Discussion about labels...
Tamara Muccia
So there has been a lot of discussion about labels lately and as a newer parent to all this I have really learned a lot. I have always been against labeling unless the label gets the labeled person something -- better understanding for themseleves, different/better treatments, etc. Unfortunately I also think people use labels as a crutch to not see the individual and not take ownership for their part in a relationship -- whether that be parent, child, doctor, teacher, etc. Until now, I was always focused on what labeling did/does to me. Now that I have a son, I can be quite the fierce momma bear when someone tries to label him -- even if the labels a "good" labels. I'm really big on saying "it isnt good or bad it just is" about lots of things in life and i really want that to apply to my ds too. So any advice on how to be gentler with others when they start trying to label him, but still get the point accross that I don't want them to do it?
p.s. I also just ran accross this article on advice on when to label and thought it was interesting given the discussion going on... http://micheleborba.ivillage.com/parenting/archives/2008/05/qa-does-a-child-need-a-diagono.html?nlcid=in|06-03-2008|
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
p.s. I also just ran accross this article on advice on when to label and thought it was interesting given the discussion going on... http://micheleborba.ivillage.com/parenting/archives/2008/05/qa-does-a-child-need-a-diagono.html?nlcid=in|06-03-2008|
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Tamara Muccia <tkwmuccia@...>
So any advice on how to be gentler with others when they start trying
to label him, but still get the point accross that I don't want them to
do it?
-=-=-=-
Yeah---Labels are for canned goods, not children.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Tamara Muccia <tkwmuccia@...>
So any advice on how to be gentler with others when they start trying
to label him, but still get the point accross that I don't want them to
do it?
-=-=-=-
Yeah---Labels are for canned goods, not children.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2008, at 8:34 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
other people are labeling your child?
You can always say very directly, 'No, there really is no label that
fits him."
Or make a little joke, "The only label that really fits him is the one
we slapped on him when he was born." They look at you quizzically.
"His name."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So any advice on how to be gentler with others when they start tryingYou mean they say things like, "He is ADD?" I guess I'm not sure how
> to label him, but still get the point accross that I don't want them
> to
> do it?
other people are labeling your child?
You can always say very directly, 'No, there really is no label that
fits him."
Or make a little joke, "The only label that really fits him is the one
we slapped on him when he was born." They look at you quizzically.
"His name."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul H. Beaulieu II
While other than a childs name labels can be limiting in many ways if
allowed to define someone they can in fact be very useful if you use
them as they are meant to be used.
For example if my child is clinically diagnosed with any disorder, we
all know that the label neither defines or limits the capabilities of
our child, however it can be used to further empower us and the child
to succeed in areas that may be helpful.
i will use something concrete here so it can be grasped a little more
obviously. now if my child is diagnosed with autism or lies somewhere
on the spectrum, that in itself, does not indicate any form of value
assignment as a label however it allows me as a parent to research in
a more directed manner the issues physical, mental and emotional
involved with said diagnosis.
i may decide my child has some of the symptoms that may indicate that
metals testing would be necessary and such treatment could possibly
lead to an easing of the childs discomfort and in many cases aleviate
the autistic symptoms all together, or the same child may in fact
show signs of a glutein/cassein allergy problem and by having focused
research because these are common comorbidities/causational issues to
autism. in this way the "label" has allowed for more clear research
by a parent or the child themselves depending on age because believe
me as you already know if you leave proactive direction to the
doctors you will be very disappointed unless you have a fantastic
one. Labels in themselves are not bad it is how they are weilded that
can do the dammage.
the tire iron in my trunk if used to change my tire is a tool beyond
value on the side of the road in the snow however if i weild it in
malice at another then the tire iron is percieved to be bad. the tool
is neither bad nor good it is just a tool, intent and use determine
the value of a thing. (in my opinion)
so if knowing your child exhibits symptoms of ADHD or autism or
cerebral palsy can be used by you to further unlock the world for
your child then i celebrate the label. if however it will be used by
those in the "know" to harm or limit the child then maybe the people
in the know need to be monitered.
just a thought.
Paul
allowed to define someone they can in fact be very useful if you use
them as they are meant to be used.
For example if my child is clinically diagnosed with any disorder, we
all know that the label neither defines or limits the capabilities of
our child, however it can be used to further empower us and the child
to succeed in areas that may be helpful.
i will use something concrete here so it can be grasped a little more
obviously. now if my child is diagnosed with autism or lies somewhere
on the spectrum, that in itself, does not indicate any form of value
assignment as a label however it allows me as a parent to research in
a more directed manner the issues physical, mental and emotional
involved with said diagnosis.
i may decide my child has some of the symptoms that may indicate that
metals testing would be necessary and such treatment could possibly
lead to an easing of the childs discomfort and in many cases aleviate
the autistic symptoms all together, or the same child may in fact
show signs of a glutein/cassein allergy problem and by having focused
research because these are common comorbidities/causational issues to
autism. in this way the "label" has allowed for more clear research
by a parent or the child themselves depending on age because believe
me as you already know if you leave proactive direction to the
doctors you will be very disappointed unless you have a fantastic
one. Labels in themselves are not bad it is how they are weilded that
can do the dammage.
the tire iron in my trunk if used to change my tire is a tool beyond
value on the side of the road in the snow however if i weild it in
malice at another then the tire iron is percieved to be bad. the tool
is neither bad nor good it is just a tool, intent and use determine
the value of a thing. (in my opinion)
so if knowing your child exhibits symptoms of ADHD or autism or
cerebral palsy can be used by you to further unlock the world for
your child then i celebrate the label. if however it will be used by
those in the "know" to harm or limit the child then maybe the people
in the know need to be monitered.
just a thought.
Paul
Ren Allen
~~now if my child is diagnosed with autism or lies somewhere
on the spectrum, that in itself, does not indicate any form of value
assignment as a label however it allows me as a parent to research in
a more directed manner the issues physical, mental and emotional
involved with said diagnosis.~~
Well, some of us have children for whom we did research without a
diagnoses.
It's one of those "it depends" issues that there are no black and
white answers for. In an unschooling home, I encourage parents to not
seek a diagnoses as a first reaction to behaviors or challenges.
