elendil722003

Hi all,

I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my head
around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
books and websites like these.

I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance to
structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped Natural
Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey towards
RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
embrace RU.

Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and I
want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching' them -
or not, as he often sees it, lol.

Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay at
the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of his
need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just crumple
emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's family
members, of course!

How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right because
it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I agree
with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
to 'rebel').

Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have some
limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the life
experience to help them make healthy choices".

I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping anyway,
but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they would
jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel overwhelmed
by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and dearest
that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with the
kids, having fun, etc.

(sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really slowly,
so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).

Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the day
when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
say without starting world war three? How do I change my
defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?

Well, thanks for listening......

Cathy.

[email protected]

Can you send him this post?

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

-----Original Message-----
From: elendil722003 <chis31@...>


Hi all,

I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my head
around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
books and websites like these.

I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance to
structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped Natural
Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey towards
RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
embrace RU.

Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and I
want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching' them -
or not, as he often sees it, lol.

Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay at
the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of his
need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just crumple
emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's family
members, of course!

How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right because
it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I agree
with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
to 'rebel').

Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have some
limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the life
experience to help them make healthy choices".

I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping anyway,
but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they would
jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel overwhelmed
by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and dearest
that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with the
kids, having fun, etc.

(sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really slowly,
so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).

Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the day
when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
say without starting world war three? How do I change my
defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?

Well, thanks for listening......

Cathy.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: elendil722003 <chis31@...>

Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have some
limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?".

-=-=-=-=-

My answer to these is "why?"

Can they give you a logical reason behind their opinions?

-=-=-=-=-

Or "well you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted
with
more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the life
experience to help them make healthy choices".

-=-=-=-=-=-

I have two children that disprove that "fact," so i would have to
disagree that younger kids can't be trusted with freedom.

As for helping children make healthy choices: there's a BIG difference
with helping them make choices and making choices FOR them. Mine are
quite open to my knowledge and my ideas. But I have to be *just* as
open to understanding that they may make different choices with that
same information I have.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping anyway,
but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they would
jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel overwhelmed
by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and dearest
that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with the
kids, having fun, etc.

-=-=-=-=-

If they are willing to help, generously and without coercion, *why* are
you having trouble asking them?

I think some of you are confusing help generously and graciously given
with help given out of obligation.

I think that, as a species, we are naturally helpful. I think it's in
our nature to be cooperative. If you need help, ask. Be OK with no for
an answer, but my guess is that your kids would be happy to assist you.

--=-=-=-=-=

(sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really slowly,
so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).

-=-=-=-

Sweet.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the day
when I see 'mess'?

-=-=-=-

Know that no mom goes to her grave wishing she had had a cleaner house.

-=-=-=-=

When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
say without starting world war three?

-=-=-=-=-

Fair to whom? To him? to your kids? to neighbors? to yourself?

-=-=-=-=-

How do I change my
defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
about critiquing my journey?

-=-=-=-=-

Weellll, the only one who can change your defensiveness is you. By
being less defensive.

Quit letting it bother you.

I know that seems simplistic ---and not much help!---but it's truly the
only thing that will work.

"I appreciate your concern. Thanks! Please pass the bean dip." is a
good answer when others insist on critiquing me, my parenting, or
unschooling. I just figure they don't *want* to know, and there's
nothing I can do about it. They can stay in the dark as long as *they*
see fit. *I* can't change that. But I'm happy to let them in on how it
works for me IF they are willing to listen and are eager for the info.
If they just want to tell me how that won't work, I have absolutely no
time for them. None. I have better things to do with my time than to
try to convince someone who doesn't want to learn. (That's what schools
were built for! <G>) So far, my patience is paying off with some folks:
my in-laws have started to see that maybe I wasn't so crazy: my kids
are fine and smart and engaging and interested and interesting.

-==-=-=-=-=-

Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?

-=-=-=-

I don't know. Maybe both?

Can you be more specific?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Deb Lewis

***Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and I
want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching' them -
or not, as he often sees it, lol.***

If he'll read them, print posts from unschoolers whose children are older than your children. My husband didn't want to read a whole book but he'd read a post over morning coffee. Anything written by Pam Sorooshian made sense to him.<g> Give him things to read that will appeal to him. If the touchy, feely stuff you like won't do it, don't give him that stuff.

Read more yourself so that you gain confidence. Think of his questions as concerns and not attacks. He has a right to know his kids are ok.

Maybe write down what the kids are doing, what you talk about, what they read or what you read to them or what they watch, what games they play so that he can see they're doing something with their time. Give him a model to replace the school model he has in his head.

Remind him he trusts you. He trusted you to take care of helpless babies and now he can trust you to take care of your bigger kids. Reassure him you're not going to do anything that will hurt them. Let him see you're a thinking person too so he can have some confidence in you.

***How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right because
it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be.***

By recognizing that sounds *CRAZY* to a logical person so you'll have to give him more than that.<g> Some people *feel* the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so.<g> If you already know he won't be reassured by your singing heart, give him what *he* needs. There are logical reasons unschooling makes sense. There are well documented problems with mainstream education and public schooling.

A couple of times Joyce Fetteroll has used the analogy of a religious cult. If your husband wanted to get the kids involved in some weird religion would it reassure you if he told you the reason he thought it would be good for the kids is because it made his heart sing? You'd want more information and reassurance than that, I'm sure. I know if my dh ever said something like that to me his singing heart would be quivering on the floor with a fork stuck in it. And not a tuning fork either.

Get and read the John Holt books. Unschooling lists today will give you more immediate help with modern unschooling but those books make the problems of schooling very clear. They make a strong argument for natural learning.

***Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
feeling defensive, or 'wierd' ***

You don't need to "fit into" a new way of thinking. You either think a certain way or you don't. When you know what you think, and if you're thinking well, you won't feel insecure. "Fit into" sounds like you're trying something on, and if you don't know how it fits how do you expect folks around you to know it fits? Read more. Listen to your husband's concerns and address them. The more you know the more confident you'll feel. There's no magic.

*** When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
say without starting world war three? ***

*** Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?***

It's his house too, if he needs it more orderly then do what you can to meet his need. Does he get a day off? Would he be willing to spend a couple hours helping you clean? Would he take the kids to the park so you can clean? Can you hire someone to come in once a week and clean? Can you take a half hour before he gets home to tidy up? Get up before the kids do and clean house then? Stay up later than the kids and clean house? I don't know what will work for your family but something will. Find ways to make cleaning up easier. Get better organized. Make some cookies and ask a couple of friends to come over and help you organize one room. Ask for ideas from a friend who's house keeping skills you admire. Look at what works for other people and see if some of it might work for your home.

***How do I change my
defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
about critiquing my journey? ***

The more confident you become the more you'll be ok with the fact other people get to think what they want. <g> Learn as much about unschooling and natural learning as you can. Learn some of the arguments against mainstream education and public schooling and see if they seem valid to you. Learn what others are concerned about regarding your choice and see if there's anything to it and if there is, address that. If, after you've considered it carefully there's nothing to their concerns, then let it go.<g>

Your husband deserves special consideration though. He cares about his kids and you're stepping way outside his comfort zone. Help him get comfortable with what you're doing by being more confident, more informed, more able to address his concerns and more sensitive to his needs.

You don't need to get him to a place where he agrees with you entirely. Help him get comfortable knowing you won't do anything to hurt his kids. Help him go along with you comfortably. That might not be your ideal but it's worked well for many of us.



Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

shari bergquist

I can so relate to everything you said in your post Cathy and my two
daughters are the
same age as your children but I do have an almost four year old son as
well. My husband
says some of the same things sometimes too so I will enjoy hearing what some
others
here think about your situation. Shari B.

