defense of state regulation question
[email protected]
Recently I have come up against people who have defended the government
regulating education. I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't believe
that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education themselves has the
ability and right to "teach" their children. I think because she had to go
to several years of college, take classes to learn how to teach, go through
student teaching and get a license, that she feels she is more qualified than me
or another person to "teach" our children. She says the license is necessary
and is upset that people with BA degrees can now teach without the license.
She believes that teaching needs to be regulated in some way. Now of course
I'm using the word teach because that's what she does. She teaches. As an
unschooler I realize that word doesn't exist. So stick with me here. What I'm
looking for is an explanation of why public school isn't the best choice for our
kids and why the regulation isn't necessary - or maybe even why it's bad.
I also know another homeschooler who uses a curriculum. My son is young and
I'm new to unschooling, so I don't have to words you all might. I'm looking
for words to defend my position and share reasons why state/government
regulation of education isn't good and why homeschoolers want to be where the
regulations are nonexistent or loose, at least. The homeschooler I spoke with
recently said that there were certain things that she felt people in our society
needed to know and it was her job to teach those things to her son. In the
future, my response to her would be something like, "why do you get to decide what
people in our society - or your son for that matter - NEED to know? Why isn't
what your son wants to know just as important, if not more so." Feel free to
expand on that as well, but the real question here is related to the above.
What do I say to teachers? I know they have their hands tied in many
situations. But how do I articulate the reasons I've decided to homeschool and
specifically UNschool and why do I want the government to keep their hands out of my
business?
I don't mean to say that I don't know these things. Of course, inside me I
know. But I have trouble coming up with the words to share with these people.
Can you share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
regulating education. I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't believe
that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education themselves has the
ability and right to "teach" their children. I think because she had to go
to several years of college, take classes to learn how to teach, go through
student teaching and get a license, that she feels she is more qualified than me
or another person to "teach" our children. She says the license is necessary
and is upset that people with BA degrees can now teach without the license.
She believes that teaching needs to be regulated in some way. Now of course
I'm using the word teach because that's what she does. She teaches. As an
unschooler I realize that word doesn't exist. So stick with me here. What I'm
looking for is an explanation of why public school isn't the best choice for our
kids and why the regulation isn't necessary - or maybe even why it's bad.
I also know another homeschooler who uses a curriculum. My son is young and
I'm new to unschooling, so I don't have to words you all might. I'm looking
for words to defend my position and share reasons why state/government
regulation of education isn't good and why homeschoolers want to be where the
regulations are nonexistent or loose, at least. The homeschooler I spoke with
recently said that there were certain things that she felt people in our society
needed to know and it was her job to teach those things to her son. In the
future, my response to her would be something like, "why do you get to decide what
people in our society - or your son for that matter - NEED to know? Why isn't
what your son wants to know just as important, if not more so." Feel free to
expand on that as well, but the real question here is related to the above.
What do I say to teachers? I know they have their hands tied in many
situations. But how do I articulate the reasons I've decided to homeschool and
specifically UNschool and why do I want the government to keep their hands out of my
business?
I don't mean to say that I don't know these things. Of course, inside me I
know. But I have trouble coming up with the words to share with these people.
Can you share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daniel MacIntyre
As I understand it, most of what a teacher needs to know is how to
maintain control of a classroom of 30 children. The hard part to
teaching isn't presenting the information - a machine can do that
much. The hard part is maintaining discipline, keeping order,
complying with (lots of) regulations and keeping everyone on the same
page - even if they are capable of going on or struggling to keep up.
A parent doesn't need to be taught to do that - for the most part,
it's not applicable.
Parents have a much simpler job because there is less disruption, more
one on one time, individualized attention, no administrators making
things harder, no school boards with political agendas to worry about
and no concerned parents threatening to sue at the drop of a hat
(unless you intend to sue yourself).
Also don't forget, you have ALL SORTS of statistics and data to back
you up. My favorite is that the single strongest indicator of success
in education is parental involvement - stronger than class size,
wealth of the community, number of computers in the classroom, and
even teacher abilities.
