autism
The Patersons
Hey all,
I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this list.
How does RU work for them?
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this list.
How does RU work for them?
Cecily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], "The Patersons"
<tuipiri@...> wrote:
unschooling is good for the "average" kid, then why wouldn't it be
great for kids with special challenges who might be crushed even worse
by the school system?
RU works for every child, because it's all about the parents meeting
them where they're at and helping meet their needs.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
<tuipiri@...> wrote:
>The real question in my mind, is how would school help them? If
> Hey all,
>
>
>
> I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this list.
>
>
>
> How does RU work for them?
>
>
>
> Cecily
>
unschooling is good for the "average" kid, then why wouldn't it be
great for kids with special challenges who might be crushed even worse
by the school system?
RU works for every child, because it's all about the parents meeting
them where they're at and helping meet their needs.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
>
Melissa Gray
Works great for all of my kids on the spectrum, and all the ones off
as well.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
as well.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
On May 11, 2008, at 10:34 PM, The Patersons wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this list.
>
> How does RU work for them?
>
> Cecily
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Gray
YES! School helped not at all. With our more affected child, the very
early education was led by a very dedicated sweet teacher, and it
wasn't harmful. However, after kindergarden it was hell on earth. My
older child had the same issues...diagnosed as clinically depressed
because of school. All because they were different.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
early education was led by a very dedicated sweet teacher, and it
wasn't harmful. However, after kindergarden it was hell on earth. My
older child had the same issues...diagnosed as clinically depressed
because of school. All because they were different.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
On May 12, 2008, at 9:38 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "The Patersons"
> <tuipiri@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> >
> >
> > I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this
> list.
> >
> >
> >
> > How does RU work for them?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cecily
> >
>
> The real question in my mind, is how would school help them? If
> unschooling is good for the "average" kid, then why wouldn't it be
> great for kids with special challenges who might be crushed even worse
> by the school system?
>
> RU works for every child, because it's all about the parents meeting
> them where they're at and helping meet their needs.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul H. Beaulieu II
I am sorry but here i must disagree whole heartedly. I have been
lurking and reading what i can as i am interested in the whole
unschooling concept as a person who i am considering spending the rest
of my life with is currently engaging in un-everything with her
children. my 8 year old daughter who is on the spectrum and for the
record is very high functioning has progressed very well within a
public school environment. we had her in a montessori school at first
thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
that i read about on this board. however that failed to materialize as
she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
was turning into a one trick pony. once we transferred her to a
typical public school system who, governed by federal law and baby sat
ba an attentive and educated father, gives my daughter an environment
where she is thriving and lives a wonderfully joy filled life. i find
to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive to her
but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included. i
understand that all children do not have her school experiences but i
would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
maneer of involvement of the parents. while i am inclined to believe
that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
learn and grow without incentive or direction, just as we can clearly
say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
same is true for a learning and living style like RU. I have read a
lot of things in the last week on this group and many have been quite
insightful while others are clearly based on ignorance of the human
body and its chemical make up. I am chosing to treat the group like a
chicken dinner i eat the meat and throw out the bones at this point,
however autism is an area that i have specific personal experience and
act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant. in either case it is not
something i can in good conscience let pass without comment. what i
have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this way
with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years. i hear
story after story of people who are trying this and trying that, who
have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr old even a
few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who once switched
to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically that is not
sufficient data. please direct me if there are those who can to the
long term results not the theories. I am sorry if my directness
offends any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your
feelings combined and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
work with and for her.
that said, Have a wonderful day.
Paul Beaulieu
lurking and reading what i can as i am interested in the whole
unschooling concept as a person who i am considering spending the rest
of my life with is currently engaging in un-everything with her
children. my 8 year old daughter who is on the spectrum and for the
record is very high functioning has progressed very well within a
public school environment. we had her in a montessori school at first
thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
that i read about on this board. however that failed to materialize as
she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
was turning into a one trick pony. once we transferred her to a
typical public school system who, governed by federal law and baby sat
ba an attentive and educated father, gives my daughter an environment
where she is thriving and lives a wonderfully joy filled life. i find
to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive to her
but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included. i
understand that all children do not have her school experiences but i
would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
maneer of involvement of the parents. while i am inclined to believe
that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
learn and grow without incentive or direction, just as we can clearly
say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
same is true for a learning and living style like RU. I have read a
lot of things in the last week on this group and many have been quite
insightful while others are clearly based on ignorance of the human
body and its chemical make up. I am chosing to treat the group like a
chicken dinner i eat the meat and throw out the bones at this point,
however autism is an area that i have specific personal experience and
act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant. in either case it is not
something i can in good conscience let pass without comment. what i
have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this way
with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years. i hear
story after story of people who are trying this and trying that, who
have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr old even a
few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who once switched
to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically that is not
sufficient data. please direct me if there are those who can to the
long term results not the theories. I am sorry if my directness
offends any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your
feelings combined and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
work with and for her.
that said, Have a wonderful day.
Paul Beaulieu
Ren Allen
~~i have specific personal experience and
act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.~~
You are sure assuming a lot for someone with such little experience
and time at this list. Some of us DO have quite a bit of knowledge and
first hand experience with autism and other "disorders" (I don't view
them as disorders, but differences).
RU works for EVERY child because it is all about meeting the child's
needs, whatever those may be. There is no willing ignorance or an
ounce of untruth. Maybe you should get to know more of our stories and
more of the families here before you make such broad and sweeping
statements.
If you'd like to read more about an RU advocate with several autistic
children (some of them quite severely autistic) you can google Cindy
Gaddis if you care to learn just how the RU lifestyle plays out with
very distinct and intense needs.
Right here at this list, we have parents with autistic children...some
more than one who are living the RU lifestyle all while honoring their
child's unique needs.
You can't possibly understand what radical unschooling means if you
think it means leaving the child to their own devices. Stick around
and you might learn.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.~~
You are sure assuming a lot for someone with such little experience
and time at this list. Some of us DO have quite a bit of knowledge and
first hand experience with autism and other "disorders" (I don't view
them as disorders, but differences).
RU works for EVERY child because it is all about meeting the child's
needs, whatever those may be. There is no willing ignorance or an
ounce of untruth. Maybe you should get to know more of our stories and
more of the families here before you make such broad and sweeping
statements.
If you'd like to read more about an RU advocate with several autistic
children (some of them quite severely autistic) you can google Cindy
Gaddis if you care to learn just how the RU lifestyle plays out with
very distinct and intense needs.
Right here at this list, we have parents with autistic children...some
more than one who are living the RU lifestyle all while honoring their
child's unique needs.
You can't possibly understand what radical unschooling means if you
think it means leaving the child to their own devices. Stick around
and you might learn.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
however that failed to materialize as
she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
was turning into a one trick pony.
-=-=-=-
I'm sorry that's how you saw your daughter.
-=-=-=-=-
i find to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive
to her
but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included.
-=-=-
Great. I hope that doesn't change over time.
My guess is that it *will* however.
But good luck with that.
-=-=-=-
i understand that all children do not have her school experiences but
i
would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
maneer of involvement of the parents.
-==-=-
Really?
Like...maybe...a *very* involved and interested parent might be able to
make a lot of headway with such a special child? Like...maybe a parent
who was there 24/7, honoring Who The Child Is at every moment and being
present---both in body and mind---might be able to help her be her best
possible self?
