Tyra Olufemi

Peace to you all!

I am Tyra, a blast from the past on this group. Just 3 short years
ago, I was a newbee on this list. I asked questions, read posts, had
my toes stepped on by the gurus and struggled like many newbies
struggle.

To this day I hear words that I have read in this group. I once
remember reading about a mother whose daughter's room gets really
junky...so junky that the child is too overwhelmed to clean it. The
mother said that she cleans her daughter's room and that the daugther
would come to her and thank her for a clean room.

I found that fascinating because at the time I was still under the
impression that children clean their rooms. I have friends who make
their children...young children such as 4, 5, and 6 clean their rooms
by themselves.

But because I really believed in unschooling and did not want to
mandate my children cleaning their rooms, I decided to clean their
room for them when it gets too messy. My children are 4 and 7 years
old respectively. My 7 year old son truly is one who leaves
his "stuff" lying around the house. We have had many discussion on
why he does this when we can't find what he is looking for. I tell
him that clutter disturbs me. He tells me that he likes his room
messy....so on and so on....

WELL, the other day I went into his room while he was sleeping and I
cleaned it. When he awoke, he had a neat and clean room where he
could find whatever he needed. He walked into my room and
said, "Thank you for cleaning my room Mama." I about fell out! I
immediately thought about the mother I described earlier and this
group as a whole.

His gratitude for the clean room warms my heart more than my making
him clean his room. And what I find is that my modeling cleaning my
home is what makes my children do the same at times. It makes me
feel good and we have way more harmony and peace as a result.

So I write this as a thank you to all whose knowledge and wisdom in
the unschooling thang has helped me. I write to tell the newbies
that the sooner you just go with what is being said to you in this
group, the sooner you will be one who says, "Yeah, Radical
Unschooling really works." and you will truly mean it.

Love to you all
Tyra in Tennessee

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Hey Tyra ! Good to hear from you.



Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeanette Crichton

<<<<<To this day I hear words that I have read in this group. I once
remember reading about a mother whose daughter's room gets really
junky...so junky that the child is too overwhelmed to clean it. The
mother said that she cleans her daughter's room and that the daugther
would come to her and thank her for a clean room.>>>>>>>

Other than the fact that I went to school, my mother was a radical unschooler (not sure what you'd call that!). I still remember the times that I would come home to a spotless bedroom. She never bugged me to clean my room and if I was home she'd come in and help me. We would first make the bed then pile everything on top of it. We would work together sorting everything off the bed. To this day my mom comes into my house like a little cleaning storm. She helps me with anything-without any judgement! I am just like my mom when it comes to cleaning. We aren't good at KEEPING things clean, but we sure know how to clean up messes and make things look great! When I was in school, I never understood why everyone hated their parents and I was so close to mine. Since discovering unschooling, I now understand where all of those parents went wrong.

Jeanette





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim Musolff

***When I was in school, I never understood why everyone hated their parents
and I was so close to mine. Since discovering unschooling, I now understand
where all of those parents went wrong.***

I'm so glad you wrote this. It really struck a chord with my latest
unschooling struggle. It wasn't the fact that you were "unschooled" that
allowed you to have a close relationship with your parents. What was it?
Their attitude? Their respect for you? How they weren't judgmental and you
could feel like you could talk to them about anything? The way they
communicated with you?

Sometimes when I read this list, I feel like if I don't do *everything*
right, my kids will grow up without a good relationship with me. If I don't
let them have total control over their food, bedtimes, chores, things they
learn, whether or not they go someplace with us, how much tv and computer
they watch, etc. then they won't ever learn how to be passionate, motivated
life-long learners. If I ever gave them praise or punishment, they wouldn't
turn out to be great people.

I'm realizing that this is my perfectionism creeping up on me again. It not
really about following these rules, it's about being thoughtful about what
you are doing. If, for whatever reason, DH and I decide that bedtimes are
needed in our home (which they are NOT, by the way!), it doesn't mean that
we are not unschoolers. It doesn't mean that our children will not have
good relationships with us or have sleep issues or hate learning.

I think I was going about unschooling all wrong. I think I was trying to
replace my old rules with new ones. But that's really missing the point. I
think we talk about things like bedtimes, food control, learning to read,
etc. because a lot of parents deal with these things without being very
thoughtful about them. (Why do we *have to* put kids to bed at 8:00 every
night, if they don't have to get up for anything or if they are not tired?)
But that doesn't mean I have to follow the a "no bedtime" rule, if it works
for our family. Following all the "rules" of unschooling, isn't what makes
great kids. It's our attitudes, our respect for each other, our
thoughfulness.

Thanks for making me think!

Kim, in CO


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sunflowermom30

i have a question about how this bedroom cleaning idea works...i'm
really trying to figure some of this out...not at all criticizing,
just mulling it all over in my head...

i am not of the mindset that my daughter MUST keep her room
clean...after all, it IS her space, not mine. but it is me she
constantly comes to to help her find things that she cannot find
because she leaves them laying anywhere and everywhere...so it does
still affect me...and we work on the fact that it sure is nice when
you know just where things are...and of course i realize i am not
always great at doing this either (putting things back where they
belong), so its always a work in progress...

and also, i don't mind going in and helping my daughter to get her
room straightened when its become a cause of stress to her...so much
so that getting to bed is an issue (because she can't reach the bed!)
and i know she would be much happier and play for hours at a time in
her room if only she had floor space to play...and i know that
telling a child to just go "clean your room" really doesn't help,
because they don't necessarily know how to do that.

so my question is...if you clean their room for them...and yes i do
do this for my daughter from time to time and she does appreciate
it...at what point do you think it could become an issue where the
child comes to expect that you just do it for them and they don't
have to and at what point is it still appreciated? i suppose it is an
individual thing for the child and the parent and no perfect answer
for this...but it does concern me.

i want my children to be able to feel the pride and joy that comes
from being able to tackle a big task like a messy room... this isn't
something i expect them to be able to accomplish at a young age but i
would like to do what i need to do to help them gain that ability
eventually. if it means simply modeling it now, then great...i just
want to make sure i'm not also setting them up to just expect others
to do for them. there are so many different ideas on that subject, i
know.

it is something i frequently have on my mind because i had a college
roommate who's mother cleaned her room for her and did probably
everything for her growing up and she was the WORST roommate...she
absolutely refused to help with the cleaning. she was the biggest
slob i've ever met. and very lazy. (there was a lot more of her life
that was affected by never having to do anything for herself, but
that's a whole 'nother story)

so i guess i'm just asking...how do you help without it getting to
the point where they expect it? how do you still help them learn good
life skills like how to keep a clean room (which will equate to a
clean house in adulthood). is modeling alone enough?

tina

--- In [email protected], "Tyra Olufemi"
<motherspirit@...> wrote:
>
> Peace to you all!
>
> I am Tyra, a blast from the past on this group. Just 3 short years
> ago, I was a newbee on this list. I asked questions, read posts,
had
> my toes stepped on by the gurus and struggled like many newbies
> struggle.
>
> To this day I hear words that I have read in this group. I once
> remember reading about a mother whose daughter's room gets really
> junky...so junky that the child is too overwhelmed to clean it.
The
> mother said that she cleans her daughter's room and that the
daugther
> would come to her and thank her for a clean room.
>
> I found that fascinating because at the time I was still under the
> impression that children clean their rooms. I have friends who
make
> their children...young children such as 4, 5, and 6 clean their
rooms
> by themselves.
>
> But because I really believed in unschooling and did not want to
> mandate my children cleaning their rooms, I decided to clean their
> room for them when it gets too messy. My children are 4 and 7 years
> old respectively. My 7 year old son truly is one who leaves
> his "stuff" lying around the house. We have had many discussion on
> why he does this when we can't find what he is looking for. I tell
> him that clutter disturbs me. He tells me that he likes his room
> messy....so on and so on....
>
> WELL, the other day I went into his room while he was sleeping and
I
> cleaned it. When he awoke, he had a neat and clean room where he
> could find whatever he needed. He walked into my room and
> said, "Thank you for cleaning my room Mama." I about fell out! I
> immediately thought about the mother I described earlier and this
> group as a whole.
>
> His gratitude for the clean room warms my heart more than my making
> him clean his room. And what I find is that my modeling cleaning
my
> home is what makes my children do the same at times. It makes me
> feel good and we have way more harmony and peace as a result.
>
> So I write this as a thank you to all whose knowledge and wisdom in
> the unschooling thang has helped me. I write to tell the newbies
> that the sooner you just go with what is being said to you in this
> group, the sooner you will be one who says, "Yeah, Radical
> Unschooling really works." and you will truly mean it.
>
> Love to you all
> Tyra in Tennessee
>

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

it is something i frequently have on my mind because i had a college
roommate who's mother cleaned her room for her and did probably
everything for her growing up and she was the WORST roommate...she
absolutely refused to help with the cleaning. she was the biggest
slob i've ever met. and very lazy. (there was a lot more of her life
that was affected by never having to do anything for herself, but
that's a whole 'nother story)

0=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\\\

I grew up in Brazil where not only we had a maid for everything my mom always did everything for us.
I have to say that after I had kids I had to let go of having a clean house all the time.
But having said that I grew up and moved away and became very clean. Actualy it started at home when I was a teen. Me and my sister started to learn tocok ( we alwasy had a cook) and to take care of our clothes and clean and orginize our stuff. I got to say that my sister is much more in to it than me but that is just personality.





Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Oh and my 5 year old has cleaned up his room all by himself one day when i was super stressed out and it was amazing.I did not find out until late at nigh when I walked in it.
He said he wanted to helped me.
Today he and his 28 month old sister where almost fighting to help me make a cake.





Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeanette Crichton

<<<<I'm so glad you wrote this. It really struck a chord with my latest

unschooling struggle. It wasn't the fact that you were "unschooled" that
allowed you to have a close relationship with your parents. What was it?
Their attitude? Their respect for you? How they weren't judgmental and you
could feel like you could talk to them about anything? The way they
communicated with you?>>>>>>
Right, I wasn't unschooled, I went to school. But I always knew that there was something different about my parents. When I look back on what they did so right (and continue to do) is to think that we are the best people ever. In fact, my mom says that to me to this day- "your kids need to know that they are the most wonderful people in the world!" She never said this to me, but she made me feel this way. My mom actually sees most everyone this way. She doesn't look at people and see flaws and shortcomings. She didn't look at my messy bedroom and think: she'll never learn to keep her room clean. In fact, when I was in college, one of my 5 jobs was cleaning houses and I was awesome at it! My parents had such confidence in us.
Another thing that stands out is that my parents didn't do things the way they were "supposed" to be done. They weren't hung up on the "right" way to raise kids. We rarely ate family dinners together, but we all hung out together on their bed at least once each day. My mom was all about connection. She said that the most difficult thing about us going to school was that she had to try so hard to reconnect with us every day, but she made it a PRIORITY.

