Came from another list
Heather McDonald
This came from another list. Someone was trying to help someone with
self directed learning and this is what they wrote...
They said they inschool. But I some of this bothered me. What do you
all this of it?
Thank you for your time,
Heather
self directed learning
Our oldest is only 8, so I don't know what it's like to be where you
are. On the other hand, I have some approaches to 'learning' that you
may or may not
want to try:
*Asking questions.* A few times I've simply asked "what do you want
to learn more about / or do?". It's usually surprising what they
answer with. We can't read their minds, and somehow it doesn't occur
to us to ask this simple question often enough.
*Setting time limits.* Sometimes the limits are arbitrary, sometimes
not. These days it might be TV time that ends at a certain time, and
the sooner you finish eating, brushing teeth and getting into
pajamas, the longer you get to watch. Time limits can be used as an
incentive, to avoid having to push them into doing what they need to
do. Carrots instead of sticks, at least not sticks all the time :-|
*Empowerment.* I'll do my best to give them tools and
responsibilities that they can handle on their own. Anything from
giving them their own scissors and stapler, to their own 'garden
plot' in our yard somewhere. If they can 'own' it then they have more
power, and more of a reason to explore those areas to their own
liking.
*Explaining stuff.* This often requires me to be in a quiet room with
only one of the kids. Then I can explain detailed stuff like cell-
division, how stars are made, what happens to the mail to get if from
here to there, the theory of evolution, heavy-duty stuff like that.
If it catches their attention, I just keep going until they fall
asleep :-) I figure if I can get a big mental model inserted into
their heads, they now have a new reference system to hang other
thoughts on, or ask questions about.
*Talking about the future.* I always wonder what might happen in the
future, and I think kids do this to an even greater degree, since
they have so much more ahead of them. I'll start a conversation and
explore what might happen in the future, with them, with me, the
family, other friends etc. This also helps to deal with certain
difficult situations, like when we moved from California to
Washington. My oldest knows that she can be pen pals with her
friends that are still in California, so she has options to exercise
if she wants to.
*Earning things.* I try to incorporate this in various ways. Treats
are not free, and the more you 'do' the more you deserve to
be 'rewarded'. Our kids like to buy little toys at the store, and I
make them use their own money for that. This way, they actually care
about the toys, won't let them go to waste, and they also pick up
math skills since they need to know how much money to bring, what
they can afford, and always remembering that sales are added at the
cash register. We have various ways for the kids to earn money,
even having them make stuff and selling them to us. We basically have
a mini-economy going on.
*Handing out things.* Especially with my 8-year old, I try to print
out things from the computer that I think might interest her, and I
simply hand it to her. Some times she reads it, other times not. Some
times she'll ask me to read it to her. She is now accustomed to
getting 'weird stuff' from me, and never knows what to expect. I'm
not really sure what this is teaching her, but I'm thinking it's a
good idea anyway, to let her get information about random stuff from
time to time, and having to evaluate it herself.
*Posing hypothetical questions.* Sometimes I'll ask things like "What
would it be like to eat dinner *backwards*?, or what about
*sideways*?", or something like "What would we do if we ran out of
gas in the car right now?". I try to jog their minds a little from
time to time, to get them a new and different challenge.
*Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, but
it's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves. Instead of
yelling or nagging, it's easy and powerful to record their bad
behavior and then show it to them. It's objective and fair, but
certainly unpleasant to them, but so is their bad habits to us...
Hmm, those are the ones I could think of. We probably do other things
too, but I can't think of them right now...
self directed learning and this is what they wrote...
They said they inschool. But I some of this bothered me. What do you
all this of it?
Thank you for your time,
Heather
self directed learning
Our oldest is only 8, so I don't know what it's like to be where you
are. On the other hand, I have some approaches to 'learning' that you
may or may not
want to try:
*Asking questions.* A few times I've simply asked "what do you want
to learn more about / or do?". It's usually surprising what they
answer with. We can't read their minds, and somehow it doesn't occur
to us to ask this simple question often enough.
*Setting time limits.* Sometimes the limits are arbitrary, sometimes
not. These days it might be TV time that ends at a certain time, and
the sooner you finish eating, brushing teeth and getting into
pajamas, the longer you get to watch. Time limits can be used as an
incentive, to avoid having to push them into doing what they need to
do. Carrots instead of sticks, at least not sticks all the time :-|
*Empowerment.* I'll do my best to give them tools and
responsibilities that they can handle on their own. Anything from
giving them their own scissors and stapler, to their own 'garden
plot' in our yard somewhere. If they can 'own' it then they have more
power, and more of a reason to explore those areas to their own
liking.
*Explaining stuff.* This often requires me to be in a quiet room with
only one of the kids. Then I can explain detailed stuff like cell-
division, how stars are made, what happens to the mail to get if from
here to there, the theory of evolution, heavy-duty stuff like that.
If it catches their attention, I just keep going until they fall
asleep :-) I figure if I can get a big mental model inserted into
their heads, they now have a new reference system to hang other
thoughts on, or ask questions about.
*Talking about the future.* I always wonder what might happen in the
future, and I think kids do this to an even greater degree, since
they have so much more ahead of them. I'll start a conversation and
explore what might happen in the future, with them, with me, the
family, other friends etc. This also helps to deal with certain
difficult situations, like when we moved from California to
Washington. My oldest knows that she can be pen pals with her
friends that are still in California, so she has options to exercise
if she wants to.
