Consequences (was potty training)
Carron Armstrong
Thank you, Joyce and Kelly and Ren and everyone else who participated in
this discussion. I really appreciate all your thoughts. I don't disagree
with anything anyone has said, but I think I have a fundamental difference
of opinion with many of you regarding "consequences".
I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I think
we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from imposed
consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed consequences
constantly. The natural consequence of speeding might be an auto accident,
but I'm more likely to get a speeding ticket (an imposed consequence) than
suffer an auto accident. A more "unschooling" type consequence may be that
my son's college choices (if we wants to go to college) might be curtailed
because he chooses not to study algebra.
I struggle with the question of choices and consequences all the time.
Here's a situation a friend of mine faced. I don't know what I would have
done. My friend Elly was at a gathering of unschoolers some time ago. She
was invited to spend the weekend with a family she and I were
both acquainted with. There were three other families there whom she didn't
know before that weekend. Those families professed to be radical
unschoolers. Our acquantance is about as radical as they come.
Something happened that weekend that really disturbed my friend. In the
early evening on Saturday the 15yo daughter of our acquaintance asked her
dad for a joint. He went into the bedroom where he kept his stuff, and
brought her out a joint. The 15yo thanked her dad and went to join the
other teens. Elly's son told her that the 15yo smoked it on the porch
and offered it to the other teens there, who declined. Please keep in mind
that we know this teen and her mom, but we hardly know the dad.
The way my friend describes it, once she had gathered her wits, she kinda
lit into the guy. She didn't so much question his parenting as his judgment
in putting everyone there at risk. He defended himself by saying that he'd
rather his daughter smoke pot under his watchful eye than away from
home. My friend said, well you're not at home now (they were in a rented
beach house) and how dare you put us all at risk of being hauled to jail.
He said, you're overreacting -- nobody's going to jail.
Elly was at a loss as to what to do. They left the next morning. I don't
know what I would have done. I haven't been able to look at this family the
same way since then. I'm happy that my son has never socialized with their
teen daughter. Have any of you encountered a situation like that?
Carron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this discussion. I really appreciate all your thoughts. I don't disagree
with anything anyone has said, but I think I have a fundamental difference
of opinion with many of you regarding "consequences".
I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I think
we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from imposed
consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed consequences
constantly. The natural consequence of speeding might be an auto accident,
but I'm more likely to get a speeding ticket (an imposed consequence) than
suffer an auto accident. A more "unschooling" type consequence may be that
my son's college choices (if we wants to go to college) might be curtailed
because he chooses not to study algebra.
I struggle with the question of choices and consequences all the time.
Here's a situation a friend of mine faced. I don't know what I would have
done. My friend Elly was at a gathering of unschoolers some time ago. She
was invited to spend the weekend with a family she and I were
both acquainted with. There were three other families there whom she didn't
know before that weekend. Those families professed to be radical
unschoolers. Our acquantance is about as radical as they come.
Something happened that weekend that really disturbed my friend. In the
early evening on Saturday the 15yo daughter of our acquaintance asked her
dad for a joint. He went into the bedroom where he kept his stuff, and
brought her out a joint. The 15yo thanked her dad and went to join the
other teens. Elly's son told her that the 15yo smoked it on the porch
and offered it to the other teens there, who declined. Please keep in mind
that we know this teen and her mom, but we hardly know the dad.
The way my friend describes it, once she had gathered her wits, she kinda
lit into the guy. She didn't so much question his parenting as his judgment
in putting everyone there at risk. He defended himself by saying that he'd
rather his daughter smoke pot under his watchful eye than away from
home. My friend said, well you're not at home now (they were in a rented
beach house) and how dare you put us all at risk of being hauled to jail.
He said, you're overreacting -- nobody's going to jail.
Elly was at a loss as to what to do. They left the next morning. I don't
know what I would have done. I haven't been able to look at this family the
same way since then. I'm happy that my son has never socialized with their
teen daughter. Have any of you encountered a situation like that?
Carron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~ Elly's son told her that the 15yo smoked it on the porch
I think it IS irresponsible to put others in an illegal situation
without their consent!
I know some unschooled teens that have tried pot, or use it but they
would never just assume someone else is ok with it. They're very
respectful of other people's boundaries.
I personally think pot should be legal, yet I don't smoke it. I have
very open conversations with my kids about it and I'm pretty sure they
would talk to me if they chose to use. However, just because we are
open about discussions and ideas and philosophies, does NOT mean I'd
risk my family be providing it!
There are very real (though arbitrary) consequences which could affect
other people in ways they aren't willing to risk. I could have social
services interfere with my freedoms related to my other children
should something happen. I certainly don't think it's respectful for
anyone to assume another person is willing to take that risk.
Why would the teen NEED to have a joint when others are around? Seems
they would keep that more private unless they're trying to flaunt it.
"See how cool we are" seems to be the message.
~~I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I
think we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from
imposed consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed
consequences constantly. ~~
I agree.
I think the point is, that parents don't need to ADD to the arbitrary
consequences that DO happen in society. Children will encounter those
situations and be better equipped to make good choices for themselves
if they've NOT had a bunch of arbitrary crap dumped on them.