I know this sounds strange, but another thing my parents did was help me make "excuses" for my mistakes. This was HUGE for me and my siblings. We never saw our faults, mistakes, shortcomings, etc. as being permanent. If there was an "excuse" then that meant that I could change it-if I wanted to, or I could accept something about myself as being unique. Grades, honors classes, perfect behavior, manners, responsibility, chores, curfews, etc- were not issues in our family. No one pushed these things. Relationships, fun, excitement, laughing, kindness, friendships, community, teamwork, and love were all valued. The funny thing was that even though my parents didn't push grades we were all decent to good students. Even though they didn't push good behavior-none of us ever got in trouble in school or out of school. Even though my parents didn't push chores/manners/responsibility most everyone would tell you that I was the most responsible, mature kid
they ever met! I used to get up on Saturday mornings at 6:00, get the newspaper, cut out coupons, make a grocery list, and then my dad would take me shopping. This was ALL my idea and I was in 4-6th grade when I did this. In high school I would come home from practice at 6:30 and go to bed, then I'd get up at 4:00 am to do my homework and go running. My mom would occasionally get up to read literature assignments to me because I just never "got it" when I read it to myself and my dad would get up to run with me. My brother and sister were responsible in their own ways too. (And we were all "irresponsible" in our own ways-which was accepted too.)

The final thing that stands out is that my parents were "in the back seat" or "on the sidelines" a lot. They let us do the driving in our lives. They didn't "worry" about us, they didn't hover, they just stepped in when we needed them. They could be "bossy" when I needed that, they could be supportive when I needed that, they could just listen when I needed that, they could tell when they were needed and when they weren't, they could tell how they were needed too. In fact, my mom even encouraged me to skip school for a day if that was what she thought might help me : )

That was a lot of writing to say that my parents were accepting, they stayed connected, they were confident in us as individuals, their lives were not run by rules but rather by relationships.


<<<<<<<Sometimes when I read this list, I feel like if I don't do *everything*
right, my kids will grow up without a good relationship with me. If I don't
let them have total control over their food, bedtimes, chores, things they
learn, whether or not they go someplace with us, how much tv and computer
they watch, etc. then they won't ever learn how to be passionate, motivated
life-long learners. If I ever gave them praise or punishment, they wouldn't
turn out to be great people.>>>>>>>>
Maybe you're trying to look at too many things. Forget those labels (food, bedtime, praise, punishment, etc.) and just focus on your relationship with your kids. If you focus on the relationship then the mistakes that you make won't matter as much and you will learn from your mistakes. It will mean having confidence in your kids and their ability to show you your place.

You need to see your kids as already being great people, and trusting that they will always be great people. Make "excuses" for them and then help them change or accept those "excuses" as they wish. For example, my nickname was eight o'clock when I was little because no matter where I was, I fell asleep before 8, even if it was in a room full of people. I would be IRATE if anyone disturbed me. This was just accepted and set me apart as being special or unique. My brother on the other hand stayed up late and could not get up for school in the morning EVER! It was just accepted and no one tried to fix him or solve his problem. BTW he still goes to bed late and has managed to be VERY successful in his career.

We have also learned to make "excuses" for our parents. For example, when my mom can't find something she freaks out! She knows it, we know it and we all have just accepted that about her. She always apologizes and says, "I just get so frustrated when I know I just had it," or whatever. My dad always freaked out about shoes being by the front door. My best friend still remembers that about my dad. Anyhow, we all have our quirks, but in our family it has helped our relationships to be accepting of those quirks, and talking things out when it effects us too much.
The bottom line is that if something is effecting your relationship negatively then step back and figure out what will help the relationship. Some people see their kids as things to fix or improve or change. I think that my parents saw me as a unique person that they wanted to validate, encourage, trust, understand, enjoy (even the quirks), and appreciate.
Jeanette






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim Musolff

***how do you help without it getting to
the point where they expect it?***

I'm approaching the cleaning-for-my-children thing in the same way that I'm
approaching cooking for my children. They are 6 an 4 right now, so I don't
really expect them to cook for themselves. I'm not worried about teaching
them to cook for themselves, so they can cook for themselves as adults. I
just cook for them, because I'm the Mommy and I like to cook. A lot of
times, I'll invite them to help me cook. But it's always in a fun spirit.
I'm the main cooker of the family. Eventually they will grow up and they'll
learn to cook along the way.

Kim, in CO



On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 4:47 PM, sunflowermom30 <sunflowermom30@...>
wrote:

> i have a question about how this bedroom cleaning idea works...i'm
> really trying to figure some of this out...not at all criticizing,
> just mulling it all over in my head...
>
> i am not of the mindset that my daughter MUST keep her room
> clean...after all, it IS her space, not mine. but it is me she
> constantly comes to to help her find things that she cannot find
> because she leaves them laying anywhere and everywhere...so it does
> still affect me...and we work on the fact that it sure is nice when
> you know just where things are...and of course i realize i am not
> always great at doing this either (putting things back where they
> belong), so its always a work in progress...
>
> and also, i don't mind going in and helping my daughter to get her
> room straightened when its become a cause of stress to her...so much
> so that getting to bed is an issue (because she can't reach the bed!)
> and i know she would be much happier and play for hours at a time in
> her room if only she had floor space to play...and i know that
> telling a child to just go "clean your room" really doesn't help,
> because they don't necessarily know how to do that.
>
> so my question is...if you clean their room for them...and yes i do
> do this for my daughter from time to time and she does appreciate
> it...at what point do you think it could become an issue where the
> child comes to expect that you just do it for them and they don't
> have to and at what point is it still appreciated? i suppose it is an
> individual thing for the child and the parent and no perfect answer
> for this...but it does concern me.
>
> i want my children to be able to feel the pride and joy that comes
> from being able to tackle a big task like a messy room... this isn't
> something i expect them to be able to accomplish at a young age but i
> would like to do what i need to do to help them gain that ability
> eventually. if it means simply modeling it now, then great...i just
> want to make sure i'm not also setting them up to just expect others
> to do for them. there are so many different ideas on that subject, i
> know.
>
> it is something i frequently have on my mind because i had a college
> roommate who's mother cleaned her room for her and did probably
> everything for her growing up and she was the WORST roommate...she
> absolutely refused to help with the cleaning. she was the biggest
> slob i've ever met. and very lazy. (there was a lot more of her life
> that was affected by never having to do anything for herself, but
> that's a whole 'nother story)
>
> so i guess i'm just asking...how do you help without it getting to
> the point where they expect it? how do you still help them learn good
> life skills like how to keep a clean room (which will equate to a
> clean house in adulthood). is modeling alone enough?
>
> tina
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Tyra Olufemi"
> <motherspirit@...> wrote:
> >
> > Peace to you all!
> >
> > I am Tyra, a blast from the past on this group. Just 3 short years
> > ago, I was a newbee on this list. I asked questions, read posts,
> had
> > my toes stepped on by the gurus and struggled like many newbies
> > struggle.
> >
> > To this day I hear words that I have read in this group. I once
> > remember reading about a mother whose daughter's room gets really
> > junky...so junky that the child is too overwhelmed to clean it.
> The
> > mother said that she cleans her daughter's room and that the
> daugther
> > would come to her and thank her for a clean room.
> >
> > I found that fascinating because at the time I was still under the
> > impression that children clean their rooms. I have friends who
> make
> > their children...young children such as 4, 5, and 6 clean their
> rooms
> > by themselves.
> >
> > But because I really believed in unschooling and did not want to
> > mandate my children cleaning their rooms, I decided to clean their
> > room for them when it gets too messy. My children are 4 and 7 years
> > old respectively. My 7 year old son truly is one who leaves
> > his "stuff" lying around the house. We have had many discussion on
> > why he does this when we can't find what he is looking for. I tell
> > him that clutter disturbs me. He tells me that he likes his room
> > messy....so on and so on....
> >
> > WELL, the other day I went into his room while he was sleeping and
> I
> > cleaned it. When he awoke, he had a neat and clean room where he
> > could find whatever he needed. He walked into my room and
> > said, "Thank you for cleaning my room Mama." I about fell out! I
> > immediately thought about the mother I described earlier and this
> > group as a whole.
> >
> > His gratitude for the clean room warms my heart more than my making
> > him clean his room. And what I find is that my modeling cleaning
> my
> > home is what makes my children do the same at times. It makes me
> > feel good and we have way more harmony and peace as a result.
> >
> > So I write this as a thank you to all whose knowledge and wisdom in
> > the unschooling thang has helped me. I write to tell the newbies
> > that the sooner you just go with what is being said to you in this
> > group, the sooner you will be one who says, "Yeah, Radical
> > Unschooling really works." and you will truly mean it.
> >
> > Love to you all
> > Tyra in Tennessee
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 24, 2008, at 6:47 PM, sunflowermom30 wrote:

> so my question is...if you clean their room for them...and yes i do
> do this for my daughter from time to time and she does appreciate
> it...at what point do you think it could become an issue where the
> child comes to expect that you just do it for them and they don't
> have to and at what point is it still appreciated?

It will depend on your attitude. If you go in with the attitude that
it's yours and you don't want help, you'll eventually convince her it
isn't hers. If you do it with the attitude of "Let me help you," or
"Do you mind if I do this for you?" and you do it with the attitude
of wanting to give her a gift because you know it's still
overwhelming for her, then there isn't a reason for her to assume
it's your job. Also invite her to help, but do accept no as an answer.

I think the block to thinking clearly about this is in believing that
just because someone appreciates the effect of effort that they
should then be able to put in the effort to accomplish it. I
appreciate my husband making an omelette and toast for me but I
rarely make the effort to make one for myself. As much as I
appreciate the end result, the effort it takes to get there is a bit
much and I'd rather put that energy to something else.