*Earning things.* I try to incorporate this in various ways. Treats
are not free, and the more you 'do' the more you deserve to
be 'rewarded'. Our kids like to buy little toys at the store, and I
make them use their own money for that. This way, they actually care
about the toys, won't let them go to waste, and they also pick up
math skills since they need to know how much money to bring, what
they can afford, and always remembering that sales are added at the
cash register. We have various ways for the kids to earn money,
even having them make stuff and selling them to us. We basically have
a mini-economy going on.
*Handing out things.* Especially with my 8-year old, I try to print
out things from the computer that I think might interest her, and I
simply hand it to her. Some times she reads it, other times not. Some
times she'll ask me to read it to her. She is now accustomed to
getting 'weird stuff' from me, and never knows what to expect. I'm
not really sure what this is teaching her, but I'm thinking it's a
good idea anyway, to let her get information about random stuff from
time to time, and having to evaluate it herself.
*Posing hypothetical questions.* Sometimes I'll ask things like "What
would it be like to eat dinner *backwards*?, or what about
*sideways*?", or something like "What would we do if we ran out of
gas in the car right now?". I try to jog their minds a little from
time to time, to get them a new and different challenge.
*Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, but
it's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves. Instead of
yelling or nagging, it's easy and powerful to record their bad
behavior and then show it to them. It's objective and fair, but
certainly unpleasant to them, but so is their bad habits to us...
Hmm, those are the ones I could think of. We probably do other things
too, but I can't think of them right now...
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 17, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Heather McDonald wrote:
And an adversarial relationship with her kids. This is not someone
who is working with her kids, but herding them in the direction she
wants to go.
That sounds harsh, of course. She's not a Nazi! But she stuck on a
path that faces a goal and she feels she's found a way to
(relatively) gently herd her kids toward it.
For unschoolers, it's more helpful to face the kids. Be their partner
in where *they* want to go. In the process of helping them, we'll be
using our principles (be kind, be safe, and so on) to find ways for
them to get what they want (kindly and safely.) They'll pick up what
she feels she needs to guide them towards when we use our principles
as tool to help the child solve their real life problems.
to do, it suggests they're too wrapped up in what they're doing and
not paying enough attention to their "guests".
If it's "usually surprising", then it's a wake up call that someone
isn't spending enough time with her kids.
What about being with them, finding ways to make a task less yucky?
(This list is a good place to ask for ideas!)
in how this is worded.
Maybe it's "give them ... responsibilities" and "on their own".
Responsibilities aren't given, they're taken on voluntarily. When we
take on a responsibility, we get to choose to what standards we'll
keep it. As kids grow, they can see a bigger picture, and appreciate
that if they take on such and such a task that they'll disappoint
other people if they don't follow through and people will think less
of them. It's not a "fact" that they need handed to them, but an
understanding they grow into as they get older and mature enough to
grasp it. (And will happen at different ages for different kids.)
For unschoolers, it's much better to be there for them as a resource
as they take on responsibilities. By getting to know our kids we'll
get a better handle on when it's helpful to step in and help and when
it's helpful to step back and let them figure out what works and what
doesn't from what they're trying.
explain cell division to me! ;-)
She's still afraid that there's a set of "important information" and
that kids won't reach out and take in the "important information".
She doesn't trust that what kids will reach for is what is important
to who they are and who they're becoming. (If she did, she wouldn't
every think of cutting off a child's TV time!)
Rather than giving a lecture to a child, it will help unschooling to
expose them to a wide variety of stuff and steer more of what lights
their eyes toward them, and less of what dulls them. (Put the less
interesting to them stuff on the back burner and bring it out once in
a while. Kids interests change.)
much reason to give it much thought.
can I help them?" point of view rather than "This is something that's
good for them." The first is flexible and adaptable to the child's
needs and personality. The second is a solution imposed by an adult
who is certain she has a better grasp on things than the child.
I like to reward myself when I've done something unfun :-) And yeah,
she's right, Starbucks lattes aren't free! ;-)
The above has the feel of "I've got something you want. If you do
what I want, I'll give it to you."
How about "This can be frustrating. Let me help." or "I can it for
you though if we do it together, it will be easier and go faster."
money just felt like a hoop to jump through to bring home what she
wanted.
I can see where her thoughts are that if toys are flowing in like
water, they get treated like water, as something disposable. But did
it really happen and why? Rather than controlling the kids --
changing to kids to solve a problem she created -- it's better to
look at her own behavior that created the flow.
get what they want and living life than the lessons that can be
learned from an imposed solution.
to buying the 50th thing for a 4.5 yo." Lots of ideas that were more
about helping kids than teaching them the lessons mom wanted them to
learn.
It's not really an economy if kids are supplying what the parents
don't really want! Supply without the demand ;-) Though I bet an
entrepreneurial kid might like the incentive of figuring out what
people wanted and creating something to fill that need to earn extra
cash. (But not as a primary source of income.) But as a hoop to jump
through for my daughter to get what she wanted, *she* would have
thought it was bogus.