However, it really depends on the severity of what the family is
dealing with. It's pretty hard to ignore the need for a diagnoses when
you have a severly autistic child!
One label I completely and totally see as unnecessary ALWAYS is the
"learning disability", because all it means is the child is learning
at a different rate or different way than the "average" (which isn't
even real anyway). Nobody is "learning disabled" in an unschooling
home. However, there are very real reasons that a child might need
intervention or different kinds of support and a parent needs more
than just a hunch or some research to help them give the kind of
support they need.
My other reason for cautioning against diagnoses is that the
pharmaceutical companies get a six month extension on their patent if
they do the drug research on children. The focus on turning everything
into a pathology and/or diagnosing and drugging EVERY behavior trait
they can get a hold of, makes me very leary of the "experts" and
diagnoses.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
on the spectrum, that in itself, does not indicate any form of value
assignment as a label however it allows me as a parent to research in
a more directed manner the issues physical, mental and emotional
involved with said diagnosis.~~
Well, some of us have children for whom we did research without a
diagnoses.
It's one of those "it depends" issues that there are no black and
white answers for. In an unschooling home, I encourage parents to not
seek a diagnoses as a first reaction to behaviors or challenges.
However, it really depends on the severity of what the family is
dealing with. It's pretty hard to ignore the need for a diagnoses when
you have a severly autistic child!
One label I completely and totally see as unnecessary ALWAYS is the
"learning disability", because all it means is the child is learning
at a different rate or different way than the "average" (which isn't
even real anyway). Nobody is "learning disabled" in an unschooling
home. However, there are very real reasons that a child might need
intervention or different kinds of support and a parent needs more
than just a hunch or some research to help them give the kind of
support they need.
My other reason for cautioning against diagnoses is that the
pharmaceutical companies get a six month extension on their patent if
they do the drug research on children. The focus on turning everything
into a pathology and/or diagnosing and drugging EVERY behavior trait
they can get a hold of, makes me very leary of the "experts" and
diagnoses.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
swissarmy_wife
> Well, some of us have children for whom we did research without aThis is me.
> diagnoses.
When my oldest was in school I remember sitting in on countless
meetings and conferences all about my son's "behavior". One
particular meeting stands out. I sat in this little sterile room,
while the vice principal, his teacher at the time, and the school
psychologist all discussed his behavior and his performance. As they
went over the list, the psychologist was TRYING to fit him into a
category. Apparently, they knew SOMETHING was wrong with him, but
they just couldn't figure out what. They couldn't even find a reason
to order an evaluation. All of his behaviors seemed to contradict
other behaviors. They NEVER saw him for who he was, they were do busy
trying to make him fit into who they THOUGHT he was. (I suppose the
more "disabled" children they have the more grant money they get.)
The only thing ANY of those meetings ever helped with was hastening my
decision to homeschool and ultimately unschool. The rest is history.
He's definitely different. He definitely has some "things", but I
can now respect every little part of him, rather than just the
symptoms of a label he doesn't deserve.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
While other than a childs name labels can be limiting in many ways if
allowed to define someone they can in fact be very useful if you use
them as they are meant to be used.
-=-=-=-=-
How do you mean "meant to be used"? Can you explain that?
--=-=-=-
For example if my child is clinically diagnosed with any disorder, we
all know that the label neither defines or limits the capabilities of
our child, however it can be used to further empower us and the child
to succeed in areas that may be helpful.
-=-=-=-=-
The problem is that, in MANY cases, it DOES define and limit the child
and his capabilities.
-=-=-=-=-
i may decide my child has some of the symptoms that may indicate that
metals testing would be necessary and such treatment could possibly
lead to an easing of the childs discomfort and in many cases aleviate
the autistic symptoms all together,
-=-=-=-=-
How many children have been "cured" of autism?
How many parents are desperately looking for a cure? Any cure?
What happens to the child while the parent fights so hard to find a
cure?
-=-=-=-=-
or the same child may in fact
show signs of a glutein/cassein allergy problem and by having focused
research because these are common comorbidities/causational issues to
autism.
-=-=-=-=-=
Maybe. But wouldn't changing diet along with accepting the child Where
He Is Today be just as effective?
-=-=-=-=-
in this way the "label" has allowed for more clear research
by a parent or the child themselves depending on age because believe
me as you already know if you leave proactive direction to the
doctors you will be very disappointed unless you have a fantastic
one. Labels in themselves are not bad it is how they are weilded that
can do the dammage.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Labels are bad. How they are wielded is worse. But that doesn't make
the labels better.
Not accepting the child as whole and complete in the first place is the
problem.
-=-=-=-=-
the tire iron in my trunk if used to change my tire is a tool beyond
value on the side of the road in the snow however if i weild it in
malice at another then the tire iron is percieved to be bad. the tool
is neither bad nor good it is just a tool, intent and use determine
the value of a thing. (in my opinion)
-=-=-=-
*Labeling* that tire iron as a weapon is the problem. If it's *just* a
tire iron, with no label, it's a tire iron. Calling it a weapon makes
it seem dangerous and something to be avoided.
-=-=-=-=-
so if knowing your child exhibits symptoms of ADHD or autism or
cerebral palsy can be used by you to further unlock the world for
your child then i celebrate the label. if however it will be used by
those in the "know" to harm or limit the child then maybe the people
in the know need to be monitered.
-=-=-=-=-=-
There's no need to celebrate labels at all. It doesn't have to be those
"in the know" who can harm a child. The child's own (not in the know)
parents can harm and limit him with labels.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
While other than a childs name labels can be limiting in many ways if
allowed to define someone they can in fact be very useful if you use
them as they are meant to be used.
-=-=-=-=-
How do you mean "meant to be used"? Can you explain that?
--=-=-=-
For example if my child is clinically diagnosed with any disorder, we
all know that the label neither defines or limits the capabilities of
our child, however it can be used to further empower us and the child
to succeed in areas that may be helpful.
-=-=-=-=-
The problem is that, in MANY cases, it DOES define and limit the child
and his capabilities.
-=-=-=-=-
i may decide my child has some of the symptoms that may indicate that
metals testing would be necessary and such treatment could possibly
lead to an easing of the childs discomfort and in many cases aleviate
the autistic symptoms all together,
-=-=-=-=-
How many children have been "cured" of autism?
