keetry

I don't know if anyone can help me with this. It may be beyond the
parameters of this group. I'm struggling with what to do about this
situation.

My 17yo son went to live with his previously absent father on the
1st of this year. His father is very irresponsible. He has no idea
how to take care of himself, much less provide for another person.
He took one of my son's only two pairs of shoes right after he moved
there. They've had their electricity turned off 3 or 4 times. My
mom, against my objections, signed a car she had over to his dad's
dad for my son to use. My son's driver's permit was revoked because
he wasn't attending school in NC and his dad couldn't be relied upon
to take him to DMV to get a VA license. Currently, the car is not
legally registered or insured but my son is still driving it. My son
has told me many times that he doesn't have any food. His dad
doesn't really have a job. He sporadically works for his father, who
doesn't always pay everyone. We gave our son a cell phone because
his dad can't seem to keep a phone active. His dad takes the phone
and uses it himself and leaves our son with no phone or any other
way to contact anyone.

I still have full legal custody of my son. There is no child support
order that requires us to give his dad any money. We don't mind
providing them with money to help with our son's necessities.
However, it is becoming more and more evident that not much of any
money we give them will go to necessities for our son. We don't want
our son to go hungry but we also don't like the idea of having to
support his dad.

My husband said he was going to buy food and ship it to our son.
I've gotten suggestions to send him gift cards for grocery stores so
we'd at least know the money was being spent on food even if it is
for everyone, including their roommate. I've also gotten suggestions
that I shouldn't give my son anything. If he's choosing to live
there, he needs to experience the full consequences of that. That
seems pretty harsh and not very generous or unconditional. I want to
support my son but I also don't want to make it easy for him to
adopt his dad's lifestyle.

Alysia

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...>
wrote:
>
>
> My 17yo son went to live with his previously absent father on the
> 1st of this year. His father is very irresponsible. He has no idea
> how to take care of himself, much less provide for another person.
> He took one of my son's only two pairs of shoes right after he
moved
> there. They've had their electricity turned off 3 or 4 times. My


Have you talked with your son about all this

why is he living there
why does he want to continue to live that way
why is he willing to be in that situation when he could be with you
is there a limit at which he would leave and come home
how long was he unschooled- if at all
how much choice and freedom did he have at home
what is it he is accomplishing by being at dads

I would want to know a little about what his thought process was and
what was driving him to make these choices

I think there is a limit of what you can do to support him while he
is living there- is he trying to mske life better for his dad and
you are sort of the one who is going to help dad because you are
helping him-

Julie

the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com

keetry

--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
> why is he living there

========
He wants to establish a real relationship with his dad.
===========

> why does he want to continue to live that way

========
He doesn't but he doesn't want to leave his dad.
========

> why is he willing to be in that situation when he could be with you

=======
See above.
=======

> is there a limit at which he would leave and come home

========
Yes. He said if his dad goes to jail, which is a real possibility
right now, he guesses he will have to come home. I think he wants to
come home but either doesn't want to admit that or doesn't want to
tell his dad. That could just be my wishful thinking, though. His
dad said repeatedly that, if he moved there, he couldn't just leave
again at his whim. I disagreed, of course, and told my son he could
come home whenever he wanted.
========

> how long was he unschooled- if at all

========
He attended school until almost halfway through 7th grade, when he
was 12. We tried school at home for a few months, which was a total
disaster. After that, we started unschooling but not really RU. He
chose to go back to school in the 9th grade, which he had to repeat,
but didn't go back again after the 2nd time. So, he was 16 when he
quit going to school again. After that was about 4 or 5 months of RU.
========

> how much choice and freedom did he have at home

========
He had a lot of choice and freedom at home in those last few months.
I think he thought he would still have more at his dad's. What he's
found is that he has absolutely no supervision or guidance at all. I
guess you could call that more freedom but he has less of everything
else.
========

> what is it he is accomplishing by being at dads

========
At this point, I don't know and I don't think he does, either. I
know what he wanted to accomplish but that isn't happening.
========

is he trying to mske life better for his dad and
> you are sort of the one who is going to help dad because you are
> helping him-

========
No, I don't think this is the case. He is generous and caring so he
wouldn't want to not help his dad. I think it's more a case of him
needing things and his dad not providing them but he shares with
them because they all live together. Also, I think his dad just sort
of takes things. For example, when my mom bought ds a laptop his dad
said he could really use it. They all live together so they all
share, which would be fine if his dad were providing the majority of
what is needed. We don't mind helping them as long as we know our
help is being used for what is needed. The problem is that is not
happening. His dad is obviously not providing for him the way he
should be and it's not just a case of not having the means.