(One of the problems with made up situations that supposedly mimic
real life is that kids often learn some lesson other than the one the
parents want them to learn. With the above, it's likely kids will
learn the attitude of "I've got it and you can't have it until I make
you jump the right way." And they'll learn that having is power over
people, and not having is powerless and stinks.)
everything else she's written -- that there's an agenda behind it. If
it's purely for coolness and interest, then very helpful for
unschooling. If there's an agenda behind what she's printing out --
would she print out a list of ... I don't know, I've fallen behind
the times ;-) but Pokemon comes to mind. Or would she only print out
lists of dinosaurs because dinosaurs are "educational" and Pokemon
aren't.
It's a good thing to examine and ask yourself if you'd be as helpful
with something the child likes but you don't value as you would with
something you value.
And strewing involves anything and anything that a parent might think
a child would find interesting. Games, leaves, CDs, TV shows, gizmos,
jokes, new foods, different grocery store, ride down a street you've
never been on ...
I'm hoping when my husband hands me something he thinks I might find
cool, that he isn't thinking it's "good for me" to get information
and that he's providing opportunities for me to evaluate things for
myself. Ew.
For unschoolers, a better mindset is that it's fun for all of us to
share what we think someone else will find cool.
them: to jog their minds.
Why can't it just be fun?
There are much better ways to help kids than through something
unpleasant and humiliating.
Has deliberate, calculated humiliation *ever* not harmed a
relationship? Why would parents treat a child in a way they'd never
treat another adult they cared about?
Joyce
> They said they inschool. But I some of this bothered me. What do youIt sounds very controlling. Lots of controlling words and attitudes.
> all this of it?
And an adversarial relationship with her kids. This is not someone
who is working with her kids, but herding them in the direction she
wants to go.
That sounds harsh, of course. She's not a Nazi! But she stuck on a
path that faces a goal and she feels she's found a way to
(relatively) gently herd her kids toward it.
For unschoolers, it's more helpful to face the kids. Be their partner
in where *they* want to go. In the process of helping them, we'll be
using our principles (be kind, be safe, and so on) to find ways for
them to get what they want (kindly and safely.) They'll pick up what
she feels she needs to guide them towards when we use our principles
as tool to help the child solve their real life problems.
> *Asking questions.* A few times I've simply asked "what do you wantIf it's not occurring to someone to ask what someone else would like
> to learn more about / or do?". It's usually surprising what they
> answer with. We can't read their minds, and somehow it doesn't occur
> to us to ask this simple question often enough.
to do, it suggests they're too wrapped up in what they're doing and
not paying enough attention to their "guests".
If it's "usually surprising", then it's a wake up call that someone
isn't spending enough time with her kids.
> *Setting time limits.* Sometimes the limits are arbitrary, sometimesIs pushing or controlling TV time as an incentive the only two options?
> not. These days it might be TV time that ends at a certain time, and
> the sooner you finish eating, brushing teeth and getting into
> pajamas, the longer you get to watch. Time limits can be used as an
> incentive, to avoid having to push them into doing what they need to
> do. Carrots instead of sticks, at least not sticks all the time :-|
What about being with them, finding ways to make a task less yucky?
(This list is a good place to ask for ideas!)
> *Empowerment.* I'll do my best to give them tools andWhile I agree with helping kids feel empowered, there's something off
> responsibilities that they can handle on their own. Anything from
> giving them their own scissors and stapler, to their own 'garden
> plot' in our yard somewhere. If they can 'own' it then they have more
> power, and more of a reason to explore those areas to their own
> liking.
in how this is worded.
Maybe it's "give them ... responsibilities" and "on their own".
Responsibilities aren't given, they're taken on voluntarily. When we
take on a responsibility, we get to choose to what standards we'll
keep it. As kids grow, they can see a bigger picture, and appreciate
that if they take on such and such a task that they'll disappoint
other people if they don't follow through and people will think less
of them. It's not a "fact" that they need handed to them, but an
understanding they grow into as they get older and mature enough to
grasp it. (And will happen at different ages for different kids.)
For unschoolers, it's much better to be there for them as a resource
as they take on responsibilities. By getting to know our kids we'll
get a better handle on when it's helpful to step in and help and when
it's helpful to step back and let them figure out what works and what
doesn't from what they're trying.
> *Explaining stuff.* This often requires me to be in a quiet room withI *do not* want to be trapped alone in a room with someone while they
> only one of the kids. Then I can explain detailed stuff like cell-
> division, how stars are made, what happens to the mail to get if from
> here to there, the theory of evolution, heavy-duty stuff like that.
> If it catches their attention, I just keep going until they fall
> asleep :-) I figure if I can get a big mental model inserted into
> their heads, they now have a new reference system to hang other
> thoughts on, or ask questions about.
explain cell division to me! ;-)
She's still afraid that there's a set of "important information" and
that kids won't reach out and take in the "important information".
She doesn't trust that what kids will reach for is what is important
to who they are and who they're becoming. (If she did, she wouldn't
every think of cutting off a child's TV time!)
Rather than giving a lecture to a child, it will help unschooling to
expose them to a wide variety of stuff and steer more of what lights
their eyes toward them, and less of what dulls them. (Put the less
interesting to them stuff on the back burner and bring it out once in
a while. Kids interests change.)
> *Talking about the future.* I always wonder what might happen in theAdults would like to think so! When time feels endless, there isn't
> future, and I think kids do this to an even greater degree, since
> they have so much more ahead of them.
much reason to give it much thought.
