Therese

Hi everyone,

My name is Therese, gentle Christian mama to my two girls, ages 2 and
4. I used to teach 2nd grade and then 1st grade for a few years before
my girls were born. I knew after my experiences teaching that
homeschooling would be ideal, and I don't really know if I could ever
go back to 'teaching' in the way the schools would have me teach. Scary
scary.
Anyhow, I have done lots and lots of reading, and I agree with
unschooling and can see how it will benefit my children. As a
Christian, I fully believe that God made them with their own unique
gifts that can be realized when given the freedom to explore them. The
bible teaches we are free through Christ, and I fully want them to
experience what God has in store for them. I didn't want to get into a
religious discussion, but just wanted to let you know where I come from
here.

My husband however has some major issues about the term 'unschooling',
but I'm working on him. He doesn't want us to ever label ourselves
as 'unschoolers'. (Well he doesn't want me to label myself as VEGAN
either, but thats what I am LOL) mostly because of flack from our
families- who are just coming to terms with our homeschooling as it is,
as well as our AP parenting philosophy (not sending kids to sunday
school, etc) and allowing our children to sleep next to us, etc. He
agreed with me that grades and testing are useless tools made for the
masses, not our children, (yay!) and he doesn't think a boxed
curriculum would be beneficial when there is so much to learn in
everyday life.

But he still wants our children to be 'disciplined' as far as behavior
goes, and wants me to set up a predictable schedule for the girls and
myself. I don't think that a routine would be bad at all, but there is
no way I can be very regimented... I am thinking of printing
a 'schedule' and put that on the fridge to pacify him. LOL
He also wants to make sure she 'knows' things that the schools are
teaching- and he thinks that some things have to be learned whether
they like it or not... not sure how to respond to that.

Also, our 4 year old is very much in her own fantasy world- which I am
reminding him is a good thing- but he worries about her because every
moment he is home, she is running on all fours as a 'pony' or 'puppy'
or 'rat' (thanks to ratatoulle) and she even does this in public and he
gets embarassed. She also has to sing or shout or ramble on and on
CONSTANTLY and he worries that there is something wrong with that. LOL

So- when you are home and able to read SO much more than your husband-
how do you deal with him on the issues?

Thanks,
Therese in CA
Mama to my widdle girls

Debra Rossing

> So- when you are home and able to read SO much more than your husband-
how do you deal with him on the issues?
Gently. Extend the same respect and understanding to him that you do to
the kids. The presumption that he's doing the best he can with what he
knows the same way you presume the kids are doing the best they can in a
given situation with the tools they have at hand. You model behaviors,
discuss things non-judgmentally, etc. If he's willing to read stuff, get
short bits of articles, posts, etc that he can read quickly (bathroom
reading LOL). Something like Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child is good
because it's set up in short Q&A style bits.

For many years, we didn't use the term 'unschooling' with family
members. Over time, we made homeschooling and unschooling
interchangeable in our mentions of it. Now we just use unschooling. BUT
they've also had time to see that whatever it is we're doing is really
great for DS (he's 10 now, we began unschooling when he was born, he's
never been schooled institutionally or at home).

As far as "disciplined", y'all might want to consider what that term
actually means. It doesn't mean "punished". A disciple is one who
follows another or who is brought alongside one for training or
instruction. Jesus didn't "punish" the apostles and other followers when
they just didn't get it (or did really stupid stuff). He spent more time
instructing them. *HE* went to "time out" of sorts when he needed it -
going away alone to pray when things got overwhelming - rather than
sending them away to 'think about what they did'. KWIM?

I might want to make some private time sans little ears to sit down in a
relaxed and calm manner and find out what it is he exactly thinks "has
to be learned" and why. No rebuttal, just listen to him. Ask questions
for clarification as needed. Ask Why? A lot. Use the time honored
rabbinic tradition of answering questions with questions if he flips the
questions around on you.

Your household *already* has a routine of some form - it just might not
LOOK like the kind of thing he grew up with. Life itself has patterns
and rhythms - that's the way it was *created* it be.

You might also want to find ways to communicate with him about what
happens when he's NOT there. What does she do for the "rest" of the time
if all he sees is when she's being a pony or a puppy or a rodent? He has
no idea. Some people set up private password protected blogs so they can
post pictures and text for family to see and that is sometimes helpful.
We've got cell phones with camera ability and multimedia/texting
capabilities so that when DH (the at home parent) and DS (10) are doing
fun stuff, they can send me pictures to my cell phone or to my email
here at work.

Deb


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

juillet727

Hi there--
first off, I just wanted to say I really liked Deb's response--so well
put! I really agree with all that was said.

And then I just wanted to say, I don't use the term unschooling with
my extended family (I come from a long line of educators). And I don't
discuss the philosophy of unschooling with anyone who isn't doing it
themselves. I'll talk about what adventures we're having or what my
son is involved in right now. That's the stuff they can relate to. And
they like hearing about our lives. At times I've gotten self conscious
in some situations where I'm clearly doing my parenting differently
then how I was raised, but..oh well. I had to get over that.

