Karen Swanay

The district has moved the teacher to an office position and is
looking into it further. There was a firestorm of letter to the
school, district and news outlets last week that prompted the move.
We are hoping the teacher as well as the principal is fired.

Karen

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:38 PM, bapretzel_2 <bapretzel2@...> wrote:
> This so saddens me - gotta get the word out. Support Alex!

wisdomalways5

i keep trying to write a response to this thread and not sure just
how to do it-

on the one hand it was not in any way appropriate to "vote" on
removing a child from the classroom- clearly that part was wrong

on the other hand having the class express how this child's
behaviors were effecting them I think is SORT OF ok. How many
children are being robbed of their public education by teachers
dealing with differing special needs and behavior issues

public school is set up to deal with and handle children who are
pretty average who sit still and play well with other children- they
are not set up to handle 30 different acedemic-emotional-
psychological-phyisical and whatever else challenges- that come with
each child

Why people think schools are warm and fuzzy places is beyond me-
humiliation has been the main course there FOREVER- if you do not
fit in you are picked on and humiliated- I guess that is why I have
issues with "mainstreaming" do parents really think kids let alone
adults are "nice and fair and kind"

what this has to do with unschooling is escaping me

Julie


--- In [email protected], "bapretzel_2"
<bapretzel2@...> wrote:
>
> This so saddens me - gotta get the word out. Support Alex!
>
>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml
> -video
>
> http://aspergersquare8.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-special-support-
alex-
> barton.html
> -support alex
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4cytkm
> - Support Alex
>
>
> --C
>

Dory

--- Are you kidding me? It's the responsibility of every school to
meet every child's needs, no matter what the (dis)ability. Schools
are not supposed to be "set up" to meet only the needs of kids who
learn and behave well. It's every child's right to get a free and
appropriate education, that's the law.

Unfortunately, I have personal experience with parents, teachers, and
administrators who feel the same way you do. That because my child
is different, they don't want him there. I took him out for his own
benefit, not theirs. But the world sure would be a better place if
people could be more compassionate, understanding and nonjudgemental.

I hope you and your kids never have to go through the difficulties
that my sweet boy has. dory



In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
> i keep trying to write a response to this thread and not sure just
> how to do it-
>
> on the one hand it was not in any way appropriate to "vote" on
> removing a child from the classroom- clearly that part was wrong
>
> on the other hand having the class express how this child's
> behaviors were effecting them I think is SORT OF ok. How many
> children are being robbed of their public education by teachers
> dealing with differing special needs and behavior issues
>
> public school is set up to deal with and handle children who are
> pretty average who sit still and play well with other children-
they
> are not set up to handle 30 different acedemic-emotional-
> psychological-phyisical and whatever else challenges- that come
with
> each child
>
> Why people think schools are warm and fuzzy places is beyond me-
> humiliation has been the main course there FOREVER- if you do not
> fit in you are picked on and humiliated- I guess that is why I have
> issues with "mainstreaming" do parents really think kids let alone
> adults are "nice and fair and kind"
>
> what this has to do with unschooling is escaping me
>
> Julie
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "bapretzel_2"
> <bapretzel2@> wrote:
> >
> > This so saddens me - gotta get the word out. Support Alex!
> >
> >
>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml
> > -video
> >
> > http://aspergersquare8.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-special-support-
> alex-
> > barton.html
> > -support alex
> >
> > or
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/4cytkm
> > - Support Alex
> >
> >
> > --C
> >
>

Ren Allen

~~Are you kidding me? It's the responsibility of every school to
meet every child's needs, no matter what the (dis)ability. ~~


Baloney.
They'd have to hire many nurses and/or other medical staff to assist
many children all day long if that were the case. There are no laws
that insist schools meet every need of every child.

In fact, education laws are left to the individual states, there are
no federal laws concerning the education of children. Of course when
you tie federal money to those institutions, it's pretty easy to get
states to tow the line in regards to making schooling compulsory and
such.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

swissarmy_wife

> --- Are you kidding me? It's the responsibility of every school to
> meet every child's needs, no matter what the (dis)ability.

But do they? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, NO.

>Schools are not supposed to be "set up" to meet only the needs of
kids >who learn and behave well.

Yet, that's exactly what school is set up for.

>It's every child's right to get a free and appropriate education,
>that's the law.

