carenkh

I'm having trouble distinguishing when I should say something "RUish"
and when I should just let things go. And I'm a little sick today, so
might not make much sense. Here's the latest example: I read a blog
that I love, and get a lot out of. Recently, the author wrote a
suggestion that people keep stickers in their purse, and if they see a
child crying in a store, offer a sticker - one mom supporting another.
Just today, she wrote about a response she got... well, you can go
read it here:

http://37days.typepad.com/37days/2008/05/i-stand-correct.html

but basically the person said she'd take the sticker *away* from her
child, and why would you 'reward' a child who was crying, and probably
her child would then cry every time they went to the store so they
could get a sticker. I did write a response to that, which is probably
kinda incoherent due to strong feelings and the aforementioned
sickness. I suggested they try to see things from the child's
perspective, and I also said if a child purposefully cried in a store
to get a sticker, that meant they weren't getting enough stickers at home!

Then I questioned writing that. I do want folks to see there's a
different way to look at things... but I don't want to "cram things"
down someone's throat... (what does that even mean?). I know I feel,
too, that I need to respond *now* because of the ephemeral nature of
online discussion - if I waited to become centered and write out a
well-thought-out reply, the discussion would have 'moved on'. I have
gotten positive responses from people - they hadn't heard of
non-coercive parenting until I said something, and are glad I spoke
up. I also know by speaking my beliefs, I'm setting myself up for
disagreement from people. Normally, that's OK, I can stand in my
beliefs, but if for some reason I'm feeling vulnerable then that's
tougher.

All right, I'm rambling now... how to be an advocate through more than
just living our lives? How to advocate in the larger world -
especially online - without totally pushing people away? Any
experience and thoughts would be appreciated. And if you wanted to
leave a centered, well-thought-out reply on Patti's post, that would
be OK, too. ;)

peace,
Caren

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having trouble distinguishing when I should say something "RUish"
> and when I should just let things go. And I'm a little sick today, so
> might not make much sense.


Are you the first comment, which says "I'm sick"? The name is not the
same as your id here, so I wasn't sure.

(If it is yours...)

I thought it was great...especially pointing out that it's not a
reward, it's a distraction. Maybe someone will stop and try to see
from the child's perspective after they've read that.

Going back to read the rest of the responses now...

Ria

carenkh

-=-=-Are you the first comment, which says "I'm sick"?-=-=-


Yep, that was mine, and Alex's is right under that. I love Patti's
thoughtful reply.

My question was less about this particular instance than it was asking
in general - when do I speak out? How can I do so without alienating
people - or do I need to worry about that? I know that some
unschooling advocates are VERY outspoken - but I think they turn quite
a few people off. I want to introduce the idea that there's a
different way to see things, and advocate for the children, but dont'
want to push people away. Here's another example:

I was at a party recently, and a couple was telling the story of
coming home earlier that day and finding their youngest daughter had
taped up every one of her drawings. The dad said, "I thought we had
the tape put away!" and the mom said, "I guess she can reach that
drawer now!" I said, "Wow - that's fantastic! She was doing an art
show! Maybe you could invite some of her friends over?" And the dad
said, "Oh, no. I just painted that room! I'm not going to have a
thousand dollar paint job ruined!" His attitude was - of course, we
can't have these drawings on the wall!

Of course, now, after some time, I can see I could have suggested a
win/win - picking a couple to frame & put up, finding something other
than tape to put them up with so it doesn't damage the wall, etc. But
at the time, I was silent, because what I *wanted* to say was "So your
wall is more important than your daughter's creativity?" Which I knew
was contentious. His wife picked up on my attitude - that it was
absolutely OK to decorate your home with kids' artwork - and she was
saying things like "It's OK" to her husband. I get tongue-tied in
situations like that, because I do want to advocate for the child,
whom it *seems like* doesn't have a voice, and I want to introduce a
different way to look at things. A few other couples there were
responding in a mainstream way - oh, yeah, you have to keep tape away
from little ones!, etc.

Writing this out just helped me see that I *don't know* what goes on
in their homes, these people weren't close friends, I know them from
the neighborhood farmer's market. I don't want to come across as "all
knowing" or superior - even though I apparently have that judgment in
me somewhere, unfortunately!

Thanks for helping me untangle all this - all thoughts appreciated!

