jlouiser

sorry for cross posts

I mentioned that one of our teenaged boys is into grafitti and that
we allow him to do it in the back of the house and the basement - (we
also discuss stuff like is it OK to grafitti buildings and why or why
not) this is the first thing he has shown some independent interest
in and it has some good "RU" stuff in it - making the different
tools, trying out different colours and spray sizes, etc - however,
part of the subculture ethos is that you must steal your paint. He
has told me about when he stole some from the $ store and from
Canadian tire...so I try not to freak out and try to engage him in
dialogue about stealing which mostly ends up in me telling him why I
think it is wrong (basically, you are taking something that is not
yours, it can hurt others by depriving them of their livelihood,
etc) - and the most forceful argument that his mother came up with is
that if any one of our teenagers gets in trouble with the "law", we
are worried that CAS might get called in - 2 single moms, 5
teenagers, living in a house together and unschoooling, one on
assistance....we are hoping that that argument will sway him...so far
he hasn't done it again (or at least hasn't told me, but he seems to
*want* to tell me)...but any insights people have about talking to
kids about stealing would be great...

The other issue that I would love comments and thoughts and previous
experiences with is underage drinking - same kid, thinks drinking is
really cool and really wants to do it, and has a bit - doesn't help
that he has an 18-year-old brother that also lives with us that has a
stash....anyway, any and all input welcomed! Judy R. in Kingston ps
kid in question is 13 1/2

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: jlouiser <jroberts@...>

however,
part of the subculture ethos is that you must steal your paint. He
has told me about when he stole some from the $ store and from
Canadian tire...so I try not to freak out and try to engage him in
dialogue about stealing which mostly ends up in me telling him why I
think it is wrong (basically, you are taking something that is not
yours, it can hurt others by depriving them of their livelihood,
etc) - and the most forceful argument that his mother came up with is
that if any one of our teenagers gets in trouble with the "law", we
are worried that CAS might get called in - 2 single moms, 5
teenagers, living in a house together and unschoooling, one on
assistance....we are hoping that that argument will sway him...so far
he hasn't done it again (or at least hasn't told me, but he seems to
*want* to tell me)...but any insights people have about talking to
kids about stealing would be great...

--=-=-=-

Two things:

First, any time you do something illegal, you kind of need to be
willing to face the consequences. Stealing would be pretty damned far
off the "I'm-OK-with-That" scale. *I* personally would have a pretty
hard time not chiming in on that one. And hard!

Second, if he chooses to do something that could potentially jeopardize
my unschooling his brother, I get irritated. We were very clear with
Cameron about the pot-smoking and the potential legal ramifications and
how that could affect our ability to unschool Duncan. It wasn't fair to
his little brother. He understood that and respected it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

The other issue that I would love comments and thoughts and previous
experiences with is underage drinking - same kid, thinks drinking is
really cool and really wants to do it, and has a bit - doesn't help
that he has an 18-year-old brother that also lives with us that has a
stash....anyway, any and all input welcomed!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

The eighteen year old is also underage---or are you not in the US?

Why does he think it's cool?

Cameron (now 20) had a very unpleasant experience with drinking at
15---on his birthday. Has had little interest in drinking since then.

But what's your stance on drinking? Your attitude? Your drinking habit?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Judy R

Thanks for this Kelly -

we seem to have gotten the stealing issue settled - he does respect that it threatens all of us -

of course, just *doing* the graffiti could threaten all of us, too - yesterday, he went to an event at his old school (he isn't actually me child, he is my house-mate's child) that he kind of revels in "hating", and he went into the washrooms and tagged all the stalls - it didn't take them too long to figue out who did it, and they contacted the mother of the kid that he was with who called him and threatened to call the police. Neither his mom nor myself was here at the time. Apparently he convinced her not to call the police, basically by begging her I think - and when he told me about it last night, you know, I *didn't* blow up and say "OMG, how stupid can you be", which honestly was what I was thinking; I *did* say something along the lines of "Did that scare you" and "I think maybe you can see that we aren't making this up about the police, that it could really happen" - so I am *hopeful* that it did sink in - he wants me not to tell his mother....

As to the drinking, after feedback from the list and realizing that it is pretty much experimental and wanting to be cool - I mean he doesn't do it all the time - he obviously thinks it makes him *cool* (if he was my child, we would have been having talks from a long time ago about the misconception of *cool*, but he already has that in his head - not too much I can do about it at this pooint - and he greatly admires his older brother who drinks and who is *very* cool) - and you are right about his brother being underage (we are in Canada) -

we already had established with his brother that he was not to have drinking parties in the house for all the same reasons, and he did stop - his mom let him have one on his birthday, and she was in the house the whole time. Neither myself nor the boys' mother drink at all - the boys father, who deserted them last year, is a druggie - so she does talk to them about the possibility that they may have the same addictive tendencies that he does. They tend to tune her out a lot though...

I have to say that their mom isn't around a lot and I feel like I'm holding a lot of this bag - they don't want to talk to her about a lot of these things because her usual response to anything is to just freak out and demand that they stop doing it immediately - which is not very helpful. They will tell me things because I don't freak out and I do try to listen to their points of view about things and then have hope that my message may penetrate over time - but it's scary for me...I still don't know whether to tell his mom or even the other kids about the bathroom thing - I don't want to push him away - I would *much* rather that he tell me things than not - and I do have hopes that this has scared him enough to think more about what he is doing; so that may be an end to it. I guess I'll just have to wait and see...


----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:51 AM
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age drinking


-----Original Message-----
From: jlouiser <jroberts@...>

however,
part of the subculture ethos is that you must steal your paint. He
has told me about when he stole some from the $ store and from
Canadian tire...so I try not to freak out and try to engage him in
dialogue about stealing which mostly ends up in me telling him why I
think it is wrong (basically, you are taking something that is not
yours, it can hurt others by depriving them of their livelihood,
etc) - and the most forceful argument that his mother came up with is
that if any one of our teenagers gets in trouble with the "law", we
are worried that CAS might get called in - 2 single moms, 5
teenagers, living in a house together and unschoooling, one on
assistance....we are hoping that that argument will sway him...so far
he hasn't done it again (or at least hasn't told me, but he seems to
*want* to tell me)...but any insights people have about talking to
kids about stealing would be great...