Alysai

Judy R

Hi - this is a very tough one for sure -

I have had members of my family go through similar things with divorces and break-ups - and this is a harsh lesson, but I think you have done everything that you can - you have left the door open to him - he probably won't let himself starve - most teenagers got hrough a period of time when they aren't eating well or are poor (students for instance) - hopefully he won't get involved in anything illegal - but it probably has to be totally up to him to decide that he's had enough or to see that living with his dad may not be healthy or good for him -

it's not an easy lesson for kids to learn about a parent - they so don't want it to be true - but as long as he isn't in any real physical danger, he will survive and learn from it - it may take even as long as a few years.

I am also basing this on my own experience as an older teenager when I lived in Amsterdam for a 2 years and did some illegal stuff (not a lot more than hashish, and that's barely illegal in A'dam, but still...) - we lived in a squat and spent all our time getting stoned and selling hash to get more hash, etc - all very cool and hippie - eventually I got busted by being associated with some people that were dealing cocaine, that I wasn't directly involved with - very scary, foreign country, slapped in jail for an interminable 3 days not knowing what was going to happen...luckily they let me go and I was able to contact my family and get home - I continued the same sort of lifestyle back in the US until my mid-twenties when I finally started figuring out that that lifestyle wasn't what I wanted - I am 52 now with 2 children and a stable life, but it took me years to get here -

So my point is (*and I do have a point*) is that he is going through his life - I'm sure it is incredibly painful to watch - but I also think as I said in the beginning you may have done all you can for now, leaving the door open - and hopefully he is a wiser person than I was and he won't go so long or so far down an unhealthy road - but even as bad as I was, I was lucky that nothing too serious happened and I came out if it, and can now use those experiences to talk with kids about the realities of the "druggie life" having been there - I'm not implying that he's going to be a druggie, rather that however scary it may be to you what he's getting into with his dad, it's probably NOT as bad as the druggie life and most likely he will (eventually) figure it out for himself. You probably now have the hardest job of all parenting and that is letting him make his own mistakes, while also letting him know he can come to you anytime and there will be no recriminations or judgements or anything - the prodigal son thing, right? Best wishes - Judy R. in Kingston


----- Original Message -----
From: keetry
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 1:11 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: RU with older teen not living at home


--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
> why is he living there

========
He wants to establish a real relationship with his dad.
===========

> why does he want to continue to live that way

========
He doesn't but he doesn't want to leave his dad.
========

> why is he willing to be in that situation when he could be with you

=======
See above.
=======

> is there a limit at which he would leave and come home

========
Yes. He said if his dad goes to jail, which is a real possibility
right now, he guesses he will have to come home. I think he wants to
come home but either doesn't want to admit that or doesn't want to
tell his dad. That could just be my wishful thinking, though. His
dad said repeatedly that, if he moved there, he couldn't just leave
again at his whim. I disagreed, of course, and told my son he could
come home whenever he wanted.
========

> how long was he unschooled- if at all

========
He attended school until almost halfway through 7th grade, when he
was 12. We tried school at home for a few months, which was a total
disaster. After that, we started unschooling but not really RU. He
chose to go back to school in the 9th grade, which he had to repeat,
but didn't go back again after the 2nd time. So, he was 16 when he
quit going to school again. After that was about 4 or 5 months of RU.
========

> how much choice and freedom did he have at home

========
He had a lot of choice and freedom at home in those last few months.
I think he thought he would still have more at his dad's. What he's
found is that he has absolutely no supervision or guidance at all. I
guess you could call that more freedom but he has less of everything
else.
========

> what is it he is accomplishing by being at dads

========
At this point, I don't know and I don't think he does, either. I
know what he wanted to accomplish but that isn't happening.
========

is he trying to mske life better for his dad and
> you are sort of the one who is going to help dad because you are
> helping him-

========
No, I don't think this is the case. He is generous and caring so he
wouldn't want to not help his dad. I think it's more a case of him
needing things and his dad not providing them but he shares with
them because they all live together. Also, I think his dad just sort
of takes things. For example, when my mom bought ds a laptop his dad
said he could really use it. They all live together so they all
share, which would be fine if his dad were providing the majority of
what is needed. We don't mind helping them as long as we know our
help is being used for what is needed. The problem is that is not
happening. His dad is obviously not providing for him the way he
should be and it's not just a case of not having the means.