Laws can be arbitrary. My family doesn't have to aid and abet this
condition.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> and offered it to the other teens there, who declined. Please keepin mind that we know this teen and her mom, but we hardly know the dad.~~
I think it IS irresponsible to put others in an illegal situation
without their consent!
I know some unschooled teens that have tried pot, or use it but they
would never just assume someone else is ok with it. They're very
respectful of other people's boundaries.
I personally think pot should be legal, yet I don't smoke it. I have
very open conversations with my kids about it and I'm pretty sure they
would talk to me if they chose to use. However, just because we are
open about discussions and ideas and philosophies, does NOT mean I'd
risk my family be providing it!
There are very real (though arbitrary) consequences which could affect
other people in ways they aren't willing to risk. I could have social
services interfere with my freedoms related to my other children
should something happen. I certainly don't think it's respectful for
anyone to assume another person is willing to take that risk.
Why would the teen NEED to have a joint when others are around? Seems
they would keep that more private unless they're trying to flaunt it.
"See how cool we are" seems to be the message.
~~I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I
think we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from
imposed consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed
consequences constantly. ~~
I agree.
I think the point is, that parents don't need to ADD to the arbitrary
consequences that DO happen in society. Children will encounter those
situations and be better equipped to make good choices for themselves
if they've NOT had a bunch of arbitrary crap dumped on them.
Laws can be arbitrary. My family doesn't have to aid and abet this
condition.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 14, 2008, at 1:19 AM, Carron Armstrong wrote:
as natural consequences. The parent and child partnership don't have
control over those.
I would use the phrase imposed consequences on those a parent does
have control over but makes or allows to happen anyway as a way to
change a child's behavior.
In conventional parenting, parents are encouraged to let kids suffer
the consequences so they'll learn. What that ends up meaning is the
parent can see something that will upset the child coming but does
nothing to avert it.
For example, a parent sees a child has left his bike out again and
it's about to rain and lets the bike get rained on to teach the child
what happens so they can learn to put their bike away.
Or the milk gets left out again and Mom gets mad and blows up as a
way to teach the kids that the consequence of leaving the milk out is
that mom isn't happy.
But kids are naturally more oblivious to their environment. They're
thinking in the moment because that's how their brains work right
now. Consequences won't mature their brains. Only time will. But in
the meantime parents can make their lives miserable with the mistaken
belief that the kids need taught.
think much of his reasoning either at a rented place or at home. What
he's doing is illegal. He and she could end up in jail.
I'm sure Kelly will be along soon to tell her experience with her son
and pot. If she's busy you can type "cameron pot smoke" into the
message search in the archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/messages
She gave him information to help with his decision rather than as a
roundabout way of saying no: It's illegal and he could be arrested.
(Probably mentioned what a record could do to future job prospects.)
If he does it at home she and Ben could be arrested and the fall out
would affect his younger brother. Those are real consequences of
actions.
Joyce
> The natural consequence of speeding might be an auto accident,*In terms of mindful parenting*, all the ones you listed I would see
> but I'm more likely to get a speeding ticket (an imposed
> consequence) than
> suffer an auto accident. A more "unschooling" type consequence may
> be that
> my son's college choices (if we wants to go to college) might be
> curtailed
> because he chooses not to study algebra.
as natural consequences. The parent and child partnership don't have
control over those.
I would use the phrase imposed consequences on those a parent does
have control over but makes or allows to happen anyway as a way to
change a child's behavior.
In conventional parenting, parents are encouraged to let kids suffer
the consequences so they'll learn. What that ends up meaning is the
parent can see something that will upset the child coming but does
nothing to avert it.
For example, a parent sees a child has left his bike out again and
it's about to rain and lets the bike get rained on to teach the child
what happens so they can learn to put their bike away.
Or the milk gets left out again and Mom gets mad and blows up as a
way to teach the kids that the consequence of leaving the milk out is
that mom isn't happy.
But kids are naturally more oblivious to their environment. They're
thinking in the moment because that's how their brains work right
now. Consequences won't mature their brains. Only time will. But in
the meantime parents can make their lives miserable with the mistaken
belief that the kids need taught.
> He defended himself by saying that he'dYour friend was right, the guy was wrong. The law isn't going to
> rather his daughter smoke pot under his watchful eye than away from
> home. My friend said, well you're not at home now (they were in a
> rented
> beach house) and how dare you put us all at risk of being hauled to
> jail.
> He said, you're overreacting -- nobody's going to jail.
think much of his reasoning either at a rented place or at home. What
he's doing is illegal. He and she could end up in jail.
I'm sure Kelly will be along soon to tell her experience with her son
and pot. If she's busy you can type "cameron pot smoke" into the
message search in the archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/messages
She gave him information to help with his decision rather than as a
roundabout way of saying no: It's illegal and he could be arrested.
(Probably mentioned what a record could do to future job prospects.)
If he does it at home she and Ben could be arrested and the fall out
would affect his younger brother. Those are real consequences of
actions.