Imagine that.
-=-=-=-=-
while i am inclined to believe
that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
learn and grow without incentive or direction,
-=-=-=-=-
Do you think that? That children learn and grow with NO incentive or
direction?
I've *never* met a child with no incentive and no direction. Maybe you
have, but *I* have never met a one.
-=-=-=-=-
just as we can clearly
say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
same is true for a learning and living style like RU.
-=-=-=-=-
How's that?
That some kids are "allergic" to unschooling? Allergic to natural
learning? That some kids just don't learn?
That's not my experience.
I'm having a really hard time following. Maybe I'm "not too well
equipped."
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have read a lot of things in the last week on this group and many
have been quite
insightful while others are clearly based on ignorance of the human
body and its chemical make up.
-=-=-=-
Please give me an example of my ignorance.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am chosing to treat the group like a
chicken dinner i eat the meat and throw out the bones at this point,
-=-=-=-=-
That's good.
-=-=-=-==-
however autism is an area that i have specific personal experience and
act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.
-=-=-=-=
Then this is not the place for you. You might like to try other lists
where people will buy that crap.
If you believe the writers here to be "willfully untruthful OR benignly
ignorant," then it's time for you to exit.
-=-=-=-=-
what i have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this
way
with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years.
-=-=-=-
As soon as we have 100 twenty-year-old children with autism, then
you'll listen?
Ok. Hang around and wait. And keep sending your daughter to school. Let
us know how that works out for you---in 12 years, when she's 20.
Unschooled children are *just* now becoming adults. Just these last few
years. Young children's parents are *finally* seeing that school
doesn't work with their children with autism, so they're willing to try
something that honors the child Where He Is NOW instead of relying on
the schools---schools with their "new concepts" every other year,
schools with their loud noises and bright lights and major stressors,
schools with their authority and
"this-is-the-way-we-do-it-don't-question-us-and-our-methods" attitudes.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
i hear story after story of people who are trying this and trying that,
who
have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr old even a
few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who once switched
to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically that is not
sufficient data.
-=-=-=-=-
Fine. Many parents here have HAPPY, functioning, delightful kids. With
autism. But don't let that convince you. Rely on schooled children's
stories---there are so many success stories there. <snort>
-=-=-=-
please direct me if there are those who can to the
long term results not the theories.
-=-=-=-
Please direct me to those who have anything BUT a theory.
If schools *WORKED*, all children would come out perfectly adjusted and
brilliant.
Schools are based on the *theory* that some stranger I've never met
else knows what *my* child needs to know to be Who He Is. Some theory.
-=-=-=-=-
I am sorry if my directness offends
-=-=-=-
No, your nasty, snotty condescending attitude offends and won't be
tolerated.
-=-=-=-=-
any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your feelings
combined
-=-=-=-=-
Then, by all means, keep her in school where the powers that be will
watch over her and make sure she follows their rules and agendas. Their
theories hold so much more water.
You certainly don't need us.
-=-=-=-
and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
work with and for her.
-=-=-=-
Offending a group of people who work very hard to make many children's
lives wonderful is no way to start asking for help.
Maybe my husband can be of more assistance. To quote you: we here at UB
simply "arent too well equiped to make cogent arguement for all the
complexities that are embodied with a full tilt life alteration such as
this."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
however that failed to materialize as
she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
was turning into a one trick pony.
-=-=-=-
I'm sorry that's how you saw your daughter.
-=-=-=-=-
i find to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive
to her
but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included.
-=-=-
Great. I hope that doesn't change over time.
My guess is that it *will* however.
But good luck with that.
-=-=-=-
i understand that all children do not have her school experiences but
i
would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
maneer of involvement of the parents.
-==-=-
Really?
Like...maybe...a *very* involved and interested parent might be able to
make a lot of headway with such a special child? Like...maybe a parent
who was there 24/7, honoring Who The Child Is at every moment and being
present---both in body and mind---might be able to help her be her best
possible self?
Imagine that.
-=-=-=-=-
while i am inclined to believe
that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
learn and grow without incentive or direction,
-=-=-=-=-
Do you think that? That children learn and grow with NO incentive or
direction?
I've *never* met a child with no incentive and no direction. Maybe you
have, but *I* have never met a one.
-=-=-=-=-
just as we can clearly
say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
same is true for a learning and living style like RU.
-=-=-=-=-
How's that?
That some kids are "allergic" to unschooling? Allergic to natural
learning? That some kids just don't learn?
That's not my experience.
I'm having a really hard time following. Maybe I'm "not too well
equipped."
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have read a lot of things in the last week on this group and many
have been quite
insightful while others are clearly based on ignorance of the human
body and its chemical make up.
-=-=-=-
Please give me an example of my ignorance.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am chosing to treat the group like a
chicken dinner i eat the meat and throw out the bones at this point,
-=-=-=-=-
That's good.
-=-=-=-==-
however autism is an area that i have specific personal experience and
act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.
-=-=-=-=
Then this is not the place for you. You might like to try other lists
where people will buy that crap.
If you believe the writers here to be "willfully untruthful OR benignly
ignorant," then it's time for you to exit.
-=-=-=-=-
what i have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this
way
with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years.
-=-=-=-
As soon as we have 100 twenty-year-old children with autism, then
you'll listen?
Ok. Hang around and wait. And keep sending your daughter to school. Let
us know how that works out for you---in 12 years, when she's 20.
Unschooled children are *just* now becoming adults. Just these last few
years. Young children's parents are *finally* seeing that school
doesn't work with their children with autism, so they're willing to try
something that honors the child Where He Is NOW instead of relying on
the schools---schools with their "new concepts" every other year,
schools with their loud noises and bright lights and major stressors,
schools with their authority and
"this-is-the-way-we-do-it-don't-question-us-and-our-methods" attitudes.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
i hear story after story of people who are trying this and trying that,
who
have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr old even a
few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who once switched
to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically that is not
sufficient data.
-=-=-=-=-
Fine. Many parents here have HAPPY, functioning, delightful kids. With
autism. But don't let that convince you. Rely on schooled children's
stories---there are so many success stories there. <snort>
-=-=-=-
please direct me if there are those who can to the
long term results not the theories.
-=-=-=-
Please direct me to those who have anything BUT a theory.
If schools *WORKED*, all children would come out perfectly adjusted and
brilliant.
Schools are based on the *theory* that some stranger I've never met
else knows what *my* child needs to know to be Who He Is. Some theory.
-=-=-=-=-
I am sorry if my directness offends
-=-=-=-
No, your nasty, snotty condescending attitude offends and won't be
tolerated.
-=-=-=-=-
any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your feelings
combined
-=-=-=-=-
Then, by all means, keep her in school where the powers that be will
watch over her and make sure she follows their rules and agendas. Their
theories hold so much more water.
You certainly don't need us.
-=-=-=-
and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
work with and for her.
-=-=-=-
Offending a group of people who work very hard to make many children's
lives wonderful is no way to start asking for help.
Maybe my husband can be of more assistance. To quote you: we here at UB
simply "arent too well equiped to make cogent arguement for all the
complexities that are embodied with a full tilt life alteration such as
this."
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Ren Allen
~~i hear story after story of people who are trying this and trying
that,who have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr
old even a few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who
once switched to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically
that is not sufficient data.
~~
This made me laugh out loud.