I had to not use the term unschooling with my partner, too. He didn't
want the label. And that's ok. When we do talk about various family
stuff--respect for each other, guidance (discipline), what we want our
lives to be like with our boy, I still don't use the word unschooling
because I'm not trying to fit into a philosophy or label our family;
I'm simply trying to be happy and have a happy family.
just my $.02

Anyway, gotta run.
~~Juillet


--- In [email protected], "Therese"
<theresefranklin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> My name is Therese, gentle Christian mama to my two girls, ages 2 and
> 4. I used to teach 2nd grade and then 1st grade for a few years before
> my girls were born. I knew after my experiences teaching that
> homeschooling would be ideal, and I don't really know if I could ever
> go back to 'teaching' in the way the schools would have me teach. Scary
> scary.
> Anyhow, I have done lots and lots of reading, and I agree with
> unschooling and can see how it will benefit my children. As a
> Christian, I fully believe that God made them with their own unique
> gifts that can be realized when given the freedom to explore them. The
> bible teaches we are free through Christ, and I fully want them to
> experience what God has in store for them. I didn't want to get into a
> religious discussion, but just wanted to let you know where I come from
> here.
>
> My husband however has some major issues about the term 'unschooling',
> but I'm working on him. He doesn't want us to ever label ourselves
> as 'unschoolers'. (Well he doesn't want me to label myself as VEGAN
> either, but thats what I am LOL) mostly because of flack from our
> families- who are just coming to terms with our homeschooling as it is,
> as well as our AP parenting philosophy (not sending kids to sunday
> school, etc) and allowing our children to sleep next to us, etc. He
> agreed with me that grades and testing are useless tools made for the
> masses, not our children, (yay!) and he doesn't think a boxed
> curriculum would be beneficial when there is so much to learn in
> everyday life.
>
> But he still wants our children to be 'disciplined' as far as behavior
> goes, and wants me to set up a predictable schedule for the girls and
> myself. I don't think that a routine would be bad at all, but there is
> no way I can be very regimented... I am thinking of printing
> a 'schedule' and put that on the fridge to pacify him. LOL
> He also wants to make sure she 'knows' things that the schools are
> teaching- and he thinks that some things have to be learned whether
> they like it or not... not sure how to respond to that.
>
> Also, our 4 year old is very much in her own fantasy world- which I am
> reminding him is a good thing- but he worries about her because every
> moment he is home, she is running on all fours as a 'pony' or 'puppy'
> or 'rat' (thanks to ratatoulle) and she even does this in public and he
> gets embarassed. She also has to sing or shout or ramble on and on
> CONSTANTLY and he worries that there is something wrong with that. LOL
>
> So- when you are home and able to read SO much more than your husband-
> how do you deal with him on the issues?
>
> Thanks,
> Therese in CA
> Mama to my widdle girls
>

Therese

HI Deb, thanks for responding, I agree 100% with everything you've said
:)

--- In [email protected], "Debra Rossing"
<debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> > So- when you are home and able to read SO much more than your
husband-
> how do you deal with him on the issues?
> Gently. Extend the same respect and understanding to him that you do
to
> the kids. The presumption that he's doing the best he can with what he
> knows the same way you presume the kids are doing the best they can in
a
> given situation with the tools they have at hand. You model behaviors,
> discuss things non-judgmentally, etc. If he's willing to read stuff,
get
> short bits of articles, posts, etc that he can read quickly (bathroom
> reading LOL). Something like Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child is
good
> because it's set up in short Q&A style bits.

I agree, I send him articles here and there, and I read to him aloud
when he's home... I did the same thing when I wanted a homebirth and he
was unsure at first. I gave him tons of information in bits and pieces.
Thank you for the book suggestion- I will check that on out!

> For many years, we didn't use the term 'unschooling' with family
> members. Over time, we made homeschooling and unschooling
> interchangeable in our mentions of it. Now we just use unschooling.
BUT
> they've also had time to see that whatever it is we're doing is really
> great for DS (he's 10 now, we began unschooling when he was born, he's
> never been schooled institutionally or at home).

Sounds like the little by little approach worked with your family as
well.
>
> As far as "disciplined", y'all might want to consider what that term
> actually means. It doesn't mean "punished". A disciple is one who
> follows another or who is brought alongside one for training or
> instruction. Jesus didn't "punish" the apostles and other followers
when
> they just didn't get it (or did really stupid stuff). He spent more
time
> instructing them. *HE* went to "time out" of sorts when he needed it -
> going away alone to pray when things got overwhelming - rather than
> sending them away to 'think about what they did'. KWIM?

I completely agree with this. In fact, I have learned a lot about
Jesus's discipleship approach from the ladies on
www.gentlechristianmothers.com <http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com>
- and GBD (Graced-Based Discipline <http://aolff.com/> ) where
discipline is as you described, a relationship, not one 'Lording over'
the other. Jesus led by example, with love and ofcourse, GRACE! He
taught through relationships- and wants us to be in relationship with
Him. He doesn't punish... He has already taken the punishment for all
our sins, so why would we punish our children?....