Joyce
Jodi Bezzola
~~In conventional parenting, parents are encouraged to let kids suffer
the consequences so they'll learn. What that ends up meaning is the
parent can see something that will upset the child coming but does
nothing to avert it.~~
SO true! We were out for dinner recently with my in laws. Jade saw others at the table sprinkle salt on their food, so she decided to copy them, and when she turned the shaker upside down tons of salt poured onto her noodles. I reached to take them when she told me what happened, and my fil said 'leave it, maybe she'll learn a lesson'. Even before living how we are living it would not have occurred to me to let her eat a mouthful of salt knowing how horrible it would be. It just seems so meaningless and cruel to me to see something coming that will upset them and just do nothing.
~~But kids are naturally more oblivious to their environment. They're
thinking in the moment because that's how their brains work right
now. Consequences won't mature their brains. Only time will. But in
the meantime parents can make their lives miserable with the mistaken
belief that the kids need taught.~~
I am definitely filing this away for the next in law visit. "consequences won't mature their brains, only time will"...another wise Joyce quotable...thanks Joyce. I so love to understand better the timeline of their maturing brains. In the salt situation what irks me so much is that my fil wouldn't think of 'letting' one of his friends inadvertantly take a mouthful of salt, but when it's his granddaughter, in his mind it's a perfectly acceptable way to 'teach her a lesson', argh! It does help me understand and have more compassion for my husband knowing he was raised by this man.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the consequences so they'll learn. What that ends up meaning is the
parent can see something that will upset the child coming but does
nothing to avert it.~~
SO true! We were out for dinner recently with my in laws. Jade saw others at the table sprinkle salt on their food, so she decided to copy them, and when she turned the shaker upside down tons of salt poured onto her noodles. I reached to take them when she told me what happened, and my fil said 'leave it, maybe she'll learn a lesson'. Even before living how we are living it would not have occurred to me to let her eat a mouthful of salt knowing how horrible it would be. It just seems so meaningless and cruel to me to see something coming that will upset them and just do nothing.
~~But kids are naturally more oblivious to their environment. They're
thinking in the moment because that's how their brains work right
now. Consequences won't mature their brains. Only time will. But in
the meantime parents can make their lives miserable with the mistaken
belief that the kids need taught.~~
I am definitely filing this away for the next in law visit. "consequences won't mature their brains, only time will"...another wise Joyce quotable...thanks Joyce. I so love to understand better the timeline of their maturing brains. In the salt situation what irks me so much is that my fil wouldn't think of 'letting' one of his friends inadvertantly take a mouthful of salt, but when it's his granddaughter, in his mind it's a perfectly acceptable way to 'teach her a lesson', argh! It does help me understand and have more compassion for my husband knowing he was raised by this man.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
I don't disagree
with anything anyone has said, but I think I have a fundamental
difference
of opinion with many of you regarding "consequences".
-=-=-=-=
Maybe. Are you happy with that opinion, or are you interested in
questioning further?
I mean: LOTS of folks come here thinking that they don't want to change
their thinking---and yet do anyway. <G>
-=--=-=-
I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I
think
we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from imposed
consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed consequences
constantly. The natural consequence of speeding might be an auto
accident,
but I'm more likely to get a speeding ticket (an imposed consequence)
than
suffer an auto accident. A more "unschooling" type consequence may be
that
my son's college choices (if we wants to go to college) might be
curtailed
because he chooses not to study algebra.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Consequences are all around us. But we don't NEED to have arbitrary
ones imposed on us by our parents. There *really* are enough in
day-to-day living.
Not getting into college is NOT a consequence of not studying algebra.
Having to take a remedial math class IN college *may* be, however.
Depends on the kid and the college and the major and...lots of things.
But it's NOT a "natural" OR necessarily an *imposed* consequence.
If we are our children's partners and not their adversaries, we can
help them work to avoid consequences and to work *with* consequences.
We really shouldn't be making some up in order to teach lessons.
--=-=-=-
I struggle with the question of choices and consequences all the time.
Here's a situation a friend of mine faced. I don't know what I would
have
done. My friend Elly was at a gathering of unschoolers some time ago.
She
was invited to spend the weekend with a family she and I were
both acquainted with. There were three other families there whom she
didn't
know before that weekend. Those families professed to be radical
unschoolers. Our acquantance is about as radical as they come.
Something happened that weekend that really disturbed my friend. In the
early evening on Saturday the 15yo daughter of our acquaintance asked
her
dad for a joint. He went into the bedroom where he kept his stuff, and
brought her out a joint. The 15yo thanked her dad and went to join the
other teens. Elly's son told her that the 15yo smoked it on the porch
and offered it to the other teens there, who declined. Please keep in
mind
that we know this teen and her mom, but we hardly know the dad.
The way my friend describes it, once she had gathered her wits, she
kinda
lit into the guy. She didn't so much question his parenting as his
judgment
in putting everyone there at risk. He defended himself by saying that
he'd
rather his daughter smoke pot under his watchful eye than away from
home. My friend said, well you're not at home now (they were in a
rented
beach house) and how dare you put us all at risk of being hauled to
jail.
He said, you're overreacting -- nobody's going to jail.
Elly was at a loss as to what to do. They left the next morning. I
don't
know what I would have done. I haven't been able to look at this
family the
same way since then. I'm happy that my son has never socialized with
their
teen daughter. Have any of you encountered a situation like that?
-=-=-=-=-
Nope. But I have plenty of pot experience with a teen. <g>
Basically the dad was right in that "no one's going to jail."