--=-=-=-

Two things:

First, any time you do something illegal, you kind of need to be
willing to face the consequences. Stealing would be pretty damned far
off the "I'm-OK-with-That" scale. *I* personally would have a pretty
hard time not chiming in on that one. And hard!

Second, if he chooses to do something that could potentially jeopardize
my unschooling his brother, I get irritated. We were very clear with
Cameron about the pot-smoking and the potential legal ramifications and
how that could affect our ability to unschool Duncan. It wasn't fair to
his little brother. He understood that and respected it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

The other issue that I would love comments and thoughts and previous
experiences with is underage drinking - same kid, thinks drinking is
really cool and really wants to do it, and has a bit - doesn't help
that he has an 18-year-old brother that also lives with us that has a
stash....anyway, any and all input welcomed!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

The eighteen year old is also underage---or are you not in the US?

Why does he think it's cool?

Cameron (now 20) had a very unpleasant experience with drinking at
15---on his birthday. Has had little interest in drinking since then.

But what's your stance on drinking? Your attitude? Your drinking habit?

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy R <jroberts@...>

of course, just *doing* the graffiti could threaten all of us, too -
yesterday,
he went to an event at his old school (he isn't actually me child, he
is my
house-mate's child) that he kind of revels in "hating", and he went
into the
washrooms and tagged all the stalls - it didn't take them too long to
figue out
who did it, and they contacted the mother of the kid that he was with
who called
him and threatened to call the police. Neither his mom nor myself was
here at
the time. Apparently he convinced her not to call the police,
basically by
begging her I think - and when he told me about it last night, you
know, I
*didn't* blow up and say "OMG, how stupid can you be", which honestly
was what I
was thinking; I *did* say something along the lines of "Did that scare
you" and
"I think maybe you can see that we aren't making this up about the
police, that
it could really happen" - so I am *hopeful* that it did sink in - he
wants me
not to tell his mother....

-==-=-=-

Well, in *this* case, I think I WOULD blow up!

It's a problem with *me* that he would consider vandalism and
destroying someone else's stuff as OK. It's against our principle of
not harming ourselves, others, or others' property. It's simply NOT OK.
We would consider restitution.

-=-=-=-=-

I have to say that their mom isn't around a lot and I feel like I'm
holding a
lot of this bag - they don't want to talk to her about a lot of these
things
because her usual response to anything is to just freak out and demand
that they
stop doing it immediately - which is not very helpful. They will tell
me things
because I don't freak out and I do try to listen to their points of
view about
things and then have hope that my message may penetrate over time - but
it's
scary for me...I still don't know whether to tell his mom or even the
other kids
about the bathroom thing - I don't want to push him away - I would
*much* rather
that he tell me things than not - and I do have hopes that this has
scared him
enough to think more about what he is doing; so that may be an end to
it. I
guess I'll just have to wait and see...

-=-=-=-=

Well it's great that he has a rational adult to talk with. But I think
he needs to know how bad this IS---that he's messing with *other*
people and their stuff. Just like stealing, vandalism is
taking/destroying other's possessions.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Judy R

As a follow - up , the principal called in the police and he and his mom had to go to see the community policing officer, or whatever she's called - turns out she was very reasonable, but firm and although the principal of the school wanted to charge him, the community officer didn't and assigned him to doing various prgrams - and it did scare the sh*t out of him, which is I think mostly the intention - anyway, it also has resulted in his mom thinking maybe she needs to be spedning more time with them, all of which is to the good.

I was wondering if other people on this list have had teenagers get into trouble with the "law" and what they have done about it?
----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:52 PM
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age drinking


-----Original Message-----
From: Judy R <jroberts@...>

of course, just *doing* the graffiti could threaten all of us, too -
yesterday,
he went to an event at his old school (he isn't actually me child, he
is my
house-mate's child) that he kind of revels in "hating", and he went
into the
washrooms and tagged all the stalls - it didn't take them too long to
figue out
who did it, and they contacted the mother of the kid that he was with
who called
him and threatened to call the police. Neither his mom nor myself was
here at
the time. Apparently he convinced her not to call the police,
basically by
begging her I think - and when he told me about it last night, you
know, I
*didn't* blow up and say "OMG, how stupid can you be", which honestly
was what I
was thinking; I *did* say something along the lines of "Did that scare
you" and
"I think maybe you can see that we aren't making this up about the
police, that
it could really happen" - so I am *hopeful* that it did sink in - he
wants me
not to tell his mother....

-==-=-=-

Well, in *this* case, I think I WOULD blow up!

It's a problem with *me* that he would consider vandalism and
destroying someone else's stuff as OK. It's against our principle of
not harming ourselves, others, or others' property. It's simply NOT OK.
We would consider restitution.

-=-=-=-=-

I have to say that their mom isn't around a lot and I feel like I'm
holding a
lot of this bag - they don't want to talk to her about a lot of these
things
because her usual response to anything is to just freak out and demand
that they
stop doing it immediately - which is not very helpful. They will tell
me things
because I don't freak out and I do try to listen to their points of
view about
things and then have hope that my message may penetrate over time - but
it's
scary for me...I still don't know whether to tell his mom or even the
other kids
about the bathroom thing - I don't want to push him away - I would
*much* rather
that he tell me things than not - and I do have hopes that this has
scared him
enough to think more about what he is doing; so that may be an end to
it. I
guess I'll just have to wait and see...

-=-=-=-=

Well it's great that he has a rational adult to talk with. But I think
he needs to know how bad this IS---that he's messing with *other*
people and their stuff. Just like stealing, vandalism is
taking/destroying other's possessions.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi Bezzola

My mom just arrived home (my parents live in our suite) after being at my sister's place for 6 months, and while we've done had many conversation with my dad about RU, my mom is pretty confused about the whole thing. I don't blame her - LOTS has changed in our parenting during the time she was away!

We were talking the other day about the fairly maintstream concept of offering choices. My mom was telling me what my sister does with my almost 3-year old niece, and that was, 'do you want me to put you in your car seat or do you want to get in yourself?', and then my niece scrambles into her carseat or my sister puts her in it without much fuss or she follows through even though Stella isn't happy about it. This does NOT work with mine by the way, they just completely ignore me <G> and get in when they're good and ready. I would have to fight with them to get them in, hold them down, then drive away quickly, but I'm not willing to do that. Which is why I don't do the choice thing, because I'm not willing to create that much angst and unhappiness over all the little things that happen in a day.