Alysai





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...>
wrote:
>
> ========
> He wants to establish a real relationship with his dad.
> ===========
> ========
> He doesn't but he doesn't want to leave his dad.
> ========
> ========
> Yes. He said if his dad goes to jail, which is a real possibility
> right now, he guesses he will have to come home. I think he wants
to
> come home but either doesn't want to admit that or doesn't want to
> tell his dad. That could just be my wishful thinking, though. His
> dad said repeatedly that, if he moved there, he couldn't just
leave
> again at his whim. I disagreed, of course, and told my son he
could
> come home whenever he wanted.
> ========
>
> > how long was he unschooled- if at all
>
> ========
> He attended school until almost halfway through 7th grade, when he
> was 12. We tried school at home for a few months, which was a
total
> disaster. After that, we started unschooling but not really RU. He
> chose to go back to school in the 9th grade, which he had to
repeat,
> but didn't go back again after the 2nd time. So, he was 16 when he
> quit going to school again. After that was about 4 or 5 months of
RU.
> ========
>
> > how much choice and freedom did he have at home
>
> ========
> He had a lot of choice and freedom at home in those last few
months.
> I think he thought he would still have more at his dad's. What
he's
> found is that he has absolutely no supervision or guidance at all.
I
> guess you could call that more freedom but he has less of
everything
> else.
> ========
>
> > what is it he is accomplishing by being at dads
>
> ========
> At this point, I don't know and I don't think he does, either. I
> know what he wanted to accomplish but that isn't happening.
> ========
>
> is he trying to mske life better for his dad and
> > you are sort of the one who is going to help dad because you are
> > helping him-
>
> ========
> No, I don't think this is the case. He is generous and caring so
he
> wouldn't want to not help his dad. I think it's more a case of him
> needing things and his dad not providing them but he shares with
> them because they all live together. Also, I think his dad just
sort
> of takes things. For example, when my mom bought ds a laptop his
dad
> said he could really use it. They all live together so they all
> share, which would be fine if his dad were providing the majority
of
> what is needed. We don't mind helping them as long as we know our
> help is being used for what is needed. The problem is that is not
> happening. His dad is obviously not providing for him the way he
> should be and it's not just a case of not having the means.
>
> Alysai

all of that being said I think he wants to be able to "help" his dad
and can not just "walk" away- though if forced away by circumstances
he would do it-

If you have the ability to help him be a little more comfortable
than maybe treat it like he was a kid away at camp or college- is
there a amount of money that you could send to him to do with what
he feels he needs to?

Give him the money and let him be in charge of it- let him
experiment with it and see what happens- maybe he will use it just
for himself or may be generous and share-

Julie

the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com

kel9769

Alysa
Big hugs to you. I have not had to go through this yet but I have a
lot of empathy for you. I know as a young woman I put my mom
through some hard times. Abusive relationship, unplanned
pregnancy. As a mom to my own young woman I totally get how hard it
was for my mom to be there, keep her mouth shut and still let me
know she supported me as a person even though she was afraid my
decisions were hurting me. She got advice to force me to go to a
shelter instead of letting me come home with my baby to make me
leave her father. Thankfully she chose not to do that and I made my
own choice to protect myself and my daughter within a few months. I
still had my relationship with my mom to help me through the hard
times that followed.

This is the hardest thing you will ever do but remember your
relatioship with your son is the most important thing. If you let
him make his own mistakes but let him know you are there for him he
will turn to you when he is ready. I would definitely send him some
money regularly. At 17 you are responsible for him even if it's not
a legal requiement. Your physical as well as emotional support
shouldn't be tied to him doing what you want him to do. Most of
all check in with him regularly and ask him if he needs anything.
He will come home when he's ready and the relationship will be that
much stronger.
Kelly

Judy R

Dear KellY - beautiful story and beautiful advice for all of us - my girls are now 13 1/2 and who knows what the future holds for any of us - thank you so much for sharing that. Judy R. in Kingston
----- Original Message -----
From: kel9769
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:34 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: RU with older teen not living at home


Alysa
Big hugs to you. I have not had to go through this yet but I have a
lot of empathy for you. I know as a young woman I put my mom
through some hard times. Abusive relationship, unplanned
pregnancy. As a mom to my own young woman I totally get how hard it
was for my mom to be there, keep her mouth shut and still let me
know she supported me as a person even though she was afraid my
decisions were hurting me. She got advice to force me to go to a
shelter instead of letting me come home with my baby to make me
leave her father. Thankfully she chose not to do that and I made my
own choice to protect myself and my daughter within a few months. I
still had my relationship with my mom to help me through the hard
times that followed.

