Radical Unschooling?
Jolene
Ive been reading through some of the messages here and I am very
confused about unschooling and radical unschoooling. I must say that
I thought that "unschooling" was a different way in teachng your
children about life and learning. I thought that it meant teaching in
your own way, not sitting at a table reading and writing and doing
work for 8 hours a day. The more I have read it seems as though
people are putting limits to unschooling as well. As saying...well if
u are a radical unschooler your children should not have chores,
bedtimes, routines or discipline...Is this true? Should we let our
children run our home? I can tell you that if my children could do
WHATEVER they wanted they would be wild. My 3 yr old would eat until
he pukes and my 4 yr old would get into so much trouble ect ect.
Should I let my kids fight and beat eachother up just to "learn" that
it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life? I am very confused here.
I let my children learn freely. They dont sit at a table or a desk
for 8 hours staright and do writing, reading, homework whatever...BUT
I do sit them at a table for maby 1/2 an hour here and there to do an
activity, paint a picture, play with playdough...or even let them
climb on my lap and read them a book. My children do have their
chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules. Im not quite
sure what this makes me or what "catagory" I fit into to. I dont
follow a curriculum, although I dont let my children run full range
of the house either. Please help me learn what exactly unschooling
and radical unschooling is. I am teaching my children the way I want
to and the way I believe they should be taught...as they are My
children. I thought that unschooling is different for each
family...we all have bounderies, even adults. SO why so much
commotion over who is a REAL unschooler and who isnt?
Jolene
confused about unschooling and radical unschoooling. I must say that
I thought that "unschooling" was a different way in teachng your
children about life and learning. I thought that it meant teaching in
your own way, not sitting at a table reading and writing and doing
work for 8 hours a day. The more I have read it seems as though
people are putting limits to unschooling as well. As saying...well if
u are a radical unschooler your children should not have chores,
bedtimes, routines or discipline...Is this true? Should we let our
children run our home? I can tell you that if my children could do
WHATEVER they wanted they would be wild. My 3 yr old would eat until
he pukes and my 4 yr old would get into so much trouble ect ect.
Should I let my kids fight and beat eachother up just to "learn" that
it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life? I am very confused here.
I let my children learn freely. They dont sit at a table or a desk
for 8 hours staright and do writing, reading, homework whatever...BUT
I do sit them at a table for maby 1/2 an hour here and there to do an
activity, paint a picture, play with playdough...or even let them
climb on my lap and read them a book. My children do have their
chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules. Im not quite
sure what this makes me or what "catagory" I fit into to. I dont
follow a curriculum, although I dont let my children run full range
of the house either. Please help me learn what exactly unschooling
and radical unschooling is. I am teaching my children the way I want
to and the way I believe they should be taught...as they are My
children. I thought that unschooling is different for each
family...we all have bounderies, even adults. SO why so much
commotion over who is a REAL unschooler and who isnt?
Jolene
Ren Allen
~~I must say that
I thought that "unschooling" was a different way in teachng your
children about life and learning. I thought that it meant teaching in
your own way, not sitting at a table reading and writing and doing
work for 8 hours a day. ~~
It's going beyond the idea that children need to be "taught" and that
they will, in a nurturing and respectful environment, learn everything
they need for life. That doesn't mean ignoring them, like you
described when they obviously need help (hitting each other is sign
that things have devolved way past the point of needing help) but it's
also not aimed at trying to control them.
What you wrote about your 4y.o. eating until he/she pukes shows a real
lack of trust. People will eat what they need, when they need it if
they aren't being externally controlled. If your child would eat until
the point of puking, then that child is VERY out of touch with their
own body already! I would think it's a huge wake up call to quit
controlling their food intake and re-learn some trust. At some point
that child will control everything about their food intake (much
sooner than you believe probably) and then what will they do without
Mom controlling their choices?
Unschooling is the trust that people will learn everything when
they're good and ready. Radical unschooling says that same trust
people apply to academics can be applied to everything in life.
Why would we trust a child to learn how to read, but NOT trust they
can learn how to eat? Why would we trust they can learn basic math
concepts by living life, but not trust they can learn basic household
tasks by living life? Learning is learning. We don't separate
different kinds of learning. It's all part of the human journey.
It doesn't mean the child doesn't have a connected and aware adult to
help them navigate all the things they are learning about. That is of
ultimate importance in this lifestyle.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
I thought that "unschooling" was a different way in teachng your
children about life and learning. I thought that it meant teaching in
your own way, not sitting at a table reading and writing and doing
work for 8 hours a day. ~~
It's going beyond the idea that children need to be "taught" and that
they will, in a nurturing and respectful environment, learn everything
they need for life. That doesn't mean ignoring them, like you
described when they obviously need help (hitting each other is sign
that things have devolved way past the point of needing help) but it's
also not aimed at trying to control them.
What you wrote about your 4y.o. eating until he/she pukes shows a real
lack of trust. People will eat what they need, when they need it if
they aren't being externally controlled. If your child would eat until
the point of puking, then that child is VERY out of touch with their
own body already! I would think it's a huge wake up call to quit
controlling their food intake and re-learn some trust. At some point
that child will control everything about their food intake (much
sooner than you believe probably) and then what will they do without
Mom controlling their choices?
Unschooling is the trust that people will learn everything when
they're good and ready. Radical unschooling says that same trust
people apply to academics can be applied to everything in life.
Why would we trust a child to learn how to read, but NOT trust they
can learn how to eat? Why would we trust they can learn basic math
concepts by living life, but not trust they can learn basic household
tasks by living life? Learning is learning. We don't separate
different kinds of learning. It's all part of the human journey.
It doesn't mean the child doesn't have a connected and aware adult to
help them navigate all the things they are learning about. That is of
ultimate importance in this lifestyle.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~My children do have their
chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but small
children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able to
join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. This list exists to
help people see how we can act as partners WITH our children, rather
than using top-down control and trust applied to only certain areas.
Unschooling is a lifestyle choice for many of us, NOT an educational
method.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but small
children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able to
join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. This list exists to
help people see how we can act as partners WITH our children, rather
than using top-down control and trust applied to only certain areas.
Unschooling is a lifestyle choice for many of us, NOT an educational
method.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Jolene Green
They dont really have "chores" like I dont MAKE them Take the garbage out everyday! OR wash my table ect...We do have a chore chart for them to get stickers on....Example...putting dirty clothes in the hamper...when it is bathtime...instead of throwing their clothes on the floor they place them in the hamper and are excited to get a sticker! I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go in the hamoer not on the floor. ANother example....putting toys away....at the end of the night, they pick up their toys and out them away and recieve a sticker. I always tag along and help them. Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get the smaller garbages from the batheroom and bedrooms...so I added them to his chore chart...at the end of the week...he gets allowence no matter how many stickers he has but I pretend that its becuase he helped me clean all week. The boys like this and I dont force them to do any chores...I ask them or remind them something needs
to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont...I just let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote: ~~My children do have their
chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but small
children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able to
join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. This list exists to
help people see how we can act as partners WITH our children, rather
than using top-down control and trust applied to only certain areas.
Unschooling is a lifestyle choice for many of us, NOT an educational
method.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont...I just let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote: ~~My children do have their
chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but small
children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able to
join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. This list exists to
help people see how we can act as partners WITH our children, rather
than using top-down control and trust applied to only certain areas.
Unschooling is a lifestyle choice for many of us, NOT an educational
method.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
They dont really have "chores" like I dont MAKE them Take the garbage out everyday! OR wash my table ect...We do have a chore chart for them to get stickers on....Example. ..putting dirty clothes in the hamper...when it is bathtime...instead of throwing their clothes on the floor they place them in the hamper and are excited to get a sticker! I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go in the hamoer not on the floor. ANother example....putting toys away....at the end of the night, they pick up their toys and out them away and recieve a sticker. I always tag along and help them. Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get the smaller garbages from the batheroom and bedrooms...so I added them to his chore chart...at the end of the week...he gets allowence no matter how many stickers he has but I pretend that its becuase he helped me clean all week. The boys like this and I dont force them to do any chores...I ask them or remind them something needs
to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont...I just let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM
Have you read Alfie Kohn Punished by Rewards?
Here is something to read :
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont...I just let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM
Have you read Alfie Kohn Punished by Rewards?
Here is something to read :
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
to them- sometimes I ask them to help me but a yes or no is
acceptable- I notice that they like to do different things- for
instance the 5 yr old LIKES to wash the walls or doors- not
something I like to but I would not make it her chore- she also
likes to organize things
my son was 13 and his chores were getting the mail, taking out trash
and emptying the dishwasher- guess what he HATES to do- BUT he will
clean up his room when he is ready and is starting to straighten up
the bathroom which is my hated thing to do- he will take out the
trash if I ask and there are a lot of bags- I am 6 months pregnant
so I need a little more help and he is happy to do it.
my husband is also chore free- he does not HAVE to help bring in
groceries though when given a choice he is happy to help me
I choose to clean the things I do and all of it gets done eventually-
they do not need chores and will help out on the things they want to-
Julie
comment me at
the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>small
> ~~My children do have their
> chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
>
> At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but
> children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able toI agree my girls are 5 and 3 and when they want to help out it is up
> join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
> child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
>
to them- sometimes I ask them to help me but a yes or no is
acceptable- I notice that they like to do different things- for
instance the 5 yr old LIKES to wash the walls or doors- not
something I like to but I would not make it her chore- she also
likes to organize things
my son was 13 and his chores were getting the mail, taking out trash
and emptying the dishwasher- guess what he HATES to do- BUT he will
clean up his room when he is ready and is starting to straighten up
the bathroom which is my hated thing to do- he will take out the
trash if I ask and there are a lot of bags- I am 6 months pregnant
so I need a little more help and he is happy to do it.
my husband is also chore free- he does not HAVE to help bring in
groceries though when given a choice he is happy to help me
I choose to clean the things I do and all of it gets done eventually-
they do not need chores and will help out on the things they want to-
Julie
comment me at
the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
Barbara Perez
Ren,Thank you for making THIS clear, as I believe it hits exactly the
question that was being asked by the OP:
I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which seems
disrespectful to me. I would have phrased that same statement perhaps as
"There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rules and
chores and discipline. They are still unschoolers." I believe that is more
of a descriptive informative statement that doesn't include either a
positive or negative judgement, therefore respecting the ability of the
reader to make up their own mind as to the (negative of positive) value of
the CHOICE of those parents to have rules and chores and discipline.
To the OP, that difference you notice is the difference between so-called
"Radical Unschooling" (which really doesn't have to do with the way kids are
or aren't "schooled" and a lot more with the way they're "parented", IMO)
and just plain old unschooling, which IMO is what that parent is, from her
own description.
I hope that clarifies things.
question that was being asked by the OP:
>>There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules andchores and discipline. They're still unschoolers.<<
I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which seems
disrespectful to me. I would have phrased that same statement perhaps as
"There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rules and
chores and discipline. They are still unschoolers." I believe that is more
of a descriptive informative statement that doesn't include either a
positive or negative judgement, therefore respecting the ability of the
reader to make up their own mind as to the (negative of positive) value of
the CHOICE of those parents to have rules and chores and discipline.