How many parents are desperately looking for a cure? Any cure?
What happens to the child while the parent fights so hard to find a
cure?
-=-=-=-=-
or the same child may in fact
show signs of a glutein/cassein allergy problem and by having focused
research because these are common comorbidities/causational issues to
autism.
-=-=-=-=-=
Maybe. But wouldn't changing diet along with accepting the child Where
He Is Today be just as effective?
-=-=-=-=-
in this way the "label" has allowed for more clear research
by a parent or the child themselves depending on age because believe
me as you already know if you leave proactive direction to the
doctors you will be very disappointed unless you have a fantastic
one. Labels in themselves are not bad it is how they are weilded that
can do the dammage.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Labels are bad. How they are wielded is worse. But that doesn't make
the labels better.
Not accepting the child as whole and complete in the first place is the
problem.
-=-=-=-=-
the tire iron in my trunk if used to change my tire is a tool beyond
value on the side of the road in the snow however if i weild it in
malice at another then the tire iron is percieved to be bad. the tool
is neither bad nor good it is just a tool, intent and use determine
the value of a thing. (in my opinion)
-=-=-=-
*Labeling* that tire iron as a weapon is the problem. If it's *just* a
tire iron, with no label, it's a tire iron. Calling it a weapon makes
it seem dangerous and something to be avoided.
-=-=-=-=-
so if knowing your child exhibits symptoms of ADHD or autism or
cerebral palsy can be used by you to further unlock the world for
your child then i celebrate the label. if however it will be used by
those in the "know" to harm or limit the child then maybe the people
in the know need to be monitered.
-=-=-=-=-=-
There's no need to celebrate labels at all. It doesn't have to be those
"in the know" who can harm a child. The child's own (not in the know)
parents can harm and limit him with labels.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Paul H. Beaulieu II
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
nouns. nouns are ALL LABELS. Their proper use is to make it
possible
to refer to something without having to explain what you mean with
a million words every time we speak.
For example: if i say hey that is a peach then with one word all
reading or listening know what I am speaking about.
that is exactly how labels are meant to be used.
or the label of blind is NOT the cause of the difficulty that a person
carrey's march on washington right now to get the poisons out of our
vaccination system.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
communication INTENT is the key. if your intent is foul the tool will
accomplish foul results, however if your intent is noble your tools
will mostly have noble results. (ignorance taking up the portion of
noble efforts that fail)
-=-=-=-=-=-
Paul
>Ok, here goes. Kelly in language we have words, some of which are
> > -=-=-=-=-
>
> How do you mean "meant to be used"? Can you explain that?
>
> --=-=-=-
nouns. nouns are ALL LABELS. Their proper use is to make it
possible
to refer to something without having to explain what you mean with
a million words every time we speak.
For example: if i say hey that is a peach then with one word all
reading or listening know what I am speaking about.
that is exactly how labels are meant to be used.
> -=-=-=-=-child
>
> The problem is that, in MANY cases, it DOES define and limit the
> and his capabilities.Contrary to the rhetoric thrown around , the label of cerebral palsy
>
> -=-=-=-=-
or the label of blind is NOT the cause of the difficulty that a person
> (young or old) who experiences these conditions. to say that the-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
> LABEL is the problem is not only ignorant but is demeaning and in
> many ways belittling to the person who experiences these disorders.
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> How many children have been "cured" of autism?
>MANY HAVE!!!!!!!! look at Jenny McCarthy's son for an example inthe public eye. read her book. maybe even look at her and jim
carrey's march on washington right now to get the poisons out of our
vaccination system.
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>children if there is one?
> How many parents are desperately looking for a cure? Any cure?
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> shouldnt we look for a cure for something that is hurting our
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
> What happens to the child while the parent fights so hard to find a-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-
> cure?
> > THEY MAY GET CURED.....DUH.focused
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> or the same child may in fact
> show signs of a glutein/cassein allergy problem and by having
> research because these are common comorbidities/causational issuesto
> autism.Where
>
> -=-=-=-=-=
>
> Maybe. But wouldn't changing diet along with accepting the child
> He Is Today be just as effective?alergy
>
> -=-=-=-=-
> > How would you know about the possible alergy since a cassien
> tends to coinside with a desire for exactly the foods you are being-=-=-=--=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-
> hurt by?
> without the help to identify that need by having diagnostic testing
> done?
> accepting the child has nothing to do with a label!!!!!
> do you refer to your son as a boy, isnt that a label?
> your little girl as a daughter, doesnt that indicate labeling?
>
> My point is labels are not evil.
> Labels are bad. How they are wielded is worse. But that doesn'tmake
> the labels better.the
>
> Not accepting the child as whole and complete in the first place is
> problem.because
>
> -=-=-=-=-
> so if your child has a disease that is chronic but not life
> threatening you feel it is reasonable as a parent to accept the
> disease and embrace it without any attempts at treatment or
> mitigation of the pain or discomfort the child may experience
> of this careless attitude.-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>*just* a
> *Labeling* that tire iron as a weapon is the problem. If it's
> tire iron, with no label, it's a tire iron. Calling it a weaponmakes
> it seem dangerous and something to be avoided.BUT
>
> -=-=-=-=-
> HERE IT THE PINACLE OF WHAT EXACTLY I AM TALKING ABOUT
> GOD YOU MAKE THE POINT FOR ME....I CAN CALL THE TIRE IRON A ROSE
> IF I HIT YOU IN THE HEAD WITH IT IS DANGEROUS.that
>
> to indicate the word used to describe a thing is in any way more
> a collection of sounds used to communicate an idea is LUDICROUS!!with words like all tools because that is what words are a tool for
communication INTENT is the key. if your intent is foul the tool will
accomplish foul results, however if your intent is noble your tools
will mostly have noble results. (ignorance taking up the portion of
noble efforts that fail)
-=-=-=-=-=-
Paul
Kelli Johnston
I have to agree that one can "recover" from autism. Diet intervention has
been paramount in his recovery. He started with a moderate autism diagnosis
and is now borderline just 3 years later. We have a lot of evidence that he
was harmed by vaccinations, antibiotics, and some food allergies. He had a
myriad of physical/behavioral symptoms that are no longer present after
removing allergens and focusing on his health (ie nutrient dense food!!). I
chose to focus on my child for who he is AND focus on recovery from the
symptoms of autism.. For instance before cutting out casein from his diet he
had no language and would bump into walls. He would stim for hours and
tantrum. Then we took it out and after a month his vocabulary jumped to 50
words and he no longer bumped into walls! He started showing who he really
was inside..a very social happy boy. He also had horrible painful loose
stools...we changed his diet and those went away. We still loved him before
and accepted him but thought we would try something that could possibly make
his life better..and it did.