Caren

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 27, 2008, at 6:06 AM, carenkh wrote:

> His wife picked up on my attitude - that it was
> absolutely OK to decorate your home with kids' artwork - and she was
> saying things like "It's OK" to her husband. I get tongue-tied in
> situations like that, because I do want to advocate for the child,
> whom it *seems like* doesn't have a voice, and I want to introduce a
> different way to look at things. A few other couples there were
> responding in a mainstream way - oh, yeah, you have to keep tape away
> from little ones!, etc.
>
> Writing this out just helped me see that I *don't know* what goes on
> in their homes, these people weren't close friends, I know them from
> the neighborhood farmer's market. I don't want to come across as "all
> knowing" or superior - even though I apparently have that judgment in
> me somewhere, unfortunately!


I do exactly what you did - just go ahead and express my own true
response. I'd have said the exact same thing..."Oh, cool, it is like
she's having an art show! Maybe you could have a "grand opening" with
cookies and tea or something."

IF I get a negative reaction, I shut up. If I get a look like I'm a
little nuts - I just smile. I'd say that most of the time I get
"You're a lot nicer than I am" - literally those words. I say, "Well,
you can use my idea if you want."

All said with a smile and very gently. They didn't come to me to ask
for unschooling help, so I don't give advice directly, but just
respond with some positive enthusiasm that just MIGHT help them see
there are other responses possible. What often happens is that they
also smile and they pick up on the good feeling of being supportive
rather than obstructive. Sounds like, in your case, the mom caught the
feeling - sensed the good that could come of the kind of attitude you
expressed. That's great - it is enough if you leave her with a little
sense that things could be more positive. Lots of times parents are
inclined to be more supportive, but they have these voices in their
heads saying it is not "good parenting" to allow kids to "get away
with" stuff. You provided a countering voice to that message. It is IN
her head now. A gentle voice saying, "It is okay to go along with what
your child wants."

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carron Armstrong

I've run into situations like this with family members. No one in my
husband's family has ever criticized our homeschool or parenting choices
(thank goodness), but they're all so conventional. When you mentioned the
taped artwork, I immediately thought of my SIL's pristeen home. Her
children's artwork is in clear frames on the fridge door. That's about the
only public sign that three boys actually live in that house!

Whenever something like that has come up I usually say something like,
"Thank goodness I don't have a thousand dollar paint job! We buy cheap
or used furniture and make everything washable. Otherwise, I couldn't take
the stress."

By the way, I still have about 10 handprints on one wall that my 3 year old
(now 11 yo) daughter made with a rainbow stamp pad. On another wall, we
still have red streamer decorations from my son's birthday party last
year. Sitting on the TV are some coiled pots that he made in an art class
several years ago. My house isn't a place to display things. It's a place
to live!

Carron

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 8:06 AM, carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:

> -=-=-Are you the first comment, which says "I'm sick"?-=-=-
>
> Yep, that was mine, and Alex's is right under that. I love Patti's
> thoughtful reply.
>
> My question was less about this particular instance than it was asking
> in general - when do I speak out? How can I do so without alienating
> people - or do I need to worry about that? I know that some
> unschooling advocates are VERY outspoken - but I think they turn quite
> a few people off. I want to introduce the idea that there's a
> different way to see things, and advocate for the children, but dont'
> want to push people away. Here's another example:
>
> I was at a party recently, and a couple was telling the story of
> coming home earlier that day and finding their youngest daughter had
> taped up every one of her drawings. The dad said, "I thought we had
> the tape put away!" and the mom said, "I guess she can reach that
> drawer now!" I said, "Wow - that's fantastic! She was doing an art
> show! Maybe you could invite some of her friends over?" And the dad
> said, "Oh, no. I just painted that room! I'm not going to have a
> thousand dollar paint job ruined!" His attitude was - of course, we
> can't have these drawings on the wall!
>
> Of course, now, after some time, I can see I could have suggested a
> win/win - picking a couple to frame & put up, finding something other
> than tape to put them up with so it doesn't damage the wall, etc. But
> at the time, I was silent, because what I *wanted* to say was "So your
> wall is more important than your daughter's creativity?" Which I knew
> was contentious. His wife picked up on my attitude - that it was
> absolutely OK to decorate your home with kids' artwork - and she was
> saying things like "It's OK" to her husband. I get tongue-tied in
> situations like that, because I do want to advocate for the child,
> whom it *seems like* doesn't have a voice, and I want to introduce a
> different way to look at things. A few other couples there were
> responding in a mainstream way - oh, yeah, you have to keep tape away
> from little ones!, etc.
>
> Writing this out just helped me see that I *don't know* what goes on
> in their homes, these people weren't close friends, I know them from
> the neighborhood farmer's market. I don't want to come across as "all
> knowing" or superior - even though I apparently have that judgment in
> me somewhere, unfortunately!
>
> Thanks for helping me untangle all this - all thoughts appreciated!
>
> Caren
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carron Armstrong