> i want my children to be able to feel the pride and joy that comes
> from being able to tackle a big task like a messy room...

And moving directly to that path is a good way (though not
guaranteed!) to prevent it.

Think about any value that your husband wants you to have that you
don't particularly care about: weekly cutting out coupons, cooking
gourmet meals, washing the car every week. Think about how he could
instill that value in you.

Would making you do those things help?

What about if he did those things himself because he valued them, and
he did them because he got pleasure in the doing or the results?

Which would be more likely to draw you and which to push you away?

> it is something i frequently have on my mind because i had a college
> roommate who's mother cleaned her room for her and did probably
> everything for her growing up and she was the WORST roommate...she
> absolutely refused to help with the cleaning. she was the biggest
> slob i've ever met. and very lazy. (there was a lot more of her life
> that was affected by never having to do anything for herself, but
> that's a whole 'nother story)

Was she by any chance the youngest or an only or an only girl? I
would bet that her mother wanted to hold onto a baby so prevented her
daughter from doing for herself. The mother needed to feel needed and
didn't want her daughter to show signs that she didn't need her.

I think too often we see adults and near adults with the behavior of
much younger children -- not cleaning up, living in their parents'
basement, temper tantrums when they don't get their way -- and we
assume that childlike behavior is the natural state of humans. We
assume that we aren't all self-centered and dependent and wanting to
only play while we eat candy is because parents trained those traits
out of us.

But humans naturally want to do for themselves. They want to feel
competent. Even children do. But we can interfere with that by
pushing. We interfere with that by preventing them. Kids are humans.
If you think about how pushing you to do something you don't want to
do or someone taking a job away from you because they don't think you
can handle it affects you, the effect is no different on children.
They have the exact same feelings. Probably the biggest difference,
though, is that while it's hard for other adults to crush our
spirits, we can do it to kids. We're stronger, they assume we know
better than they do and we can convince them they're not as good as
they thought.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carron Armstrong

In our family, age has had a lot to do with it. When my kids were younger,
they would get very overwhelmed when we'd straighten their rooms. About a
year ago, by 15 yo son started bringing down the cups and plates and will
empty his trash cans on his own. I don't normally go into his room because
it is very cluttered, and has tons of electronics and wires. There just
isn't much room to move around, and I'm afraid of falling. He started
clearing out his room recently because he said he had just too much stuff.
He has bagged up tons of stuff to give away.

My 11 yo daughter decided that she too wanted to clear some things out and
started doing the same as her brother, but I can tell it is more stressful
for her. She is easily distracted by things she finds hiding under her bed
or in her closet. Even though I offer to help her, she doesn't want me to.
I don't know why, but she's always been a very hands on I-can-do-it-myself
kind of person.

Carron

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:

> ***how do you help without it getting to
> the point where they expect it?***
>
> I'm approaching the cleaning-for-my-children thing in the same way that I'm
> approaching cooking for my children. They are 6 an 4 right now, so I don't
> really expect them to cook for themselves. I'm not worried about teaching
> them to cook for themselves, so they can cook for themselves as adults. I
> just cook for them, because I'm the Mommy and I like to cook. A lot of
> times, I'll invite them to help me cook. But it's always in a fun spirit.
> I'm the main cooker of the family. Eventually they will grow up and they'll
> learn to cook along the way.
>
> Kim, in CO
>
> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 4:47 PM, sunflowermom30 <sunflowermom30@...<sunflowermom30%40yahoo.com>
> >
> wrote:
>
>
> > i have a question about how this bedroom cleaning idea works...i'm
> > really trying to figure some of this out...not at all criticizing,
> > just mulling it all over in my head...
> >
> > i am not of the mindset that my daughter MUST keep her room
> > clean...after all, it IS her space, not mine. but it is me she
> > constantly comes to to help her find things that she cannot find
> > because she leaves them laying anywhere and everywhere...so it does
> > still affect me...and we work on the fact that it sure is nice when
> > you know just where things are...and of course i realize i am not
> > always great at doing this either (putting things back where they
> > belong), so its always a work in progress...
> >
> > and also, i don't mind going in and helping my daughter to get her
> > room straightened when its become a cause of stress to her...so much
> > so that getting to bed is an issue (because she can't reach the bed!)
> > and i know she would be much happier and play for hours at a time in
> > her room if only she had floor space to play...and i know that
> > telling a child to just go "clean your room" really doesn't help,
> > because they don't necessarily know how to do that.
> >
> > so my question is...if you clean their room for them...and yes i do
> > do this for my daughter from time to time and she does appreciate
> > it...at what point do you think it could become an issue where the
> > child comes to expect that you just do it for them and they don't
> > have to and at what point is it still appreciated? i suppose it is an
> > individual thing for the child and the parent and no perfect answer
> > for this...but it does concern me.
> >
> > i want my children to be able to feel the pride and joy that comes
> > from being able to tackle a big task like a messy room... this isn't
> > something i expect them to be able to accomplish at a young age but i
> > would like to do what i need to do to help them gain that ability
> > eventually. if it means simply modeling it now, then great...i just
> > want to make sure i'm not also setting them up to just expect others
> > to do for them. there are so many different ideas on that subject, i
> > know.
> >
> > it is something i frequently have on my mind because i had a college
> > roommate who's mother cleaned her room for her and did probably
> > everything for her growing up and she was the WORST roommate...she
> > absolutely refused to help with the cleaning. she was the biggest
> > slob i've ever met. and very lazy. (there was a lot more of her life
> > that was affected by never having to do anything for herself, but
> > that's a whole 'nother story)
> >
> > so i guess i'm just asking...how do you help without it getting to
> > the point where they expect it? how do you still help them learn good
> > life skills like how to keep a clean room (which will equate to a
> > clean house in adulthood). is modeling alone enough?
> >
> > tina
> >
> > --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> <unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > "Tyra Olufemi"
> > <motherspirit@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Peace to you all!
> > >
> > > I am Tyra, a blast from the past on this group. Just 3 short years
> > > ago, I was a newbee on this list. I asked questions, read posts,
> > had
> > > my toes stepped on by the gurus and struggled like many newbies
> > > struggle.
> > >
> > > To this day I hear words that I have read in this group. I once
> > > remember reading about a mother whose daughter's room gets really
> > > junky...so junky that the child is too overwhelmed to clean it.
> > The
> > > mother said that she cleans her daughter's room and that the
> > daugther
> > > would come to her and thank her for a clean room.
> > >
> > > I found that fascinating because at the time I was still under the
> > > impression that children clean their rooms. I have friends who
> > make
> > > their children...young children such as 4, 5, and 6 clean their
> > rooms
> > > by themselves.
> > >
> > > But because I really believed in unschooling and did not want to
> > > mandate my children cleaning their rooms, I decided to clean their
> > > room for them when it gets too messy. My children are 4 and 7 years
> > > old respectively. My 7 year old son truly is one who leaves
> > > his "stuff" lying around the house. We have had many discussion on
> > > why he does this when we can't find what he is looking for. I tell
> > > him that clutter disturbs me. He tells me that he likes his room
> > > messy....so on and so on....
> > >
> > > WELL, the other day I went into his room while he was sleeping and
> > I
> > > cleaned it. When he awoke, he had a neat and clean room where he
> > > could find whatever he needed. He walked into my room and
> > > said, "Thank you for cleaning my room Mama." I about fell out! I
> > > immediately thought about the mother I described earlier and this
> > > group as a whole.
> > >
> > > His gratitude for the clean room warms my heart more than my making
> > > him clean his room. And what I find is that my modeling cleaning
> > my
> > > home is what makes my children do the same at times. It makes me
> > > feel good and we have way more harmony and peace as a result.
> > >
> > > So I write this as a thank you to all whose knowledge and wisdom in
> > > the unschooling thang has helped me. I write to tell the newbies
> > > that the sooner you just go with what is being said to you in this
> > > group, the sooner you will be one who says, "Yeah, Radical
> > > Unschooling really works." and you will truly mean it.
> > >
> > > Love to you all
> > > Tyra in Tennessee
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***Sometimes when I read this list, I feel like if I don't do *everything*
right, my kids will grow up without a good relationship with me. ***

Your relationship with your kids doesn't depend on this list. <g> It depends on whether you make your relationship with them more important than anything else.

You brought up an example of bed times. If you decide someone else needs to be in bed for their own good or so you can have *me time* but they don't want to be in bed you risk damage to your relationship with that person if you force your will on them. It's not a guarantee they will hate you and that your relationship will be ruined but you *risk* your good relationship when you make what you want more important than what they want or how they feel.

In traditional families this happens to kids a lot. It happens over bedtime, food, TV, video games, friends, language, clothes, hair, bathing... Kids are bombarded.

Is it more important to you to get your way about bedtime (or hair color or number of cookies eaten in one day or whatever) or is it more important to be considerate of your kid?

I don't know how old your kids are but the book, "Parent Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship Approach" by Mira Kirshenbaum and Charles Foster is good. I first read this book some number of years ago after Pam Sorooshian recommended it. She has recommended it frequently. I did not have a teen then and I already had a good relationship with my son and I've bought several copies since for friends, I thought it was that good. I think you'd get a lot out of it.

Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sunflowermom30

wow, i'm really enjoying this thread. y'all are realling making me
think. thank you so much to all of you that have been answering my
questions!

jeanette, i'm really particularly interested in how things worked for
you growing up...its so intriguing to think of being raised in such a
way. in my family we were raised with a liberal use of guilt. to this
day, my parents guilt me about things (although they are finally
getting better about it) and wear me down. for example, i feel their
disapproving stare and get snide comments about my housekeeping on a
fairly regular basis. judging others is a HUGE part of how they do
things and it really has been an eye opener as an adult to realize
how truly horrid it feels to be judged and how i HATE the
judgementalness that i myself have as a direct result of living this
all my life. i fight it daily. and i work very hard (sometimes not
very successfully) to not pass this on to my children.

we were, however, still an incredibly loving family so don't get me
wrong. my parents constantly told us how much they loved us and how
much they were proud of us. to this day we still get that a lot too.
and family time was VERY important in my family growing up. family
meals and family interactions and lots and lots of fun and group
activities (my father is a retired pastor...for most of my childhood
he was a chaplain in the navy and my childhood was FULL of things
like trips to old folks' homes and children's homes, painting
playground equipment and playing games and doing charity work and fun
cultural outings like participating in local celebrations like the
parade of the geisha girls in okinawa and a full-on multi-course
italian HUGE family dinner with our landlords' large italian family
for a holiday, don't remember which one, in sicily...we lived
overseas a lot...i really had an amazing childhood and got to
experience so much!) so i had a truly wonderful childhood. but like
everyone, i'm sure, i want to do better. and i want to try to change
some of the things i don't like about how i was raised. the use of
guilt is one of the things i struggle with. hard to do differently
when you've never experienced differently. so i really soak up things
like what you're saying, jeannette, because it sounds just wonderful
and what i want for my kids...

tell me, in your family, jeannette, how did your parents handle
things like sibling fights and nastiness? i have a HUGE problem with
this between my 2.5yr old and my 7.5yr old and i really am at a loss
as to how to deal with it. my gut reaction is to get mad at my older
for overreacting and lashing out and my younger for doing all he can
to rile up the older. yet, i know this doesn't work and only makes
things worse. there's no reasoning with either of them. the younger
is too young to understand and the older completely closes her ears
the second you start trying to talk to her about an issue. so i know
i need a new approach.

jeanette, i like how you talk about making "excuses" for them...
that's an intriguing thought...because i think i've always been led
to believe that excuses like that lead to a continuation of bad
behavior and worse. i'm intrigued as to how this can work with my
children. i think i sometimes sorta do this anyway, but perhaps not
in the spirit you are talking about. its more a way to aleviate
stress for me. but it is very true that my daughter simply is a very
sensitive child, as i was, and simply has no tolerance for what she
views as irritating behavior by others...particularly her
brother...but is there a way to accept this without condoning her
lashing out so nastily at her little brother? i'm not sure exactly
how to make this work in a positive way. she just gets so nasty with
him and i worry that as he grows up being lashed out at that it will
affect his relationship with her and possibly even his self esteem,
since he simply adores his older sister.

plus the more she lashes out at him, the more he learns to push her
buttons and is now getting to an age (he'll be 3 in july) that he
deliberately does things like throw things at her and hits her just
to get that crazy reaction from her. he likes the reactions he gets
to things. he tends to do what we tell him NOT to do...so we
actually, when we're thinking clearly and not reacting on emotions,
have made a "don't do..." game where we tell him to not do exactly
what we want him to do and amazingly he most of the time will do
exactly that! with a smile on his face. bizarre. LOL. doesn't always
work though and often in the heat of the moment its difficult to play
this game when we are fired up on the angry reactions we have to his
dumping a cup of water or food on the floor for the 3rd time today
and hitting his sister repeatedly with a toy because he likes how she
screams and cries when he does it. *sigh* i'm really at whit's end
with how to get a reconnection with them and and to help them
reconnect with each other!


tina

--- In [email protected], Jeanette Crichton
<jeanettec_99@...> wrote:
>
> Right, I wasn't unschooled, I went to school. But I always knew
that there was something different about my parents. When I look
back on what they did so right (and continue to do) is to think that
we are the best people ever. In fact, my mom says that to me to this
day- "your kids need to know that they are the most wonderful people
in the world!" She never said this to me, but she made me feel this
way. My mom actually sees most everyone this way. She doesn't look
at people and see flaws and shortcomings. She didn't look at my
messy bedroom and think: she'll never learn to keep her room
clean. In fact, when I was in college, one of my 5 jobs was
cleaning houses and I was awesome at it! My parents had such
confidence in us.
> Another thing that stands out is that my parents didn't do things
the way they were "supposed" to be done. They weren't hung up on
the "right" way to raise kids. We rarely ate family dinners
together, but we all hung out together on their bed at least once
each day. My mom was all about connection. She said that the most
difficult thing about us going to school was that she had to try so
hard to reconnect with us every day, but she made it a PRIORITY.
>
> I know this sounds strange, but another thing my parents did was
help me make "excuses" for my mistakes. This was HUGE for me and my
siblings. We never saw our faults, mistakes, shortcomings, etc. as
being permanent. If there was an "excuse" then that meant that I
could change it-if I wanted to, or I could accept something about
myself as being unique. Grades, honors classes, perfect behavior,
manners, responsibility, chores, curfews, etc- were not issues in our
family. No one pushed these things. Relationships, fun, excitement,
laughing, kindness, friendships, community, teamwork, and love were
all valued. The funny thing was that even though my parents didn't
push grades we were all decent to good students. Even though they
didn't push good behavior-none of us ever got in trouble in school or
out of school. Even though my parents didn't push
chores/manners/responsibility most everyone would tell you that I was
the most responsible, mature kid
> they ever met! I used to get up on Saturday mornings at 6:00, get
the newspaper, cut out coupons, make a grocery list, and then my dad
would take me shopping. This was ALL my idea and I was in 4-6th
grade when I did this. In high school I would come home from
practice at 6:30 and go to bed, then I'd get up at 4:00 am to do my
homework and go running. My mom would occasionally get up to read
literature assignments to me because I just never "got it" when I
read it to myself and my dad would get up to run with me. My brother
and sister were responsible in their own ways too. (And we were
all "irresponsible" in our own ways-which was accepted too.)
>
> The final thing that stands out is that my parents were "in the
back seat" or "on the sidelines" a lot. They let us do the driving
in our lives. They didn't "worry" about us, they didn't hover, they
just stepped in when we needed them. They could be "bossy" when I
needed that, they could be supportive when I needed that, they could
just listen when I needed that, they could tell when they were needed
and when they weren't, they could tell how they were needed too. In
fact, my mom even encouraged me to skip school for a day if that was
what she thought might help me : )
>
> That was a lot of writing to say that my parents were accepting,
they stayed connected, they were confident in us as individuals,
their lives were not run by rules but rather by relationships.
>
>
> <<<<<<<Sometimes when I read this list, I feel like if I don't do
*everything*
> right, my kids will grow up without a good relationship with me.
If I don't
> let them have total control over their food, bedtimes, chores,
things they
> learn, whether or not they go someplace with us, how much tv and
computer
> they watch, etc. then they won't ever learn how to be passionate,
motivated
> life-long learners. If I ever gave them praise or punishment, they
wouldn't
> turn out to be great people.>>>>>>>>
> Maybe you're trying to look at too many things. Forget those labels
(food, bedtime, praise, punishment, etc.) and just focus on your
relationship with your kids. If you focus on the relationship then
the mistakes that you make won't matter as much and you will learn
from your mistakes. It will mean having confidence in your kids and
their ability to show you your place.
>
> You need to see your kids as already being great people, and
trusting that they will always be great people. Make "excuses" for
them and then help them change or accept those "excuses" as they
wish. For example, my nickname was eight o'clock when I was little
because no matter where I was, I fell asleep before 8, even if it was
in a room full of people. I would be IRATE if anyone disturbed me.
This was just accepted and set me apart as being special or unique.
My brother on the other hand stayed up late and could not get up for
school in the morning EVER! It was just accepted and no one tried to
fix him or solve his problem. BTW he still goes to bed late and has
managed to be VERY successful in his career.
>
> We have also learned to make "excuses" for our parents. For
example, when my mom can't find something she freaks out! She knows
it, we know it and we all have just accepted that about her. She
always apologizes and says, "I just get so frustrated when I know I
just had it," or whatever. My dad always freaked out about shoes
being by the front door. My best friend still remembers that about
my dad. Anyhow, we all have our quirks, but in our family it has
helped our relationships to be accepting of those quirks, and talking
things out when it effects us too much.
> The bottom line is that if something is effecting your relationship
negatively then step back and figure out what will help the
relationship. Some people see their kids as things to fix or improve
or change. I think that my parents saw me as a unique person that
they wanted to validate, encourage, trust, understand, enjoy (even
the quirks), and appreciate.
> Jeanette
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "sunflowermom30"
<sunflowermom30@...> wrote:
>> so my question is...if you clean their room for them...and yes i
do
> do this for my daughter from time to time and she does appreciate
> it...at what point do you think it could become an issue where the
> child comes to expect that you just do it for them and they don't
> have to and at what point is it still appreciated?

Part of the answer to this question involves stepping away from the
idea that you can "make" someone value cleanliness. Most people (but
not all) find something inherently pleasant in a "clean" space - its
easy to find things, its restful on the eyes, it has a different
aesthetic than "messy". So providing a clean space for family
members is a gift to them, something they value for the way they
feel when a room is clean vs messy. That's not something that people
stop appreciating unless cleaning itself becomes tied to some other
emotional glop - guilt, martydom, shame, that sort of thing. Hard to
appreciate someone who keeps saying "You better appreciate this
darnit!"

One of the marvelous things about living joyfully with our families
is that all our joy and graciousness and kindness fills up the needs
for those in our family members. When those needs are "full" then
the people we love go on spreading the same joy and grace and
kindness - they give it back to us. Why shouldn't they?

So our kids will eventually want to give us gifts of love - the
catch is that what they see as loving won't necessarily be a clean
living room today. It may be a muddy flower today, a plate of
pancakes tomorrow (and a trashed kitchen), clean folded laundry the
next, and an offer to take us out for icecream after that. Will the
living room ever be cleaned by either of my kids? No idea. But I do
see them expressing kindness, being thoughtful and gracious, giving
gifts of love to me and each other regularly.

> i want my children to be able to feel the pride and joy that comes
> from being able to tackle a big task like a messy room...

What about a big task like getting past the next "boss" monster in
their favorite video game? Or a big task like creating an entire
card game - cards, rules, sequence of play, the whole schebang - and
teaching it to another person? Or a big task like saving Ten Whole
Dollars to buy a hamster? Those are some recent things my 6yo has
been able to feel pride and joy in, things she chose to do for
herself.

>if it means simply modeling it now, then great...i just
> want to make sure i'm not also setting them up to just expect
others
> to do for them.

Rather than thinking in terms of modelling cleanliness, think about
modelling appreciation itself. Do you applaud when you kid gets past
that monster? Do you admire the workmanship of those handmade cards?
Are you impressed as hell when the 6yo manages to not spend every
penny every trip to the store so she can eventually buy that
hamster? How many moms and wives feel underappreciated but never
show appreciation for the efforts of other family members? I know a
few irl.