It may be the law... but WHO exactly is defining "free and
appropriate"??? I pay some seriously high education taxes where i
live. And the "education" the kids receive is certainly not what i
would consider appropriate.

sunflowermom30

--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
> i keep trying to write a response to this thread and not sure just
> how to do it-
>
> on the one hand it was not in any way appropriate to "vote" on
> removing a child from the classroom- clearly that part was wrong
>
> on the other hand having the class express how this child's
> behaviors were effecting them I think is SORT OF ok. How many
> children are being robbed of their public education by teachers
> dealing with differing special needs and behavior issues


different approach to this...i read an article which better explained
what the teacher was trying to do and while i still feel she was very
wrong in what she did, it didn't seem quite as evil as some of the
original articles i read painted her out to be.

the thing here is...you're talking a 5 yr old...her intentions to
have the child in question understand how his behavior affects the
rest of the class were very developmentally INappropriate...at that
age, they are just not going to get that out of it. a "normal" 5yr
old wouldn't be able to understand fully how his behavior affects
others...much less a special needs 5 yr old.

i'm guessing the teacher was at whit's end dealing with a child who's
behavior was something she wasn't trained to deal with. the article i
read said that this day this happened he had already been sent twice
to the principle's office for extremely distruptive class behavior.
i'm guessing she was at the end of her rope that day and just didn't
know how to deal with him and sadly the outcome was so completely
inappropriate. i certainly have my moments like that with my own
children...i cannot imagine having to deal with the sort of things
public school teachers have to deal with on a daily basis and with so
many more children of such different abilities and needs and
behaviors.

i don't know that she deserves to be fired...from what i've read,
sounds like she needs to have some special training on what's
developmenatally appropriate for the age she's dealing with and
especailly some training on how to handle a child with possible
aspergers. either way, she was wrong, but i don't think she was as
evil as the media and the mom are painting her out to be. but i know
i would probably react the same way the mom is...mama bear and all.

yet another reason to homeschool. this sort of garbage isn't uncommon
and the schools are ill equipped to deal with children in general,
much less special needs children. sure they SHOULD be, but they
aren't.



tina

Dory

--- I was speaking of educational needs. According to IDEA, every
child has the right to a free and appropriate education.

So, kids who have medical needs should not have a right to an
education?


dory


In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
>
> ~~Are you kidding me? It's the responsibility of every school to
> meet every child's needs, no matter what the (dis)ability. ~~
>
>
> Baloney.
> They'd have to hire many nurses and/or other medical staff to assist
> many children all day long if that were the case. There are no laws
> that insist schools meet every need of every child.
>
> In fact, education laws are left to the individual states, there are
> no federal laws concerning the education of children. Of course when
> you tie federal money to those institutions, it's pretty easy to get
> states to tow the line in regards to making schooling compulsory and
> such.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Dory" <carzmom2000@...>
wrote:
>
> --- Are you kidding me? It's the responsibility of every school
to
> meet every child's needs, no matter what the (dis)ability.

how do you think this could possibly happen- you have maybe 30 kids
in a class and 5-7 may have "behavioral" issues- one might be blind-
3 might not speak the language and 2 might be so ahead they are
bored and some more are so behind they have no clue- the average
ones wonder what they are supposed to be doing- NOBODY can get any
education in that enviroment- babysitting maybe- but not much more

how would a school meet those issues and teach the cild anything

schools are NOT set up to meet needs they are there to take care of
a certain child with certain characteristics- average-

it would be NICE for them to be somehow able to meet all needs but
it is just not possible

I took my 5th grader out of school because he could not read and
write and the school had NO ability to help him with what HE needs
and school is set up to teach kids to read and write- but not my
child who would have been a late reader writer and did not FIT IN

kids do not FIT the mold for a million reasons and in reality there
is NO way a school system can take care of all those needs which is
why the right to homeschool your child is so important