I could go on... but what I meant when I said that my husband wants our
children to be 'disciplined' is really that he wants them to be quiet
and not screaming while running around like animals when we are at other
people's houses. LOL. I try to tell him that her imagination is a good
thing and that they are still small, but he still can't shake the idea
that when he askes our 4 year old to do something, he expects her to do
it, instead of just laughing in his face. In the mean time, I am
learning new tools in parenting, and i try to show him things here and
there. But he gets frustrated. He agrees with GBD and gentle parenting
- thankfully! And he would never spank her or anything like that.
Although he has used 'time out' unsuccessfully before. He just throws
his hands up and looks to me as to what to do, and I usually sit with
dd1 and talk to her quietly and get her interested in something else...
sometimes that works.
>
> I might want to make some private time sans little ears to sit down in
a
> relaxed and calm manner and find out what it is he exactly thinks "has
> to be learned" and why. No rebuttal, just listen to him. Ask questions
> for clarification as needed. Ask Why? A lot. Use the time honored
> rabbinic tradition of answering questions with questions if he flips
the
> questions around on you. We definetely need to do this.

> Your household *already* has a routine of some form - it just might
not
> LOOK like the kind of thing he grew up with. Life itself has patterns
> and rhythms - that's the way it was *created* it be.

Very true! I think I may fill in a generic routine to put on the
fridge *for him* mostly.
>
> You might also want to find ways to communicate with him about what
> happens when he's NOT there. What does she do for the "rest" of the
time
> if all he sees is when she's being a pony or a puppy or a rodent? He
has
> no idea. Some people set up private password protected blogs so they
can
> post pictures and text for family to see and that is sometimes
helpful.
> We've got cell phones with camera ability and multimedia/texting
> capabilities so that when DH (the at home parent) and DS (10) are
doing
> fun stuff, they can send me pictures to my cell phone or to my email
> here at work.
>
This is a great idea, and I have a blog set up already for this purpose.
But so far it hasn't materialized too much- i need to remember to take
more pictures of what we do during the day. This was actually HIS idea,
since he felt I may need some accountablility since I talked him out of
doing a charter and an ISP.

I think he will come around.. I just need to be gentle and give him time
like you said. Thank you this has been very helpful.

Blessings,

Therese ~ Gentle Christian mama to my widdle girls ~ dd1 (4.5) dd2 (born
@ home 2 years ago)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese

This is how my DH feels- he doesn't want us to label ourselves or our
children, or try to fit into any sort of label. I however, like being
'a part' of something bigger and like knowing there is a name for how
other people parent or homeschool. But I am realizing now that not
using the term may just be a way that I respect his wishes, while he
respects my wishes to not institutionalize or test our children.

And honestly, I probably don't fit into a radical unschooling label
much...

I have written a blog about Christian unschooling and I would be
interested to hear others reactions to it.... but please be gentle as I
am still new to learning about all of this!

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/OutdoorSmores/520814/
<http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/OutdoorSmores/520814/>


--- In [email protected], "juillet727" <juillet727@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi there--
> first off, I just wanted to say I really liked Deb's response--so well
> put! I really agree with all that was said.
>
> And then I just wanted to say, I don't use the term unschooling with
> my extended family (I come from a long line of educators). And I don't
> discuss the philosophy of unschooling with anyone who isn't doing it
> themselves. I'll talk about what adventures we're having or what my
> son is involved in right now. That's the stuff they can relate to. And
> they like hearing about our lives. At times I've gotten self conscious
> in some situations where I'm clearly doing my parenting differently
> then how I was raised, but..oh well. I had to get over that.
>
> I had to not use the term unschooling with my partner, too. He didn't
> want the label. And that's ok. When we do talk about various family
> stuff--respect for each other, guidance (discipline), what we want our
> lives to be like with our boy, I still don't use the word unschooling
> because I'm not trying to fit into a philosophy or label our family;
> I'm simply trying to be happy and have a happy family.
> just my $.02
>
> Anyway, gotta run.
> ~~Juillet
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Therese"
> theresefranklin@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > My name is Therese, gentle Christian mama to my two girls, ages 2
and
> > 4. I used to teach 2nd grade and then 1st grade for a few years
before
> > my girls were born. I knew after my experiences teaching that
> > homeschooling would be ideal, and I don't really know if I could
ever
> > go back to 'teaching' in the way the schools would have me teach.
Scary
> > scary.
> > Anyhow, I have done lots and lots of reading, and I agree with
> > unschooling and can see how it will benefit my children. As a
> > Christian, I fully believe that God made them with their own unique
> > gifts that can be realized when given the freedom to explore them.
The
> > bible teaches we are free through Christ, and I fully want them to
> > experience what God has in store for them. I didn't want to get into
a
> > religious discussion, but just wanted to let you know where I come
from
> > here.
> >
> > My husband however has some major issues about the term
'unschooling',
> > but I'm working on him. He doesn't want us to ever label ourselves
> > as 'unschoolers'. (Well he doesn't want me to label myself as VEGAN
> > either, but thats what I am LOL) mostly because of flack from our
> > families- who are just coming to terms with our homeschooling as it
is,
> > as well as our AP parenting philosophy (not sending kids to sunday
> > school, etc) and allowing our children to sleep next to us, etc. He
> > agreed with me that grades and testing are useless tools made for
the
> > masses, not our children, (yay!) and he doesn't think a boxed
> > curriculum would be beneficial when there is so much to learn in
> > everyday life.
> >
> > But he still wants our children to be 'disciplined' as far as
behavior
> > goes, and wants me to set up a predictable schedule for the girls
and
> > myself. I don't think that a routine would be bad at all, but there
is
> > no way I can be very regimented... I am thinking of printing
> > a 'schedule' and put that on the fridge to pacify him. LOL
> > He also wants to make sure she 'knows' things that the schools are
> > teaching- and he thinks that some things have to be learned whether
> > they like it or not... not sure how to respond to that.
> >
> > Also, our 4 year old is very much in her own fantasy world- which I
am
> > reminding him is a good thing- but he worries about her because
every
> > moment he is home, she is running on all fours as a 'pony' or
'puppy'
> > or 'rat' (thanks to ratatoulle) and she even does this in public and
he
> > gets embarassed. She also has to sing or shout or ramble on and on
> > CONSTANTLY and he worries that there is something wrong with that.
LOL
> >
> > So- when you are home and able to read SO much more than your
husband-
> > how do you deal with him on the issues?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Therese in CA
> > Mama to my widdle girls
> >
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 12, 2008, at 3:17 AM, Therese wrote:

