Up to My Ears...
melissazietlow
Hello All,
Glad to report that although I still feel some uneasiness, I have
loosed my grip on the food issue. My dds are doing well and are
happy having more freedom. They seem to be slowing down a little
with the binging and begging, etc. as the novelty is wearing off.
Joyce, thanks for you response to aj concerning sitting at the table
for dinner. This has also been an issue for us (especially dh) and
your post helps.
So here goes with the NEXT issue... It has been suggested to me that
forcing children to clean up after themselves is not respectful or
healthy, and that having toys, etc. picked up is a parent's issue.
For some time, we have imposed clean up time once or twice a day and
required the girls (3 & 5yo now) to put away toys in the living room
and throughout the house. Of course, they have never wanted to do so
at any time, and in the past we have used punishment as an
'incentive' but have decided, after seriously questioning our
lifestyle that we don't want to coerce this any more either.
Our house is very small and our humble livingroom is the only place
toys can be kept. So it gets out of control to the point that I
cannot stand the clutter/lack of floor and sitting space. If left
unchecked, it spills over into the kitchen and diningroom and starts
to choke out the entire house. At times before we would help the
kids clean up, and try to make the chore a game by singing songs,
etc. Now and then we would get good results, but usually ended up
with two frustrated or angry parents who did most of the work.
At this point, we want good relationships with dds, and are seeing
that perhaps cleaning should be up to us, as we did choose to have
children and provide them with the toys. And a tidy home (key word:
tidy, NOT perfect)is just not a priority that the kids (and not
really to dh, sigh) can understand yet. We have stopped making it a
daily requirement (and I have been trying to let the mess bother me
less) and have been saying, "I would like to get these toys put away
today" instead of "time for you to clean up". Then one or both of us
does the job and casually asks the kids for help. When they refuse
(act deaf) we have been trying to let this go, BUT...I (more so than
dh) still feel, deep down, anger and resentment at times when I
am 'stuck' cleaning up after them while they sit and watch or go
merrily on their way. Hmmm...is this how they felt when I made them
do it alone?
I have been feeling selfish - it really upsets me that I do so much
for the family and no one (not even dh, really, but he tries to keep
the peace)wants to help me take care of things that are important to
me now and then. I have been controlling in the past, so perhaps that
is part of the issue right now, but as we have relaxed our parenting
over the last few months, I wonder is anyone appreciative at
all? I am almost 9 months pregnant and cannot physically keep up
with all that I usually do. I have been skimming the surface and
leaving the toys, but after several days, it needs an overhaul so we
can utilize the house comfortably! I just wanted to cry today as I
was bending over (difficult task) doing it myself again before
company came. It didn't bother anyone else but me.
Help me see the light? Or get my head out of the sand (or at least
above water)? Or do I just need a hormone adjustment?
Melissa Z.
Glad to report that although I still feel some uneasiness, I have
loosed my grip on the food issue. My dds are doing well and are
happy having more freedom. They seem to be slowing down a little
with the binging and begging, etc. as the novelty is wearing off.
Joyce, thanks for you response to aj concerning sitting at the table
for dinner. This has also been an issue for us (especially dh) and
your post helps.
So here goes with the NEXT issue... It has been suggested to me that
forcing children to clean up after themselves is not respectful or
healthy, and that having toys, etc. picked up is a parent's issue.
For some time, we have imposed clean up time once or twice a day and
required the girls (3 & 5yo now) to put away toys in the living room
and throughout the house. Of course, they have never wanted to do so
at any time, and in the past we have used punishment as an
'incentive' but have decided, after seriously questioning our
lifestyle that we don't want to coerce this any more either.
Our house is very small and our humble livingroom is the only place
toys can be kept. So it gets out of control to the point that I
cannot stand the clutter/lack of floor and sitting space. If left
unchecked, it spills over into the kitchen and diningroom and starts
to choke out the entire house. At times before we would help the
kids clean up, and try to make the chore a game by singing songs,
etc. Now and then we would get good results, but usually ended up
with two frustrated or angry parents who did most of the work.
At this point, we want good relationships with dds, and are seeing
that perhaps cleaning should be up to us, as we did choose to have
children and provide them with the toys. And a tidy home (key word:
tidy, NOT perfect)is just not a priority that the kids (and not
really to dh, sigh) can understand yet. We have stopped making it a
daily requirement (and I have been trying to let the mess bother me
less) and have been saying, "I would like to get these toys put away
today" instead of "time for you to clean up". Then one or both of us
does the job and casually asks the kids for help. When they refuse
(act deaf) we have been trying to let this go, BUT...I (more so than
dh) still feel, deep down, anger and resentment at times when I
am 'stuck' cleaning up after them while they sit and watch or go
merrily on their way. Hmmm...is this how they felt when I made them
do it alone?
I have been feeling selfish - it really upsets me that I do so much
for the family and no one (not even dh, really, but he tries to keep
the peace)wants to help me take care of things that are important to
me now and then. I have been controlling in the past, so perhaps that
is part of the issue right now, but as we have relaxed our parenting
over the last few months, I wonder is anyone appreciative at
all? I am almost 9 months pregnant and cannot physically keep up
with all that I usually do. I have been skimming the surface and
leaving the toys, but after several days, it needs an overhaul so we
can utilize the house comfortably! I just wanted to cry today as I
was bending over (difficult task) doing it myself again before
company came. It didn't bother anyone else but me.