To the OP, that difference you notice is the difference between so-called
"Radical Unschooling" (which really doesn't have to do with the way kids are
or aren't "schooled" and a lot more with the way they're "parented", IMO)
and just plain old unschooling, which IMO is what that parent is, from her
own description.
I hope that clarifies things.
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> ~~My children do have their
> chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
>
> At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but small
> children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able to
> join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
> child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
>
> There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
> chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. This list exists to
> help people see how we can act as partners WITH our children, rather
> than using top-down control and trust applied to only certain areas.
>
> Unschooling is a lifestyle choice for many of us, NOT an educational
> method.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barbara Perez
Jolene,I would warn you against getting your young children "hooked" on
stickers/heavy praise/ ANY kind of EXTERNAL incentive to do what they simply
should be doing for its own sake...Everything else you're doing is fine
(being there doing it with them, giving them verbal approval at the
beginning in order to establish those good habits, BUT THEN gradually and
consistently letting THEM take responsibility on their own for those
behaviors) but you want to be careful or your intentions might backfire when
your kids stop caring for stickers and stop being interested in the act of
cleaning up after themselves. These should be INTRINSIC acts, in other
words, they should be their own reward (in that your children will get use
to having a clean room, finding their toys the next day when they go looking
for them where they belong, etc). These are not as IMMEDIATE and TANGIBLE
consequences as a sticker they get right away might be, but they are the
REAL (vs. "manipulated") consequence of the actions you're trying to
establish as habits, kiwm?
I would also warn you against using the term "chores"since it has that
negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc. Why
not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more adults
could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather than
grudgingly. No stickers necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful. Just try
breaking them from it and you'll see!
Someone else mentioned the Alfie Kohn book, Punished by rewards.I highly
recommend it. One thing that makes me CRAZY about public schools (and many
other schools, though not all) is the general attitude that kids are
learning "in order to get something else" (be it grades, praise, or other
rewards) rather than learning for its own sake.
stickers/heavy praise/ ANY kind of EXTERNAL incentive to do what they simply
should be doing for its own sake...Everything else you're doing is fine
(being there doing it with them, giving them verbal approval at the
beginning in order to establish those good habits, BUT THEN gradually and
consistently letting THEM take responsibility on their own for those
behaviors) but you want to be careful or your intentions might backfire when
your kids stop caring for stickers and stop being interested in the act of
cleaning up after themselves. These should be INTRINSIC acts, in other
words, they should be their own reward (in that your children will get use
to having a clean room, finding their toys the next day when they go looking
for them where they belong, etc). These are not as IMMEDIATE and TANGIBLE
consequences as a sticker they get right away might be, but they are the
REAL (vs. "manipulated") consequence of the actions you're trying to
establish as habits, kiwm?
I would also warn you against using the term "chores"since it has that
negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc. Why
not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more adults
could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather than
grudgingly. No stickers necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful. Just try
breaking them from it and you'll see!
Someone else mentioned the Alfie Kohn book, Punished by rewards.I highly
recommend it. One thing that makes me CRAZY about public schools (and many
other schools, though not all) is the general attitude that kids are
learning "in order to get something else" (be it grades, praise, or other
rewards) rather than learning for its own sake.
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Jolene Green <jolenegreen2@...> wrote:
> They dont really have "chores" like I dont MAKE them Take the garbage
> out everyday! OR wash my table ect...We do have a chore chart for them to
> get stickers on....Example...putting dirty clothes in the hamper...when it
> is bathtime...instead of throwing their clothes on the floor they place them
> in the hamper and are excited to get a sticker! I feel that this will teach
> them dirty clothes go in the hamoer not on the floor. ANother
> example....putting toys away....at the end of the night, they pick up their
> toys and out them away and recieve a sticker. I always tag along and help
> them. Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get the
> smaller garbages from the batheroom and bedrooms...so I added them to his
> chore chart...at the end of the week...he gets allowence no matter how many
> stickers he has but I pretend that its becuase he helped me clean all week.
> The boys like this and I dont force them to do any chores...I ask them or
> remind them something needs
> to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont...I just let
> it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?
>
> Ren Allen <starsuncloud@... <starsuncloud%40comcast.net>> wrote:
> ~~My children do have their
>
> chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.~~
>
> At three and four years of age they have CHORES? I'm sorry, but small
> children naturally want to help. Why wouldn't they just be able to
> join in when they want to help. Why place a "chore" on such a small
> child? That's a good way to take away the joy of helping!
>
> There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
> chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. This list exists to
> help people see how we can act as partners WITH our children, rather
> than using top-down control and trust applied to only certain areas.
>
> Unschooling is a lifestyle choice for many of us, NOT an educational
> method.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 9, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jolene wrote:
treat others, when solutions to problems are found that don't
compromise the relationship, then chores, bedtimes, routines and
discipline aren't needed and can be seen as incredibly disrespectful
of another human being.
How would you feel if your husband put up a big sticker chart for the
chores he assigns you to do? How would it make you feel? How would
you feel about him?
Don't think in terms of "Yeah, but I need to get them to ..." as
though the situation were different. Really think about how you'd
feel if he created chores and he watched to see what you did and put
stickers on a chart.
goals are. We each decide what philosophy we'll use to reach our goals.
So, you can if you want. It's a free country, though I can't see the
advantage. Seems a recipe for disaster to me.
aren't eating until they puke and aren't getting in trouble. So what
happened?
The thing about raising kids with principles and a partnership is
that other parents who control their kids think, "Well, yeah, you've
got good kids so of course you can do it that way. My kids would be
wild so I have to control them."
Nope. Works the other way. Kids who are raised knowing their parents
are there to help them get what they want from life *continue* to be
trustworthy kids. Kids who are controlled, who know their parents
will say no, learn that to get what they want they have to get around
their parents somehow. Their parents aren't their partners. Their
parents are their adversaries in a game of getting the kids to do
what the parents want.
be learned. It's very likely that the older, bigger one would bully
the younger, smaller one. The older would learn that to solve
problems it rocks to have power. The younger would learn that it
sucks to lack power but often the best course is to give in.
That's also, often the lesson kids learn when parents hold the power.
They learn that the best way to solve problems is to force someone to
do it your way. It's the way parents have come up with after spending
30+ years on the planet so power must be the best solution to problems.
We have the opportunity to put real problem solving into practice and
help kids figure out better ways to get what they want than forcing
someone else.
If you'd like ideas on ways to help them figure out how to solve
relationship issues you could ask here. Real scenarios work better
than hypotheticals.
Would you do that to a friend?
Why do think your kids would feel differently than an older person
about being made to do something? Aren't they humans too?
trusted to want to be a good person though sometimes she needs
suggestions on how she can approach a problem in a better way, and we
live by principles so we don't need rules.
you meet your goals?
she prefers running outside. Especially hills!
There's also:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
child molester. That's the problem with a vague philosophy. It really
doesn't help anyone figure out how to solve problems! It's sort of a
"do the best I can and after that it's a crap shoot."
Unschooling and mindful parenting philosophies are a lot more helpful
for reaching the goal of joyful living, great relationships and
thinking kids! And the results a lot more predictable.
It used to be that men would say that about their wives. Mine. Mine
to treat as I think best.
Children are tiny human beings that you have invited into your home.
Often they are treated as adults' toys to be played with when it's
convenient and put in their place when it isn't. (Children often
don't cooperate with that though!)
stamps and seals of approval and so forth -- so the label gets
applied to a lot of different ideas.
The label "organic" used to be a lot like that too until official
standards were applied. Not sure we want that ;-) but as it is,
people can use unschooling as they want to.
Originally the term was coined by John Holt. By reading his books you
can see the evolution of his thought and how he got to where he ended
up. But what he labeled was what humans were born to do: learn by
living life.
for real life boundaries. Kids see right through that. If your
husband said to you "You can't go out past 8PM," would that have the
same feel as the STOP sign at the end of the street? Kids know
arbitrary parent imposed (or even family discussed) rules aren't the
same as the real limitations of the rest of the world. And it really
ticks them off that parents treat them the same!
labeled as helpful or not helpful in building relationships and in
treating children with the respect we would give another human being.
The hardest part of extending unschooling philosophy into family life
is that parents can't conceive of what tools to use in place of
traditional tools. So they immediately assume no tools at all. "You
don't tell them no??? You don't have rules??? ...." Just because you
can't see what other tools are possible, doesn't mean the tools don't
exist!
Probably the most helpful thing you can do for yourself to figure out
unschooling is to assume we want the exact same thing for our kids as
you do. We want them to go to college if they want. We want them to
be kind and generous. We want them to be self-confident. We just have
different tools that work a whole lot better than traditional
parenting tools. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The more I have read it seems as thoughIt's not a rule. When we treat children the way we'd want them to
> people are putting limits to unschooling as well. As saying...well if
> u are a radical unschooler your children should not have chores,
> bedtimes, routines or discipline...Is this true?
treat others, when solutions to problems are found that don't
compromise the relationship, then chores, bedtimes, routines and
discipline aren't needed and can be seen as incredibly disrespectful
of another human being.
How would you feel if your husband put up a big sticker chart for the
chores he assigns you to do? How would it make you feel? How would
you feel about him?
Don't think in terms of "Yeah, but I need to get them to ..." as
though the situation were different. Really think about how you'd
feel if he created chores and he watched to see what you did and put
stickers on a chart.
> Should we let ourWe each will make our own decisions. We each get to decide what our
> children run our home?
goals are. We each decide what philosophy we'll use to reach our goals.
So, you can if you want. It's a free country, though I can't see the
advantage. Seems a recipe for disaster to me.
> I can tell you that if my children could doAnd yet kids who are raised with trust and help and without controls
> WHATEVER they wanted they would be wild. My 3 yr old would eat until
> he pukes and my 4 yr old would get into so much trouble ect ect.
aren't eating until they puke and aren't getting in trouble. So what
happened?
The thing about raising kids with principles and a partnership is
that other parents who control their kids think, "Well, yeah, you've
got good kids so of course you can do it that way. My kids would be
wild so I have to control them."
Nope. Works the other way. Kids who are raised knowing their parents
are there to help them get what they want from life *continue* to be
trustworthy kids. Kids who are controlled, who know their parents
will say no, learn that to get what they want they have to get around
their parents somehow. Their parents aren't their partners. Their
parents are their adversaries in a game of getting the kids to do
what the parents want.
> Should I let my kids fight and beat eachother up just to "learn" thatI don't thinks so because it's unlikely that's the lesson that would
> it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life?
be learned. It's very likely that the older, bigger one would bully
the younger, smaller one. The older would learn that to solve
problems it rocks to have power. The younger would learn that it
sucks to lack power but often the best course is to give in.
That's also, often the lesson kids learn when parents hold the power.
They learn that the best way to solve problems is to force someone to
do it your way. It's the way parents have come up with after spending
30+ years on the planet so power must be the best solution to problems.
We have the opportunity to put real problem solving into practice and
help kids figure out better ways to get what they want than forcing
someone else.
If you'd like ideas on ways to help them figure out how to solve
relationship issues you could ask here. Real scenarios work better
than hypotheticals.
> I am very confused here.Would you want your husband to sit you at a table and do an activity?
> I let my children learn freely. They dont sit at a table or a desk
> for 8 hours staright and do writing, reading, homework whatever...BUT
> I do sit them at a table for maby 1/2 an hour here and there to do an
> activity, paint a picture, play with playdough...or even let them
> climb on my lap and read them a book.