>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my head
> around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
> books and websites like these.
>
> I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance to
> structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
> believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped Natural
> Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey towards
> RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
> for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
> embrace RU.
>
> Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and I
> want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
> journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
> kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching' them -
> or not, as he often sees it, lol.
>
> Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay at
> the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of his
> need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just crumple
> emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
> admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
> organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
> etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's family
> members, of course!
>
> How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right because
> it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
> authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
> boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I agree
> with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
> control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
> haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
> to 'rebel').
>
> Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
> to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
> feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
> home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have some
> limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
> you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
> more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the life
> experience to help them make healthy choices".
>
> I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping anyway,
> but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
> them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
> nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they would
> jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
> happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
> best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel overwhelmed
> by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and dearest
> that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with the
> kids, having fun, etc.
>
> (sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
> mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
> said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really slowly,
> so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
> trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).
>
> Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the day
> when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
> the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
> say without starting world war three? How do I change my
> defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
> about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
> for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?
>
> Well, thanks for listening......
>
> Cathy.
>
>
>



--
Shari Bergquist
Independent Stampin' Up Demonstrator
www.sharibergquist.stampinup.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> Can you send him this post?
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

No - he would be hugely offended and angry that I had discussed our
situation in this context - but good thought - thanks Kelly.

Cathy.



>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elendil722003 <chis31@...>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my
head
> around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
> books and websites like these.
>
> I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance to
> structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
> believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped Natural
> Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey towards
> RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
> for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
> embrace RU.
>
> Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and I
> want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
> journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
> kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching'
them -
> or not, as he often sees it, lol.
>
> Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay at
> the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of his
> need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just
crumple
> emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
> admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
> organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
> etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's family
> members, of course!
>
> How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right because
> it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
> authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
> boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I
agree
> with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
> control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
> haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
> to 'rebel').
>
> Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
> to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
> feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
> home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have some
> limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
> you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
> more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the
life
> experience to help them make healthy choices".
>
> I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping
anyway,
> but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
> them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
> nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they
would
> jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
> happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
> best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel
overwhelmed
> by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and
dearest
> that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with the
> kids, having fun, etc.
>
> (sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
> mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
> said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really slowly,
> so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
> trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).
>
> Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the
day
> when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
> the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
> say without starting world war three? How do I change my
> defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
> about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
> for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?
>
> Well, thanks for listening......
>
> Cathy.
>

elendil722003

****Wow, thanks for all of your thoughtful and challenging replies.

I need to read all of it again and it has certainly helped me to
think about things from different perspectives.

Thanks so much again!******

Cathy.




--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> Can you send him this post?
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elendil722003 <chis31@...>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my
head
> around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
> books and websites like these.
>
> I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance to
> structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
> believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped Natural
> Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey towards
> RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
> for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
> embrace RU.
>
> Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and I
> want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
> journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
> kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching'
them -
> or not, as he often sees it, lol.
>
> Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay at
> the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of his
> need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just
crumple
> emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
> admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
> organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
> etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's family
> members, of course!
>
> How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right because
> it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
> authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
> boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I
agree
> with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
> control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
> haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
> to 'rebel').
>
> Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
> to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
> feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
> home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have some
> limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
> you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
> more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the
life
> experience to help them make healthy choices".
>
> I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping
anyway,
> but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
> them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
> nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they
would
> jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
> happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
> best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel
overwhelmed
> by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and
dearest
> that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with the
> kids, having fun, etc.
>
> (sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
> mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
> said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really slowly,
> so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
> trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).
>
> Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the
day
> when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
> the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
> say without starting world war three? How do I change my
> defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
> about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
> for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?
>
> Well, thanks for listening......
>
> Cathy.
>

keetry

--- In [email protected], "elendil722003"
<chis31@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@ wrote:
> >
> > Can you send him this post?
> >
> > ~Kelly
> >
> > Kelly Lovejoy
> > Conference Coordinator
> > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
> No - he would be hugely offended and angry that I had discussed
our
> situation in this context - but good thought - thanks Kelly.
>
> Cathy.


Can you copy it as a note to him without letting him know you posted
it here? Sometimes a written note is taken a lot better than
talking. Give him time to mull it over in his head as long as it
takes and let him come to you if/when he's ready to talk.

Alysia

elendil722003

Hi again everyone,

well thanks for all your ideas - I have reflected on all that's been
said, including Alysia's great suggestion about leaving a note for my
dh to read.

Deb - you really got my attention when you made the comments about
quivering hearts on the floor with forks stuck in them, lol, and to
be honest, I was slightly afraid of you after that <g>.

I guess what I have gleaned from these comments and Kelly's is that
there IS a logical basis to RU. In fact, during MY journey towards/
into RU, I have read PILES of material - all John Holts's stuff,
Naomi Aldort, working my way through Alfie Kohn's stuff now, looking
at NVC, talking on/or reading websites such as these.

Like duh! I am an adult educator in home ed and I am quite used to
people's concerns and fears (dealing with my own helps me to develop
great patience and empathy for others). I don't tell THEM that RU
makes my heart sing (just as well, they probably bring along forks in
case of crazy people <g> ). I also truly recognise that everyone will
parent and/or home ed differently and that RU isn't for everyone.

I guess I have been blind to the fact that my dh also needs to
understand and discuss what I'm on about in logical terms - not just
because I am venturing way outside our traditional upbringings and
those of his friends - but because he needs to discuss and develop
his parenting philosophy too.

I know I have a great ability to communicate myself well on a subject
I am passionate about and it's not as though I feel unsure (just new)
on the subject of RU. But I do take the point that it is only MY
defensiveness or reaction that I can change and perhaps my initial
post was about me working THAT out. I also need to take the same
empathy and patience I have for parents I deal with and give some to
dh!

I guess that I need to know when to express my more ethereal
interpretations of RU and when to stay within the logical realm.

And Kelly, you are right that it was ME, who was having an issue with
asking the kids to help, even though I know that they are quite
willing to. Thank you for reminding me that I do have trust in their
essential goodness and it's probably more a question for me to figure
out - what does a 'good housekeeper' mean anyway? If I have been
learning how to be more present with my kids and play with them/spend
time on their terms, yes, the outcome has been less time spent
on 'housework'. So, I now want to change my paradigm about housework -
not despair that I'm failing MY unrealistic expectations.

Thanks again guys - I really like to be challenged (and reassured),
by this kind of feedback and discussion.

Cheers,

Cathy.

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 18, 2008, at 9:10 PM, elendil722003 wrote:

> I guess that I need to know when to express my more ethereal
> interpretations of RU and when to stay within the logical realm.

There really isn't a way to get men to understand emotional arguments
unless they're already wired like that. Some form of "It makes my
heart sing" doesn't answer the question "How will they get into
college?" ;-) Just as "It feels like it's working when I can see
completed workbooks," doesn't answer the question, "How can we help
them be happy?"

You can try printing off pages from my website. The answers tend to
appeal more to men.

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elendil722003

Yes, you're right - I have to remember the logical approach is very
valid. I have been forwarding little snippets of things from your
website and others, such as Sandra Dodd and Pam S.

Thanks Joyce,

Cathy.


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>

>
> > I guess that I need to know when to express my more ethereal
> > interpretations of RU and when to stay within the logical realm.>
There really isn't a way to get men to understand emotional
arguments
> unless they're already wired like that. Some form of "It makes my
> heart sing" doesn't answer the question "How will they get into
> college?" ;-) Just as "It feels like it's working when I can see
> completed workbooks," doesn't answer the question, "How can we
help
> them be happy?"
>
> You can try printing off pages from my website. The answers tend
to
> appeal more to men.
>
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Deb Lewis

***you really got my attention when you made the comments about
quivering hearts on the floor with forks stuck in them, lol, and to
be honest, I was slightly afraid of you after that <g>.***

Good, then my sinister plan is working...(laughing maniacally while twisting the pointy ends of my wicked moustache)

I wasn't really trying to scare you. Unschooling makes my heart sing too. But if we're trying to persuade our partners that what we're doing makes sense, there are better arguments to be made. <g>

Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

~~~Unschooling makes my heart sing too. But if we're trying to
persuade our partners that what we're doing makes sense, there are
better arguments to be made.~~~

I just want to say... not being contentious, but because this was a
recent conversation I had...

I don't think there are better arguments to be made. There might be
reasons that will resonate better with a logical thinker... that
doesn't make them better arguments. I am a *feeler*, highly intuitive,
and I won't downplay that just because it's not valued by our society.

Why am I voting for my presidential candidate? Because he makes my
heart sing. (and I agree with him on most issues - I do research!) But
ultimately? Because I want to. I won't win many arguments with this,
but I rely on my heart and gut to guide me. I don't live my life to
win arguments, I live it to live in joy and in harmony with my purpose.

I know that's a different point than what you were saying - like I
said, it's on my mind because of a recent talk I had with friends.

peace,
Caren

John Cyphers

Hello,

I am the father of 2 wonderful Unschooled children. My wife has been
the cart driver in our journey toward unschooling and I am not sure
if she considers herself completely a RU. She does operate in a very
similar way.

I had a difficult time accepting unschooling as a healthy alternative
to public school. My wife seemed to have a negative attitude towards
public school and that affected the way that I viewed unschooling. I
had some great experiences in school and had some real good teachers.
I did have some difficulties and begged my parents at one time to let
me home school (it was a social issue, I did not like some of the
other children and the way that they emulated their parents) to no
avail.

My wife did not try to force me to accept unschooling; she was in
charge of raising the children because I was unsure of how to be a
good parent. My parents were of the disciplinarian/punishment
persuasion and deep down I knew that to be the wrong path. I thought
that spanking was alright in the context of loving and caring. Boy
was I WRONG on that! I think back to those times and can not believe
that I was that person. My training and personal experience with
teaching myself to play music and do anything that interested in me
came from much rehearsal and rigid practice. SO... I came to believe
that for my children to learn they HAD to practice in order to learn
anything and thus the disciplinarian in me was raising its unwanted
head. My oldest child would just shut me out whenever I would try to
convince her to practice anything. This was frustrating for me; I
wanted to share what I knew and teach her how to do things that
interested me. There is the problem right there. I wanted her to do
what I wanted. Not what she wanted. That was the hurdle that took me
so long to get over. I wanted to do what I thought was appropriate as
a parent so that my children could be what I had interpreted to be
acceptable people in society. My notions were based on very common
types of thinking and thoughts that are difficult for me to
comprehend in a healthy life affirming loving natural way. I was
terribly bogged down with negative thinking, I knew that I could
predict how things would go and could help force them into existence
by focusing on them even to the point of obsession always to the
least favorable outcome.

Getting past my negative way of looking at life has taken many years
and even now I am still just emerging from the depths of doom. I have
been rejected so many times by my wife when I wanted to force teach
or discipline. Every volley lobbed her way she managed to smash back
at me. She remained strong no matter how much what I was doing was
hurting her and our children. She has fought the good fight and
thanks to her I am now on her team and we are playing together. But
it has been a long and painful road. I do not want to discourage you
at the prospect of how much work it will take for your husband to get
on board with you and RU but it truly is up to him to understand and
make the decision to change his way of thinking. When I hit rock
bottom with my struggles to get my way and came to realize that I
would never succeed in forcing my family to do it my way. I read for
the first time "How children fail" by John Holt, the truth that I
discovered from John Holt is that empowering children and freeing
them to make their own decisions and be the people that they are
without interference has a greater impact on how they develop than
trying to cookie cutter them into the people that traditional
parenting and schooling would have them be. It was a realization that
helped me understand how I was programmed by the school system to
accept and tow the party line for the good of the order. I came to
understand how my spirit had been broken by competition in school and
the demands of social interaction with people that knew mostly how to
look out for themselves and step on anyone that got in the way. This
led me to look into my past and discover what I was afraid of in
letting go of my selfish way of thinking. I discovered many previous
events that caused me great agony to revisit but I let them heal in
me and now have moved forward from that person that I was.
I am trying to be as brief as I can and give a full representation of
what it took for me to accept the unschooling philosophy and daily
practice. I have been unschooling myself my whole life I had not
realized it before now and I want to share it with my children and by
my example of happy inner feelings that well up inside of me and help
me float above the daily grind of having to go to work every day and
do the dumb things I gotta do that they will benefit from a father
that loves, lives and gives into to positive thinking as opposed to
daddy downer.

I know that if people are to be happy it is up to them to decide to
be happy and not pushed into happiness. I hope that my experience
will help you on your journey with the simple fact that people can
change and I am an example of a very stubborn person who has made a
life changing transformation for the good of his family.

johnny

--- In [email protected], "elendil722003"
<chis31@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my
head
> around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
> books and websites like these.
>
> I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance
to
> structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
> believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped
Natural
> Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey towards
> RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
> for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
> embrace RU.
>
> Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place and
I
> want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
> journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for the
> kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching'
them -
> or not, as he often sees it, lol.
>
> Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay
at
> the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of
his
> need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just
crumple
> emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
> admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
> organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
> etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's family
> members, of course!
>
> How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right
because
> it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming the
> authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration and
> boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I
agree
> with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
> control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
> haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
> to 'rebel').
>
> Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they began
> to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
> feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even with
> home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have
some
> limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
> you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
> more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the
life
> experience to help them make healthy choices".
>
> I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping
anyway,
> but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely release
> them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
> nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they
would
> jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
> happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT the
> best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel
overwhelmed
> by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and
dearest
> that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with
the
> kids, having fun, etc.
>
> (sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
> mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street. She
> said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really
slowly,
> so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children aren't
> trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).
>
> Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the
day
> when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to keep
> the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do I
> say without starting world war three? How do I change my
> defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are okay
> about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS needs
> for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?
>
> Well, thanks for listening......
>
> Cathy.
>

Ren Allen

~~I am a *feeler*, highly intuitive,
and I won't downplay that just because it's not valued by our society.~~

In one of my talks I make the point that the logical/linguistic skills
are SO highly revered by our society and other strengths hugely
ignored or discredited. Schools are especially good at this.

Of course it pays to know how to communicate with those
logical/linguistic types if we're trying to make a point...my dh can
be somewhat that way though he is very intuitive also. Thank goodness
or unschooling would have been REALLY difficult to manage.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

elendil722003

Hey Caren,

I like what you said about not downplaying the fact that you are an
intuitive type. I think it is great to honour that side of ourselves
and acknowledge it as playing a part in our parenting journey.

In a logical world, it is great to know what makes our spirtis soar
and allows us to reconnect - because in those moments, I am reminded
that even the mundane is sacred.

Cathy.


--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...>
wrote:
>
> ~~~Unschooling makes my heart sing too. But if we're trying to
> persuade our partners that what we're doing makes sense, there are
> better arguments to be made.~~~
>
> I just want to say... not being contentious, but because this was a
> recent conversation I had...
>
> I don't think there are better arguments to be made. There might be
> reasons that will resonate better with a logical thinker... that
> doesn't make them better arguments. I am a *feeler*, highly
intuitive,