Help me see the light? Or get my head out of the sand (or at least
above water)? Or do I just need a hormone adjustment?
Melissa Z.
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
"So here goes with the NEXT issue... It has been suggested to me that
forcing children to clean up after themselves is not respectful or
healthy, and that having toys, etc. picked up is a parent's issue. ...
Help me see the light? Or get my head out of the sand (or at least
above water)? Or do I just need a hormone adjustment?
Melissa Z."
Hi, Melissa,
I feel for where you are at! I have been through a lot of the mental
wondering about cleanup that you are pondering here (without even being all
hormonal and the whole bending thing!) and have gotten to a better place
somewhat over time, so I'd be happy to share my own thoughts in the event
they are helpful. FYI my kids are 5 and 3. I also have a small house and
it doesn't take much time before I am getting grumpy tripping over toys and
there's no room left to set up the next project. I have definitely
identified a need in myself for a certain amount of tidiness and have tried
to honor that as well as the needs for my kids to play and learn and
experiment all of which equal greater clutter.
I have never had much luck and not spent much time on forcing or punishment
type things for cleanup. My husband sometimes tries it and it never works.
When my daughter was younger she was very amenable to me making it more of a
game (sing the Barney song or ask "What color do you want to pick up? You
want red? Okay, I'll clean up yellow... or alternately it's more fun to
pick up certain things if you get to "throw" them in the appropriate
container) so we did a lot of that. My son doesn't respond so much to that.
Where we are at now is that I'm probably less bothered by the clutter than I
used to be, but also I've discussed with my children how clutter makes me
feel and my needs around it and we've found some things that work. I find
discussion with them at an age appropriate levels about my needs and
feelings a big key to both helping me move to a better place and also
enlisting their help in just about all areas where here we are trying to
together with different needs and tolerances.
So these days to enlist their help cleaning up I have a few things.
Sometimes I go with "Okay, to start this next project you want, I think we
need to make some space by cleaning up the last few things you guys did.
I'm ready to help you set up the next thing when we get all of that cleaned
up" and that works a lot ... we all pitch in together to clean it.
Sometimes I just go with "Okay, it's getting late in the day and we have a
lot of old projects not cleaned up yet. Mom's tripping over things. You
guys are asking for more toys to come out from the closet. I like to help
you with the things you want, and I need you to help me now get the clutter
picked up which is something mama wants". They are really responsive to
that for the most part. I see it as getting cooperation that enables all of
us to live together peacefully in the same space. I help them with what
they want and let them know that I expect they will help me. It is seldom
that they will choose not to do the next project to avoid cleaning up. I
still clean up quite a bit after my 3 year old because he is after all 3 and
his capabilities of making a mess far exceed his clean up capabilities, but
it's important to me that he pitch in and make an effort - if I see him
helping I find that even if I'm doing a lot of it, I'm not so angry and
cranky.
Also as long as I see them willing to help and take some responsibility for
their messes I find that I can handle the new messes with more equanimity
instead of a long held inside repressed sigh. I find it funny that as I
write this my daughter, son and niece have taken every book off our three
shelf bookshelf of kids books, stewn them on the floor and are having fun
with them - my son mostly walking over the piles, my daughter and niece
actually looking at what they find. It's a huge mess, but I didn't blink an
eye when they made it because I know I will have some cooperation at some
point cleaning it up so I can enjoy the bonding with all those books they
are having without inwardly seething that I'll have to clean it all up
myself. So my suggestion is talk to them about how you feel and try some
different ways of enlisting their cooperation and see what works for all of
you. I think it's important to honor your own feelings and your children's
as well about how they like to be treated (not many of us like to be
dictated to, but most of us are more than willing to help if we are part of
a team) so you can all live together in harmony. It's not a "parent
problem", it's a "family issue" in my eyes.
Cheers,
Joan
forcing children to clean up after themselves is not respectful or
healthy, and that having toys, etc. picked up is a parent's issue. ...
Help me see the light? Or get my head out of the sand (or at least
above water)? Or do I just need a hormone adjustment?
Melissa Z."
Hi, Melissa,
I feel for where you are at! I have been through a lot of the mental
wondering about cleanup that you are pondering here (without even being all
hormonal and the whole bending thing!) and have gotten to a better place
somewhat over time, so I'd be happy to share my own thoughts in the event
they are helpful. FYI my kids are 5 and 3. I also have a small house and
it doesn't take much time before I am getting grumpy tripping over toys and
there's no room left to set up the next project. I have definitely
identified a need in myself for a certain amount of tidiness and have tried
to honor that as well as the needs for my kids to play and learn and
experiment all of which equal greater clutter.
I have never had much luck and not spent much time on forcing or punishment
type things for cleanup. My husband sometimes tries it and it never works.
When my daughter was younger she was very amenable to me making it more of a
game (sing the Barney song or ask "What color do you want to pick up? You
want red? Okay, I'll clean up yellow... or alternately it's more fun to
pick up certain things if you get to "throw" them in the appropriate
container) so we did a lot of that. My son doesn't respond so much to that.