> He doesn't want us to ever label ourselves
> as 'unschoolers'.

There isn't a reason to. I've always described what we do as "just
following her interests". And allow people to believe what they will
with that. One of the benefits of magnet schools was to allow
children to follow their interests. ;-)

> But he still wants our children to be 'disciplined' as far as behavior
> goes

What he needs is an unschooling conference so he can see what happens
with kids who have freedom with the partnership of a parent :-)

We can often train children through various forms of punishment to
*act* right -- eg, "be disciplined" -- but it's all on the surface.
The more we train them to behave as we want, the better they get at
hiding who they are and the less we know what's going on inside.
Haven't we all met kids who are sweet around adults and terrors when
adults aren't around? Ask him if he knows kids like that.

It's not a guarantee that sweet on the outside hides nasty on the
inside, but the big point is that if kids can't trust that they can
be themselves around us, *we can't know*. If kids continue to be who
they are around us we can be there to help them find safe and
socially acceptable ways to get what they're trying to get.

I think too often, like with school, parents see the successes and
assume school is the cause and see the failures and assume the child
or family is at fault. But is that true? Of course most people can't
even know! For them there is no control group. Unschoolers can see
that their kids become successes even without school so we *know*
school isn't the factor.

Just the same with strict parenting. Most parents are aware of strict
parenting and permissive parenting but nothing in between. At least
with strict parenting, kids have some input and role modeling on what
they should do, so some do come out right. Permissively parented kids
often lack engagement with their parents so they're raising themselves.

MIndful parenting avoids the pitfalls of both. It has both the
engagement and the role modeling without the neglect and without the
control that can make kids fight against what we want for them. At 16
my daughter is kind and thoughtful and actually enjoys spending time
with me. Can most parents of 16 yos say that?

It sounds like he's afraid. It also sounds like he's worried what
others will think. Those are real concerns to him and should be
treated with the respect you'd give your kids' worries and concerns!
It doesn't mean he's right, but it does mean it feels real to him and
if you treat his worries as silly he's not going to feel listened to.

> Also, our 4 year old is very much in her own fantasy world- which I am
> reminding him is a good thing


You might see if your library has:

Your 4 Year Old
http://tinyurl.com/6y82x3

Lots of people have said how accurate the series is for behavior for
each age. (Though apparently my daughter didn't read the books! Or
maybe she did and was determined not to fit into the mold ;-) The
parenting advice at the back is very conventional so not much use but
the rest might assure him what can be expected. Though my daughter
continued doing a lot of fantasy play well beyond the age when most
kids had stopped (early teens I think.) Fortunately she had a friend
who enjoyed it too :-) And now most of her fantasy play goes into
writing comics and stories.

> I am thinking of printing
> a 'schedule' and put that on the fridge to pacify him.

You could write up a loose schedule but think of it as helping him. I
know you were joking with a pretend schedule but it could be
tempting. At the moment he's working on trust and if he finds you're
fudging to get around his worries that's going to be a huge set back.

Joyce

Ren Allen

> I have written a blog about Christian unschooling and I would be
> interested to hear others reactions to it.... but please be gentle
as I am still new to learning about all of this!

Well, since you asked...
I want you to know that we DO advocate radical unschooling here at
this list. I hope you'll stay and ask enough questions to get a true
understanding of what it means because it seems you have some
misconceptions about what unlimited tv/video games and other ideas
look like.

It's certainly NOT "leave them to themselves" at all. Though many
misunderstand this. RU and mindful parenting is one of the most
connected and respectful ways to be with children.

Also, seeing children as "sinful" and "needing correction" can
actually hinder the parents ability to truly be present and find
solutions outside of the punishment/reward paradigm.

Have you read "Punished by Rewards" or "Unconditional Parenting" by
Alfie Kohn? Good reads. The idea at this list, is that children (and
most all humans) are trying to do their best in every situation.
Sometimes we need better tools, or better information but even when a
child seems to behave poorly, it is simply that they have no other
tools available to them at the moment.