Meaning---he lucked out that time. And probably had many, many times
before. And probably *will* many, many times in the future. Seems like
a common happening at their home. Taking that attitude, though, *could*
risk having one of the irate parents there sending the cops to his
house! He might regret that decision one day.
Although I *do* think marijuana should be legal (thanks to my son's
research), I have never smoked pot---and probably never will. I do
recognize that this dad certainly has the *right* to believe as he does
(under his watchful eye and all)---but I have HUGE problems with his
lack of respect for others there who don't share his beliefs.
Cameron and I spent many hours talking about his pot smoking. I *knew*
I couldn't stop him (and if any of you think you *can* stop your kids
from doing anything they set their minds to---think again!), but we
needed to have a common understanding of what it means to purposefully
break laws and what kind of situation that could put our family in. It
was a HOT topic for several years. And one I've written extensively
about on this and several other lists.
*I* would have lit into this guy too, because he wasn't taking *US*
into consideration.
I wouldn't have a problem letting my child associate with the daughter.
I *would* ask her how she feels about putting others who don't share
her beliefs at risk. I would try to understand *her* viewpoint. To me,
her father's a lost cause, but I would like to know where *she* stands
and whether she'd be willing to listen to what bothers me about the
laissez faire attitude her father displayed that night. My guess is
that she was trying to "impress" her friends. But she could very well
share her dad's views.
I think that, when sharing lodging, we need to be cognizant of the
needs/wants/desires of *all* present. Imposing something illegal could
very well make others uncomfortable. And discomfort is not something I
choose to cause my guests. I try to make my home (and rental properties
<g>) comfortable for *all* present. This dad doesn't share my views on
how to make that happen.
You can read more about my struggle (or lack of one) with pot in the
archives here.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
I don't disagree
with anything anyone has said, but I think I have a fundamental
difference
of opinion with many of you regarding "consequences".
-=-=-=-=
Maybe. Are you happy with that opinion, or are you interested in
questioning further?
I mean: LOTS of folks come here thinking that they don't want to change
their thinking---and yet do anyway. <G>
-=--=-=-
I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I
think
we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from imposed
consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed consequences
constantly. The natural consequence of speeding might be an auto
accident,
but I'm more likely to get a speeding ticket (an imposed consequence)
than
suffer an auto accident. A more "unschooling" type consequence may be
that
my son's college choices (if we wants to go to college) might be
curtailed
because he chooses not to study algebra.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Consequences are all around us. But we don't NEED to have arbitrary
ones imposed on us by our parents. There *really* are enough in
day-to-day living.
Not getting into college is NOT a consequence of not studying algebra.
Having to take a remedial math class IN college *may* be, however.
Depends on the kid and the college and the major and...lots of things.
But it's NOT a "natural" OR necessarily an *imposed* consequence.
If we are our children's partners and not their adversaries, we can
help them work to avoid consequences and to work *with* consequences.
We really shouldn't be making some up in order to teach lessons.
--=-=-=-
I struggle with the question of choices and consequences all the time.
Here's a situation a friend of mine faced. I don't know what I would
have
done. My friend Elly was at a gathering of unschoolers some time ago.
She
was invited to spend the weekend with a family she and I were
both acquainted with. There were three other families there whom she
didn't
know before that weekend. Those families professed to be radical
unschoolers. Our acquantance is about as radical as they come.
Something happened that weekend that really disturbed my friend. In the
early evening on Saturday the 15yo daughter of our acquaintance asked
her
dad for a joint. He went into the bedroom where he kept his stuff, and
brought her out a joint. The 15yo thanked her dad and went to join the
other teens. Elly's son told her that the 15yo smoked it on the porch
and offered it to the other teens there, who declined. Please keep in
mind
that we know this teen and her mom, but we hardly know the dad.
The way my friend describes it, once she had gathered her wits, she
kinda
lit into the guy. She didn't so much question his parenting as his
judgment
in putting everyone there at risk. He defended himself by saying that
he'd
rather his daughter smoke pot under his watchful eye than away from
home. My friend said, well you're not at home now (they were in a
rented
beach house) and how dare you put us all at risk of being hauled to
jail.
He said, you're overreacting -- nobody's going to jail.
Elly was at a loss as to what to do. They left the next morning. I
don't
know what I would have done. I haven't been able to look at this
family the
same way since then. I'm happy that my son has never socialized with
their
teen daughter. Have any of you encountered a situation like that?
-=-=-=-=-
Nope. But I have plenty of pot experience with a teen. <g>
Basically the dad was right in that "no one's going to jail."
Meaning---he lucked out that time. And probably had many, many times
before. And probably *will* many, many times in the future. Seems like
a common happening at their home. Taking that attitude, though, *could*
risk having one of the irate parents there sending the cops to his
house! He might regret that decision one day.
Although I *do* think marijuana should be legal (thanks to my son's
research), I have never smoked pot---and probably never will. I do
recognize that this dad certainly has the *right* to believe as he does
(under his watchful eye and all)---but I have HUGE problems with his
lack of respect for others there who don't share his beliefs.
Cameron and I spent many hours talking about his pot smoking. I *knew*
I couldn't stop him (and if any of you think you *can* stop your kids
from doing anything they set their minds to---think again!), but we
needed to have a common understanding of what it means to purposefully
break laws and what kind of situation that could put our family in. It
was a HOT topic for several years. And one I've written extensively
about on this and several other lists.