Would you do that to a friend?
Why do think your kids would feel differently than an older person
about being made to do something? Aren't they humans too?
> My children do have theirMy daughter has invitations to spend time with me and help, she is
> chores, they do have discipline and they do have rules.
trusted to want to be a good person though sometimes she needs
suggestions on how she can approach a problem in a better way, and we
live by principles so we don't need rules.
> Im not quiteDo you want to fit into a category or develop a philosophy that helps
> sure what this makes me or what "catagory" I fit into to.
you meet your goals?
> I dontMy daughter can run from the attic to the basement if she wants. But
> follow a curriculum, although I dont let my children run full range
> of the house either.
she prefers running outside. Especially hills!
> Please help me learn what exactly unschoolingThe archives of the list are a great place to start.
> and radical unschooling is.
There's also:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
> I am teaching my children the way I wantWell, so is everyone, from the sweetest earth mothery type to the
> to and the way I believe they should be taught...
child molester. That's the problem with a vague philosophy. It really
doesn't help anyone figure out how to solve problems! It's sort of a
"do the best I can and after that it's a crap shoot."
Unschooling and mindful parenting philosophies are a lot more helpful
for reaching the goal of joyful living, great relationships and
thinking kids! And the results a lot more predictable.
> as they are MyOne thing that helps is to not see them as possessions.
> children.
It used to be that men would say that about their wives. Mine. Mine
to treat as I think best.
Children are tiny human beings that you have invited into your home.
Often they are treated as adults' toys to be played with when it's
convenient and put in their place when it isn't. (Children often
don't cooperate with that though!)
> I thought that unschooling is different for eachThere isn't an *official* definition of unschooling -- with like
> family...
stamps and seals of approval and so forth -- so the label gets
applied to a lot of different ideas.
The label "organic" used to be a lot like that too until official
standards were applied. Not sure we want that ;-) but as it is,
people can use unschooling as they want to.
Originally the term was coined by John Holt. By reading his books you
can see the evolution of his thought and how he got to where he ended
up. But what he labeled was what humans were born to do: learn by
living life.
> we all have bounderies, even adults.We do. But often adults impose more boundaries on kids as practice
for real life boundaries. Kids see right through that. If your
husband said to you "You can't go out past 8PM," would that have the
same feel as the STOP sign at the end of the street? Kids know
arbitrary parent imposed (or even family discussed) rules aren't the
same as the real limitations of the rest of the world. And it really
ticks them off that parents treat them the same!
> SO why so muchThere isn't. No one is labeling *people*. *Ideas*, though, are
> commotion over who is a REAL unschooler and who isnt?
labeled as helpful or not helpful in building relationships and in
treating children with the respect we would give another human being.
The hardest part of extending unschooling philosophy into family life
is that parents can't conceive of what tools to use in place of
traditional tools. So they immediately assume no tools at all. "You
don't tell them no??? You don't have rules??? ...." Just because you
can't see what other tools are possible, doesn't mean the tools don't
exist!
Probably the most helpful thing you can do for yourself to figure out
unschooling is to assume we want the exact same thing for our kids as
you do. We want them to go to college if they want. We want them to
be kind and generous. We want them to be self-confident. We just have
different tools that work a whole lot better than traditional
parenting tools. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], Jolene Green
<jolenegreen2@...> wrote:
chart for them to get stickers on....Example...putting dirty clothes
in the hamper...when it is bathtime...instead of throwing their
clothes on the floor they place them in the hamper and are excited
to get a sticker! I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go
in the hamoer not on the floor. ANother example....putting toys
away....at the end of the night, they pick up their toys and out
them away and recieve a sticker. I always tag along and help them.
Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get
the smaller garbages from the batheroom and bedrooms...so I added
them to his chore chart...at the end of the week...he gets allowence
no matter how many stickers he has but I pretend that its becuase he
helped me clean all week. The boys like this and I dont force them
to do any chores...I ask them or remind them something needs
This can be accomplished without using carrots (stickers). I just
ask my 4yo ds to do something like throwing his trash away or
putting dirty clothes in the hamper. Most of the time he's happy to
do it. If he's not, I do it. No big deal. I don't need to bribe him
with stickers or candy or hugs or anything else.
I'm not sure what to do if you've always been doing this, though. It
may seem like a punishment if they suddenly don't get stickers
anymore. I guess you'd have to go through a deschooling time with
the stickers. Although, if they continue to get the allowance even
without the chore/sticker chart, it may be a non-issue.
Alysia
<jolenegreen2@...> wrote:
>garbage out everyday! OR wash my table ect...We do have a chore
> They dont really have "chores" like I dont MAKE them Take the
chart for them to get stickers on....Example...putting dirty clothes
in the hamper...when it is bathtime...instead of throwing their
clothes on the floor they place them in the hamper and are excited
to get a sticker! I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go
in the hamoer not on the floor. ANother example....putting toys
away....at the end of the night, they pick up their toys and out
them away and recieve a sticker. I always tag along and help them.
Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get
the smaller garbages from the batheroom and bedrooms...so I added
them to his chore chart...at the end of the week...he gets allowence
no matter how many stickers he has but I pretend that its becuase he
helped me clean all week. The boys like this and I dont force them
to do any chores...I ask them or remind them something needs
> to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont...Ijust let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?
This can be accomplished without using carrots (stickers). I just
ask my 4yo ds to do something like throwing his trash away or
putting dirty clothes in the hamper. Most of the time he's happy to
do it. If he's not, I do it. No big deal. I don't need to bribe him
with stickers or candy or hugs or anything else.
I'm not sure what to do if you've always been doing this, though. It
may seem like a punishment if they suddenly don't get stickers
anymore. I guess you'd have to go through a deschooling time with
the stickers. Although, if they continue to get the allowance even
without the chore/sticker chart, it may be a non-issue.
Alysia
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Jolene Green
<jolenegreen2@...> wrote:
Why not just say "thank you" and have lots of stickers on hand,
since the kids like stickers?
*********************
Well, really, do you have to "teach" this? Tell them what you'd like
them to do, explain if it seems to help, thank them when they do it
and pick the clothes up yourself otherwise. And buy lots of
stickers, since they like stickers.
**********************
That doesn't sound like a particularly good way to build trust, to
me. Its pretty convoluted - either the kids eventually figure out
that the allowance has nothing to do with chores (so much for mom as
trustworthy) or at some point the allowance *becomes* linked to the
chores in your mind, too, and you have a reward/punishment system
set up.
worth the bother. That's what reward systems ultimately "teach".
Kids don't need rewards to help out - I have a 14yr old stepson who
transitioned from a traditional school family to our radical
unschooling home a year and a half ago. He has no chores. There are
no "rewards" and any money etc he gets from us is totally unrelated
to anything he does. But over time he has started helping out around
the house. Why shouldn't he? Its his home.
My 6yo has "always" been unschooled. She has no chores and we don't
do any kinds of rewards at all. Sometimes she picks up, or washes
some dishes, or folds and puts away laundry, or feeds the pets.
Sometimes we ask her, other times she sees something needs to be
done and decides to do it. Its not the picture-perfect child putting
away toys every night, for sure, but its totally voluntary on her
part, and that's marvelous to me.
I wanted to address this from the earlier post:
it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life?
***************************************
My stepson lived with rules and discipline. And yet, he was one of
those kids who was always in trouble. Eventually, the school was in
the process of expelling him and he pulled a knife on his mom's
boyfriend and she sent him to live with us. Now he lives with no
rules - just those principles that Joyce and others have mentioned.
They aren't "applied" to him in the ways rules are applied, its a
different way of thinking, really.
My partner and I value mutual support, for example, so we support
each other and our kids as best we can - and over time Ray has
started to be supportive of us and Mo, too. We value kindness and
respectfulness, so we are kind to the kids and each other, we
respect each others ideas and wants and wishes and try to honor
them - the kids' too. And so a 14yo "troublemaker" is now kind and
gracious and respectful of others' ideas and wants and wishes. Why
would this be? Bc he lives in the middle of these values (or
principles) and knows how it feels to be treated this way. It feels
good. It meets some of his own, human needs for connection and
feeling loved and valued. And that lets him turn around and offer
the same goodness to others.
That's how "principles" work. Its a different mindset from rules.
Its not that I'm kind as a way to "get" my kids to be kind - but I
know that when people are kind to me I'm motivated to be kind to
others and I trust that other people, the people in my family in
particular, will respond the same way.
Okay, so tying that back in with the "chores" thing - in an
environment of mutual supportiveness, people want to help one
another and look for ways to do that. Even kid-people! They don't
always have the energy to be helpful and supportive, though. Little
kids, especially, use a whole lot of their daily energy just meeting
their internal needs - there are just sooooooo many things they need
help with. If they don't get enough help (and "enough" varies with
the kid, the day, hunger, tireness....) they aren't able to turn
around and be helpful very well.
The difference between radical unschooling and more traditional
parenting is that when kids aren't feeling up to being helpful, its
an invitation to unschooling parents to practice some more of those
lovely principles, like kindness and grace and compassion. In
traditional parenting, its time for a lesson. It might be a gentle,
subtle lesson, like no offer of a sticker, but its still not a kind,
compassionate response to a small person who just isn't up for
putting his socks in the hamper today.
I'm not trying to say you're some kind of big meanie! It sounds like
you are trying to keep the "lesson" as kind as possible. What I'm
saying is that you don't need lessons at all. Its a different way of
looking at the whole picture.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
<jolenegreen2@...> wrote:
>I dont force them to do any chores...I ask them or remind themsomething needs
> to be done and if they do it they get a sticker************************
Why not just say "thank you" and have lots of stickers on hand,
since the kids like stickers?
>I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go in the hamoer noton the floor.
*********************
Well, really, do you have to "teach" this? Tell them what you'd like
them to do, explain if it seems to help, thank them when they do it
and pick the clothes up yourself otherwise. And buy lots of
stickers, since they like stickers.
>he gets allowence no matter how many stickers he has but I pretendthat its becuase he helped me clean all week.
**********************
That doesn't sound like a particularly good way to build trust, to
me. Its pretty convoluted - either the kids eventually figure out
that the allowance has nothing to do with chores (so much for mom as
trustworthy) or at some point the allowance *becomes* linked to the
chores in your mind, too, and you have a reward/punishment system
set up.
>I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?You don't have to say it. They notice. Sometimes the reward isn't
worth the bother. That's what reward systems ultimately "teach".
Kids don't need rewards to help out - I have a 14yr old stepson who
transitioned from a traditional school family to our radical
unschooling home a year and a half ago. He has no chores. There are
no "rewards" and any money etc he gets from us is totally unrelated
to anything he does. But over time he has started helping out around
the house. Why shouldn't he? Its his home.
My 6yo has "always" been unschooled. She has no chores and we don't
do any kinds of rewards at all. Sometimes she picks up, or washes
some dishes, or folds and puts away laundry, or feeds the pets.
Sometimes we ask her, other times she sees something needs to be
done and decides to do it. Its not the picture-perfect child putting
away toys every night, for sure, but its totally voluntary on her
part, and that's marvelous to me.