Kelli Johnston
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul H. Beaulieu II
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
--- In [email protected]
<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com> , kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
nouns. nouns are ALL LABELS. Their proper use is to make it
possible
to refer to something without having to explain what you mean with
a million words every time we speak.
For example: if i say hey that is a peach then with one word all
reading or listening know what I am speaking about.
that is exactly how labels are meant to be used.
or the label of blind is NOT the cause of the difficulty that a person
carrey's march on washington right now to get the poisons out of our
vaccination system.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
communication INTENT is the key. if your intent is foul the tool will
accomplish foul results, however if your intent is noble your tools
will mostly have noble results. (ignorance taking up the portion of
noble efforts that fail)
-=-=-=-=-=-
Paul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
been paramount in his recovery. He started with a moderate autism diagnosis
and is now borderline just 3 years later. We have a lot of evidence that he
was harmed by vaccinations, antibiotics, and some food allergies. He had a
myriad of physical/behavioral symptoms that are no longer present after
removing allergens and focusing on his health (ie nutrient dense food!!). I
chose to focus on my child for who he is AND focus on recovery from the
symptoms of autism.. For instance before cutting out casein from his diet he
had no language and would bump into walls. He would stim for hours and
tantrum. Then we took it out and after a month his vocabulary jumped to 50
words and he no longer bumped into walls! He started showing who he really
was inside..a very social happy boy. He also had horrible painful loose
stools...we changed his diet and those went away. We still loved him before
and accepted him but thought we would try something that could possibly make
his life better..and it did.
Kelli Johnston
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul H. Beaulieu II
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
--- In [email protected]
<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com> , kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>Ok, here goes. Kelly in language we have words, some of which are
> > -=-=-=-=-
>
> How do you mean "meant to be used"? Can you explain that?
>
> --=-=-=-
nouns. nouns are ALL LABELS. Their proper use is to make it
possible
to refer to something without having to explain what you mean with
a million words every time we speak.
For example: if i say hey that is a peach then with one word all
reading or listening know what I am speaking about.
that is exactly how labels are meant to be used.
> -=-=-=-=-child
>
> The problem is that, in MANY cases, it DOES define and limit the
> and his capabilities.Contrary to the rhetoric thrown around , the label of cerebral palsy
>
> -=-=-=-=-
or the label of blind is NOT the cause of the difficulty that a person
> (young or old) who experiences these conditions. to say that the-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
> LABEL is the problem is not only ignorant but is demeaning and in
> many ways belittling to the person who experiences these disorders.
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> How many children have been "cured" of autism?
>MANY HAVE!!!!!!!! look at Jenny McCarthy's son for an example inthe public eye. read her book. maybe even look at her and jim
carrey's march on washington right now to get the poisons out of our
vaccination system.
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>children if there is one?
> How many parents are desperately looking for a cure? Any cure?
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> shouldnt we look for a cure for something that is hurting our
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
> What happens to the child while the parent fights so hard to find a-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-
> cure?
> > THEY MAY GET CURED.....DUH.focused
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> or the same child may in fact
> show signs of a glutein/cassein allergy problem and by having
> research because these are common comorbidities/causational issuesto
> autism.Where
>
> -=-=-=-=-=
>
> Maybe. But wouldn't changing diet along with accepting the child
> He Is Today be just as effective?alergy
>
> -=-=-=-=-
> > How would you know about the possible alergy since a cassien
> tends to coinside with a desire for exactly the foods you are being-=-=-=--=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-
> hurt by?
> without the help to identify that need by having diagnostic testing
> done?
> accepting the child has nothing to do with a label!!!!!
> do you refer to your son as a boy, isnt that a label?
> your little girl as a daughter, doesnt that indicate labeling?
>
> My point is labels are not evil.
> Labels are bad. How they are wielded is worse. But that doesn'tmake
> the labels better.the
>
> Not accepting the child as whole and complete in the first place is
> problem.because
>
> -=-=-=-=-
> so if your child has a disease that is chronic but not life
> threatening you feel it is reasonable as a parent to accept the
> disease and embrace it without any attempts at treatment or
> mitigation of the pain or discomfort the child may experience
> of this careless attitude.-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>*just* a
> *Labeling* that tire iron as a weapon is the problem. If it's
> tire iron, with no label, it's a tire iron. Calling it a weaponmakes
> it seem dangerous and something to be avoided.BUT
>
> -=-=-=-=-
> HERE IT THE PINACLE OF WHAT EXACTLY I AM TALKING ABOUT
> GOD YOU MAKE THE POINT FOR ME....I CAN CALL THE TIRE IRON A ROSE
> IF I HIT YOU IN THE HEAD WITH IT IS DANGEROUS.that
>
> to indicate the word used to describe a thing is in any way more
> a collection of sounds used to communicate an idea is LUDICROUS!!with words like all tools because that is what words are a tool for
communication INTENT is the key. if your intent is foul the tool will
accomplish foul results, however if your intent is noble your tools
will mostly have noble results. (ignorance taking up the portion of
noble efforts that fail)
-=-=-=-=-=-
Paul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Labels are bad. How they are wielded is worse. But that doesn't make
the labels better.~~
I have a problem with this.
I don't think it's a black and white "bad" or "good" thing. It's an
"it depends". A label that is used to define a person isn't helpful. A
label that describes certain challenges or illnesses or whatever, CAN
assist understanding and give people better ways to support that person.
Maybe what you meant is that seeing a person as a label is bad?
Because I know many people who are very gentle, respectful parents who
were helped by a diagnoses and could better meet their child's needs.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
the labels better.~~
I have a problem with this.