*I* would have lit into this guy too, because he wasn't taking *US*
into consideration.
I wouldn't have a problem letting my child associate with the daughter.
I *would* ask her how she feels about putting others who don't share
her beliefs at risk. I would try to understand *her* viewpoint. To me,
her father's a lost cause, but I would like to know where *she* stands
and whether she'd be willing to listen to what bothers me about the
laissez faire attitude her father displayed that night. My guess is
that she was trying to "impress" her friends. But she could very well
share her dad's views.
I think that, when sharing lodging, we need to be cognizant of the
needs/wants/desires of *all* present. Imposing something illegal could
very well make others uncomfortable. And discomfort is not something I
choose to cause my guests. I try to make my home (and rental properties
<g>) comfortable for *all* present. This dad doesn't share my views on
how to make that happen.
You can read more about my struggle (or lack of one) with pot in the
archives here.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Carron Armstrong
Kelly, I very much appreciate your thoughts. I don't have a major problem
with pot. I do have a problem with this family causing discomfort and
putting others at risk. My kids and I have often talked about risks
associated with choices we make, including the choice to use tobacco,
alcohol and drugs -- legal and illegal. For instance, the choice to drink
enough to impair judgment, which might lead to making a foolish choice such
as driving a vehicle or engaging in other dangerous behavior. And, we also
talk about the difference between risk to ourselves and risk to others.
Carron
with pot. I do have a problem with this family causing discomfort and
putting others at risk. My kids and I have often talked about risks
associated with choices we make, including the choice to use tobacco,
alcohol and drugs -- legal and illegal. For instance, the choice to drink
enough to impair judgment, which might lead to making a foolish choice such
as driving a vehicle or engaging in other dangerous behavior. And, we also
talk about the difference between risk to ourselves and risk to others.
Carron
On 5/15/08, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@... <carronna%40gmail.com>>
>
> I don't disagree
> with anything anyone has said, but I think I have a fundamental
> difference
> of opinion with many of you regarding "consequences".
>
> -=-=-=-=
>
> Maybe. Are you happy with that opinion, or are you interested in
> questioning further?
>
> I mean: LOTS of folks come here thinking that they don't want to change
> their thinking---and yet do anyway. <G>
>
> -=--=-=-
>
> I see consequences, both natural and imposed, and something everyone
> experiences. All of our actions produce consequences of some type. I
> think
> we learn more effectively from natural consequences than from imposed
> consequences, but as adults, we're exposed to imposed consequences
> constantly. The natural consequence of speeding might be an auto
> accident,
> but I'm more likely to get a speeding ticket (an imposed consequence)
> than
> suffer an auto accident. A more "unschooling" type consequence may be
> that
> my son's college choices (if we wants to go to college) might be
> curtailed
> because he chooses not to study algebra.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Consequences are all around us. But we don't NEED to have arbitrary
> ones imposed on us by our parents. There *really* are enough in
> day-to-day living.
>
> Not getting into college is NOT a consequence of not studying algebra.
> Having to take a remedial math class IN college *may* be, however.
> Depends on the kid and the college and the major and...lots of things.
> But it's NOT a "natural" OR necessarily an *imposed* consequence.
>
> If we are our children's partners and not their adversaries, we can
> help them work to avoid consequences and to work *with* consequences.
> We really shouldn't be making some up in order to teach lessons.
>
> --=-=-=-
>
> I struggle with the question of choices and consequences all the time.
> Here's a situation a friend of mine faced. I don't know what I would
> have
> done. My friend Elly was at a gathering of unschoolers some time ago.
> She
> was invited to spend the weekend with a family she and I were
> both acquainted with. There were three other families there whom she
> didn't
> know before that weekend. Those families professed to be radical
> unschoolers. Our acquantance is about as radical as they come.
>
> Something happened that weekend that really disturbed my friend. In the
> early evening on Saturday the 15yo daughter of our acquaintance asked
> her
> dad for a joint. He went into the bedroom where he kept his stuff, and
> brought her out a joint. The 15yo thanked her dad and went to join the
> other teens. Elly's son told her that the 15yo smoked it on the porch
> and offered it to the other teens there, who declined. Please keep in
> mind
> that we know this teen and her mom, but we hardly know the dad.
>
> The way my friend describes it, once she had gathered her wits, she
> kinda
> lit into the guy. She didn't so much question his parenting as his
> judgment
> in putting everyone there at risk. He defended himself by saying that
> he'd
> rather his daughter smoke pot under his watchful eye than away from
> home. My friend said, well you're not at home now (they were in a
> rented
> beach house) and how dare you put us all at risk of being hauled to
> jail.
> He said, you're overreacting -- nobody's going to jail.
>
> Elly was at a loss as to what to do. They left the next morning. I
> don't
> know what I would have done. I haven't been able to look at this
> family the
> same way since then. I'm happy that my son has never socialized with
> their
> teen daughter. Have any of you encountered a situation like that?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Nope. But I have plenty of pot experience with a teen. <g>
>
> Basically the dad was right in that "no one's going to jail."