I wanted to address this from the earlier post:
>my 4 yr old would get into so much trouble ect ect.Should I let my kids fight and beat eachother up just to "learn" that
it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life?
***************************************
My stepson lived with rules and discipline. And yet, he was one of
those kids who was always in trouble. Eventually, the school was in
the process of expelling him and he pulled a knife on his mom's
boyfriend and she sent him to live with us. Now he lives with no
rules - just those principles that Joyce and others have mentioned.
They aren't "applied" to him in the ways rules are applied, its a
different way of thinking, really.
My partner and I value mutual support, for example, so we support
each other and our kids as best we can - and over time Ray has
started to be supportive of us and Mo, too. We value kindness and
respectfulness, so we are kind to the kids and each other, we
respect each others ideas and wants and wishes and try to honor
them - the kids' too. And so a 14yo "troublemaker" is now kind and
gracious and respectful of others' ideas and wants and wishes. Why
would this be? Bc he lives in the middle of these values (or
principles) and knows how it feels to be treated this way. It feels
good. It meets some of his own, human needs for connection and
feeling loved and valued. And that lets him turn around and offer
the same goodness to others.
That's how "principles" work. Its a different mindset from rules.
Its not that I'm kind as a way to "get" my kids to be kind - but I
know that when people are kind to me I'm motivated to be kind to
others and I trust that other people, the people in my family in
particular, will respond the same way.
Okay, so tying that back in with the "chores" thing - in an
environment of mutual supportiveness, people want to help one
another and look for ways to do that. Even kid-people! They don't
always have the energy to be helpful and supportive, though. Little
kids, especially, use a whole lot of their daily energy just meeting
their internal needs - there are just sooooooo many things they need
help with. If they don't get enough help (and "enough" varies with
the kid, the day, hunger, tireness....) they aren't able to turn
around and be helpful very well.
The difference between radical unschooling and more traditional
parenting is that when kids aren't feeling up to being helpful, its
an invitation to unschooling parents to practice some more of those
lovely principles, like kindness and grace and compassion. In
traditional parenting, its time for a lesson. It might be a gentle,
subtle lesson, like no offer of a sticker, but its still not a kind,
compassionate response to a small person who just isn't up for
putting his socks in the hamper today.
I'm not trying to say you're some kind of big meanie! It sounds like
you are trying to keep the "lesson" as kind as possible. What I'm
saying is that you don't need lessons at all. Its a different way of
looking at the whole picture.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
Ren Allen
~~I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which
seems disrespectful to me.~~
Then it seems disrespectful to you.
I won't feign respect for some practice I have no respect for.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
seems disrespectful to me.~~
Then it seems disrespectful to you.
I won't feign respect for some practice I have no respect for.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> Should we let ourNobody "runs" our home. We work together for the common good.
> children run our home?~~
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~Have you read Alfie Kohn Punished by Rewards?
Here is something to read :
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm~~
I just wanted to second that recommendation.
Rewards and punishments damage that powerful inner voice we all have.
I would rather trust it in my children. I'm still reclaiming my
connection to self after all these years and I don't want them to
think they need rewards to simply DO what they want to do, or use
rewards to manipulate behavior. Because that's what a reward or
punishment is really about.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Here is something to read :
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm~~
I just wanted to second that recommendation.
Rewards and punishments damage that powerful inner voice we all have.
I would rather trust it in my children. I'm still reclaiming my
connection to self after all these years and I don't want them to
think they need rewards to simply DO what they want to do, or use
rewards to manipulate behavior. Because that's what a reward or
punishment is really about.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
barefootmamax4
--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
and choosing something intentionally. I too liked the way Ren worded
it, and I see it as more of an evolving into whole life unschooling.
I have been moving toward it, but it has taken me a while to
recognize some things that are MY limits and issues, and more time to
trust enough to let go of them.
To be above "clinginess" is like a pridefull thing, like saying "well
I'm there and your just not yet,so I am above you somehow". Does
unschooling have levels like Karate? Is an unschooling master
completely free of cling? It's not a bad kind of pride to know that
you are good at something and take pleasure in that, but it is a bad
kind of pride if you use that talent to place yourself above others
instead of using you skill to help others get where you are.
For seeing clingy in a negative...I know I see my little children
as "clingy", and have never felt that the need or the word was
negative, just descriptive of the need to be closely held, like how
saran wrap is clingy. It's not negative, it just means "holding on
to". Well,just my 2 cents anyway.
-Kelly
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>the
> Ren,Thank you for making THIS clear, as I believe it hits exactly
> question that was being asked by the OP:seems
> >>There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules and
> chores and discipline. They're still unschoolers.<<
>
> I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which
> disrespectful to me. I would have phrased that same statementperhaps as
> "There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rulesand
> chores and discipline.I think there is a difference in clinging to something for security
and choosing something intentionally. I too liked the way Ren worded
it, and I see it as more of an evolving into whole life unschooling.
I have been moving toward it, but it has taken me a while to
recognize some things that are MY limits and issues, and more time to
trust enough to let go of them.
To be above "clinginess" is like a pridefull thing, like saying "well
I'm there and your just not yet,so I am above you somehow". Does
unschooling have levels like Karate? Is an unschooling master
completely free of cling? It's not a bad kind of pride to know that
you are good at something and take pleasure in that, but it is a bad
kind of pride if you use that talent to place yourself above others
instead of using you skill to help others get where you are.
For seeing clingy in a negative...I know I see my little children
as "clingy", and have never felt that the need or the word was
negative, just descriptive of the need to be closely held, like how
saran wrap is clingy. It's not negative, it just means "holding on
to". Well,just my 2 cents anyway.
-Kelly
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Jolene <jolenegreen2@...>
Ive been reading through some of the messages here and I am very
confused about unschooling and radical unschoooling. I must say that
I thought that "unschooling" was a different way in teachng your
children about life and learning.
-=-=-=-
It is. Kind of. It's a different way to *LOOK* at life and learning.
We'll leave "teaching" for the schools. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I thought that it meant teaching in
your own way, not sitting at a table reading and writing and doing
work for 8 hours a day.
-=-=-=-=-
Well, how about "Learning" in your own way? Or "allowing your child to
learn in his own way"?
-=-=-=-=-=-
The more I have read it seems as though
people are putting limits to unschooling as well.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think of them as "limits" at all.
In your first statement you wrote: "a different way in teaching your
children about life and learning."
I think it's more about not *separating* life and learning.
Living is learning is unschooling is living is learning is unschooling
is....
-=-=-=-=-
As saying...well if
u are a radical unschooler your children should not have chores,
bedtimes, routines or discipline...Is this true?
-=-=-==-=-
I think that, if I believe if *all* learning is valuable and if I
believe that children learn what's important to them when they're ready
and if I believe that children need to listen to their bodies and if I
believe that children want to be the best person they can be, why would
they need chores, bedtimes, or other arbitrary rules imposed by me?
Routines are natural for some people---they impose them on themselves.
I wouldn't impose a routine on someone else.
Discipline---hmmmm..what do you mean by discipline?
To learn? The Latin, '"discere" means to learn. But it has a lot of
meanings in our society. If you mean "training them to behave"---then
no, I don't think children should be "disciplined." If you mean
spanked, then definitely not. What do you mean by "discipline"?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Should we let our children run our home?
-=-=-=-
I *really* liked Joyce's answer. <G>
Do you think my children run my home?
Do you think I'm suggesting that you do that?
Ours is a pretty peaceful, joyful household. Really.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I can tell you that if my children could do
WHATEVER they wanted they would be wild.
-=-=-=-=-
I sent this to Sandra's "If I Let" page.
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
Why would you have such negative thoughts about your children?
*I* do whatever *I* want. So does my husband. So do my boys, 12 & 20
years old. We work *together* so that all of *can* do whatever we want.
That's the GOAL!
-=-=-=-=-
My 3 yr old would eat until
he pukes and my 4 yr old would get into so much trouble ect ect.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope 1) that you don't really think that, and 2) that you could start
seeing them for the amazing children they are.
-=-=-===-=-
Should I let my kids fight and beat eachother up just to "learn" that
it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Why would you allow anyone to hurt one of your children???
Why do you think they would choose to beat each other up?
I think they know what hurts them and what doesn't, for the most part.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am very confused here.
-=-=-=-=-
So I see.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I let my children learn freely.
-=-=-=-=-
Only certain things?
Only academics?
Do you believe that they are incapable of learning to eat, sleep,
clean, help without your direct control?
Why?
Why aren't those things *just* as natural to learn as algebra and
Shakespeare?
-=-=-=-=-=-
They dont sit at a table or a desk
for 8 hours staright and do writing, reading, homework whatever...BUT
I do sit them at a table for maby 1/2 an hour here and there to do an
activity, paint a picture, play with playdough...or even let them
climb on my lap and read them a book.
-=-=-=-
You "sit them"---you mean you *make them*?
You don't think they'd choose to do that just for fun?
-=-=-=-=-
My children do have their chores,
-=-=-=-
At three and four years old???
-=-=-=-=-=-
they do have discipline and they do have rules.
-=-=-=-=-=-
My children have trust and respect and principles.
-=-=-=-=-
Im not quite sure what this makes me or what "catagory" I fit into to.
-=-=-=-=-
Are you looking to fit into a category?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I dont follow a curriculum, although I dont let my children run full
range
of the house either.
-=-=-=-=-
Do you think a three year old and a four year old NEED a curriculum?
Aren't they a little young?---even for die-hard schoolers?
I think three and four year olds should just be playing. But *I* think
12 year olds and 20 year olds should just be playing too. <BWG>
And I don't think I could've kept mine out of the house if I'd tried
(which I didn't).
-=-=-=-==-=-
Please help me learn what exactly unschooling
and radical unschooling is.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Unschooling was coined by John Holt, who wrote about freeing children
to play and learn in their own time in their own ways.
Radical unschooling is about learning *everything* naturally---by trial
and error, by modeling, by DOing, by asking for help, by observing.
It's about understanding that children are learning machines and don't
need arbitrary rules imposed by adults to make their way through the
world. They need guidance and assistance. They need partners, not
dictators.
The owners and moderators of this list---and many contributing members)
are radical unschooling parents. We really do believe that children are
extremely capable beings who *want* to be the best people they can be.
They *want* to learn---that they're hard-wired to learn and to be a
part of society.
-=-=-=-=-
I am teaching my children the way I want
to and the way I believe they should be taught...
-=-=-=-=-=-
As are all of us.
-=-=-=-=-
as they are My children.
-=-=-=-
Who was it that suggested not treating them as possessions? Joyce again?
I think that's really important. They are *in your care*. But you don't
own them. The decisions *you* make *for* them today can backfire if you
don't put a lot of thought into why and how.
*This* list is a place to question a lot of parenting and educational
practices that most people take for granted. A lot---*most* of
us---have questioned how we were reared and how we were educated and
believe we have found a better and more respectful way of living with
our children.
You certainly don't have to subscribe to radical unschooling to read
here! But this list is meant to help parents make those changes that
will allow a more trusting, respectful relationship with their kids.
-=-=-=-
I thought that unschooling is different for each family...
-=-=-=-=-
It is. But the underlying principles look the same: Children will
learn. Trust them. Respect them.