Hope this helps!
maintain control of a classroom of 30 children. The hard part to
teaching isn't presenting the information - a machine can do that
much. The hard part is maintaining discipline, keeping order,
complying with (lots of) regulations and keeping everyone on the same
page - even if they are capable of going on or struggling to keep up.
A parent doesn't need to be taught to do that - for the most part,
it's not applicable.
Parents have a much simpler job because there is less disruption, more
one on one time, individualized attention, no administrators making
things harder, no school boards with political agendas to worry about
and no concerned parents threatening to sue at the drop of a hat
(unless you intend to sue yourself).
Also don't forget, you have ALL SORTS of statistics and data to back
you up. My favorite is that the single strongest indicator of success
in education is parental involvement - stronger than class size,
wealth of the community, number of computers in the classroom, and
even teacher abilities.
Hope this helps!
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:16:56 EDT, bethryco@... <bethryco@...> wrote:
> Recently I have come up against people who have defended the government
> regulating education. I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't believe
> that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education themselves has the
> ability and right to "teach" their children. I think because she had to go
> to several years of college, take classes to learn how to teach, go through
> student teaching and get a license, that she feels she is more qualified than me
> or another person to "teach" our children. She says the license is necessary
> and is upset that people with BA degrees can now teach without the license.
> She believes that teaching needs to be regulated in some way. Now of course
> I'm using the word teach because that's what she does. She teaches. As an
> unschooler I realize that word doesn't exist. So stick with me here. What I'm
> looking for is an explanation of why public school isn't the best choice for our
> kids and why the regulation isn't necessary - or maybe even why it's bad.
>
> I also know another homeschooler who uses a curriculum. My son is young and
> I'm new to unschooling, so I don't have to words you all might. I'm looking
> for words to defend my position and share reasons why state/government
> regulation of education isn't good and why homeschoolers want to be where the
> regulations are nonexistent or loose, at least. The homeschooler I spoke with
> recently said that there were certain things that she felt people in our society
> needed to know and it was her job to teach those things to her son. In the
> future, my response to her would be something like, "why do you get to decide what
> people in our society - or your son for that matter - NEED to know? Why isn't
> what your son wants to know just as important, if not more so." Feel free to
> expand on that as well, but the real question here is related to the above.
> What do I say to teachers? I know they have their hands tied in many
> situations. But how do I articulate the reasons I've decided to homeschool and
> specifically UNschool and why do I want the government to keep their hands out of my
> business?
>
> I don't mean to say that I don't know these things. Of course, inside me I
> know. But I have trouble coming up with the words to share with these people.
>
> Can you share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
> Beth
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/20/2004 10:22:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bethryco@... writes:
I don't mean to say that I don't know these things. Of course, inside me I
know. But I have trouble coming up with the words to share with these
people.
Can you share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
***************************************************************************
I recently read An Underground History of American Education by John Taylor
Gatto. It answers all those questions and more. I read it online at his
website _www.johntaylorgatto.com_ (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com)
It is alot to wade through, and I'm not sure will give you any quick
answers, but I sure got how little our education system has to do with education.
It is about creating a dependent-on-the-state work force, something seemingly
necessary as our country moved into the industrial revolution.
The most profound thought I gathered is "why is schooling COMPULSORY in a
free society?"
Oh, I could go on and on. I desperately wanted to discuss this book with
someone, and everybody in my real life just RAN when I said "oh, there was
another interesting point in this book I am reading!"
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bethryco@... writes:
I don't mean to say that I don't know these things. Of course, inside me I
know. But I have trouble coming up with the words to share with these
people.
Can you share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
***************************************************************************
I recently read An Underground History of American Education by John Taylor
Gatto. It answers all those questions and more. I read it online at his
website _www.johntaylorgatto.com_ (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com)
It is alot to wade through, and I'm not sure will give you any quick
answers, but I sure got how little our education system has to do with education.
It is about creating a dependent-on-the-state work force, something seemingly
necessary as our country moved into the industrial revolution.
The most profound thought I gathered is "why is schooling COMPULSORY in a
free society?"
Oh, I could go on and on. I desperately wanted to discuss this book with
someone, and everybody in my real life just RAN when I said "oh, there was
another interesting point in this book I am reading!"