> Meaning---he lucked out that time. And probably had many, many times
> before. And probably *will* many, many times in the future. Seems like
> a common happening at their home. Taking that attitude, though, *could*
> risk having one of the irate parents there sending the cops to his
> house! He might regret that decision one day.
>
> Although I *do* think marijuana should be legal (thanks to my son's
> research), I have never smoked pot---and probably never will. I do
> recognize that this dad certainly has the *right* to believe as he does
> (under his watchful eye and all)---but I have HUGE problems with his
> lack of respect for others there who don't share his beliefs.
>
> Cameron and I spent many hours talking about his pot smoking. I *knew*
> I couldn't stop him (and if any of you think you *can* stop your kids
> from doing anything they set their minds to---think again!), but we
> needed to have a common understanding of what it means to purposefully
> break laws and what kind of situation that could put our family in. It
> was a HOT topic for several years. And one I've written extensively
> about on this and several other lists.
>
> *I* would have lit into this guy too, because he wasn't taking *US*
> into consideration.
>
> I wouldn't have a problem letting my child associate with the daughter.
> I *would* ask her how she feels about putting others who don't share
> her beliefs at risk. I would try to understand *her* viewpoint. To me,
> her father's a lost cause, but I would like to know where *she* stands
> and whether she'd be willing to listen to what bothers me about the
> laissez faire attitude her father displayed that night. My guess is
> that she was trying to "impress" her friends. But she could very well
> share her dad's views.
>
> I think that, when sharing lodging, we need to be cognizant of the
> needs/wants/desires of *all* present. Imposing something illegal could
> very well make others uncomfortable. And discomfort is not something I
> choose to cause my guests. I try to make my home (and rental properties
> <g>) comfortable for *all* present. This dad doesn't share my views on
> how to make that happen.
>
> You can read more about my struggle (or lack of one) with pot in the
> archives here.
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org<http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
Kelly, I very much appreciate your thoughts. I don't have a major
problem
with pot. I do have a problem with this family causing discomfort and
putting others at risk.
-=-=-=-=-
I do too. This would have been very unacceptable to me, and I would
have told him so. But...I'm not shy in letting folks know how I feel.
<G>
-==-=-==-=-
My kids and I have often talked about risks
associated with choices we make, including the choice to use tobacco,
alcohol and drugs -- legal and illegal. For instance, the choice to
drink
enough to impair judgment, which might lead to making a foolish choice
such
as driving a vehicle or engaging in other dangerous behavior. And, we
also
talk about the difference between risk to ourselves and risk to others.
-=-=-=-=-
We do too. But MOST important is that they know that if they *do*
choose to swim in these waters, *I* am THERE to help them navigate.
I won't make them sit in a jail cell overnight to teach them a lesson.
I want them to KNOW that they can call me *any* time for *any* reason.
I'm happy to clean up their messes.
Safety is of UTMOST importance. Going "against my wishes" does NOT take
precedence over their comfort and safety. EVER.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
Kelly, I very much appreciate your thoughts. I don't have a major
problem
with pot. I do have a problem with this family causing discomfort and
putting others at risk.
-=-=-=-=-
I do too. This would have been very unacceptable to me, and I would
have told him so. But...I'm not shy in letting folks know how I feel.
<G>
-==-=-==-=-
My kids and I have often talked about risks
associated with choices we make, including the choice to use tobacco,
alcohol and drugs -- legal and illegal. For instance, the choice to
drink
enough to impair judgment, which might lead to making a foolish choice
such
as driving a vehicle or engaging in other dangerous behavior. And, we
also
talk about the difference between risk to ourselves and risk to others.
-=-=-=-=-
We do too. But MOST important is that they know that if they *do*
choose to swim in these waters, *I* am THERE to help them navigate.
I won't make them sit in a jail cell overnight to teach them a lesson.
I want them to KNOW that they can call me *any* time for *any* reason.
I'm happy to clean up their messes.
Safety is of UTMOST importance. Going "against my wishes" does NOT take
precedence over their comfort and safety. EVER.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Maisha Khalfani
Im also of the mindset of legalizing marijuana :)
When I was a child both of my parents smoked weed and regular cigarettes. I
didnt even know marijuana was a drug until I was 8 years old (rather an
illegal drug). I just knew that I liked the smell of weed better than the
other cigarettes.
My dad stopped when I was around 10 all smoking. My mom still smokes
cigarettes and usually rolls a joint in the morning and one in the evening.
My gift-daughter smokes weed from time to time. She may be home this
summer. When shes here well talk about the law and such. Im sure weve
talked about it before, but we may need a refresher.
I am adamant about no smoking in the house. Its bad for the air and asthma
runs in my family. Two of my children have already shown symptoms of it.
Id prefer not to add to their breathing issues. Rohana understands that,
and doesnt smoke inside of the house. I appreciate that respect.
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
When a big kid hits a little kid on the playground, we call him a bully;
five years later he punches a woman for her wallet and is called a mugger;
later still, when he slugs a fellow worker who insults him, he is called a
troublemaker, but when he becomes a father and hits his tiresome,
disobedient or disrespectful child, we call him a disciplinarian. Why is
this rung on a ladder of interpersonal violence regarded so differently from
the rest? ~ Penelope Leach
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I was a child both of my parents smoked weed and regular cigarettes. I
didnt even know marijuana was a drug until I was 8 years old (rather an
illegal drug). I just knew that I liked the smell of weed better than the
other cigarettes.