And what about the food thing? It really sticks in my craw when I'm with
other folks -- and this is especially true with my husband's mother and
sisters -- who tell their kids that they can't get up from the table until
they eat "3 more bites of" meat or veggies or whatever. At Easter, my 12 yo
nephew was clearing the table but wouldn't take his little brother's plate
to the kitchen because little brother "hasn't eaten enough."

On more than one occasion, my husband has said point blank, "Why does he
have to eat when he obviously isn't hungry?"

Carron

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 8:06 AM, carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:

> -=-=-Are you the first comment, which says "I'm sick"?-=-=-
>
> Yep, that was mine, and Alex's is right under that. I love Patti's
> thoughtful reply.
>
> My question was less about this particular instance than it was asking
> in general - when do I speak out? How can I do so without alienating
> people - or do I need to worry about that? I know that some
> unschooling advocates are VERY outspoken - but I think they turn quite
> a few people off. I want to introduce the idea that there's a
> different way to see things, and advocate for the children, but dont'
> want to push people away. Here's another example:
>
> I was at a party recently, and a couple was telling the story of
> coming home earlier that day and finding their youngest daughter had
> taped up every one of her drawings. The dad said, "I thought we had
> the tape put away!" and the mom said, "I guess she can reach that
> drawer now!" I said, "Wow - that's fantastic! She was doing an art
> show! Maybe you could invite some of her friends over?" And the dad
> said, "Oh, no. I just painted that room! I'm not going to have a
> thousand dollar paint job ruined!" His attitude was - of course, we
> can't have these drawings on the wall!
>
> Of course, now, after some time, I can see I could have suggested a
> win/win - picking a couple to frame & put up, finding something other
> than tape to put them up with so it doesn't damage the wall, etc. But
> at the time, I was silent, because what I *wanted* to say was "So your
> wall is more important than your daughter's creativity?" Which I knew
> was contentious. His wife picked up on my attitude - that it was
> absolutely OK to decorate your home with kids' artwork - and she was
> saying things like "It's OK" to her husband. I get tongue-tied in
> situations like that, because I do want to advocate for the child,
> whom it *seems like* doesn't have a voice, and I want to introduce a
> different way to look at things. A few other couples there were
> responding in a mainstream way - oh, yeah, you have to keep tape away
> from little ones!, etc.
>
> Writing this out just helped me see that I *don't know* what goes on
> in their homes, these people weren't close friends, I know them from
> the neighborhood farmer's market. I don't want to come across as "all
> knowing" or superior - even though I apparently have that judgment in
> me somewhere, unfortunately!
>
> Thanks for helping me untangle all this - all thoughts appreciated!
>
> Caren
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...>
wrote:
> My question was less about this particular instance than it was
asking
> in general - when do I speak out? How can I do so without
alienating
> people - or do I need to worry about that? I know that some
> unschooling advocates are VERY outspoken - but I think they turn
quite
> a few people off. I want to introduce the idea that there's a
> different way to see things, and advocate for the children, but
dont'
> want to push people away. Here's another example:
>
> I was at a party recently, and a couple was telling the story of
> coming home earlier that day and finding their youngest daughter
had
> taped up every one of her drawings. The dad said, "I thought we had
> the tape put away!" and the mom said, "I guess she can reach that
> drawer now!" I said, "Wow - that's fantastic! She was doing an art
> show! Maybe you could invite some of her friends over?" And the dad
> said, "Oh, no. I just painted that room! I'm not going to have a
> thousand dollar paint job ruined!" His attitude was - of course, we
> can't have these drawings on the wall!


I think that's a fine response. I wish I could come up with stuff
like that in the moment. I'm the type that would've blurted out
something like what you were thinking about the wall being more
important than the child. I'm the one who tends to alienate others,
though that's not my intention.

You said your piece. You can't control how others will take it. You
never know. That dad may have gone home and thought more about what
you said. Even if he didn't, maybe someone else did.

I think the best way to advocate for RU or AP or breastfeeding or
whatever is to model the behavior, speak your truth about yourself
(not about others) and then let it go. Don't get attached to any
expected outcome.