I told my mom this doesn't work with my kids and she asked, 'so when do they learn that they can't do/have everything they want?'. Classic question I know, but one I had no clue how to answer. I do believe there will be lots of time for them to experience that, but how would you answer that question?? SO often I KNOW in my heart what I believe and what just intuitively feels right in that moment with my girls, but I have no idea how to explain WHY, and she is asking ALOT of questions!!!

Jodi






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

'so when do they learn that they can't do/have everything they want?'.

****

I probably would have asked her "What exactly, can't they do or
have?". (and then why)

:-)

Heather

Ren Allen

~~
I was wondering if other people on this list have had teenagers get
into trouble with the "law" and what they have done about it?~~

I have one that has done illegal things, but never at anyone elses
expense. He's very thoughtful and considers how his actions affect
others to an amazing degree (overly analytical like his Mum).

I wouldn't be very cool with them hurting someone elses property.
That's not ok in our world. It would have to be for a really good
reason for me to be on board...over a serious moral issue or something
that they felt strongly about defending. Just harming property or
taking things just isn't ok.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Judy R

I agree, but somehow he doesn't get the concept that he is hurting others - he is just sort of buying into the, I don't know, it's his right as a disenfranchised teen or something - I think he has bought an"image" that he has gotten off the internet about graffiti artists, he "wants" to be super-cool like they seem to him - he just doesn't seem to understand how it's hurting someone else; the only thing that seems to have penetrated so far is that he really could (and did) get in trouble for doing it.

We aren't objecting to the graffiti per se - in fact, he has done some really cool things and shown a lot of creativity and inventiveness, and we have given him opportunities to do so around the house and yard - he is constructing a "graffiti fence" in the backyard, but I guess some of the appeal is the rush of doing the illegal thing.

His mom has only been home-schooling/uschooling them for a couple of years - the school that he did the washrooms in was his old school in which he was apparently bullied a lot - he justified it that way - anyway, a lot to untangle there in his thinking -

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:17 PM
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age dri


~~
I was wondering if other people on this list have had teenagers get
into trouble with the "law" and what they have done about it?~~

I have one that has done illegal things, but never at anyone elses
expense. He's very thoughtful and considers how his actions affect
others to an amazing degree (overly analytical like his Mum).

I wouldn't be very cool with them hurting someone elses property.
That's not ok in our world. It would have to be for a really good
reason for me to be on board...over a serious moral issue or something
that they felt strongly about defending. Just harming property or
taking things just isn't ok.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

or "when they have to" which isn't when they're that little - it's the same as the excuse about why they have to be little adults in school - so they'll know how when they become adults! Why do they need to be adults before they're adults? But I know what you mean about trying to answer those kinds of specific questions from people - my mind just always goes blank at those times.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Bezzola
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 6:22 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] kids doing what they want all the time


My mom just arrived home (my parents live in our suite) after being at my sister's place for 6 months, and while we've done had many conversation with my dad about RU, my mom is pretty confused about the whole thing. I don't blame her - LOTS has changed in our parenting during the time she was away!

We were talking the other day about the fairly maintstream concept of offering choices. My mom was telling me what my sister does with my almost 3-year old niece, and that was, 'do you want me to put you in your car seat or do you want to get in yourself?', and then my niece scrambles into her carseat or my sister puts her in it without much fuss or she follows through even though Stella isn't happy about it. This does NOT work with mine by the way, they just completely ignore me <G> and get in when they're good and ready. I would have to fight with them to get them in, hold them down, then drive away quickly, but I'm not willing to do that. Which is why I don't do the choice thing, because I'm not willing to create that much angst and unhappiness over all the little things that happen in a day.

I told my mom this doesn't work with my kids and she asked, 'so when do they learn that they can't do/have everything they want?'. Classic question I know, but one I had no clue how to answer. I do believe there will be lots of time for them to experience that, but how would you answer that question?? SO often I KNOW in my heart what I believe and what just intuitively feels right in that moment with my girls, but I have no idea how to explain WHY, and she is asking ALOT of questions!!!

Jodi



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

juillet727

--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:

>> and she asked, 'so when do they learn that they can't do/have
everything they want?'.
>>>>>>>>>>

I've answered this question with the response of, "He learns it all
the time. We don't have to "create" that lesson. Sometimes we really
don't have money for the candy machine or his friend isn't able play
or there isn't any milk for cereal. I'm not going to create arbitrary
"lessons" of not getting what he wants because life is already like
that. My job is to help him get his wants/needs met as best I can."

~~Juillet

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>

I told my mom this doesn't work with my kids and she asked, 'so when
do they
learn that they can't do/have everything they want?'. Classic question
I know,
but one I had no clue how to answer. I do believe there will be lots
of time
for them to experience that, but how would you answer that question??

-=-=-=-=-=-

Can she give a concrete example or two?

*I* don't do anything I don't want/choose to do.

But "teaching" them that they can't do/have what they want simply makes
them quit trying to do/get what they want. They become adults who quit
searching and reaching and exploring.

If every time your baby attempted to reach for a pretty toy you smacked
him, when would he quit reaching? Depends on the kid. The "best" baby
would quit after the first smack. The "good" baby would take a few
smacks before quitting. The really ornery baby might need harder and
harder smacks. And the extremely difficult baby might need restraints
and a belt, for smacks that *work*.

The *impossible* baby would need all pretty toys removed from sight
because he will simply NOT be stopped. He's going to reach for that
toy, no matter what.

As pleasant as it may be to raise a "best" baby (and I have one of
those! I used to have to work *hard* to not let someone else's smacks
stop him!), it's the "difficult" and "impossible" babies who will have
what it takes to *make* things happen. They won't take no for an
answer. They work harder. Rather than stop, they find ways
around/through/over difficult situations. The "difficult" and
"impossible" babies are the ones that, although exasperating at times,
will be the movers and the shakers of the future.

We all learn what we can and can't do. We all find things we can and
can't have---or that we have to wait a bit for or be more clever at
obtaining. It's part of life.

But my job as a parent isn't to keep my children from
getting/having/doing stuff. My job is to *help* them find ways to
get/do/have what they want.

That's a big paradigm shift.

The common response is that we need to learn how to deal with the bad
stuff that *might* come up---like bullies or crappy jobs. But I don't
have to *be* a bully or give them crappy jobs so they know how to
handle them. I want my children to know that they don't have to put up
with bullies or crappy jobs. Both can be walked away from---and fast.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Barbara Perez

I like Julliet's answer. But my first thought when I read the question was:

"Not when it's merely inconvenient to us parents, but when it truly is
unsafe, or illegal, or impossible for them to have something, which happens
often enough."