My dad stopped when I was around 10 all smoking. My mom still smokes
cigarettes and usually rolls a joint in the morning and one in the evening.
My gift-daughter smokes weed from time to time. She may be home this
summer. When shes here well talk about the law and such. Im sure weve
talked about it before, but we may need a refresher.
I am adamant about no smoking in the house. Its bad for the air and asthma
runs in my family. Two of my children have already shown symptoms of it.
Id prefer not to add to their breathing issues. Rohana understands that,
and doesnt smoke inside of the house. I appreciate that respect.
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
When a big kid hits a little kid on the playground, we call him a bully;
five years later he punches a woman for her wallet and is called a mugger;
later still, when he slugs a fellow worker who insults him, he is called a
troublemaker, but when he becomes a father and hits his tiresome,
disobedient or disrespectful child, we call him a disciplinarian. Why is
this rung on a ladder of interpersonal violence regarded so differently from
the rest? ~ Penelope Leach
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
We're heading out of town this weekend---going to Peabody , MA for the
NEunschooling Conference and to visit friends for a couple of weeks.
I just want to wish you and Jabari the best this weekend at
Retrouvaille.
It won't be easy---and it may not end with the results you expect. But
you will get out of it exactly what you put into it!
Best of luck!
Contact me when you get home! I'll have my laptop and cell phone with
me.
~Kelly
NEunschooling Conference and to visit friends for a couple of weeks.
I just want to wish you and Jabari the best this weekend at
Retrouvaille.
It won't be easy---and it may not end with the results you expect. But
you will get out of it exactly what you put into it!
Best of luck!
Contact me when you get home! I'll have my laptop and cell phone with
me.
~Kelly
[email protected]
Damn. Sorry---that was supposed to go privately. I apologize!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
We're heading out of town this weekend---going to Peabody , MA for the
NEunschooling Conference and to visit friends for a couple of weeks.
I just want to wish you and Jabari the best this weekend at
Retrouvaille.
It won't be easy---and it may not end with the results you expect. But
you will get out of it exactly what you put into it!
Best of luck!
Contact me when you get home! I'll have my laptop and cell phone with
me.
~Kelly
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
We're heading out of town this weekend---going to Peabody , MA for the
NEunschooling Conference and to visit friends for a couple of weeks.
I just want to wish you and Jabari the best this weekend at
Retrouvaille.
It won't be easy---and it may not end with the results you expect. But
you will get out of it exactly what you put into it!
Best of luck!
Contact me when you get home! I'll have my laptop and cell phone with
me.
~Kelly
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Maisha Khalfani
Lol its okay.
I see were both up late .or early depending on how you look at it :)
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
When a big kid hits a little kid on the playground, we call him a bully;
five years later he punches a woman for her wallet and is called a mugger;
later still, when he slugs a fellow worker who insults him, he is called a
troublemaker, but when he becomes a father and hits his tiresome,
disobedient or disrespectful child, we call him a disciplinarian. Why is
this rung on a ladder of interpersonal violence regarded so differently from
the rest? ~ Penelope Leach
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] this weekend
Damn. Sorry---that was supposed to go privately. I apologize!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I see were both up late .or early depending on how you look at it :)
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
When a big kid hits a little kid on the playground, we call him a bully;
five years later he punches a woman for her wallet and is called a mugger;
later still, when he slugs a fellow worker who insults him, he is called a
troublemaker, but when he becomes a father and hits his tiresome,
disobedient or disrespectful child, we call him a disciplinarian. Why is
this rung on a ladder of interpersonal violence regarded so differently from
the rest? ~ Penelope Leach
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] this weekend
Damn. Sorry---that was supposed to go privately. I apologize!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
~~~ I won't make them sit in a jail cell overnight to teach them a lesson.
I want them to KNOW that they can call me *any* time for *any* reason. ~
I've said this same thing with one further addition: Both my spouse and I have government jobs that state very strictly, that we CAN NOT bale someone out of jail ever, for any reason, or we face being fired. My spouse would be more closely watched then I. My 18yo has known this for years and she also knows that I would come bale her out anyway. I'd prefer if she didn't put me in that position.
So far she hasn't. I *feel* that is her being respectful to herself and us for avoiding activities that could find us in that situation. She is also aware that jail time *could* prevent her from her current employment goals. She's working on becoming a Firefighter/EMT.
Is that what you mean about *respecting others needs?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I want them to KNOW that they can call me *any* time for *any* reason. ~
I've said this same thing with one further addition: Both my spouse and I have government jobs that state very strictly, that we CAN NOT bale someone out of jail ever, for any reason, or we face being fired. My spouse would be more closely watched then I. My 18yo has known this for years and she also knows that I would come bale her out anyway. I'd prefer if she didn't put me in that position.
So far she hasn't. I *feel* that is her being respectful to herself and us for avoiding activities that could find us in that situation. She is also aware that jail time *could* prevent her from her current employment goals. She's working on becoming a Firefighter/EMT.
Is that what you mean about *respecting others needs?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...>
~~~ I won't make them sit in a jail cell overnight to teach them a
lesson.