Alysia

Judy R

I live in a shared house with another single mom - between us we have 5 teenagers...the house is a bit run- down - it was formerly an up/down triplex that we now just kind of live all over. One of the teenaged boys started to get interested in graffiti - and he and a friend of his started going out at nights and spray painting a semi-abandoned school nearby. He told us about it - anyway, the point of this story is that we started letting him do it in the back of the house down the basement stairs and walls - he doesn't go out at night anymore (so he says, and I think he's telling me the truth) - but I just had to share that - I mean, it can all be painted over one day - they even paint over it after awile and go again - but that's what I love about a run-down house - you get to live in it rather than "for" it...we also don't hesitate to cut holes in the walls or floors to run internet wires or whatever - I know it can all be fixed later - it's so liberating! And such a blessing to just not have to worry about it....Judy R in Kingston loving the unschooling life with 5 teenagers!
----- Original Message -----
From: Carron Armstrong
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: When to say something?


I've run into situations like this with family members. No one in my
husband's family has ever criticized our homeschool or parenting choices
(thank goodness), but they're all so conventional. When you mentioned the
taped artwork, I immediately thought of my SIL's pristeen home. Her
children's artwork is in clear frames on the fridge door. That's about the
only public sign that three boys actually live in that house!

Whenever something like that has come up I usually say something like,
"Thank goodness I don't have a thousand dollar paint job! We buy cheap
or used furniture and make everything washable. Otherwise, I couldn't take
the stress."

By the way, I still have about 10 handprints on one wall that my 3 year old
(now 11 yo) daughter made with a rainbow stamp pad. On another wall, we
still have red streamer decorations from my son's birthday party last
year. Sitting on the TV are some coiled pots that he made in an art class
several years ago. My house isn't a place to display things. It's a place
to live!

Carron

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 8:06 AM, carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:

> -=-=-Are you the first comment, which says "I'm sick"?-=-=-
>
> Yep, that was mine, and Alex's is right under that. I love Patti's
> thoughtful reply.
>
> My question was less about this particular instance than it was asking
> in general - when do I speak out? How can I do so without alienating
> people - or do I need to worry about that? I know that some
> unschooling advocates are VERY outspoken - but I think they turn quite
> a few people off. I want to introduce the idea that there's a
> different way to see things, and advocate for the children, but dont'
> want to push people away. Here's another example:
>
> I was at a party recently, and a couple was telling the story of
> coming home earlier that day and finding their youngest daughter had
> taped up every one of her drawings. The dad said, "I thought we had
> the tape put away!" and the mom said, "I guess she can reach that
> drawer now!" I said, "Wow - that's fantastic! She was doing an art
> show! Maybe you could invite some of her friends over?" And the dad
> said, "Oh, no. I just painted that room! I'm not going to have a
> thousand dollar paint job ruined!" His attitude was - of course, we
> can't have these drawings on the wall!
>
> Of course, now, after some time, I can see I could have suggested a
> win/win - picking a couple to frame & put up, finding something other
> than tape to put them up with so it doesn't damage the wall, etc. But
> at the time, I was silent, because what I *wanted* to say was "So your
> wall is more important than your daughter's creativity?" Which I knew
> was contentious. His wife picked up on my attitude - that it was
> absolutely OK to decorate your home with kids' artwork - and she was
> saying things like "It's OK" to her husband. I get tongue-tied in
> situations like that, because I do want to advocate for the child,
> whom it *seems like* doesn't have a voice, and I want to introduce a
> different way to look at things. A few other couples there were
> responding in a mainstream way - oh, yeah, you have to keep tape away
> from little ones!, etc.
>
> Writing this out just helped me see that I *don't know* what goes on
> in their homes, these people weren't close friends, I know them from
> the neighborhood farmer's market. I don't want to come across as "all
> knowing" or superior - even though I apparently have that judgment in
> me somewhere, unfortunately!
>
> Thanks for helping me untangle all this - all thoughts appreciated!
>
> Caren
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

Isn't there a saying for it? -- "Cleaning house is removing all
evidence people live there." :D

I've gone through the phase of "Leave that alone!" to "that looks
fun!". It takes a lot of self-examination that mainstream parents may
not be ready for. I remember being resistant to it before unschooling.
No magic bullet for it, just an individual process...