> I'll start a conversation andThis is all good. But it's more helpful to approach it from a "How
> explore what might happen in the future, with them, with me, the
> family, other friends etc. This also helps to deal with certain
> difficult situations, like when we moved from California to
> Washington. My oldest knows that she can be pen pals with her
> friends that are still in California, so she has options to exercise
> if she wants to.
can I help them?" point of view rather than "This is something that's
good for them." The first is flexible and adaptable to the child's
needs and personality. The second is a solution imposed by an adult
who is certain she has a better grasp on things than the child.
> *Earning things.* I try to incorporate this in various ways. TreatsJust ick.
> are not free, and the more you 'do' the more you deserve to
> be 'rewarded'.
I like to reward myself when I've done something unfun :-) And yeah,
she's right, Starbucks lattes aren't free! ;-)
The above has the feel of "I've got something you want. If you do
what I want, I'll give it to you."
How about "This can be frustrating. Let me help." or "I can it for
you though if we do it together, it will be easier and go faster."
> Our kids like to buy little toys at the store, and I"Make" jumps out there.
> make them use their own money for that.
> This way, they actually careNot so sure about that! At a certain age, for my daughter, having the
> about the toys, won't let them go to waste,
money just felt like a hoop to jump through to bring home what she
wanted.
I can see where her thoughts are that if toys are flowing in like
water, they get treated like water, as something disposable. But did
it really happen and why? Rather than controlling the kids --
changing to kids to solve a problem she created -- it's better to
look at her own behavior that created the flow.
> and they also pick upFor unschoolers, it's more helpful to think in terms of helping them
> math skills since they need to know how much money to bring, what
> they can afford, and always remembering that sales are added at the
> cash register.
get what they want and living life than the lessons that can be
learned from an imposed solution.
> We have various ways for the kids to earn money,I liked the recent discussion here that came out of the "Saying 'No'
> even having them make stuff and selling them to us. We basically have
> a mini-economy going on.
to buying the 50th thing for a 4.5 yo." Lots of ideas that were more
about helping kids than teaching them the lessons mom wanted them to
learn.
It's not really an economy if kids are supplying what the parents
don't really want! Supply without the demand ;-) Though I bet an
entrepreneurial kid might like the incentive of figuring out what
people wanted and creating something to fill that need to earn extra
cash. (But not as a primary source of income.) But as a hoop to jump
through for my daughter to get what she wanted, *she* would have
thought it was bogus.
(One of the problems with made up situations that supposedly mimic
real life is that kids often learn some lesson other than the one the
parents want them to learn. With the above, it's likely kids will
learn the attitude of "I've got it and you can't have it until I make
you jump the right way." And they'll learn that having is power over
people, and not having is powerless and stinks.)
> *Handing out things.* Especially with my 8-year old, I try to printSounds like Sandra Dodd's strewing. But it feels like -- from
> out things from the computer that I think might interest her, and I
> simply hand it to her. Some times she reads it, other times not. Some
> times she'll ask me to read it to her.
everything else she's written -- that there's an agenda behind it. If
it's purely for coolness and interest, then very helpful for
unschooling. If there's an agenda behind what she's printing out --
would she print out a list of ... I don't know, I've fallen behind
the times ;-) but Pokemon comes to mind. Or would she only print out
lists of dinosaurs because dinosaurs are "educational" and Pokemon
aren't.
It's a good thing to examine and ask yourself if you'd be as helpful
with something the child likes but you don't value as you would with
something you value.
And strewing involves anything and anything that a parent might think
a child would find interesting. Games, leaves, CDs, TV shows, gizmos,
jokes, new foods, different grocery store, ride down a street you've
never been on ...
> She is now accustomed toNot helpful for unschoolers to think in terms of teaching.
> getting 'weird stuff' from me, and never knows what to expect. I'm
> not really sure what this is teaching her,
> but I'm thinking it's a"Have to" evaluate?
> good idea anyway, to let her get information about random stuff from
> time to time, and having to evaluate it herself.
I'm hoping when my husband hands me something he thinks I might find
cool, that he isn't thinking it's "good for me" to get information
and that he's providing opportunities for me to evaluate things for
myself. Ew.
For unschoolers, a better mindset is that it's fun for all of us to
share what we think someone else will find cool.
> *Posing hypothetical questions.* Sometimes I'll ask things like "WhatGreat questions. And yet she's doing it because she has a goal for
> would it be like to eat dinner *backwards*?, or what about
> *sideways*?", or something like "What would we do if we ran out of
> gas in the car right now?". I try to jog their minds a little from
> time to time, to get them a new and different challenge.
them: to jog their minds.
Why can't it just be fun?
> *Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, butOh, yuck. I do *not* want my husband video taping my bad habits!
> it's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
> gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves. Instead of
> yelling or nagging, it's easy and powerful to record their bad
> behavior and then show it to them. It's objective and fair, but
> certainly unpleasant to them, but so is their bad habits to us...
There are much better ways to help kids than through something
unpleasant and humiliating.
Has deliberate, calculated humiliation *ever* not harmed a
relationship? Why would parents treat a child in a way they'd never
treat another adult they cared about?
Joyce
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Has deliberate, calculated humiliation *ever* not harmed a
relationship? Why would parents treat a child in a way they'd never
treat another adult they cared about?