-=-=-=-=-=-
we all have bounderies, even adults.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Adults should have a bit more control over their own selves and their
boundaries, don't you think? We've had a lot more years on this planet
to figure things out. Kids need more leeway to work out issues. They're
*new* here.
-=-=-=-=-
SO why so much
commotion over who is a REAL unschooler and who isnt?
-=-=-=-=-
When I first read that, I thought---"what is she talking about? Are we
having that conversation aGAIN?" Then I realized that Jodi posted about
the "unschoolers" in her city.
If/When you make these radical changes of trusting and respecting
children, it makes it hard to be around those who don't. Really, really
hard.
I choose to make huge efforts to BE with other radical unschoolers. I
know they will be nice to my kids and treat them as humans as opposed
to a couple of grubs, waiting to become human. I know they won't talk
down to my boys. I know they will understand when there's a meltdown
(because they understand that the child NEEDS something, not that he's
just spoiled or manipulative). I kow they will be fun and seek JOY in
every action and not worry what others think of them (in a good way).
They're simply more FUN to be with!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Jolene <jolenegreen2@...>
Ive been reading through some of the messages here and I am very
confused about unschooling and radical unschoooling. I must say that
I thought that "unschooling" was a different way in teachng your
children about life and learning.
-=-=-=-
It is. Kind of. It's a different way to *LOOK* at life and learning.
We'll leave "teaching" for the schools. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I thought that it meant teaching in
your own way, not sitting at a table reading and writing and doing
work for 8 hours a day.
-=-=-=-=-
Well, how about "Learning" in your own way? Or "allowing your child to
learn in his own way"?
-=-=-=-=-=-
The more I have read it seems as though
people are putting limits to unschooling as well.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think of them as "limits" at all.
In your first statement you wrote: "a different way in teaching your
children about life and learning."
I think it's more about not *separating* life and learning.
Living is learning is unschooling is living is learning is unschooling
is....
-=-=-=-=-
As saying...well if
u are a radical unschooler your children should not have chores,
bedtimes, routines or discipline...Is this true?
-=-=-==-=-
I think that, if I believe if *all* learning is valuable and if I
believe that children learn what's important to them when they're ready
and if I believe that children need to listen to their bodies and if I
believe that children want to be the best person they can be, why would
they need chores, bedtimes, or other arbitrary rules imposed by me?
Routines are natural for some people---they impose them on themselves.
I wouldn't impose a routine on someone else.
Discipline---hmmmm..what do you mean by discipline?
To learn? The Latin, '"discere" means to learn. But it has a lot of
meanings in our society. If you mean "training them to behave"---then
no, I don't think children should be "disciplined." If you mean
spanked, then definitely not. What do you mean by "discipline"?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Should we let our children run our home?
-=-=-=-
I *really* liked Joyce's answer. <G>
Do you think my children run my home?
Do you think I'm suggesting that you do that?
Ours is a pretty peaceful, joyful household. Really.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I can tell you that if my children could do
WHATEVER they wanted they would be wild.
-=-=-=-=-
I sent this to Sandra's "If I Let" page.
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
Why would you have such negative thoughts about your children?
*I* do whatever *I* want. So does my husband. So do my boys, 12 & 20
years old. We work *together* so that all of *can* do whatever we want.
That's the GOAL!
-=-=-=-=-
My 3 yr old would eat until
he pukes and my 4 yr old would get into so much trouble ect ect.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope 1) that you don't really think that, and 2) that you could start
seeing them for the amazing children they are.
-=-=-===-=-
Should I let my kids fight and beat eachother up just to "learn" that
it hurts and it is NOT ACCECCPTABLE in life?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Why would you allow anyone to hurt one of your children???
Why do you think they would choose to beat each other up?
I think they know what hurts them and what doesn't, for the most part.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am very confused here.
-=-=-=-=-
So I see.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I let my children learn freely.
-=-=-=-=-
Only certain things?
Only academics?
Do you believe that they are incapable of learning to eat, sleep,
clean, help without your direct control?
Why?
Why aren't those things *just* as natural to learn as algebra and
Shakespeare?
-=-=-=-=-=-
They dont sit at a table or a desk
for 8 hours staright and do writing, reading, homework whatever...BUT
I do sit them at a table for maby 1/2 an hour here and there to do an
activity, paint a picture, play with playdough...or even let them
climb on my lap and read them a book.
-=-=-=-
You "sit them"---you mean you *make them*?
You don't think they'd choose to do that just for fun?
-=-=-=-=-
My children do have their chores,
-=-=-=-
At three and four years old???
-=-=-=-=-=-
they do have discipline and they do have rules.
-=-=-=-=-=-
My children have trust and respect and principles.
-=-=-=-=-
Im not quite sure what this makes me or what "catagory" I fit into to.
-=-=-=-=-
Are you looking to fit into a category?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I dont follow a curriculum, although I dont let my children run full
range
of the house either.
-=-=-=-=-
Do you think a three year old and a four year old NEED a curriculum?
Aren't they a little young?---even for die-hard schoolers?
I think three and four year olds should just be playing. But *I* think
12 year olds and 20 year olds should just be playing too. <BWG>
And I don't think I could've kept mine out of the house if I'd tried
(which I didn't).
-=-=-=-==-=-
Please help me learn what exactly unschooling
and radical unschooling is.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Unschooling was coined by John Holt, who wrote about freeing children
to play and learn in their own time in their own ways.
Radical unschooling is about learning *everything* naturally---by trial
and error, by modeling, by DOing, by asking for help, by observing.
It's about understanding that children are learning machines and don't
need arbitrary rules imposed by adults to make their way through the
world. They need guidance and assistance. They need partners, not
dictators.
The owners and moderators of this list---and many contributing members)
are radical unschooling parents. We really do believe that children are
extremely capable beings who *want* to be the best people they can be.
They *want* to learn---that they're hard-wired to learn and to be a
part of society.
-=-=-=-=-
I am teaching my children the way I want
to and the way I believe they should be taught...
-=-=-=-=-=-
As are all of us.
-=-=-=-=-
as they are My children.
-=-=-=-
Who was it that suggested not treating them as possessions? Joyce again?
I think that's really important. They are *in your care*. But you don't
own them. The decisions *you* make *for* them today can backfire if you
don't put a lot of thought into why and how.
*This* list is a place to question a lot of parenting and educational
practices that most people take for granted. A lot---*most* of
us---have questioned how we were reared and how we were educated and
believe we have found a better and more respectful way of living with
our children.
You certainly don't have to subscribe to radical unschooling to read
here! But this list is meant to help parents make those changes that
will allow a more trusting, respectful relationship with their kids.
-=-=-=-
I thought that unschooling is different for each family...
-=-=-=-=-
It is. But the underlying principles look the same: Children will
learn. Trust them. Respect them.
-=-=-=-=-=-
we all have bounderies, even adults.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Adults should have a bit more control over their own selves and their
boundaries, don't you think? We've had a lot more years on this planet
to figure things out. Kids need more leeway to work out issues. They're
*new* here.
-=-=-=-=-
SO why so much
commotion over who is a REAL unschooler and who isnt?
-=-=-=-=-
When I first read that, I thought---"what is she talking about? Are we
having that conversation aGAIN?" Then I realized that Jodi posted about
the "unschoolers" in her city.
If/When you make these radical changes of trusting and respecting
children, it makes it hard to be around those who don't. Really, really
hard.
I choose to make huge efforts to BE with other radical unschoolers. I
know they will be nice to my kids and treat them as humans as opposed
to a couple of grubs, waiting to become human. I know they won't talk
down to my boys. I know they will understand when there's a meltdown
(because they understand that the child NEEDS something, not that he's
just spoiled or manipulative). I kow they will be fun and seek JOY in
every action and not worry what others think of them (in a good way).
They're simply more FUN to be with!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Jolene Green <jolenegreen2@...>
.Example...putting dirty clothes in the hamper...when it is
bathtime...instead of throwing their clothes on the floor they place
them in the
hamper and are excited to get a sticker!
-=-=-=-=-
Do you get stickers for putting laundry in the hamper?
Why not?
-=-=-=-=-
I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go in the hamoer not on
the floor.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe.
Maybe it'll teach them to do *anything* to get stickers. Maybe it'll
teach them eventually that no number of stickers are worth putting
clothes into hampers.
I just asked my boys to please put clothes in the hamper. And they
watch me and Ben put clothes in the hampers.
At 20, Cam puts *all* his clothes in the hamper. At 12, Duncan put
*most* of his in. <g> But that's OK---he's still learning. I pick up
after him, and he remembers sometimes that he forgot.
-=-=-=-=-
ANother example....putting toys
away....at the end of the night, they pick up their toys and out them
away and
recieve a sticker.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Have you read Alfie Kohn's Punished By Rewards? It should be at the top
of your library queue.
If the boys like stickers, buy a BUNCH and let them have at it!
-=-=-=-=-
I always tag along and help them.
-=-=-=-
Mine often tag along and help me.
-=-=-=-=-
Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get the
smaller garbages from the
batheroom and bedrooms...so I added them to his chore chart...at the
end of the
week...he gets allowence no matter how many stickers he has but I
pretend that
its becuase he helped me clean all week.
-=-=-=-
Isn't "pretending" kind of like *lying*?
Cameron is a recycling NUT. He's taken over the garbage detail because
Ben and I tend to throw out more recyclables than he's comfortable with.
-=-=-=-=-
The boys like this and I dont force
them to do any chores...I ask them or remind them something needs
to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont..
-=-=-=-=-
If your husband asked you to do a few chores (but *asked* rather than
*forced*) but only gave you a kiss when you DID do the things and no
kiss if you didn't....how would you feel?
-=-=-=-=-
I just let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe.
But don't you think they are getting a few messages you're not meaning
to send?
Kids are pretty smart.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Jolene Green <jolenegreen2@...>
.Example...putting dirty clothes in the hamper...when it is
bathtime...instead of throwing their clothes on the floor they place
them in the
hamper and are excited to get a sticker!
-=-=-=-=-
Do you get stickers for putting laundry in the hamper?
Why not?
-=-=-=-=-
I feel that this will teach them dirty clothes go in the hamoer not on
the floor.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe.
Maybe it'll teach them to do *anything* to get stickers. Maybe it'll
teach them eventually that no number of stickers are worth putting
clothes into hampers.
I just asked my boys to please put clothes in the hamper. And they
watch me and Ben put clothes in the hampers.
At 20, Cam puts *all* his clothes in the hamper. At 12, Duncan put
*most* of his in. <g> But that's OK---he's still learning. I pick up
after him, and he remembers sometimes that he forgot.
-=-=-=-=-
ANother example....putting toys
away....at the end of the night, they pick up their toys and out them
away and
recieve a sticker.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Have you read Alfie Kohn's Punished By Rewards? It should be at the top
of your library queue.
If the boys like stickers, buy a BUNCH and let them have at it!
-=-=-=-=-
I always tag along and help them.
-=-=-=-
Mine often tag along and help me.
-=-=-=-=-
Trenton does help with laundry and on garbage day he likes to get the
smaller garbages from the
batheroom and bedrooms...so I added them to his chore chart...at the
end of the
week...he gets allowence no matter how many stickers he has but I
pretend that
its becuase he helped me clean all week.
-=-=-=-
Isn't "pretending" kind of like *lying*?