I don't think it's a black and white "bad" or "good" thing. It's an
"it depends". A label that is used to define a person isn't helpful. A
label that describes certain challenges or illnesses or whatever, CAN
assist understanding and give people better ways to support that person.
Maybe what you meant is that seeing a person as a label is bad?
Because I know many people who are very gentle, respectful parents who
were helped by a diagnoses and could better meet their child's needs.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~I have to agree that one can "recover" from autism. ~~
Then I would venture to say that it isn't autism at all, rather
symptoms that mimicked autism.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Then I would venture to say that it isn't autism at all, rather
symptoms that mimicked autism.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
> >MANY HAVE!!!!!!!! look at Jenny McCarthy's son for an example inHmmm...what about all the children who have autism and never had a
> the public eye. read her book. maybe even look at her and jim
> carrey's march on washington right now to get the poisons out of our
> vaccination system.
single vaccination? The autism issue isn't so simple.
~~THEY MAY GET CURED.....DUH.~~
YOu know Paul, I'm not sure what kind of world you live in but in my
world this is very rude behavior. I think many people here might be
able to have a decent discussion with you if you were capable of
simply discussing rather than insulting.
You can disagree all you want, even strongly disagree but you can do
it without being so insulting or resorting to making it personal.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Kelli Johnston
Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what autism really is
at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best interests when defining
it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most standards. People should choose
to address the diagnosis differently depending on the child. I know there
are times that I think that he possibly didn't ever have autism in the
"classic" sense but if I didn't do anything.who knows where he would be
now..probably moderately autistic.who knows really. Is it just because I
changed something in his life and it worked mean it wasn't really autism?
How are we supposed to tell the difference? Kids are being vaccinated and
bombarded with antibiotics at birth..kids are eating a diet rich in
crap...our water is contaminated..our air is polluted. (???)
Kelli Johnston
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
~~I have to agree that one can "recover" from autism. ~~
Then I would venture to say that it isn't autism at all, rather
symptoms that mimicked autism.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best interests when defining
it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most standards. People should choose
to address the diagnosis differently depending on the child. I know there
are times that I think that he possibly didn't ever have autism in the
"classic" sense but if I didn't do anything.who knows where he would be
now..probably moderately autistic.who knows really. Is it just because I
changed something in his life and it worked mean it wasn't really autism?
How are we supposed to tell the difference? Kids are being vaccinated and
bombarded with antibiotics at birth..kids are eating a diet rich in
crap...our water is contaminated..our air is polluted. (???)
Kelli Johnston
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
~~I have to agree that one can "recover" from autism. ~~
Then I would venture to say that it isn't autism at all, rather
symptoms that mimicked autism.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what autism
really is at this point.~~
Everything is debatable, but I think that actual autism is a way you
are WIRED. Here's an article I like:
http://autisticbfh.blogspot.com/2008/04/autism-recovery-hoax.html
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
really is at this point.~~
Everything is debatable, but I think that actual autism is a way you
are WIRED. Here's an article I like:
http://autisticbfh.blogspot.com/2008/04/autism-recovery-hoax.html
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Kelli Johnston
Ren said: "Hmmm...what about all the children who have autism and never had
a
single vaccination? The autism issue isn't so simple."
I don't think it is simple either and there are probably a whole lot of
different reasons it is happening for different children. I just don't think
we should eliminate the idea that it is a recoverable disease for *some*
children. I certainly know parents that have tried almost everything with
little help. Either way, accepting the child for who they are is absolutely
the most important thing.
Kelli Johnston
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12789513/grpspId=1705081972/msgI
d=33598/stime=1212807036/nc1=4025291/nc2=5286672/nc3=5170411>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a
single vaccination? The autism issue isn't so simple."
I don't think it is simple either and there are probably a whole lot of
different reasons it is happening for different children. I just don't think
we should eliminate the idea that it is a recoverable disease for *some*
children. I certainly know parents that have tried almost everything with
little help. Either way, accepting the child for who they are is absolutely
the most important thing.
Kelli Johnston
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12789513/grpspId=1705081972/msgI
d=33598/stime=1212807036/nc1=4025291/nc2=5286672/nc3=5170411>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Johnston
Ren says:" Everything is debatable, but I think that actual autism is a way
you
are WIRED. Here's an article I like:
http://autisticbfh.blogspot.com/2008/04/autism-recovery-hoax.html"
So your argument is that the only true autistic children are the ones that
have difference in their brain wiring? I guess they should come up with a
different name for all the kids that have the same autistic symptoms but
recovered eventually through treatment?
Kelli Johnston
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you
are WIRED. Here's an article I like:
http://autisticbfh.blogspot.com/2008/04/autism-recovery-hoax.html"
So your argument is that the only true autistic children are the ones that
have difference in their brain wiring? I guess they should come up with a
different name for all the kids that have the same autistic symptoms but
recovered eventually through treatment?
Kelli Johnston
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I guess they should come up with a
different name for all the kids that have the same autistic symptoms but
recovered eventually through treatment?~~
Did you read the article? It explains my point of view about the
symptoms. That many children learn to cope and they CALL it a "cure".
I don't believe it's something to "recover" from. Some people have
metal poisonings or other issues and display autistic like tendencies.
Then there are autistic children who through growth and development
learn tools that give them better abilities to communicate etc...
That isn't a "cure".
If you read the article it answers all of the questions you are asking
me. That's my pov at the moment.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
different name for all the kids that have the same autistic symptoms but
recovered eventually through treatment?~~
Did you read the article? It explains my point of view about the
symptoms. That many children learn to cope and they CALL it a "cure".
I don't believe it's something to "recover" from. Some people have
metal poisonings or other issues and display autistic like tendencies.
Then there are autistic children who through growth and development
learn tools that give them better abilities to communicate etc...
That isn't a "cure".
If you read the article it answers all of the questions you are asking
me. That's my pov at the moment.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
swissarmy_wife
What is an epidemic, is the over use of the diagnosis.
--- In [email protected], "Kelli Johnston"
<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "Kelli Johnston"
<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:
>really is
> Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what autism
> at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best interests whendefining
> it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most standards.