I know many grown unschoolers...in fact, several of them will be
speaking at the upcoming NE Unschooling conference including one of my
grown unschoolers AND Kelly's grown unschooler. Oh, and the unschooled
grown girlfriend of my son.
We've been educating ourselves without the school system for the
better part of my oldest child's lifetime (18) and radically
unschooling since 2000. If you need "sufficient data" rather than
analytical discussion, then this isn't the list for you.
Funny, I feel like wiggling my fingers, sticking my tongue out and
saying "ppphhhhhffffft" right now. Sign of immaturity I'm quite sure.:)
How's that for "sufficient data"?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
that,who have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr
old even a few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who
once switched to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically
that is not sufficient data.
~~
This made me laugh out loud.
I know many grown unschoolers...in fact, several of them will be
speaking at the upcoming NE Unschooling conference including one of my
grown unschoolers AND Kelly's grown unschooler. Oh, and the unschooled
grown girlfriend of my son.
We've been educating ourselves without the school system for the
better part of my oldest child's lifetime (18) and radically
unschooling since 2000. If you need "sufficient data" rather than
analytical discussion, then this isn't the list for you.
Funny, I feel like wiggling my fingers, sticking my tongue out and
saying "ppphhhhhffffft" right now. Sign of immaturity I'm quite sure.:)
How's that for "sufficient data"?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Melissa Gray
Well, Ren summed it up nicely. I second the raspberry.
You, sir, are not the only person with autism experience on the
board, and I replied to the question as the mother of FOUR CHILDREN
on the spectrum. After advocating in public schools for over six
years, not only for my children in our district, but over two dozen
others across the state, I can say I have plenty of experience in
public education for children with autism. I can also state that I
was fully and completely involved in my children's education,
spending over half of every day in the school building itself. It is
quite offensive to assume that because those children did not due
well in public schools, that the parents (myself and others) are
inattentive and uninvolved.
An involved parent is helpful, yes, but so is respect for the person
with autism (rather than calling them 'one trick ponies') and working
within their comfort level, will help them just as much as forcing
them into situations in which they feel they must change who they are
in to be respected. I KNOW several unschooling children with autism
outside of my own four, and I do know that it works very well.
Perhaps it is the parenting, as you suggest. Since you did not
unschool your daughter, and have such strong opinions against it that
it would not work, I suggest that you don't have the data to prove
that it would not work.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
You, sir, are not the only person with autism experience on the
board, and I replied to the question as the mother of FOUR CHILDREN
on the spectrum. After advocating in public schools for over six
years, not only for my children in our district, but over two dozen
others across the state, I can say I have plenty of experience in
public education for children with autism. I can also state that I
was fully and completely involved in my children's education,
spending over half of every day in the school building itself. It is
quite offensive to assume that because those children did not due
well in public schools, that the parents (myself and others) are
inattentive and uninvolved.
An involved parent is helpful, yes, but so is respect for the person
with autism (rather than calling them 'one trick ponies') and working
within their comfort level, will help them just as much as forcing
them into situations in which they feel they must change who they are
in to be respected. I KNOW several unschooling children with autism
outside of my own four, and I do know that it works very well.
Perhaps it is the parenting, as you suggest. Since you did not
unschool your daughter, and have such strong opinions against it that
it would not work, I suggest that you don't have the data to prove
that it would not work.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
On May 12, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II wrote:
> I am sorry but here i must disagree whole heartedly. I have been
> lurking and reading what i can as i am interested in the whole
> unschooling concept as a person who i am considering spending the rest
> of my life with is currently engaging in un-everything with her
> children. my 8 year old daughter who is on the spectrum and for the
> record is very high functioning has progressed very well within a
> public school environment. we had her in a montessori school at first
> thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
> gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
> that i read about on this board. however that failed to materialize as
> she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
> was turning into a one trick pony. once we transferred her to a
> typical public school system who, governed by federal law and baby sat
> ba an attentive and educated father, gives my daughter an environment
> where she is thriving and lives a wonderfully joy filled life. i find
> to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive to her
> but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included. i
> understand that all children do not have her school experiences but i
> would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
> maneer of involvement of the parents. while i am inclined to believe
> that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
> learn and grow without incentive or direction, just as we can clearly
> say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
> allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
> same is true for a learning and living style like RU. I have read a
> lot of things in the last week on this group and many have been quite
> insightful while others are clearly based on ignorance of the human
> body and its chemical make up. I am chosing to treat the group like a
> chicken dinner i eat the meat and throw out the bones at this point,
> however autism is an area that i have specific personal experience and
> act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and
> knowing
> what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
> that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
> a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
> willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant. in either case it is not
> something i can in good conscience let pass without comment. what i
> have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this way
> with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
> year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years. i hear
> story after story of people who are trying this and trying that, who
> have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr old
> even a
> few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who once
> switched
> to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically that is not
> sufficient data. please direct me if there are those who can to the
> long term results not the theories. I am sorry if my directness
> offends any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your
> feelings combined and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
> her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
> work with and for her.
>
> that said, Have a wonderful day.
>
> Paul Beaulieu
>
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 12, 2008, at 1:09 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II wrote:
a child needs and helping them get that..
parents of autistic children what their experiences were.
If you begin with "This, this and this is where you're wrong, now
prove that I'm wrong in my assumptions," it's going to be a whole lot
more difficult for you to get useful answers. People here answer
voluntarily. Why should they spend time on someone who begins from a
point of antagonism when they could spend their time on someone who
says essentially "I've done my research. This appeals to me. I some
places where I'm confused."
If you mean that kids have great experiences in school because their
parents are involved I wish that were all it took. If that were so,
schools would have found a way to tap that power long ago.
Occasionally a dynamic will work with the right mix of people, but
it's not recreatable. If that sounds ignorant, what you're saying is
that despite 10s of 1000s of educators spending their life trying to
improve schools since the tail end of the 1950's (Sputnik was the big
push), finally your school has discovered that it's parent
involvement that works. Does that sound feasible?
If you want research, try John Holt's books and read them in order.
He began with school reform. You can see the evolution of his
thoughts and why he ultimately concluded that schools can't work
because learning needs the freedom to explore. (Which, again, is more
than your idea of let them explore on their own.)
learning. Unschooling takes more parent involvement than any other
form of homeschooling.
unequivocally state that kids won't learn to read or do math without
instruction. They "know" that's true because, even with the "best
instruction" some kids succeed and some kids fail.
But, they're basing their conclusions on speculation, not knowledge.
Only unschoolers have seen what kids are capable of both with and
without direct instruction. We know the effects of each. Only
unschoolers have a control group for the experiment. Educators only
have guesses.
You'd get better answers if you sincerely ask for the experiences of
parents with autistic kids without attacking them and everyone else.
daughter is 16. She's not only an incredibly nice kid (I'm biased but
other adults have spontaneously said so :-) but living her life
towards college. She's been taking college classes since she was 11
just for fun.
It's not a fluke and it's not a crap shoot. The parenting decisions I
made have been turned over and discussed and held up for examination.
I've seen the results in my daughter and in the children of the
unschooling parents I've known for 12 years. It's not a theory. It's
critical thinking and observation.
when people ask relevant questions, not at one person's command. It's
in the archives and you can dig for it. Now, if you want to pay
someone for their time, you could make an offer! Otherwise it's more
efficient to use my time to help people who've done their own
research and aren't beginning from a point of view of "Prove it to me."