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Sep 20, 2004, at 10:16 PM, Bethryco@... wrote:
that money on her teaching certificate yet you can do it legally
without all the "work". KWIM? Also, if everyone home schooled then
she wouldn't have a job . . . so that might be a little scary for her
to consider.
As far as defending or justifying your unschooling lifestyle to this
friend or your school-at-homer friend ;) -- just remember that you
don't have to. You can show by example and your family's joy and
freedom, but you don't *have* to defend your choices.
As Mary Poppins said, "First of all, I would like to make one thing
perfectly clear. I never explain anything." LOL
-Tracy-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> [I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't believeCould also be that she feels that she "wasted" all those years and all
> that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education
> themselves has the
> ability and right to "teach" their children. I think because she had
> to go
> to several years of college, take classes to learn how to teach, go
> through
> student teaching and get a license, that she feels she is more
> qualified than me
> or another person to "teach" our children.]
that money on her teaching certificate yet you can do it legally
without all the "work". KWIM? Also, if everyone home schooled then
she wouldn't have a job . . . so that might be a little scary for her
to consider.
As far as defending or justifying your unschooling lifestyle to this
friend or your school-at-homer friend ;) -- just remember that you
don't have to. You can show by example and your family's joy and
freedom, but you don't *have* to defend your choices.
As Mary Poppins said, "First of all, I would like to make one thing
perfectly clear. I never explain anything." LOL
-Tracy-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/20/2004 11:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
Could also be that she feels that she "wasted" all those years and all
that money on her teaching certificate yet you can do it legally
without all the "work". KWIM? Also, if everyone home schooled then
she wouldn't have a job . . . so that might be a little scary for her
to consider.<<<
It's not just teachers. Many jobs want some kind of "certificate"
I groom dogs. I learned in the trenches----just plugging along, hanging out
with breeders and handlers and show people. Asking what the owners wanted and
trying my best to do what they asked for. Doing and asking and doing some
more.
There are groomers and owners/grads of grooming schools who are clamoring
for all groomers to be certified. To be certified, you would have to be a
graduate of an accredited school. :-P~~~~*
I'm one who would be grandfathered in because I have enough "time in" and
I've passed the "Master Groomer" quiz. Lucky me.
There are hundreds of self-taught groomers (and I've met many, many of them)
who are absolutely incredible dog people with lovely hands and eyes for
dogs. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to hand my dogs over to them
But there are hundreds of "certified" groomers (and I've personally met
dozens) who don't even know one breed from another, who have no idea how to
handle a difficult pooch---and whom I wouldn't let touch my dogs with a Q-tip.
.*They* are the ones who are trying to kick us out of the club----we didn't
suffer what they suffered.
Hell, I could've been one of their instructors! <g>
Those who have "done their time" are vested in the system. They want the
same for everyone else---for them to do the time too.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
Could also be that she feels that she "wasted" all those years and all
that money on her teaching certificate yet you can do it legally
without all the "work". KWIM? Also, if everyone home schooled then
she wouldn't have a job . . . so that might be a little scary for her
to consider.<<<
It's not just teachers. Many jobs want some kind of "certificate"
I groom dogs. I learned in the trenches----just plugging along, hanging out
with breeders and handlers and show people. Asking what the owners wanted and
trying my best to do what they asked for. Doing and asking and doing some
more.
There are groomers and owners/grads of grooming schools who are clamoring
for all groomers to be certified. To be certified, you would have to be a
graduate of an accredited school. :-P~~~~*
I'm one who would be grandfathered in because I have enough "time in" and
I've passed the "Master Groomer" quiz. Lucky me.
There are hundreds of self-taught groomers (and I've met many, many of them)
who are absolutely incredible dog people with lovely hands and eyes for
dogs. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to hand my dogs over to them
But there are hundreds of "certified" groomers (and I've personally met
dozens) who don't even know one breed from another, who have no idea how to
handle a difficult pooch---and whom I wouldn't let touch my dogs with a Q-tip.
.*They* are the ones who are trying to kick us out of the club----we didn't
suffer what they suffered.
