Therese

Hi everyone,

I have a question, poll or whathave you about the TV. I know there was
a thread not too long ago, but I wanted some more clarification.
I am new at unschooling and still reading, but feel it is the best way
to go. (keep in mind my girls are young- ages 2 and 4). I have noticed
on many unschooling boards, the TV is not limited for children, and I
would like to know more about how big a roll the TV plays in regards to
unschooling little ones. I realize this can differ from family to
family.

Do your younger children watch it- how much of it and how do you lessen
the amount of TV if you feel its not healthy - mentally and physically?

I had recently read a book called, 'The Plug in Drug', and it had
prompted me to cancel our TV satellite service a while back... which Dh
and I weren't really watching anyways, so we turned it off and it was
fine. The book basically feels that TV is like a drug, and giving
children the option of watching however much TV they want is like
throwing cocaine to a drug user and saying, you can have however much
you want until you've had your fill... they do believe that children
will eventually self- regulate their TV watching on their own as they
grow older, but their point is- at what cost - losing so much time out
of their childhood, etc etc. I realize that that is a bit extreme...
still processing this.

Now with my little ones, we have moved from TV shows to movies. While
we don't have TV shows, they love to watch movies all day, and we have
gotten in the habit of watching 4-6 videos during the course of the day
from morning to evening. Lately they have been wanting to watch video
after video (not anything educational mind you). My 4 year old knows
how to operate our media center and turns it on herself .

So I again went back to reading and started to worry about some of the
studies done, such as reasons the AAP recommends no TV under 2. And
basically studies say that no matter what type of matierial is being
watched- even if its 'educational', there is an impact on the developing
brain connections in young children. And I worry that the TV is
impeding my 2 year olds language development, possible ADHD in the
future...

Quote from Jane Healy:

"Neuroscientists have shown that environmental experiences
significantly shape the developing brain because of the plasticity of
its neuronal connectivity. Thus, repeated exposure to any stimulus in a
child's environment may forcibly impact mental and emotional growth,
either by setting up particular circuitry ("habits of mind") or by
depriving the brain of other experiences. While appropriate stimuli
— close interaction with loving caregivers; an enriched,
interactive, human language environment; engrossing hands-on play
opportunities; and age-appropriate academic stimulation — enhance
the brain's development, environments that encourage intellectual
passivity and maladaptive behavior (e.g., impulsivity, violence), or
deprive the brain of important chances to participate actively in social
relationships, creative play, reflection and complex problem-solving may
have deleterious and irrevocable consequences."

My 2 year old wasn't speaking very much, and I really think that she
started speaking better after we got rid of the TV initially- which I
believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
instead of being a passive listener. So now that their has been a
revival of videos being watched in our home... I worry again how it is
affecting her brain and language again.

Here is a mothering article that struck me;
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/consumerism/turn_off_tv.\
html
<http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/consumerism/turn_off_tv\
.html>

"Many children become habituated to TV by their parents, who desire
a break from their child's activity and attention. However, the
short-term benefit of a quiet, mesmerized child may actually lead to a
greater dependence on adult supervision by creating children who are
less capable of amusing themselves. By supplanting their imaginations,
creating fast-paced pictures, and transforming active minds into passive
recipients, TV teaches mental lethargy. "

What do you think of that article? I have found this to be true- that
my children's imaginations are much more rich and organic when there
isn't the constant TV shows playing in their heads for them to act out.
They play much better by themselves without TV. And I do think my 4
year old gets over stimulated by the TV, much like when she was
younger... I have read studies linking TV to ADHD and I think her
sensory processing issues may have something to do with heavy TV as a
baby (baby einstein videos!!)

SO- I guess the bottom line is- I want my children to be healthy; that
is why we don't normally go through the drive thru's and I have gotten
my children used to a diet of mostly fruits and vegetables, and sprouted
whole grains from early on. They don't know any different. They
probably think every other kid also drinks green smoothies for
breakfast. So how is the TV any different? If they don't have it, then
wouldn't they get used to doing other more meaningful, developmentally
approapriate things for their age- such as playing in the mud? Why not
just make videos unavailable at home during this developmental period in
their little lives? I am not talking about shielding them from watching
TV at their grandmothers house or when their over with friends. I allow
my children to have cake at birthday parties and such too....

Overall, I want to increase the amount of reading time, outside play
time, and creative making time. BTW, I have been seeing a great
decrease in the amount of whining in my 4 year old because i have been
consistanly working on our relationship and trying to say 'YES" every
time she asks for things... so saying no to the TV is going to be a
conflict.... any ideas for me?

Completely against the idea? why?

Sorry this got so long!!

Therese

Gentle Christian <http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/> Mama in CA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

(sorry if the divisions between my writing and the original poster aren't clear, or are too clear. I was having difficulty getting it to separate the two voices.)


---------------snip------------------

I have a question, poll or whathave you about the TV. I know there was a thread not too long ago, but I wanted some more clarification.
I am new at unschooling and still reading, but feel it is the best way
to go. (keep in mind my girls are young- ages 2 and 4). I have noticed
on many unschooling boards, the TV is not limited for children, and I
would like to know more about how big a roll the TV plays in regards to unschooling little ones. I realize this can differ from family to
family.
--------------------snip---------------
When I first started exploring unschooling we were living in Japan. Simon's love of Pokemon was born in Japan. We used to watch the English versions and the Japanese versions that were offered on Japanese television. He loved them. They spun off into this amazing imaginative world. He and David used to duel using the Pokemon they could dream up and the attacks that they could either remember or that they could imagine. He created his own superhero who would rescue animals and pokemon from dangerous situations that I made up for him. He was so much fun to watch flying around the apartment rescuing stuffed animals and pokemon figurines. His play was all his own. No different from the cops and robbers games my brother used to play or the cowboys and indians games that my dad played.

-----------------snip-----------------

Do your younger children watch it- how much of it and how do you lessen the amount of TV if you feel its not healthy - mentally and physically?
---------------snip------------------
I don't actually feel that television watching is unhealthy. There are times when I notice that my children seem to be searching for something interesting in their lives. And it may be when I am noticing them skimming through channels more than usual, or more frustrated than usual. When that happens I try and have more things to do on offer. I look through the house for ideas or on the internet for new places to go. And I spice up our lives a little more. I don't rein in their television watching though.
----------------snip------------------

I had recently read a book called, 'The Plug in Drug', and it had
prompted me to cancel our TV satellite service a while back... which Dh and I weren't really watching anyways, so we turned it off and it was fine. The book basically feels that TV is like a drug, and giving
children the option of watching however much TV they want is like
throwing cocaine to a drug user and saying, you can have however much you want until you've had your fill... they do believe that children will eventually self- regulate their TV watching on their own as they grow older, but their point is- at what cost - losing so much time out of their childhood, etc etc. I realize that that is a bit extreme... still processing this.
------------------snip------------------
Given your response it seems like you feel that television is an evil to begin with and the book you read feed into all of those fears. I would recommend not reading those kinds of books for a while. Try reading books like Everything Bad is Good for You or Never Too Late: My Musical Life Story. Books that will help you to expand your world and dispell your prejudices rather than books that feed into your worst fears.

---------------------snip------------------------------

Now with my little ones, we have moved from TV shows to movies. While
we don't have TV shows, they love to watch movies all day, and we have
gotten in the habit of watching 4-6 videos during the course of the day
from morning to evening. Lately they have been wanting to watch video
after video (not anything educational mind you). My 4 year old knows
how to operate our media center and turns it on herself .
-----------------snip--------------------------------
Wow, your prejudices do run deep. "Not anything educational mind you"? I learn a heck of a lot from non-documentary television. Give us an example of one of your non-educational movies and I bet you the folks here could create a unit study from that movie. Learning happens everywhere, all the time. What you dismiss as not educational may produce a greater understanding of things than the educational programming that you might prefer.

-----------------snip---------------

So I again went back to reading and started to worry about some of the studies done, such as reasons the AAP recommends no TV under 2. And basically studies say that no matter what type of matierial is being watched- even if its 'educational' , there is an impact on the developing brain connections in young children. And I worry that the TV is impeding my 2 year olds language development, possible ADHD in the future...

----------------snip-------------
Quit reading the studies. It isn't good for you. You are freaking yourself out and that can't keep you calm and happy and engaging with your children. The studies that you are reading are out of date. The AAP also recommends not co-sleeping, and I'm sure a bunch of other things that you might not agree with. Quit worrying about it and sit down and watch television with your daughters. Quit spending time feeling like what they are enjoying is damaging them and enjoy it with them.

---------------snip----------------

Quote from Jane Healy:

"Neuroscientists have shown that environmental experiences
significantly shape the developing brain because of the plasticity of
its neuronal connectivity. Thus, repeated exposure to any stimulus in a
child's environment may forcibly impact mental and emotional growth,
either by setting up particular circuitry ("habits of mind") or by
depriving the brain of other experiences. While appropriate stimuli
— close interaction with loving caregivers; an enriched,
interactive, human language environment; engrossing hands-on play
opportunities; and age-appropriate academic stimulation — enhance
the brain's development, environments that encourage intellectual
passivity and maladaptive behavior (e.g., impulsivity, violence), or
deprive the brain of important chances to participate actively in social
relationships, creative play, reflection and complex problem-solving may
have deleterious and irrevocable consequences. "
--------------------snip----------------
So love on your kids, cuddle them, hang out with them, play with them, chat with them, sit with them, hold them while they are watching television. Give them the close interaction that she speaks about and don't hit them and yell at them. My kids have had repeated exposure to me, I'm a stimulus, all their lives. I don't know if that has set up "habits of mind" or not, but they don't seem to write a bunch of papers on how mothers should swap out children so that they don't engrave themselves on their brains. Lots of people just don't like television and they want to prove that it is a force for evil. People didn't used to like novels and the arguments against them were much the same.