Julie

Schools
> are not supposed to be "set up" to meet only the needs of kids who
> learn and behave well. It's every child's right to get a free and
> appropriate education, that's the law.
>
> Unfortunately, I have personal experience with parents, teachers,
and
> administrators who feel the same way you do. That because my
child
> is different, they don't want him there. I took him out for his
own
> benefit, not theirs. But the world sure would be a better place
if
> people could be more compassionate, understanding and
nonjudgemental.
>
> I hope you and your kids never have to go through the difficulties
> that my sweet boy has. dory
>
>
>
> In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
> <wisdom1133@> wrote:
> >
> > i keep trying to write a response to this thread and not sure
just
> > how to do it-
> >
> > on the one hand it was not in any way appropriate to "vote" on
> > removing a child from the classroom- clearly that part was wrong
> >
> > on the other hand having the class express how this child's
> > behaviors were effecting them I think is SORT OF ok. How many
> > children are being robbed of their public education by teachers
> > dealing with differing special needs and behavior issues
> >
> > public school is set up to deal with and handle children who are
> > pretty average who sit still and play well with other children-
> they
> > are not set up to handle 30 different acedemic-emotional-
> > psychological-phyisical and whatever else challenges- that come
> with
> > each child
> >
> > Why people think schools are warm and fuzzy places is beyond me-
> > humiliation has been the main course there FOREVER- if you do
not
> > fit in you are picked on and humiliated- I guess that is why I
have
> > issues with "mainstreaming" do parents really think kids let
alone
> > adults are "nice and fair and kind"
> >
> > what this has to do with unschooling is escaping me
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "bapretzel_2"
> > <bapretzel2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This so saddens me - gotta get the word out. Support Alex!
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml
> > > -video
> > >
> > > http://aspergersquare8.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-special-
support-
> > alex-
> > > barton.html
> > > -support alex
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/4cytkm
> > > - Support Alex
> > >
> > >
> > > --C
> > >
> >
>

Judy R

and that's what home-schooling is all about, right? And *we* can see this but so many people can't...
----- Original Message -----
From: wisdomalways5
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:11 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: 5 yr old boy voted out of class by teacher/students-xpost/Julie


--- In [email protected], "Dory" <carzmom2000@...>
wrote:
>
> --- Are you kidding me? It's the responsibility of every school
to
> meet every child's needs, no matter what the (dis)ability.

how do you think this could possibly happen- you have maybe 30 kids
in a class and 5-7 may have "behavioral" issues- one might be blind-
3 might not speak the language and 2 might be so ahead they are
bored and some more are so behind they have no clue- the average
ones wonder what they are supposed to be doing- NOBODY can get any
education in that enviroment- babysitting maybe- but not much more

how would a school meet those issues and teach the cild anything

schools are NOT set up to meet needs they are there to take care of
a certain child with certain characteristics- average-

it would be NICE for them to be somehow able to meet all needs but
it is just not possible

I took my 5th grader out of school because he could not read and
write and the school had NO ability to help him with what HE needs
and school is set up to teach kids to read and write- but not my
child who would have been a late reader writer and did not FIT IN

kids do not FIT the mold for a million reasons and in reality there
is NO way a school system can take care of all those needs which is
why the right to homeschool your child is so important

Julie

Schools
> are not supposed to be "set up" to meet only the needs of kids who
> learn and behave well. It's every child's right to get a free and
> appropriate education, that's the law.
>
> Unfortunately, I have personal experience with parents, teachers,
and
> administrators who feel the same way you do. That because my
child
> is different, they don't want him there. I took him out for his
own
> benefit, not theirs. But the world sure would be a better place
if
> people could be more compassionate, understanding and
nonjudgemental.
>
> I hope you and your kids never have to go through the difficulties
> that my sweet boy has. dory
>
>
>
> In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
> <wisdom1133@> wrote:
> >
> > i keep trying to write a response to this thread and not sure
just
> > how to do it-
> >
> > on the one hand it was not in any way appropriate to "vote" on
> > removing a child from the classroom- clearly that part was wrong
> >
> > on the other hand having the class express how this child's
> > behaviors were effecting them I think is SORT OF ok. How many
> > children are being robbed of their public education by teachers
> > dealing with differing special needs and behavior issues
> >
> > public school is set up to deal with and handle children who are
> > pretty average who sit still and play well with other children-
> they
> > are not set up to handle 30 different acedemic-emotional-
> > psychological-phyisical and whatever else challenges- that come
> with
> > each child
> >
> > Why people think schools are warm and fuzzy places is beyond me-
> > humiliation has been the main course there FOREVER- if you do
not
> > fit in you are picked on and humiliated- I guess that is why I
have
> > issues with "mainstreaming" do parents really think kids let
alone
> > adults are "nice and fair and kind"
> >
> > what this has to do with unschooling is escaping me
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "bapretzel_2"
> > <bapretzel2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This so saddens me - gotta get the word out. Support Alex!
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml
> > > -video
> > >
> > > http://aspergersquare8.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-special-
support-
> > alex-
> > > barton.html
> > > -support alex
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/4cytkm
> > > - Support Alex
> > >
> > >
> > > --C
> > >
> >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 30, 2008, at 5:11 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> In fact, education laws are left to the individual states, there are
> no federal laws concerning the education of children. Of course when
> you tie federal money to those institutions, it's pretty easy to get
> states to tow the line in regards to making schooling compulsory and
> such.