Hell, I could've been one of their instructors! <g>
Those who have "done their time" are vested in the system. They want the
same for everyone else---for them to do the time too.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/20/2004 11:37:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Leslie530@... writes:
h, I could go on and on. I desperately wanted to discuss this book with
someone, and everybody in my real life just RAN when I said "oh, there was
another interesting point in this book I am reading!"<<<
Next time you're in town! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie530@... writes:
h, I could go on and on. I desperately wanted to discuss this book with
someone, and everybody in my real life just RAN when I said "oh, there was
another interesting point in this book I am reading!"<<<
Next time you're in town! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<<<My son is young and
I'm new to unschooling>>>>>>
As your family unschools more years, you will likely find that people think what they want to think and you can use your energy trying to change people who don't want to change or you can use your energy finding joy.
As an unschooling family, you will be the "weird folks done the street" for the rest of your life. Some people will embrace you for it and others will be appalled. Not much you can do about it other than be the best ambassador of unschooling you can be through your behavior.
Just my thoughts.
Julie S.
I'm new to unschooling>>>>>>
As your family unschools more years, you will likely find that people think what they want to think and you can use your energy trying to change people who don't want to change or you can use your energy finding joy.
As an unschooling family, you will be the "weird folks done the street" for the rest of your life. Some people will embrace you for it and others will be appalled. Not much you can do about it other than be the best ambassador of unschooling you can be through your behavior.
Just my thoughts.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bethryco@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:16 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] defense of state regulation question
Recently I have come up against people who have defended the government
regulating education. I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't believe
that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education themselves has the
ability and right to "teach" their children. I think because she had to go
to several years of college, take classes to learn how to teach, go through
student teaching and get a license, that she feels she is more qualified than me
or another person to "teach" our children. She says the license is necessary
and is upset that people with BA degrees can now teach without the license.
She believes that teaching needs to be regulated in some way. Now of course
I'm using the word teach because that's what she does. She teaches. As an
unschooler I realize that word doesn't exist. So stick with me here. What I'm
looking for is an explanation of why public school isn't the best choice for our
kids and why the regulation isn't necessary - or maybe even why it's bad.
I also know another homeschooler who uses a curriculum. My son is young and
I'm new to unschooling, so I don't have to words you all might. I'm looking
for words to defend my position and share reasons why state/government
regulation of education isn't good and why homeschoolers want to be where the
regulations are nonexistent or loose, at least. The homeschooler I spoke with
recently said that there were certain things that she felt people in our society
needed to know and it was her job to teach those things to her son. In the
future, my response to her would be something like, "why do you get to decide what
people in our society - or your son for that matter - NEED to know? Why isn't
what your son wants to know just as important, if not more so." Feel free to
expand on that as well, but the real question here is related to the above.
What do I say to teachers? I know they have their hands tied in many
situations. But how do I articulate the reasons I've decided to homeschool and
specifically UNschool and why do I want the government to keep their hands out of my
business?
I don't mean to say that I don't know these things. Of course, inside me I
know. But I have trouble coming up with the words to share with these people.
Can you share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<Recently I have come up against people who have defended the government
regulating education. I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't
believe that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education
themselves has the ability and right to "teach" their children. >>>
It may not be as helpful to you, but my personal response is to not get
involved in school conversations. Sometimes that means walking away.
Sometimes, as was the case right in my living room with a father of one of
Jayn's friends who wanted to tell me all about the nursery school he was
intending on enrolling his 5yo in, I have to say, "Look I'm an Unschooler
and for my own peace I don't do school conversations." I should add that
*he* might be sure that they are sending the girl, but *his wife* seems to
still be doubting and debating the move herself, and is really interested in
home schooling. If someone were saying, "I think you have to have a
qualification...blah blah" I might try to keep my reply to, "Oh."
There is a saying.
"A man convinced against his will,
Is of his own opinion still."
Sometimes all you can say is, "We're really happy with what we're doing for
now. Our kid is thriving." And then let the joy and enthusiasm of your
children speak for itself.
<<<I also know another homeschooler who uses a curriculum. My son is young
and I'm new to unschooling, so I don't have to words you all might. I'm
looking for words to defend my position and share reasons why
state/government regulation of education isn't good and why homeschoolers
want to be where the regulations are nonexistent or loose, at least.>>>>
The real question is why are you placing yourself in situations where you
have to defend your position? I know that happens unavoidably, such as with
family, but getting into a big discussion isn't always good for your peace
of mind. Feeling defensive is not the same vibe as answering genuine
inquiries coming from a place of real curiosity in the questioner.