--------------snip-----------------

My 2 year old wasn't speaking very much, and I really think that she
started speaking better after we got rid of the TV initially- which I
believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
instead of being a passive listener. So now that their has been a
revival of videos being watched in our home... I worry again how it is
affecting her brain and language again.
--------------snip----------------
If you are worried about her speaking talk to her. Engage with her. Talk about what she's watching. Watch it with her and share it with her. Be curious with her. The timing might very well have been coincidence. Give her the benefit of the doubt.
------------snip------------

Here is a mothering article that struck me;
http://www.motherin g.com/articles/ growing_child/ consumerism/ turn_off_ tv.\
html
<http://www.motherin g.com/articles/ growing_child/ consumerism/ turn_off_ tv\
.html>
--------------------snip--------------------
These kind of articles love to paint the picture that television produces violence. David, my husband, spent a lot of time looking at studies showing
some relationship between violent behavior and television watching and
found that the effect size is actually very small. That is that the
recorded change in behavior is minor. He also found that the studies
didn't really describe violence very clearly. What may have been interpreted as violence might have been kids pretending to shoot each other and making shooting noises. There wasn't any statement that the violence is actually hitting each other.
My favorite response to statements that television causes violence is from Deb Lewis: http://www.sandradodd.com/t/violence.html.

-------------------------snip-------------------------

"Many children become habituated to TV by their parents, who desire
a break from their child's activity and attention. However, the short-term benefit of a quiet, mesmerized child may actually lead to a
greater dependence on adult supervision by creating children who are less capable of amusing themselves. By supplanting their imaginations, creating fast-paced pictures, and transforming active minds into passive recipients, TV teaches mental lethargy. "
--------------------snip--------------------
Are you using television as a way to take a break from your kids? I don't. I often will sit and watch television with them and we chat about it and laugh and it spins off into interesting discussions and explorations. They watch shows over and over again. Simon particularly has been interested in watching certain comedy shows a lot lately. It is interesting to see how it is forming his understanding of humor and the timing of a punch line. There is a lot of creative exploration going on with the television or videos offering a contextualisation for him.

Television is another moment of sharing, of hanging out, of opportunity to be together, to snuggle, to joke, to smile. Read here for more about that: http://sandradodd.com/t/sharing
------------------------------


What do you think of that article? I have found this to be true- that
my children's imaginations are much more rich and organic when there isn't the constant TV shows playing in their heads for them to act out. They play much better by themselves without TV. And I do think my 4 year old gets over stimulated by the TV, much like when she was younger... I have read studies linking TV to ADHD and I think her sensory processing issues may have something to do with heavy TV as a baby (baby einstein videos!!)
---------------snip----------------------
You see what you want to see. There was a great experiment about parents who were told that their children had eaten lots of sugar at a party reporting that their kids were on a sugar high. The party hadn't had any sugary foods, just lots of fun things going on. Parents were interpreting what they believed would happen given their own preconceived notions.
Television isn't going to give someone ADHD. The studies that demonstrate a link between ADHD and television watching between the ages of 1 and 3 aren't showing any kind of causal link. That is there is no way of knowing that television watching produces ADHD or if ADHD leads to a preference to watch more television. And, hey, look here's a study that debunks the earlier study: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/mar/07/broadcasting.medicineandhealth
(http://tinyurl.com/5rw69t if that one is too long).
------------------------------------------


SO- I guess the bottom line is- I want my children to be healthy; that
is why we don't normally go through the drive thru's and I have gotten my children used to a diet of mostly fruits and vegetables, and sprouted whole grains from early on. They don't know any different. They probably think every other kid also drinks green smoothies for
breakfast. So how is the TV any different? If they don't have it, then
wouldn't they get used to doing other more meaningful, developmentally approapriate things for their age- such as playing in the mud? Why not just make videos unavailable at home during this developmental period in their little lives? I am not talking about shielding them from watching TV at their grandmothers house or when their over with friends. I allow my children to have cake at birthday parties and such too....
------------------------

Oddly controlling their food intake may not make them healthier. Children have very different food requirements to adults. Brain development requires more fats and sugars than does the more maintenance oriented work that adults bodies require. And what are you going to do when they realize that not all kids drink green smoothies for breakfast and they want to try the other breakfast options?
Simon and Linnaea, who haven't had food limited or arranged so that they eat a diet that is mostly fruits and vegetables and sprouted whole grains have been eating raspberries from the raspberry canes that are all around the garden and both are impatiently wanted to go to the pick-your-own strawberry places as soon as they are open and it isn't pissing down with rain. Actually, today it is blowing a gale, but maybe we can go and fill our punnets and our bellies with good English strawberries. Simon wants to bake a pie. For both of them there is no sense that any one food is better than any other food. They know nutrition, but they if they are hungry for cheese puffs or for a peanut wat or a bean burrito or an ice cream sandwich (a rare good as they don't sell them in the UK) their craving has more information in it than does the ingredients list on the wrapper.

--------------------------------------------

So how is the TV any different? If they don't have it, then
wouldn't they get used to doing other more meaningful, developmentally approapriate things for their age- such as playing in the mud? Why not just make videos unavailable at home during this developmental period in their little lives? I am not talking about shielding them from watching TV at their grandmothers house or when their over with friends. I allow my children to have cake at birthday parties and such too....
-----------------------------
Who are you to decide what is meaningful for someone else? For Linnaea watching Raven for the 5th time can be more meaningful than playing with the knot tying cards that I just pulled out, sometimes. For Simon, when he was 2, watching Tellytubbies all snuggled in my arms while we both shouted "again, again" was far more meaningful than listening to the Very Hungry Caterpillar or playing in the mud outside. Not that those things didn't happen also, but those moments with the Tellytubbies were very special to him. And if I had decided that my opinion, my view of his world was more important than his own, surely I would be producing a child as the article you mentioned fearfully warns has a "greater dependence on adult supervision by creating children who are less capable of amusing themselves."
------------------------

Overall, I want to increase the amount of reading time, outside play
time, and creative making time. BTW, I have been seeing a great
decrease in the amount of whining in my 4 year old because i have been consistanly working on our relationship and trying to say 'YES" every time she asks for things... so saying no to the TV is going to be a
conflict.... any ideas for me?

---------------------------
You don't have to say no to the television to increase the amount of reading time, outside play time and creative making time. Often the television accompanies some of that in our house. Creative time and the television combine quite nicely. Drawing, painting, making sculptures with playdoh, using candles to create wax shapes, typing on an old typewriter, building with hama beads, building with legos, building with blocks, dancing, playing games, playing dress-up, face painting, caring for animals, and more, we've done with the television on. Offering to read or to go outside and play hopscotch or jump rope or go to a cool nature reserve or go to the zoo or whatever it is that you want to do outside, those things don't have to mean excluding the television.

By limiting their choices to what you want them to do they won't ever get to choose freely what they want to do. And there will come a point where they are no longer living only under your roof. They will be making their choices based on the desire to have a limited good rather than on the desire to do or not to do. Pam Sooroshian gave a wonderful response once about how limiting a good can change it's worth: http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html.


Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

My 2 year old wasn't speaking very much, and I really think that she
started speaking better after we got rid of the TV initially- which I
believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
instead of being a passive listener.
 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Or she was then developmentaly ready to speak. Young children start speaking in chunks. One day they can't say cat very well , next day they are making full sentences.
I actually have observed the opposite at my house. My almost 29 month old has had unlimited TV ( premium satellite service) all her live and she really does not care that much for it. Sometimes I need to do something and I try to get her to watch some TV and she will have nothing to do with it.
She likes to be outside playing or helping dad with the cows.
When she was around 24 moths she was watching a few hours of TV a day for a couple of weeks and that is when she really started speaking. So for us I thing that TV did spark something there. It was a short lived fase. She got what she needed from TV and moved on.
I noticed the same when my DS was the same age.
Both my kids did not care bout TV until they were around 2 years old. I showed them cartoons since they were little but they did not really care about them.
I grew up with unlimited TV and I just don't understand all the fears around it. TV can be just another form of entertainment, a great way to learn about things, can spark great discussons, a way to connect with your kids....
My DH gets in from work very late and he is very tired and one of the ways he can connect with our ds is to watch some of their favorite shows sitting together in the same chair
.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~- which I
believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
instead of being a passive listener.~~

There's nothing passive about listening to, or watching tv.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Simon and Linnaea, who haven't had food limited or arranged so that they eat a diet that is mostly fruits and vegetables and sprouted whole grains have been eating raspberries from the raspberry canes that are all around the garden and both are impatiently wanted to go to the pick-your-own strawberry places as soon as they are open and it isn't pissing down with rain. Actually, today it is blowing a gale, but maybe we can go and fill our punnets and our bellies with good English strawberries. Simon wants to bake a pie. For both of them there is no sense that any one food is better than any other food. They know nutrition, but they if they are hungry for cheese puffs or for a peanut wat or a bean burrito or an ice cream sandwich (a rare good as they don't sell them in the UK) their craving has more information in it than does the ingredients list on the wrapper. 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Simon and Linnaea were visiting us for a couple of days. We also do not limit foods in our home. There were plenty of cookies, ice-cream and fruits on a tray available for the kids at any time.
Simon's favorite snack when he was here were the nectarines and peaches.  I even made  a  jole about it.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Overall, I want to increase the amount of reading time, outside play
time, and creative making time
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My ds ( he turns 6 next week) finds reading in everything. He nows like to read the chanel guide in the TV to find out what is playing in what chanel.
He is also always creating things in his mind and drawings , many ideas he gets form video games, TV or movies. He is sooo creative!
My 2 year old is always outside. TV does not have any power over you unless you give it power.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ann329851

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~- which I
> believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
> instead of being a passive listener.~~
>
> There's nothing passive about listening to, or watching tv.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
My kids watch tv sometimes, but i generally found that we had far
too much else to do than put it on. In all seriousness though..we no
longer have a tv connection in the house, we tend to watch dvds and
old videos..simply because for most of the time, the tv is full of
repeated programmes which have been aired a million times, and also
coz i refuse to pay for a tv license for shows i saw 100 times
already. so mine is a principle against the BBC in the UK as opposed
to feeling the telly is an evil or anything. i just feel i aint
paying 200 pounds per year for it. ann xxx

Wendy McDonald

> but I wanted some more clarification.
> I am new at unschooling and still reading, but feel it is the best way
> to go. (keep in mind my girls are young- ages 2 and 4).

