hscomer

I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
how to read i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
voice concern about her not reading yet. How important is it that i
force her to read? is there an age that she should be able to read by?
She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
put it all together i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
you think and anything that might help!!! thanks

Bonnie

Ren Allen

--- In [email protected], "hscomer" <hscomer@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
> how to read

Seeing her as "stubborn" is not going to help her read, nor is it
contributing to trust built between you. She's not being stubborn,
she's not ready to read!!


i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
> voice concern about her not reading yet.

Her own comfort is more important than your family's concern. Seven is
YOUNG. It's very normal for people to learn how to read much later
than that in life.


How important is it that i
> force her to read?

Um...never.
I don't believe force accomplishes anything but bad feelings. YOu
can't really force anyone to learn anything. You can make them
painfully jump through the hoops. You can make her hate reading.

~~is there an age that she should be able to read by? ~~

When she's good and ready to read.


> She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time
to put it all together

Reading isn't just about letters and sounds. Some people will decode
written language without ever learning a letter sound. She doesn't
need to "take the time"...she's SEVEN!

~~i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too~~

You probably wouldn't get burned out if you were actually unschooling.
What you're describing isn't the trust I consider natural learning.


> because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> you think and anything that might help!!! thanks

Recognize that she's VERY young and you need to help her with
whatever she can't do for herself! That's what parents are for. She
needs you to read for her right now...isn't that GREAT? Why rush her
into being older, doing more for herself than she's ready to do?
She'll be grown up and gone and you'll wish you could read for her
someday!

Unschooling is hugely about trust. I highly suggest you read more
about unschooling and natural learning and try really hard to see her
as the very small person she is today.

Seven is not necessarily any kind of "norm" for reading. It's just
what schools have decided is necessary. If you've taken her out of the
system, why hang onto that notion at all? You're FREE. There is NO
magical age she needs to be reading by. None. So act like you're free
and do the things she loves with her, while reading whatever she needs
you to read for her.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

DJ250

I can second what Ren is saying!!!! I used to push and it got us nowhere! My just 9 year old is gleefully grasping this reading thing and loving it. WHY oh WHY do they HAVE to learn to read at a certain age. The more we unschool the more I see just how much my girls are learning about the world around them BECAUSE THEY WANT TO not because I am pushing them to!! They are discovering things their schooled friends can't because they're in school all day. My realization is that we should allow children to be children and play and run and discover. They have no real need to read until they find a need to. As they get older and lose their childhood, then I think it will make more sense to them to use those tools of reading, writing, etc. Let them be children, for crying out loud!

My .02

~Melissa

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:49 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: what about reading??


--- In [email protected], "hscomer" <hscomer@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
> how to read

Seeing her as "stubborn" is not going to help her read, nor is it
contributing to trust built between you. She's not being stubborn,
she's not ready to read!!

i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
> voice concern about her not reading yet.

Her own comfort is more important than your family's concern. Seven is
YOUNG. It's very normal for people to learn how to read much later
than that in life.

How important is it that i
> force her to read?

Um...never.
I don't believe force accomplishes anything but bad feelings. YOu
can't really force anyone to learn anything. You can make them
painfully jump through the hoops. You can make her hate reading.

~~is there an age that she should be able to read by? ~~

When she's good and ready to read.

> She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time
to put it all together

Reading isn't just about letters and sounds. Some people will decode
written language without ever learning a letter sound. She doesn't
need to "take the time"...she's SEVEN!

~~i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too~~

You probably wouldn't get burned out if you were actually unschooling.
What you're describing isn't the trust I consider natural learning.

> because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> you think and anything that might help!!! thanks

Recognize that she's VERY young and you need to help her with
whatever she can't do for herself! That's what parents are for. She
needs you to read for her right now...isn't that GREAT? Why rush her
into being older, doing more for herself than she's ready to do?
She'll be grown up and gone and you'll wish you could read for her
someday!

Unschooling is hugely about trust. I highly suggest you read more
about unschooling and natural learning and try really hard to see her
as the very small person she is today.

Seven is not necessarily any kind of "norm" for reading. It's just
what schools have decided is necessary. If you've taken her out of the
system, why hang onto that notion at all? You're FREE. There is NO
magical age she needs to be reading by. None. So act like you're free
and do the things she loves with her, while reading whatever she needs
you to read for her.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: hscomer <hscomer@...>

I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
how to read

-=-=-=-

"Stubborn" is a very negative way to look at one's own child. How about
considering that she's just not yet *ready* to read?