We can give you ideas for moving closer to trust, closer to respect
and joy. The list exists to help people with that and how to trust ALL
of your child's learning whether it's about chores or tv or food or
anything else that involves this human learning journey. Because
learning is learning. Reading isn't different from chores, food isn't
different from math. It's all just part of life and the learning
experiences therein.


Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

Also, there is a list for Christian unschoolers...this one is newer I
think: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianunschoolingbasics/

There is also the radchristianunschoolers list which seems to be
connected to the above group. They said the above one is for those
newer to unschooling though. So I suggest checking it out.

This list is inclusive meaning you are more than welcome as a
Christian, however we ask that everyone remembers that we are an
eclectic blend of pagans, atheists, jews, christians, and
who-knows-what-all and we don't discuss religion here though we may
discuss how to unschool faith/beliefs.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

There is a christian radical unschooling group.
Anyone has the link?
Laura?

Alex P

Therese <theresefranklin@...> wrote:

This is how my DH feels- he doesn't want us to label ourselves or our
children, or try to fit into any sort of label. I however, like being
'a part' of something bigger and like knowing there is a name for how
other people parent or homeschool. But I am realizing now that not
using the term may just be a way that I respect his wishes, while he
respects my wishes to not institutionalize or test our children.

And honestly, I probably don't fit into a radical unschooling label
much...

I have written a blog about Christian unschooling and I would be
interested to hear others reactions to it.... but please be gentle as I
am still new to learning about all of this!

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/OutdoorSmores/520814/
<http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/OutdoorSmores/520814/>

--- In [email protected], "juillet727" <juillet727@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi there--
> first off, I just wanted to say I really liked Deb's response--so well
> put! I really agree with all that was said.
>
> And then I just wanted to say, I don't use the term unschooling with
> my extended family (I come from a long line of educators). And I don't
> discuss the philosophy of unschooling with anyone who isn't doing it
> themselves. I'll talk about what adventures we're having or what my
> son is involved in right now. That's the stuff they can relate to. And
> they like hearing about our lives. At times I've gotten self conscious
> in some situations where I'm clearly doing my parenting differently
> then how I was raised, but..oh well. I had to get over that.
>
> I had to not use the term unschooling with my partner, too. He didn't
> want the label. And that's ok. When we do talk about various family
> stuff--respect for each other, guidance (discipline), what we want our
> lives to be like with our boy, I still don't use the word unschooling
> because I'm not trying to fit into a philosophy or label our family;
> I'm simply trying to be happy and have a happy family.
> just my $.02
>
> Anyway, gotta run.
> ~~Juillet
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Therese"
> theresefranklin@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > My name is Therese, gentle Christian mama to my two girls, ages 2
and
> > 4. I used to teach 2nd grade and then 1st grade for a few years
before
> > my girls were born. I knew after my experiences teaching that
> > homeschooling would be ideal, and I don't really know if I could
ever
> > go back to 'teaching' in the way the schools would have me teach.
Scary
> > scary.
> > Anyhow, I have done lots and lots of reading, and I agree with
> > unschooling and can see how it will benefit my children. As a
> > Christian, I fully believe that God made them with their own unique
> > gifts that can be realized when given the freedom to explore them.
The
> > bible teaches we are free through Christ, and I fully want them to
> > experience what God has in store for them. I didn't want to get into
a
> > religious discussion, but just wanted to let you know where I come
from
> > here.
> >
> > My husband however has some major issues about the term
'unschooling',
> > but I'm working on him. He doesn't want us to ever label ourselves
> > as 'unschoolers'. (Well he doesn't want me to label myself as VEGAN
> > either, but thats what I am LOL) mostly because of flack from our
> > families- who are just coming to terms with our homeschooling as it
is,
> > as well as our AP parenting philosophy (not sending kids to sunday
> > school, etc) and allowing our children to sleep next to us, etc. He
> > agreed with me that grades and testing are useless tools made for
the
> > masses, not our children, (yay!) and he doesn't think a boxed
> > curriculum would be beneficial when there is so much to learn in
> > everyday life.
> >
> > But he still wants our children to be 'disciplined' as far as
behavior
> > goes, and wants me to set up a predictable schedule for the girls
and
> > myself. I don't think that a routine would be bad at all, but there
is
> > no way I can be very regimented... I am thinking of printing
> > a 'schedule' and put that on the fridge to pacify him. LOL
> > He also wants to make sure she 'knows' things that the schools are
> > teaching- and he thinks that some things have to be learned whether
> > they like it or not... not sure how to respond to that.
> >
> > Also, our 4 year old is very much in her own fantasy world- which I
am
> > reminding him is a good thing- but he worries about her because
every
> > moment he is home, she is running on all fours as a 'pony' or
'puppy'
> > or 'rat' (thanks to ratatoulle) and she even does this in public and
he
> > gets embarassed. She also has to sing or shout or ramble on and on
> > CONSTANTLY and he worries that there is something wrong with that.
LOL
> >
> > So- when you are home and able to read SO much more than your
husband-
> > how do you deal with him on the issues?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Therese in CA
> > Mama to my widdle girls
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], "juillet727" <juillet727@...>
wrote:
I'll talk about what adventures we're having or what my
> son is involved in right now. That's the stuff they can relate to. And
> they like hearing about our lives.