My kids are young, too -- I have 5-year old twins. I am still moving
forward in my unschooling journey; we are not all the way there, yet,
but we are much further along than two years ago. Keep reading and
challenging yourself. Unschooling is not the easy path, it is hard.
But so far, every step of the way has been worth it many times over.

> I have noticed
> on many unschooling boards, the TV is not limited for children, and I
> would like to know more about how big a roll the TV plays in regards to
> unschooling little ones. I realize this can differ from family to
> family.
>
> Do your younger children watch it- how much of it and how do you lessen
> the amount of TV if you feel its not healthy - mentally and physically?

My kids have no limits on their tv. Even if I tried, at this point it
wouldn't work. They both know how to turn on the system, they can
enter the channel numbers they've memorized and scroll through the
guide for those they haven't. They can record shows, search the TiVo
list for shows they enjoy, delete stuff they didn't like, switch to
the DVD player . . .

The girls' tv viewing habits, like those of me and my dh, wax and
wane. During bad weather, or when I am preoccupied with something,
they often turn the tv on more frequently. They often watch tv during
breakfast, because it seems to take me a while to wake up in the
morning.

> I had recently read a book called, 'The Plug in Drug', and it had
> prompted me to cancel our TV satellite service a while back... which Dh
> and I weren't really watching anyways, so we turned it off and it was
> fine. The book basically feels that TV is like a drug, and giving
> children the option of watching however much TV they want is like
> throwing cocaine to a drug user and saying, you can have however much
> you want until you've had your fill... they do believe that children
> will eventually self- regulate their TV watching on their own as they
> grow older, but their point is- at what cost - losing so much time out
> of their childhood, etc etc. I realize that that is a bit extreme...
> still processing this.

Yeah, I started to read that book, and it just made me gag. I don't
understand how something can be like a drug but can be self-regulated.
One of the hallmarks of addiction is that one can never have enough.
If you remove restrictions on tv, then of course your children will
want to watch it non-stop for a while. They are checking to see if
you really mean "no restrictions." The suggestion that a child will
choose to watch tv for years and years instead of choosing other
activities is a little silly, really. I mean, would *you* choose to
do nothing but watch tv for years and years? If so, there must not be
anything else of interest in your life. The same holds true with
children.

If there is nothing else of interest in their lives, then of course tv
will become an all-day every day thing. My kids routinely turn off
the tv and let me know they're going outside, or they pull games off
the shelf, or haul out the dress-up stuff, or whatever. We have a
broad selection of toys, games, and activities that are easily
accessible to the kids -- shelves or bins holding everything within
easy reach. They don't have to ask, they can just pull out what they
want.

> Now with my little ones, we have moved from TV shows to movies. While
> we don't have TV shows, they love to watch movies all day, and we have
> gotten in the habit of watching 4-6 videos during the course of the day
> from morning to evening. Lately they have been wanting to watch video
> after video (not anything educational mind you). My 4 year old knows
> how to operate our media center and turns it on herself.

Which is cool, actually -- she is comfortable with the technology. We
were thrilled for our kids when they figured out the remotes and
whatnot. Movies are only "not educational" if you choose to see it
that way. *Finding Nemo* has led my kids to ask questions about the
oceans, different kinds of fish and what they eat, where the movie
takes place, Australia and what other kinds of animals live there, the
Crocodile Hunter (including how he died) and Bindi (who has her own
pretty cool show), the Wiggles, dancing, singing, acting, scuba
diving, giant sea turtles, whether or not sharks come close to the
beach, coral reefs, undersea mines, the minesweeper my dad served on
when he was in the Navy, ocean currents, the water cycle, wastewater
treatment . . . I'm serious. One movie.

> So I again went back to reading and started to worry about some of the
> studies done, such as reasons the AAP recommends no TV under 2. And
> basically studies say that no matter what type of matierial is being
> watched- even if its 'educational', there is an impact on the developing
> brain connections in young children. And I worry that the TV is
> impeding my 2 year olds language development, possible ADHD in the
> future...

Fear-mongering is everywhere. As your children's parent, you are with
them day in and day out. My dd Emma has "shown signs of ADHD" since
she was very young. I'm sure that if I sent her to school, she would
come back within a week carrying a note requesting that I get her on
Ritalin. She can jump from one thing to another faster than I can
realize. But she also has amazing concentration when she's working on
a project that's important to her. She has a far-reaching
imagination, and she comes up with most of the make-believe games that
she and her sister play. No way in the world would I think that those
abilities are a negative, and no way in the world would I let someone
else tell her they are. And seeing this in Emma has actually helped
me to realize that I am very similar, so instead of worrying about
labels, I've started to concentrate on being aware of how much I have
taken on, and trying to decrease my to-do list so I can focus on the
things I really enjoy. In finding a more successful way of dealing
with my own tendency to try everything and finish nothing, I hope to
provide a better model for Emma.

My dh didn't speak until somewhere between 2 and 3, and my MIL is
always quick to point out that once he did start speaking, he spoke in
complete sentences, and had a lot to say. Language development is
very individualized. Personally, we've found that since we constantly
involve the girls in our conversations -- tv or no tv -- they have
amazing vocabularies. Some kids are slower to talk, just like some
are slower to crawl, or walk, or feed themselves, or use the toilet .
. . .

> Quote from Jane Healy:
> depriving the brain of other experiences. While appropriate stimuli
> — close interaction with loving caregivers; an enriched,
> interactive, human language environment; engrossing hands-on play
> opportunities; and age-appropriate academic stimulation — enhance
> the brain's development, environments that encourage intellectual
> passivity and maladaptive behavior (e.g., impulsivity, violence), or
> deprive the brain of important chances to participate actively in social
> relationships, creative play, reflection and complex problem-solving may
> have deleterious and irrevocable consequences."

It doesn't take much effort to be on the sofa with your kids, watching
the video and making observations about what you see. Pause the video
comment that the character seems very sad, or frustrated, or whatever,
and have a short discussion about feelings. TV and videos are a great
springboard for talking about our emotions and the way we handle them
appropriately or not. I've found that it actually gives me more
opportunities to help my kids see what does and doesn't work wrt
problem solving, expressing feelings and emotions, and more.

> My 2 year old wasn't speaking very much, and I really think that she
> started speaking better after we got rid of the TV initially- which I
> believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
> instead of being a passive listener. So now that their has been a
> revival of videos being watched in our home... I worry again how it is
> affecting her brain and language again.

Again, talk about what you are seeing. And in addition to the videos,
get out and about. *Do* things. Go to the library for storytime,
visit a children's museum, have a picnic lunch at the park, go for a
hike, visit the aquarium, etc. If TV is the only thing in your
child's life, then of course it can have a negative impact. If the
only thing you ever eat is carrot, that can be a problem, too. But
unschooling is not about sitting in front of the tv all day long.
Unschooling is about exploring the world (which is huge and full of
many, many things to enjoy), and finding out where your interests lie.

> Here is a mothering article that struck me;
> "Many children become habituated to TV by their parents, who desire
> a break from their child's activity and attention. However, the
> short-term benefit of a quiet, mesmerized child may actually lead to a
> greater dependence on adult supervision by creating children who are
> less capable of amusing themselves. By supplanting their imaginations,
> creating fast-paced pictures, and transforming active minds into passive
> recipients, TV teaches mental lethargy. "
>
> What do you think of that article? I have found this to be true- that
> my children's imaginations are much more rich and organic when there
> isn't the constant TV shows playing in their heads for them to act out.
> They play much better by themselves without TV.

First off, I think that if you think unschooling is a good idea, you
would better serve yourself to stop reading mainstream or traditional
parenting magazines. They will make the journey more difficult. (I am
far enough along that I get frustrated with the mainstream advice I
see on some of my old bbs. I've stopped visitng them, because I was
often the only person who "let" my kids use the internet, or whatever,
and I never seemed to get any useful information. . . it got too
painful to sort through all the posts on spanking and time outs and
power-struggles in search of one nugget that usually wasn't there,
anyway.)

Second, I've found that my kids don't play *better* without TV . . .
just differently. Sometimes they act out a tv show, sometimes they
don't, and sometimes they take a tv show and add their own imaginative
components, or blend two shows together to create their own show.
They hold rock concerts and pretend they are the Wiggles or Laurie
Berkner. They created their own superhero mythology.

<snip>

> So how is the TV any different? If they don't have it, then
> wouldn't they get used to doing other more meaningful, developmentally
> approapriate things for their age- such as playing in the mud?

But my kids play in the mud, too. They love playing in the mud. TV
doesn't change that. They still have tea-parties. But instead of
dressing as princesses (like "most" little girls), they dress as
pirates, animals, or kung-fu masters instead.

<snip>

> Overall, I want to increase the amount of reading time, outside play
> time, and creative making time. BTW, I have been seeing a great
> decrease in the amount of whining in my 4 year old because i have been
> consistanly working on our relationship and trying to say 'YES" every
> time she asks for things... so saying no to the TV is going to be a
> conflict.... any ideas for me?