> how do you still help them learn good
> life skills like how to keep a clean room (which will equate to a
> clean house in adulthood). is modeling alone enough?
>

No, they'll still need help, information, advice and appreciation,
too. What they don't need are lessons on "how to be the kind of
grownup mom and dad want you to be".

Beyond that, though, its really not so helpful to think about every
thing your kids do as preparation for some later, more complete
life - adult life. They need help and support and information and
appreciation and love right now, because people need those things.
Even kid-people. Yes, there are "results" of being kind to your
kids, but parenting with an eye toward those results distracts you
from the reality that is your children Right Now. Today my 6yo has
invented a card game and my 14yo is at a friend's house killing
monsters. Hooray! Maybe later I'll clean the living room.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Maisha Khalfani

<You brought up an example of bed times. If you decide someone else needs to
be in bed for their own good or so you can have *me time* but they don't
want to be in bed you risk damage to your relationship with that person if
you force your will on them.>





This is still an issue for us here. Dh wants time alone with me. He feels
that nighttime is adult time. Admittedly, I do get tired towards 9 pm, but
I cannot leave a 3 and 5 year old awake with no supervision. They’ve been
known to take food out of the refrigerator and “cook” with it. So…if I want
to go to bed or if dh wants time alone with me it seems the only option is
to force them to go to bed. I mean, Khalid, Khidar, and Safiya could stay
up until 1 or 2 am easily. Way too late for me.



Now Rohana (18) is back home and she stays up late. And then they can all
stay up with her (Dakari is usually asleep by 10pm). The problem is, Rohana
wants to have computer time and she wants some alone time so having three
siblings awake, asking her questions, arguing over toys, isn’t what she
likes.



And then, dh wants the option of watching tv or using the computer in the
evenings – sometimes watching programs that really aren’t the best for the
kids to see (too scary, too sexual, etc).



So there’s a lot going on here. Not to mention, again, my need to stop
getting water, food, or any other request and needing to recharge my
batteries.



I honestly don’t like enforcing bedtimes. I just haven’t been creative
enough to find an alternative. How can we come up with some solution that
will honor everyone’s needs?



Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

When a big kid hits a little kid on the playground, we call him a bully;
five years later he punches a woman for her wallet and is called a mugger;
later still, when he slugs a fellow worker who insults him, he is called a
troublemaker, but when he becomes a father and hits his tiresome,
disobedient or disrespectful child, we call him a disciplinarian. Why is
this rung on a ladder of interpersonal violence regarded so differently from
the rest? ~ Penelope Leach
“Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.”

~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

Maisha,
I know about wanting adult time, it is hard, especially in large
families, because it seems like you're doing the little child
parenting for such a long time. Most families, in ten years, have
more independent children, and yet, we've had little ones for over
thirteen years and probably have eight more to go before I can just
say "Going to bed, see ya tomorrow". I have all these fun things I
want to do that they don't see the value of, sewing, crochet,
reading, writing, etc.

We've done several things to help our family with this. One is moving
slowly...like adding five minutes of time that I spend on my thing
before I come back and spend an hour with the kids. We also have
planned a night that is our 'date night' so that the kids have agreed
that mom and dad would like to watch a movie that might not be a good
choice for them, and they have a party in their rooms. My oldest has
nominally agreed to be in charge on that one night, so that we can
just sit and snuggle. It doesn't mean that they DON'T come in, but it
is much reduced...and because it's only one night they are excited to
help us have our romantic night ;-)

I'd make sure to cook something for the younger kids if they are
prone to try to cook without, and that way they have their yummy
snack, and try to set up a shelf in the fridge that is just for them.
During the day practice some things that they could make alone and
they can put some on 'their shelf' . Get small water bottles that can
be refilled with whatever and put them on that shelf as well.

I don't know if I'm even being helpful, but I spent all weekend with
a bunch of huge families, and so I'm feeling especially blessed right
now to have only the seven around me.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com



On May 26, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Maisha Khalfani wrote:

> <You brought up an example of bed times. If you decide someone else
> needs to
> be in bed for their own good or so you can have *me time* but they
> don't
> want to be in bed you risk damage to your relationship with that
> person if
> you force your will on them.>
>
> This is still an issue for us here. Dh wants time alone with me. He
> feels
> that nighttime is adult time. Admittedly, I do get tired towards 9
> pm, but
> I cannot leave a 3 and 5 year old awake with no supervision.
> They�ve been
> known to take food out of the refrigerator and �cook� with it. So�
> if I want
> to go to bed or if dh wants time alone with me it seems the only
> option is
> to force them to go to bed. I mean, Khalid, Khidar, and Safiya
> could stay
> up until 1 or 2 am easily. Way too late for me.
>
> Now Rohana (18) is back home and she stays up late. And then they
> can all
> stay up with her (Dakari is usually asleep by 10pm). The problem
> is, Rohana
> wants to have computer time and she wants some alone time so having
> three
> siblings awake, asking her questions, arguing over toys, isn�t what
> she
> likes.
>
> And then, dh wants the option of watching tv or using the computer
> in the
> evenings � sometimes watching programs that really aren�t the best
> for the
> kids to see (too scary, too sexual, etc).
>
> So there�s a lot going on here. Not to mention, again, my need to stop
> getting water, food, or any other request and needing to recharge my
> batteries.
>
> I honestly don�t like enforcing bedtimes. I just haven�t been creative
> enough to find an alternative. How can we come up with some
> solution that
> will honor everyone�s needs?
>
> Namast�
> be at peace,
> Maisha
> <http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family
> Adventures
>
> When a big kid hits a little kid on the playground, we call him a
> bully;
> five years later he punches a woman for her wallet and is called a
> mugger;
> later still, when he slugs a fellow worker who insults him, he is
> called a
> troublemaker, but when he becomes a father and hits his tiresome,
> disobedient or disrespectful child, we call him a disciplinarian.
> Why is
> this rung on a ladder of interpersonal violence regarded so
> differently from
> the rest? ~ Penelope Leach
> �Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender,
> thoughtful and
> affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service.
> Love is
> more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a
> present.�
>
> ~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***This is still an issue for us here. Dh wants time alone with me. He feels
that nighttime is adult time. Admittedly, I do get tired towards 9 pm, but
I cannot leave a 3 and 5 year old awake with no supervision. ***

If you have a sweet bedtime routine for your little kids and it's working ok without much stress then go easy on yourself.<g> A nice bedtime routine that kids are happy with can turn into whatever it naturally will as your little kids get older. As they get older they'll be better able to be up by themselves, or come get you if they want something, and you'll all adjust.

When Dylan was little and wanted to be up later I'd go to bed with dh for awhile and then get up again. I'd doze on the sofa while Dylan played or watched TV but I was right there if he wanted me. Maybe you could go to bed for a while and then get up again when your dh falls asleep and then Rohana could have her time while you were with kids. Would you have the stamina for that? <g> Would your little ones let you doze a bit?

It's not perfect but if you can get more physical exercise during the day (and I realize how insane that must sound to you when you spend every day with a big family of busy kids<g>) it will help you have more energy. Can you squeeze in fifteen minutes of yoga or stretching or go jog around the block before your kids get up? Over time it will help. Also, if you're depressed you'll feel tired more and want to sleep more and if that's a possibility the exercise can help with some emotional stuff too.

***And then, dh wants the option of watching TV or using the computer in the
evenings - sometimes watching programs that really aren't the best for the
kids to see (too scary, too sexual, etc).***

Could you delight the kids away from the TV into another room for a game or story? (I so wish I could take credit for that term "delight them away" but I can't. I don't remember now who first used it but it's wonderful.) We just got a TV from the Goodwill for thirteen dollars after ours sputtered out and it works perfectly...(it is not stylish, it's huge and weighs five hundred pounds) could you get another TV so dh could watch his programs in your room? Would he be willing to forego the adult themed stuff for a couple years if the kids are sensitive to it now? Do you know it would bother the kids or does it just feel wrong to you to have it on with them around? Could you talk up how much fun it would be to watch something silly with the kids, instead?

***Not to mention, again, my need to stop
getting water, food, or any other request and needing to recharge my
batteries.***

Could you make a tray of food, some little sandwich squares, grapes, crackers, a favorite thing or two, with some little Dixie cups of juice and water and put it where the kids can get it? Even if it gave you fifteen minutes to stand under a hot shower it might help to revive you.

*** How can we come up with some solution that
will honor everyone's needs?***

When you look at it objectively, when you think about your bedtime routine with your littlest kids do your kids seem unhappy or are they ok with it? If things are going smoothly for now let it be. Your kids are always growing and changing and learning and in a year or two these things will be changed too.

I could afford, physically and emotionally, because I had one child, and because I don't need much sleep, to put my needs last or to put some of them away for another day in order to better give my growing and changing kid what he needed. I had good conditions for it, though. My dh didn't complain (much<g>) I didn't have to work outside the home and I had only one child.

Deb Lewis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beth Fleming

 Unschooling Mom to Frances (10), Will (8), Catherine (3), and Grace (14 months)
www.6uvus.blogspot.com



----- Original Message ----
From: Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:12:01 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] bedtime revisited


"This is still an issue for us here. Dh wants time alone with me. He feels
that nighttime is adult time. Admittedly, I do get tired towards 9 pm, but
I cannot leave a 3 and 5 year old awake with no supervision."
Hi Maisha,
It seems I have kids of similar ages to yours...and as I thought about it, I realized that it's been my husband and I that have changed our nightime "routine" to fit that of the kids....I'm not sure if any of this might be helpful to you, but, it might help to reframe what it could look like. 
DH here gets tired around 8:30 or 9 and usually makes a general announcement that he's going to bed soon.  DS 9 LOVES to read and snuggle with Dad, as does DD4 so he'll head up with the two of them (if DD4 is not already asleep after going all day without a nap...sometimes she hits the hay at about 7:30).  DD2 and I are at this point usually snuggling and she's nursing in her room. After I get DD2 down and the other three are asleep, I join DD11 downstairs.  She's usually at the computer or reading or waiting for me to watch a special program with her.  This is "her" time with me.  We usually spend an hour or so talking or watching or cleaning up until she is ready to sleep.  Then I usually stay up a bit later on the computer or just having a cup of tea. 
What's changed for us since unschooling...."my attitude"!  I used to feel like I was hurrying up to get them to bed so "I" could do something!!  Now, I realize that usually that something is something we could have done together. 
Also, DH gets up at about 5....has his own time and a few cups of joe to himself.  He also has some time to read the sports or NY Times on the computer.  Believe it or not, our couple time has gotten better....I usually wake him up when I come into bed.  I'm less stressed because I haven't been hurrying everybody into doing what I want them to do, so the mood is usually generally better  ;)  So, LATE night is our alone time together.  I'm naturally a night owl, so staying up late suits me and give me some much needed time with my oldest DD, and then I usually get woken up in the morning anyway by DD2 (my natural alarm clock!) 
I have to admit, we're still working on the "connecting and conversation" part od DH and my relationship.  There's usually little time for us (excpet for when we're in the car together, which I highly recommend),.....but we've found ourselves of late e-mailing each other quite a bit.  ...sort of takes me back to the days of our dating and writing letters back and forth.  ;)
I hope some of this might help give you some ideas....
Best of luck!
Peace,
Beth in MA









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "sunflowermom30"
<sunflowermom30@...> wrote:
>
> i have a question about how this bedroom cleaning idea works...i'm
> really trying to figure some of this out...not at all criticizing,
> just mulling it all over in my head...