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 5:27 AM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@... <jodibezzola%40yahoo.com>>
>
> I told my mom this doesn't work with my kids and she asked, 'so when
> do they
> learn that they can't do/have everything they want?'. Classic question
> I know,
> but one I had no clue how to answer. I do believe there will be lots
> of time
> for them to experience that, but how would you answer that question??
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Can she give a concrete example or two?
>
> *I* don't do anything I don't want/choose to do.
>
> But "teaching" them that they can't do/have what they want simply makes
> them quit trying to do/get what they want. They become adults who quit
> searching and reaching and exploring.
>
> If every time your baby attempted to reach for a pretty toy you smacked
> him, when would he quit reaching? Depends on the kid. The "best" baby
> would quit after the first smack. The "good" baby would take a few
> smacks before quitting. The really ornery baby might need harder and
> harder smacks. And the extremely difficult baby might need restraints
> and a belt, for smacks that *work*.
>
> The *impossible* baby would need all pretty toys removed from sight
> because he will simply NOT be stopped. He's going to reach for that
> toy, no matter what.
>
> As pleasant as it may be to raise a "best" baby (and I have one of
> those! I used to have to work *hard* to not let someone else's smacks
> stop him!), it's the "difficult" and "impossible" babies who will have
> what it takes to *make* things happen. They won't take no for an
> answer. They work harder. Rather than stop, they find ways
> around/through/over difficult situations. The "difficult" and
> "impossible" babies are the ones that, although exasperating at times,
> will be the movers and the shakers of the future.
>
> We all learn what we can and can't do. We all find things we can and
> can't have---or that we have to wait a bit for or be more clever at
> obtaining. It's part of life.
>
> But my job as a parent isn't to keep my children from
> getting/having/doing stuff. My job is to *help* them find ways to
> get/do/have what they want.
>
> That's a big paradigm shift.
>
> The common response is that we need to learn how to deal with the bad
> stuff that *might* come up---like bullies or crappy jobs. But I don't
> have to *be* a bully or give them crappy jobs so they know how to
> handle them. I want my children to know that they don't have to put up
> with bullies or crappy jobs. Both can be walked away from---and fast.
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mary

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>
> As pleasant as it may be to raise a "best" baby (and I have one of
> those! I used to have to work *hard* to not let someone else's smacks
> stop him!), it's the "difficult" and "impossible" babies who will have
> what it takes to *make* things happen.


This maybe off topic but it is once we started to mindfully parent and
unschool that I realized how much the "best" baby needed this kind
of upbringing. She could have and probably would have gone through
life doing almost everything anyone asked. Well, what the heck does
that get her? She may never figure out what it is she likes because
she is always doing what she is "supposed" to be doing.

So, now she is not the "best" baby <g> and down right a challenge to
parent at times-and I'm so glad! I think now she feels she can tell me
what she wants. And that we have given her the option to have a lot
of yes and not to have to be ok with no.

mary

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> As a follow - up , the principal called in the police and he and
his mom had to go to see the community policing officer, or whatever
she's called - turns out she was very reasonable, but firm and
although the principal of the school wanted to charge him, the
community officer didn't and assigned him to doing various prgrams -
and it did scare the sh*t out of him, which is I think mostly the
intention - anyway, it also has resulted in his mom thinking maybe
she needs to be spedning more time with them, all of which is to the
good.
>
> I was wondering if other people on this list have had teenagers
get into trouble with the "law" and what they have done about it?

=======

My son has never gotten in trouble with the police but he did get in
trouble with the military police once when he was 12. We had just
moved to our first military base in Hawaii. We had only been there
for about a month. No one is allowed to have any kind of fireworks
on the base, not even sparklers. Somehow my son and his friends got
some sparklers and were playing with them on the beach. They stuck
them in the sand and thought they had put them all out but one of
them caught a little bunch of grass on fire. A woman had been
watching them from her window so she called in the fire and to
report the boys. They ran but got caught. We had to go in front of
the base magistrate. My son was the only one who told the truth. The
other boy who was there didn't say anything. The third boy moved to
another base before our "court" date so he didn't get in any
trouble. The magistrate gave my son and the other boy community
service. We were told that if he got in trouble on base again we
would not be able to live there. That would've been a major hardship
for us because it's very expensive to live in Hawaii. We did the
community service, cleaning up trash on the base, which was a pain
in the butt for me because I had to supervise him. I was pregnant
and it was hot. I was a little upset because the other boy got out
of doing his community service because his mom worked at the base
thrift shop so she recorded him volunteering there although he
didn't actually do any work there. As far as him "getting into
trouble" it wasn't much of a big deal, just a little community
service. The fact that a fire had been started was a big deal and I
talked to my son about it. We didn't impose any other punishment.
The community service was enough. I think he got the message because
he didn't get in any more trouble on the base.

Once I actually called the police on my son. I regret it now and I
didn't follow through with anything. Here's what happened with that.
I had just had a baby. My husband had been deployed to Iraq for 6
months and was going to be gone another 6 months. I bought a house
and closed on it when my new baby was 2 weeks old. I had to move our
family by myself, essentially. This, obviously, was a very busy,
very crazy time for me. I was not fully aware of what my son was
doing during that time. He was 16. While moving I didn't have
internet access, which is the only way I could keep track of my bank
accounts since my bank is in a different state.

One night I was woken up by music outside. When I went to see what
was going on I found some teenagers I didn't know sitting on my
porch drinking alcohol. My son was not there and neither was my car.
He did not have a license. The next morning I was checking my bank
accounts since I had finally gotten our internet hooked back up and
discovered that my son had used my atm card and taken about $600 out
of our savings account. When I confronted him about it he acted like
he couldn't be bothered and said he was going back to bed. I didn't
know what to do. I was so scared about where he was headed. I was
afraid he was on drugs. I sort of lost it. I called the police to
report that he had stolen my car and the money. A policewoman came
out and took a report but I declined to have him arrested and so the
whole thing was dropped.