Where we are at now is that I'm probably less bothered by the clutter than I
used to be, but also I've discussed with my children how clutter makes me
feel and my needs around it and we've found some things that work. I find
discussion with them at an age appropriate levels about my needs and
feelings a big key to both helping me move to a better place and also
enlisting their help in just about all areas where here we are trying to
together with different needs and tolerances.
So these days to enlist their help cleaning up I have a few things.
Sometimes I go with "Okay, to start this next project you want, I think we
need to make some space by cleaning up the last few things you guys did.
I'm ready to help you set up the next thing when we get all of that cleaned
up" and that works a lot ... we all pitch in together to clean it.
Sometimes I just go with "Okay, it's getting late in the day and we have a
lot of old projects not cleaned up yet. Mom's tripping over things. You
guys are asking for more toys to come out from the closet. I like to help
you with the things you want, and I need you to help me now get the clutter
picked up which is something mama wants". They are really responsive to
that for the most part. I see it as getting cooperation that enables all of
us to live together peacefully in the same space. I help them with what
they want and let them know that I expect they will help me. It is seldom
that they will choose not to do the next project to avoid cleaning up. I
still clean up quite a bit after my 3 year old because he is after all 3 and
his capabilities of making a mess far exceed his clean up capabilities, but
it's important to me that he pitch in and make an effort - if I see him
helping I find that even if I'm doing a lot of it, I'm not so angry and
cranky.
Also as long as I see them willing to help and take some responsibility for
their messes I find that I can handle the new messes with more equanimity
instead of a long held inside repressed sigh. I find it funny that as I
write this my daughter, son and niece have taken every book off our three
shelf bookshelf of kids books, stewn them on the floor and are having fun
with them - my son mostly walking over the piles, my daughter and niece
actually looking at what they find. It's a huge mess, but I didn't blink an
eye when they made it because I know I will have some cooperation at some
point cleaning it up so I can enjoy the bonding with all those books they
are having without inwardly seething that I'll have to clean it all up
myself. So my suggestion is talk to them about how you feel and try some
different ways of enlisting their cooperation and see what works for all of
you. I think it's important to honor your own feelings and your children's
as well about how they like to be treated (not many of us like to be
dictated to, but most of us are more than willing to help if we are part of
a team) so you can all live together in harmony. It's not a "parent
problem", it's a "family issue" in my eyes.
Cheers,
Joan
Dana Matt
Just a thought ;)
You say that the toys can only be kept in the
livingroom? How about, now that you're relaxing about
eating, you get rid of the dining room table and turn
that into a cool play room, with bright shelves and a
TV, playstation, all that. We did something similar a
few years ago--we have a small house, with three small
bedrooms, and took one of the bedrooms, patched the
doorway that was in the hallway and cut a hole to it
from the living room. Then we put cool french doors
on it. It has long, low shelves that offer for ease
in cleaning, and I bought wicker baskets for $1 at
walmart and fill them with toys. NOT to say that we
mandate toys stay in that room or anything, but it is
a really cool room with no other furniture but toys
and bean bag chairs, and a pop machine, and
tv/vcr/tivo/playstation....so lots of playing does
happen there. Since we family bed, we were only using
it as a guest room anyway, and that's just stupid! If
we have guests, they can sleep on the couch or stay in
a hotel! My kids should be comfortable all the time!
As for enforced cleaning, obviously it sounds like it
wouldn't be an option for you, but my husband and I
spend about 2 hours cleaning on Saturday morning, and
that's when most of the cleaning gets done for the
week. Other than that, there's laundry and dishes and
garbage and that stuff, but clutter gets de-cluttered
and put where it belongs once a week, to start the
migration out again. It helps a lot that most of the
toys are in the playroom, and that there's a door
there in case of guests (who am I kidding--no one ever
visits :( but other than a weekly pick up we would
rather spend time living than cleaning...
Dana
in Montana
--- melissazietlow <Zietlowfamily@...>
wrote:
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You say that the toys can only be kept in the
livingroom? How about, now that you're relaxing about
eating, you get rid of the dining room table and turn
that into a cool play room, with bright shelves and a
TV, playstation, all that. We did something similar a
few years ago--we have a small house, with three small
bedrooms, and took one of the bedrooms, patched the
doorway that was in the hallway and cut a hole to it
from the living room. Then we put cool french doors
on it. It has long, low shelves that offer for ease
in cleaning, and I bought wicker baskets for $1 at
walmart and fill them with toys. NOT to say that we
mandate toys stay in that room or anything, but it is
a really cool room with no other furniture but toys
and bean bag chairs, and a pop machine, and
tv/vcr/tivo/playstation....so lots of playing does
happen there. Since we family bed, we were only using
it as a guest room anyway, and that's just stupid! If
we have guests, they can sleep on the couch or stay in
a hotel! My kids should be comfortable all the time!