Cameron is a recycling NUT. He's taken over the garbage detail because
Ben and I tend to throw out more recyclables than he's comfortable with.
-=-=-=-=-
The boys like this and I dont force
them to do any chores...I ask them or remind them something needs
to be done and if they do it they get a sticker if they dont..
-=-=-=-=-
If your husband asked you to do a few chores (but *asked* rather than
*forced*) but only gave you a kiss when you DID do the things and no
kiss if you didn't....how would you feel?
-=-=-=-=-
I just let it be...I dont say...WELL NOW U DONT GET A STICKER...KWIM?
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe.
But don't you think they are getting a few messages you're not meaning
to send?
Kids are pretty smart.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
Ren,Thank you for making THIS clear, as I believe it hits exactly the
question that was being asked by the OP:
-=-=-=-=-=-
Ren realizes that there are many people who call themselves
"unschoolers" and who simply don't buy curricula---they still require a
lot of schoolwork from their kids, but they don't *BUY* curricula. She
also realizes that there are people who call themselves "unschoolers"
and who "unschool" everything but math and reading. She realizes that
there are *plenty* of people who call themselves "unschoolers" and who
require chores, limits foods, enforce bedtimes, and have lots of rules.
Ren and I will be speaking at the New England Conference later this
month about how *we* don't think that works so well. "It Ain't Just
About Academics" will cover topics like chores, food, bedtimes, and
rules.
-=-=-=-=-==-=-
I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which seems
disrespectful to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Uhmmmm...I *think* Ren *meant* to use a negative connotation. Because
"clinging" to those things is disrespectful of the CHILD and what he's
capable of. The longer that parents cling to rules and chores and
discipline, the longer it takes to make unschooling work well (or most
often, the more impossible it becomes!).
-=-=-=-=-=-
I would have phrased that same statement perhaps as
"There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rules and
chores and discipline. They are still unschoolers." I believe that is
more
of a descriptive informative statement that doesn't include either a
positive or negative judgement, therefore respecting the ability of the
reader to make up their own mind as to the (negative of positive) value
of
the CHOICE of those parents to have rules and chores and discipline.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---except that a goal of *this* list is to help people move aWAY
form such arbitrary control.
To the *owners* of this list, it *should* have a negative connotation.
-=-==-=-
To the OP, that difference you notice is the difference between
so-called
"Radical Unschooling" (which really doesn't have to do with the way
kids are
or aren't "schooled" and a lot more with the way they're "parented",
IMO)
and just plain old unschooling, which IMO is what that parent is, from
her
own description.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe. To you.
But how does a child who is controlled with food, bedtimes, chores,
discipline, rules---how does that child *learn* what's right for him?
When mom's imposing all these "flexible rules"? How does that work? How
can you trust your child to learn grammar but not trust him to learn to
pick up his clothes? How can you trust your child to learn to multiply
but not trust him to sleep when he's tired and wake when he's rested?
Do you think kids don't start questioning that themselves? Then what?
I can't see how they can be separated. Learning is learning. I don't
divide our world into "academic" and "non-academic." It's ALL learning
and ALL important. And I trust that my boys will learn because they
*want* to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope that clarifies things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You're not clarifying with the goals of *this* list in mind.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
Ren,Thank you for making THIS clear, as I believe it hits exactly the
question that was being asked by the OP:
>>There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules andchores and discipline. They're still unschoolers.<<
-=-=-=-=-=-
Ren realizes that there are many people who call themselves
"unschoolers" and who simply don't buy curricula---they still require a
lot of schoolwork from their kids, but they don't *BUY* curricula. She
also realizes that there are people who call themselves "unschoolers"
and who "unschool" everything but math and reading. She realizes that
there are *plenty* of people who call themselves "unschoolers" and who
require chores, limits foods, enforce bedtimes, and have lots of rules.
Ren and I will be speaking at the New England Conference later this
month about how *we* don't think that works so well. "It Ain't Just
About Academics" will cover topics like chores, food, bedtimes, and
rules.
-=-=-=-=-==-=-
I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which seems
disrespectful to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Uhmmmm...I *think* Ren *meant* to use a negative connotation. Because
"clinging" to those things is disrespectful of the CHILD and what he's
capable of. The longer that parents cling to rules and chores and
discipline, the longer it takes to make unschooling work well (or most
often, the more impossible it becomes!).
-=-=-=-=-=-
I would have phrased that same statement perhaps as
"There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rules and
chores and discipline. They are still unschoolers." I believe that is
more
of a descriptive informative statement that doesn't include either a
positive or negative judgement, therefore respecting the ability of the
reader to make up their own mind as to the (negative of positive) value
of
the CHOICE of those parents to have rules and chores and discipline.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---except that a goal of *this* list is to help people move aWAY
form such arbitrary control.
To the *owners* of this list, it *should* have a negative connotation.
-=-==-=-
To the OP, that difference you notice is the difference between
so-called
"Radical Unschooling" (which really doesn't have to do with the way
kids are
or aren't "schooled" and a lot more with the way they're "parented",
IMO)
and just plain old unschooling, which IMO is what that parent is, from
her
own description.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe. To you.
But how does a child who is controlled with food, bedtimes, chores,
discipline, rules---how does that child *learn* what's right for him?
When mom's imposing all these "flexible rules"? How does that work? How
can you trust your child to learn grammar but not trust him to learn to
pick up his clothes? How can you trust your child to learn to multiply
but not trust him to sleep when he's tired and wake when he's rested?
Do you think kids don't start questioning that themselves? Then what?
I can't see how they can be separated. Learning is learning. I don't
divide our world into "academic" and "non-academic." It's ALL learning
and ALL important. And I trust that my boys will learn because they
*want* to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope that clarifies things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You're not clarifying with the goals of *this* list in mind.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Mara
Oh, I so much would love for my husband to listen to that one talk. Is singing yours (and Ren's) praises beforehand and talking loads about what you have done for my parenting and happiness any form of secret coercion?
I do try to talk about that real unschooling is a way of life and that I would like him to share it, but he still has some real trouble understanding what I mean by that. He still feels the need to when we are out in the yard together for example shout out things like: "watch out with that sick", careful, you are going to fall" " you better come down from there..."" I told you not to do this ... and if you don't listen, you can go in the house" etc. etc. Those things are so ingrained in him that he does not understand my cringing and feels like he is always being criticized. Often I am close to tears and feel like he is hindering their 'being', our happy and trusting peaceful LIFE. I really do want him to be part of it, but how?
We have made some "unschooling" friends who are lovely people but they are not radical in any sense. They still tell their kids what to do or have some limit or another set up (sometimes just math, sometimes food, sometimes telling them how to behave...). I don't mind, I still love them, but I feel the need to be RADICAL.
Sorry I am getting totally off topic... so much for 3 am writing.
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: "kbcdlovejo@..." <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:33:16 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Radical Unschooling?
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@ gmail.com>
Ren,Thank you for making THIS clear, as I believe it hits exactly the
question that was being asked by the OP:
-=-=-=-=-=-
Ren realizes that there are many people who call themselves
"unschoolers" and who simply don't buy curricula--- they still require a
lot of schoolwork from their kids, but they don't *BUY* curricula. She
also realizes that there are people who call themselves "unschoolers"
and who "unschool" everything but math and reading. She realizes that
there are *plenty* of people who call themselves "unschoolers" and who
require chores, limits foods, enforce bedtimes, and have lots of rules.
Ren and I will be speaking at the New England Conference later this
month about how *we* don't think that works so well. "It Ain't Just
About Academics" will cover topics like chores, food, bedtimes, and
rules.
-=-=-=-=-==- =-
I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which seems
disrespectful to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Uhmmmm...I *think* Ren *meant* to use a negative connotation. Because
"clinging" to those things is disrespectful of the CHILD and what he's
capable of. The longer that parents cling to rules and chores and
discipline, the longer it takes to make unschooling work well (or most
often, the more impossible it becomes!).
-=-=-=-=-=-
I would have phrased that same statement perhaps as
"There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rules and
chores and discipline. They are still unschoolers. " I believe that is
more
of a descriptive informative statement that doesn't include either a
positive or negative judgement, therefore respecting the ability of the
reader to make up their own mind as to the (negative of positive) value
of
the CHOICE of those parents to have rules and chores and discipline.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---except that a goal of *this* list is to help people move aWAY
form such arbitrary control.
To the *owners* of this list, it *should* have a negative connotation.
-=-==-=-
To the OP, that difference you notice is the difference between
so-called
"Radical Unschooling" (which really doesn't have to do with the way
kids are
or aren't "schooled" and a lot more with the way they're "parented",
IMO)
and just plain old unschooling, which IMO is what that parent is, from
her
own description.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe. To you.
But how does a child who is controlled with food, bedtimes, chores,
discipline, rules---how does that child *learn* what's right for him?
When mom's imposing all these "flexible rules"? How does that work? How
can you trust your child to learn grammar but not trust him to learn to
pick up his clothes? How can you trust your child to learn to multiply
but not trust him to sleep when he's tired and wake when he's rested?
Do you think kids don't start questioning that themselves? Then what?
I can't see how they can be separated. Learning is learning. I don't
divide our world into "academic" and "non-academic. " It's ALL learning
and ALL important. And I trust that my boys will learn because they
*want* to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope that clarifies things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You're not clarifying with the goals of *this* list in mind.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandL earnConference. org
____________________________________________________________________________________
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I do try to talk about that real unschooling is a way of life and that I would like him to share it, but he still has some real trouble understanding what I mean by that. He still feels the need to when we are out in the yard together for example shout out things like: "watch out with that sick", careful, you are going to fall" " you better come down from there..."" I told you not to do this ... and if you don't listen, you can go in the house" etc. etc. Those things are so ingrained in him that he does not understand my cringing and feels like he is always being criticized. Often I am close to tears and feel like he is hindering their 'being', our happy and trusting peaceful LIFE. I really do want him to be part of it, but how?
We have made some "unschooling" friends who are lovely people but they are not radical in any sense. They still tell their kids what to do or have some limit or another set up (sometimes just math, sometimes food, sometimes telling them how to behave...). I don't mind, I still love them, but I feel the need to be RADICAL.
Sorry I am getting totally off topic... so much for 3 am writing.
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: "kbcdlovejo@..." <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 2:33:16 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Radical Unschooling?
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@ gmail.com>
Ren,Thank you for making THIS clear, as I believe it hits exactly the
question that was being asked by the OP:
>>There are a lot of unschoolers out there that cling to rules andchores and discipline. They're still unschoolers. <<
-=-=-=-=-=-
Ren realizes that there are many people who call themselves
"unschoolers" and who simply don't buy curricula--- they still require a
lot of schoolwork from their kids, but they don't *BUY* curricula. She
also realizes that there are people who call themselves "unschoolers"
and who "unschool" everything but math and reading. She realizes that
there are *plenty* of people who call themselves "unschoolers" and who
require chores, limits foods, enforce bedtimes, and have lots of rules.
Ren and I will be speaking at the New England Conference later this
month about how *we* don't think that works so well. "It Ain't Just
About Academics" will cover topics like chores, food, bedtimes, and
rules.