> and I won't downplay that just because it's not valued by our
society.
>
> Why am I voting for my presidential candidate? Because he makes my
> heart sing. (and I agree with him on most issues - I do research!)
But
> ultimately? Because I want to. I won't win many arguments with this,
> but I rely on my heart and gut to guide me. I don't live my life to
> win arguments, I live it to live in joy and in harmony with my
purpose.
>
> I know that's a different point than what you were saying - like I
> said, it's on my mind because of a recent talk I had with friends.
>
> peace,
> Caren
>

elendil722003

Hey John,

thank you SO much for sharing in such an honest way about your own
journey.

I agree that it can take someone a long time to process and go
through things that have happened to them in childhood and at school.
I didn't have a positive overall exerience of school and emerged as a
real cynic of the system and utterly convinced that I was sucessful
despite school. I skipped a lot of high school doing things that I
thought were more worthwhile, such as riding my horses and working in
animal husbandry. I have always used to 'making my own way' and
training and working in several areas of interest.

My dh, on the other hand, operated effectively within the structure
of school and university. He has a high need for order, structure,
routine and logical foundations for all these. He is a skilled
problem-solver in many areas of his life, such as work and practical
tasks and time management. He questions unschooling as an educational
approach and a lifestyle. He often wonders how the children will
learn self-discipline, healthy sleeping habits, a good work ethic,
respect for others, good manners and study skills, unless they are
frequently guided. His method of teaching involves lots of
instruction, advice, talk of consequences (mostly natural these days,
as we have progressed away from punitive and artifical consequences).
He sees unschooling as leaving too much to chance. He values
relationships highly and enjoys spending time doing things with the
children. The main source of disagreement is on HOW things will be
done. I struggle with the idea of there being ONE way to do
something, or that someone 'should' do something accrding to the
adult's preference, time-frame, etc. Like you, he was parented in an
authoritarian way, the adults always having the ultimate 'right'
position and taking a guiding hand in even small details of his life.

It IS a long and painful process when a partnership needs to work
through this, but I am really pleased that you and your family have
found some great things out of the process.

I do have faith that people can change, even if they may be
very 'stubborn', as you described yourself. I say this because I am
pretty stubborn myself - I think my dh would probably desribe me in a
similiar way to how you described your wife - always strong and ready
to volley back the shot, lol.

Cheers,

Cathy.


--- In [email protected], "John Cyphers"
<john_cyphers@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am the father of 2 wonderful Unschooled children. My wife has
been
> the cart driver in our journey toward unschooling and I am not sure
> if she considers herself completely a RU. She does operate in a
very
> similar way.
>
> I had a difficult time accepting unschooling as a healthy
alternative
> to public school. My wife seemed to have a negative attitude
towards
> public school and that affected the way that I viewed unschooling.
I
> had some great experiences in school and had some real good
teachers.
> I did have some difficulties and begged my parents at one time to
let
> me home school (it was a social issue, I did not like some of the
> other children and the way that they emulated their parents) to no
> avail.
>
> My wife did not try to force me to accept unschooling; she was in
> charge of raising the children because I was unsure of how to be a
> good parent. My parents were of the disciplinarian/punishment
> persuasion and deep down I knew that to be the wrong path. I
thought
> that spanking was alright in the context of loving and caring. Boy
> was I WRONG on that! I think back to those times and can not
believe
> that I was that person. My training and personal experience with
> teaching myself to play music and do anything that interested in me
> came from much rehearsal and rigid practice. SO... I came to
believe
> that for my children to learn they HAD to practice in order to
learn
> anything and thus the disciplinarian in me was raising its unwanted
> head. My oldest child would just shut me out whenever I would try
to
> convince her to practice anything. This was frustrating for me; I
> wanted to share what I knew and teach her how to do things that
> interested me. There is the problem right there. I wanted her to do
> what I wanted. Not what she wanted. That was the hurdle that took
me
> so long to get over. I wanted to do what I thought was appropriate
as
> a parent so that my children could be what I had interpreted to be
> acceptable people in society. My notions were based on very common
> types of thinking and thoughts that are difficult for me to
> comprehend in a healthy life affirming loving natural way. I was
> terribly bogged down with negative thinking, I knew that I could
> predict how things would go and could help force them into
existence
> by focusing on them even to the point of obsession always to the
> least favorable outcome.
>
> Getting past my negative way of looking at life has taken many
years
> and even now I am still just emerging from the depths of doom. I
have
> been rejected so many times by my wife when I wanted to force teach
> or discipline. Every volley lobbed her way she managed to smash
back
> at me. She remained strong no matter how much what I was doing was
> hurting her and our children. She has fought the good fight and
> thanks to her I am now on her team and we are playing together. But
> it has been a long and painful road. I do not want to discourage
you
> at the prospect of how much work it will take for your husband to
get
> on board with you and RU but it truly is up to him to understand
and
> make the decision to change his way of thinking. When I hit rock
> bottom with my struggles to get my way and came to realize that I
> would never succeed in forcing my family to do it my way. I read
for
> the first time "How children fail" by John Holt, the truth that I
> discovered from John Holt is that empowering children and freeing
> them to make their own decisions and be the people that they are
> without interference has a greater impact on how they develop than
> trying to cookie cutter them into the people that traditional
> parenting and schooling would have them be. It was a realization
that
> helped me understand how I was programmed by the school system to
> accept and tow the party line for the good of the order. I came to
> understand how my spirit had been broken by competition in school
and
> the demands of social interaction with people that knew mostly how
to
> look out for themselves and step on anyone that got in the way.
This
> led me to look into my past and discover what I was afraid of in
> letting go of my selfish way of thinking. I discovered many
previous
> events that caused me great agony to revisit but I let them heal in
> me and now have moved forward from that person that I was.
> I am trying to be as brief as I can and give a full representation
of
> what it took for me to accept the unschooling philosophy and daily
> practice. I have been unschooling myself my whole life I had not
> realized it before now and I want to share it with my children and
by
> my example of happy inner feelings that well up inside of me and
help
> me float above the daily grind of having to go to work every day
and
> do the dumb things I gotta do that they will benefit from a father
> that loves, lives and gives into to positive thinking as opposed to
> daddy downer.
>
> I know that if people are to be happy it is up to them to decide to
> be happy and not pushed into happiness. I hope that my experience
> will help you on your journey with the simple fact that people can
> change and I am an example of a very stubborn person who has made a
> life changing transformation for the good of his family.
>
> johnny
>
> --- In [email protected], "elendil722003"
> <chis31@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my
> head
> > around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
> > books and websites like these.
> >
> > I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance
> to
> > structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
> > believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped
> Natural
> > Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey
towards
> > RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
> > for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
> > embrace RU.
> >
> > Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place
and
> I
> > want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
> > journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for
the
> > kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching'
> them -
> > or not, as he often sees it, lol.
> >
> > Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay
> at
> > the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of
> his
> > need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just
> crumple
> > emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
> > admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
> > organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
> > etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's
family
> > members, of course!
> >
> > How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right
> because
> > it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming
the
> > authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration
and
> > boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I
> agree
> > with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
> > control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
> > haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
> > to 'rebel').
> >
> > Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they
began
> > to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
> > feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even
with
> > home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have
> some
> > limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
> > you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
> > more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the
> life
> > experience to help them make healthy choices".
> >
> > I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping
> anyway,
> > but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely
release
> > them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
> > nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they
> would
> > jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
> > happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT
the
> > best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel
> overwhelmed
> > by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and
> dearest
> > that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with
> the
> > kids, having fun, etc.
> >
> > (sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
> > mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street.
She
> > said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really