As for enforced cleaning, obviously it sounds like it
wouldn't be an option for you, but my husband and I
spend about 2 hours cleaning on Saturday morning, and
that's when most of the cleaning gets done for the
week. Other than that, there's laundry and dishes and
garbage and that stuff, but clutter gets de-cluttered
and put where it belongs once a week, to start the
migration out again. It helps a lot that most of the
toys are in the playroom, and that there's a door
there in case of guests (who am I kidding--no one ever
visits :( but other than a weekly pick up we would
rather spend time living than cleaning...
Dana
in Montana
--- melissazietlow <Zietlowfamily@...>
wrote:
> Hello All,http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/0xXolB/TM
>
> Glad to report that although I still feel some
> uneasiness, I have
> loosed my grip on the food issue. My dds are doing
> well and are
> happy having more freedom. They seem to be slowing
> down a little
> with the binging and begging, etc. as the novelty is
> wearing off.
> Joyce, thanks for you response to aj concerning
> sitting at the table
> for dinner. This has also been an issue for us
> (especially dh) and
> your post helps.
>
> So here goes with the NEXT issue... It has been
> suggested to me that
> forcing children to clean up after themselves is not
> respectful or
> healthy, and that having toys, etc. picked up is a
> parent's issue.
> For some time, we have imposed clean up time once or
> twice a day and
> required the girls (3 & 5yo now) to put away toys in
> the living room
> and throughout the house. Of course, they have
> never wanted to do so
> at any time, and in the past we have used punishment
> as an
> 'incentive' but have decided, after seriously
> questioning our
> lifestyle that we don't want to coerce this any more
> either.
>
> Our house is very small and our humble livingroom is
> the only place
> toys can be kept. So it gets out of control to the
> point that I
> cannot stand the clutter/lack of floor and sitting
> space. If left
> unchecked, it spills over into the kitchen and
> diningroom and starts
> to choke out the entire house. At times before we
> would help the
> kids clean up, and try to make the chore a game by
> singing songs,
> etc. Now and then we would get good results, but
> usually ended up
> with two frustrated or angry parents who did most of
> the work.
>
> At this point, we want good relationships with dds,
> and are seeing
> that perhaps cleaning should be up to us, as we did
> choose to have
> children and provide them with the toys. And a tidy
> home (key word:
> tidy, NOT perfect)is just not a priority that the
> kids (and not
> really to dh, sigh) can understand yet. We have
> stopped making it a
> daily requirement (and I have been trying to let the
> mess bother me
> less) and have been saying, "I would like to get
> these toys put away
> today" instead of "time for you to clean up". Then
> one or both of us
> does the job and casually asks the kids for help.
> When they refuse
> (act deaf) we have been trying to let this go,
> BUT...I (more so than
> dh) still feel, deep down, anger and resentment at
> times when I
> am 'stuck' cleaning up after them while they sit and
> watch or go
> merrily on their way. Hmmm...is this how they felt
> when I made them
> do it alone?
>
> I have been feeling selfish - it really upsets me
> that I do so much
> for the family and no one (not even dh, really, but
> he tries to keep
> the peace)wants to help me take care of things that
> are important to
> me now and then. I have been controlling in the
> past, so perhaps that
> is part of the issue right now, but as we have
> relaxed our parenting
> over the last few months, I wonder is anyone
> appreciative at
> all? I am almost 9 months pregnant and cannot
> physically keep up
> with all that I usually do. I have been skimming
> the surface and
> leaving the toys, but after several days, it needs
> an overhaul so we
> can utilize the house comfortably! I just wanted to
> cry today as I
> was bending over (difficult task) doing it myself
> again before
> company came. It didn't bother anyone else but me.
>
> Help me see the light? Or get my head out of the
> sand (or at least
> above water)? Or do I just need a hormone
> adjustment?
>
> Melissa Z.
>
>
>
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Jon and Rue Kream
>>My dds are doing well and arehappy having more freedom.
**That's great :0). I hope it continues to go well for you guys.
>>Then one or both of usdoes the job and casually asks the kids for help. When they refuse
(act deaf) we have been trying to let this go, BUT...
**What if you just don't ask for a while? If you know before you start that
you're going to be doing it yourselves you won't be setting yourselves up to
be disappointed by the fact that they're not helping you. The kids might
just need some time to get used to the idea that you're not making them
clean.
>>BUT...I (more so thandh) still feel, deep down, anger and resentment at times when I
am 'stuck' cleaning up after them while they sit and watch or go
merrily on their way. Hmmm...is this how they felt when I made them
do it alone?
**I consciously think happy things while I'm doing housework. When I do
laundry I think about the fact that we're all going to be glad we have clean
clothes to wear or how nice it is to slip into bed after you put on fresh
sheets. When I sweep the floor I think about how nice it is to walk around
barefoot on a clean floor. When I put toys away I think about how having
things right where they can find them makes it easier for Dagny and Rowan to
jump in and do whatever occurs to them. I don't want to see something that
I do every day as drudgery, so I try to keep in mind that I'm choosing to do
it and that I do it to make our house a comfortable and happy place to be.
>>I am almost 9 months pregnant and cannot physically keep upwith all that I usually do.
**And you shouldn't have to. Would your husband be willing to have you make
a list each day of some things he could do when he got home to lighten your
load? Even if having a clean house is not important to him I'm sure your
happiness and physical comfort is. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/6/2004 8:31:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
salgenovese@... writes:
> So my suggestion is talk to them about how you feel and try someshiny and > sweeping the kitchen floor all to herself. And she is quite proud
> different ways of enlisting their cooperation and see what works for all of
> you.