I can't concern myself with school regulations or school reform. Better
minds than mine are spending all their lives doing just that. You might
refer people to John Taylor Gatto, as someone mentioned, or Life Learning
Magazine, which has some ads for different books about the nature of
education. (I haven't read them because I'm short on time right now, but
they might appeal to some folk with an interest in that direction).
However regulation of homeschooling is another issue. It seems to largely
come down to the pragmatic situation that state regulation is irrelevant to
the kind of education Unschoolers end up with, and only makes paperwork for
parents without genuinely impacting any of the supposedly "educational"
activities of the household. Since Unschooling considers every activity
valuable to learning, everything is educational. I think there may be some
relevant information at www.nhen.org which has legislative forums and areas
for debate of general homeschooling controversies.
<<<The homeschooler I spoke with
recently said that there were certain things that she felt people in our
society needed to know and it was her job to teach those things to her
son.>>>
How much do you value her friendship? I mean is this something you really
want to have to get into with her, or conversely does it really matter to
try and change her view? Perhaps you could ask her to expand and give
examples of the "certain things". She may end up talking herself out of her
own position. One question for her might be "Why wouldn't he learn that when
he...[some real life situation]?" If it is important in society, then he
would surely learn through interacting with real people in society. Is it
how to stand in line? One trip to Disneyland (or the market) will take care
of that for life.
Sometimes my answer again would be "Oh." I shrug my shoulders a lot. I
recently have begun to simply say, "I'm a Radical Unschooler". That often
ends any of these conversations. Only Jayn being her fabulous self is likely
to make anyone determined and happy in their course think twice. Anyone
already having doubts or searching for a better way (like Unschooling) might
be phrasing their remarks more inquiringly than making sweeping definitive
statements.
I suppose the wider issue of children being treated with respect and not
having to live a life of coercion is an important one for parents to discuss
with one another. Some people are not ready to give up on something as basic
to their children's freedom as letting them read what they like (they have
booklists), or follow an interest fully (they humorously belittle those
interests that are not vocational or important seeming). Getting into the
vibrant, joyous possibilities of Unschooling and mindful parenting with
these people is like moving a mountain. However if we continue to
transparently display our lives of freedom to our acquaintances and
associates maybe our example will be the "irresistible force" that meets the
"immovable object".
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004
regulating education. I have a middle school teacher friend who doesn't
believe that any old parent with no "qualifications" and no education
themselves has the ability and right to "teach" their children. >>>
It may not be as helpful to you, but my personal response is to not get
involved in school conversations. Sometimes that means walking away.
Sometimes, as was the case right in my living room with a father of one of
Jayn's friends who wanted to tell me all about the nursery school he was
intending on enrolling his 5yo in, I have to say, "Look I'm an Unschooler
and for my own peace I don't do school conversations." I should add that
*he* might be sure that they are sending the girl, but *his wife* seems to
still be doubting and debating the move herself, and is really interested in
home schooling. If someone were saying, "I think you have to have a
qualification...blah blah" I might try to keep my reply to, "Oh."
There is a saying.
"A man convinced against his will,
Is of his own opinion still."
Sometimes all you can say is, "We're really happy with what we're doing for
now. Our kid is thriving." And then let the joy and enthusiasm of your
children speak for itself.
<<<I also know another homeschooler who uses a curriculum. My son is young
and I'm new to unschooling, so I don't have to words you all might. I'm
looking for words to defend my position and share reasons why
state/government regulation of education isn't good and why homeschoolers
want to be where the regulations are nonexistent or loose, at least.>>>>
The real question is why are you placing yourself in situations where you
have to defend your position? I know that happens unavoidably, such as with
family, but getting into a big discussion isn't always good for your peace
of mind. Feeling defensive is not the same vibe as answering genuine
inquiries coming from a place of real curiosity in the questioner.