Ren Allen
~~What is an epidemic, is the over use of the diagnosis.~~
Absolutely! Ties right back into what I said about pharmaceuticals
getting a six month extension on their patent if they study effects of
drugs on kids. Lovely eh?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Absolutely! Ties right back into what I said about pharmaceuticals
getting a six month extension on their patent if they study effects of
drugs on kids. Lovely eh?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 6, 2008, at 8:05 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II wrote:
simplistic answer to the question you thought you were answering.
If kids are having rage problems or problems dealing with social
clues or whatever difficulties living peacefully in their world, they
don't have months or years to wait for mom to figure out if it's
something internal or external or something they'll grow out of. They
need mom's support and focus right now in helping them cope with the
world.
Yes, of course, check into allergies, but if a parent focuses on the
child being broken, that the difficulties aren't the child's fault or
the parents fault but the fault of some chemical if only the mom
could figure out what it is ... the child suffers in the mean time. A
big hug, or sitting quietly with the child, or redirecting them, or
avoiding what the child can't deal with yet are a few things (among
many others) parents can do right now, in the moment.
there isn't one? Not helpful for the child who could very likely pick
up the message that there's nothing they can do but bear what's
troubling them until The Answer is found.
That doesn't help them at all right now.
Not labeling is a mental shift to help parents see the world in a way
that can help them help their kids better. Everyone knows how to
label things. We really don't need you to give us lessons. But what
most people need a lot more help with is in seeing things for what
they are beyond the label.
I had a friend with a child with Aspergers but when she listed his
"differences" an awful lot of them matched my daughter who is quite
average. A diagnosis didn't change the fact that both he and my
daughter couldn't be sent off with instructions to do something and
expect it to be done. If I wanted my daughter dressed I needed to go
with her and help her. That's just who she was (and is to a lesser
extent now).
He definitely had some differences but the label didn't change the
fact that he needed extra help with social cues.
Joyce
PS, Paul, if you can turn on "Plain Text" or something to help with
your formatting it would make it lots easier to read. I can see you
were trying with the dividers but the quote level feature wasn't
cooperating and the post was just a jumbled mess (in case it came
back to you looking fine.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What happens to the child while the parent fights so hard to find a-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-
> cure?
>> THEY MAY GET CURED.....DUH.And not only rude, but didn't answer the question asked and is a
simplistic answer to the question you thought you were answering.
If kids are having rage problems or problems dealing with social
clues or whatever difficulties living peacefully in their world, they
don't have months or years to wait for mom to figure out if it's
something internal or external or something they'll grow out of. They
need mom's support and focus right now in helping them cope with the
world.
Yes, of course, check into allergies, but if a parent focuses on the
child being broken, that the difficulties aren't the child's fault or
the parents fault but the fault of some chemical if only the mom
could figure out what it is ... the child suffers in the mean time. A
big hug, or sitting quietly with the child, or redirecting them, or
avoiding what the child can't deal with yet are a few things (among
many others) parents can do right now, in the moment.
>> THEY MAY GET CURED.....DUH.And after a mom spends hours, weeks, years searching for a cure and
there isn't one? Not helpful for the child who could very likely pick
up the message that there's nothing they can do but bear what's
troubling them until The Answer is found.
That doesn't help them at all right now.
> HERE IT THE PINACLE OF WHAT EXACTLY I AM TALKING ABOUTPlease don't shout at us.
> GOD YOU MAKE THE POINT FOR ME....I CAN CALL THE TIRE IRON A ROSE BUT
> IF I HIT YOU IN THE HEAD WITH IT IS DANGEROUS.
Not labeling is a mental shift to help parents see the world in a way
that can help them help their kids better. Everyone knows how to
label things. We really don't need you to give us lessons. But what
most people need a lot more help with is in seeing things for what
they are beyond the label.
I had a friend with a child with Aspergers but when she listed his
"differences" an awful lot of them matched my daughter who is quite
average. A diagnosis didn't change the fact that both he and my
daughter couldn't be sent off with instructions to do something and
expect it to be done. If I wanted my daughter dressed I needed to go
with her and help her. That's just who she was (and is to a lesser
extent now).
He definitely had some differences but the label didn't change the
fact that he needed extra help with social cues.
Joyce
PS, Paul, if you can turn on "Plain Text" or something to help with
your formatting it would make it lots easier to read. I can see you
were trying with the dividers but the quote level feature wasn't
cooperating and the post was just a jumbled mess (in case it came
back to you looking fine.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Johnston
I guess I don't agree, in light of my personal experience, that it is something you can say about all children on the spectrum. My son didn't learn to cope within a week to a month's time. I am sure there are ways that he has learned to cope (in certain areas) but I don't believe you can blanket statement that and ignore all the evidence in regard to biological/nutritional intervention.-Kelli
To: [email protected]: starsuncloud@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:43:39 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
~~I guess they should come up with adifferent name for all the kids that have the same autistic symptoms butrecovered eventually through treatment?~~Did you read the article? It explains my point of view about thesymptoms. That many children learn to cope and they CALL it a "cure".I don't believe it's something to "recover" from. Some people havemetal poisonings or other issues and display autistic like tendencies.Then there are autistic children who through growth and developmentlearn tools that give them better abilities to communicate etc...That isn't a "cure".If you read the article it answers all of the questions you are askingme. That's my pov at the moment.Renlearninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To: [email protected]: starsuncloud@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:43:39 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
~~I guess they should come up with adifferent name for all the kids that have the same autistic symptoms butrecovered eventually through treatment?~~Did you read the article? It explains my point of view about thesymptoms. That many children learn to cope and they CALL it a "cure".I don't believe it's something to "recover" from. Some people havemetal poisonings or other issues and display autistic like tendencies.Then there are autistic children who through growth and developmentlearn tools that give them better abilities to communicate etc...That isn't a "cure".If you read the article it answers all of the questions you are askingme. That's my pov at the moment.Renlearninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Johnston
that is your opinion and not a proven fact. I don't know anyone who got a diagnosis easily....funding is horrible. Plus they distinguish between aspergers and autism in their statistics. It is my opinion that is very very difficult to get a diagnosis as I haven't seen anything to prove contrary and I have lived all up and down California and Baltimore and I have spoken to many families all over the country. It is a constant struggle for most people to get services for their children.