There's also the archives at:
http://groups.google.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion (it's old home)
You might also find some useful answers at my website. It's written
by a former engineer:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Any discussion, though, bring here.
hand. I've been involved with unschooling since my daughter was 4 and
many of the people I began with are still around with grown or nearly
grown kids answering questions.
demanding that people volunteer their time in a specific way to help
you could possibly help your daughter.
Ask questions in a way that shows that you're open to trying to
understand and people will be more than happy to help. Begin from a
point of view of "You're wrong and show me that you aren't," and it
isn't likely to get you very much.
Joyce
> we had her in a montessori school at firstUnschooling isn't stand back and let them go. It's awareness of what
> thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
> gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
> that i read about on this board
a child needs and helping them get that..
> however that failed to materialize asRather than seeing this as a negative, it would be helpful to ask
> she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
> was turning into a one trick pony
parents of autistic children what their experiences were.
If you begin with "This, this and this is where you're wrong, now
prove that I'm wrong in my assumptions," it's going to be a whole lot
more difficult for you to get useful answers. People here answer
voluntarily. Why should they spend time on someone who begins from a
point of antagonism when they could spend their time on someone who
says essentially "I've done my research. This appeals to me. I some
places where I'm confused."
> i findA very atypical school experience for most kids.
> to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive to her
> but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included.
> iI can only guess what the above means.
> understand that all children do not have her school experiences but i
> would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
> maneer of involvement of the parents.
If you mean that kids have great experiences in school because their
parents are involved I wish that were all it took. If that were so,
schools would have found a way to tap that power long ago.
Occasionally a dynamic will work with the right mix of people, but
it's not recreatable. If that sounds ignorant, what you're saying is
that despite 10s of 1000s of educators spending their life trying to
improve schools since the tail end of the 1950's (Sputnik was the big
push), finally your school has discovered that it's parent
involvement that works. Does that sound feasible?
If you want research, try John Holt's books and read them in order.
He began with school reform. You can see the evolution of his
thoughts and why he ultimately concluded that schools can't work
because learning needs the freedom to explore. (Which, again, is more
than your idea of let them explore on their own.)
> while i am inclined to believeSome kids are independent learners. Unschooling isn't independent
> that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
> learn and grow without incentive or direction
learning. Unschooling takes more parent involvement than any other
form of homeschooling.
> i can unequivocally sayYou can state it, but is it true? Lots of teachers would
> that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
> a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
> willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.
unequivocally state that kids won't learn to read or do math without
instruction. They "know" that's true because, even with the "best
instruction" some kids succeed and some kids fail.
But, they're basing their conclusions on speculation, not knowledge.
Only unschoolers have seen what kids are capable of both with and
without direct instruction. We know the effects of each. Only
unschoolers have a control group for the experiment. Educators only
have guesses.
You'd get better answers if you sincerely ask for the experiences of
parents with autistic kids without attacking them and everyone else.
> what iAutistic kids? Or all kids? Those stories come out over time. My
> have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this way
> with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
> year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years
daughter is 16. She's not only an incredibly nice kid (I'm biased but
other adults have spontaneously said so :-) but living her life
towards college. She's been taking college classes since she was 11
just for fun.
It's not a fluke and it's not a crap shoot. The parenting decisions I
made have been turned over and discussed and held up for examination.
I've seen the results in my daughter and in the children of the
unschooling parents I've known for 12 years. It's not a theory. It's
critical thinking and observation.
> i say scientifically that is notIf you want data, we're not going to hand it to you. It comes out
> sufficient data
when people ask relevant questions, not at one person's command. It's
in the archives and you can dig for it. Now, if you want to pay
someone for their time, you could make an offer! Otherwise it's more
efficient to use my time to help people who've done their own
research and aren't beginning from a point of view of "Prove it to me."
There's also the archives at:
http://groups.google.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion (it's old home)
You might also find some useful answers at my website. It's written
by a former engineer:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Any discussion, though, bring here.
> please direct me if there are those who can to theCome to an unschooling conference and you can see the results first
> long term results not the theories.
hand. I've been involved with unschooling since my daughter was 4 and
many of the people I began with are still around with grown or nearly
grown kids answering questions.
> I am sorry if my directnessI'm really not sure how offending people and being belligerent and
> offends any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your
> feelings combined and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
> her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
> work with and for her.
demanding that people volunteer their time in a specific way to help
you could possibly help your daughter.
Ask questions in a way that shows that you're open to trying to
understand and people will be more than happy to help. Begin from a
point of view of "You're wrong and show me that you aren't," and it
isn't likely to get you very much.
Joyce
diana jenner
> > i can unequivocally sayUnschooling always works for all children. I *can* say it. Human beings are
> > that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
> > a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
> > willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.
>
>
built to learn, it's what we *do.*
It is also true, and more important to understand, unschooling doesn't
always work for all parents (especially those who are products of the system
themselves, and *more* especially for those who liked life within the
system). It's a lot of work, it's a building of relationships where society
would have them be torn down, it's like a holistic intimacy - facilitating
joyful life in the moment. Every child brings gifts, unschooling gives us
far more opportunities to receive those gifts and appreciate them. And learn
a whole heck of a lot about your own self in the process (which seems to be
an across the board benefit to this lifestyle).
I'm lots and lots of things, including crazy and maybe a bit loud and
outspoken (just a bit :::bg:::), though *not* willfully untruthful nor
benignly ignorant. Intelligence can be bliss, too :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
guideforthree
***
i understand that all children do not have her school experiences but
i would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
maneer of involvement of the parents.
***
I took a teaching job at my son's school so I could be more
involved. His teacher is a good friend of mine - we go to each
others houses, have each other in speed dial, etc. I brought a
specialist in from Emory University to do an autism workshop with the
entire school staff. I paid an ungodly sum of money for my son to
attend a private school where he would have a 6:1 student:teacher
ratio. I fought the system to force them to provide OT for my boy.
AND you want to say I wasn't involved. In what dimension are living
that it makes it ok for you to make those kind of assumptions?
I took all of my kids out of school a little over a year ago. We
started RU last fall. I've seen an amazing improvement in my boy.
He no longer monologues about Bionicles (I guess you could say RU
cured him of being a "one trick pony," to use your phrase). His
stimming has completely dissappeared - yeah! I could go on about all
of the positive changes, but you don't really care about making a
child's life wonderful in the here and now, do you?
Don't assume you are the only person on this list with a child on the
spectrum. Don't assume you are the only one who gives a damn. Don't
assume you know everything.
Tina (who loves what RU has done for her beloved Aspie)
i understand that all children do not have her school experiences but
i would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
maneer of involvement of the parents.
***
I took a teaching job at my son's school so I could be more
involved. His teacher is a good friend of mine - we go to each
others houses, have each other in speed dial, etc. I brought a
specialist in from Emory University to do an autism workshop with the
entire school staff. I paid an ungodly sum of money for my son to
attend a private school where he would have a 6:1 student:teacher
ratio. I fought the system to force them to provide OT for my boy.
AND you want to say I wasn't involved. In what dimension are living
that it makes it ok for you to make those kind of assumptions?
I took all of my kids out of school a little over a year ago. We
started RU last fall. I've seen an amazing improvement in my boy.