When it comes to children with disabilities, IDEA (The Individuals
with Disabilities Education Act) applies to states and local districts
whether or not they accept funding from the federal government (unlike
No Child Left Behind).

It mandates that all children will be provided with an appropriate
education in the least restrictive environment possible - in the most
"natural setting" - which means local school, in a regular classroom,
if at all possible.

So, indeed, special needs kids have a legal right to be there and to
receive all services that are needed to allow them to receive the same
education provided to all other students.

MANY people feel driven into homeschooling, not by their own choice,
but because the schools don't meet their kids' needs. But, many others
spend their children's entire childhoods trying to get services.
Schools don't often willingly abide by the full scope of IDEA,
obviously. Parents sometimes spend thousands of dollars in legal fees
fighting for the services that IDEA mandates - it is an entire
specialty of the legal profession, these days. And the parents are
often unsuccessful - the schools have experience and time on their
side. Kids grow up while parents are fighting for those services.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Dory" <carzmom2000@...>
wrote:
>
> --- I was speaking of educational needs. According to IDEA, every
> child has the right to a free and appropriate education.
>
> So, kids who have medical needs should not have a right to an
> education?
>
>
> dory
>

there is a difference between the "right to an education" and the
right to attend school- any kid with any issue has the right to
attend public school- but just because they can attend does not mean
that they are getting any needs met or an education

most people who say "right to an education" are really meaning the
right to have the child physically sit in a seat in a classroom

kids with any needs are not going to get them met in public
education- as I said my son was in school to learn to read and write
and he could do very little of either- those are educational needs
and they were not able to get those met.

how many special services can one school or one teacher meet?
why should one needy child be "helped" over another and how do you
choose which needs should or could be met-

Julie

bapretzel_2

That makes a lot of sense. It doesn't matter whether
someone has been diagnosed or not, they may or may
not get their needs met, that's the risk of pub school.

I included a link to a website that had an address &
email to send support to Alex & his family. I was
hoping folks might be moved to send support his way. I
envision our letter reaching them, which will explain that
Natalie can behave in all kidns of ways that might
irritate a teacher or classroom because of it's conditions,
yet she gets to relish her childhood and grow up free.
I'm visualizing the parents leaving school based on
the flood of support we provide! Probably just a pipe
dream, huh?

Natalie & I chatted about this, she DID comment,
immediately, that she understood the teacher's goal of
helping Alex see how his behavior impacts others.

I think she recognizes it because we do this in our home. I
will say, "when you scream it hurts my ears" or
something. She does the same thing to me. It just
doesn't come across that way in the articles, that
the teacher was being very sensitive with language
choices, especially when I doubt most 5 yr olds
have learned to express how behaviors affect
them without just calling names.

Anyway, you're right, this isn't really an unschooling
topic - sorry for OT'ing and I hope this doesn't bring
anyone down! I hope the boy gets some extra support
from this discussion, though!


-C


--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Dory" <carzmom2000@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- I was speaking of educational needs. According to IDEA,
every
> > child has the right to a free and appropriate education.
> >
> > So, kids who have medical needs should not have a right to an
> > education?
> >
> >
> > dory
> >
>
> there is a difference between the "right to an education" and the
> right to attend school- any kid with any issue has the right to
> attend public school- but just because they can attend does not
mean
> that they are getting any needs met or an education
>
> most people who say "right to an education" are really meaning the
> right to have the child physically sit in a seat in a classroom
>
> kids with any needs are not going to get them met in public
> education- as I said my son was in school to learn to read and
write
> and he could do very little of either- those are educational needs
> and they were not able to get those met.
>
> how many special services can one school or one teacher meet?
> why should one needy child be "helped" over another and how do you
> choose which needs should or could be met-
>
> Julie
>

Ren Allen

~~So, indeed, special needs kids have a legal right to be there and to
receive all services that are needed to allow them to receive the same
education provided to all other students.~~

How are they supposed to deal with a child that has a need to be
catheterized? Or needs other physical needs met that can't be met
except by a medical professional? I don't see how a school could
possibly be expected to meet those needs.

Schools can't meet the needs of the "average" child so why on earth
would people expect a school to try and meet anyone with higher needs?
Argh.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~
So, kids who have medical needs should not have a right to an
education?~~

That wasn't the point. Everyone has a right to an education....but I
don't believe we have the right to expect a governmental institution
to meet the needs of every individual. To expect that is to give up
personal freedom! The very essence of unschooling is to quit depending
on others for "education" or any such thing and do it for yourself.