> slowly,
> > so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children
aren't
> > trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).
> >
> > Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the
> day
> > when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to
keep
> > the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do
I
> > say without starting world war three? How do I change my
> > defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are
okay
> > about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS
needs
> > for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?
> >
> > Well, thanks for listening......
> >
> > Cathy.
> >
>

elendil722003

Hey Deb,

I think it's a matter of meeting people where they're at too.
Easier said than done sometimes, but part of being a good
communicator. I am pretty good at being logical myself, but those
emotions get in there and I guess impatience has a part to play too.

Have you always been good at explaining yourself logically and did
you come to unschooling by instinct or logic, do you think?

Cheers,

Cathy.




--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:
>
> ***you really got my attention when you made the comments about
> quivering hearts on the floor with forks stuck in them, lol, and to
> be honest, I was slightly afraid of you after that <g>.***
>
> Good, then my sinister plan is working...(laughing maniacally while
twisting the pointy ends of my wicked moustache)
>
> I wasn't really trying to scare you. Unschooling makes my heart
sing too. But if we're trying to persuade our partners that what
we're doing makes sense, there are better arguments to be made. <g>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Judy R

Wow, these issues are the real ones, eh? Althougn it isn't just RU-ers that have them in a marriage...it's very hard to live with someone who has different views than your own, what ever those may be....my husband ( now my ex) had a lot of issues right from the beginning of our twin girls being born - there are a lot of things you don't about yourself or the other person before your kids come - you can't really know these things- so much of it is "unconscious parenting" - I took some parenting classes when the gilrs were little (2 or3?) that were, I can see now, basically touting a "child-led" philosophy, although that's not what they were called at the time. It was such a HUGE eye-opener for me - I made the big "paradigm shift" then, but my husband never did really get it at all - and it did eventually lead us to living in separate households.

In our case, that has actually been a really good decision - the girls primarily live with me now and though he occaisionally blows smoke about them going back to school, I know that won't happen unless *they* decide that's what they want to do - luckily he isn't vindictive, and I believe he is a least border-line autistic, (which is one reason he has such difficulty grasping anything new s far as behaviour is concerned) so being able to carry out some kind of organized campaign just isn't in his abilities - luckily for us. I know people who's ex's have taking them to court over the schooling issue.

Has anyone here read the Eckhart Tolle books - The New Earth and The Power of Now - I think it's maybe unfortunate that thewse books are on Oprah and all that because it may lead people to dismiss them as too mainstream, whatever - I think they are really excellent and their popularity may lead some people *not* to read them :-{ anyway, the books are about the nature of human consciousness - they are very buddhist really - he is talking about how we can free ourselves from what he calls the "egoic" mind - reactiveness and such - I have found these ideas to be a *huge* help when dealing with all these issues - they have helped me to find some peace and solidness with the idea that I am doing stuff with my children that my family of origin and my husband all think is wrong - that is a very hard thing to live with.

So, anyway, goodl luck in your own struggles - I know it is not easy, all the housework issues, the worry about whether it is the right thing when people around you are saying it is wrong, and all the regular marriage issues thrown in - hopefully being able to let it all out on this list will help! With love and respect - Judy R, in Kingston


----- Original Message -----
From: elendil722003
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 10:11 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Wanting to be radical, lol.



Hey John,

thank you SO much for sharing in such an honest way about your own
journey.

I agree that it can take someone a long time to process and go
through things that have happened to them in childhood and at school.
I didn't have a positive overall exerience of school and emerged as a
real cynic of the system and utterly convinced that I was sucessful
despite school. I skipped a lot of high school doing things that I
thought were more worthwhile, such as riding my horses and working in
animal husbandry. I have always used to 'making my own way' and
training and working in several areas of interest.

My dh, on the other hand, operated effectively within the structure
of school and university. He has a high need for order, structure,
routine and logical foundations for all these. He is a skilled
problem-solver in many areas of his life, such as work and practical
tasks and time management. He questions unschooling as an educational
approach and a lifestyle. He often wonders how the children will
learn self-discipline, healthy sleeping habits, a good work ethic,
respect for others, good manners and study skills, unless they are
frequently guided. His method of teaching involves lots of
instruction, advice, talk of consequences (mostly natural these days,
as we have progressed away from punitive and artifical consequences).
He sees unschooling as leaving too much to chance. He values
relationships highly and enjoys spending time doing things with the
children. The main source of disagreement is on HOW things will be
done. I struggle with the idea of there being ONE way to do
something, or that someone 'should' do something accrding to the
adult's preference, time-frame, etc. Like you, he was parented in an
authoritarian way, the adults always having the ultimate 'right'
position and taking a guiding hand in even small details of his life.

It IS a long and painful process when a partnership needs to work
through this, but I am really pleased that you and your family have
found some great things out of the process.

I do have faith that people can change, even if they may be
very 'stubborn', as you described yourself. I say this because I am
pretty stubborn myself - I think my dh would probably desribe me in a
similiar way to how you described your wife - always strong and ready
to volley back the shot, lol.

Cheers,

Cathy.

--- In [email protected], "John Cyphers"
<john_cyphers@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am the father of 2 wonderful Unschooled children. My wife has
been
> the cart driver in our journey toward unschooling and I am not sure
> if she considers herself completely a RU. She does operate in a
very
> similar way.
>
> I had a difficult time accepting unschooling as a healthy
alternative
> to public school. My wife seemed to have a negative attitude
towards
> public school and that affected the way that I viewed unschooling.
I
> had some great experiences in school and had some real good
teachers.
> I did have some difficulties and begged my parents at one time to
let
> me home school (it was a social issue, I did not like some of the
> other children and the way that they emulated their parents) to no
> avail.
>
> My wife did not try to force me to accept unschooling; she was in
> charge of raising the children because I was unsure of how to be a
> good parent. My parents were of the disciplinarian/punishment
> persuasion and deep down I knew that to be the wrong path. I
thought
> that spanking was alright in the context of loving and caring. Boy
> was I WRONG on that! I think back to those times and can not
believe
> that I was that person. My training and personal experience with
> teaching myself to play music and do anything that interested in me
> came from much rehearsal and rigid practice. SO... I came to
believe
> that for my children to learn they HAD to practice in order to
learn
> anything and thus the disciplinarian in me was raising its unwanted
> head. My oldest child would just shut me out whenever I would try
to
> convince her to practice anything. This was frustrating for me; I
> wanted to share what I knew and teach her how to do things that
> interested me. There is the problem right there. I wanted her to do
> what I wanted. Not what she wanted. That was the hurdle that took
me
> so long to get over. I wanted to do what I thought was appropriate
as
> a parent so that my children could be what I had interpreted to be
> acceptable people in society. My notions were based on very common
> types of thinking and thoughts that are difficult for me to
> comprehend in a healthy life affirming loving natural way. I was
> terribly bogged down with negative thinking, I knew that I could
> predict how things would go and could help force them into
existence
> by focusing on them even to the point of obsession always to the
> least favorable outcome.
>
> Getting past my negative way of looking at life has taken many
years
> and even now I am still just emerging from the depths of doom. I
have
> been rejected so many times by my wife when I wanted to force teach
> or discipline. Every volley lobbed her way she managed to smash
back
> at me. She remained strong no matter how much what I was doing was
> hurting her and our children. She has fought the good fight and
> thanks to her I am now on her team and we are playing together. But
> it has been a long and painful road. I do not want to discourage
you
> at the prospect of how much work it will take for your husband to
get
> on board with you and RU but it truly is up to him to understand
and
> make the decision to change his way of thinking. When I hit rock
> bottom with my struggles to get my way and came to realize that I
> would never succeed in forcing my family to do it my way. I read
for
> the first time "How children fail" by John Holt, the truth that I
> discovered from John Holt is that empowering children and freeing
> them to make their own decisions and be the people that they are
> without interference has a greater impact on how they develop than
> trying to cookie cutter them into the people that traditional
> parenting and schooling would have them be. It was a realization
that
> helped me understand how I was programmed by the school system to
> accept and tow the party line for the good of the order. I came to
> understand how my spirit had been broken by competition in school
and
> the demands of social interaction with people that knew mostly how
to
> look out for themselves and step on anyone that got in the way.
This
> led me to look into my past and discover what I was afraid of in
> letting go of my selfish way of thinking. I discovered many
previous
> events that caused me great agony to revisit but I let them heal in
> me and now have moved forward from that person that I was.
> I am trying to be as brief as I can and give a full representation
of
> what it took for me to accept the unschooling philosophy and daily
> practice. I have been unschooling myself my whole life I had not