He no longer monologues about Bionicles (I guess you could say RU
cured him of being a "one trick pony," to use your phrase). His
stimming has completely dissappeared - yeah! I could go on about all
of the positive changes, but you don't really care about making a
child's life wonderful in the here and now, do you?
Don't assume you are the only person on this list with a child on the
spectrum. Don't assume you are the only one who gives a damn. Don't
assume you know everything.
Tina (who loves what RU has done for her beloved Aspie)
guideforthree
***
I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this list.
How does RU work for them?
***
I think that you will find that those of us on this list who actually
are RUers are pretty damn happy with the lives our spectrum kids have.
It's amazing how any child can blossom when you learn to love him and
accept him as he is - instead of trying to fix him - because, as I am
fond of saying, my boy is not broken.
Tina
I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this list.
How does RU work for them?
***
I think that you will find that those of us on this list who actually
are RUers are pretty damn happy with the lives our spectrum kids have.
It's amazing how any child can blossom when you learn to love him and
accept him as he is - instead of trying to fix him - because, as I am
fond of saying, my boy is not broken.
Tina
Pat
*** I notice there are a number of people with autistic kids on this
list.
for my high functioning autisic son. After all, I had no previous
experience with autism and having a thorough system of teachers,
doctors and therapists on hand seemed reasonable to me at the time. I
was involved, I was informed, I was there every day. Unfortunately, I
also ended up watching my child lose confidence, joy, ability and
self-esteem while buying into the belief that the 'experts' were doing
what was best for him. Yes he learned to do schooly things, but
mostly he learned to hate who he was.
It took me longer than I care to admit, but I pulled him out of school
when I finally realized that they were not helping him, they were
deeply hurting him. He even told me this himself at some point, while
I continued to assure him that he would be fine once we completed the
next round of OT, or social skills classes, or testing, or whatever
the hell was next on the long list of these truly trial-and-error
programs.
We are now unschooling. We are just beginning to see some of the "old
Jack" return. It was almost completely wiped out by 4 years of
school. He says, "I just want things to be like they were before."
Perhaps this is not your experience with school and autism. I hope it
does not become yours. But it is ours.
Do you really think that research can tell you how your child will or
will not function in a system full of unknowns?
There is no kind of research to calculate the "facts" you are looking
for. School has not been scientifically tested against all the variables.
Pat
list.
>I, like you, initially believed that school would be good and helpful
> How does RU work for them?
> ***
for my high functioning autisic son. After all, I had no previous
experience with autism and having a thorough system of teachers,
doctors and therapists on hand seemed reasonable to me at the time. I
was involved, I was informed, I was there every day. Unfortunately, I
also ended up watching my child lose confidence, joy, ability and
self-esteem while buying into the belief that the 'experts' were doing
what was best for him. Yes he learned to do schooly things, but
mostly he learned to hate who he was.
It took me longer than I care to admit, but I pulled him out of school
when I finally realized that they were not helping him, they were
deeply hurting him. He even told me this himself at some point, while
I continued to assure him that he would be fine once we completed the
next round of OT, or social skills classes, or testing, or whatever
the hell was next on the long list of these truly trial-and-error
programs.
We are now unschooling. We are just beginning to see some of the "old
Jack" return. It was almost completely wiped out by 4 years of
school. He says, "I just want things to be like they were before."
Perhaps this is not your experience with school and autism. I hope it
does not become yours. But it is ours.
Do you really think that research can tell you how your child will or
will not function in a system full of unknowns?
There is no kind of research to calculate the "facts" you are looking
for. School has not been scientifically tested against all the variables.
Pat
Vickisue Gray
Ren...Kelly....You two, crack me up!
Thanks for hanging in there and encouraging us all to be better parents raising happy children. I've only been 'officially' unschooling for just over two and half years, so can't claim 'years' of experience, but I'm a firm believer in all that you say. I've watched the joy and wonder return to my son's life since we switched to RU. I'm so much happier, too!
Thanks!
Vicki ~ Mom to dd 18, dd 16, ds 10.5
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for hanging in there and encouraging us all to be better parents raising happy children. I've only been 'officially' unschooling for just over two and half years, so can't claim 'years' of experience, but I'm a firm believer in all that you say. I've watched the joy and wonder return to my son's life since we switched to RU. I'm so much happier, too!
Thanks!
Vicki ~ Mom to dd 18, dd 16, ds 10.5
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
I kinda agree that RU *won't* work in all families. Has nothing to do
with whether or not any/all of the children are on the autism spectrum.
Has everything to do with whether the parents are willing to put the
time and energy into changing basically everything they thought they
knew from the ground up and learn from their children. And if someone is
not able to put in the time to see each individual child as a wonderful
WHOLE being and not a set of behaviors and perseverations and whatever
other diagnostic stuff they've come up with, then it's not going to
"work". It's not a set procedure or set of instructions - it's not "do 2
hours of sitting on the floor face to face three times per week and all
will be well" It's actually pretty messy, this living life with other
people thing. Because every person is different than you are and does
things differently, sees the world differently, reacts differently.
That's not "broken" that's just different. But different gets messy. And
"more different" is more messy, so it "has to" be 'controlled' enough to
squeeze into the usual and accepted level of messiness (or does it?).
Sure, there are probably good ideas within the clinical information on
assisting people with autism be at peace within themselves and able to
cope with the big wide world and those ideas can and should be
incorporated in whatever way works best for the individuals involved.
That doesn't mean that RU and raising a child on the spectrum are
incompatible. That just means lots and lots of working, and observing,
and revising, and do-overs to find what tools are most useful for any
individual at a given time/situation.
Deb
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This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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with whether or not any/all of the children are on the autism spectrum.
Has everything to do with whether the parents are willing to put the
time and energy into changing basically everything they thought they
knew from the ground up and learn from their children. And if someone is
not able to put in the time to see each individual child as a wonderful
WHOLE being and not a set of behaviors and perseverations and whatever
other diagnostic stuff they've come up with, then it's not going to
"work". It's not a set procedure or set of instructions - it's not "do 2
hours of sitting on the floor face to face three times per week and all
will be well" It's actually pretty messy, this living life with other
people thing. Because every person is different than you are and does
things differently, sees the world differently, reacts differently.
That's not "broken" that's just different. But different gets messy. And
"more different" is more messy, so it "has to" be 'controlled' enough to
squeeze into the usual and accepted level of messiness (or does it?).
Sure, there are probably good ideas within the clinical information on
assisting people with autism be at peace within themselves and able to
cope with the big wide world and those ideas can and should be
incorporated in whatever way works best for the individuals involved.
That doesn't mean that RU and raising a child on the spectrum are
incompatible. That just means lots and lots of working, and observing,
and revising, and do-overs to find what tools are most useful for any
individual at a given time/situation.
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharissa13
Just a little confused... what is RU?
My 9 (soon to be 10) year old son has autism.
Initially, he was going to special ed classes at the
public school... kinda like kindergarten, 1/2 day 5
times a week. And there was good that did come from
it. There was negative too... but I felt at the time
that the good outweighed the bad. Then we tried to
mainstream him into regular kindergarten with a full
time aide (he's high functioning). That was when it
all went terribly south. I've been homeschooling him
ever since and I think he's doing so much better. We
don't completely unschool... as I have to push him a
little sometimes, but I try to give him as much
freedom as possible (his dad isn't happy with the
unschool approach... he thinks I'm doing it wrong and
he's worried that our son isn't learning the
requirements that all children are supposed to learn
in school).