-=-=-=-
Because they can.
Because they have the power.
Because, if they did it to an adult, that adult might deck them, or
quit being friends with them, or file a police report. Or hire a lawyer!
Because it's good for the child.
Because it'll teach him a lesson.
Because that's the way it is in the big, bad world.
Because children don't know any better.
Because children *should* know better.
Because "I'm the parent."
Because that's how others treat *you*, so you'd better learn how to
deal with it when you're young.
Because children are sinful.
Because the child (OR the parent!) has---excuse me: "is"---ADD.
Because "he just doesn't listen."
Because "nice" doesn't work.
Because how will they ever learn?
Because it was done to them, so now it's *their* turn.
Because it was done to them, and they turned out "just fine."
Because...what would others think?
Because "I said so."
Because "I love you!"
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Has deliberate, calculated humiliation *ever* not harmed a
relationship? Why would parents treat a child in a way they'd never
treat another adult they cared about?
-=-=-=-
Because they can.
Because they have the power.
Because, if they did it to an adult, that adult might deck them, or
quit being friends with them, or file a police report. Or hire a lawyer!
Because it's good for the child.
Because it'll teach him a lesson.
Because that's the way it is in the big, bad world.
Because children don't know any better.
Because children *should* know better.
Because "I'm the parent."
Because that's how others treat *you*, so you'd better learn how to
deal with it when you're young.
Because children are sinful.
Because the child (OR the parent!) has---excuse me: "is"---ADD.
Because "he just doesn't listen."
Because "nice" doesn't work.
Because how will they ever learn?
Because it was done to them, so now it's *their* turn.
Because it was done to them, and they turned out "just fine."
Because...what would others think?
Because "I said so."
Because "I love you!"
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Ren Allen
~~
Has deliberate, calculated humiliation *ever* not harmed a
relationship? Why would parents treat a child in a way they'd never
treat another adult they cared about?~~
Exactly!
Just the fact that she decided to video tape "bad behavior" makes me
cringe. Why choose to see it as "bad" in the first place? That alone
is a huge stumbling block in helping your kids.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Has deliberate, calculated humiliation *ever* not harmed a
relationship? Why would parents treat a child in a way they'd never
treat another adult they cared about?~~
Exactly!
Just the fact that she decided to video tape "bad behavior" makes me
cringe. Why choose to see it as "bad" in the first place? That alone
is a huge stumbling block in helping your kids.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Jodi Bezzola
To me? Most of it?? Yuck!
Jodi
Jodi
--- On Tue, 6/17/08, Heather McDonald <heatherrea_mcdonald@...> wrote:
From: Heather McDonald <heatherrea_mcdonald@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Came from another list
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008, 4:40 PM
This came from another list. Someone was trying to help someone with
self directed learning and this is what they wrote...
They said they inschool. But I some of this bothered me. What do you
all this of it?
Thank you for your time,
Heather
self directed learning
Our oldest is only 8, so I don't know what it's like to be where you
are. On the other hand, I have some approaches to 'learning' that you
may or may not
want to try:
*Asking questions.* A few times I've simply asked "what do you want
to learn more about / or do?". It's usually surprising what they
answer with. We can't read their minds, and somehow it doesn't occur
to us to ask this simple question often enough.
*Setting time limits.* Sometimes the limits are arbitrary, sometimes
not. These days it might be TV time that ends at a certain time, and
the sooner you finish eating, brushing teeth and getting into
pajamas, the longer you get to watch. Time limits can be used as an
incentive, to avoid having to push them into doing what they need to
do. Carrots instead of sticks, at least not sticks all the time :-|
*Empowerment. * I'll do my best to give them tools and
responsibilities that they can handle on their own. Anything from
giving them their own scissors and stapler, to their own 'garden
plot' in our yard somewhere. If they can 'own' it then they have more
power, and more of a reason to explore those areas to their own
liking.
*Explaining stuff.* This often requires me to be in a quiet room with
only one of the kids. Then I can explain detailed stuff like cell-
division, how stars are made, what happens to the mail to get if from
here to there, the theory of evolution, heavy-duty stuff like that.
If it catches their attention, I just keep going until they fall
asleep :-) I figure if I can get a big mental model inserted into
their heads, they now have a new reference system to hang other
thoughts on, or ask questions about.
*Talking about the future.* I always wonder what might happen in the
future, and I think kids do this to an even greater degree, since
they have so much more ahead of them. I'll start a conversation and
explore what might happen in the future, with them, with me, the
family, other friends etc. This also helps to deal with certain
difficult situations, like when we moved from California to
Washington. My oldest knows that she can be pen pals with her
friends that are still in California, so she has options to exercise
if she wants to.
*Earning things.* I try to incorporate this in various ways. Treats
are not free, and the more you 'do' the more you deserve to
be 'rewarded'. Our kids like to buy little toys at the store, and I
make them use their own money for that. This way, they actually care
about the toys, won't let them go to waste, and they also pick up
math skills since they need to know how much money to bring, what
they can afford, and always remembering that sales are added at the
cash register. We have various ways for the kids to earn money,
even having them make stuff and selling them to us. We basically have
a mini-economy going on.