> realized it before now and I want to share it with my children and
by
> my example of happy inner feelings that well up inside of me and
help
> me float above the daily grind of having to go to work every day
and
> do the dumb things I gotta do that they will benefit from a father
> that loves, lives and gives into to positive thinking as opposed to
> daddy downer.
>
> I know that if people are to be happy it is up to them to decide to
> be happy and not pushed into happiness. I hope that my experience
> will help you on your journey with the simple fact that people can
> change and I am an example of a very stubborn person who has made a
> life changing transformation for the good of his family.
>
> johnny
>
> --- In [email protected], "elendil722003"
> <chis31@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have lurked here for about a year now. I am starting to get my
> head
> > around RU and have met some great RU people and great authors via
> > books and websites like these.
> >
> > I have home edded for six years and after meeting huge resistance
> to
> > structured work by my then 6 and half year old (I know - I can't
> > believe I did that to us!) My two kids and I eagerly grasped
> Natural
> > Learning and since then we have had a slow but sure journey
towards
> > RU. I have to give so much credit to my beautiful children
> > for 'knowing' and I am so glad to feel I can follow my heart and
> > embrace RU.
> >
> > Okay, now the tricky bit - my husband is not in the same place
and
> I
> > want to respect him and where he is, without compromising how my
> > journey is going. We still have times where he 'sets' work for
the
> > kids, or expresses a lot of fears about the way I am 'teaching'
> them -
> > or not, as he often sees it, lol.
> >
> > Being an instinctual person kind of discovering that this is okay
> at
> > the age of 35, I still feel incredibly vulnerable in the face of
> his
> > need to work it all out in long debates with me. I often just
> crumple
> > emotionally in these situations, which is quite embarressing to
> > admit, because in my capacity of a volunteer for my home ed
> > organisation, I answer enquiries, run courses and info workshops,
> > etc. I feel much more comfortable reassuring other people's
family
> > members, of course!
> >
> > How do I explain to a logical person that I feel RU is right
> because
> > it makes my heart sing, it helps me to feel like I am becoming
the
> > authentic me and that it is freeing my kids up from frustration
and
> > boundaries and releasing them to be who they need to be. (And I
> agree
> > with others here - they do NOT go wild, because I don't try and
> > control and guide them and orchestrate 'learning' for them and I
> > haven't noticed any delinquency yet - in fact much less of a need
> > to 'rebel').
> >
> > Can anyone offer suggestions or share experiences of how they
began
> > to fit into the RU paradigm in a way that enabled them to stop
> > feeling defensive, or 'wierd' - I even suddenly feel odd even
with
> > home ed friends who say stuff like - "well, they've GOT to have
> some
> > limits and shouldn't they help you around the house?". Or "well
> > you're kids are older now (8 and 12), so they can be trusted with
> > more freedom. With little kids, parents just know more, have the
> life
> > experience to help them make healthy choices".
> >
> > I have been blessed that my kids are pretty good with helping
> anyway,
> > but I am finding there is less getting done as I completely
release
> > them of ANY coercion to help. I know I could appeal to their good
> > nature at any time if I said I was feeling overwhelmed and they
> would
> > jump into it, but I want to even past that and look at what would
> > happen if I released MYSELF from that experience. And I am NOT
the
> > best housekeeper in the world - but, I don't WANT to feel
> overwhelmed
> > by tasks. I have been charactersied by some of my nearest and
> dearest
> > that I am disorganised, easily distracted, out all the time with
> the
> > kids, having fun, etc.
> >
> > (sorry - tearful moment - my eight year old just rang me on the
> > mobile phone on her walk with the dog to the end of the street.
She
> > said "I don't want you to worry Mum, but I am walking really
> slowly,
> > so I will take longer to get back, okay?". Who says children
aren't
> > trustworthy and responsible people....awwww).
> >
> > Yes, so how do I embrace my own stuff and not miss the joy in the
> day
> > when I see 'mess'? When my husband says it's not fair of me to
keep
> > the house in disorder at times, that I should compromise, what do
I
> > say without starting world war three? How do I change my
> > defensiveness and extend RU relating to him and others who are
okay
> > about critiquing my journey? Am I being disrespectful of HIS
needs
> > for order, or is it something he needs to work out on his own?
> >
> > Well, thanks for listening......
> >
> > Cathy.
> >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***I think it's a matter of meeting people where they're at too.***

I'm never really sure what that means. <g> If someone is not in the frame of mind to understand what we're doing I don't try to meet them where they are I just don't bother with them .<g> A partner is different though and I think if you have information your partner needs it's better to give it than withhold it. If you mean we ought to be patient with partners who don't quite get it yet then I agree. Our good example and confidence will go a long way toward keeping peace even if they're never fully persuaded.

***Have you always been good about explaining yourself logically***

No, but as an adult I've tried to be honest and not exaggerate and that helps. The more credibility you have the more likely people are to consider your opinion.

***did you come to unschooling by instinct or logic, do you think?***

When I held my baby and thought about his immediate future I wanted something better for him than school. When I started thinking about learning and started doing some research unschooling made sense.
I read the John Holt books early on and in those days Growing Without Schooling was still being published. Somewhere around the time Dylan was four or five I read an article by Sandra Dodd . Those things helped. Dylan (ds) was the biggest reason though. I watched how he did what we did and it was proof to me that he was learning from living in the world and there was no reason to think that would change as he got older. And, he didn't want to go to school. When he was little and other people would talk about him going to school one day he'd always say he wasn't going. He never did change his mind about that. <g>

Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***He questions unschooling as an educational
approach and a lifestyle. He often wonders how the children will
learn self-discipline, healthy sleeping habits, a good work ethic,
respect for others, good manners and study skills, unless they are
frequently guided. ***

He might like the John Holt books. Would he read something you recommend? If you read one first and shared bits of it with him would he read it then?

Maybe you can help him see that unschooling doesn't mean you don't offer guidance. Maybe something your saying sounds to him like "let them do whatever."

I have very frequently guided my son. Lot's when he was little, less as he got older, but it didn't look like traditional parenting, it looked like one person helping another person.

What does your husband mean by self discipline? Does he wonder how they will learn to brush their teeth every day? Does he wonder how they'll wake on time for appointments or jobs? What is his worry?
Look for articles or posts that address his specific concerns. At Sandra Dodd's website, www.sandradodd.com/unschooling articles are listed by topic and you might find just the thing there. Joyce Fetteroll has a really nice website too, www.joyfullyrejoycing.com same deal, you can scroll through until you find the topic of interest.

People will eventually sleep when they're tired<g>. There's no way to get around it. Lot's of adults have to juggle their sleep schedule to meet their work schedule, doctors, nurses, patrolmen, night shifters and swing shifters. A healthy sleep schedule will mean something different to each person and will probably change several times during one's lifetime. Kids who get to experiment a lot at home with sleeping and waking and staying up late and staying up round the clock are getting lots of information about how sleep or too little sleep makes them feel. You can't really learn good sleep habits (whatever that is) by someone telling you how much sleep you should have and when it should start and when it should end. You can only gain that information by experience. It's a myth that everyone needs the same amount of sleep and sleep needs can change depending on hormones, season, stress, health, growth, activity...

Find out what your husband means by a good work ethic. My husband thought it meant going to work on time every day and doing a good job. The other part of what he did was complain a lot about his co workers, his job, his boss, his schedule... He thought he was being a good example by going to work every day but he was really sending the message that work was horrible. Ask your husband to describe to you what a good work ethic is and then pay attention to how he talks about work in front of the kids.

People are respectful if they grow up receiving respect. There's no magic to it. The reason kids in school have special classes now to *teach* respect is because those kids don't receive respect and have no idea of it's value. *Teaching* respect won't work, the schools will continue to have problems with kids. In your home, where you and your partner respect each other and where your kids are treated respectfully, the kid will be able to see the value of respect and will have lots of experience. They'll be full of respect if you fill them with it. They'll be respect-full <g> and will be able to show it to others.

We have family members from different cultural and religious backgrounds so we have talked a lot about what respect means to different family members.

Maybe if you talk more with your husband about what good manners look like to him and then talk about the ways your kids have and will continue to learn about manners he'll see that the kids will be getting guidance from you both, all along. We were going to visit some folks we haven't seen in awhile and I told Dylan, "They'll expect us to take our shoes off when we go in." At home we take our shoes of when we want but not as a matter of routine for keeping the floors clean, so I thought he'd want that information, and want it before we got there in case he wanted to make a choice about which shoes or socks to wear. <g>

Study skills? When people are interested in something they look for all the information they want about it. That's natural. You need study skills if you're trying to do something you don't really care about. A better goal would be to give your kids a life where they're busy doing what they love and there'll be little need for study skills. <g> Study skills aren't something a person need years of practice at though.. If your kids go to college and need to study for a paper they'll be able to do it if the course is interesting to them, or important in some way, even if that paper isn't about the most interesting thing. Study skills look different for different people, too.


Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carron Armstrong