He recently got caught where he lives now being out after curfew.
He's 17 and the curfew is midnight for anyone under 18. So, he has a
court date for that. This will be his first actual court date and
trouble with the law. It's probably not a big deal. He's not a bad
kid and he wasn't doing anything else illegal and he doesn't have a
record. He wasn't doing anything except waiting for his dad to pick
him up. He might get community service. He might just get a warning
or suspended sentence as long as he stays out of trouble. I'm
planning to go to his court date just in case. Like my husband said,
if he gets a fine, we're the only ones who'll be able to pay it.

Not sure how any of that might help you. BTW, although I considered
us unschoolers, I had not fully surrendered to RU until after the
car and money thing. That was when I finally let go of my last bit
of delusion that I was in control and let him completely have his
own life. I didn't have any trouble with him after that.

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> the school that he did the washrooms in was his old school in
which he was apparently bullied a lot - he justified it that way -
anyway, a lot to untangle there in his thinking -

========

It sounds like he might have a lot of pent up anger about things
that happened at that school. Talking about it might help, if he
wants to talk. Or maybe just commiserating if you have any stories
about being bullied or mistreated, how it made you feel and what you
did about it. Sometimes it can help a lot just to know that others
go through the same things.

Do you talk to his mom about all of this? Does she have any thoughts
or ideas of things to do? Do they have a good, open, honest,
respectful relationship? I understand why you are involved but this
really isn't your responsibility. His mother should be dealing with
it. I'm not saying you should abandon him but at least try to get
his mother involved, too.

Alysia

julie leonard

**But "teaching" them that they can't do/have what they want simply makes
them quit trying to do/get what they want. They become adults who quit
searching and reaching and exploring.**

Ok, I see this....part of the whole "well they need to learn that they can't always get what they want..."issue

Having teens, (who were not unschooled or homeschooled) I and they understand this, and they bargain. "i will give you this if you give me that" and it works, and most times, they end up with they want.

But how do you help a 4 year old understand that other people have needs? They are in such a self indulgence stage. How do I help her to understand that it is 11 pm, and we need to go to sleep now? How do I help her understand that if she is aggresive to her brother, he will be aggresive back? I am having a hard time between explaining things to her that are out of her ability to comprehend (because of her age) or just saying no because I said so...

any suggestions on this one?



***Julie***
Another day....another adventure







,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

Wow...thanks for that. It really is recognizing that we have no actual control over them, isn't it? We can only do the best we can, love them, care for them, hope they learn from us...this has been a little strange because both his mom and myself (we are housemates and good friends, nothing more) think the graffiti thing is cool, it's just unfortunate that it's illegal! We can only present our own ideas about why we think "tagging" the washrooms at the school was not OK and why we think that tagging people's personal property is not OK - in the end we can't actually insert our morals into his head.

I think there has been some plus sides to this - one thing is that his mom is paying more attention to both of the boys which is a good thing - also he has now constructed a huge graffiti wall in the back yard (we supplied the materials, he did the rest) -
----- Original Message -----
From: keetry
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age drinking


--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> As a follow - up , the principal called in the police and he and
his mom had to go to see the community policing officer, or whatever
she's called - turns out she was very reasonable, but firm and
although the principal of the school wanted to charge him, the
community officer didn't and assigned him to doing various prgrams -
and it did scare the sh*t out of him, which is I think mostly the
intention - anyway, it also has resulted in his mom thinking maybe
she needs to be spedning more time with them, all of which is to the
good.
>
> I was wondering if other people on this list have had teenagers
get into trouble with the "law" and what they have done about it?

=======

My son has never gotten in trouble with the police but he did get in
trouble with the military police once when he was 12. We had just
moved to our first military base in Hawaii. We had only been there
for about a month. No one is allowed to have any kind of fireworks
on the base, not even sparklers. Somehow my son and his friends got
some sparklers and were playing with them on the beach. They stuck
them in the sand and thought they had put them all out but one of
them caught a little bunch of grass on fire. A woman had been
watching them from her window so she called in the fire and to
report the boys. They ran but got caught. We had to go in front of
the base magistrate. My son was the only one who told the truth. The
other boy who was there didn't say anything. The third boy moved to
another base before our "court" date so he didn't get in any
trouble. The magistrate gave my son and the other boy community
service. We were told that if he got in trouble on base again we
would not be able to live there. That would've been a major hardship
for us because it's very expensive to live in Hawaii. We did the
community service, cleaning up trash on the base, which was a pain
in the butt for me because I had to supervise him. I was pregnant
and it was hot. I was a little upset because the other boy got out
of doing his community service because his mom worked at the base
thrift shop so she recorded him volunteering there although he
didn't actually do any work there. As far as him "getting into
trouble" it wasn't much of a big deal, just a little community
service. The fact that a fire had been started was a big deal and I
talked to my son about it. We didn't impose any other punishment.
The community service was enough. I think he got the message because
he didn't get in any more trouble on the base.

Once I actually called the police on my son. I regret it now and I
didn't follow through with anything. Here's what happened with that.
I had just had a baby. My husband had been deployed to Iraq for 6
months and was going to be gone another 6 months. I bought a house
and closed on it when my new baby was 2 weeks old. I had to move our
family by myself, essentially. This, obviously, was a very busy,
very crazy time for me. I was not fully aware of what my son was
doing during that time. He was 16. While moving I didn't have
internet access, which is the only way I could keep track of my bank
accounts since my bank is in a different state.

One night I was woken up by music outside. When I went to see what
was going on I found some teenagers I didn't know sitting on my
porch drinking alcohol. My son was not there and neither was my car.
He did not have a license. The next morning I was checking my bank
accounts since I had finally gotten our internet hooked back up and
discovered that my son had used my atm card and taken about $600 out
of our savings account. When I confronted him about it he acted like
he couldn't be bothered and said he was going back to bed. I didn't
know what to do. I was so scared about where he was headed. I was
afraid he was on drugs. I sort of lost it. I called the police to
report that he had stolen my car and the money. A policewoman came
out and took a report but I declined to have him arrested and so the
whole thing was dropped.

He recently got caught where he lives now being out after curfew.
He's 17 and the curfew is midnight for anyone under 18. So, he has a
court date for that. This will be his first actual court date and
trouble with the law. It's probably not a big deal. He's not a bad
kid and he wasn't doing anything else illegal and he doesn't have a
record. He wasn't doing anything except waiting for his dad to pick
him up. He might get community service. He might just get a warning
or suspended sentence as long as he stays out of trouble. I'm
planning to go to his court date just in case. Like my husband said,
if he gets a fine, we're the only ones who'll be able to pay it.