>
> I have done that with my two youngest...71/2 and 6....whom I am with most
> of the time. We don't have set chores anymore, but we try to work together
> as a family in keeping the house in some sort of non-chaotic state <<G>>.
> And now my daughter ( 6) has taken over the task of keeping the bathroom sink
> of it.~~Marcia S~~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melissazietlow
--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
place and also enlisting their help in just about all areas where
here we are trying to together with different needs and tolerances.
Yes, this more than anything seems to help in all situations WHEN I
can find the appropriate words to say (without sounding coercive or
like a martyr), in a way they can understand where I am coming from.
I am still struggling with the approach, and if I don't get it just
right, older dd does not respond.
They are really responsive to that for the most part. I help them
with what they want and let them know that I expect they will help
me.
I have said something like this (which as you worded it, sounds
great), but when it came out of my mouth, it sounded as if I was
saying I don't want to help you if you don't help me -- which is
probably not a good thing to communicate. And I don't want to sound
as if I am bargaining/negotiating for help either???
MZ
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
> I find discussion with them at an age appropriate levels about myneeds and feelings a big key to both helping me move to a better
place and also enlisting their help in just about all areas where
here we are trying to together with different needs and tolerances.
Yes, this more than anything seems to help in all situations WHEN I
can find the appropriate words to say (without sounding coercive or
like a martyr), in a way they can understand where I am coming from.
I am still struggling with the approach, and if I don't get it just
right, older dd does not respond.
> I like to help you with the things you want, and I need you to helpme now get the clutter picked up which is something mama wants".
They are really responsive to that for the most part. I help them
with what they want and let them know that I expect they will help
me.
I have said something like this (which as you worded it, sounds
great), but when it came out of my mouth, it sounded as if I was
saying I don't want to help you if you don't help me -- which is
probably not a good thing to communicate. And I don't want to sound
as if I am bargaining/negotiating for help either???
> It's not a "parent problem", it's a "family issue" in my eyes.Thanks, that helps.
MZ
melissazietlow
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
to think of ways we can rearrange/make better use of the house but am
just not seeing how it can be done...
MZ
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
> Just a thought ;)Intersting idea... Oh how I wish we had a playroom!!!! I have tried
>
> You say that the toys can only be kept in the
> livingroom? How about, now that you're relaxing about
> eating, you get rid of the dining room table and turn
> that into a cool play room
to think of ways we can rearrange/make better use of the house but am
just not seeing how it can be done...
MZ
melissazietlow
--- In [email protected], "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@c...> wrote:
just cannot do it all and the situation is at a point where something
must be done for my sanity (or other for company), and I really do
need assistance.
think of housework as a blessing to my family, and it has been a
tremendous positive change for me. But the feelings over the toys
are lingering...
to lighten your load? Even if having a clean house is not important
to him I'm sure your happiness and physical comfort is.
Dh has been working a lot, and is up to his ears in things he is
struggling to accomplish most of the time (ie yardwork, vehicle
repair, etc.) but he does help when he can. I usually have to
specifically ask, or he does not see what the need is. Today I
decided that I am going to have a talk with him about the team
approach to the toy situation. I wonder, if he was the one to
encourage the kids to help HIM to help me, if they might respond
better than if I ask myself?
Thanks,
MZ
<skreams@c...> wrote:
> What if you just don't ask for a while?I have not been asking very often. But there have been days where I
just cannot do it all and the situation is at a point where something
must be done for my sanity (or other for company), and I really do
need assistance.
> I consciously think happy things while I'm doing housework.This was a huge one for me. With the help of Flylady, I came to
think of housework as a blessing to my family, and it has been a
tremendous positive change for me. But the feelings over the toys
are lingering...
>I am almost 9 months pregnant and cannot physically keep upyou make a list each day of some things he could do when he got home
> with all that I usually do.
>And you shouldn't have to. Would your husband be willing to have
to lighten your load? Even if having a clean house is not important
to him I'm sure your happiness and physical comfort is.
Dh has been working a lot, and is up to his ears in things he is
struggling to accomplish most of the time (ie yardwork, vehicle
repair, etc.) but he does help when he can. I usually have to
specifically ask, or he does not see what the need is. Today I
decided that I am going to have a talk with him about the team
approach to the toy situation. I wonder, if he was the one to
encourage the kids to help HIM to help me, if they might respond
better than if I ask myself?
Thanks,
MZ
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
-----Original Message-----
From: melissazietlow [mailto:Zietlowfamily@...]
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 12:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Up to My Ears...
"Yes, this more than anything seems to help in all situations WHEN I
can find the appropriate words to say (without sounding coercive or
like a martyr), in a way they can understand where I am coming from.
I am still struggling with the approach, and if I don't get it just
right, older dd does not respond."
I hear you. I find it's good to wait till I'm feeling calm and not do it in
a moment of anger. Waiting till I'm calm makes it more likely things will
come out sounding a way I end up liking. How about something like "Gosh,
have you guys noticed how big this new baby is getting? It's really hard
for me to bend down to pick up, and I'm worried I'll trip over some of these
toys and fall down. I could really use some help on this. Do you have any
ideas on how we could keep things more tidy?"