This is the hardest thing you will ever do but remember your
relatioship with your son is the most important thing. If you let
him make his own mistakes but let him know you are there for him he
will turn to you when he is ready. I would definitely send him some
money regularly. At 17 you are responsible for him even if it's not
a legal requiement. Your physical as well as emotional support
shouldn't be tied to him doing what you want him to do. Most of
all check in with him regularly and ask him if he needs anything.
He will come home when he's ready and the relationship will be that
much stronger.
Kelly





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 27, 2008, at 7:34 AM, kel9769 wrote:

> I would definitely send him some
> money regularly. At 17 you are responsible for him even if it's not
> a legal requiement. Your physical as well as emotional support
> shouldn't be tied to him doing what you want him to do. Most of
> all check in with him regularly and ask him if he needs anything.
> He will come home when he's ready and the relationship will be that
> much stronger.


Another voice here in support of this approach. You could send him
gift cards for groceries or for fast food places like Subway, where at
least he'll be getting nutritious food. I'd toss in some extras for
him, too, like maybe a gift card to go to a movie. You want him to
feel the love coming from you, and teens can be very concrete in how
they sense love. Don't withdraw - don't let your hurt or anger or
frustration at his father even appear to diminish your love for your
son. And don't let him feel out of contact, no matter what it takes.
Send him little things in the mail all the time - print out a comic
strip that you think he'll like, or a magazine article about something
he's interested in. Be creative. It doesn't matter too much what it is
- he'll know that you were thinking about him a lot, even though he's
not there with you. Send him little things - often. A pair of shoes. A
photo. Does he have an mp3 or cd player? You could make him playlists.
Just trying to think of all the various ways you might constantly keep
connecting supportively with him.

Don't worry so much that you're supporting his father, along with him.
Your son won't see it that way - he'll see it as your strong love for
him. Later, he'll think, "She kept right on showing how much she loved
me, even when I made such hurtful choices."

Isn't that what you want?

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

Thank you everyone for your responses. I didn't follow the "proper"
path to adulthood, either, so I think I have a lot of understanding
for what my son is going through/doing. I was so lucky that my mom
supported me financially through all my early fiascos.

>I would definitely send him some
> money regularly. At 17 you are responsible for him even if it's not
> a legal requiement. Your physical as well as emotional support
> shouldn't be tied to him doing what you want him to do. Most of
> all check in with him regularly and ask him if he needs anything.

This is what I feel I should do. I've been getting advice from others
telling me I shouldn't give him anything. He is choosing to stay in
that situation even though he doesn't have to so he should have to
deal with the consequences. The thing is that when it's a parent/child
relationship it's not that simple. It's not the same as if he had
moved out with a group of friends and was just partying all the time
and not doing anything else.

My husband has already got a care package of food packed to send to
him. We're now just trying to decide whether to put regular deposits
in his bank account or send him Wal-Mart gift cards. I hate to support
Wal-Mart but that's where he shops and can get just about anything he
needs.

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> Another voice here in support of this approach. You could send
him
> gift cards for groceries or for fast food places like Subway,
where at
> least he'll be getting nutritious food. I'd toss in some extras
for
> him, too, like maybe a gift card to go to a movie. You want him
to
> feel the love coming from you, and teens can be very concrete in
how
> they sense love. Don't withdraw - don't let your hurt or anger or
> frustration at his father even appear to diminish your love for
your
> son. And don't let him feel out of contact, no matter what it
takes.
> Send him little things in the mail all the time - print out a
comic
> strip that you think he'll like, or a magazine article about
something
> he's interested in. Be creative. It doesn't matter too much what
it is
> - he'll know that you were thinking about him a lot, even though
he's
> not there with you. Send him little things - often. A pair of
shoes. A
> photo. Does he have an mp3 or cd player? You could make him
playlists.
> Just trying to think of all the various ways you might constantly
keep
> connecting supportively with him.
>
> Don't worry so much that you're supporting his father, along with
him.
> Your son won't see it that way - he'll see it as your strong love
for
> him. Later, he'll think, "She kept right on showing how much she
loved
> me, even when I made such hurtful choices."
>
> Isn't that what you want?
>
> -pam


Yes, that's absolutely what I want. Those are all great ideas.
Thanks. He called yesterday and we had a really good conversation
about a bunch of nothing. He called while he was watching TV just to
talk. One thing he said that I thought was funny was that he doesn't
ask his paternal grandmother for money often even though his cousins
whom she has custody of ask her for money several times a day and
she gives it to them and all the money she makes goes to those kids.
He said she gives him money whenever he asks but he doesn't feel
comfortable asking anyone but me for money. That might seem kind of
strange but what it says to me is that he knows he can ask me and I
will give it to him if I can, whatever it is, without any hassle or
anything. That made me feel good.