*shrug* I think it works for us.
My 9 (soon to be 10) year old son has autism.
Initially, he was going to special ed classes at the
public school... kinda like kindergarten, 1/2 day 5
times a week. And there was good that did come from
it. There was negative too... but I felt at the time
that the good outweighed the bad. Then we tried to
mainstream him into regular kindergarten with a full
time aide (he's high functioning). That was when it
all went terribly south. I've been homeschooling him
ever since and I think he's doing so much better. We
don't completely unschool... as I have to push him a
little sometimes, but I try to give him as much
freedom as possible (his dad isn't happy with the
unschool approach... he thinks I'm doing it wrong and
he's worried that our son isn't learning the
requirements that all children are supposed to learn
in school).
*shrug* I think it works for us.
Ren Allen
~~Has everything to do with whether the parents are willing to put the
time and energy into changing basically everything they thought they
knew from the ground up and learn from their children. And if someone is
not able to put in the time to see each individual child as a wonderful
WHOLE being and not a set of behaviors and perseverations and whatever
other diagnostic stuff they've come up with, then it's not going to
"work". ~~
Exactly!
I agree completely.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
time and energy into changing basically everything they thought they
knew from the ground up and learn from their children. And if someone is
not able to put in the time to see each individual child as a wonderful
WHOLE being and not a set of behaviors and perseverations and whatever
other diagnostic stuff they've come up with, then it's not going to
"work". ~~
Exactly!
I agree completely.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
olearydeborah
Paul, if you think your daughter is doing well, fine. She is only 8.
When you get to the middle grades you may regret allowing her to
remain. I made that mistake. I could go on and on about the watered
down curriculum, etc. If you haven't read any books by John Holt,
please do so. They will help you gain perspective on the difference
between learning and being taught.
As for my son on the spectrum...taking him out of the public school
system has had an possitive impact on him. Not only is he learning in
freedom and learning at a more advanced level (his own choice) than
the "standardized curriculum" he was being fed, but he is also living
without medication.
I see my son's "perseverations" as gifts. Therein lies our difference
in philosphy. As for ASD adults Temple Grandin credits her own mother
with believing in her. I would also put Thomas Edison's mom is this
same category.
Deb
In [email protected], "Paul H. Beaulieu II"
<ballou12400@...> wrote:
When you get to the middle grades you may regret allowing her to
remain. I made that mistake. I could go on and on about the watered
down curriculum, etc. If you haven't read any books by John Holt,
please do so. They will help you gain perspective on the difference
between learning and being taught.
As for my son on the spectrum...taking him out of the public school
system has had an possitive impact on him. Not only is he learning in
freedom and learning at a more advanced level (his own choice) than
the "standardized curriculum" he was being fed, but he is also living
without medication.
I see my son's "perseverations" as gifts. Therein lies our difference
in philosphy. As for ASD adults Temple Grandin credits her own mother
with believing in her. I would also put Thomas Edison's mom is this
same category.
Deb
In [email protected], "Paul H. Beaulieu II"
<ballou12400@...> wrote:
>
> I am sorry but here i must disagree whole heartedly. I have been
> lurking and reading what i can as i am interested in the whole
> unschooling concept as a person who i am considering spending the rest
> of my life with is currently engaging in un-everything with her
> children. my 8 year old daughter who is on the spectrum and for the
> record is very high functioning has progressed very well within a
> public school environment. we had her in a montessori school at first
> thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
> gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
> that i read about on this board. however that failed to materialize as
> she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
> was turning into a one trick pony. once we transferred her to a
> typical public school system who, governed by federal law and baby sat
> ba an attentive and educated father, gives my daughter an environment
> where she is thriving and lives a wonderfully joy filled life. i find
> to my surprise the kids in her class are not only not offensive to her
> but fall over themselves to make her feel welcome and included. i
> understand that all children do not have her school experiences but i
> would say i find that in direct proportion to the involvement and
> maneer of involvement of the parents. while i am inclined to believe
> that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
> learn and grow without incentive or direction, just as we can clearly
> say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
> allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
> same is true for a learning and living style like RU. I have read a
> lot of things in the last week on this group and many have been quite
> insightful while others are clearly based on ignorance of the human
> body and its chemical make up. I am chosing to treat the group like a
> chicken dinner i eat the meat and throw out the bones at this point,
> however autism is an area that i have specific personal experience and
> act as an advocate for a number of children in my community and knowing
> what i KNOW about this neurological disorder i can unequivocally say
> that to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
> a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
> willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant. in either case it is not
> something i can in good conscience let pass without comment. what i
> have yet to see is the adult children who have been raised this way
> with RU and where are their testimonies? where are the parents of 22
> year olds who were raised this way for 20 or so of their years. i hear
> story after story of people who are trying this and trying that, who
> have been doing this for 2 3 or 5 years and have a 6 or 9 yr old even a
> few who have teens who have been raised in other ways who once switched
> to Ru are doing well after 1 year, i say scientifically that is not
> sufficient data. please direct me if there are those who can to the
> long term results not the theories. I am sorry if my directness
> offends any but my daughter is worth more to me that all of your
> feelings combined and i will gladly offend all of you if it would help
> her by helping me get to the truth of something that may work or not
> work with and for her.
>
> that said, Have a wonderful day.
>
> Paul Beaulieu
>
Paul H. Beaulieu II
Ok, here goes.
First off, I feel that I should and need to appologize for my tone in
my initial post it was combative and that really should not have
happened. My goal is not to anger anyone on or off this list/group.
I have been reading the posts on the group for answers to my questions
about unschooling, and was fustrated that I could not find answers to
some of my core concerns. This is not only new to me and change can be
a bit difficult especially since i am proposing changing from something
that i know mainly how it works to an environment i am unfamiliar
with. Also i have not experienced any personal horrors in my own life
nor in my daughters that were caused by traditional methods. I
aknowledge that US appeals to my head and my heart but am a little
skeptical without some sense of real understanding of the future.
Remember i am putting the most valuable person in my life at risk here.
please recall what it was like to make these decisions for the first
time.
Now admittedly, my awareness of my frustration level should have caused
me to stop and calm down and collect my thoughts better before writing
to an open forum.
Lastly, I would like to thank Pat, Ren, Joyce and Sharissa13 for
actually having real concrete things to say you were quite helpful.
Paul
First off, I feel that I should and need to appologize for my tone in
my initial post it was combative and that really should not have
happened. My goal is not to anger anyone on or off this list/group.
I have been reading the posts on the group for answers to my questions
about unschooling, and was fustrated that I could not find answers to
some of my core concerns. This is not only new to me and change can be
a bit difficult especially since i am proposing changing from something
that i know mainly how it works to an environment i am unfamiliar
with. Also i have not experienced any personal horrors in my own life
nor in my daughters that were caused by traditional methods. I
aknowledge that US appeals to my head and my heart but am a little
skeptical without some sense of real understanding of the future.
Remember i am putting the most valuable person in my life at risk here.
please recall what it was like to make these decisions for the first
time.
Now admittedly, my awareness of my frustration level should have caused
me to stop and calm down and collect my thoughts better before writing
to an open forum.
Lastly, I would like to thank Pat, Ren, Joyce and Sharissa13 for
actually having real concrete things to say you were quite helpful.