My husband was very skeptical of unschooling -- that is until he attended an
unschooling conference. He came away more "radical" than I was. It turns
out that he was not so much concerned about discipline, or whether the kids
would learn everything they "should", but rather he was most concerned that
our children and our family would be so far out of the mainstream that we
would be considered weird.

The one thing that impressed him the most was the attitude and demeanor of
the unschooled teens at the conference. He loved that they loved being
there with their families and socializing with the younger kids and the
adults, that they often looked different (lots of punk type get-ups), and
that they seemed to have it so together. He went to a couple of panel
sessions with teens and learned that they were doing just fine in life. He
also figured out that there's a lot less rebellion as a whole in the
population of unschooled teens. He decided that's because their parents are
a lot more open-minded and the kids have less to rebel against.

But mostly, I think it was great for him to be around other dads who had
made the journey and were pleased that their children were healthy and
happy.

Carron

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:

> ***He questions unschooling as an educational
> approach and a lifestyle. He often wonders how the children will
> learn self-discipline, healthy sleeping habits, a good work ethic,
> respect for others, good manners and study skills, unless they are
> frequently guided. ***
>
> He might like the John Holt books. Would he read something you recommend?
> If you read one first and shared bits of it with him would he read it then?
>
> Maybe you can help him see that unschooling doesn't mean you don't offer
> guidance. Maybe something your saying sounds to him like "let them do
> whatever."
>
> I have very frequently guided my son. Lot's when he was little, less as he
> got older, but it didn't look like traditional parenting, it looked like one
> person helping another person.
>
> What does your husband mean by self discipline? Does he wonder how they
> will learn to brush their teeth every day? Does he wonder how they'll wake
> on time for appointments or jobs? What is his worry?
> Look for articles or posts that address his specific concerns. At Sandra
> Dodd's website, www.sandradodd.com/unschooling articles are listed by
> topic and you might find just the thing there. Joyce Fetteroll has a really
> nice website too, www.joyfullyrejoycing.com same deal, you can scroll
> through until you find the topic of interest.
>
> People will eventually sleep when they're tired<g>. There's no way to get
> around it. Lot's of adults have to juggle their sleep schedule to meet their
> work schedule, doctors, nurses, patrolmen, night shifters and swing
> shifters. A healthy sleep schedule will mean something different to each
> person and will probably change several times during one's lifetime. Kids
> who get to experiment a lot at home with sleeping and waking and staying up
> late and staying up round the clock are getting lots of information about
> how sleep or too little sleep makes them feel. You can't really learn good
> sleep habits (whatever that is) by someone telling you how much sleep you
> should have and when it should start and when it should end. You can only
> gain that information by experience. It's a myth that everyone needs the
> same amount of sleep and sleep needs can change depending on hormones,
> season, stress, health, growth, activity...
>
> Find out what your husband means by a good work ethic. My husband thought
> it meant going to work on time every day and doing a good job. The other
> part of what he did was complain a lot about his co workers, his job, his
> boss, his schedule... He thought he was being a good example by going to
> work every day but he was really sending the message that work was horrible.
> Ask your husband to describe to you what a good work ethic is and then pay
> attention to how he talks about work in front of the kids.
>
> People are respectful if they grow up receiving respect. There's no magic
> to it. The reason kids in school have special classes now to *teach* respect
> is because those kids don't receive respect and have no idea of it's value.
> *Teaching* respect won't work, the schools will continue to have problems
> with kids. In your home, where you and your partner respect each other and
> where your kids are treated respectfully, the kid will be able to see the
> value of respect and will have lots of experience. They'll be full of
> respect if you fill them with it. They'll be respect-full <g> and will be
> able to show it to others.
>
> We have family members from different cultural and religious backgrounds so
> we have talked a lot about what respect means to different family members.
>
> Maybe if you talk more with your husband about what good manners look like
> to him and then talk about the ways your kids have and will continue to
> learn about manners he'll see that the kids will be getting guidance from
> you both, all along. We were going to visit some folks we haven't seen in
> awhile and I told Dylan, "They'll expect us to take our shoes off when we go
> in." At home we take our shoes of when we want but not as a matter of
> routine for keeping the floors clean, so I thought he'd want that
> information, and want it before we got there in case he wanted to make a
> choice about which shoes or socks to wear. <g>
>
> Study skills? When people are interested in something they look for all the
> information they want about it. That's natural. You need study skills if
> you're trying to do something you don't really care about. A better goal
> would be to give your kids a life where they're busy doing what they love
> and there'll be little need for study skills. <g> Study skills aren't
> something a person need years of practice at though.. If your kids go to
> college and need to study for a paper they'll be able to do it if the course
> is interesting to them, or important in some way, even if that paper isn't
> about the most interesting thing. Study skills look different for different
> people, too.
>
> Deb Lewis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> ***I think it's a matter of meeting people where they're at too.***
>
> I'm never really sure what that means. <g> If someone is not in
the frame of mind to understand what we're doing I don't try to meet
them where they are I just don't bother with them .<g> A partner is
different though and I think if you have information your partner
needs it's better to give it than withhold it. If you mean we ought
to be patient with partners who don't quite get it yet then I agree.
Our good example and confidence will go a long way toward keeping
peace even if they're never fully persuaded.


Hey Deb,

yes, that's pretty much what I meant by meeting people where they are
at - in terms of someone such as a partner, I think giving them
information that helps to explain and support the approach that makes
sense to you and your child/children. And having a sense of tolerance
and being able to 'let go' of the need to control the external
environment to line up with my internal one. I was instinctively
child-led, attachment parenting with my babies, without knowing that
was I was doing had a name. When I encountered preschool with ds, I
was simply lucky enough to stumble upon one who worked with me, so
school was a huge shock. Had I known about homeschooling before ds
went to school, I wouldn't have bothered. I certainly don't try as
hard to convince everyone about my approach either.






>
> ***Have you always been good about explaining yourself logically***
>
> No, but as an adult I've tried to be honest and not exaggerate and
that helps. The more credibility you have the more likely people are
to consider your opinion.

Yes, I agree there.


>
> ***did you come to unschooling by instinct or logic, do you think?
***
>
> When I held my baby and thought about his immediate future I wanted
something better for him than school. When I started thinking about
learning and started doing some research unschooling made sense.
> I read the John Holt books early on and in those days Growing
Without Schooling was still being published. Somewhere around the
time Dylan was four or five I read an article by Sandra Dodd .
Those things helped. Dylan (ds) was the biggest reason though. I
watched how he did what we did and it was proof to me that he was
learning from living in the world and there was no reason to think
that would change as he got older. And, he didn't want to go to
school. When he was little and other people would talk about him
going to school one day he'd always say he wasn't going. He never
did change his mind about that. <g>

My dd was pretty much the same, thanks to her brother blazing the
trail before her.

Cheers,

Cathy.

>
> Deb Lewis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

elendil722003

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:
>
> ***He questions unschooling as an educational
> approach and a lifestyle. He often wonders how the children will
> learn self-discipline, healthy sleeping habits, a good work ethic,
> respect for others, good manners and study skills, unless they are
> frequently guided. ***
>
> He might like the John Holt books. Would he read something you
recommend? If you read one first and shared bits of it with him
would he read it then?

^^^^^^ He has read some Alfie Kohn recently and enjoyed the NVC
DVD's - he very much prefers short and to the point, backed up by
research. He has a hard time accepting empirical evidence, as he is a
scientist (well, that's waht he says <g>). Kohn is good to give a
more masculine approach. I think John Holt's stuff would appeal if I
can mine out the 'gems'. He doesn't like reading much (dh), so while
I am a voracious reader with fiction and non-fiction of all types on
the go, he doesn't tend to look further than the way he was parented.
In actual fact, he has toned down a lot at my request - he had been
raised with some pretty punitive methods.



>
> Maybe you can help him see that unschooling doesn't mean you don't
offer guidance. Maybe something your saying sounds to him like "let
them do whatever."
>
> I have very frequently guided my son. Lot's when he was little,
less as he got older, but it didn't look like traditional parenting,
it looked like one person helping another person.

^^^^^^ Yes, that's right. Dh often says to me he couldn't have the
amount of patience as I do (which makes me laugh, because I don't
think I'm especially patient. I HAVE learned that going through a
process wholeheartedly to the end takes just as long as trying to
supress or deny a child's reality and usually achieves more learning
for both of us <g> ).


>
> What does your husband mean by self discipline? Does he wonder how
they will learn to brush their teeth every day? Does he wonder how
they'll wake on time for appointments or jobs? What is his worry?
> Look for articles or posts that address his specific concerns. At
Sandra Dodd's website, www.sandradodd.com/unschooling articles are
listed by topic and you might find just the thing there. Joyce
Fetteroll has a really nice website too, www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
same deal, you can scroll through until you find the topic of
interest.
>

^^^^^^^ He means that the parents 'discipline' the child, by
imposing "consequences", with warnings of said consequences, such as