I can't concern myself with school regulations or school reform. Better
minds than mine are spending all their lives doing just that. You might
refer people to John Taylor Gatto, as someone mentioned, or Life Learning
Magazine, which has some ads for different books about the nature of
education. (I haven't read them because I'm short on time right now, but
they might appeal to some folk with an interest in that direction).
However regulation of homeschooling is another issue. It seems to largely
come down to the pragmatic situation that state regulation is irrelevant to
the kind of education Unschoolers end up with, and only makes paperwork for
parents without genuinely impacting any of the supposedly "educational"
activities of the household. Since Unschooling considers every activity
valuable to learning, everything is educational. I think there may be some
relevant information at www.nhen.org which has legislative forums and areas
for debate of general homeschooling controversies.
<<<The homeschooler I spoke with
recently said that there were certain things that she felt people in our
society needed to know and it was her job to teach those things to her
son.>>>
How much do you value her friendship? I mean is this something you really
want to have to get into with her, or conversely does it really matter to
try and change her view? Perhaps you could ask her to expand and give
examples of the "certain things". She may end up talking herself out of her
own position. One question for her might be "Why wouldn't he learn that when
he...[some real life situation]?" If it is important in society, then he
would surely learn through interacting with real people in society. Is it
how to stand in line? One trip to Disneyland (or the market) will take care
of that for life.
Sometimes my answer again would be "Oh." I shrug my shoulders a lot. I
recently have begun to simply say, "I'm a Radical Unschooler". That often
ends any of these conversations. Only Jayn being her fabulous self is likely
to make anyone determined and happy in their course think twice. Anyone
already having doubts or searching for a better way (like Unschooling) might
be phrasing their remarks more inquiringly than making sweeping definitive
statements.
I suppose the wider issue of children being treated with respect and not
having to live a life of coercion is an important one for parents to discuss
with one another. Some people are not ready to give up on something as basic
to their children's freedom as letting them read what they like (they have
booklists), or follow an interest fully (they humorously belittle those
interests that are not vocational or important seeming). Getting into the
vibrant, joyous possibilities of Unschooling and mindful parenting with
these people is like moving a mountain. However if we continue to
transparently display our lives of freedom to our acquaintances and
associates maybe our example will be the "irresistible force" that meets the
"immovable object".
Robyn L. Coburn
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Angela
As an unschooling family, you will be the "weird folks done the street" for
the rest of your life
---------------------------------------
[Angela] Are you trying to tell me that I am one of those weird folks down
the street? <geesh!> LOL! It would be interesting to really know what we
*look like* to other people. <or maybe not!>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the rest of your life
---------------------------------------
[Angela] Are you trying to tell me that I am one of those weird folks down
the street? <geesh!> LOL! It would be interesting to really know what we
*look like* to other people. <or maybe not!>
---
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Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<Some people are not ready to give up on something as basic
to their children's freedom as letting them read what they like (they have
booklists), or follow an interest fully (they humorously belittle those
interests that are not vocational or important seeming).>>>>
I meant "Some people are not ready to give up *CONTROL OF* something as
basic......"
Sorry if that was unclear.
Robyn L. Coburn
to their children's freedom as letting them read what they like (they have
booklists), or follow an interest fully (they humorously belittle those
interests that are not vocational or important seeming).>>>>
I meant "Some people are not ready to give up *CONTROL OF* something as
basic......"
Sorry if that was unclear.
Robyn L. Coburn
Jonni-Ann Goulding
Kelly wrote: "Those who have "done their time" are vested in the system. They want the
same for everyone else---for them to do the time too."
I find this is what most of my extended family's arguments really boil down to at the end of the day. Bhind all of the "how will they learn Science?" and "we all have to do things we don't want to do and how will they learn about the 'real world' without school?" stuff comes the very basic fact that *THEY* all had to endure 12+ years of school which culminated in University which is the measuring stick by which people are judged and therefore the future generations should have to endure it too.
But you know I find myself feeling like I (and probably every other parent on the planet) want "better" for my kids than anything I had and what I've found in the freedom of unschooling is what we are defining as "better".
If I suffer something, I don't wish that same suffering on my children. Mind you, I'm not one of those people with tragic horror stories of school nor do I feel like I was horribly damaged by the experience but I know people who were and of course there were times when it wasn't the ideal. All I am babbling about I think is that I think people have a tendency to validate their own experiences by insisting that others pass them too. And I'm cool with my kids having completely different experiences. :) (And the cool part is how very much I get to learn and explore right along with them!)