I want them to KNOW that they can call me *any* time for *any* reason. ~
I've said this same thing with one further addition: Both my spouse
and I
have government jobs that state very strictly, that we CAN NOT bale
someone out
of jail ever, for any reason, or we face being fired.
-=-=-=-
WOW!!!! Really?? DAMN!
What kind of job is *that*???
That blows my mind!
-=-=-=-=-=-
My spouse would be more closely watched then I.
-=-=-=-
Ben's military. That comes with a whole string of issues.
I'm a loud homeschooling mom---I'm sure I'm a pretty easy target: in
the spotlight and easy to find. So it's important to *me* to keep our
i's dotted and t's crossed when it comes to anything that could
jeopardize our homeschooling.
-=-=-=-=-
So far she hasn't. I *feel* that is her being respectful to herself
and us
for avoiding activities that could find us in that situation. She is
also aware
that jail time *could* prevent her from her current employment goals.
She's
working on becoming a Firefighter/EMT.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Those are examples of *real* consequences. Not *natural*, but certainly
not arbitrarily imposed by the parent.
-=-=-=-==-
Is that what you mean about *respecting others needs?
-=-=-=-
Yes---and that's what our experience has been too. He's respectful of
our limitations and concerns, and he fully understands the consequences
of his actions.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...>
~~~ I won't make them sit in a jail cell overnight to teach them a
lesson.
I want them to KNOW that they can call me *any* time for *any* reason. ~
I've said this same thing with one further addition: Both my spouse
and I
have government jobs that state very strictly, that we CAN NOT bale
someone out
of jail ever, for any reason, or we face being fired.
-=-=-=-
WOW!!!! Really?? DAMN!
What kind of job is *that*???
That blows my mind!
-=-=-=-=-=-
My spouse would be more closely watched then I.
-=-=-=-
Ben's military. That comes with a whole string of issues.
I'm a loud homeschooling mom---I'm sure I'm a pretty easy target: in
the spotlight and easy to find. So it's important to *me* to keep our
i's dotted and t's crossed when it comes to anything that could
jeopardize our homeschooling.
-=-=-=-=-
So far she hasn't. I *feel* that is her being respectful to herself
and us
for avoiding activities that could find us in that situation. She is
also aware
that jail time *could* prevent her from her current employment goals.
She's
working on becoming a Firefighter/EMT.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Those are examples of *real* consequences. Not *natural*, but certainly
not arbitrarily imposed by the parent.
-=-=-=-==-
Is that what you mean about *respecting others needs?
-=-=-=-
Yes---and that's what our experience has been too. He's respectful of
our limitations and concerns, and he fully understands the consequences
of his actions.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Kim Musolff
***he kids have some baking supplies in our pantry. Just a shelf with
bowls and tupperware filled with baking supplies like flour, sugar,
salt, etc so the kids can mix ingredients and create concoctions.***
What a GREAT idea! I think we'll have to make one of these soon!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bowls and tupperware filled with baking supplies like flour, sugar,
salt, etc so the kids can mix ingredients and create concoctions.***
What a GREAT idea! I think we'll have to make one of these soon!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
Hearing this makes me realize how much more 'strewing' I could be doing even though they're only 3 1/2. And mine would love love love the baking supplies and bowls; I will definitely get on that for them this weekend.
And for the record, it was FINALLY summer here today! Just thought I'd brag to all of you who have been rubbing my nose in your flower planting for months <G>.
Jodi
Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:
***he kids have some baking supplies in our pantry. Just a shelf with
bowls and tupperware filled with baking supplies like flour, sugar,
salt, etc so the kids can mix ingredients and create concoctions.***
What a GREAT idea! I think we'll have to make one of these soon!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And for the record, it was FINALLY summer here today! Just thought I'd brag to all of you who have been rubbing my nose in your flower planting for months <G>.
Jodi
Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:
***he kids have some baking supplies in our pantry. Just a shelf with
bowls and tupperware filled with baking supplies like flour, sugar,
salt, etc so the kids can mix ingredients and create concoctions.***
What a GREAT idea! I think we'll have to make one of these soon!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
***And for the record, it was FINALLY summer here today! Just thought I'd
brag to all of you who have been rubbing my nose in your flower planting for
months <G>.***
We just got SNOW here yesterday (and the day before that)!
Kim, in CO
brag to all of you who have been rubbing my nose in your flower planting for
months <G>.***
We just got SNOW here yesterday (and the day before that)!
Kim, in CO
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jodi Bezzola
Funny, we had snow last week and could very likely have it again :). And today is 29 degrees, go figure. The last few days caught us scrambling to find our summer clothes! We have all seasons of stuff piled at our front door, because we're never quite sure what'll be happening when we wake up in the morning. Hey, It's unschooling weather <G>. Living in the foothills does have a certain weather charm, but 41 years of it and I'm kind of done!
Jodi
Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:
***And for the record, it was FINALLY summer here today! Just thought I'd
brag to all of you who have been rubbing my nose in your flower planting for
months <G>.***
We just got SNOW here yesterday (and the day before that)!
Kim, in CO
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...> wrote:
***And for the record, it was FINALLY summer here today! Just thought I'd
brag to all of you who have been rubbing my nose in your flower planting for
months <G>.***
We just got SNOW here yesterday (and the day before that)!
Kim, in CO
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]