If you say YES in one area, why not another? One thing that really
helped me to let go of areas I still wanted some control over was
this: Instead of viewing it as a parent-child issue, how would it
change if it was an adult-adult issue? How would you feel and react
if your dh said you . . . couldn't have a piece of cake? . . .
weren't allowed to watch a movie you were interested in? . . . had to
have scrambled tofu for breakfast, when you wanted scrambled eggs?
Had to wear the blue dress instead of the black one?

So, say YES to the tv. But don't forget to fill up the calendar with
other things that are interesting. Take the kids to the beach, or on
a hike, or to a museum. Get out of the house at least several times a
week, and explore the world.

Wendy

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Therese <theresefranklin@...>

>>>>>>>>Do your younger children watch it- how much of it and how do
you lessen
the amount of TV if you feel its not healthy - mentally and physically?

-=-=-=-=-

I have a 20 year old and a 12 year old. They both watched as little
ones. Cameron (20) didn't have a TV his first 18 months. We lived on
the economy in Germany had got little to no reception. But he got to
watch a lot as soon as we moved back to the states. Duncan (12) never
had that limit.

But *I* don't feel that watching TV is unhealthy at all. So I don't
feel there's a problem mentally or physically.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>I had recently read a book called, 'The Plug in Drug',

-=-==-

A book based on fear and read by millions of frightened parents---many
of whom watched a LOT of TV as children.

-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>> and it had prompted me to cancel our TV satellite service a
while back...

-=-=-=-

If you read a "convincing" book about how apples cause children to "be"
ADHD, would you ban apples from your home? Because of a book?

Can you look at *YOUR CHILDREN* and see what makes them happy?

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>The book basically feels that TV is like a drug,

-=-=-=-=-

Well, the *book* feels nothing. But the author fears TV---and probably
doesn't like it much either. She blames the decline of SAT scores on
TV---but never even considers that *school* might actually be causing
the low scores. It's the "causation/correlation" thang.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>The book basically feels that TV is like a drug, and giving
children the option of watching however much TV they want is like
throwing cocaine to a drug user and saying, you can have however much
you want until you've had your fill... they do believe that children
will eventually self- regulate their TV watching on their own as they
grow older, but their point is- at what cost - losing so much time out
of their childhood, etc etc. I realize that that is a bit extreme...
still processing this.

-=-=-=-=-

It's VERY extreme. We *all*, when given freedom to make choices and
decisions (even "bad" ones), eventually self-regulate. How much TV do
*you* watch? Why? Because it was "regulated" and controlled when you
were a child? Why do we, as adults. choose NOT to watch TV 24/7?
Because we have the power to do just that! We really could keep the TV
on all day, every day. If we choose *not* to, why?

But if it's the best thing in my life right now, why *shouldn't* I
choose it? We should choose the things which make us happiest. And if
my life is so devoid of cool, fun things, TV is a pretty damned good
alternative to doing something I find not as fun. But my life is FULL
of cool, fun things, yet I still choose TV (Law & Order CI is on while
I type---a marathon! <g>).

None of my childhood was "lost" to TV. None of my adulthood is "lost"
to TV. None of my children's lives is lost to TV. TV is just a *part*
of our lives.

-=-==-=-

>>>>>>>Now with my little ones, we have moved from TV shows to movies.
While
we don't have TV shows, they love to watch movies all day, and we have
gotten in the habit of watching 4-6 videos during the course of the day
from morning to evening.

-=-=-=-=-

Cameron watched The Jungle Book, 101 Dalmations, and The Little Mermaid
repeatedly. With Dunc, it was The Jungle Book and Aladdin. I can assure
you, I probably know every line of The Jungle Book! <g> But they also
wanted me to sing the same songs over and over and over. And they
wanted the same books: Goodnight Moon; Go, Dog, Go;, and A Million
Chameleons---I could recite each one aloud to you! But little kids love
and *need* that repetition.

But if you allowed TV, you would probably get to see some *different*
shows! <g> But then you would see them again and again and again too!
<g>

-=-=-=-=-


>>>>>>> Lately they have been wanting to watch video
after video (not anything educational mind you).

-=-=-=-=-=-

PLEASE don't divide things into "educational" and "non-educational" on
this list! The sooner you can see *all* things as "educational," the
sooner you will understand unschooling.

We're *all* learning all the time---even if it *is* the 43rd time I've
seen this episode of Law & Order CI.

Does the hotlink fairy have a quick link to Sandra's Gilligan's Island
article?

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>My 4 year old knows
how to operate our media center and turns it on herself.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I wonder how and why she *learned* that? <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>So I again went back to reading and started to worry about
some of the
studies done, such as reasons the AAP recommends no TV under 2.

-=-=-=-=-=-

OK, so lets' assume they're right. Your children are two and four, so
it's really a non-issue anymore.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>And basically studies say that no matter what type of matierial
is being
watched- even if its 'educational', there is an impact on the developing
brain connections in young children.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

They're screwing with the facts to suit themselves and their agenda.

No matter *WHAT* is being watched---and that means YOU and the dog and
the fly on the window and the hummingbird at the flower and the
approaching thunderstorm and The Jungle Book---EVERYTHING!

EVERYTHING ("educational" or not) makes an impact on the developing
brains of ALL humans. We are ALL making connections ALL the time. It's
an on-going process that takes up our entire lives. TV and video games
and sing-a-longs and gardening and playing with the dog and drawing on
walls---EVERYTHING impacts our brains.

Why don't we choose to ban all those things before age two? What makes
TV different? Because it's pictures moving fast on a screen? Well, what
the hell does LIFE do? Just sit quietly? *My* life is busy and moves
faster than any TV show could! Seriously?

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>And I worry that the TV is
impeding my 2 year olds language development,

-=-=-=-=-=-

Yeah---hearing voices definitely impedes language development. <snort>

I bet she is just *fascinated* with all the new words she's hearing and
all the unusual voices and accents and intonations that she finds on
TV. Some of those voices are PRICELESS! Morgan Freeman, David Jansen,
Kevin Spacey---some voices are just melodious! Some are simply
memorable: Lauren Bacall, O'Connor's Archie Bunker, Robin Williams
(multiples! <g>). Unique voices, accents---I imagine children just eat
that UP!

Why should a child be "fascinated" by the same old voice (yours!) that
she hears all day every day? Those *new* voices are fabulous!

-=-=-=-==-=-=-

>>>>>>>possible ADHD in the future...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Oh my.

So...you believe TV possibly causes ADHD?

--=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>>Quote from Jane Healy:

"Neuroscientists have shown that environmental experiences
significantly shape the developing brain because of the plasticity of
its neuronal connectivity. Thus, repeated exposure to any stimulus in a
child's environment may forcibly impact mental and emotional growth,
either by setting up particular circuitry ("habits of mind") or by
depriving the brain of other experiences. While appropriate stimuli
— close interaction with loving caregivers; an enriched,
interactive, human language environment; engrossing hands-on play
opportunities; and age-appropriate academic stimulation — enhance
the brain's development, environments that encourage intellectual
passivity and maladaptive behavior (e.g., impulsivity, violence), or
deprive the brain of important chances to participate actively in social
relationships, creative play, reflection and complex problem-solving may
have deleterious and irrevocable consequences."

-=-=-=-=-=-

Ya' know---that's a bunch of gobbeldy-gook that means you should open
your child to as many different pleasant experiences as possible. And
the more and better the experiences, the more complex the brain
becomes. It's kind of like a "duh!" moment.

TV is not the enemy. Doing nothing is. And I can assure you that a mind
is NOT idle when watching TV.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>My 2 year old wasn't speaking very much, and I really think that
she
started speaking better after we got rid of the TV initially-

-=-=-=-=-=-

Could she maybe simply have been *ready* to speak?

It's kind of like drilling a child in reading. Chances are that the
child would read no matter what, but because the teacher spent weeks
and months drilling the child, the *drilling* "worked." And it really
had nothing to do with the child's suddenly being *ready* to read. The
"teacher" and her drills get the credit.

-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>which I
believe led to simply more chances for her to practice her language
instead of being a passive listener.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm having a problem understanding how listening can be passive. It is
really and truly how we learn a language. And the more language a child
hears, the more language she's learning.

And we don't "practice" language---we USE it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>> So now that their has been a
revival of videos being watched in our home... I worry again how it is
affecting her brain and language again.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Are you thinking that she will revert back and stop speaking?

-=-=-=-=-==-

"Many children become habituated to TV by their parents, who desire
a break from their child's activity and attention. However, the
short-term benefit of a quiet, mesmerized child may actually lead to a
greater dependence on adult supervision by creating children who are
less capable of amusing themselves. By supplanting their imaginations,
creating fast-paced pictures, and transforming active minds into passive
recipients, TV teaches mental lethargy. "

-=-=-=-=-

A parent who is not engaged with her child will create a child who
knows mom won't play with him because mom is too busy for him and finds
him a burden.

The *parent* is teaching the child that. NOT the TV.

The TV in such a negative home is a wonderful thing for that child. A
child that knows he's not important to the parent *should* look for
something better than that parent.

But we are *not* that family. I suggest you embrace TV as fun and just
another wonderful part of life to be enjoyed when you want it.

Sending a child to watch TV because you want a break or "me time" is
not the same as sitting WITH your child and enjoying a show or a movie.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>What do you think of that article?

-=-=-=-=-

I think it's crap.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>>I have found this to be true- that
my children's imaginations are much more rich and organic when there
isn't the constant TV shows playing in their heads for them to act out.

-=-=-=-=-

Really? Some mornings I would come downstairs and find Cameron
completely covered in "tiger stripes" that he'd drawn on himself to be
Sher Kahn. Then I would tie a "tail" to his waist and he would growl
and "swipe" us with his paw. I'd "tie" "fire" to his "tail," and he
would run off into the wild only to return with stories of what he did
to survive and come back for Mowgli afterwards. Or he'd be covered in
"spots" and go looking for 99 lost puppies. Or *both* boys wore capes
and costumes and were Bruce Wayne when they weren't Batman. I
encouraged imaginary friends. I oohed and aahed at the wild drawings
they made of new characters.