To: [email protected]: heatherbean@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:52:13 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
What is an epidemic, is the over use of the diagnosis. --- In [email protected], "Kelli Johnston"<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:>> Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what autismreally is> at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best interests whendefining> it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most standards.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To: [email protected]: heatherbean@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:52:13 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
What is an epidemic, is the over use of the diagnosis. --- In [email protected], "Kelli Johnston"<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:>> Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what autismreally is> at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best interests whendefining> it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most standards.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
Well, you should live in my state then. People flock here for the
free services. I do believe we are number one(or in the top 3) for
children on behavior/mood altering meds. It's near impossible to NOT
get a diagnosis here. I've known a few transplants who admit that
they came here for the state services for their autistic children.
When registering to home school here, you have to prove that your
child is NOT disabled. When my child was in school they were trying
to find out what was wrong with him. More IEP's more money?
--- In [email protected], Kelli Johnston
<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:
between aspergers and autism in their statistics. It is my opinion
that is very very difficult to get a diagnosis as I haven't seen
anything to prove contrary and I have lived all up and down California
and Baltimore and I have spoken to many families all over the country.
It is a constant struggle for most people to get services for their
children.
wrote:>> Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what
autismreally is> at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best
interests whendefining> it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most
standards.
free services. I do believe we are number one(or in the top 3) for
children on behavior/mood altering meds. It's near impossible to NOT
get a diagnosis here. I've known a few transplants who admit that
they came here for the state services for their autistic children.
When registering to home school here, you have to prove that your
child is NOT disabled. When my child was in school they were trying
to find out what was wrong with him. More IEP's more money?
--- In [email protected], Kelli Johnston
<KelliJohnston@...> wrote:
>got a diagnosis easily....funding is horrible. Plus they distinguish
>
> that is your opinion and not a proven fact. I don't know anyone who
between aspergers and autism in their statistics. It is my opinion
that is very very difficult to get a diagnosis as I haven't seen
anything to prove contrary and I have lived all up and down California
and Baltimore and I have spoken to many families all over the country.
It is a constant struggle for most people to get services for their
children.
>+0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
>
> To: unschoolingbasics@...: heatherbean@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:52:13
>[email protected], "Kelli Johnston"<KelliJohnston@>
>
>
>
> What is an epidemic, is the over use of the diagnosis. --- In
wrote:>> Ren, I think it is debatable. They aren't really sure what
autismreally is> at this point. Everyone seems to have their own best
interests whendefining> it. Either way it is an "epidemic" my most
standards.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Ren Allen
~~My son didn't learn to cope within a week to a month's time. I am
sure there are ways that he has learned to cope (in certain areas) but
I don't believe you can blanket statement that and
ignore all the evidence in regard to biological/nutritional
intervention.~~
Nobody is ignoring evidence. Nor did I once say that in weeks or
months people learn coping tools. Years maybe. The entire point I'm
trying to make, apparently none too well, is that I don't believe that
autism is "curable", nor is it a disease to be cured from.
If a child gets help from nutritional intervention, then great. Every
child should have help finding what supports them best nutritionally.
I don't see that as a cure.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
sure there are ways that he has learned to cope (in certain areas) but
I don't believe you can blanket statement that and
ignore all the evidence in regard to biological/nutritional
intervention.~~
Nobody is ignoring evidence. Nor did I once say that in weeks or
months people learn coping tools. Years maybe. The entire point I'm
trying to make, apparently none too well, is that I don't believe that
autism is "curable", nor is it a disease to be cured from.
If a child gets help from nutritional intervention, then great. Every
child should have help finding what supports them best nutritionally.
I don't see that as a cure.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~It is a constant struggle for most people to get services for
their children.~~
Now you're talking about two different things here! A diagnoses is
EASY to get, services are a whole 'nuther ball game.
I believe parents can best provide those "services" anyway.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
their children.~~
Now you're talking about two different things here! A diagnoses is
EASY to get, services are a whole 'nuther ball game.
I believe parents can best provide those "services" anyway.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Carron Armstrong
I have a friend who's 16yo son was just diagnosed with Asperger's. Not to
apply any labels or anything, but this child I would call a bit quirky. He
interacts with people, but his social skills are a bit lacking. He
regularly says inappropriate things. In fact, many people have suggested to
my friend over the years that she might want to have him evaluated. She
resisted -- until this week. In the past six months, a lot of the teens in
his social circle have shyed away from him. He has become withdrawn and was
placed on meds for depression (I don't know what kind). Finally, my friend
had him evaluated. As a result of the evaluation, the professionals have
recommended a course of treatment or training, really.
She and her son are very relieved. They have a diagnoses and a plan of
action to help him learn the social skills that don't come naturally to
him.
I'm not saying that autism must be identified, labeled or even treated, but
many of us (most of whom would be labeled "normal") would benefit from some
type of intervention -- medical, psychological, physical, nutritional or
what have you. In my son's case, his diagnosis was Sensory Integration
Dysfunction or Sensory Processing Disorder. He had years of occupational
therapy. He reached all the milestones his OTs set for him. He is still
quirky. But most importantly, he's Zack. That's just him and his
personality. He won't be a jet pilot or a ballet dancer or a pro basketball
player. So what? Neither will I.
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see a diagnosis and "label" of autism as much
different from that of cancer or heart disease or despression. If it causes
discomfort, interferes with one's satisfaction with life, work or play, or
is life threatening, you find out what it is and do what you can to
alleviate it.
Carron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
apply any labels or anything, but this child I would call a bit quirky. He
interacts with people, but his social skills are a bit lacking. He
regularly says inappropriate things. In fact, many people have suggested to
my friend over the years that she might want to have him evaluated. She
resisted -- until this week. In the past six months, a lot of the teens in
his social circle have shyed away from him. He has become withdrawn and was
placed on meds for depression (I don't know what kind). Finally, my friend
had him evaluated. As a result of the evaluation, the professionals have
recommended a course of treatment or training, really.
She and her son are very relieved. They have a diagnoses and a plan of
action to help him learn the social skills that don't come naturally to
him.