*Handing out things.* Especially with my 8-year old, I try to print
out things from the computer that I think might interest her, and I
simply hand it to her. Some times she reads it, other times not. Some
times she'll ask me to read it to her. She is now accustomed to
getting 'weird stuff' from me, and never knows what to expect. I'm
not really sure what this is teaching her, but I'm thinking it's a
good idea anyway, to let her get information about random stuff from
time to time, and having to evaluate it herself.
*Posing hypothetical questions.* Sometimes I'll ask things like "What
would it be like to eat dinner *backwards*? , or what about
*sideways*?" , or something like "What would we do if we ran out of
gas in the car right now?". I try to jog their minds a little from
time to time, to get them a new and different challenge.
*Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, but
it's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves. Instead of
yelling or nagging, it's easy and powerful to record their bad
behavior and then show it to them. It's objective and fair, but
certainly unpleasant to them, but so is their bad habits to us...
Hmm, those are the ones I could think of. We probably do other things
too, but I can't think of them right now...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Therese Franklin
>>*Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, butit's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves.
The whole video tapping thing is just nasty. I mean, how would SHE like to
be videotaped picking her nose or having her faults exposed and picked
apart. That just seems wrong- she is picking them apart, they 'are' and
then scolding them and making them feel bad for it. This is a form of
shaming. and just sad.
Therese
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
I'll just jump in here... "hi" if nobody knows who I am, as I never post
here... I'm Jenny from Ptld, OR area.
because 8 yr olds grow into teens with their own ideas pretty fast!
kids are pretty good at letting me know when they want more of
something, but it isn't about garnering facts or information, it's about
idea sharing and all the interesting things that are out there in the
world.
time"? Sometimes she uses sticks?
the world on their own terms, these things will happen regardless. My
kids feel ownership of our home. They make it theirs in lots of ways,
it's not mine to be given to them, it's ours to share and use together.
interrupt and tell me to shut it, unless of course they specifically
asked for that info!
kid is really really young and maybe it would be better to focus on new
friends that live nearby. Do little kids even have a concept of the
future the way adults do? In their own kid like fashion it's more about
trying things on and imagining, not actually considering "BEing" that
way in the future that to them is next week or tomorrow.
What makes a kid deserving of something? The parent's idea of what is
good? Kids really don't think that way. They don't make that
connection, even if a parent enforces it, it's still more about jumping
through hoops. The whole consumerist set up in this is a little ill
making. My kids who are given to freely don't always want something
from the store, nor do they always use their own money, but are often
insistent on it. This kind of thought about "rewards" makes kids feel
needy for things, especially if they've "earned" it. They are basically
training their kids to buy things at every chance they get. Ouch!
Probably not the intended outcome, but an inevitable one anyway.
better spend my time actually playing with my kids and hanging out with
them and doing and exploring what they are already into, and if that
leads to questions or the need for more info or such, THEN I get it for
them if they haven't done so already!
viewing the world in a questioning way already.
fast!
here... I'm Jenny from Ptld, OR area.
> Our oldest is only 8, so I don't know what it's like to be where youThe oldest is only 8, so hopefully the parent gets better faster,
> are. On the other hand, I have some approaches to 'learning' that you
> may or may not
> want to try:
because 8 yr olds grow into teens with their own ideas pretty fast!
> *Asking questions.* A few times I've simply asked "what do you wantIt certainly doesn't occur to me to do this, it feels contrived. My
> to learn more about / or do?". It's usually surprising what they
> answer with. We can't read their minds, and somehow it doesn't occur
> to us to ask this simple question often enough.
kids are pretty good at letting me know when they want more of
something, but it isn't about garnering facts or information, it's about
idea sharing and all the interesting things that are out there in the
world.
> *Setting time limits.* Sometimes the limits are arbitrary, sometimesThat is plain mean. What does that mean "at least not sticks all the
> not. These days it might be TV time that ends at a certain time, and
> the sooner you finish eating, brushing teeth and getting into
> pajamas, the longer you get to watch. Time limits can be used as an
> incentive, to avoid having to push them into doing what they need to
> do. Carrots instead of sticks, at least not sticks all the time :-|
time"? Sometimes she uses sticks?
> *Empowerment.* I'll do my best to give them tools andIn an environment where kids are allowed to be who they are and explore
> responsibilities that they can handle on their own. Anything from
> giving them their own scissors and stapler, to their own 'garden
> plot' in our yard somewhere. If they can 'own' it then they have more
> power, and more of a reason to explore those areas to their own
> liking.
the world on their own terms, these things will happen regardless. My
kids feel ownership of our home. They make it theirs in lots of ways,
it's not mine to be given to them, it's ours to share and use together.
> *Explaining stuff.* This often requires me to be in a quiet room withOk, wow! I think either of my kids (14 and 6) would be likely to
> only one of the kids. Then I can explain detailed stuff like cell-
> division, how stars are made, what happens to the mail to get if from
> here to there, the theory of evolution, heavy-duty stuff like that.
> If it catches their attention, I just keep going until they fall
> asleep :-) I figure if I can get a big mental model inserted into
> their heads, they now have a new reference system to hang other
> thoughts on, or ask questions about.
interrupt and tell me to shut it, unless of course they specifically
asked for that info!