Rarely do "new" things come from nothing. Children (and adults) make
connections--and go from there. But they need somewhere to start.
Having very little personal experience to call on makes TV, movies, and
stories a great place to start. They (WE!) use what they know to build
on.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>They play much better by themselves without TV.

-=-=-=-

Then trash the TV. I'm sure a family here would be willing to take
yours. No one's making you keep it.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>I have read studies linking TV to ADHD and I think her
sensory processing issues may have something to do with heavy TV as a
baby (baby einstein videos!!)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

TV is so incredibly powerful. If *I* had the kind of power "studies"
give to TV, I could take over the world. Anybody want to be my "Pinky?"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

SO- I guess the bottom line is- I want my children to be healthy; that
is why we don't normally go through the drive thru's and I have gotten
my children used to a diet of mostly fruits and vegetables, and sprouted
whole grains from early on. They don't know any different. They
probably think every other kid also drinks green smoothies for
breakfast.

-=-=-=-

Yeah---great. But what happens when they find out about Fruit Loops and
milkshakes and Oatmeal Cream Cakes? Will you freak out when they want
those? Or will you accept that that is OK?

You don't have to decide now. But it's certainly something to think
about 'cause that day *will* come.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>So how is the TV any different?

-=-=-=-=-

It's not. But when you have kept things from them for so long, how will
*you* react when they decide they don't want to follow your lead? What
if they find that they LOVE South Park and Oreos? What if they *gorge*
on South Park and Oreos? How will you react?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>If they don't have it, then
wouldn't they get used to doing other more meaningful, developmentally
approapriate things for their age- such as playing in the mud?

-=-=-=-=

Will they?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>Why not just make videos unavailable at home during this
developmental period in
their little lives?

-=-=-=-=-

Why not? Go for it. Let us know how it turns out.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>I am not talking about shielding them from watching
TV at their grandmothers house or when their over with friends. I allow
my children to have cake at birthday parties and such too....

-=-=-=-=-=-

So...you're willing to have them think that you're just mean and
controlling?

I've watched children like yours at homeschool picnics. They quietly
watch us eat burgers and fries while they slowly munch on cucumbers and
carrot sticks.

*My* child loves cucumbers and carrot sticks, and the other kids are
always willing to share theirs----but they're not allowed a french fry.

The same kids come here and want to watch South Park, eat M&Ms, and
play "violent" video games to excess.

But...whatever works.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>Overall, I want to increase the amount of reading time, outside
play
time, and creative making time.

-=-=-=-

Then make them fun---*more* entertaining than TV. If something is more
entertaining than something else, people tend to choose the more
interesting thing (*OR* that which is limited, whether it's cooler or
not). That's human nature.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>BTW, I have been seeing a great
decrease in the amount of whining in my 4 year old because i have been
consistanly working on our relationship and trying to say 'YES" every
time she asks for things... so saying no to the TV is going to be a
conflict.... any ideas for me?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I wouldn't limit the TV. I'd let them watch as much as they like---and
at the same time make others things *just* as exciting. Go places, DO
things. BE exciting!

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>Completely against the idea? why?

-=-=-=-=-=-

Yep. Because people crave what they can't have. And parents who limit
and control children are just setting themselves up for children who
won't/don't trust them. It works great when they're little, but
children don't stay that way.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Robin Bentley

> Does the hotlink fairy have a quick link to Sandra's Gilligan's Island
> article?
>

Poof!!

http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan

Ren Allen

~~The book basically feels that TV is like a drug,~~


There are books that will tell you school is absolutely necessary and
your child won't succeed without it. There are books that very
convincingly discuss how necessary it is to start teaching children
how to read and write and do math at VERY young ages. Baby stage even.
There are books to convince you that black paint and plastic toys and
tv and video games and all sorts of things that interest children are
bad for them.

I assume that as unschoolers we can sift through any book and any list
and any information utilizing the critical thinking skills we have at
birth.:) Question the experts, that should be a motto for unschoolers.
Question books, question lists, question religion, question experts,
question EVERYTHING! Hell, question us! Thinking for oneself involves
a lot more struggle and analyzing. It's also very freeing.:)

CAN tv be truly harmful?
Can anything a child is interested in harm them when explored with a
loving and connected adult?
We're not advocating neglect...but we are advocating freedom of
choice. Yes, even for children. They have so few choices if the adults
in their lives choose to limit and control them.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Therese Franklin

Kelly- great stuff!! Awesome response!



>>>>If you read a "convincing" book about how apples cause children to "be"
ADHD, would you ban apples from your home? Because of a book? Can you look
at *YOUR CHILDREN* and see what makes them happy?>>

Good point. I am usually pretty discerning of what I read. And to answer
your question, lately I don't know what makes my 4 year old happy. I am
trying to connect with her right now. So many times I have asked her, WHY
are you SO unhappy ALL the time. Why do you cry and whine most of the
day??? What can I do to make you happy? This is a work in progress right
now. I still breastfeed and sling my 2 year old, so I always worry I'm not
spending enough time with my independent, sensitive little 4 year old girl.
So far we have been having better days with all the yeses, though DH thinks
I'm creating a monster.. That's another post.



>>>>>How much TV do *you* watch? Why? Because it was "regulated" and
controlled when you were a child? Why do we, as adults. choose NOT to watch
TV 24/7? Because we have the power to do just that! We really could keep the
TV on all day, every day. If we choose *not* to, why?>>>

Okay, so I see you are leading me somewhere with this, and I will go ahead
and take the plunge.. The problem I have with this is that - I don't think
children are just merely small adults. (Although I believe we have the same
feelings that children do, which makes us better able to understand and meet
their needs.). Yet adults can sometimes predict what can happen - forsee
things that children cannot see. I can predict that if the TV is on ALL DAY
that my 4 year old will be crying and whining for the most of the afternoon
and evening, over stimulated, tired and upset. Now- the reason could
possibly be because I don't watch the videos WITH her, as you mentioned and
she is craving my cuddles and attention. But I am just not interested in
watching Jungle book for the 14th time with her. This is why I would much
rather be playing with her than watching TV. Getting rid of videos is more
a kick in the pants for ME- for me to spend more time with her rather than
ME being on the computer all day. That said, I DID have unlimited TV time
as a teen- the TV was always on when I was home.



>> PLEASE don't divide things into "educational" and "non-educational" on
this list! The sooner you can see *all* things as "educational," the sooner
you will understand unschooling>>

Please forgive this newbie mistake. I see I touched a nerve here with many
about this. I 'get' it now.



>>>>>>>My 4 year old knows
how to operate our media center and turns it on herself.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I wonder how and why she *learned* that? <bwg>>>
LOL. Yes, she has amazed me with how she can use a computer, use the mouse
to find the right folder, and begin to 'read' which movie file is the
correct one she wants. Yes there has been a lot of learning by turning on
the media center.



>>> TV is not the enemy. Doing nothing is. And I can assure you that a mind
is NOT idle when watching TV.>>>



Don't knock having time to do nothing. I'm pretty sure that children NEED
time to do nothing. Genius can be created out of boredom.



>>>>>>>
Could she maybe simply have been *ready* to speak?
It's kind of like drilling a child in reading. Chances are that the
child would read no matter what, but because the teacher spent weeks
and months drilling the child, the *drilling* "worked." And it really
had nothing to do with the child's suddenly being *ready* to read. The
"teacher" and her drills get the credit.>>
-=-=-=-



Very good point. She probably WAS ready to speak. as soon as I turned off
the TV and was able to listen to her. LOL



>>> Why don't we choose to ban all those things before age two? What makes
TV different? Because it's pictures moving fast on a screen? I'm having a
problem understanding how listening can be passive. And we don't "practice"
language---we USE it.>>>



By 'practicing' I mean using it- not watching TV.. The brain has been
studied while watching tv and while doing other things. The theory is that
when a child is 'listening' to the TV, they are only using receptors from
one (right was it?) side of the brain, whereas the thinking, discerning,
calculating, applying parts of the brain are not being used. They are not
'thinking' or discerning (talking early childhood here)- everything that
comes in is pure truth to them. when a child is reading, or using the
computer, or playing outside, both sides of the brain are being used at
once. And the connectors between the two halves are being formed at these
early ages- so when a child is spending 55 hours a week of watching TV, that
is much less time for those connectors to do their thing, than a child who
is using both sides of their brain most of the day, most of the time, by
playing, reading, riding their tricycle, talking to mom and dad, etc etc..



>>>>Really? Some mornings I would come downstairs and find Cameron
completely covered in "tiger stripes" that he'd drawn on himself to be Sher
Kahn. Then I would tie a "tail" to his waist and he would growl and "swipe"
us with his paw. I'd "tie" "fire" to his "tail," and he would run off into
the wild only to return with stories of what he did to survive and come back
for Mowgli afterwards.>>>>



Okay that totally sounds like my 4 year old!! I don't discount that this
type of pretend play is useful- it IS meaningful and useful to them and that
is a good point.



>>>Yeah---great. But what happens when they find out about Fruit Loops and
milkshakes and Oatmeal Cream Cakes? Will you freak out when they want those?
Or will you accept that that is OK? You don't have to decide now. But it's
certainly something to think about 'cause that day *will* come.>>>



We are a part of more than a few playgroups and that day has already came
and went. I don't freak when they want those things- I freely let them have
the treats they want, as much cake as they want and I let them get their
stomachaches- they don't usually want it after that. (Both my girls have
allergies to milk proteins) You must have misunderstood me before. I do
allow for the freedom of French fries when we are out and that's all that
available or when we are at parties. If they want French fries, they can
have it.But my kids like and crave natural foods ;) I buy organic healthy
and mostly vegan food to eat at home, and they like it. I just try to model
healthy eating. The cool thing is that most of my mommy friends buy the
organic natural fruit loops and bring those in baggies to share. We make
Oatmeal cookies, chocolate cake, and apple pie, chocolate shakes, and its
all healthy and raw. I don't think they feel they are missing out.