Hey guys,

hope nobody minds me harking back to the messy room thing - just
catching up on a week of goodies on here <g>.

I have usually helped my kids clean up their rooms from an early age
and it has worked pretty well.

Now they are a little older (12 and 8), I still feel quite happy to
help out. These days, I continue to be pretty relaxed about how they
keep things in their rooms, being that they have their own room each
and I figure it is good practice of having their own place and also
being able to have their own space now. ( I have struggled more when
they have shared a room at times, as one has had a different need for
order at a different time to the other, lol).

I find they are willing to help tidy the shared lving areas (I am
really okay with them saying no and I really love what Rosenberg says
in NVC parenting that children will often be willing to help if they
know they are truly free to say no and that it is a request for help,
not a demand).

When I am doing any tidying of general living areas myself, I
carefully place any of their personal items in a corner of their
room, letting them know I have done so and taking extra care with
fragile things not to put it somewhere that they might not notice it
and step on it, etc. Sometimes they offer to take it themselves if
they see me gathering things up.

If either of us gets overwhelmed with the level of mess in their
bedroom, we will usually make some time ( I schedule big blocks of
time, so we can include dealing with feelings of frustration or extra
sorting of clothes, plus just being able to enjoy the time together
chatting). I don't even bother to 'go there' in the middle of a busy
time when we are in and out, or busy on other projects (including
R&R) at home. I figure that the last thing any of us need after a
busy few days is to have yelling or stress about those 'filthy kids
rooms'. I mean, if I haven't had time to get around to things in the
house, then they probably haven't either and I wouldn't like it if
the first quiet moment I got, my dh came and yelled about my
dreadfully messy room, lol.

Last night, I told dd that I was planning an early morning attack on
her room and she was welcome to join in, but that it was really
bugging me. She said she would be happy to help, but I would have
been okay to go it alone, because I felt quite motivated to do it and
I wanted the satisfaction of seeing things in order in there.

Tonight, dd has a lovely clean room, which she helped with, I have a
massive pile of dirty laundry <g> and we had a lovely time sorting
clothes that she was finished with and how great she felt to be
passing them on to a good friend who is younger than her.

I was even inspired to clean the parent's bedroom!

I felt tremendously free to act on a task I was motivated to do, dd
didn't feel blamed about having a messy room, or coerced into
cleaning it. Ds has requested a similar cleaning angel to visit and
is happy to help also.

There have been times that they have both been quite happy to dwell
in a very untidy room where they can't find a thing and we have been
quite okay. Sometimes they have refused help from me and cleaned
themselves. The time has always come around when the room gets tidy
again.

I have higher standards for the shared living areas and this is
usually the focus of day to day tidying. Sometimes I get utterly
overwhelmed. Sometimes I am a cleaning demon. But I am always working
on our relationships and I really believe that this is the most
important thing. I think there can be a fear that if we 'let things
go', that chaos will reign, or that our children will suffer as
adults, unless they have been taught to get the 'boring stuff/tasks
out of the way first and then do the fun stuff'. I am hoping not to
transmit such a dichotomy between work and play.

I think that flexibility is so important in living with other human
beings. I don't disagree with routines, or whatever - as long as they
work to fulfill everyone's needs at the time.

Thanks again everyone for the immense amount of wisdom you all share -
hope it's catching <g>,

Cathy.
>
> i am not of the mindset that my daughter MUST keep her room
> clean...after all, it IS her space, not mine. but it is me she
> constantly comes to to help her find things that she cannot find
> because she leaves them laying anywhere and everywhere...so it does
> still affect me...and we work on the fact that it sure is nice when
> you know just where things are...and of course i realize i am not
> always great at doing this either (putting things back where they
> belong), so its always a work in progress...
>
> and also, i don't mind going in and helping my daughter to get her
> room straightened when its become a cause of stress to her...so
much
> so that getting to bed is an issue (because she can't reach the
bed!)
> and i know she would be much happier and play for hours at a time
in
> her room if only she had floor space to play...and i know that
> telling a child to just go "clean your room" really doesn't help,
> because they don't necessarily know how to do that.
>
> so my question is...if you clean their room for them...and yes i do
> do this for my daughter from time to time and she does appreciate
> it...at what point do you think it could become an issue where the
> child comes to expect that you just do it for them and they don't
> have to and at what point is it still appreciated? i suppose it is
an
> individual thing for the child and the parent and no perfect answer
> for this...but it does concern me.
>
> i want my children to be able to feel the pride and joy that comes
> from being able to tackle a big task like a messy room... this
isn't
> something i expect them to be able to accomplish at a young age but
i
> would like to do what i need to do to help them gain that ability
> eventually. if it means simply modeling it now, then great...i just
> want to make sure i'm not also setting them up to just expect
others
> to do for them. there are so many different ideas on that subject,
i
> know.
>
> it is something i frequently have on my mind because i had a
college
> roommate who's mother cleaned her room for her and did probably
> everything for her growing up and she was the WORST roommate...she
> absolutely refused to help with the cleaning. she was the biggest
> slob i've ever met. and very lazy. (there was a lot more of her
life
> that was affected by never having to do anything for herself, but
> that's a whole 'nother story)
>
> so i guess i'm just asking...how do you help without it getting to
> the point where they expect it? how do you still help them learn
good
> life skills like how to keep a clean room (which will equate to a
> clean house in adulthood). is modeling alone enough?
>
> tina
>
> --- In [email protected], "Tyra Olufemi"
> <motherspirit@> wrote:
> >
> > Peace to you all!
> >
> > I am Tyra, a blast from the past on this group. Just 3 short
years
> > ago, I was a newbee on this list. I asked questions, read posts,
> had
> > my toes stepped on by the gurus and struggled like many newbies
> > struggle.
> >
> > To this day I hear words that I have read in this group. I once
> > remember reading about a mother whose daughter's room gets really
> > junky...so junky that the child is too overwhelmed to clean it.
> The
> > mother said that she cleans her daughter's room and that the
> daugther
> > would come to her and thank her for a clean room.
> >
> > I found that fascinating because at the time I was still under
the
> > impression that children clean their rooms. I have friends who
> make
> > their children...young children such as 4, 5, and 6 clean their
> rooms
> > by themselves.
> >
> > But because I really believed in unschooling and did not want to
> > mandate my children cleaning their rooms, I decided to clean
their
> > room for them when it gets too messy. My children are 4 and 7
years
> > old respectively. My 7 year old son truly is one who leaves
> > his "stuff" lying around the house. We have had many discussion
on
> > why he does this when we can't find what he is looking for. I
tell
> > him that clutter disturbs me. He tells me that he likes his room
> > messy....so on and so on....
> >
> > WELL, the other day I went into his room while he was sleeping
and
> I
> > cleaned it. When he awoke, he had a neat and clean room where he
> > could find whatever he needed. He walked into my room and
> > said, "Thank you for cleaning my room Mama." I about fell out!
I
> > immediately thought about the mother I described earlier and this
> > group as a whole.
> >
> > His gratitude for the clean room warms my heart more than my
making
> > him clean his room. And what I find is that my modeling cleaning
> my
> > home is what makes my children do the same at times. It makes me
> > feel good and we have way more harmony and peace as a result.
> >
> > So I write this as a thank you to all whose knowledge and wisdom
in
> > the unschooling thang has helped me. I write to tell the newbies
> > that the sooner you just go with what is being said to you in
this
> > group, the sooner you will be one who says, "Yeah, Radical
> > Unschooling really works." and you will truly mean it.
> >
> > Love to you all
> > Tyra in Tennessee
> >
>

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], Jeanette Crichton
<jeanettec_99@...> wrote:



Hey Jeanette,

thank you SO much for sharing your thoughts on this. It put words to
my experience of aspects of my parents' way of relating to me as a
child. Even though in many ways, my childhood was traumatic (not my
parents),unusual and my parents related in many dysfunctional ways,
there was always a sense that if the chips were down, they would be
there for me. They did and still do, think I'm pretty alright and I
know (cos I've snuck up on these conversations) that they boast about
me and my latest doings to anyone who will listen. How I reacted to
my childhood in ways of self-preservation and a stubborn self-
reliance is another story <g>. But you have pinpointed that there can
be a very strong sense in a child that regardless of all sorts of
other things, they do sense when their parent is doing their best and
really loves them. Of course, now I am a parent, I have pretty high
standards for myself and I am not excusing intentional neglect of
one's parenting duty.

As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing things,
not listening, etc. - actually as an adult too - but my parents just
saw that as part of me. They got frustrated with me, lectured me
about it and so on, but they would equally help me to find stuff or
help me replace lost things. In the present, my kids see me 'lose it'
over the same stuff - usually practical stuff when I am off in the
clouds - and they accept me in it, help me without judging and offer
the ultimate soother - a cup of tea. Then we carry on. The same thing
happens when they are having a hairy moment. It can all end in tears,
but we all know it's reedeemable and we can try again.