-=-=-=-=-==- =-
I would only add that "clinging" has a negative connotation which seems
disrespectful to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Uhmmmm...I *think* Ren *meant* to use a negative connotation. Because
"clinging" to those things is disrespectful of the CHILD and what he's
capable of. The longer that parents cling to rules and chores and
discipline, the longer it takes to make unschooling work well (or most
often, the more impossible it becomes!).
-=-=-=-=-=-
I would have phrased that same statement perhaps as
"There are a lot of unschoolers out there that CHOOSE to have rules and
chores and discipline. They are still unschoolers. " I believe that is
more
of a descriptive informative statement that doesn't include either a
positive or negative judgement, therefore respecting the ability of the
reader to make up their own mind as to the (negative of positive) value
of
the CHOICE of those parents to have rules and chores and discipline.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---except that a goal of *this* list is to help people move aWAY
form such arbitrary control.
To the *owners* of this list, it *should* have a negative connotation.
-=-==-=-
To the OP, that difference you notice is the difference between
so-called
"Radical Unschooling" (which really doesn't have to do with the way
kids are
or aren't "schooled" and a lot more with the way they're "parented",
IMO)
and just plain old unschooling, which IMO is what that parent is, from
her
own description.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe. To you.
But how does a child who is controlled with food, bedtimes, chores,
discipline, rules---how does that child *learn* what's right for him?
When mom's imposing all these "flexible rules"? How does that work? How
can you trust your child to learn grammar but not trust him to learn to
pick up his clothes? How can you trust your child to learn to multiply
but not trust him to sleep when he's tired and wake when he's rested?
Do you think kids don't start questioning that themselves? Then what?
I can't see how they can be separated. Learning is learning. I don't
divide our world into "academic" and "non-academic. " It's ALL learning
and ALL important. And I trust that my boys will learn because they
*want* to.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope that clarifies things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You're not clarifying with the goals of *this* list in mind.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandL earnConference. org
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
I would also warn you against using the term "chores"since it has that
negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc.
Why
not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more
adults
could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather
than
grudgingly. No stickers necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful.
Just try
breaking them from it and you'll see!
-=-=-=-=-=-
I would also warn you against using the term "rules" since it has that
negative connotation of inflexible, rigid, strict, something that's a
pain to follow, etc. Why
not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more
adults
could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather
than
begrudgingly. No rules necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful. Just
try
breaking them, and you'll see!
~Kelly
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
I would also warn you against using the term "chores"since it has that
negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc.
Why
not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more
adults
could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather
than
grudgingly. No stickers necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful.
Just try
breaking them from it and you'll see!
-=-=-=-=-=-
I would also warn you against using the term "rules" since it has that
negative connotation of inflexible, rigid, strict, something that's a
pain to follow, etc. Why
not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more
adults
could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather
than
begrudgingly. No rules necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful. Just
try
breaking them, and you'll see!
~Kelly
Ren Allen
~~Oh, I so much would love for my husband to listen to that one talk.
Is singing yours (and Ren's) praises beforehand and talking loads
about what you have done for my parenting and happiness any form of
secret coercion? ~~
It's a form of coercion I totally and completely support!:)
Funny thing, is I tend to get the Dad's who have really GREAT walls of
defense put up against radical unschooling. They have truly
interesting stories that PROVE RU is unecessary.;)
It takes hours of me getting cornered after each talk, but I usually
can see the softening effect by the end of a conference. They are my
specialty now.
I think I enjoy the intellectual tete-a-tete. Must be punishment from
some bad karma I brought over from a different life. lol
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Is singing yours (and Ren's) praises beforehand and talking loads
about what you have done for my parenting and happiness any form of
secret coercion? ~~
It's a form of coercion I totally and completely support!:)
Funny thing, is I tend to get the Dad's who have really GREAT walls of
defense put up against radical unschooling. They have truly
interesting stories that PROVE RU is unecessary.;)
It takes hours of me getting cornered after each talk, but I usually
can see the softening effect by the end of a conference. They are my
specialty now.
I think I enjoy the intellectual tete-a-tete. Must be punishment from
some bad karma I brought over from a different life. lol
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
keetry
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
was still only 3 years old) if I had introduced academics yet
because I told her we would homeschool. She's in a Waldorf co-op and
I guess they don't *do* academics until children are 7. I didn't
know how to answer her because I don't separate things out like
that. Academics have to do with school. We don't do school so we
don't do academics, per se. We do learn all aspects of life as we go
along.
I find this discussion of unschooling academics but not other
aspects of life interesting. I would think it would be harder for
most people to trust that their children would learn grammar and
math vs. learning when to eat or go to bed or put dirty clothes in a
hamper.
Alysia
>learning
> Learning is learning. I don't
> divide our world into "academic" and "non-academic." It's ALL
> and ALL important.I agree with this. I had a friend ask me a few months back (when ds2
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
was still only 3 years old) if I had introduced academics yet
because I told her we would homeschool. She's in a Waldorf co-op and
I guess they don't *do* academics until children are 7. I didn't
know how to answer her because I don't separate things out like
that. Academics have to do with school. We don't do school so we
don't do academics, per se. We do learn all aspects of life as we go
along.
I find this discussion of unschooling academics but not other
aspects of life interesting. I would think it would be harder for
most people to trust that their children would learn grammar and
math vs. learning when to eat or go to bed or put dirty clothes in a
hamper.
Alysia
Ren Allen
~~Uhmmmm...I *think* Ren *meant* to use a negative connotation. Because
"clinging" to those things is disrespectful of the CHILD and what he's
capable of. ~~
There is a thread going on somewhere else (can't remember which list)
about "what do you do if you know your child is capable of something
but reluctant to try?"
What about parents who are capable and won't try??:)
Seriously though, everyone figures out what they're willing to GET
comfortable with in their own homes. Some people still see children as
beings that need to be controlled. Or they decide to let go of control
but have nothing to replace it with and things DO devolve into chaos.
Then they have "proof" that RU doesn't work.
I say "clinging" because rules and chores and control are comfort
zones for most people. It's what we knew, it's what we use if we don't
learn a better way of relating to humans. Yes, better.
I don't have a problem with utilizing the judgement I've been wired
with.:) It's a useful tool for humans. People who claim they are
non-judgemental crack me up. We ALL need to use judgement to stay
safe, to make friends, to make choices every day.
Judgement isn't an excuse to be rude to people we don't agree with. It
is ideally a way to make better choices though. I judge punishment and
forced chores and other such things as a "lesser" way of relating to
children. That doesn't mean I don't have friends that do these things,
nor do I tell them what I think most of the time.
This list exists to examine those very things. Yes, I believe you are
"clinging" to a comfortable way of being if you can't release
punishments and manipulation of your children. I also believe nobody
can assist anyone in releasing those things unless they want to.
The list is here to help people do just that, IF they wish. If not,
people can utilize the parts they like and ignore the rest. Just like
everything else in life...they can use THEIR judgement to choose.:)
I think the word "respect" is flung about too casually. I DON'T
respect certain practices. I DO respect people's right to make their
own choices though. There's a big difference.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
"clinging" to those things is disrespectful of the CHILD and what he's
capable of. ~~
There is a thread going on somewhere else (can't remember which list)
about "what do you do if you know your child is capable of something
but reluctant to try?"
What about parents who are capable and won't try??:)
Seriously though, everyone figures out what they're willing to GET
comfortable with in their own homes. Some people still see children as
beings that need to be controlled. Or they decide to let go of control
but have nothing to replace it with and things DO devolve into chaos.
Then they have "proof" that RU doesn't work.
I say "clinging" because rules and chores and control are comfort
zones for most people. It's what we knew, it's what we use if we don't
learn a better way of relating to humans. Yes, better.
I don't have a problem with utilizing the judgement I've been wired
with.:) It's a useful tool for humans. People who claim they are
non-judgemental crack me up. We ALL need to use judgement to stay
safe, to make friends, to make choices every day.
Judgement isn't an excuse to be rude to people we don't agree with. It
is ideally a way to make better choices though. I judge punishment and
forced chores and other such things as a "lesser" way of relating to
children. That doesn't mean I don't have friends that do these things,
nor do I tell them what I think most of the time.
This list exists to examine those very things. Yes, I believe you are
"clinging" to a comfortable way of being if you can't release
punishments and manipulation of your children. I also believe nobody
can assist anyone in releasing those things unless they want to.
The list is here to help people do just that, IF they wish. If not,
people can utilize the parts they like and ignore the rest. Just like
everything else in life...they can use THEIR judgement to choose.:)
I think the word "respect" is flung about too casually. I DON'T
respect certain practices. I DO respect people's right to make their
own choices though. There's a big difference.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
keetry
--- In [email protected], Mara <mamadeluz@...> wrote:
careful, you are going to fall" " you better come down from
there..."" I told you not to do this ... and if you don't listen,
you can go in the house" etc. etc.
Is your husband open to letting this stuff go? I asked my husband to
start with baby steps. Instead of saying, "Stop that or you'll get
hurt!" I asked him to say, "Please be careful. That looks
dangerous," or "You could get hurt," so that he wasn't phrasing it
as a certainty. Eventually, he moved to, "I'm afraid you'll get
hurt." I still ask my ds to be careful and tell him when something
makes me nervous or I'm worried that he could get hurt.
Another thing I do with my husband is ask him to tell me what would
be the worst thing that could happen. Most of the time, it's not
really that bad. Then he's more likely to let go of trying to stop
the kids from doing something.
Alysia
>for example shout out things like: "watch out with that sick",
> He still feels the need to when we are out in the yard together
careful, you are going to fall" " you better come down from
there..."" I told you not to do this ... and if you don't listen,
you can go in the house" etc. etc.
Is your husband open to letting this stuff go? I asked my husband to
start with baby steps. Instead of saying, "Stop that or you'll get
hurt!" I asked him to say, "Please be careful. That looks
dangerous," or "You could get hurt," so that he wasn't phrasing it
as a certainty. Eventually, he moved to, "I'm afraid you'll get
hurt." I still ask my ds to be careful and tell him when something
makes me nervous or I'm worried that he could get hurt.
Another thing I do with my husband is ask him to tell me what would
be the worst thing that could happen. Most of the time, it's not
really that bad. Then he's more likely to let go of trying to stop
the kids from doing something.
Alysia
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>
I find this discussion of unschooling academics but not other
aspects of life interesting. I would think it would be harder for
most people to trust that their children would learn grammar and
math vs. learning when to eat or go to bed or put dirty clothes in a
hamper.
-=-=-=-
I think it's just what you're comfortable with. I know parents on both
extremes---some who can't fathom how children would learn academics,
but are fine with all the "life learning" and some who are fine with
teeth and food and sleep and chores but can't for the life of them see
how math and reading can be learned outside a classroom.
It's just strange to me.
I mean: I can get those parents who think that *everything* MUST BE
TAUGHT. Just a huge lack of understanding of how learning happens---and
they maybe need/want the control that they didn't have as children. Or
they're just horribly lacking in trust in how humans *are* and what
learning machines we truly *are*.
But when you pick only parts to trust and can't see how ALL learning is
natural, when you can't trust children with ALL of it---like some
things are just impossible without outside, parental control---that
baffles me.
If you trust your child can learn algebra naturally without coercion,
why do you struggle with his learning to care for his teeth?
If you trust that he will learn to eat when he's hungry and sleep when
he's rested, why do you struggle with reading?