A child with very specific medical needs should have help with that. I
wouldn't want to trust a school to provide that nor expect them to
meet those very specific needs. Those things we tend to think we have
"rights" about are usually things that society gives up a lot of
personal freedom in order to attain.

What if people quit trying to extract support from the government and
spent their time and energy just DOING what it is they need? Better
spent energy in my opinion.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 30, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> ~~So, indeed, special needs kids have a legal right to be there and to
> receive all services that are needed to allow them to receive the same
> education provided to all other students.~~
>
> How are they supposed to deal with a child that has a need to be
> catheterized? Or needs other physical needs met that can't be met
> except by a medical professional? I don't see how a school could
> possibly be expected to meet those needs.

They are expected to do so - and they have to pay for aides if they
are needed. My sister has such kids in her elementary school
classroom. They sometimes come with personal aides to handle medical
stuff - usually paid for by county services. The school district pays
for some of the aides. She DOES have to do things one would expect
only medical professionals would ever have to do, though. The
elementary school where she teaches is the school where all the kids
with orthopedic disabilities go, because they have lots of special
equipment there. These kids come with lots of other issues, as well,
though. She has blind children, children with cerebral palsy, children
who are paraplegic and quadraplegic. She has kids who wear helmets,
kids who have to be fed, kids who have diapers. Her kids are not in a
regular classroom, but most of them go into regular classrooms the
next year.

Again, the parents typically have to fight for the services they have
a legal right to under IDEA. Those who get an attorney and wage a
legal battle are very frequently the ones who get the services. My
other sister got a lawyer and sued her school district and the
district had to pay to send her daughter to a school that had services
that the local school district couldn't provide for her. Lots of kids
go to private schools that are paid for by public school funds, too.

Anyway - the connection to homeschooling is that lots of people choose
to homeschool rather than fight for services that are slow in coming
and usually inadequate anyway. These are parents who are trying to get
what is a "legal right" to have their children receive the same
education they would have received if they didn't have a disability.
They are usually so fixated on getting that, they don't notice what a
crappy education it is they are fighting for. Lots of times they end
up homeschooling sort of against their will - they give up on getting
services and school is impossible without the services so they resort
to homeschooling out of desperation, not out of conviction that
homeschooling is the wonderful amazing awesome option that it is.

Sometimes unschooling is the only thing that even makes sense - the
kids are so clearly unique that it is obvious that the parents have no
choice but to support the child's learning in his/her own way.

-pam


-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 30, 2008, at 7:38 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> What if people quit trying to extract support from the government and
> spent their time and energy just DOING what it is they need? Better
> spent energy in my opinion.


WAY better. Seriously, the kids who get all the services are not
better off - lots of times the parents have fought so hard for those
services that they feel they have to stick with school even when it
becomes obvious that it is STILL not a good place for that child.

The underlying primary purpose of the special ed classroom, at least
in elementary school, is always to get the child prepared to be
mainstreamed, no matter the extent of medical or developmental/mental
disability. Unschooling would allow these families to focus on what
really matters - not being able to function, minimally, in a
classroom, but being able to function in real life in a meaningful way.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~They are usually so fixated on getting that, they don't notice what a
crappy education it is they are fighting for. ~~

That's what I have a really hard time understanding. All the energy it
takes to fight vs. embracing a life that truly meets the child's needs.
I guess feeling like one is entitled to a government program is part
of what our society is based upon...but something I just don't
understand at any level.

Now getting entrances and public buildings/walkways to meet more
needs? THAT makes sense to me. Trying to get my Mum around in a
wheelchair was a nightmare mostly because nobody really thinks about
planning for them in most places. Trying to get a school to meet
specialized needs when they can't even begin to in reality? Nope.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Carron Armstrong

I understand that IDEA does not require that states abide by all of its
provisions, but only that they provide certain minimum standards or
accomodations. And, it also has a laundry list of disabilities covered, but
some are not. Pam, is that your understanding, too?

When my son was 4, his preschool teacher called me because he had crawled
into the corner, curled up in the fetal position and lashed out at anyone
who came near him (this was not the first time). We had him evaluated, and
he was diagnosed with Sensory Integration Disorder. Because of his sensory
issues, he could not abide the noise and frentic activity of a traditional
classroom. Yet, our local school system informed us that SI was not one of
the covered disabilities, and they were not required to provide him any
special education services at all. According to our occupational therapist,
not one SI child had been successful in convincing the district otherwise
and that remains true to this day, although they do provide early
intervention services to infants, toddlers and preschoolers with sensory
issues. Go figure. On the other hand, a school district just 10 miles away
provided special education services to SI children.