>>>Yep. Because people crave what they can't have. And parents who limit
and control children are just setting themselves up for children who
won't/don't trust them. It works great when they're little, but
children don't stay that way>>>



I agree with you. I am learning to let go of lots of controlling behaviors-
things my mother did to me, etc etc.



As for limiting the TV- I have not put any limits on videos right now, I'm
don't think that creating a power struggle will do any good. I am just
trying to follow the advice of BEING interesting and having interesting
things in their reach, and keeping busy by going to interesting places and
such. So far we have had an awesome day at the beach today, with lots of
playing in the sand and water and seaweed. Days like this make me not
worry.



But I do overly worry about stuff most of the time, and what other people
say about how we plan to homeschool- 'irresponsible parenting', etc etc.
And after having taught elementary school, I am big time still de-schooling
myself.



Love the responses! Thank you!



Therese







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese Franklin

Wendy,



Thank you so much for your kind post. This is what I was looking for. I
appreciate you talking directly to me without sarcasm or snarky remarks. So
much of this made sense to me. Especially this stuff;



>>> Language development is very individualized. Personally, we've found
that since we constantly involve the girls in our conversations -- tv or no
tv -- they have amazing vocabularies. Some kids are slower to talk, just
like some are slower to crawl, or walk, or feed themselves, or use the
toilet .
>>>

So so true.



>>>>.Again, talk about what you are seeing. And in addition to the videos,
get out and about. *Do* things. Go to the library for storytime,visit a
children's museum, have a picnic lunch at the park, go for a hike, visit the
aquarium, etc. If TV is the only thing in your child's life, then of course
it can have a negative impact. If the only thing you ever eat is carrot,
that can be a problem, too. But unschooling is not about sitting in front of
the tv all day long. Unschooling is about exploring the world (which is huge
and full of many, many things to enjoy), and finding out where your
interests lie>>>



Thank you. This makes sense to me.



>>>Second, I've found that my kids don't play *better* without TV . . .just
differently.>>



Okay I can see that.



>>>First off, I think that if you think unschooling is a good idea, you
would better serve yourself to stop reading mainstream or traditional
parenting magazines. They will make the journey more difficult.>>>



Oddly enough the article was from 'Mothering' magazine. Which is NOT
mainstream. Their magazine and discussion forum.
www.mothering.com/discussions , is where I found info to help me homebirth
my little one, and support in non-vaccination and gentle discipline.

I have also found seemingly anti-TV sentiments from unschooling articles
such as John Taylor Gatto's 'Against School
<http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm#source> ' and 'Why schools don
<http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html> 't educate';

Here is a quote from 'Why schools Don't Educate':

"But keep in mind that in the United States almost nobody who reads, writes
or does arithmetic gets much respect. We are a land of talkers, we pay
talkers the most and admire talkers the most, and so our children talk
constantly, following the public models of television and schoolteachers. It
is very difficult to teach the "basics" anymore because they really aren't
basic to the society we've made."

"Two institutions at present control our children's lives - television and
schooling, in that order. Both of these reduce the real world of wisdom,
fortitude, temperance, and justice to a never-ending, non-stopping
abstraction. In centuries past the time of a child and adolescent would be
occupied in real work, real charity, real adventures, and the realistic
search for mentors who might teach what you really wanted to learn. A great
deal of time was spent in community pursuits, practicing affection, meeting
and studying every level of the community, learning how to make a home, and
dozens of other tasks necessary to become a whole man or woman."

But overall I think this is coming from a man who was overly fed-up with
'teaching' school children in the failing system that it is. I realize that
he isn't talking about homeschoolers here. Just how TV plays a role in
schooled children's lives. I am coming to realize that I may be putting a
lot of my own fears into this because when I wasn't in school, my escape was
TV- same with my Dh. So when we think of being 'out of school' and 'doing
whatever we want'. we think of what we did- massive TV time after school.
Yet my children will have the benefit of living without institutionalized
schooling.. Hmm I have to think about this more.



>>>So, say YES to the tv. But don't forget to fill up the calendar with
other things that are interesting. Take the kids to the beach, or on a hike,
or to a museum. Get out of the house at least several times a week, and
explore the world.>>>



Excellent. This sounds very balanced to me. Funny enough we didn't watch
any videos today- we were at the beach! They LOVED it.



Thanks again,

Therese



,___



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese Franklin

Thank you. My dd has also learned to recognize the letters to be able to
turn on her favorite movies.



I definitely don't want to give power to the TV.



_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] TV- help me understand



Overall, I want to increase the amount of reading time, outside play
time, and creative making time
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My ds ( he turns 6 next week) finds reading in everything. He nows like to
read the chanel guide in the TV to find out what is playing in what chanel.
He is also always creating things in his mind and drawings , many ideas he
gets form video games, TV or movies. He is sooo creative!
My 2 year old is always outside. TV does not have any power over you unless
you give it power.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese Franklin

Thank you. I never said that I limited my children's food intake or
choices. Only that - healthy food is what I offer at home- they don't know
any different. Its all yummy to them. We only shop at Organic health food
stores, so they can have their pick and be satisfied. My question was-
wouldn't TV be similar- in that- if they had never watched it regularly from
the beginning, maybe they wouldn't know any different - so that it wouldn't
have become the problem it is now? Ofcourse they would see it at other
places, and I would allow that, but if it just wasn't something we had- then
maybe it wouldn't be the driving force of their day like it is now? I sort
of blame myself because I put them in front of the TV from when they were
BABIES just so I could have a shower, and then later on, I would use it as a
babysitter so I could have time for myself- and its still that way now. I
NEVER watch WITH them. Although my dd yells, "MOM WATCH THIS!! WATCH
THIS!!" from time to time. And I look up and go WOW. And I see that this
is part of the problem now.



But here I am now, and I can't go back in time (although I still think about
it for future babies), and I want to connect with my dd. I ask her to play
games. no mom. I ask her to do stuff. no, I want to stay home and have
Jammie time- which basically means staying in her pajamas all day watching
movies. I want to move on from this..



Therese



>>>Simon and Linnaea, who haven't had food limited or arranged so that they
eat a diet that is mostly fruits and vegetables and sprouted whole grains
have been eating raspberries from the raspberry canes that are all around
the garden and both are impatiently wanted to go to the pick-your-own
strawberry places as soon as they are open and it isn't pissing down with
rain. Actually, today it is blowing a gale, but maybe we can go and fill our
punnets and our bellies with good English strawberries. Simon wants to bake
a pie. For both of them there is no sense that any one food is better than
any other food. They know nutrition, but they if they are hungry for cheese
puffs or for a peanut wat or a bean burrito or an ice cream sandwich (a rare
good as they don't sell them in the UK) their craving has more information
in it than does the ingredients list on the wrapper.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Simon and Linnaea were visiting us for a couple of days. We also do not
limit foods in our home. There were plenty of cookies, ice-cream and fruits
on a tray available for the kids at any time.
Simon's favorite snack when he was here were the nectarines and peaches. I
even made a jole about it.>>>


Alex Polikowsky




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese Franklin

I see what you are saying, but the research just doesn't back this. I don't
believe this.



This is not to say that I am going to limit TV. but I do plan to make *life*
more interesting that the TV, and maybe start watching with them.



I thought this was an interesting article about teens and TV;

http://www.news-tribune.net/features/cnhinsfamily_story_093184842.html



Therese

>>>~~- which Ibelieve led to simply more chances for her to practice her
language
instead of being a passive listener.~~

>>>There's nothing passive about listening to, or watching tv. >>>

_._,___ Ren



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese Franklin

----------------snip-------------
Quit reading the studies. It isn't good for you. You are freaking yourself
out and that can't keep you calm and happy and engaging with your children.
The studies that you are reading are out of date. The AAP also recommends
not co-sleeping, and I'm sure a bunch of other things that you might not
agree with. Quit worrying about it and sit down and watch television with
your daughters. Quit spending time feeling like what they are enjoying is
damaging them and enjoy it with them.
>>>>>

Well said. I may just do that. AAP doesn't know jack about co-sleeping.
And as far as not worrying about what is damaging them- that is always on my
mind.

-----------------------------
Who are you to decide what is meaningful for someone else? For Linnaea
watching Raven for the 5th time can be more meaningful than playing with the
knot tying cards that I just pulled out, sometimes. For Simon, when he was
2, watching Tellytubbies all snuggled in my arms while we both shouted
"again, again" was far more meaningful than listening to the Very Hungry
Caterpillar or playing in the mud outside. Not that those things didn't
happen also, but those moments with the Tellytubbies were very special to
him. And if I had decided that my opinion, my view of his world was more
important than his own, surely I would be producing a child as the article
you mentioned fearfully warns has a "greater dependence on adult supervision
by creating children who are less capable of amusing themselves."
------------------------

Yes, I can see that Tellytubbies isn't special in itself, but the time
together was.

---------------------------
You don't have to say no to the television to increase the amount of reading
time, outside play time and creative making time. Often the television
accompanies some of that in our house. Creative time and the television
combine quite nicely. Drawing, painting, making sculptures with playdoh,
using candles to create wax shapes, typing on an old typewriter, building
with hama beads, building with legos, building with blocks, dancing, playing
games, playing dress-up, face painting, caring for animals, and more, we've
done with the television on. Offering to read or to go outside and play
hopscotch or jump rope or go to a cool nature reserve or go to the zoo or
whatever it is that you want to do outside, those things don't have to mean
excluding the television.