Oh yeah - that's another good one, for extended family particularly but
also for the out-working partner. I've found it really helpful to just
send a steady stream of "here's a picture of DS at Higgins Armory
looking at the ancient Greek weaponry" "here's a picture of DS at the
beach - that's DH's hand holding the live whelk" "here's DS at his golf
lesson - he was really proud of how much he remembered from last year"
and so on...lots of tidbits, in words and pictures, that show our
Lives. Most parents and grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins talk
about "Mary won the spelling bee" and "Johnny got on the honor roll"
and so on - that's how they share their lives because that IS their
life. Our lives are so different mostly that it can be really helpful
to "feed" the relatives a steady stream of stuff that they can grab
onto because we've not got the 'typical' stuff.

FWIW my parents now send us articles they've seen in various newspapers
and such about unschooling - they think it's cool and makes good sense
by and large. And my dad's sister, my 91 yr old aunt, thinks it's the
greatest thing since sliced bread and wishes she had been able to
unschool her youngest (who is a year older than I am). How cool is
that?!

--Deb

Deb

--- In [email protected], "Therese"
<theresefranklin@...> wrote:
>but what I meant when I said that my husband wants our
> children to be 'disciplined' is really that he wants them to be >quiet
> and not screaming while running around like animals when we are at
other
> people's houses. LOL.

Ah - slightly different there (Because the situation at someone else's
house is different than at home). Sounds like SHE needs more tools at
hand when visiting. A big key is to try to foresee the situation and
cut the "problem behaviors" off at the pass so to speak. For example,
when we were going to visit my 91 yr old aunt at her little senior
housing apartment (not a lot of space, mostly grownups sitting and
talking, etc) we made sure to bring DS' sketchpad, pens, Nintendo DS
with games and headphones and charger, etc. As it turned out, my aunt
had just adopted a kitten and DS had a great time playing with a
fishing-pole like cat toy with a feather on the end - he'd dangle it
and the kitten would chase it and jump for it and they played for a
good half hour at a clip with that. In the process, he was able to
connect with my aunt over the kitten which helped him feel more
comfortable in that space and she thinks he's a wonderfully amazing kid
(he actually *talked* to her directly, instead of doing the 'that's an
OLD person, avoid avoid avoid thing - I did have to 'interpret' on
occasion because of her hearing loss). When we're in church, he has his
bag o' stuff (sketchpad, DS with headphones, snacks, water bottle, misc
quiet bits - a recent inclusion was a book of puns!lol).

Taking a child (or any person really) into a situation that (a) they
have no control over and (b) they have no connection to (such as a 4 yr
old at Aunt Betsy's totally not child-safe one bedroom apartment) for 3
hours of grown up chatting is asking for difficulties in most cases
UNLESS you account for the situation, discuss it together as partners,
and provide tools for dealing with it (quiet toys, a favorite video or
two, a snack if there's not going to be one handy, etc) Plus, you'd
also want to be sure to touch base regularly, excuse yourself during a
lull in conversation and see how things are going, evaluate whether you
might need to cut things shorter than planned, etc. Simply snatching up
a child away from their familiar territory and plopping them down in
some strange place with no resources at all, they're going to do
whatever they need to do to keep occupied - which might mean crawling
around on the floor like a puppy and barking at people. An ounce of
prevention is worth a pound of cure - rather than looking for 'better
discipline/punishment' methods, work as your child's partner to find
ways to avoid or minimize the difficulties of the situation. For
example, there have been times when we've needed to stand and wait for
something in a space where toys and games and running are just not
doable (such as waiting in the funeral home lobby before FIL's funeral
this past March). We've developed (over time) a repertoire of physical
but quiet and low key activities that let DS burn some of his abundant
energy without disturbing others - in that case, for example, we found
an area with a little space around it (3 ft radius roughly) and he
takes my hand and swings around me in a circle, switching hand to hand
as one arm reaches its limit like a monkey swinging tree to tree. He
got energy out, I was able to acknowledge people going past and chat a
little bit, DH was able to focus on his mom and other family members
(as well as having space for his own self) and I was able to keep an
eye out to DH for when he needed us. It really helped also to brief DS
on what to expect (what he'd see, hear, maybe smell since there's often
a bit of air freshener type scent in funeral homes, perhaps feel
emotionally, and so on). Lots of preparation and lots of discussion in
the days afterward. Things like the old isometric exercises can be
helpful - sitting next to each other and placing palm against palm (his
against mine) and pushing/resisting is quiet but uses some big muscles
which can help when he's getting restless. And, sometimes, I'll excuse
myself and DS and I will go to another room (bathroom if nowhere else
is available) so that we can talk without disturbing whatever is going
on, touch base, work on what is happening, what he needs, what I need,
etc).

It's a partnership. Knowing that his needs will be considered and
addressed as much as possible is sometimes all DS needs to be able to
manage a particular situation.

--Deb

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Deb wrote:

> Most parents and grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins talk
> about "Mary won the spelling bee" and "Johnny got on the honor roll"
> and so on - that's how they share their lives because that IS their
> life. Our lives are so different mostly that it can be really helpful
> to "feed" the relatives a steady stream of stuff that they can grab
> onto because we've not got the 'typical' stuff.