Not sure how any of that might help you. BTW, although I considered
us unschoolers, I had not fully surrendered to RU until after the
car and money thing. That was when I finally let go of my last bit
of delusion that I was in control and let him completely have his
own life. I didn't have any trouble with him after that.

Alysia





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

HIs mom has gotten more involved, which we both realize in hind-sight, was needed. She has just come out of a 20-some-odd year really bad marriage that broke up in a very scary and dramatic way (loan sharks, threats to her kids, fleeing in the middle of the night kind of stuff) - I think she is still suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome and has needed this time to recover - but this is maybe the wake-up call, and she has responded, so I think something good has come out of it.

She did take them out of school over the bullying issue, but he does still have issues around that; but it's hard to get him to open up and talk about things. His father is a druggie, and I think he has inherited his father's "victim" attitude - which is not to blame him about the bullying, but I do think he holds onto it and uses it as a way to try to get sympathy - that's something that he learned from his dad, all his excuses about how the world has been cruel to him and that's why does drugs, etc. very tricky territory...to help sort out what is and isn't his responsibility - and mainly that his own emotions are his own responsibility....
----- Original Message -----
From: keetry
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age dri


--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> the school that he did the washrooms in was his old school in
which he was apparently bullied a lot - he justified it that way -
anyway, a lot to untangle there in his thinking -

========

It sounds like he might have a lot of pent up anger about things
that happened at that school. Talking about it might help, if he
wants to talk. Or maybe just commiserating if you have any stories
about being bullied or mistreated, how it made you feel and what you
did about it. Sometimes it can help a lot just to know that others
go through the same things.

Do you talk to his mom about all of this? Does she have any thoughts
or ideas of things to do? Do they have a good, open, honest,
respectful relationship? I understand why you are involved but this
really isn't your responsibility. His mother should be dealing with
it. I'm not saying you should abandon him but at least try to get
his mother involved, too.

Alysia





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> Wow...thanks for that. It really is recognizing that we have no
actual control over them, isn't it? We can only do the best we can,
love them, care for them, hope they learn from us...this has been a
little strange because both his mom and myself (we are housemates
and good friends, nothing more) think the graffiti thing is cool,
it's just unfortunate that it's illegal! We can only present our
own ideas about why we think "tagging" the washrooms at the school
was not OK and why we think that tagging people's personal property
is not OK - in the end we can't actually insert our morals into his
head.
>
> I think there has been some plus sides to this - one thing is that
his mom is paying more attention to both of the boys which is a good
thing - also he has now constructed a huge graffiti wall in the back
yard (we supplied the materials, he did the rest) -

===========

I realized I contradicted myself in my post. I said my son had never
gotten in trouble with the police and then later said he had a court
date for breaking curfew. I guess he has now gotten in trouble with
the "real" police. ;)

I think supporting his artistic expression is a very good thing to
do. Another thing for him to consider is that his mother might be
held legally and financially responsible for his actions. I know
you've talked to him already about how his actions could affect the
rest of you wrt unschooling and your lifestyle but that's another
consideration that hits close to home if he's not getting that it's
not OK to damage other people's property.

But, yeah, in the end you can't make him agree with you that it's
wrong. He has to decide for himself. He can always change his mind,
too, if he makes the wrong decision right now. It's never the end.
That's one thing that always helps me when I think of my oldest son.
Everyone else in my family is freaking out because he's not going to
school or getting his GED and he's 17. I don't understand what the
rush is to get it done now. He's *only* 17. He has the rest of his
life to decide what he's going to do.

Alysia

Alysia

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], julie leonard
<brihanna@...> wrote:
>
>
> But how do you help a 4 year old understand that other people have
needs? They are in such a self indulgence stage. How do I help her
to understand that it is 11 pm, and we need to go to sleep now? How
do I help her understand that if she is aggresive to her brother, he
will be aggresive back? I am having a hard time between explaining
things to her that are out of her ability to comprehend (because of
her age) or just saying no because I said so...
>

the more you can take care of HER needs the more she may see others
needs- I have two very fiesty-spirited girls ages 5 and 3 and have
been unschooling for almost 2 years and the more I took care of what
they needed and wanted- the more I said yes to them- then came the
day when we were outside and I said that I really did not want to be
out there and was tired and wanted to be inside and the 5 yr old
said ok lets go in- I was a little floored because it was not
supposed to work that way but it did

if they know you will try everything to make what they want happen
they will do it for you and each other- I am amzaed at the
compassion they show for other people- not always they are still 5
and 3 but when one is hurt they run to get bandaids- when the 3 yr
old had diahrea the 5 yr old ran to make toast (to cure it-lol)-
they help each other in ways I never remember my siblings helping
each other and yes they still fight like the dickens when they
really want what they want which is ok too- they are getting really
good at saying -how are we going to work this out- and the 5 yr old
who used to stick to what she wanted gives in to the little one more
often than I ever expect her too

if you need sleep and she needs to be doing something how can you
sleep and she stay awake- is there really no way to work that out-

Julie
the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com

Jodi Bezzola

julie leonard <brihanna@...> wrote:

~~But how do you help a 4 year old understand that other people have needs? They are in such a self indulgence stage. How do I help her to understand that it is 11 pm, and we need to go to sleep now? How do I help her understand that if she is aggresive to her brother, he will be aggresive back? I am having a hard time between explaining things to her that are out of her ability to comprehend (because of her age) or just saying no because I said so~~

My girls are 3 1/2 and I'm really getting that there is no way to rush this! I seriously think it can only come by modelling you meeting *their* needs and by time. If you are meeting their needs (with joy and love, there's the catch), then they will get that it's a pleasure to meet the needs of those we love and it'll come.

In our house we've gotten very creative about getting our needs met, by tag-teaming when it comes to sleep, etc. Ours are gradually getting that being aggressive isn't a good way to get the best out of the person their interacting with, because I have extremely physical girls who will use some part of their bodies before they talk...baby steps! They are *supposed* to be focused on themselves at this age, and to expect any more of them than 'three' or 'four' is not respectful of them and where they're at right now.

And yes, I am occasionally cursing at 11:45 because they still have *so* much energy and how could they possibly not be ready to crash because all the adults are, and that's part of my progress and not perfection when it comes to RU and parenting *my* children!

I'm also REALLY understanding to the marrow of my bones just how short this time is when they are so little, and that the minute each stage passes that I think was the most challenging yet...I miss it!!!