I'm not saying that autism must be identified, labeled or even treated, but
many of us (most of whom would be labeled "normal") would benefit from some
type of intervention -- medical, psychological, physical, nutritional or
what have you. In my son's case, his diagnosis was Sensory Integration
Dysfunction or Sensory Processing Disorder. He had years of occupational
therapy. He reached all the milestones his OTs set for him. He is still
quirky. But most importantly, he's Zack. That's just him and his
personality. He won't be a jet pilot or a ballet dancer or a pro basketball
player. So what? Neither will I.
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see a diagnosis and "label" of autism as much
different from that of cancer or heart disease or despression. If it causes
discomfort, interferes with one's satisfaction with life, work or play, or
is life threatening, you find out what it is and do what you can to
alleviate it.
Carron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 7, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Carron Armstrong wrote:
was and what his needs are?
He was a child who needed extra social help whether he was diagnosed
and labeled or not.
If a child is having problems in social situations, whether they
would be diagnosed with autism or something else or nothing at all,
it's more immediately helpful to really look at the child and what
they're trying to do. Talk to the child and come up with strategies
and ways to handle the situation.
How much did she work with him to help him come up with strategies to
avoid stepping on toes?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> In the past six months, a lot of the teens inDid the diagnosis fix that, though? Did the diagnosis change who he
> his social circle have shyed away from him.
was and what his needs are?
He was a child who needed extra social help whether he was diagnosed
and labeled or not.
If a child is having problems in social situations, whether they
would be diagnosed with autism or something else or nothing at all,
it's more immediately helpful to really look at the child and what
they're trying to do. Talk to the child and come up with strategies
and ways to handle the situation.
How much did she work with him to help him come up with strategies to
avoid stepping on toes?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Johnston
Now, I agree with you on that! :)
I respect your opinion and I agree in some ways but I don't think it is wise to assume that diagnosis is easy to come by across the board. I also don't think that it is wise to assume that for some children "Autism" isn't a disease.I have had enough experience to believe otherwise.
To: [email protected]: starsuncloud@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:51:20 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
~~It is a constant struggle for most people to get services fortheir children.~~Now you're talking about two different things here! A diagnoses isEASY to get, services are a whole 'nuther ball game. I believe parents can best provide those "services" anyway.Renlearninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I respect your opinion and I agree in some ways but I don't think it is wise to assume that diagnosis is easy to come by across the board. I also don't think that it is wise to assume that for some children "Autism" isn't a disease.I have had enough experience to believe otherwise.
To: [email protected]: starsuncloud@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:51:20 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Discussion about labels...
~~It is a constant struggle for most people to get services fortheir children.~~Now you're talking about two different things here! A diagnoses isEASY to get, services are a whole 'nuther ball game. I believe parents can best provide those "services" anyway.Renlearninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Gray
And actually that's the big debate in the autism medical world right
now. Yes, they *should* all have different names. The people who
write the DSM agree that they should all have different names because
they have different causation. Different things help, for some it's
metal remediation, for some it's diet, for some, it's nothing. I know
several families who don't vax, are very organic, etc, and have very
very autistic kids. I know many many more who are very mainstream,
vax on the exact date their child ages up, eats crap all the time and
their kids are very neurotypical.
Don't get me started on the cure thing. Yeah, watch the video, he's
'cured' but he still flaps when he's excited. what's autism then?
I've known too many parents who want to say their child is 'cured'
but they are still autistic, they (the kids, not the parents) have
just been trained so well that most people can't tell. They are STILL
autistic. They still think differently, they still have quirky
behavior. Everyone talks about Temple Grandin being 'cured'. I can
assure you that she is not. Having seen her speak twice at
engagements where things didn't go right, she had a full blown
meltdown at the last one when her slide show didn't work. That's
cured autism. She does well most of the time with a lot of support
(she has a full time support staff to help her travel). But her brain
is still wired differently. And it's not bad.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
:
now. Yes, they *should* all have different names. The people who
write the DSM agree that they should all have different names because
they have different causation. Different things help, for some it's
metal remediation, for some it's diet, for some, it's nothing. I know
several families who don't vax, are very organic, etc, and have very
very autistic kids. I know many many more who are very mainstream,
vax on the exact date their child ages up, eats crap all the time and
their kids are very neurotypical.
Don't get me started on the cure thing. Yeah, watch the video, he's
'cured' but he still flaps when he's excited. what's autism then?
I've known too many parents who want to say their child is 'cured'
but they are still autistic, they (the kids, not the parents) have
just been trained so well that most people can't tell. They are STILL
autistic. They still think differently, they still have quirky
behavior. Everyone talks about Temple Grandin being 'cured'. I can
assure you that she is not. Having seen her speak twice at
engagements where things didn't go right, she had a full blown
meltdown at the last one when her slide show didn't work. That's
cured autism. She does well most of the time with a lot of support
(she has a full time support staff to help her travel). But her brain
is still wired differently. And it's not bad.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
:
> ~~I guess they should come up with a[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> different name for all the kids that have the same autistic
> symptoms but
> recovered eventually through treatment?~~
>
> .
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
I know where this conversation derails. Same place it does every
time ;-)
It *sounds* like unschoolers are saying "Don't ever get your child
diagnosed," as though it were some radical unschooling rule, and then
the counter-argument starts on why diagnosis is helpful.
But unschoolers are saying "You're facing the wrong way. Turn around
and face your child. Look at your child. What's he asking for help
with?" Diagnosis is a peripheral issue. Facing your child and being
sensitive and responsive to his needs is the central idea.
A diagnosis of Sensory Integration Disorder doesn't turn your child's
clothes inside out to avoid seams. Seeing your child for who his is,
seeing what *his* wants and *his* needs are and compassion does that.
Joyce
time ;-)
It *sounds* like unschoolers are saying "Don't ever get your child
diagnosed," as though it were some radical unschooling rule, and then
the counter-argument starts on why diagnosis is helpful.
But unschoolers are saying "You're facing the wrong way. Turn around
and face your child. Look at your child. What's he asking for help
with?" Diagnosis is a peripheral issue. Facing your child and being
sensitive and responsive to his needs is the central idea.
A diagnosis of Sensory Integration Disorder doesn't turn your child's
clothes inside out to avoid seams. Seeing your child for who his is,
seeing what *his* wants and *his* needs are and compassion does that.
Joyce