"I have said something like this (which as you worded it, sounds
great), but when it came out of my mouth, it sounded as if I was
saying I don't want to help you if you don't help me -- which is
probably not a good thing to communicate. And I don't want to sound
as if I am bargaining/negotiating for help either???"
Rather than doing an "if" type of scenario, I strive really hard to make it
a "when" scenario which I feel is a different message. I would not want it
to be "if" you don't help me, I won't help you, but "Okay, I need some help
here and I'm ready to help you with the next thing you want when this
cleanup is done" message. So it's how long do they want to wait which is up
to them. For instance last night with the huge book mess, after I got off
the computer we all got busy reading. Before I knew it it was 9:30pm. I
asked them if they wanted to pick up now or tomorrow morning since it was so
late and it's a tall order to clean up such a mess late at night. I was
willing to wait. My daugher said "tomorrow", so I said "okay, so we'll do
it tomorrow after we've had a chance to wake up and eat and before we go to
Plaster Fun Time (a trip we have planned today which she wants to go to
first thing). As soon as she knew I was planning to do it before we went on
her outing, she declared "No, I think I'd rather do it now" and we did. I
don't think it would have been effective or made me feel we were working
together to say "If you don't clean up this mess then we won't go to Plaster
Funtime at all!" That type of "if" thing feels like a punative, angry
message to me. The other thing I did that helps them is that with big
messes I've noticed they often get overwhelmed and don't know where to
begin, so it's good to suggest jobs they can break up the task with. Last
night I started with suggesting my daughter find all her magazines and put
them in a pile while I started on the bottom shelf, which got her going. I
suggested my son go get the books that were out of my reach far away and
"dump" them near me (he loves to dump) which was a big help and within his
ability.
Good luck.
Joan
From: melissazietlow [mailto:Zietlowfamily@...]
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 12:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Up to My Ears...
"Yes, this more than anything seems to help in all situations WHEN I
can find the appropriate words to say (without sounding coercive or
like a martyr), in a way they can understand where I am coming from.
I am still struggling with the approach, and if I don't get it just
right, older dd does not respond."
I hear you. I find it's good to wait till I'm feeling calm and not do it in
a moment of anger. Waiting till I'm calm makes it more likely things will
come out sounding a way I end up liking. How about something like "Gosh,
have you guys noticed how big this new baby is getting? It's really hard
for me to bend down to pick up, and I'm worried I'll trip over some of these
toys and fall down. I could really use some help on this. Do you have any
ideas on how we could keep things more tidy?"
"I have said something like this (which as you worded it, sounds
great), but when it came out of my mouth, it sounded as if I was
saying I don't want to help you if you don't help me -- which is
probably not a good thing to communicate. And I don't want to sound
as if I am bargaining/negotiating for help either???"
Rather than doing an "if" type of scenario, I strive really hard to make it
a "when" scenario which I feel is a different message. I would not want it
to be "if" you don't help me, I won't help you, but "Okay, I need some help
here and I'm ready to help you with the next thing you want when this
cleanup is done" message. So it's how long do they want to wait which is up
to them. For instance last night with the huge book mess, after I got off
the computer we all got busy reading. Before I knew it it was 9:30pm. I
asked them if they wanted to pick up now or tomorrow morning since it was so
late and it's a tall order to clean up such a mess late at night. I was
willing to wait. My daugher said "tomorrow", so I said "okay, so we'll do
it tomorrow after we've had a chance to wake up and eat and before we go to
Plaster Fun Time (a trip we have planned today which she wants to go to
first thing). As soon as she knew I was planning to do it before we went on
her outing, she declared "No, I think I'd rather do it now" and we did. I
don't think it would have been effective or made me feel we were working
together to say "If you don't clean up this mess then we won't go to Plaster
Funtime at all!" That type of "if" thing feels like a punative, angry
message to me. The other thing I did that helps them is that with big
messes I've noticed they often get overwhelmed and don't know where to
begin, so it's good to suggest jobs they can break up the task with. Last
night I started with suggesting my daughter find all her magazines and put
them in a pile while I started on the bottom shelf, which got her going. I
suggested my son go get the books that were out of my reach far away and
"dump" them near me (he loves to dump) which was a big help and within his
ability.
Good luck.
Joan
Deb Lewis
Melissa,
Be kind to yourself. = )
Ask your husband for help with the things that are bothering you. If you
really want a clear space in the living room but can handle toys around
the parameter, let him know that so he has a definite idea what will help
you the most.
Your kids can't really know how draining it is to be pregnant. They
can't really know your hormones are telling you to get everything ready
for your new baby. They can't really understand how busy your going to
be when the baby comes or how worried you are that nothing will ever get
done. It's not that they don't care about how you feel, they love you.
They are not trying to make things hard on you. They want a happy home
life just as much as you do.
I think you can be secretly happy that you have such smart children. If
you've been grumpy and resentful while picking up toys they've probably
come to think of picking up as an awful task that should be avoided. I
think it might take some time with you and your dh modeling the cheerful
maintenance of your home for them to feel like helping.