Jonni-Ann
***Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad***
kbcdlovejo@... wrote: In a message dated 9/20/2004 11:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
Could also be that she feels that she "wasted" all those years and all
that money on her teaching certificate yet you can do it legally
without all the "work". KWIM? Also, if everyone home schooled then
she wouldn't have a job . . . so that might be a little scary for her
to consider.<<<
It's not just teachers. Many jobs want some kind of "certificate"
I groom dogs. I learned in the trenches----just plugging along, hanging out
with breeders and handlers and show people. Asking what the owners wanted and
trying my best to do what they asked for. Doing and asking and doing some
more.
There are groomers and owners/grads of grooming schools who are clamoring
for all groomers to be certified. To be certified, you would have to be a
graduate of an accredited school. :-P~~~~*
I'm one who would be grandfathered in because I have enough "time in" and
I've passed the "Master Groomer" quiz. Lucky me.
There are hundreds of self-taught groomers (and I've met many, many of them)
who are absolutely incredible dog people with lovely hands and eyes for
dogs. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to hand my dogs over to them
But there are hundreds of "certified" groomers (and I've personally met
dozens) who don't even know one breed from another, who have no idea how to
handle a difficult pooch---and whom I wouldn't let touch my dogs with a Q-tip.
.*They* are the ones who are trying to kick us out of the club----we didn't
suffer what they suffered.
Hell, I could've been one of their instructors! <g>
Those who have "done their time" are vested in the system. They want the
same for everyone else---for them to do the time too.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
same for everyone else---for them to do the time too."
I find this is what most of my extended family's arguments really boil down to at the end of the day. Bhind all of the "how will they learn Science?" and "we all have to do things we don't want to do and how will they learn about the 'real world' without school?" stuff comes the very basic fact that *THEY* all had to endure 12+ years of school which culminated in University which is the measuring stick by which people are judged and therefore the future generations should have to endure it too.
But you know I find myself feeling like I (and probably every other parent on the planet) want "better" for my kids than anything I had and what I've found in the freedom of unschooling is what we are defining as "better".
If I suffer something, I don't wish that same suffering on my children. Mind you, I'm not one of those people with tragic horror stories of school nor do I feel like I was horribly damaged by the experience but I know people who were and of course there were times when it wasn't the ideal. All I am babbling about I think is that I think people have a tendency to validate their own experiences by insisting that others pass them too. And I'm cool with my kids having completely different experiences. :) (And the cool part is how very much I get to learn and explore right along with them!)
Jonni-Ann
***Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad***
kbcdlovejo@... wrote: In a message dated 9/20/2004 11:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
Could also be that she feels that she "wasted" all those years and all
that money on her teaching certificate yet you can do it legally
without all the "work". KWIM? Also, if everyone home schooled then
she wouldn't have a job . . . so that might be a little scary for her
to consider.<<<
It's not just teachers. Many jobs want some kind of "certificate"
I groom dogs. I learned in the trenches----just plugging along, hanging out
with breeders and handlers and show people. Asking what the owners wanted and
trying my best to do what they asked for. Doing and asking and doing some
more.
There are groomers and owners/grads of grooming schools who are clamoring
for all groomers to be certified. To be certified, you would have to be a
graduate of an accredited school. :-P~~~~*
I'm one who would be grandfathered in because I have enough "time in" and
I've passed the "Master Groomer" quiz. Lucky me.
There are hundreds of self-taught groomers (and I've met many, many of them)
who are absolutely incredible dog people with lovely hands and eyes for
dogs. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to hand my dogs over to them
But there are hundreds of "certified" groomers (and I've personally met
dozens) who don't even know one breed from another, who have no idea how to
handle a difficult pooch---and whom I wouldn't let touch my dogs with a Q-tip.
.*They* are the ones who are trying to kick us out of the club----we didn't
suffer what they suffered.
Hell, I could've been one of their instructors! <g>
Those who have "done their time" are vested in the system. They want the
same for everyone else---for them to do the time too.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]