I did a lot of this, too.

My family was on the go a lot - went to lots of places like aquariums,
zoos, historical sites, festivals, museums, concerts, and so on.

One extended family member did say to me, a little sarcastically: "Is
homeschooling really just all going on field trips or do the kids do
any actual schoolwork?" I smoothly said, "Uh, well, not really." Then
I changed the subject. Not sure which question she thought I'd
answered <G>.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese

> Well, since you asked...
> I want you to know that we DO advocate radical unschooling here at
> this list. I hope you'll stay and ask enough questions to get a true
> understanding of what it means because it seems you have some
> misconceptions about what unlimited tv/video games and other ideas
> look like.

I very may well be on my way to becoming a radical unschooler- I just
need some insight as to how this works out where everyone's needs are
met. I would love to stay and get a good understanding of what
radical unschooling looks like.

> Also, seeing children as "sinful" and "needing correction" can
> actually hinder the parents ability to truly be present and find
> solutions outside of the punishment/reward paradigm.

I come from a different paradigm of thought; I AM sinful, My DH IS
sinful, and so are my DDs- we all are fallen to sin- and because I
know that- I can give her GRACE! She is just like me! I know that
none of us are perfect, so when she behaves unfavorably, I forgive
her and try to get to the root of the problem. I sure as heck don't
believe that the bible teaches us to beat the sinfulness out of them-
that is just untrue and disgusting. It makes me sad that the bible
is being taught that way.

I think when you say 'needing correction' you are thinking of someone
else (maybe other punitive Christians?) who are not using gentle
discipline or mindful parenting... I guess my wordage could use some
more elaboration. My husband and I try to practice gentle
discipline, we do not punish or spank. We don't use rewards or
punishments. We try to be mindful and put our relationship first. So
when I say 'correction' I mean, stoping and giving my child what they
need in the moment.

> Have you read "Punished by Rewards" or "Unconditional Parenting" by
> Alfie Kohn? Good reads. The idea at this list, is that children (and
> most all humans) are trying to do their best in every situation.
> Sometimes we need better tools, or better information but even when
> a child seems to behave poorly, it is simply that they have no other
> tools available to them at the moment.

Yes I have read both books. I agree with the basic principles of
those books; that children are trying to do their very best in every
situation. I don't use punishments or rewards- and don't want to give
my child an education centered around those two 'incentives' for
learning.

> We can give you ideas for moving closer to trust, closer to respect
> and joy. The list exists to help people with that and how to trust
ALL of your child's learning whether it's about chores or tv or food
or anything else that involves this human learning journey. Because
learning is learning. Reading isn't different from chores, food isn't
different from math. It's all just part of life and the learning
experiences therein.
>

Thank you! I look forward to hearing more!

Therese

Therese

> This list is inclusive meaning you are more than welcome as a
> Christian, however we ask that everyone remembers that we are an
> eclectic blend of pagans, atheists, jews, christians, and
> who-knows-what-all and we don't discuss religion here though we may
> discuss how to unschool faith/beliefs.:)
>

Thank you for the link, I'll take any further religious discussion over
there. I just wanted to reply to the previous messages first.

I can definetely understand how some need to unschool from 'religion'
and the false doctrine of abuse taught in the churches. I am
unschooling my beliefs about needing to attend church, or put my
children in sunday school right now. We don't believe in 'religion'.

Blessings,
Therese

Therese

> >Ah - slightly different there (Because the situation at someone
else's house is different than at home). Sounds like SHE needs more
tools at hand when visiting. A big key is to try to foresee the
situation and cut the "problem behaviors" off at the pass so to
speak.
-This is great- should I talk to her about the 'rules' ahead of
time? Sometimes it helps when I ask her about how we talk in the
library before we go in- things like that. I was thinking of
explaining to her about not jumping on the furniture at Grandmas
house (although I allow it at home)..


> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - rather than
>looking for 'better discipline/punishment' methods, work as your
>child's partner to find ways to avoid or minimize the difficulties
>of the situation. For example, there have been times when we've
>needed to stand and wait for something in a space where toys and
>games and running are just not doable (such as waiting in the
>funeral home lobby before FIL's funeral this past March). We've
>developed (over time) a repertoire of physical but quiet and low key
>activities that let DS burn some of his abundant energy without
>disturbing others - in that case, for example, we found an area with
>a little space around it (3 ft radius roughly) and he takes my hand
>and swings around me in a circle, switching hand to hand as one arm
>reaches its limit like a monkey swinging tree to tree. He got energy
>out, I was able to acknowledge people going past and chat a little
>bit, DH was able to focus on his mom and other family members (as
>well as having space for his own self) and I was able to keep an eye
>out to DH for when he needed us. It really helped also to brief DS
>on what to expect (what he'd see, hear, maybe smell since there's
>often a bit of air freshener type scent in funeral homes, perhaps
>feel emotionally, and so on). Lots of preparation and lots of
>discussion in the days afterward. Things like the old isometric
>exercises can be helpful - sitting next to each other and placing
>palm against palm (his against mine) and pushing/resisting is quiet
>but uses some big muscles which can help when he's getting restless.
>And, sometimes, I'll excuse
>myself and DS and I will go to another room (bathroom if nowhere
else
> is available) so that we can talk without disturbing whatever is
going
> on, touch base, work on what is happening, what he needs, what I
need,
> etc).
>
> It's a partnership. Knowing that his needs will be considered and
> addressed as much as possible is sometimes all DS needs to be able
to manage a particular situation.