Humans learn. Everything. When they are ready and interested. Even HARD
stuff! REALLY hard stuff! Because they want to.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: keetry <keetry@...>
I find this discussion of unschooling academics but not other
aspects of life interesting. I would think it would be harder for
most people to trust that their children would learn grammar and
math vs. learning when to eat or go to bed or put dirty clothes in a
hamper.
-=-=-=-
I think it's just what you're comfortable with. I know parents on both
extremes---some who can't fathom how children would learn academics,
but are fine with all the "life learning" and some who are fine with
teeth and food and sleep and chores but can't for the life of them see
how math and reading can be learned outside a classroom.
It's just strange to me.
I mean: I can get those parents who think that *everything* MUST BE
TAUGHT. Just a huge lack of understanding of how learning happens---and
they maybe need/want the control that they didn't have as children. Or
they're just horribly lacking in trust in how humans *are* and what
learning machines we truly *are*.
But when you pick only parts to trust and can't see how ALL learning is
natural, when you can't trust children with ALL of it---like some
things are just impossible without outside, parental control---that
baffles me.
If you trust your child can learn algebra naturally without coercion,
why do you struggle with his learning to care for his teeth?
If you trust that he will learn to eat when he's hungry and sleep when
he's rested, why do you struggle with reading?
Humans learn. Everything. When they are ready and interested. Even HARD
stuff! REALLY hard stuff! Because they want to.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Ren Allen
~~
Humans learn. Everything. When they are ready and interested. Even
HARD stuff! REALLY hard stuff! Because they want to.~~
Sierra is learning guitar right now. She asked her Dad to help her
learn how to play something, so they started with "Mary Had a Little
Lamb". Of course.:)
Her next song? Ironman. Yes, the heavy metal song. She learned part of
it and then part of a Deep Purple song.
She and I went to Michael's last night, to spend a Birthday gift card
....she tells me that she's tired of playing the same two songs and
wants to learn something new. Then, a few minutes later she says "you
know, I should just learn the rest of those songs first"
She picked up yarn to knit some projects on her looms. She got wads of
paper to make ATC's at the NE Unschooling conference. She started
blogging again this last week and made a new food blog.:) Girl after
my own heart.
http://unschoolingrocks.blogspot.com/
http://free-in-life.blogspot.com/
She cleaned the entire basement area while I was at work the other
night. It was a complete DISASTER! She organized and vacuumed and
cleaned like a crazy person. Nobody asked her. I was actually feeling
guilty because it was SUCH a huge job and I wished I'd been there to help.
Let's see...she plants the garden with me, she collects wild edibles
for cooking with, she cares for her cats and rabbit, she sings and is
obsessed with music....I could go on.
She learns all sorts of things that seem hard or difficult. Guitar is
not an easy instrument in my opinion! She's asking for a piano too.
People LOVE to learn. Hard things, crazy things, interesting things.
Things we might never recognize as "valid" because of our past
programming. But I watch these natural learners eating up the world,
the universe and I stand in awe.
We don't need subjects, or school lessons..in fact, those things
NARROW their world. We need freedom to explore that which fascinates
us. Whether for a moment or for a lifetime. Life is a rich and varied
journey. If you trust a child, TRULY trust a child then the things
that seemed trivial are suddenly sacred.
Those scribbles of a toddler may be profound art one day. That crazy
outfit your child is wearing may look like a fashion designer someday.
If not? They ENJOYED the journey along the way. What more could one
ask of life?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Humans learn. Everything. When they are ready and interested. Even
HARD stuff! REALLY hard stuff! Because they want to.~~
Sierra is learning guitar right now. She asked her Dad to help her
learn how to play something, so they started with "Mary Had a Little
Lamb". Of course.:)
Her next song? Ironman. Yes, the heavy metal song. She learned part of
it and then part of a Deep Purple song.
She and I went to Michael's last night, to spend a Birthday gift card
....she tells me that she's tired of playing the same two songs and
wants to learn something new. Then, a few minutes later she says "you
know, I should just learn the rest of those songs first"
She picked up yarn to knit some projects on her looms. She got wads of
paper to make ATC's at the NE Unschooling conference. She started
blogging again this last week and made a new food blog.:) Girl after
my own heart.
http://unschoolingrocks.blogspot.com/
http://free-in-life.blogspot.com/
She cleaned the entire basement area while I was at work the other
night. It was a complete DISASTER! She organized and vacuumed and
cleaned like a crazy person. Nobody asked her. I was actually feeling
guilty because it was SUCH a huge job and I wished I'd been there to help.
Let's see...she plants the garden with me, she collects wild edibles
for cooking with, she cares for her cats and rabbit, she sings and is
obsessed with music....I could go on.
She learns all sorts of things that seem hard or difficult. Guitar is
not an easy instrument in my opinion! She's asking for a piano too.
People LOVE to learn. Hard things, crazy things, interesting things.
Things we might never recognize as "valid" because of our past
programming. But I watch these natural learners eating up the world,
the universe and I stand in awe.
We don't need subjects, or school lessons..in fact, those things
NARROW their world. We need freedom to explore that which fascinates
us. Whether for a moment or for a lifetime. Life is a rich and varied
journey. If you trust a child, TRULY trust a child then the things
that seemed trivial are suddenly sacred.
Those scribbles of a toddler may be profound art one day. That crazy
outfit your child is wearing may look like a fashion designer someday.
If not? They ENJOYED the journey along the way. What more could one
ask of life?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I would also warn you against using the term "chores"since it has that
negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc.
-=\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tell this to my 27 month old dd who wants to do chores mornings and evenings with her dad.
She really does help him feeding the cows etc.
She wakes up and one of the first things she says is:"I want chores Daddy now!"
<bwg>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc.
-=\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tell this to my 27 month old dd who wants to do chores mornings and evenings with her dad.
She really does help him feeding the cows etc.
She wakes up and one of the first things she says is:"I want chores Daddy now!"
<bwg>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barbara Perez
Point taken (and cleverly made, if I might add). And yet, just like the
other poster below whose toddler is quoted as saying "I want chores!" I
really do think that the negative connotation of "rules" is in the eye of
the beholder. In fact I'm very glad you made the parallel, since I can
actually see both sides of the issue in both cases (that of *rules* and that
of *chores*) only I've been looking at each mostly from opposite sides - but
it doesn't mean either HAS to be negative - only if we ourselves assign that
value to them. Thanks!
other poster below whose toddler is quoted as saying "I want chores!" I
really do think that the negative connotation of "rules" is in the eye of
the beholder. In fact I'm very glad you made the parallel, since I can
actually see both sides of the issue in both cases (that of *rules* and that
of *chores*) only I've been looking at each mostly from opposite sides - but
it doesn't mean either HAS to be negative - only if we ourselves assign that
value to them. Thanks!
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 1:27 AM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@... <barbara.perez%40gmail.com>>
>
> I would also warn you against using the term "chores"since it has that
> negative connotation of drudgery, something that's a pain to do, etc.
> Why
> not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more
> adults
> could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
> responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather
> than
> grudgingly. No stickers necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful.
> Just try
> breaking them from it and you'll see!
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I would also warn you against using the term "rules" since it has that
> negative connotation of inflexible, rigid, strict, something that's a
> pain to follow, etc. Why
> not capitalize on kids' joyful way of doing everything? I feel more
> adults
> could learn from kids to do those helpful things (such as taking
> responsibility for your own self and one's belongings) joyfully rather
> than
> begrudgingly. No rules necessary! :) And yes, they can be harmful. Just
> try
> breaking them, and you'll see!
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
For that matter, do clothes HAVE TO go in a hamper? It's a convenience
and yes, *I* prefer to have stuff in a basket and not on the floor BUT
even as an adult, there have been times/places when my used clothing has
been in a pile in a corner of the floor until laundry doing time because
I didn't OWN a hamper/basket and/or I didn't have space for a
hamper/basket. There was a place for it, just no container for it.
Generally, laundry ends up in or near the basket, and when I put my own
laundry in there at the end of the day, I pick up whatever stuff is
nearby that didn't get into it, it's usually in the general area but
sometimes the casual toss doesn't quite get there. We don't have rewards
for DS (now almost 10) to put his laundry in the basket, never have.
But, I might remind him to please toss his clothes in the basket (same
as I'd possibly remind DH that his sweaty green tinged post-lawn mowing
socks need to get in the basket and not left on the middle of the
bedroom floor). Generally, reminders are met with Okay because I don't
pester but rather model both doing it myself AND grabbing their stuff
and putting it in the basket since I'm heading that way anyhow most
likely. Modeling and serving seems to have created (in our house anyhow)
a more peaceful, less stressed, atmosphere AND stuff gets done without
Mom/Dad always doing it. (FWIW DH is the at home parent so he does most
of the laundry, most of the cooking, most of the house stuff etc as well
as the mowing and other yard work AND just being with DS all day,
exploring, interacting, etc I mostly handle grocery shopping and bill
paying as well as WHO fulltime).
Deb
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and yes, *I* prefer to have stuff in a basket and not on the floor BUT
even as an adult, there have been times/places when my used clothing has
been in a pile in a corner of the floor until laundry doing time because
I didn't OWN a hamper/basket and/or I didn't have space for a
hamper/basket. There was a place for it, just no container for it.
Generally, laundry ends up in or near the basket, and when I put my own
laundry in there at the end of the day, I pick up whatever stuff is
nearby that didn't get into it, it's usually in the general area but
sometimes the casual toss doesn't quite get there. We don't have rewards
for DS (now almost 10) to put his laundry in the basket, never have.
But, I might remind him to please toss his clothes in the basket (same
as I'd possibly remind DH that his sweaty green tinged post-lawn mowing
socks need to get in the basket and not left on the middle of the
bedroom floor). Generally, reminders are met with Okay because I don't
pester but rather model both doing it myself AND grabbing their stuff
and putting it in the basket since I'm heading that way anyhow most
likely. Modeling and serving seems to have created (in our house anyhow)
a more peaceful, less stressed, atmosphere AND stuff gets done without
Mom/Dad always doing it. (FWIW DH is the at home parent so he does most
of the laundry, most of the cooking, most of the house stuff etc as well
as the mowing and other yard work AND just being with DS all day,
exploring, interacting, etc I mostly handle grocery shopping and bill
paying as well as WHO fulltime).
Deb
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Debra Rossing
>If you trust your child can learn algebra naturally without coercion,why do you struggle with his learning to care for his teeth?
I think this side of things might tie into fears - of pain, illness, etc
- and wanting to protect our kids from that. If someone doesn't know
algebra, they can still get along, survive, not be hurt (generally
speaking). If someone doesn't care for their teeth in such-and-such way
(the thinking goes) there will be cavities, pain, expensive dental
procedures, heart disease, etc. If someone doesn't read at age 6 or 8,
there might be times they miss something here or there but it's not
likely to be fatal (since serious hazards are usually marked with
symbols like red X or skull and cross bones or whatever as well as
words) but if they don't bathe and/or wash their hands thus often, there
are all those germs out there just waiting to swoop in and cause
illnesses. Operating out of fear is often a major road to controlling
whatever - I MUST control x in order to prevent y scary thing - because
when there are so many things that seem scary and possible, we (people
in general) tend to want to control as much as we can in order to keep
scary stuff at bay.
Deb
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