By limiting their choices to what you want them to do they won't ever get to
choose freely what they want to do. And there will come a point where they
are no longer living only under your roof. They will be making their choices
based on the desire to have a limited good rather than on the desire to do
or not to do. Pam Sooroshian gave a wonderful response once about how
limiting a good can change it's worth: http://www.sandrado
<http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html.> dd.com/t/economics.html.

Thank you, I will read this.

Therese



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese Franklin

Thank you Ren. I agree- children do have so few choices. They need love
and grace, just as we all do.



This is well stated;

>>>CAN tv be truly harmful?
Can anything a child is interested in harm them when explored with a
loving and connected adult?
We're not advocating neglect...but we are advocating freedom of
choice. Yes, even for children. They have so few choices if the adults
in their lives choose to limit and control them.>>>





And I agree, there are many books full of junk- like James Dobson. blech!!
I usually do my reading with discernment, and while reading 'The Plug in
Drug' I had alot of 'wrong' alarms going off, but yes, it fed into my fears,
as I have discussed in other posts.

>>>There are books that will tell you school is absolutely necessary and
your child won't succeed without it. There are books that very
convincingly discuss how necessary it is to start teaching children
how to read and write and do math at VERY young ages. Baby stage even.
There are books to convince you that black paint and plastic toys and
tv and video games and all sorts of things that interest children are
bad for them.>>>

>>>>I assume that as unschoolers we can sift through any book and any list
and any information utilizing the critical thinking skills we have at
birth.:) Question the experts, that should be a motto for unschoolers.
Question books, question lists, question religion, question experts,
question EVERYTHING! Hell, question us! Thinking for oneself involves
a lot more struggle and analyzing. It's also very freeing.:)>>>

Yes. I began to question the medical establishment and the way women give
birth in hospitals today. I am so glad I did. I also questioned vaccines
and my doctor and did my own research. I am very glad in those decisions
that I have made by educating myself and not just accepting what others knew
as 'fact'.








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 22, 2008, at 1:49 PM, ann329851 wrote:

> so mine is a principle against the BBC in the UK as opposed
> to feeling the telly is an evil or anything.

Unschooling is for our kids, though. If our principles limit our kids
access to the world, it's better for unschooling to find a different
way to follow our principles or to set them aside for principles that
should be at a higher priority: our kids' free exploration of the world.

If a parent doesn't like plastic and decides money won't be spent on
plastic, the children's choice of toys shrinks to support the
parent's desires.

If a parent doesn't like to read and decides their time is better
spent on other things, the children's worlds are limited by the
parents likes and dislikes.

Vegetarian parents have found ways to stick to their principles and
not eat meat without forcing their choice on their kids.

If a parent doesn't like TV or books or plastic or meat, then a
parent doesn't need to choose it for themselves. But it will help
unschooling a great deal to support children in what they enjoy. And
for many things -- especially if a parent "just doesn't like" a thing
-- to find a way to enjoy what their kids enjoy to share that part of
their lives.

> i just feel i aint
> paying 200 pounds per year for it.

And how many dollars have I spent on classes for my daughter while I
sat in the hall? By that argument I shouldn't have signed her up for
classes she wanted because I didn't get anything from them.
Unschooling isn't about us. It's about supporting our kids and
opening the world to them.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

***I want to connect with my dd. I ask her to play
> games. no mom. I ask her to do stuff. no, I want to stay home and have
> Jammie time- which basically means staying in her pajamas all day
watching
> movies.***


If you say yes to her more - watching stuff *you* don't care to watch,
even if it's for the 14th time - she may say yes to you more. I want
to say, "she WILL" but it sounds like there's much healing to do.

peace,
Caren

diana jenner

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Therese Franklin <
theresefranklin@...> wrote:

> But here I am now, and I can't go back in time (although I still think
> about
> it for future babies), and I want to connect with my dd. I ask her to play
> games. no mom. I ask her to do stuff. no, I want to stay home and have
> Jammie time- which basically means staying in her pajamas all day watching
> movies.
>
> I want to move on from this..
>
>
>
>


*YOU* may want to move on from this, your dd, on the other hand, is exactly
where she wants to be. You had your childhood & I imagine you didn't have a
mama who supported you exactly where you are... right here, right now, you
have the chance to meet your child where she is and *BE* there with her,
fully. Do not waste your time wishing you were somewhere/sometime else. Make
staying in jammies and watching movies with mama her all-time favorite
childhood memory!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], "ann329851"
<annworsley991@...> wrote:
and also
> coz i refuse to pay for a tv license for shows i saw 100 times
> already. so mine is a principle against the BBC in the UK as opposed
> to feeling the telly is an evil or anything. i just feel i aint
> paying 200 pounds per year for it. ann xxx
>
What exactly is a tv license? Is it like paying for satellite service
or cable service? How does the 200 pounds per year stack up against
your average video rental fees/purchases? rough calculation from the
web indicates that 200 pounds is roughly 250 Euros or about 390
dollars. Netflix is about $17 per month (3 DVDs at a time) or about
$210 per year. That's in addition to digital cable (that's where our
favorite shows are - Food Network, Discovery channels, etc - any other
Dirty Jobs folks out there?)

One thing to consider is not whether you've seen the shows 100 times
but whether your kids might want to see those shows over and over (and
watching the same thing repeatedly is a normal part of child
development, same reason they request the same books to be read aloud
over and over).

--Deb

Deb

--- In [email protected], "Therese Franklin"
<theresefranklin@...> wrote:
>
> I see what you are saying, but the research just doesn't back this.
I don't
> believe this.

You don't believe that listening/watching TV is not passive? C'mon over
to my house LOL! Have you ever experienced un (not) schooled kids watch
TV? Very different experience than seeing schooled kids trying to
unwind and relax after a full day's work. For comparison, how is
reading any more 'active' than TV watching (most parents are happy if
their kids spend a chunk of time reading every day)? Aside from the
obvious movements of eye muscles and hand/fingers to physically
manipulate the object, is it any more active than TV watching?

--Deb

Schuyler

In the UK the BBC is like PBS in that it doesn't have commercials, but rather than have telethons all individuals who own a television that is receiving television programming pay 139.00 pounds (for color television and 47 pounds for black and white) per year. It is a tax for BBC programming. It covers quite a lot of stations including radio, I believe. We pay it monthly. It doesn't really hurt nor does it make me that angry. And, if I don't like anything that's on BBC in an evening I have something to grumble about.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com


----- Original Message ----
From: Deb <debra.rossing@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 23 June, 2008 6:19:07 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: TV- help me understand


--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "ann329851"
<annworsley991@ ...> wrote:
and also
> coz i refuse to pay for a tv license for shows i saw 100 times
> already. so mine is a principle against the BBC in the UK as opposed
> to feeling the telly is an evil or anything. i just feel i aint
> paying 200 pounds per year for it. ann xxx
>
What exactly is a tv license? Is it like paying for satellite service
or cable service? How does the 200 pounds per year stack up against
your average video rental fees/purchases? rough calculation from the
web indicates that 200 pounds is roughly 250 Euros or about 390
dollars. Netflix is about $17 per month (3 DVDs at a time) or about
$210 per year. That's in addition to digital cable (that's where our
favorite shows are - Food Network, Discovery channels, etc - any other
Dirty Jobs folks out there?)

One thing to consider is not whether you've seen the shows 100 times
but whether your kids might want to see those shows over and over (and
watching the same thing repeatedly is a normal part of child
development, same reason they request the same books to be read aloud
over and over).

--Deb



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ann329851

--- In [email protected], "Deb" <debra.rossing@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Therese Franklin"
> <theresefranklin@> wrote:
> >
> > I see what you are saying, but the research just doesn't back
this.
> I don't
> > believe this.
>
> You don't believe that listening/watching TV is not passive? C'mon
over
> to my house LOL! Have you ever experienced un (not) schooled kids
watch
> TV? Very different experience than seeing schooled kids trying to
> unwind and relax after a full day's work. For comparison, how is
> reading any more 'active' than TV watching (most parents are happy
if
> their kids spend a chunk of time reading every day)? Aside from the
> obvious movements of eye muscles and hand/fingers to physically
> manipulate the object, is it any more active than TV watching?
>
> --Deb
>
aarrgghhh, now im wondering why my tv lisence is higher than £139.
i pay or did pay £15 per month for 12 months which made my bill
nearly 200 quid. makes me even more reluctant to fork out for another
one !!!! definately sticking to the dvds. for us, and our situation
the telly is just a waste of our time, although i know for others its
something they enjoy. i suppose its a case of use it if it works for
you...it doesnt for us...so we dont !!! ann

Therese Franklin

>>> For comparison, how is reading any more 'active' than TV watching (most
parents are happy if their kids spend a chunk of time reading every day)?
Aside from the obvious movements of eye muscles and hand/fingers to
physically manipulate the object, is it any more active than TV watching?
>>>



_____

There has been much research on this- and there is a BIG difference in the
brain / brain activity when a child reads vs. watching tv.



Like I said before; when brains are measured during TV watching, only
receptors from one (right I think) side of the brain are being used, whereas
the areas of the brain for thinking, discerning, calculating, applying parts
of the brain are not being used. (Left brain activities) They are not
'thinking' or discerning- everything that comes in is pure truth to them.
When a child is reading, or using the computer, or playing outside, both
sides of the brain are being used at once.



The connectors between the two halves of the brain are being formed at these
early ages- so when a child is spending 55 hours a week of watching TV, that
is much less time for those connectors to do their thing, than a child who
is using both sides of their brain most of the day, most of the time, by
playing, reading, riding their tricycle, talking to mom and dad, etc etc..



So, as parents we are to keep our children safe and healthy. I'm not in the
habit of feeding my children junk- and they like the healthy organic food I
give them. If early TV has been shown to be linked with neurological delays
and irrevocable damage, then I think we should possibly consider not having
TV around to watch for the wee ones... because if that is keeping our
children from future harm, then is it much different from feeding our
children healthy meals and keeping our children from harm by not letting
them cross the street themselves without holding hands?