> *Talking about the future.* I always wonder what might happen in theOr she can email them. Penpals is a little outdated, but perhaps the
> future, and I think kids do this to an even greater degree, since
> they have so much more ahead of them. I'll start a conversation and
> explore what might happen in the future, with them, with me, the
> family, other friends etc. This also helps to deal with certain
> difficult situations, like when we moved from California to
> Washington. My oldest knows that she can be pen pals with her
> friends that are still in California, so she has options to exercise
> if she wants to.
kid is really really young and maybe it would be better to focus on new
friends that live nearby. Do little kids even have a concept of the
future the way adults do? In their own kid like fashion it's more about
trying things on and imagining, not actually considering "BEing" that
way in the future that to them is next week or tomorrow.
> *Earning things.* I try to incorporate this in various ways. TreatsThere are so many things wrong with those scenarios, it's hard to start.
> are not free, and the more you 'do' the more you deserve to
> be 'rewarded'. Our kids like to buy little toys at the store, and I
> make them use their own money for that. This way, they actually care
> about the toys, won't let them go to waste, and they also pick up
> math skills since they need to know how much money to bring, what
> they can afford, and always remembering that sales are added at the
> cash register. We have various ways for the kids to earn money,
> even having them make stuff and selling them to us. We basically have
> a mini-economy going on.
What makes a kid deserving of something? The parent's idea of what is
good? Kids really don't think that way. They don't make that
connection, even if a parent enforces it, it's still more about jumping
through hoops. The whole consumerist set up in this is a little ill
making. My kids who are given to freely don't always want something
from the store, nor do they always use their own money, but are often
insistent on it. This kind of thought about "rewards" makes kids feel
needy for things, especially if they've "earned" it. They are basically
training their kids to buy things at every chance they get. Ouch!
Probably not the intended outcome, but an inevitable one anyway.
> *Handing out things.* Especially with my 8-year old, I try to printIn my house that would be a waste of time and paper! I think I could
> out things from the computer that I think might interest her, and I
> simply hand it to her. Some times she reads it, other times not. Some
> times she'll ask me to read it to her. She is now accustomed to
> getting 'weird stuff' from me, and never knows what to expect. I'm
> not really sure what this is teaching her, but I'm thinking it's a
> good idea anyway, to let her get information about random stuff from
> time to time, and having to evaluate it herself.
better spend my time actually playing with my kids and hanging out with
them and doing and exploring what they are already into, and if that
leads to questions or the need for more info or such, THEN I get it for
them if they haven't done so already!
> *Posing hypothetical questions.* Sometimes I'll ask things like "WhatThat is annoying, and kind of belittling to a kid's natural way of
> would it be like to eat dinner *backwards*?, or what about
> *sideways*?", or something like "What would we do if we ran out of
> gas in the car right now?". I try to jog their minds a little from
> time to time, to get them a new and different challenge.
viewing the world in a questioning way already.
> *Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, butWatch out mom and dad, kids become really adapt at technology really
> it's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
> gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves. Instead of
> yelling or nagging, it's easy and powerful to record their bad
> behavior and then show it to them. It's objective and fair, but
> certainly unpleasant to them, but so is their bad habits to us...
fast!
Heather McDonald
Thank you for the replys!
Yuck is what I thought too. But I don't feel like I can say anything to
this person.
I ment to type unschool.
And this was actually a Father. Funny enough he says he is working on a
program to help unschoolers/homeschoolers.
Heather
Yuck is what I thought too. But I don't feel like I can say anything to
this person.
I ment to type unschool.
And this was actually a Father. Funny enough he says he is working on a
program to help unschoolers/homeschoolers.
Heather
Jenny C
I'll just jump in here... "hi" if nobody knows who I am, as I never post
here... I'm Jenny from Ptld, OR area.
because 8 yr olds grow into teens with their own ideas pretty fast!
kids are pretty good at letting me know when they want more of
something, but it isn't about garnering facts or information, it's about
idea sharing and all the interesting things that are out there in the
world.
time"? Sometimes she uses sticks?
the world on their own terms, these things will happen regardless. My
kids feel ownership of our home. They make it theirs in lots of ways,
it's not mine to be given to them, it's ours to share and use together.
interrupt and tell me to shut it, unless of course they specifically
asked for that info!
kid is really really young and maybe it would be better to focus on new
friends that live nearby. Do little kids even have a concept of the
future the way adults do? In their own kid like fashion it's more about
trying things on and imagining, not actually considering "BEing" that
way in the future that to them is next week or tomorrow.
What makes a kid deserving of something? The parent's idea of what is
good? Kids really don't think that way. They don't make that
connection, even if a parent enforces it, it's still more about jumping
through hoops. The whole consumerist set up in this is a little ill
making. My kids who are given to freely don't always want something
from the store, nor do they always use their own money, but are often
insistent on it. This kind of thought about "rewards" makes kids feel
needy for things, especially if they've "earned" it. They are basically
training their kids to buy things at every chance they get. Ouch!
Probably not the intended outcome, but an inevitable one anyway.
better spend my time actually playing with my kids and hanging out with
them and doing and exploring what they are already into, and if that
leads to questions or the need for more info or such, THEN I get it for
them if they haven't done so already!
viewing the world in a questioning way already.
fast!
here... I'm Jenny from Ptld, OR area.
> Our oldest is only 8, so I don't know what it's like to be where youThe oldest is only 8, so hopefully the parent gets better faster,
> are. On the other hand, I have some approaches to 'learning' that you
> may or may not
> want to try:
because 8 yr olds grow into teens with their own ideas pretty fast!