Imagine what a disruption my child would have been in a traditional
classroom. We felt we had no choice but to keep him home and start
homeschooling, at least for the short time. That was more than 10 years
ago, and we've been happily unschooling since. He had years of occupational
therapy (on our dime -- and not covered by insurance) and matured very
nicely.

But what if I had put in school anyway? My God, I shutter to think what
would have happened to him.

Carron

Carron

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:

>
> On May 30, 2008, at 5:11 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> > In fact, education laws are left to the individual states, there are
> > no federal laws concerning the education of children. Of course when
> > you tie federal money to those institutions, it's pretty easy to get
> > states to tow the line in regards to making schooling compulsory and
> > such.
>
> When it comes to children with disabilities, IDEA (The Individuals
> with Disabilities Education Act) applies to states and local districts
> whether or not they accept funding from the federal government (unlike
> No Child Left Behind).
>
> It mandates that all children will be provided with an appropriate
> education in the least restrictive environment possible - in the most
> "natural setting" - which means local school, in a regular classroom,
> if at all possible.
>
> So, indeed, special needs kids have a legal right to be there and to
> receive all services that are needed to allow them to receive the same
> education provided to all other students.
>
> MANY people feel driven into homeschooling, not by their own choice,
> but because the schools don't meet their kids' needs. But, many others
> spend their children's entire childhoods trying to get services.
> Schools don't often willingly abide by the full scope of IDEA,
> obviously. Parents sometimes spend thousands of dollars in legal fees
> fighting for the services that IDEA mandates - it is an entire
> specialty of the legal profession, these days. And the parents are
> often unsuccessful - the schools have experience and time on their
> side. Kids grow up while parents are fighting for those services.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 31, 2008, at 1:29 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> That's what I have a really hard time understanding. All the energy it
> takes to fight vs. embracing a life that truly meets the child's
> needs.

Because they don't trust themselves to provide what a child needs and
don't trust that the child's needs are enough to prepare them to make
it in the world. The majority of parents are convinced experts are
needed to provide what a child needs. Most of them were convinced by
having to be in school. Maybe school didn't make a lot of sense to
them, but they had to trust that the experts knew what they were
doing and they were just clueless because they weren't experts. If
that wasn't true, then they were wasting their childhoods. So they
had to believe.

It's such a disempowering feeling to believe that your senses and
intuition aren't enough to know what's necessary, and that you need
specialized knowledge to help.

Perhaps what they need are some unschoolers to open up services and
call them something like "Helping Families Help Themselves." People
have a hard time knowing that it's possible unless there are people
around them showing them it's possible :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dory

--- That's why we decided to pull our son out and hs. It just wasn't
worth it. I soon realized that all the "experts" knew nothing. I am
the expert on my child and they did not accept that.
He's had a year to decompress and recover from two very difficult
year in ps. We are now free to work on the areas that he needs the
most support in through our daily living. It's not something I had
ever pictured doing, but I'm blessed to be able to provide it for my
boy. It would be lovely to have an unschooling mentor! dory


In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 31, 2008, at 1:29 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> > That's what I have a really hard time understanding. All the
energy it
> > takes to fight vs. embracing a life that truly meets the child's
> > needs.
>
> Because they don't trust themselves to provide what a child needs
and
> don't trust that the child's needs are enough to prepare them to
make
> it in the world. The majority of parents are convinced experts are
> needed to provide what a child needs. Most of them were convinced
by
> having to be in school. Maybe school didn't make a lot of sense to
> them, but they had to trust that the experts knew what they were
> doing and they were just clueless because they weren't experts. If
> that wasn't true, then they were wasting their childhoods. So they
> had to believe.
>
> It's such a disempowering feeling to believe that your senses and
> intuition aren't enough to know what's necessary, and that you
need
> specialized knowledge to help.
>
> Perhaps what they need are some unschoolers to open up services
and
> call them something like "Helping Families Help Themselves."
People
> have a hard time knowing that it's possible unless there are
people
> around them showing them it's possible :-)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Lisa

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
Seriously, the kids who get all the services are not better off -
lots of times the parents have fought so hard for those services
that they feel they have to stick with school even when it
> becomes obvious that it is STILL not a good place for that child.