Jodi





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 9, 2008, at 6:28 PM, Judy R wrote:

> I think there has been some plus sides to this - one thing is that
> his mom is paying more attention to both of the boys which is a good
> thing - also he has now constructed a huge graffiti wall in the back
> yard (we supplied the materials, he did the rest) -

I've been searching to see if I could find a photo of this on the
internet somewhere - but so far, no luck. Anyway, I took a ceramics
class at a college and one of the advanced students created a HUGE
ceramic Japanese temple - it was maybe 4 feet tall and 4 feet across.
Then he covered it with graffiti - and, yes, he admitted he'd tagged
public places and considered it art. Anyway, this graffiti-covered
temple was very moving - the kid's parents are Japanese and it was a
statement about his own life.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 9, 2008, at 9:26 PM, julie leonard wrote:

> But how do you help a 4 year old understand that other people have
> needs?

As others said by meeting her needs eventually she gets old enough
to understand. In the mean time, don't expect her to!

If you search for "bedtime routine" in the archives, that should turn
up several threads about helping kids wind down. And some about
changing thinking about bedtime too.

> They are in such a self indulgence stage.

It helps to deal positively with them if you rephrase with positive
words, like developing a strong sense of self :-) Eventually she'll
temper that with an understanding of other's needs, but you don't
want her to lose the ability to know what she wants and to stand up
for it :-) Eventually she'll learn how not to step on others' toes
while doing that.

> How do I help her to understand that it is 11 pm, and we need to go
> to sleep now?

No one will die if you don't sleep at 11 ;-) To see more clearly, to
help you find better solutions, recognize that you *want* to sleep at
11. She wants to stay up. You have conflicting wants. Do you want to
model for her that the best way you've come up with when two people
have incompatible needs is for the bigger one to impose their way on
the weaker one?

*But* if you mean dad (or whoever works) needs to sleep to get up
early, approach the problem in a "What are the quiet things we can do
so Daddy can sleep?" Don't expect her to control herself, but engage
her in the problem solving. Wrap it in an atmosphere of "How can we
get your needs met *and* daddy's needs?"

If she experiences you treating her needs with the same respect as
you're treating her father's needs she will want (when she's able) to
take other people's needs into consideration. People become selfish
when they feel they need to fight to get their needs met. If she
doesn't need to fight to get her needs met, she'll be full enough to
be generous with her energy to take others' needs into consideration.
(When she's developmentally able!)

Right now she's feeling you fight against her desire to stay up so
she's fighting as hard as she can to get that need met. Be her
partner rather than her adversary. If she feels you're on her team,
she'll eventually be on your team :-)

> How do I help her understand that if she is aggresive to her
> brother, he will be aggresive back?

She will understand when she's able. In the meantime, be more
proactive. When you see something headed that direction, redirect
her. Find something better for her to do. (It doesn't need to be
something flashy. Playing on the bed as you fold laundry. Getting a
snack tray together.) Rearrange their environment so she has less
need to be aggressive.

Rather than trying to change her, change yourself, change her
environment. The more aggressive incidents you can eliminate, the
fewer you have to deal with.

> I am having a hard time between explaining things to her that are
> out of her ability to comprehend (because of her age) or just
> saying no because I said so...

If you can give some specific incidents, people can come up with ways
they would have handled it so you can see what we're talking about
better.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> HIs mom has gotten more involved, which we both realize in hind-
sight, was needed. She has just come out of a 20-some-odd year
really bad marriage that broke up in a very scary and dramatic way
(loan sharks, threats to her kids, fleeing in the middle of the
night kind of stuff) - I think she is still suffering from post
traumatic stress syndrome and has needed this time to recover - but
this is maybe the wake-up call, and she has responded, so I think
something good has come out of it.
>

=========

He could very well be going through the same thing as his mother
did. He was definitely old enough to be aware of what was going on
at the time. That's a lot for a person to deal with.

===========

> She did take them out of school over the bullying issue, but he
does still have issues around that; but it's hard to get him to open
up and talk about things. His father is a druggie, and I think he
has inherited his father's "victim" attitude - which is not to blame
him about the bullying, but I do think he holds onto it and uses it
as a way to try to get sympathy - that's something that he learned
from his dad, all his excuses about how the world has been cruel to
him and that's why does drugs, etc. very tricky territory...to help
sort out what is and isn't his responsibility - and mainly that his
own emotions are his own responsibility....

============

I think a lot of open, honest communication, empathy, compassion,
respect can help. If he has not had a stable life thus far, it will
take a lot of time before he'll be able to trust that things are
better and safer. Professional help may be something to consider if
he thinks there's a problem and wants it. It's not a good thing,
though, if it makes him feel like everyone thinks there's something
wrong with him.

Alysia

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 10, 2008, at 1:58 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> > But how do you help a 4 year old understand that other people have
> > needs?
>
> As others said by meeting her needs eventually she gets old enough
> to understand. In the mean time, don't expect her to!


Along with being attentive in meeting the kids' needs, I always did a
lot of thinking out loud with my kids. In other words, I might say,
aloud, but to myself, "I'm think Johnny would love to play with this,
I'm going to offer it to him." Let the kids be immersed in a world in
which thinking of each others' needs is the norm and they will "join
the club."

And, I'd invite my kids to be part of my own thinking about other
people. VERY often I'd ask one kid if she thought the other would like
something. Still do that. Last night Rosie and I stopped on our way
home for her to get some taquitos at a place she especially likes. I
asked, "Do you think Roxana would like some?" Rosie said, "Yes, I
think so, let's get some for her, too. But no guacamole." This is an
everyday - many times a day - type of interchange that started when
they were very little.

Little kids need to have their own needs met - need to be confident
that their needs are being carefully considered and cared for - before
they can think about others. But they CAN think about others and they
can enjoy the "grown-up" feeling that it gives them to be included in
that kind of consideration.

I think my kids were still very very young when they started to really
enjoy giving gifts, for example. That is a great way for them to
develop the ability to think from another person's perspective. If you
go to a store to pick out a gift for their sister/brother or a friend,
they often pick out something THEY want. Sometimes it helps to say,
"Hey, let's get that for you, because you'd love it. Now, what do you
think your friend would love?" If you I couldn't afford to get it, I'd
say, "I'm putting that on YOUR gift list, because I think you'd really
love it. Now, what do you think your friend would want us to put on
her gift list?"