Please understand, I am not talking about suddenly disallowing TV for older
children- because I think that can have disastrous effects for the
parent/child relationship. I am definitely NOT a punitively minded parent-
I believe gentle discipline and mindful parenting are key to a happy
relationship with children. And as other posts have mentioned,
relationships can be formed watching TV together, snuggling, and discussing
what was watched.



My struggle is how to create meaningful non-tv experiences with my children
once they have already been living a life full of tv.



Thanks,

Therese







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Therese Franklin <theresefranklin@...>

>>>>>>>>>Good point. I am usually pretty discerning of what I read.
And to answer
your question, lately I don't know what makes my 4 year old happy. I am
trying to connect with her right now. So many times I have asked
her,This is a work in progress right
now. I still breastfeed and sling my 2 year old, so I always worry I'm
not
spending enough time with my independent, sensitive little 4 year old
girl.
So far we have been having better days with all the yeses, though DH
thinks
I'm creating a monster.. That's another post.

--=-==-=-=-

She's unhappy all the time, and you're blaming the TV?

She probably doesn't *know* why she's "crying and whining most of the
day."

DON'T ask her : " WHY are you SO unhappy ALL the time. Why do you cry
and whine most of the
day??? What can I do to make you happy?" Just DON'T! She's four!

Maybe she needs different foods than she's getting? Maybe more protein?

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>Okay, so I see you are leading me somewhere with this, and I
will go ahead
and take the plunge.. The problem I have with this is that - I don't
think
children are just merely small adults. (Although I believe we have the
same
feelings that children do, which makes us better able to understand and
meet
their needs.). Yet adults can sometimes predict what can happen - forsee
things that children cannot see.

-=-=-=-

And sometimes adults are flippin' clueless. But they *think* they are
right and force that cluelessness onto their children.

Children---even very, very young children can often be wiser and
stronger than their own parents.

-==-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>I can predict that if the TV is on ALL DAY
that my 4 year old will be crying and whining for the most of the
afternoon
and evening, over stimulated, tired and upset.

-=-=-=-=-

This is the same child whose mom doesn't watch TV with her? And who is
fearful of her TV?

What message do you think you're sending to two small children?

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>Now- the reason could
possibly be because I don't watch the videos WITH her, as you mentioned
and
she is craving my cuddles and attention.

-=-=-=-=

Maybe.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>>>>But I am just not interested in
watching Jungle book for the 14th time with her. This is why I would
much
rather be playing with her than watching TV. Getting rid of videos is
more
a kick in the pants for ME- for me to spend more time with her rather
than
ME being on the computer all day.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So it's all about YOU?

Have a tea party on the floor while she watches TV. Pull out the Legos
while she watches. Cover the coffee table with paper and markers. Make
sugar cookies and cover them with icing and candies while you watch TV.
DO something while you both watch TV.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>That said, I DID have unlimited TV time
as a teen- the TV was always on when I was home.

-=-=-=-=-=-

And yet you're not glued to the TV now, are you? You're afraid of it.

-=-=-=-==-

>>>>>>Don't knock having time to do nothing. I'm pretty sure that
children NEED
time to do nothing. Genius can be created out of boredom.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I agree. Schooled children have NO time to do nothing.

But watching TV is a fine pasttime.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>> Very good point. She probably WAS ready to speak. as soon as I
turned off
the TV and was able to listen to her. LOL

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But you didn't have to turn off the TV to listen to her. You *chose*
NOT to listen to her until the TV was off.

-=-=-=-=-=-

By 'practicing' I mean using it- not watching TV.. The brain has been
studied while watching tv and while doing other things. The theory is
that
when a child is 'listening' to the TV, they are only using receptors
from
one (right was it?) side of the brain, whereas the thinking, discerning,
calculating, applying parts of the brain are not being used. They are
not
'thinking' or discerning (talking early childhood here)- everything that
comes in is pure truth to them. when a child is reading, or using the
computer, or playing outside, both sides of the brain are being used at
once. And the connectors between the two halves are being formed at
these
early ages- so when a child is spending 55 hours a week of watching TV,
that
is much less time for those connectors to do their thing, than a child
who
is using both sides of their brain most of the day, most of the time, by
playing, reading, riding their tricycle, talking to mom and dad, etc
etc..

-=-=-=-=-=-

Maybe. I have proof to the contrary.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>We are a part of more than a few playgroups and that day has
already came
and went.

-=-=-=-=-

It has not come and gone. It's hasn't come yet---not to the degree I'm
talking about. Yours are still very, very little.

-=-=-=-===-

>>>>>> I don't freak when they want those things- I freely let them have
the treats they want, as much cake as they want and I let them get their
stomachaches- they don't usually want it after that. (Both my girls
have
allergies to milk proteins)

-=-=-=-=-

Do you not help them with this? I mean, don't you suggest that they
might not feel so great afterwards? Or do you just let them get sick?
They need info. NOT nagging or I-told-you-sos, but information to help
them make those connections.

-==-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>But my kids like and crave natural foods ;)

-=-==-

Then you have nothing to worry about. It'll never be an issue for you.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>I buy organic healthy
and mostly vegan food to eat at home, and they like it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

So, no meat?

Maybe that's the problem. Maybe they lack protein. You really might
want to look into more high-protein foods for them if they are crying
and whiney a lot.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>> I just try to model
healthy eating. The cool thing is that most of my mommy friends buy
the
organic natural fruit loops and bring those in baggies to share. We
make
Oatmeal cookies, chocolate cake, and apple pie, chocolate shakes, and
its
all healthy and raw. I don't think they feel they are missing out.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Good, then it's not an issue you'll ever have to worry about.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>As for limiting the TV- I have not put any limits on videos right
now, I'm
don't think that creating a power struggle will do any good. I am just
trying to follow the advice of BEING interesting and having interesting
things in their reach, and keeping busy by going to interesting places
and
such. So far we have had an awesome day at the beach today, with lots
of
playing in the sand and water and seaweed. Days like this make me not
worry.

--=-=-=-=-

What if HALF your days look like that and the other half look like TV?
Kind of like schooled kids: they only get to watch TV when they aren't
in school, doing homework, at church, visiting grandma, or at camp.
Half the time.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>But I do overly worry about stuff most of the time, and what
other people
say about how we plan to homeschool- 'irresponsible parenting', etc etc.
And after having taught elementary school, I am big time still
de-schooling
myself.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

If you are going to worry about what other people think, unschooling is
probably not for you. Most "other" people will be "concerned" at best.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Therese Franklin <theresefranklin@...>

>>>>I sort of blame myself because I put them in front of the TV from
when they were
BABIES just so I could have a shower, and then later on, I would use it
as a
babysitter so I could have time for myself- and its still that way now.
I
NEVER watch WITH them. Although my dd yells, "MOM WATCH THIS!! WATCH
THIS!!" from time to time. And I look up and go WOW. And I see that
this
is part of the problem now.

-=-=-=-=-

Parental guilt.

-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>>>But here I am now, and I can't go back in time (although I still
think about
it for future babies), and I want to connect with my dd. I ask her to
play
games. no mom. I ask her to do stuff. no, I want to stay home and have
Jammie time- which basically means staying in her pajamas all day
watching
movies. I want to move on from this..

-=-=-=-=-

Isn't that kind of what you did/do?

Use the TV as a babysitter when she asked, "Play games? Do stuff?" Your
answer to *her* was, "No I want to take a shower and have "Me Time."

Maybe one day you'll ask her to look at some cool new thing you've
found and she'll look up and say, "WOW."

You may think I"m being snarky and mean, but I'm throwing your own
words right back at you.

You're whining about the lack of time they want to spend with you and
the amount of time they want to spend with the TV.

BE the change you want to see. Be interested in the TV and what they
like on TV. The more you do that, the more they'll want to be with you.
The more controlling you choose to be, the further away they'll move.

It's really your choice.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

If this is what you believe, kill the damned all-powerful TV.

No one here will stop you. I just disagree with you, and my children
are proof that you are wrong.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Therese Franklin <theresefranklin@...>


_____

There has been much research on this- and there is a BIG difference in
the
brain / brain activity when a child reads vs. watching tv.



Like I said before; when brains are measured during TV watching, only
receptors from one (right I think) side of the brain are being used,
whereas
the areas of the brain for thinking, discerning, calculating, applying
parts
of the brain are not being used. (Left brain activities) They are not
'thinking' or discerning- everything that comes in is pure truth to
them.
When a child is reading, or using the computer, or playing outside, both
sides of the brain are being used at once.



The connectors between the two halves of the brain are being formed at
these
early ages- so when a child is spending 55 hours a week of watching TV,
that
is much less time for those connectors to do their thing, than a child
who
is using both sides of their brain most of the day, most of the time, by
playing, reading, riding their tricycle, talking to mom and dad, etc
etc..



So, as parents we are to keep our children safe and healthy. I'm not
in the
habit of feeding my children junk- and they like the healthy organic
food I
give them. If early TV has been shown to be linked with neurological
delays
and irrevocable damage, then I think we should possibly consider not
having
TV around to watch for the wee ones... because if that is keeping our
children from future harm, then is it much different from feeding our
children healthy meals and keeping our children from harm by not letting
them cross the street themselves without holding hands?



Please understand, I am not talking about suddenly disallowing TV for
older
children- because I think that can have disastrous effects for the
parent/child relationship. I am definitely NOT a punitively minded
parent-
I believe gentle discipline and mindful parenting are key to a happy
relationship with children. And as other posts have mentioned,
relationships can be formed watching TV together, snuggling, and
discussing
what was watched.



My struggle is how to create meaningful non-tv experiences with my
children
once they have already been living a life full of tv.