Unschooling would allow these families to focus on what really
matters - not being able to function, minimally, in a classroom, but
being able to function in real life in a meaningful way.
>
> -pam


I totally agree with what Pam wrote. Kids who get services are not
necessarily better off. Our son was evaluated as developmentally
delayed by 2 years in nearly every area measured. He spent 2+ years
in Special Education pre-K classrooms and 1 year in Kindergarten. He
received Speech, Physical, and Occupational Therapy from the school,
and also outside Speech and Physical Therapy. We struggled every
year to get Individual Education Plans that made sense - because the
therapists would set goals that he could already achieve.... (Gosh,
it sure is easy to show progress/success that way.) When he went to
Kindergarten (mainstream) he had an Inclusion Teacher (separate from
the K teacher) who was dedicated to help certain kids in the
classroom and he had accomodations for tests. Even so, Kindergarten
was a yukky experience. He could not keep pace, and so he frequently
brought class work to finish at home, in addition to homework.
Homework was an hour or more of struggle everyday. He also frequently
brought home negative behavioral marks, which were usually poorly
explained by the teacher. I actually keep a copy of the "classroom
rules" on my nightstand in case my resolve to unschool ever weakens
<g>.

I honestly believe that he would have been better served if he had
been home those 3+ years. In hindsight, I regret the choice we made.
However, this experience did lead us to homeshooling, which led us to
unschooling. That is a positive outcome. I trust that he will recover
some of what he lost in school because he is young (7).

My observation is that services for kids, whether through the school
or privately paid, are not always high quality. And, you have much
less influence with school-affiliated service providers than you do
with private providers. I also believe that parents can provide many
of the same learning opportunities that therapists provide.
Therapists may be specialists, but that does not make their skills
unattainable to someone motivated to help their own child.

Lisa

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~They are usually so fixated on getting that, they don't notice
what a
> crappy education it is they are fighting for. ~~
>
> That's what I have a really hard time understanding. All the
energy it
> takes to fight vs. embracing a life that truly meets the child's
needs.
> I guess feeling like one is entitled to a government program is
part
> of what our society is based upon...but something I just don't
> understand at any level.


I think a lot of it may also be that we are so indoctrinated that we
need school. Parents don't think they are competent to provide their
children with an adequate education. That's something special that
only teachers can do in schools.

Alysia

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 30, 2008, at 10:33 PM, Carron Armstrong wrote:

> I understand that IDEA does not require that states abide by all of
> its
> provisions, but only that they provide certain minimum standards or
> accomodations. And, it also has a laundry list of disabilities
> covered, but
> some are not. Pam, is that your understanding, too?

Yes. But it is EXTREMELY complicated and nobody really knows what
would be considered covered and what would not, since a judge can
decide that, ultimately. Schools are quite often the sources of
misinformation and half-information and will most definitely withhold
services that are mandated by law if they can find a way to do it. My
sister, a special ed teacher, has to choose her battles. She just
recently had a blind child placed in her classroom - a classroom with
kids in wheelchairs, flat on their backs, with crutches and braces,
attached to various kinds of medical equipment - lots and lots of
other paraphernalia. No aide. It is just too much for the blind child
- too many things to bump into - all things that are moving around all
the time. So my sister is fighting to get an aide in there to be with
the child. There are other kids who could use aides, too, but she
knows she'll only be able to get one, so that's the one she's "going
for."

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
>> Schools can't meet the needs of the "average" child so why on earth
> would people expect a school to try and meet anyone with higher needs?
> Argh.
>
>
This is certainly true,
yet the schools and professionals (including the Dr.that advises the
parent) will demand that school is compulsory, that the only way to
get certain special needs programs is through the public school system.
-Kelly

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Dory <carzmom2000@...>

--- That's why we decided to pull our son out and hs. It just wasn't
worth it. I soon realized that all the "experts" knew nothing. I am
the expert on my child and they did not accept that.

-=-=-=-=-

Understanding that the *child* is an expert on that child will help a
lot! <g>

We can be really good observers, but we're only experts on ourselves.
<G>

-=-=-=-=-=-

It would be lovely to have an unschooling mentor!

-=-=-=-=-

Well, there's a BUNCH right here! <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Lisa

I do a lot of work as an advocate and as a consultant with parents of
special needs children in the school system. In my previous life I was
a teacher and went to grad school for special education because of
what I saw happening in the classroom. I gave up the classroom many
years ago but am happy to now use my powers for good! HA!

What I see happening and what happened to me briefly before I came to
my senses is that you get so caught up in the fight and trying to win
and make them do what the law says they must that you begin operating
with blinders on! I lost sight of the amount of energy and time I
was investing in fighting and not being with my child and family.
Also I wasn't being rational about what kind of services I would
really get if I "won" from a system and individuals that DID NOT WANT
TO DO THEIR JOBS! We have had some wonderful folks work with my
child along the way but again the administrators want to save dollars
so if denying your child services and getting away with it (they do
this a lot hoping that parents don't know any better) is what it takes
to keep their program running they will do it.