> *Asking questions.* A few times I've simply asked "what do you wantIt certainly doesn't occur to me to do this, it feels contrived. My
> to learn more about / or do?". It's usually surprising what they
> answer with. We can't read their minds, and somehow it doesn't occur
> to us to ask this simple question often enough.
kids are pretty good at letting me know when they want more of
something, but it isn't about garnering facts or information, it's about
idea sharing and all the interesting things that are out there in the
world.
> *Setting time limits.* Sometimes the limits are arbitrary, sometimesThat is plain mean. What does that mean "at least not sticks all the
> not. These days it might be TV time that ends at a certain time, and
> the sooner you finish eating, brushing teeth and getting into
> pajamas, the longer you get to watch. Time limits can be used as an
> incentive, to avoid having to push them into doing what they need to
> do. Carrots instead of sticks, at least not sticks all the time :-|
time"? Sometimes she uses sticks?
> *Empowerment.* I'll do my best to give them tools andIn an environment where kids are allowed to be who they are and explore
> responsibilities that they can handle on their own. Anything from
> giving them their own scissors and stapler, to their own 'garden
> plot' in our yard somewhere. If they can 'own' it then they have more
> power, and more of a reason to explore those areas to their own
> liking.
the world on their own terms, these things will happen regardless. My
kids feel ownership of our home. They make it theirs in lots of ways,
it's not mine to be given to them, it's ours to share and use together.
> *Explaining stuff.* This often requires me to be in a quiet room withOk, wow! I think either of my kids (14 and 6) would be likely to
> only one of the kids. Then I can explain detailed stuff like cell-
> division, how stars are made, what happens to the mail to get if from
> here to there, the theory of evolution, heavy-duty stuff like that.
> If it catches their attention, I just keep going until they fall
> asleep :-) I figure if I can get a big mental model inserted into
> their heads, they now have a new reference system to hang other
> thoughts on, or ask questions about.
interrupt and tell me to shut it, unless of course they specifically
asked for that info!
> *Talking about the future.* I always wonder what might happen in theOr she can email them. Penpals is a little outdated, but perhaps the
> future, and I think kids do this to an even greater degree, since
> they have so much more ahead of them. I'll start a conversation and
> explore what might happen in the future, with them, with me, the
> family, other friends etc. This also helps to deal with certain
> difficult situations, like when we moved from California to
> Washington. My oldest knows that she can be pen pals with her
> friends that are still in California, so she has options to exercise
> if she wants to.
kid is really really young and maybe it would be better to focus on new
friends that live nearby. Do little kids even have a concept of the
future the way adults do? In their own kid like fashion it's more about
trying things on and imagining, not actually considering "BEing" that
way in the future that to them is next week or tomorrow.
> *Earning things.* I try to incorporate this in various ways. TreatsThere are so many things wrong with those scenarios, it's hard to start.
> are not free, and the more you 'do' the more you deserve to
> be 'rewarded'. Our kids like to buy little toys at the store, and I
> make them use their own money for that. This way, they actually care
> about the toys, won't let them go to waste, and they also pick up
> math skills since they need to know how much money to bring, what
> they can afford, and always remembering that sales are added at the
> cash register. We have various ways for the kids to earn money,
> even having them make stuff and selling them to us. We basically have
> a mini-economy going on.
What makes a kid deserving of something? The parent's idea of what is
good? Kids really don't think that way. They don't make that
connection, even if a parent enforces it, it's still more about jumping
through hoops. The whole consumerist set up in this is a little ill
making. My kids who are given to freely don't always want something
from the store, nor do they always use their own money, but are often
insistent on it. This kind of thought about "rewards" makes kids feel
needy for things, especially if they've "earned" it. They are basically
training their kids to buy things at every chance they get. Ouch!
Probably not the intended outcome, but an inevitable one anyway.
> *Handing out things.* Especially with my 8-year old, I try to printIn my house that would be a waste of time and paper! I think I could
> out things from the computer that I think might interest her, and I
> simply hand it to her. Some times she reads it, other times not. Some
> times she'll ask me to read it to her. She is now accustomed to
> getting 'weird stuff' from me, and never knows what to expect. I'm
> not really sure what this is teaching her, but I'm thinking it's a
> good idea anyway, to let her get information about random stuff from
> time to time, and having to evaluate it herself.
better spend my time actually playing with my kids and hanging out with
them and doing and exploring what they are already into, and if that
leads to questions or the need for more info or such, THEN I get it for
them if they haven't done so already!
> *Posing hypothetical questions.* Sometimes I'll ask things like "WhatThat is annoying, and kind of belittling to a kid's natural way of
> would it be like to eat dinner *backwards*?, or what about
> *sideways*?", or something like "What would we do if we ran out of
> gas in the car right now?". I try to jog their minds a little from
> time to time, to get them a new and different challenge.
viewing the world in a questioning way already.
> *Video taping them, and showing them.* I don't do this often, butWatch out mom and dad, kids become really adapt at technology really
> it's been quite effective. I'll especially do this when one of them
> gets into a bad habit and won't admit to it themselves. Instead of
> yelling or nagging, it's easy and powerful to record their bad
> behavior and then show it to them. It's objective and fair, but
> certainly unpleasant to them, but so is their bad habits to us...
fast!