Lots and lots of this kind of thinking aloud and conversation in fun
ways about other people's needs was really helpful, I think. What was
NEVER helpful and probably counterproductive was when I was annoyed
that a child seemed to be uncaring about other people's needs. If we
try to make them care about others, we make them dig in their heels
and focus even more on themselves.

Over time, thinking about others became natural to them and, although
they (we) may behave inconsiderately or selfishly at various times
throughout our lives, what feels "right" to them is to be considerate
and thoughtful.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

Thanks Pam - I will look for it too - it's so interesting when you can start seeing it as art rather than junk or vandalism - which doesn't mean that it's Ok to just do it where-ever you want - but with a little thought, you can come up with places that you can think maybe are OK - abandoned public schools? for instance?
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age drinking



On Jun 9, 2008, at 6:28 PM, Judy R wrote:

> I think there has been some plus sides to this - one thing is that
> his mom is paying more attention to both of the boys which is a good
> thing - also he has now constructed a huge graffiti wall in the back
> yard (we supplied the materials, he did the rest) -

I've been searching to see if I could find a photo of this on the
internet somewhere - but so far, no luck. Anyway, I took a ceramics
class at a college and one of the advanced students created a HUGE
ceramic Japanese temple - it was maybe 4 feet tall and 4 feet across.
Then he covered it with graffiti - and, yes, he admitted he'd tagged
public places and considered it art. Anyway, this graffiti-covered
temple was very moving - the kid's parents are Japanese and it was a
statement about his own life.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

Yeah, he doesn't seem interested in professional help - his mom has broached that with him already...I think what I see happening wiht him is that he has a need to identify with something outside of himself in order to feel "cool" - and to me that speaks of a loss of an authentic self (this is just my own amateur psychobabble interpretation) - but I think I went through that as a teenager during the hippie era - it was more about being accepted into the group and trying to find the "right" way to think and to look and to act in order to be accepted - less about what I believed to be right, although there was some of that, but getting the "look" right was paramount -

I see less of this in my own girls and even in his brother - anyway, we are striving for that delicate balance between encouraging his interest without reinforcing what I see as kind of the "fake" side of it - the external trappings of "being a graffiti artist" - the bag, the hoodie, etc - anyway, tricky stuff!

Also, his mom is a bit controlling I think without realizing it - he is trying to build this graffiti wall in the backyard - and she and her new sig. other wanted to "help" him, but what they were doing was more like telling him what he was doing wrong, how it shoud be done, etc. We did speak about this a bit and I (delicately I hope!) suggested that he needs to just be allowed to do it and if any of the adults are going to "help" it it should be by invitation and as brute strength - not to give advice unless he asks for it! Not easy!

Anyway, thanks for your support! Judy R


----- Original Message -----
From: keetry
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:18 AM
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers, stealing, under-age dri


--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> HIs mom has gotten more involved, which we both realize in hind-
sight, was needed. She has just come out of a 20-some-odd year
really bad marriage that broke up in a very scary and dramatic way
(loan sharks, threats to her kids, fleeing in the middle of the
night kind of stuff) - I think she is still suffering from post
traumatic stress syndrome and has needed this time to recover - but
this is maybe the wake-up call, and she has responded, so I think
something good has come out of it.
>

=========

He could very well be going through the same thing as his mother
did. He was definitely old enough to be aware of what was going on
at the time. That's a lot for a person to deal with.

===========

> She did take them out of school over the bullying issue, but he
does still have issues around that; but it's hard to get him to open
up and talk about things. His father is a druggie, and I think he
has inherited his father's "victim" attitude - which is not to blame
him about the bullying, but I do think he holds onto it and uses it
as a way to try to get sympathy - that's something that he learned
from his dad, all his excuses about how the world has been cruel to
him and that's why does drugs, etc. very tricky territory...to help
sort out what is and isn't his responsibility - and mainly that his
own emotions are his own responsibility....

============

I think a lot of open, honest communication, empathy, compassion,
respect can help. If he has not had a stable life thus far, it will
take a lot of time before he'll be able to trust that things are
better and safer. Professional help may be something to consider if
he thinks there's a problem and wants it. It's not a good thing,
though, if it makes him feel like everyone thinks there's something
wrong with him.

Alysia





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Void

I just have to chime in and say I am a fan of graffiti as an art form.
I love to look at it and will explore various cities specifically to
see it. I love the muni tunnels in San Francisco and all the
underpasses around Baltimore...and there is nyc and Chicago. There are
several good books out there. My dh use to be onto writing but gave it
up, too expensive ($2000 court fees and 3 days in jail -loss of wages)
Our kids like to eat {bwg}
Some great spaces that aren't legal but wont bother anyone are abandon
warehouse, underpasses, etc A friend of ours got grants to do public
space on walls. He made money "renting" his artist talents to hip
record stores, convenience marts, liquor stores that wanted that style
art on their walls. Their are museums that are dedicated to "outsider"
art, their are two In baltimore: American Visionary Arts museum and
another one and I can't remember the name. they are "real" museums not
just galleries.
sorry this is so disjointed, nursing baby typing with one hand 1/2 brain
Faith

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Judy R <jroberts@...> wrote:
> Thanks Pam - I will look for it too - it's so interesting when you can start
> seeing it as art rather than junk or vandalism - which doesn't mean that
> it's Ok to just do it where-ever you want - but with a little thought, you
> can come up with places that you can think maybe are OK - abandoned public
> schools? for instance?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pamela Sorooshian
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [SPAM?] Re: [unschoolingbasics] new thread - teenagers,
> stealing, under-age drinking
>
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 6:28 PM, Judy R wrote:
>
>> I think there has been some plus sides to this - one thing is that
>> his mom is paying more attention to both of the boys which is a good
>> thing - also he has now constructed a huge graffiti wall in the back
>> yard (we supplied the materials, he did the rest) -
>
> I've been searching to see if I could find a photo of this on the
> internet somewhere - but so far, no luck. Anyway, I took a ceramics
> class at a college and one of the advanced students created a HUGE
> ceramic Japanese temple - it was maybe 4 feet tall and 4 feet across.
> Then he covered it with graffiti - and, yes, he admitted he'd tagged
> public places and considered it art. Anyway, this graffiti-covered
> temple was very moving - the kid's parents are Japanese and it was a
> statement about his own life.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



--
www.bearthmama.com