Paul
Deb Lewis
I'm far behind and haven't read this whole thread yet.
*** we had her in a montessori school at first
thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
that i read about on this board.***
This is an unschooling list, not a Montessori list. If you were expecting to see the benefits of unschooling while your daughter was enrolled in school that was an unrealistic expectation. You should have expected the benefits of a Montessori education (whatever those are) and if she didn't receive those then that's a matter you should take up with her school.
***however that failed to materialize as
she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
was turning into a one trick pony. ***
Lots of people specialize and do well. We may think of Stephen Hawking as a physicist or mathematics professor but he's also someone's son, husband, father, grandfather, friend. There's more to every life than what onlookers see. Sometimes parents write that their kids aren't doing anything when the truth is their kids aren't doing the kinds of things the parents think they ought to be doing. Sometimes they write and say "all he ever does is...." or something similar and in every case I've seen, after the parent writes more, we find out the kid is doing LOTS of things, just not things the parent thinks of as meaningful.
Kids who learn by immersing themselves in a certain thing until they've absorbed everything they want can look to outsiders like they're only doing one thing. But there's a lot going on in a learning mind, lots of connections being made and no matter how involved and intense a kid is they are always doing something else. They eventually stop to sleep... they eat...they visit with family members, and in doing those things, they're learning all the time, too.
"One trick pony" is pretty demeaning. I know if you'd given it more thought you could have come up with half a dozen things your daughter enjoyed doing. You might have had to look beyond the things you consider worthwhile. Maybe you don't understand yet that unschooling doesn't mean your daughter will learn school subjects. It means she'll learn what she's interested in and that may not look at all like anything you'd find in a school.
*** while i am inclined to believe
that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
learn and grow without incentive or direction, ***
What you wrote is difficult to follow but I think you're saying you believe incentive and direction must come from outside the child. Children have their own direction and pursue their own interests very well. They might need our help getting to what they want but they certainly don't need us to decide for them what they want. When a child wants something they don't need us offering up rewards or punishments. We can offer help in whatever form they need and they'll pursue what they're interested in until they've had enough.
***just as we can clearly
say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
same is true for a learning and living style like RU.***
Learning is not a histamine response.<g> It doesn't seem reasonable at all to think that since some kids have allergies that means some other kids can't learn, so maybe you meant something else. You maybe meant all kids are different and so you can't see how one thing can work for all kids. Unschooling isn't like school where someone decides what every kid should know and then tries to cram it into each kid the same way at the same time. Unschooling is living life and picking up information in a natural way. It will not look like school learning, it can't be tested for and it probably won't hit the dots on a scope and sequence chart. It's individual and natural and that's why it works for every child. Every child learns what they want to learn. It doesn't mean your daughter will have mastered algebra by the time she's fourteen. It will mean if she's interested in algebra (or knitting or rebuilding transmissions, or playing piano or making paper airplanes) she'll have the time and freedom to learn as much as she wants.
***to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.***
Autistic children will benefit from a learning environment that meets their specific needs. Just like every other kid. Unschooling lets parents meet the needs of their children. But there's a big difference between meeting the needs of a child and pacifying the worries of a parent who wants to direct a child's learning. Some parents can't get it, can't get comfortable with the idea that while kids might need our help to get to what they want they don't need us to tell them what they should want. It might be too far out of your comfort zone to let your child learn what she wants to learn in her own way and in her own time but that does not mean unschooling wouldn't work for her. It's not a methodology like you're familiar with from school. You won't get to decide what subjects are important for her to study. You get to help your daughter do what she's interested in doing.
There's good reading at www.joyfullyrejoycing.com and www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and www.natrualchild.org/articles.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*** we had her in a montessori school at first
thinking that the freedom to learn would engender a sense of self
gratification and hopefully catapult her into a state of fulfillment
that i read about on this board.***
This is an unschooling list, not a Montessori list. If you were expecting to see the benefits of unschooling while your daughter was enrolled in school that was an unrealistic expectation. You should have expected the benefits of a Montessori education (whatever those are) and if she didn't receive those then that's a matter you should take up with her school.
***however that failed to materialize as
she chose to perseverate on specific tasks and areas so much that she
was turning into a one trick pony. ***
Lots of people specialize and do well. We may think of Stephen Hawking as a physicist or mathematics professor but he's also someone's son, husband, father, grandfather, friend. There's more to every life than what onlookers see. Sometimes parents write that their kids aren't doing anything when the truth is their kids aren't doing the kinds of things the parents think they ought to be doing. Sometimes they write and say "all he ever does is...." or something similar and in every case I've seen, after the parent writes more, we find out the kid is doing LOTS of things, just not things the parent thinks of as meaningful.
Kids who learn by immersing themselves in a certain thing until they've absorbed everything they want can look to outsiders like they're only doing one thing. But there's a lot going on in a learning mind, lots of connections being made and no matter how involved and intense a kid is they are always doing something else. They eventually stop to sleep... they eat...they visit with family members, and in doing those things, they're learning all the time, too.
"One trick pony" is pretty demeaning. I know if you'd given it more thought you could have come up with half a dozen things your daughter enjoyed doing. You might have had to look beyond the things you consider worthwhile. Maybe you don't understand yet that unschooling doesn't mean your daughter will learn school subjects. It means she'll learn what she's interested in and that may not look at all like anything you'd find in a school.
*** while i am inclined to believe
that some children advance themselves by inner drive and desire to
learn and grow without incentive or direction, ***
What you wrote is difficult to follow but I think you're saying you believe incentive and direction must come from outside the child. Children have their own direction and pursue their own interests very well. They might need our help getting to what they want but they certainly don't need us to decide for them what they want. When a child wants something they don't need us offering up rewards or punishments. We can offer help in whatever form they need and they'll pursue what they're interested in until they've had enough.
***just as we can clearly
say that some children can eat peanut butter with joy and others are
allergic it is only reasonable to understand and to believe that the
same is true for a learning and living style like RU.***
Learning is not a histamine response.<g> It doesn't seem reasonable at all to think that since some kids have allergies that means some other kids can't learn, so maybe you meant something else. You maybe meant all kids are different and so you can't see how one thing can work for all kids. Unschooling isn't like school where someone decides what every kid should know and then tries to cram it into each kid the same way at the same time. Unschooling is living life and picking up information in a natural way. It will not look like school learning, it can't be tested for and it probably won't hit the dots on a scope and sequence chart. It's individual and natural and that's why it works for every child. Every child learns what they want to learn. It doesn't mean your daughter will have mastered algebra by the time she's fourteen. It will mean if she's interested in algebra (or knitting or rebuilding transmissions, or playing piano or making paper airplanes) she'll have the time and freedom to learn as much as she wants.
***to carte blanche say that this methodology would work as well for
a child with autism as one without is in my sincere opinion either
willfully untruthful or benignly ignorant.***
Autistic children will benefit from a learning environment that meets their specific needs. Just like every other kid. Unschooling lets parents meet the needs of their children. But there's a big difference between meeting the needs of a child and pacifying the worries of a parent who wants to direct a child's learning. Some parents can't get it, can't get comfortable with the idea that while kids might need our help to get to what they want they don't need us to tell them what they should want. It might be too far out of your comfort zone to let your child learn what she wants to learn in her own way and in her own time but that does not mean unschooling wouldn't work for her. It's not a methodology like you're familiar with from school. You won't get to decide what subjects are important for her to study. You get to help your daughter do what she's interested in doing.