As a high school student, I gravitated towards at least one very
organised person in my year - the one who always had the timetable,
colour-coded, knew how to read it and the school map, wore a watch
and had a diary with all the assignment due dates in it. Some would
say that this was because my parents hadn't taught me how to be
organised or responsible. The fact is, I was working part-time before
I was ten, owned and cared for my own horse from the age of twelve,
performed well academically, blah blah. I just didn't do school
timetables. I helped lots of students with schoolwork, was a loyal
friend and knew what field I wanted to work in after school. I had
good compensatory mechanisms in place to help MYSELF be more
organised and I have spent my life admiring and learning from people
more orgainsed than me. I really didn't like school as a system and
although I often handed in work and sat exams in high school, I
avoided being there and spent a lot of time doing what I saw as 'real
things'. My parents DID despair of me for a while on this count.

These days, my family and friends think that I am pretty responsible
(well, they trust me an awful lot with their kids and other stuff if
not, lol) and good to be with. they also seem to think it's okay that
I often run a bit late, forget the same details they have told me
over and over and often require emergency feeding and cups of tea. I
am constructive and efficient in my many hours of volunteer work.

Once I got out of school,I got many good tertiary qualifications and
worked in lots of different jobs, despite being refused a copy of my
Year 10 Certificate (despite many top of the form marks) due to
truancy. My teachers didn't hold out much hope of me sticking at
anything by the time I left <g> If I wasn't at home with the most
important people in my life, I could return to a well-paid job in
counselling, herbal medicine, animal husbandry, etc. in pretty short
order.

If you haven't died of boredom reading my CV, my point is - I have
taken a very unorthodox route to maturity, but though the journey was
my own, I haven't become a dysfunctional adult, simply because I
wasn't MADE to conform. I have LEARNT myself what is worth standing
for and because I have arrived there myself, I know what my
convictions mean.

So thank you again, Jeanette, for helping me to tap into this little
realisation of mine, by sharing your experiences,

Cathy.
>
>
>
>
>
> <<<<I'm so glad you wrote this. It really struck a chord with my
latest
>
> unschooling struggle. It wasn't the fact that you
were "unschooled" that
> allowed you to have a close relationship with your parents. What
was it?
> Their attitude? Their respect for you? How they weren't
judgmental and you
> could feel like you could talk to them about anything? The way
they
> communicated with you?>>>>>>
> Right, I wasn't unschooled, I went to school. But I always knew
that there was something different about my parents. When I look
back on what they did so right (and continue to do) is to think that
we are the best people ever. In fact, my mom says that to me to this
day- "your kids need to know that they are the most wonderful people
in the world!" She never said this to me, but she made me feel this
way. My mom actually sees most everyone this way. She doesn't look
at people and see flaws and shortcomings. She didn't look at my
messy bedroom and think: she'll never learn to keep her room
clean. In fact, when I was in college, one of my 5 jobs was
cleaning houses and I was awesome at it! My parents had such
confidence in us.
> Another thing that stands out is that my parents didn't do things
the way they were "supposed" to be done. They weren't hung up on
the "right" way to raise kids. We rarely ate family dinners
together, but we all hung out together on their bed at least once
each day. My mom was all about connection. She said that the most
difficult thing about us going to school was that she had to try so
hard to reconnect with us every day, but she made it a PRIORITY.
>
> I know this sounds strange, but another thing my parents did was
help me make "excuses" for my mistakes. This was HUGE for me and my
siblings. We never saw our faults, mistakes, shortcomings, etc. as
being permanent. If there was an "excuse" then that meant that I
could change it-if I wanted to, or I could accept something about
myself as being unique. Grades, honors classes, perfect behavior,
manners, responsibility, chores, curfews, etc- were not issues in our
family. No one pushed these things. Relationships, fun, excitement,
laughing, kindness, friendships, community, teamwork, and love were
all valued. The funny thing was that even though my parents didn't
push grades we were all decent to good students. Even though they
didn't push good behavior-none of us ever got in trouble in school or
out of school. Even though my parents didn't push
chores/manners/responsibility most everyone would tell you that I was
the most responsible, mature kid
> they ever met! I used to get up on Saturday mornings at 6:00, get
the newspaper, cut out coupons, make a grocery list, and then my dad
would take me shopping. This was ALL my idea and I was in 4-6th
grade when I did this. In high school I would come home from
practice at 6:30 and go to bed, then I'd get up at 4:00 am to do my
homework and go running. My mom would occasionally get up to read
literature assignments to me because I just never "got it" when I
read it to myself and my dad would get up to run with me. My brother
and sister were responsible in their own ways too. (And we were
all "irresponsible" in our own ways-which was accepted too.)
>
> The final thing that stands out is that my parents were "in the
back seat" or "on the sidelines" a lot. They let us do the driving
in our lives. They didn't "worry" about us, they didn't hover, they
just stepped in when we needed them. They could be "bossy" when I
needed that, they could be supportive when I needed that, they could
just listen when I needed that, they could tell when they were needed
and when they weren't, they could tell how they were needed too. In
fact, my mom even encouraged me to skip school for a day if that was
what she thought might help me : )
>
> That was a lot of writing to say that my parents were accepting,
they stayed connected, they were confident in us as individuals,
their lives were not run by rules but rather by relationships.
>
>
> <<<<<<<Sometimes when I read this list, I feel like if I don't do
*everything*
> right, my kids will grow up without a good relationship with me.
If I don't
> let them have total control over their food, bedtimes, chores,
things they
> learn, whether or not they go someplace with us, how much tv and
computer
> they watch, etc. then they won't ever learn how to be passionate,
motivated
> life-long learners. If I ever gave them praise or punishment, they
wouldn't
> turn out to be great people.>>>>>>>>
> Maybe you're trying to look at too many things. Forget those labels
(food, bedtime, praise, punishment, etc.) and just focus on your
relationship with your kids. If you focus on the relationship then
the mistakes that you make won't matter as much and you will learn
from your mistakes. It will mean having confidence in your kids and
their ability to show you your place.
>
> You need to see your kids as already being great people, and
trusting that they will always be great people. Make "excuses" for
them and then help them change or accept those "excuses" as they
wish. For example, my nickname was eight o'clock when I was little
because no matter where I was, I fell asleep before 8, even if it was
in a room full of people. I would be IRATE if anyone disturbed me.
This was just accepted and set me apart as being special or unique.
My brother on the other hand stayed up late and could not get up for
school in the morning EVER! It was just accepted and no one tried to
fix him or solve his problem. BTW he still goes to bed late and has
managed to be VERY successful in his career.
>
> We have also learned to make "excuses" for our parents. For
example, when my mom can't find something she freaks out! She knows
it, we know it and we all have just accepted that about her. She
always apologizes and says, "I just get so frustrated when I know I
just had it," or whatever. My dad always freaked out about shoes
being by the front door. My best friend still remembers that about
my dad. Anyhow, we all have our quirks, but in our family it has
helped our relationships to be accepting of those quirks, and talking
things out when it effects us too much.
> The bottom line is that if something is effecting your relationship
negatively then step back and figure out what will help the
relationship. Some people see their kids as things to fix or improve
or change. I think that my parents saw me as a unique person that
they wanted to validate, encourage, trust, understand, enjoy (even
the quirks), and appreciate.
> Jeanette
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Judy R

this give me hops for my one girl who is also often "away with the fairies" - what a wonderful image!
----- Original Message -----
From: elendil722003
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:55 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What the Unschooling Gurus teach is so true!



As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing things,
not listening, etc. -
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~
As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing things,
not listening, etc. -~~

Sounds like my life story!:)
I wish that every person could be completely honored and embraced for
exactly who-they-are this moment. The world would be a better place
for it. All those traits that parents get frustrated about are often
the child's strengths and in the right environment will blossom.

I still lose things and don't hear people....but now I help Sierra
build fairy villages instead of being "practical" and putting fairies
behind me. Nah...being "away with the fairies" is a great way to live.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Judy R

it helps when the person who is still away with the fairies recognizes it :-) and can understand that others might find it frustrating or confusing.

I know a 14-year-old boy who is (supposedly) high-functioning autistic. My mouth literally dropped open when he told me, because you just wouldn't know it. And he got my surprise and said that many people don't realize it because he compensates - he understands the way social situations work enough that even though he has to consciously *think* about social behaviour, he can do that.

Slightly off topic, sorry, BUT, my ex, OTOH, would never see or admit that he loses things, is highly reactive to the girls, is highly compulsive, has a low sex drive, and so on - because he is unaware of these traits in himself, he doesn't get that he pushes people away from him with his behaviours - and although i *understand* where those behavious come from and was able to honour him for who he was for a long time, once we had children, it just didn't work anymore - he was totally unable to see that his uncontolled fits of anger and frustration were harmful to the girls - and even though we had many talks about it, he *never* in 23 years changed any of his behaviours -

so I am not a saint! Sometimes I feel a bit guilty that I could no longer live with him, but also it helps if there is a little bit of a two-way street - but he is actually happier now that we no longer live with him -- he is free to just do his own things and can tune into the girls on occaision - he just couldn't handle the daily demands of having children, and I couldn't handle the daily demands of not having a partner - but this seems to work out fine once we all got over our resentments, and I think he now a good relationship with the girls that they can all live with. And he does things with the girls that I don't do, like taking them on long trips to England or BC or wherever - that does make up for a lot!

Anyway, you are blessed to be surrounded by loved ones and that you guys have such a good give and take! I do sometimes wish that I could have figured a way to be more tolerant of him, to have more of a sense of humour around it or whatever, but I just didn't have it in me...
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What the Unschooling Gurus teach is so true!


~~
As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing things,
not listening, etc. -~~

Sounds like my life story!:)
I wish that every person could be completely honored and embraced for
exactly who-they-are this moment. The world would be a better place
for it. All those traits that parents get frustrated about are often
the child's strengths and in the right environment will blossom.

I still lose things and don't hear people....but now I help Sierra
build fairy villages instead of being "practical" and putting fairies
behind me. Nah...being "away with the fairies" is a great way to live.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thehomeopathicway

As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing things,
> not listening, etc. -~~
>
> Sounds like my life story!:)
> I wish that every person could be completely honored and embraced for
> exactly who-they-are this moment. The world would be a better place
> for it. All those traits that parents get frustrated about are often
> the child's strengths and in the right environment will blossom.


Thank you for saying this. So simple and so true... If we could
just 'get' that, it would be all we really ever needed to learn in this
life.

For me, if I am honest with myself, what bugs me about my kids is what
bugs me about me. Not easy to be face to face with your own demons.
But I guess that's their job.

