Deb

I was having a discussion over lunch with a coworker (intern, 19
years old, just finished his first year of college). We often discuss
unschooling topics because he for the most part thinks it makes more
sense than institutional schooling. The topic du jour, however, was a
lifestyle (RU) issue and I'd really like to find some reading
materials to pass along on it so he can ponder it more slowly than in
a discussion.

We were discussing the concept of 'earning' things. For instance, if
a kid wants money to buy something, let the kid do a 'chore' such as
cleaning their room to earn an agreed-upon amount of money. I was
trying to point out that if you applied the same logic in an adult-
adult situation (for example, an at-home mom earning the money to buy
a pair of shoes by scrubbing and waxing the kitchen floor) it doesn't
fly really well but it's considered perfectly okay in an adult-child
relationship. He tried to say that since his wife would definitely
have a job, that wouldn't apply. I said Well, what if she makes $10K
per year and you make $5K per year (easy numbers to work with) - does
that mean that she has $5K to spend as she pleases and if you want
more than your own $5K that you earned at your employment, you have
to ask her to pay you for 'chores' around the house? His response was
that in a couple, the money is shared in common. I said, well then
why doesn't that apply to any children in the household too since
they are in the same position, economically, as the non-employed
partner? He was getting a bit flustered and lunch was over so we
quit.

I KNOW there's some really well written stuff out there but I can't
find it - Help! I browsed around Sandra's site and didn't find what
I'm looking for (though there was lots of other good stuff there).
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?....

--Deb

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:08 PM, Deb wrote:

> I KNOW there's some really well written stuff out there but I can't
> find it - Help!

I don't know if it's well written, but a brief bit on allowance is:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/
tyingallowancetochores.html

(if that wraps and breaks, use:

http://tinyurl.com/59allz)

I think where the thinking derailed is that he's seeing the world
through adult eyes and imposing a solution that seems reasonable to
that viewpoint onto a child. But the child sees the world
differently. Imposing an adult viewpoint (and solution) won't force
him to change from a child's viewpoint to an adult's. Time, age,
growth, maturity will do that. He'll have an adult's view point when
he's an adult.

Kids will understand better if our solutions match their view of the
world. To a child, parents have money that they spend on stuff the
parents want all the time. And the parents have an "It's mine!"
attitude towards the money. Occasionally they'll begrudgingly share a
bit, if they agree with what the child wants.

While it's not a completely accurate picture (though more accurate
than adults will admit!) it's not a picture a child can be argued out
of. It's just how they'll view the world until they're older.

If an adult lived that way, having to go through the process of
convincing their partner that every purchase was worthy and then wait
for approval, not only would it be frustrating but it wouldn't do
much for the relationship!

Why should kids feel differently? Kids see parents spending hundreds
of dollars at the grocery store for stuff the parents want (and stuff
the parents approve of for the kids) and the kids can't have a candy
bar at the check out?

The downside of holding tight to our money until a child jumps
through a hoop for it is that it models being closed and Scroogy with
others.

The upside of generosity is that 1) it models that behavior for kids
and 2) they feel full rather than needy. When they're full, they are
way more likely to feel generous (with their time, money, patience,
etc.) with others.

And generous doesn't mean just handing to them whatever they ask.
Generous means seeing their needs as important and showing the child
that you are willing to work to get those needs met. If, for
instance, there's a limited food budget and my daughter wanted
something, we could talk about what to cut back on so she could get
that thing. When they see us working hard, they know things don't
come for free. When they see us working hard for what they want, they
will be generous and work hard to help us get what we want. (Not just
a theory! Lots of parents will corroborate this! :-)

Here's something I wrote a while ago that might help:

> #3. I make him do chores for money to EARN a toy
>

While from an adult point of view it seems reasonable, what you're
modeling is "This is mine. [The money.] And if you want any of it,
I'm going to make you jump through hoops to get it."

Picture this: sister asks brother if she can borrow his box of 64
crayons and he says "If you clean up my room, I'll let you have 3."

That's what you're modeling for him.

If you're on a budget, be patient with him as he struggles to
understand how the world works. (You can discuss how you and he can
cut down on food expenses so the money can be shifted to other
things. You can help him become a savvy shopper :-)

But explaining why you can't do such and such isn't enough.** He has
to be old enough to really get the concepts. He might understand the
words, but when mom says she doesn't have the money when she's
handing over money left and right for things *she* wants (food,
clothing that's supposedly a gift for him that he doesn't even want,
etc.) then the world seems hugely confusing. (Even worse is "I don't
want to spend the money on that," which, from his viewpoint, he'd get
punished for saying because it's been drilled into his head that *he*
has to share what's his when others ask.)

** (And often it isn't true. It's that we don't want to, eg, we don't
want to eat beans and rice instead of meat one night to help him get
a toy. But the more we *help* them, the more they feel that we're on
their team working with them to help them get what they want, the
more we model generosity.)

Joyce

mary

--- In [email protected], "Deb" <debra.rossing@...> wrote:

> Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?....
>
> --Deb
>
I don't have the info but laughed at the Ben Stein quote in a message
about money!

and a duh! moment. Ferris learns a lot more away from school than he
does at school-as do his friends.

I'm a little slow sometimes...

mary

Debra Rossing

Thanks folks - those will help a bunch. Sometimes it helps to see in
print something to be able to really ponder the concepts because spoken
words go by too quickly

Deb

--who can't wait to get home tonight because Iron Dragon just arrived
and I can't wait to play it! Any other Iron Dragon/Eurorails/Empire
Builder players out there?


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> If an adult lived that way, having to go through the process of
> convincing their partner that every purchase was worthy and then
wait
> for approval, not only would it be frustrating but it wouldn't do
> much for the relationship!

And to many, many adults, that relationship would be considered
unhealthy at the least and probably even abusive. On military bases
there are flyers put up in bathroom stalls and all kinds of other
places about how to get help if you are in an abusive relationship.
I think I may have seen the same type of flyers taped to the
bathroom wall at the OB's office. The fyers list some of the
behaviors that are considered abusive. A spouse controlling the
money is one of those abusive behaviors.

Controlling money is not OK for an adult-adult relationship where
the adults at least have some choice and the ability to at least try
to get away. It's perfectly OK and even expected in a parent-child
relationship where the child does not have a choice, cannot get
away, does not have the ability to do for h**self.

Alysia