Alysia

Jodi Bezzola

keetry <keetry@...> wrote:

~~he knows he can ask me and I will give it to him if I can, whatever it is, without any hassle or anything. That made me feel good.~~

Sounds to me like in this parental challenge of showing unconditional love, you're screaming by in the fast lane :). What a huge gift you're giving him by meeting HIM with love right where he is in this moment.

Jodi



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

juillet727

Hi--I really agree with the posts below.
I was also thinking--if your the dad gets wind of possible gifts
coming in the mail and tries to intercept them or snag them, maybe get
a post office box? If it's convenient for your son to get to. Just a
thought.
~~Juillet




> On May 27, 2008, at 7:34 AM, kel9769 wrote:
>
> > I would definitely send him some
> > money regularly. At 17 you are responsible for him even if it's not
> > a legal requiement. Your physical as well as emotional support
> > shouldn't be tied to him doing what you want him to do. Most of
> > all check in with him regularly and ask him if he needs anything.
> > He will come home when he's ready and the relationship will be
that much stronger.



>--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> Another voice here in support of this approach. You could send him
> gift cards for groceries or for fast food places like Subway, where at
> least he'll be getting nutritious food. I'd toss in some extras for
> him, too, like maybe a gift card to go to a movie. You want him to
> feel the love coming from you, and teens can be very concrete in how
> they sense love. Don't withdraw - don't let your hurt or anger or
> frustration at his father even appear to diminish your love for your
> son. And don't let him feel out of contact, no matter what it takes.
> Send him little things in the mail all the time - print out a comic
> strip that you think he'll like, or a magazine article about something
> he's interested in. Be creative. It doesn't matter too much what it is
> - he'll know that you were thinking about him a lot, even though he's
> not there with you. Send him little things - often. A pair of shoes. A
> photo. Does he have an mp3 or cd player? You could make him playlists.
> Just trying to think of all the various ways you might constantly keep
> connecting supportively with him.
>
> Don't worry so much that you're supporting his father, along with him.
> Your son won't see it that way - he'll see it as your strong love for
> him. Later, he'll think, "She kept right on showing how much she loved
> me, even when I made such hurtful choices."
>
> Isn't that what you want?
>
> -pam

lauramae117

when reading this, i also think "haven't gone through this *yet*" i
have always felt that at some point my son, who's now 11, will wonder
about his *real* father and will want to go live with him.

Also, thank you so much for sharing. this gives many of us an idea
of what that time could be like.

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear KellY - beautiful story and beautiful advice for all of us -
my girls are now 13 1/2 and who knows what the future holds for any
of us - thank you so much for sharing that. Judy R. in Kingston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kel9769
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:34 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: RU with older teen not living at
home
>
>
> Alysa
> Big hugs to you. I have not had to go through this yet but I have
a
> lot of empathy for you. I know as a young woman I put my mom
> through some hard times. Abusive relationship, unplanned
> pregnancy. As a mom to my own young woman I totally get how hard
it
> was for my mom to be there, keep her mouth shut and still let me
> know she supported me as a person even though she was afraid my
> decisions were hurting me. She got advice to force me to go to a
> shelter instead of letting me come home with my baby to make me
> leave her father. Thankfully she chose not to do that and I made
my
> own choice to protect myself and my daughter within a few months.
I
> still had my relationship with my mom to help me through the hard
> times that followed.
>
> This is the hardest thing you will ever do but remember your
> relatioship with your son is the most important thing. If you let
> him make his own mistakes but let him know you are there for him
he
> will turn to you when he is ready. I would definitely send him
some
> money regularly. At 17 you are responsible for him even if it's
not
> a legal requiement. Your physical as well as emotional support
> shouldn't be tied to him doing what you want him to do. Most of
> all check in with him regularly and ask him if he needs anything.
> He will come home when he's ready and the relationship will be
that
> much stronger.
> Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>