Are there things you could do to make putting the toys away easier? Can
you put bins in convenient places or hang canvas bags on hooks on the
wall and stuff toys in there? If it was really easy for the kids to do
and really easy to retrieve a toy again they might be more willing to
help. Maybe you're doing this already.
Do you have room for a little tent in your living room where you could
stash toys? They might really like putting toys into the tent.
You're making a lot of changes at a fairly stressful and physically
demanding time in your life. I find that remarkable, Melissa. You're
moving toward a better place, and it will get easier for you and your
family the more you live it.
Deb Lewis
Be kind to yourself. = )
Ask your husband for help with the things that are bothering you. If you
really want a clear space in the living room but can handle toys around
the parameter, let him know that so he has a definite idea what will help
you the most.
Your kids can't really know how draining it is to be pregnant. They
can't really know your hormones are telling you to get everything ready
for your new baby. They can't really understand how busy your going to
be when the baby comes or how worried you are that nothing will ever get
done. It's not that they don't care about how you feel, they love you.
They are not trying to make things hard on you. They want a happy home
life just as much as you do.
I think you can be secretly happy that you have such smart children. If
you've been grumpy and resentful while picking up toys they've probably
come to think of picking up as an awful task that should be avoided. I
think it might take some time with you and your dh modeling the cheerful
maintenance of your home for them to feel like helping.
Are there things you could do to make putting the toys away easier? Can
you put bins in convenient places or hang canvas bags on hooks on the
wall and stuff toys in there? If it was really easy for the kids to do
and really easy to retrieve a toy again they might be more willing to
help. Maybe you're doing this already.
Do you have room for a little tent in your living room where you could
stash toys? They might really like putting toys into the tent.
You're making a lot of changes at a fairly stressful and physically
demanding time in your life. I find that remarkable, Melissa. You're
moving toward a better place, and it will get easier for you and your
family the more you live it.
Deb Lewis
pam sorooshian
Joan - that was such a great description of exactly how to "work
together" in practice - as an alternative to ordering kids around. I'm
saving that and will pull it out in the future as an example. Sometimes
this is hard to get across to people who are used to thinking, "They
made the mess, they should clean it up."
I'd like to bring this back to its unschooling connection - just in
case that isn't clear to people new to unschooling.
When we start trusting our children to learn what they need to learn,
when, and how -- this approach/attitude will soon naturally begin to
spill over into how we behave regarding things that aren't
"educational." When we develop the collaborative kind of natural
learning lifestyle that is unschooling, we'll soon find that we are
closely examining how we relate to our children in other aspects of
life - food, bedtimes, television, and chores.
When learning, which used to look like assignments, lessons, tests, and
grades, starts to be easy, calm, peaceful, joyful and natural, we often
start to think that maybe other areas of life with our kids that are
still hard and conflict-ridden can ALSO be transformed.
That is why unschooling discussions gravitate naturally to include
talking about all aspects of life.
-pam
together" in practice - as an alternative to ordering kids around. I'm
saving that and will pull it out in the future as an example. Sometimes
this is hard to get across to people who are used to thinking, "They
made the mess, they should clean it up."
I'd like to bring this back to its unschooling connection - just in
case that isn't clear to people new to unschooling.
When we start trusting our children to learn what they need to learn,
when, and how -- this approach/attitude will soon naturally begin to
spill over into how we behave regarding things that aren't
"educational." When we develop the collaborative kind of natural
learning lifestyle that is unschooling, we'll soon find that we are
closely examining how we relate to our children in other aspects of
life - food, bedtimes, television, and chores.
When learning, which used to look like assignments, lessons, tests, and
grades, starts to be easy, calm, peaceful, joyful and natural, we often
start to think that maybe other areas of life with our kids that are
still hard and conflict-ridden can ALSO be transformed.
That is why unschooling discussions gravitate naturally to include
talking about all aspects of life.
-pam
On Jun 7, 2004, at 6:49 AM, Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: melissazietlow [mailto:Zietlowfamily@...]
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 12:26 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Up to My Ears...
>
>
> "Yes, this more than anything seems to help in all situations WHEN I
> can find the appropriate words to say (without sounding coercive or
> like a martyr), in a way they can understand where I am coming from.
> I am still struggling with the approach, and if I don't get it just
> right, older dd does not respond."
>
> I hear you. I find it's good to wait till I'm feeling calm and not do
> it in
> a moment of anger. Waiting till I'm calm makes it more likely things
> will
> come out sounding a way I end up liking. How about something like
> "Gosh,
> have you guys noticed how big this new baby is getting? It's really
> hard
> for me to bend down to pick up, and I'm worried I'll trip over some of
> these
> toys and fall down. I could really use some help on this. Do you
> have any
> ideas on how we could keep things more tidy?"
>
>
> "I have said something like this (which as you worded it, sounds
> great), but when it came out of my mouth, it sounded as if I was
> saying I don't want to help you if you don't help me -- which is
> probably not a good thing to communicate. And I don't want to sound
> as if I am bargaining/negotiating for help either???"