This is great advice! My dd is very much the type that needs to get
out her energy - and the creative ways you mention would be very
helpful!

Thank you!
Therese

Therese

Thank you, Joyce. I definetely came to the right place here. At the
moment I am working on DH by giving him articles so he can see how
early academics is not good for children- even harmful. Recently he
felt that I should 'start' Kindergarden with DD1. So I gave him an
interesting article stating that there should be no desks in Kindy
and how early academics before the brain's neurological pathways are
developed sets children up for future learning disabilites, etc etc
http://www.lilipoh.com/articles/2007/fall2007/teaching_children.aspx

By far its not an unschooling article- but its headed in that
direction, kwim? After reading that, he thought about it and slowly
agreed that what we are doing is the right thing, by 'waiting' yet he
is timid. But I will try to be gentle on him and validate his fears
as real.

Thanks again,

:)Therese

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 12, 2008, at 3:17 AM, Therese wrote:
>
> > He doesn't want us to ever label ourselves
> > as 'unschoolers'.
>
> There isn't a reason to. I've always described what we do as "just
> following her interests". And allow people to believe what they
will
> with that. One of the benefits of magnet schools was to allow
> children to follow their interests. ;-)
>
> > But he still wants our children to be 'disciplined' as far as
behavior
> > goes
>
> What he needs is an unschooling conference so he can see what
happens
> with kids who have freedom with the partnership of a parent :-)
>
> We can often train children through various forms of punishment to
> *act* right -- eg, "be disciplined" -- but it's all on the
surface.
> The more we train them to behave as we want, the better they get
at
> hiding who they are and the less we know what's going on inside.
> Haven't we all met kids who are sweet around adults and terrors
when
> adults aren't around? Ask him if he knows kids like that.
>
> It's not a guarantee that sweet on the outside hides nasty on the
> inside, but the big point is that if kids can't trust that they
can
> be themselves around us, *we can't know*. If kids continue to be
who
> they are around us we can be there to help them find safe and
> socially acceptable ways to get what they're trying to get.
>
> I think too often, like with school, parents see the successes and
> assume school is the cause and see the failures and assume the
child
> or family is at fault. But is that true? Of course most people
can't
> even know! For them there is no control group. Unschoolers can see
> that their kids become successes even without school so we *know*
> school isn't the factor.
>
> Just the same with strict parenting. Most parents are aware of
strict
> parenting and permissive parenting but nothing in between. At
least
> with strict parenting, kids have some input and role modeling on
what
> they should do, so some do come out right. Permissively parented
kids
> often lack engagement with their parents so they're raising
themselves.
>
> MIndful parenting avoids the pitfalls of both. It has both the
> engagement and the role modeling without the neglect and without
the
> control that can make kids fight against what we want for them. At
16
> my daughter is kind and thoughtful and actually enjoys spending
time
> with me. Can most parents of 16 yos say that?
>
> It sounds like he's afraid. It also sounds like he's worried what
> others will think. Those are real concerns to him and should be
> treated with the respect you'd give your kids' worries and
concerns!
> It doesn't mean he's right, but it does mean it feels real to him
and
> if you treat his worries as silly he's not going to feel listened
to.
>
> > Also, our 4 year old is very much in her own fantasy world- which
I am
> > reminding him is a good thing
>
>
> You might see if your library has:
>
> Your 4 Year Old
> http://tinyurl.com/6y82x3
>
> Lots of people have said how accurate the series is for behavior
for
> each age. (Though apparently my daughter didn't read the books! Or
> maybe she did and was determined not to fit into the mold ;-) The
> parenting advice at the back is very conventional so not much use
but
> the rest might assure him what can be expected. Though my daughter
> continued doing a lot of fantasy play well beyond the age when
most
> kids had stopped (early teens I think.) Fortunately she had a
friend
> who enjoyed it too :-) And now most of her fantasy play goes into
> writing comics and stories.
>
> > I am thinking of printing
> > a 'schedule' and put that on the fridge to pacify him.
>
> You could write up a loose schedule but think of it as helping him.
I
> know you were joking with a pretend schedule but it could be
> tempting. At the moment he's working on trust and if he finds
you're
> fudging to get around his worries that's going to be a huge set
back.
>
> Joyce
>

One of the Wechts

Therese wrote

> Thank you, Joyce. I definetely came to the right place here. At the
> moment I am working on DH by giving him articles so he can see how
> early academics is not good for children- even harmful.

If you haven't yet, maybe try...
Better Late Than Early or School Can Wait by the Moores
Lots of study blips to quote selectively to support your um *relaxed*
approach : )
in the early years.
This is good for buying time for unschooling to sink in!
Frank Smith's The book of Learning and Forgetting is a good one too!

Beth in MD
mom of 19yos, 16yos and 12yod