. Oil will continue to be a major addiction of ours and like
> all addictions, if we don't deal with it, it will deal with us. We
> have reached peak oil. Period. Our nation is horribly in debt and
> our children will pay for that. Think of how the world was 50 years
> ago. Picture it in 50 years.
>
> I think of my daughter at 60...45 years from now. According to many
> scientists, much of our Rhode Island seacoast will be gone, under
> water.
make the period from now until then unpleasant.
There's nothing we can do about death either but it doesn't make
sense to spend life dwelling on the inevitable end. It makes more
sense to make the best life one can possibly make since we only get
one chance.
If your daughter has no future, then make the present the best
present you can make for her. It will fill her up with happy memories
that will sustain her way longer than living through a childhood of
certainty that she has no future.
*If* there's something you feel empowered to do, then do it. If
you're already doing something, invite people on the list to join.
Dwelling on what someone *feels* they can't change doesn't help
anyone and only makes them and those around them miserable. The
beliefs of negative people are pretty much self fulfilling! If
someone believes nothing can be done, they won't do anything. And
instead of finding a way to enjoy the time before the change, they
spend the time miserable.
>And the people who thought we were all going to die in nuclear
> I'm not pessimistic. I'm informed and realistic.
annihilation felt the same way. But spreading around those visions of
a dark future just depressed people. They could have used the energy
spent spreading a gloomy future and bearing the weight on their
shoulders into doing something positive.
Joyce
Melissa Gray
On Jun 24, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
was to reassess where they were. A childhood of mainstream parenting
(bordering on neglect and abuse) left me with really unrealistic
boundaries. I definitely believed that adults had the right of way,
regardless of the topic. Once I saw that my boundaries, my
expectations were unrealistic, I could move them (slowly and
painfully, sometimes) Sometimes that goes for other people's
boundaries as well, if I need to advocate for my child, and help
someone realize that their boundaries are arbitrary or unfair.
For an individual child whose choices are not okay with someone else,
it may mean respecting them enough to realize that they just can't
handle a situation yet. A child who lashes out at the park needs a
LOT more help at the park than a child who can deal, so I respect
that by either staying with them, or visiting the park when it's not
a busy, or at night, or finding another park that is not as full.
Seeing an individuals needs helps to address them. I have a child
who's really sensitive to what people say. Seemingly innocuous
statements hurt her so deeply. So *if* she did strike out and hurt
someone I would respect HER enough not to be embarrassed, and enough
that I wouldn't change my parenting to placate others. I would step
in and advocate for my child, saying to someone that I'm sorry they
got hurt. I know my kids well enough to know she would not mind if I
said "E did this because of that, and she really didn't mean to hurt
you, she was upset" (which some kids would not like)
Similarly, since discussion just touched on painting walls, I'll talk
about cleaning house. I love a spotless house. I love totally clean
walls and windows and floors. Again, not feasible in a house with
children, so I had to reassess my boundaries. Were they realistic?
No. Were they fair to anyone else in the house? NO, especially if I
would tirade about the mess to them! My husband loves white walls.
Every wall in our house would be white if he wanted. But as part of
compromise, he had to move those boundaries of what was okay with
him, to include bright yellow, purple, red, pink, or blue walls.
Especially in the kids rooms. Breanna wrote in crayon on every single
wall (wished I had taken a picture before we repainted her room, it
was awesome) My boundary was to keep the entry way with white walls.
The kids were more than happy with that, because they KNEW that they
had lots of choices. It wasn't color the walls or not. Anyway, I'm
operating on lack of sleep, so I know not if this make sense.
town, and I'm tired.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> How do you respect the individual AND otherThe number one thing *I* did to respect my own personal boundaries
> people's (including your own) personal boundaries?
was to reassess where they were. A childhood of mainstream parenting
(bordering on neglect and abuse) left me with really unrealistic
boundaries. I definitely believed that adults had the right of way,
regardless of the topic. Once I saw that my boundaries, my
expectations were unrealistic, I could move them (slowly and
painfully, sometimes) Sometimes that goes for other people's
boundaries as well, if I need to advocate for my child, and help
someone realize that their boundaries are arbitrary or unfair.
For an individual child whose choices are not okay with someone else,
it may mean respecting them enough to realize that they just can't
handle a situation yet. A child who lashes out at the park needs a
LOT more help at the park than a child who can deal, so I respect
that by either staying with them, or visiting the park when it's not
a busy, or at night, or finding another park that is not as full.
Seeing an individuals needs helps to address them. I have a child
who's really sensitive to what people say. Seemingly innocuous
statements hurt her so deeply. So *if* she did strike out and hurt
someone I would respect HER enough not to be embarrassed, and enough
that I wouldn't change my parenting to placate others. I would step
in and advocate for my child, saying to someone that I'm sorry they
got hurt. I know my kids well enough to know she would not mind if I
said "E did this because of that, and she really didn't mean to hurt
you, she was upset" (which some kids would not like)
Similarly, since discussion just touched on painting walls, I'll talk
about cleaning house. I love a spotless house. I love totally clean
walls and windows and floors. Again, not feasible in a house with
children, so I had to reassess my boundaries. Were they realistic?
No. Were they fair to anyone else in the house? NO, especially if I
would tirade about the mess to them! My husband loves white walls.
Every wall in our house would be white if he wanted. But as part of
compromise, he had to move those boundaries of what was okay with
him, to include bright yellow, purple, red, pink, or blue walls.
Especially in the kids rooms. Breanna wrote in crayon on every single
wall (wished I had taken a picture before we repainted her room, it
was awesome) My boundary was to keep the entry way with white walls.
The kids were more than happy with that, because they KNEW that they
had lots of choices. It wasn't color the walls or not. Anyway, I'm
operating on lack of sleep, so I know not if this make sense.
>I'm not going to touch the rest of them right now. Zane is out of
town, and I'm tired.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]