>
> Rather than doing an "if" type of scenario, I strive really hard to
> make it
> a "when" scenario which I feel is a different message. I would not
> want it
> to be "if" you don't help me, I won't help you, but "Okay, I need some
> help
> here and I'm ready to help you with the next thing you want when this
> cleanup is done" message. So it's how long do they want to wait which
> is up
> to them. For instance last night with the huge book mess, after I got
> off
> the computer we all got busy reading. Before I knew it it was 9:30pm.
> I
> asked them if they wanted to pick up now or tomorrow morning since it
> was so
> late and it's a tall order to clean up such a mess late at night. I
> was
> willing to wait. My daugher said "tomorrow", so I said "okay, so
> we'll do
> it tomorrow after we've had a chance to wake up and eat and before we
> go to
> Plaster Fun Time (a trip we have planned today which she wants to go to
> first thing). As soon as she knew I was planning to do it before we
> went on
> her outing, she declared "No, I think I'd rather do it now" and we
> did. I
> don't think it would have been effective or made me feel we were
> working
> together to say "If you don't clean up this mess then we won't go to
> Plaster
> Funtime at all!" That type of "if" thing feels like a punative, angry
> message to me. The other thing I did that helps them is that with big
> messes I've noticed they often get overwhelmed and don't know where to
> begin, so it's good to suggest jobs they can break up the task with.
> Last
> night I started with suggesting my daughter find all her magazines and
> put
> them in a pile while I started on the bottom shelf, which got her
> going. I
> suggested my son go get the books that were out of my reach far away
> and
> "dump" them near me (he loves to dump) which was a big help and within
> his
> ability.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> Joan
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
mamaaj2000
Melissa,
A quick little idea: if bending over is the worst part, ask the kids
to hand things to you when they are sitting on the floor. "I'm
cleaning up, but it hurts to bend over. Please hand me those 5 toys
and I'll put them away so that we don't step on them."
We play construction vehicles to clean up. So if the kids are cranes
or forklifts, they'll push stuff up to "Mommy Dump Truck".
--aj
A quick little idea: if bending over is the worst part, ask the kids
to hand things to you when they are sitting on the floor. "I'm
cleaning up, but it hurts to bend over. Please hand me those 5 toys
and I'll put them away so that we don't step on them."
We play construction vehicles to clean up. So if the kids are cranes
or forklifts, they'll push stuff up to "Mommy Dump Truck".
--aj
Deb Lewis
***When learning, which used to look like assignments, lessons, tests,
and
grades, starts to be easy, calm, peaceful, joyful and natural, we often
start to think that maybe other areas of life with our kids that are
still hard and conflict-ridden can ALSO be transformed.***
This is just such a clear and practical, common sense thing to me.
Our kids won't learn to read all at once. It doesn't usually happen that
they pick up a book for the first time, look at the words and the next
time they pick up a book they can read. Reading is a process. Each kid
makes sense of the words in their own time.
So, when we're thinking of natural learning and the ways it spills over
into other parts of our lives, we should remember there is a process for
everything. Every kid will make sense of things in their own time. If
we're going to accept kids will gradually acquire reading skills, if
they're read to and see other's reading, then it's easier to accept kids
will gradually acquire cleaning up skills if people clean up for them and
they see people cleaning up.
I've seen it. My son does most of his own laundry. He even has to get a
stool to stand on so he can reach into the washer to take stuff out, so
it's not the easiest thing for him to do, but he does it. I never
required him to do laundry and I don't ever remember even asking him to.
He'll clean up hair balls if the cat spews. He takes the garbage out
when he sees it's full. He sometimes does dishes. But none of that
happened all at once. He didn't just wake up one day and know how to do
those things and have a desire to do them. He lived with people who did
them because it made everyone's life a little better and less frustrating
when those things were taken care of. He lived with people who did them
happily, (usually<g>) and who were happy to do things for him.
Deb Lewis
and
grades, starts to be easy, calm, peaceful, joyful and natural, we often
start to think that maybe other areas of life with our kids that are
still hard and conflict-ridden can ALSO be transformed.***
This is just such a clear and practical, common sense thing to me.
Our kids won't learn to read all at once. It doesn't usually happen that
they pick up a book for the first time, look at the words and the next
time they pick up a book they can read. Reading is a process. Each kid
makes sense of the words in their own time.
So, when we're thinking of natural learning and the ways it spills over
into other parts of our lives, we should remember there is a process for
everything. Every kid will make sense of things in their own time. If
we're going to accept kids will gradually acquire reading skills, if
they're read to and see other's reading, then it's easier to accept kids
will gradually acquire cleaning up skills if people clean up for them and
they see people cleaning up.
I've seen it. My son does most of his own laundry. He even has to get a
stool to stand on so he can reach into the washer to take stuff out, so
it's not the easiest thing for him to do, but he does it. I never
required him to do laundry and I don't ever remember even asking him to.
He'll clean up hair balls if the cat spews. He takes the garbage out
when he sees it's full. He sometimes does dishes. But none of that
happened all at once. He didn't just wake up one day and know how to do
those things and have a desire to do them. He lived with people who did
them because it made everyone's life a little better and less frustrating
when those things were taken care of. He lived with people who did them
happily, (usually<g>) and who were happy to do things for him.
Deb Lewis