Dianna
thehomeopathicway.blogspot.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...>


I honestly don’t like enforcing bedtimes. I just haven’t been creative
enough to find an alternative. How can we come up with some solution
that
will honor everyone’s needs?

-=-=-=-=-=-

Have you asked the kids for help?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:


> I wish that every person could be completely honored and embraced
for
> exactly who-they-are this moment. The world would be a better place
> for it. All those traits that parents get frustrated about are often
> the child's strengths and in the right environment will blossom.


**** Ditto. I think that a big part of that learning how to embrace
people as who they are in the moment has to take things at face
value. I think it is hard to parent in the now if there is a constant
soundtrack of analysis in my head - I have found it really helpful to
honour my own analysis but find a better time (like these groups) to
conduct it. If I can experience my kids right now, not bringing stuff
from the past or future about their personalities, etc. I can really
be present for them.

I don't mean that I ignore or shut off from the big picture - that's
part of knowing somebody and it would be counter-productive to see my
child seperate to their experiences and personality, but to not have
those things like "Oh, here we go again, they ALWAYS do that when -
fill the blank in with whatever I would be tempted to blame
their 'undesirable' behaviour on.

Besides, the world of fairies has much wisdom to be brought back for
the 'real world' <g>

Cheers,

Cathy.

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> it helps when the person who is still away with the fairies
recognizes it :-) and can understand that others might find it
frustrating or confusing.

Hey Judy,

I really appreciate how you have shared what it can feel like to live
with somebody who is perhaps not aware of their impact on others.

I certainly don't agree with someone NOT taking responsibility for
themselves and how they effect others. I often wonder if I was more
tolerant in my marriage, more able to explain my point of view
patiently, more understanding of how stress effects my dh and why he
seems to take that stress out on us, if our home would be different.
I guess we all have such a unique situation and I agree that
sometimes the best thing to do for all concerned is to walk away. I
suspect that this kind of decision is rarely black and white.

I have so much respect for you - having gone through such difficult
decisions and times sounds really tough.

And I agree with you that others DO find it frustrating at times when
I am 'not with it'. I accept this as real frustration. I guess the
key for me has been to spend enough time meeting my own needs, in
ways that help me to honour my philosophical, dreamer aspects in ways
that fit in with my family. Certainly, before I learnt to do this, I
would shove down this need and then get angry at other people
for "not giving me my space". This was before I learnt that it is
illogical to make others responsible for me not finding workable ways
to have my needs met.

Thanks for sharing and I hope that I didn't offend you by
espousing 'being off with the fairies' - I certainly appreciate how
this could be a negative thing to experience in some situations.

Hugs,

Cathy.



>
> I know a 14-year-old boy who is (supposedly) high-functioning
autistic. My mouth literally dropped open when he told me, because
you just wouldn't know it. And he got my surprise and said that many
people don't realize it because he compensates - he understands the
way social situations work enough that even though he has to
consciously *think* about social behaviour, he can do that.
>
> Slightly off topic, sorry, BUT, my ex, OTOH, would never see or
admit that he loses things, is highly reactive to the girls, is
highly compulsive, has a low sex drive, and so on - because he is
unaware of these traits in himself, he doesn't get that he pushes
people away from him with his behaviours - and although i
*understand* where those behavious come from and was able to honour
him for who he was for a long time, once we had children, it just
didn't work anymore - he was totally unable to see that his
uncontolled fits of anger and frustration were harmful to the girls -
and even though we had many talks about it, he *never* in 23 years
changed any of his behaviours -
>
> so I am not a saint! Sometimes I feel a bit guilty that I could
no longer live with him, but also it helps if there is a little bit
of a two-way street - but he is actually happier now that we no
longer live with him -- he is free to just do his own things and can
tune into the girls on occaision - he just couldn't handle the daily
demands of having children, and I couldn't handle the daily demands
of not having a partner - but this seems to work out fine once we all
got over our resentments, and I think he now a good relationship with
the girls that they can all live with. And he does things with the
girls that I don't do, like taking them on long trips to England or
BC or wherever - that does make up for a lot!
>
> Anyway, you are blessed to be surrounded by loved ones and that you
guys have such a good give and take! I do sometimes wish that I
could have figured a way to be more tolerant of him, to have more of
a sense of humour around it or whatever, but I just didn't have it in
me...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ren Allen
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:37 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What the Unschooling Gurus teach
is so true!
>
>
> ~~
> As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing
things,
> not listening, etc. -~~
>
> Sounds like my life story!:)
> I wish that every person could be completely honored and embraced
for
> exactly who-they-are this moment. The world would be a better
place
> for it. All those traits that parents get frustrated about are
often
> the child's strengths and in the right environment will blossom.
>
> I still lose things and don't hear people....but now I help Sierra
> build fairy villages instead of being "practical" and putting
fairies
> behind me. Nah...being "away with the fairies" is a great way to
live.:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "Judy R" <jroberts@...>
wrote:
>
> it helps when the person who is still away with the fairies
recognizes it :-) and can understand that others might find it
frustrating or confusing.

Hey Judy,

I really appreciate how you have shared what it can feel like to live
with somebody who is perhaps not aware of their impact on others.

I certainly don't agree with someone NOT taking responsibility for
themselves and how they effect others. I often wonder if I was more
tolerant in my marriage, more able to explain my point of view
patiently, more understanding of how stress effects my dh and why he
seems to take that stress out on us, if our home would be different.
I guess we all have such a unique situation and I agree that
sometimes the best thing to do for all concerned is to walk away. I
suspect that this kind of decision is rarely black and white.

I have so much respect for you - having gone through such difficult
decisions and times sounds really tough.

And I agree with you that others DO find it frustrating at times when
I am 'not with it'. I accept this as real frustration. I guess the
key for me has been to spend enough time meeting my own needs, in
ways that help me to honour my philosophical, dreamer aspects in ways
that fit in with my family. Certainly, before I learnt to do this, I
would shove down this need and then get angry at other people
for "not giving me my space". This was before I learnt that it is
illogical to make others responsible for me not finding workable ways
to have my needs met.

Thanks for sharing and I hope that I didn't offend you by
espousing 'being off with the fairies' - I certainly appreciate how
this could be a negative thing to experience in some situations.

Hugs,

Cathy.



>
> I know a 14-year-old boy who is (supposedly) high-functioning
autistic. My mouth literally dropped open when he told me, because
you just wouldn't know it. And he got my surprise and said that many
people don't realize it because he compensates - he understands the
way social situations work enough that even though he has to
consciously *think* about social behaviour, he can do that.
>
> Slightly off topic, sorry, BUT, my ex, OTOH, would never see or
admit that he loses things, is highly reactive to the girls, is
highly compulsive, has a low sex drive, and so on - because he is
unaware of these traits in himself, he doesn't get that he pushes
people away from him with his behaviours - and although i
*understand* where those behavious come from and was able to honour
him for who he was for a long time, once we had children, it just
didn't work anymore - he was totally unable to see that his
uncontolled fits of anger and frustration were harmful to the girls -
and even though we had many talks about it, he *never* in 23 years
changed any of his behaviours -
>
> so I am not a saint! Sometimes I feel a bit guilty that I could
no longer live with him, but also it helps if there is a little bit
of a two-way street - but he is actually happier now that we no
longer live with him -- he is free to just do his own things and can
tune into the girls on occaision - he just couldn't handle the daily
demands of having children, and I couldn't handle the daily demands
of not having a partner - but this seems to work out fine once we all
got over our resentments, and I think he now a good relationship with
the girls that they can all live with. And he does things with the
girls that I don't do, like taking them on long trips to England or
BC or wherever - that does make up for a lot!
>
> Anyway, you are blessed to be surrounded by loved ones and that you
guys have such a good give and take! I do sometimes wish that I
could have figured a way to be more tolerant of him, to have more of
a sense of humour around it or whatever, but I just didn't have it in
me...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ren Allen
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:37 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: What the Unschooling Gurus teach
is so true!
>
>
> ~~
> As a child, I was away with the fairies. I was always losing
things,
> not listening, etc. -~~
>
> Sounds like my life story!:)
> I wish that every person could be completely honored and embraced
for
> exactly who-they-are this moment. The world would be a better
place
> for it. All those traits that parents get frustrated about are
often
> the child's strengths and in the right environment will blossom.
>
> I still lose things and don't hear people....but now I help Sierra
> build fairy villages instead of being "practical" and putting
fairies
> behind me. Nah...being "away with the fairies" is a great way to
live.:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "thehomeopathicway"
<thehomeopathicway@...> wrote:

>
> Thank you for saying this. So simple and so true... If we could
> just 'get' that, it would be all we really ever needed to learn in
this
> life.
>
> For me, if I am honest with myself, what bugs me about my kids is
what
> bugs me about me. Not easy to be face to face with your own demons.
> But I guess that's their job.
>
> Dianna
> thehomeopathicway.blogspot.com

***Hey Dianna,

yes, I agree with you. It's often my own fears and anxieties that get
in the way of how relate to my kids in the present. Also, wanting
to 'save' them fro making the 'same mistakes I did'.

I can laugh about being 'away with the fairies' now - but as a child,
it did run me into all sorts of trouble. I don't want to see my ds (the
real dreamer) in terms of being 'off with the fairies' when I see that
it makes practical life hard for him at times, but then I realise too
how empowering it has been for me to have self accpetance of this trait
in me and for those who know me to accept it too. So that helps me to
honour it in him as well, because lots of amazing things about my ds is
linked to that 'dreamer' part of his nature. It would be so easy to
lose that in him, if I came down too hard on those 'off with the
fairies' moments.

Hope all that made sense....

Cathy.

keetry

>a 14 year-old boy who is (supposedly) high-functioning
> autistic. My mouth literally dropped open when he told me, because
> you just wouldn't know it. And he got my surprise and said that
many
> people don't realize it because he compensates - he understands the
> way social situations work enough that even though he has to
> consciously *think* about social behaviour, he can do that.

I have a neighbor like this. The boy is 12. His parents have told me
several times now that he is high-functioning autistic. I had no idea.
We have wonderful conversations. He plays with the other kids pretty
much like the other kids. They all have their little quirks or
whatever. I kind of wish they hadn't told me because now I'm wondering
if I have to be hyperaware of anything my 4yo might do that could
upset him, although I really have no idea what that could be. I see
how it has changed my view of him and now I have to work at not
thinking of him differently.

Alysia