When you have parents also (I see this A LOT in my area) who are both
working and think they both have to work (to pay for the summer home,
two brand new cars, country club membership, latest fashions
&electronics not daily essentials) it never occurs to them that they
could live more simply and take better care of and educate their child
at home. Some also are so invested in the system and thinking that
the professionals know more that they stop using all parts of their
brains to really think about how well their child is or is not doing.

The school system told me my child was HOPELESS.... at age FOUR!
Were they right or were they just trying to set me up to be thrilled
if she did learn something and show what geniuses they all were?? (we
didn't stick around to find out!) She's now 13 and far from hopeless
and not only is our family invested in the process of her exploring
the world and taking what she can from it but SHE is invested in the
process and has her own ideas about what she needs and wants in life.
No IEP would have ever given her that!

Lisa Blocker

Judy R

Thank you for these wonderful insights! It puts so much of our past schooling expereinces in perspective! Judy R
----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 9:30 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: 5 yr old boy voted out of class by teacher/students-xpost/Julie


I do a lot of work as an advocate and as a consultant with parents of
special needs children in the school system. In my previous life I was
a teacher and went to grad school for special education because of
what I saw happening in the classroom. I gave up the classroom many
years ago but am happy to now use my powers for good! HA!

What I see happening and what happened to me briefly before I came to
my senses is that you get so caught up in the fight and trying to win
and make them do what the law says they must that you begin operating
with blinders on! I lost sight of the amount of energy and time I
was investing in fighting and not being with my child and family.
Also I wasn't being rational about what kind of services I would
really get if I "won" from a system and individuals that DID NOT WANT
TO DO THEIR JOBS! We have had some wonderful folks work with my
child along the way but again the administrators want to save dollars
so if denying your child services and getting away with it (they do
this a lot hoping that parents don't know any better) is what it takes
to keep their program running they will do it.

When you have parents also (I see this A LOT in my area) who are both
working and think they both have to work (to pay for the summer home,
two brand new cars, country club membership, latest fashions
&electronics not daily essentials) it never occurs to them that they
could live more simply and take better care of and educate their child
at home. Some also are so invested in the system and thinking that
the professionals know more that they stop using all parts of their
brains to really think about how well their child is or is not doing.

The school system told me my child was HOPELESS.... at age FOUR!
Were they right or were they just trying to set me up to be thrilled
if she did learn something and show what geniuses they all were?? (we
didn't stick around to find out!) She's now 13 and far from hopeless
and not only is our family invested in the process of her exploring
the world and taking what she can from it but SHE is invested in the
process and has her own ideas about what she needs and wants in life.
No IEP would have ever given her that!

Lisa Blocker





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Lisa -
Thank you for the work you do! I'm sure there are families living MUCH
better lives because of you!

I hope you're writing articles about your experience. People NEED to
hear it!

-Pam



On Jun 1, 2008, at 6:30 AM, Lisa wrote:

> The school system told me my child was HOPELESS.... at age FOUR!
> Were they right or were they just trying to set me up to be thrilled
> if she did learn something and show what geniuses they all were?? (we
> didn't stick around to find out!) She's now 13 and far from hopeless
> and not only is our family invested in the process of her exploring
> the world and taking what she can from it but SHE is invested in the
> process and has her own ideas about what she needs and wants in life.
> No IEP would have ever given her that!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

Well, I guess he goes to your space and does it there with whatever children want to do it - so for us, for instance he could choose one of his workshops, we'd advertise it and see how many kids we could get for it - we might do that instead of a small production - or he may be interested in doing one of the smaller productions...don't know exactly,....bit Ithink he's a probably a way better long term possibility than Judy, maybe...
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: 5 yr old boy voted out of class by teacher/students-xpost/Julie


Lisa -
Thank you for the work you do! I'm sure there are families living MUCH
better lives because of you!

I hope you're writing articles about your experience. People NEED to
hear it!

-Pam

On Jun 1, 2008, at 6:30 AM, Lisa wrote:

> The school system told me my child was HOPELESS.... at age FOUR!
> Were they right or were they just trying to set me up to be thrilled
> if she did learn something and show what geniuses they all were?? (we
> didn't stick around to find out!) She's now 13 and far from hopeless
> and not only is our family invested in the process of her exploring
> the world and taking what she can from it but SHE is invested in the
> process and has her own ideas about what she needs and wants in life.
> No IEP would have ever given her that!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]