time outs, removing priviledges, etc. This then causes the child
to "get into the habit of doing the right thing". Eventually, they
will transfer this framework internally, to develop "self-control".


> People will eventually sleep when they're tired<g>. There's no way
to get around it. Lot's of adults have to juggle their sleep
schedule to meet their work schedule, doctors, nurses, patrolmen,
night shifters and swing shifters. A healthy sleep schedule will
mean something different to each person and will probably change
several times during one's lifetime. Kids who get to experiment a
lot at home with sleeping and waking and staying up late and staying
up round the clock are getting lots of information about how sleep or
too little sleep makes them feel. You can't really learn good sleep
habits (whatever that is) by someone telling you how much sleep you
should have and when it should start and when it should end. You can
only gain that information by experience. It's a myth that everyone
needs the same amount of sleep and sleep needs can change depending
on hormones, season, stress, health, growth, activity...

^^^^All of which I have seen to be true when dh is not here and the
children regulate their bedtimes in accordance with what they want to
do (or not) the following day. I am constantly amazed and delighted
by how the kids live up to the trust placed in them and this, to me,
is the living proof of an RU lifestyle. But then, I see it and dh,
looking at the same children, doesn't.


>
> Find out what your husband means by a good work ethic. My husband
thought it meant going to work on time every day and doing a good
job. The other part of what he did was complain a lot about his co
workers, his job, his boss, his schedule... He thought he was being a
good example by going to work every day but he was really sending the
message that work was horrible. Ask your husband to describe to you
what a good work ethic is and then pay attention to how he talks
about work in front of the kids.

^^^^^Good idea. I also find dh talks a lot about "getting the boring
stuff over and done with" in relation to chores. He puts out quite a
different vibe when thar's workin' to be done, which I find hard to
adapt to when I have been used to being more relaxed with the kids
and allowing a bit more ebb and flow around tasks and lots of
attention on relationships.


>
> People are respectful if they grow up receiving respect. There's
no magic to it. The reason kids in school have special classes now
to *teach* respect is because those kids don't receive respect and
have no idea of it's value. *Teaching* respect won't work, the
schools will continue to have problems with kids. In your home,
where you and your partner respect each other and where your kids are
treated respectfully, the kid will be able to see the value of
respect and will have lots of experience. They'll be full of respect
if you fill them with it. They'll be respect-full <g> and will be
able to show it to others.

^^^^Yep....

>
> We have family members from different cultural and religious
backgrounds so we have talked a lot about what respect means to
different family members.
>
> Maybe if you talk more with your husband about what good manners
look like to him and then talk about the ways your kids have and will
continue to learn about manners he'll see that the kids will be
getting guidance from you both, all along. We were going to visit
some folks we haven't seen in awhile and I told Dylan, "They'll
expect us to take our shoes off when we go in." At home we take our
shoes of when we want but not as a matter of routine for keeping the
floors clean, so I thought he'd want that information, and want it
before we got there in case he wanted to make a choice about which
shoes or socks to wear. <g>

^^^^Totally agree. The problem is when dh, mostly in relation to his
family, doesn't simply supply this information, but try and convince
the children of it's inherant 'rightness'.

>
> Study skills? When people are interested in something they look
for all the information they want about it. That's natural. You
need study skills if you're trying to do something you don't really
care about. A better goal would be to give your kids a life where
they're busy doing what they love and there'll be little need for
study skills. <g> Study skills aren't something a person need
years of practice at though.. If your kids go to college and need
to study for a paper they'll be able to do it if the course is
interesting to them, or important in some way, even if that paper
isn't about the most interesting thing. Study skills look different
for different people, too.

^^^^Hey, that is one thing that I am reading a lot on and I am hoping
to have a good discussion with dh about self-initiated learning.
Gotta run - overdue for bedtime reading duties..... <g>

Cathy.

>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

rawsomquinn

Greetings all,

thank you for this place to look for RU help. I've incorporated lots
of techniques from the Peabody conference and have spent time to start
unschooling my kids - and the results have been fabulous! Sebastian has
asked to pick up the electric guitar (I said no several years ago on
account of cost, he stopped playing acustic guitar shortly after
that). I said that we could look for one (of course we found a great
used one with little amp) and bought it after sleeping on the idea for
one night. I did ask my husband what he thought: "I don't know!" and
bought it for him. He's thrilled! Rowan, celtic harp for 2 years, and
Sebastian and I, mandolin for 1/2 year, have been playing Christmas
carols in a jam fashion for the past week! ***Husband also joined in
one session with a pennywhistle!!!***

John's post has helped so very much, I am actually going to send it to
husband, we'll see how it goes.

My last comment is mixed - husband is reading Rue's book (thank you!)
and has said "why does everything have to be so emotional? Why can't
you just make them take showers!! They have no problem putting off
showers until the next day for something fun, but why can't they put
off fun for a quick shower? IT's just a shower!" yikes. I did say
that to them this is an emotional issue and that everyone's feelings
need to be respected.

RU is important enough to keep plugging away, but thank you all!

blessings and peace,

Quinn

"If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning" AM




--- In [email protected], "John Cyphers"
<john_cyphers@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am the father of 2 wonderful Unschooled children. My wife has been
> the cart driver in our journey toward unschooling and I am not sure
> if she considers herself completely a RU. She does operate in a very
> similar way.
>

Pamela Sorooshian

I think this is my husband's reaction, too, lots of times. Why? I
think his repertoire of emotions and the intensity of his emotions is
WAY less than mine and our daughters and he honestly thinks we're
making a big deal out of things that should be much simpler.

I've asked him to please accept it that when someone says something
matters to them, then it does. Take them at their word. I pointed out
that to doubt that is to doubt their honesty. He thinks I "made them"
so sensitive and "emotional" by catering to their needs overmuch. In a
sense, he's right. We could have toughened them up - get them used to
not having their needs met so they'd stop trying, for example. But the
cost of that 'toughening up" would have been high.

-pam

On May 31, 2008, at 1:14 PM, rawsomquinn wrote:

> My last comment is mixed - husband is reading Rue's book (thank you!)
> and has said "why does everything have to be so emotional? Why can't
> you just make them take showers!! They have no problem putting off
> showers until the next day for something fun, but why can't they put
> off fun for a quick shower? IT's just a shower!" yikes. I did say
> that to them this is an emotional issue and that everyone's feelings
> need to be respected.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

> > My last comment is mixed - husband is reading Rue's book (thank
you!)and has said "why does everything have to be so emotional? Why
can't you just make them take showers!! ~~


Funny thing just happened...
my dh is reading a little bit of these posts as I sit here. He says
"some of these guys are where I was about 6 or 7 years ago, and then I
just gave up and they'll give up too at some point."

I laughed out loud. :)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 31, 2008, at 7:09 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> Funny thing just happened...
> my dh is reading a little bit of these posts as I sit here. He says
> "some of these guys are where I was about 6 or 7 years ago, and then I
> just gave up and they'll give up too at some point."

Ha - made me laugh too. My dh would say the exact same thing if I read
these posts to him. He also uses the words "gave up" - I really wish
that wasn't how he thought of it, but I think it is pretty accurate to
say that I was so completely and totally convinced that unschooling
was the best thing for our kids that there was no way I could NOT
unschool. So I'm sure it was clear to him that trying to persuade me
not to would have been like trying to hold back the ocean tide. He
didn't try very hard, anyway. Mostly just made a few comments here and
there, over the years, that indicated he really wasn't sold on it.
Over those years, his comments got to be mostly made in jest, and now
he openly jokes - "Well, if you'd had a DECENT education, you'd KNOW
where xyz is on the map." Its a joke - he realizes that our kids know
a LOT. He knows many schooled kids because he's coached soccer for
years. He is aware of how little they learn in school and what their
attitude toward learning is. He's not sorry our kids are different.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~So I'm sure it was clear to him that trying to persuade me
not to would have been like trying to hold back the ocean tide.~~

Yeah, that's pretty much what he realized at some point.:)
It cracks me up though, because he was SUCH a natural unschooler
himself. Talked like it, acted like it but just couldn't apply the
trust to his kids all those years ago.

I bugged him about the "gave up" thing even though he was smirking and
laughing when he said it, because he had a couple of times where he
came to me with these huge epiphanies about how he was GETTING IT.
Well, he did get a lot of it. He got the education part a Looonnggg
time ago. It was all the parenting stuff that took longer.

He did "give up" about the chores issue which he basically defers to
me because he thinks a chore list would be great. That's his last
hold-out where we disagree somewhat. The rest of it is easy now. Thank
goodness.

I'll take "giving up" over what we had before though.;)

Ren
learninginfreedom.om

Jodi Bezzola

I'm not sure how many of you watched the video that someone recently posted here? It was about kids and food. Very confirming to me. Anyway, I posted the video on a local AP list I'm on, as well as a little blurb about the freedom we give our girls around food, and now some moms are asking for more resources, reading, etc. about the topic. Aside from the unschooling lists, which I don't think is really what they're looking for, does anyone have suggestions? I would love to encourage this way of thinking for these moms and their kids, but I don't want to scare them off either!

Thanks,
Jodi



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