There's good reading at www.joyfullyrejoycing.com and www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and www.natrualchild.org/articles.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~This is not only new to me and change can be
a bit difficult especially since i am proposing changing from something
that i know mainly how it works to an environment i am unfamiliar
with.~~
Believe me, you'll find a lot of understanding about that issue, many
of us have been there.
I appreciate your ability to come back after that "thrashing" and
being willing to openly discuss unschooling. I admit to having my
feathers ruffled in the first go round.:) I have a very intense child
who would probably have been diagnosed with a couple of labels but we
chose to avoid that as we felt equipped to support him without that.
I think you'll find an amazing amount of sympathy for the questions
and fears that arise when one first encounters this lifestyle. So many
of us have faced those questions, dug really deep and faced our fears.
When someone comes along and accuses us of being willingly
ignorant...well, that's a tough one to swallow after SO much
questioning, stretching, changing and being willing to go where we
weren't sure about going!
So anyway, I think if you can handle the intensity of those posts,
you'll be quite comfortable with a list designed for discussion
purposes. Oh, critical thinking highly encouraged.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
a bit difficult especially since i am proposing changing from something
that i know mainly how it works to an environment i am unfamiliar
with.~~
Believe me, you'll find a lot of understanding about that issue, many
of us have been there.
I appreciate your ability to come back after that "thrashing" and
being willing to openly discuss unschooling. I admit to having my
feathers ruffled in the first go round.:) I have a very intense child
who would probably have been diagnosed with a couple of labels but we
chose to avoid that as we felt equipped to support him without that.
I think you'll find an amazing amount of sympathy for the questions
and fears that arise when one first encounters this lifestyle. So many
of us have faced those questions, dug really deep and faced our fears.
When someone comes along and accuses us of being willingly
ignorant...well, that's a tough one to swallow after SO much
questioning, stretching, changing and being willing to go where we
weren't sure about going!
So anyway, I think if you can handle the intensity of those posts,
you'll be quite comfortable with a list designed for discussion
purposes. Oh, critical thinking highly encouraged.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
I have been reading the posts on the group for answers to my questions
about unschooling, and was fustrated that I could not find answers to
some of my core concerns.
-=-=-=--=
Then you're not looking hard enough.
We've answered all the questions and concerns you may have for years. I
bet there's not *one* we haven't heard! <g>
Have you read the archives here? Or just the last three days' worth of
messages?
Have you looked at and read through all of
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling or www.joyfullyrejoycing.com ?
Have you read Rue's book, Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life?
-=-=-=-=-
This is not only new to me and change can be
a bit difficult especially since i am proposing changing from something
that i know mainly how it works to an environment i am unfamiliar
with.
-=-=-=-=-
Just as each and every one of us has/is.
I don't think there's ONE person here who was unschooled as a child
(except my 20 year old son, who occasionally reads here). We were all
traditionally parented (some better than others), and we all went to
school (some better than others).
You are no different.
The difference is that we have walked on both sides of the fence, and
you have been only on one. *WE* have made an educated decision. *You*
are basing things on only one set of data.
-=-=-=-
Also i have not experienced any personal horrors in my own life
nor in my daughters that were caused by traditional methods.
-=-=-=-=-=-
My childhood was decent. Not as good as it could have been. Not as good
as my children's. But I was privileged in many ways. My school
experience was quite good, seeing as there was no homeschool option
back then. I have a "good education."
I bet that, when you start actually *thinking* about the childhood you
had versus the childhood you *could* have had had your parents known
better, you may feel different about your and your parents'
"traditional methods."
Had we not found this path, my boys would be in school. It's just that
we found something better. A lot better.
-=-=-=-=-
I aknowledge that US appeals to my head and my heart but am a little
skeptical without some sense of real understanding of the future.
-==-=-=-
And as soon as you can *tell* me the future, I'll buy that statement.
No one understands the future.
-==-=-=-=-
Remember i am putting the most valuable person in my life at risk here.
-=-=-=-=-
And we're not?
-=-=-=-==-
please recall what it was like to make these decisions for the first
time.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I do. And it's scary. But as soon as you *understand* it, unschooling
and mindful parenting make all the sense in the world.
You have to be open to it though. Quit fighting. Question with an open
mind---not thinking about how it *won't* work. Think about how it
*will*.
Schools work with your weaknesses. Unschooling works with your
strengths.
-=-=-=-=-
Now admittedly, my awareness of my frustration level should have caused
me to stop and calm down and collect my thoughts better before writing
to an open forum.
-=-=-=-=-
Deep breaths. Give us concrete examples.
There's really not a question you can ask that we haven't already
answered at least once.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>
I have been reading the posts on the group for answers to my questions
about unschooling, and was fustrated that I could not find answers to
some of my core concerns.
-=-=-=--=
Then you're not looking hard enough.
We've answered all the questions and concerns you may have for years. I
bet there's not *one* we haven't heard! <g>
Have you read the archives here? Or just the last three days' worth of
messages?
Have you looked at and read through all of
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling or www.joyfullyrejoycing.com ?
Have you read Rue's book, Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life?
-=-=-=-=-
This is not only new to me and change can be
a bit difficult especially since i am proposing changing from something
that i know mainly how it works to an environment i am unfamiliar
with.
-=-=-=-=-
Just as each and every one of us has/is.
I don't think there's ONE person here who was unschooled as a child
(except my 20 year old son, who occasionally reads here). We were all
traditionally parented (some better than others), and we all went to
school (some better than others).
You are no different.
The difference is that we have walked on both sides of the fence, and
you have been only on one. *WE* have made an educated decision. *You*
are basing things on only one set of data.
-=-=-=-
Also i have not experienced any personal horrors in my own life
nor in my daughters that were caused by traditional methods.
-=-=-=-=-=-
My childhood was decent. Not as good as it could have been. Not as good
as my children's. But I was privileged in many ways. My school
experience was quite good, seeing as there was no homeschool option
back then. I have a "good education."
I bet that, when you start actually *thinking* about the childhood you
had versus the childhood you *could* have had had your parents known
better, you may feel different about your and your parents'
"traditional methods."
Had we not found this path, my boys would be in school. It's just that
we found something better. A lot better.
-=-=-=-=-
I aknowledge that US appeals to my head and my heart but am a little
skeptical without some sense of real understanding of the future.
-==-=-=-
And as soon as you can *tell* me the future, I'll buy that statement.
No one understands the future.
-==-=-=-=-
Remember i am putting the most valuable person in my life at risk here.
-=-=-=-=-
And we're not?
-=-=-=-==-
please recall what it was like to make these decisions for the first
time.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I do. And it's scary. But as soon as you *understand* it, unschooling
and mindful parenting make all the sense in the world.
You have to be open to it though. Quit fighting. Question with an open
mind---not thinking about how it *won't* work. Think about how it
*will*.
Schools work with your weaknesses. Unschooling works with your
strengths.
-=-=-=-=-
Now admittedly, my awareness of my frustration level should have caused
me to stop and calm down and collect my thoughts better before writing
to an open forum.
-=-=-=-=-
Deep breaths. Give us concrete examples.
There's really not a question you can ask that we haven't already
answered at least once.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org