Adrean

On 5/27/08, Carron Armstrong <carronna@...> wrote:
> And what about the food thing? It really sticks in my craw when I'm with
> other folks -- and this is especially true with my husband's mother and
> sisters -- who tell their kids that they can't get up from the table until
> they eat "3 more bites of" meat or veggies or whatever. At Easter, my 12 yo
> nephew was clearing the table but wouldn't take his little brother's plate
> to the kitchen because little brother "hasn't eaten enough."
>
> On more than one occasion, my husband has said point blank, "Why does he
> have to eat when he obviously isn't hungry?"
>
> Carron
>
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 8:06 AM, carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
>> -=-=-Are you the first comment, which says "I'm sick"?-=-=-
>>
>> Yep, that was mine, and Alex's is right under that. I love Patti's
>> thoughtful reply.
>>
>> My question was less about this particular instance than it was asking
>> in general - when do I speak out? How can I do so without alienating
>> people - or do I need to worry about that? I know that some
>> unschooling advocates are VERY outspoken - but I think they turn quite
>> a few people off. I want to introduce the idea that there's a
>> different way to see things, and advocate for the children, but dont'
>> want to push people away. Here's another example:
>>
>> I was at a party recently, and a couple was telling the story of
>> coming home earlier that day and finding their youngest daughter had
>> taped up every one of her drawings. The dad said, "I thought we had
>> the tape put away!" and the mom said, "I guess she can reach that
>> drawer now!" I said, "Wow - that's fantastic! She was doing an art
>> show! Maybe you could invite some of her friends over?" And the dad
>> said, "Oh, no. I just painted that room! I'm not going to have a
>> thousand dollar paint job ruined!" His attitude was - of course, we
>> can't have these drawings on the wall!
>>
>> Of course, now, after some time, I can see I could have suggested a
>> win/win - picking a couple to frame & put up, finding something other
>> than tape to put them up with so it doesn't damage the wall, etc. But
>> at the time, I was silent, because what I *wanted* to say was "So your
>> wall is more important than your daughter's creativity?" Which I knew
>> was contentious. His wife picked up on my attitude - that it was
>> absolutely OK to decorate your home with kids' artwork - and she was
>> saying things like "It's OK" to her husband. I get tongue-tied in
>> situations like that, because I do want to advocate for the child,
>> whom it *seems like* doesn't have a voice, and I want to introduce a
>> different way to look at things. A few other couples there were
>> responding in a mainstream way - oh, yeah, you have to keep tape away
>> from little ones!, etc.
>>
>> Writing this out just helped me see that I *don't know* what goes on
>> in their homes, these people weren't close friends, I know them from
>> the neighborhood farmer's market. I don't want to come across as "all
>> knowing" or superior - even though I apparently have that judgment in
>> me somewhere, unfortunately!
>>
>> Thanks for helping me untangle all this - all thoughts appreciated!
>>
>> Caren
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Pamela Sorooshian

Very cool - I hope somebody takes pictures before the paint over it.

-pam

On May 27, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Judy R wrote:

> - but I just had to share that - I mean, it can all be painted over
> one day - they even paint over it after awile and go again -



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alison Broadbent

I guess, for me it has to do w/how close I am to the family or
child. I think at first, RU seemed like something HAD tell
everybody. Now that it's a part of the fabric of our life, it seems
that along with that is an acceptance that I don't know what goes on
in someone else's mind. I really don't know what they can do. If
there's an opening, like a wondering on the parents part how to deal
w/ something, I'm right there.

My brother wanted his 7 yo dd to play the piano for us and she didn't
want to right then. I said oh she didn't have to if she didn't want
to. He insisted. I took him aside and said something about playing
the piano is a joyful thing and hopefully it would continue to be but
if he MADE her it probably wouldn't be and would have the opposite
effect. He said he'd think about it for the future but he asked her
already so she had to. Sigh

At other times when I'm not close to the person, I don't say
anything. If the child is there I might make a commiserating tone.

After we leave one of those situations and if Asher's witnessed it,
we might talk about it. I might say, it sounded as though it would
have been hard for the parents to let the kids do whatever it was.
Sometimes that ends up being a cool discussion about how others are,
without a lot of judgement but still saying it's too bad for the
kids. OK, so that's judgement but it's the holding of 2 different
things. One is what a person can manage in their life and the other
is commiseration w/ the child.

My space bar is hardly working today and this is too hard to type.
I'd say more but I have to go back and punch the space bar over and
over between the words. Aaack.

Alison