-=-=-=-=-=-

i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
voice concern about her not reading yet.

-=-=-=-=-

So the grown adult family members' opinions are more important than the
child herself?

Really---everyone reads at different times. There's no "magic age" for
reading.

-=-=-=-=-

How important is it that i force her to read?

-=-=-=-=-

On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being most important? Negative 3. <G>

-=-=-=-=-

is there an age that she should be able to read by?

-=-=-=-=-

I would think that she MUST read by the time she moves out into her own
apartment. <g>

Seriously, what NEED does a seven year old have in reading? How would
reading actually help a seven year old BE a seven year old? She has you
by her side to read things for her, right?

-=-=-=-=-

She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
put it all together

-=-=-=-=-=-

You're assuming all it takes is taking the time. It's about a LOT more
than that. It's about how reading "clicks" for each individual. If you
were to learning to read Greek or Russian and knew all the letters and
sounds, would that mean that all you needed to do is to "take the time
to put it all together"? Don't you think it's a bit more than just that?

-=-=-=-=-

i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
you think and anything that might help!!! thanks

-=-=-=-=-

I agree with Ren that you probably aren't quite understanding how
unschooling works. It can take a LOT of reading to/for her before it
clicks for her. Duncan is 12, and I'm still spelling occasional words
for him and telling him what new words are and reading for him. But he
can read almost everything---all from learning organically, by being
surrounded by the written word and by my reading to/for him for years
and years.

Take a deep breath before you ----don't say "have to"---choose the
phrase "GET TO"------before you GET TO read to your daughter. Don't
show her your frustration at helping her to read. What kind of message
is that? Show her that you LOVE to help her learn, that you *want* to
help her learn! Know that this is NOT a permanent state, that she WILL
read when she's ready---and not a moment before.

I can money-back guarantee that the *second* you quit worrying, she
will read.

How patient are you? <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Carron Armstrong

Hi Bonnie,

It's scary isn't it? I was scared, too. My son was having such a hard time
reading on my schedule. He loved being read to, knew his letter and his
sounds, but struggled with the words. The more I encouraged (forced), the
more he resisted. I finally let up because I was so afraid that reading was
becoming a chore for him and that he would sour on it forever. About the
time he turned 8, he was into Pokemon. He traded cards with his friends for
a year before he decided he wanted to learn to play the game. To play the
game, he had to read the cards. That was the trigger for him.

Still, it wasn't until he was 12 before he started reading for pleasure. He
did that on his own. Harry Potter helped there. Now about 15, he will
hardly leave the house without a book in his hand. He especially loves sci
fi and fantasy, but right now he's reading a new book about video game
violence called Grand Theft Childhood.

Carron
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:03 PM, hscomer <hscomer@...> wrote:

> I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
> how to read i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
> voice concern about her not reading yet. How important is it that i
> force her to read? is there an age that she should be able to read by?
> She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
> put it all together i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
> because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> you think and anything that might help!!! thanks
>
> Bonnie
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

My son is 11. He has all the pieces to the puzzle individually, but he hasn't put the puzzle together yet. He will, of that I have no doubt, but he isn't there yet. I don't think it is stubborness or being mule-headed that is keeping him from reading, I think he isn't developmentally ready yet. I don't think that neurologically all the reading material is there. Because he lives in a reading rich environment where negotiating through and around and with reading material is a part of day to day life I know that he will make those connections. My daughter is 8, she started reading at 6. There is nothing different in their immediate environments. It is all about them and the way their brains work. There are a lot of wonderful stories at http://sandradodd.com/reading about the ways in which reading has played out in unschoolers homes. You can't force your daughter to read, but you can force her to see herself as being too stupid to be able to read. Or like
she is a failure or like she is being lazy or difficult.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----
From: hscomer <hscomer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 2:03:15 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] what about reading??

I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
how to read i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
voice concern about her not reading yet. How important is it that i
force her to read? is there an age that she should be able to read by?
She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
put it all together i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
you think and anything that might help!!! thanks

Bonnie


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lei_seattle7

-A child needs to find reading as something enjoyable not
frustrating. At 7y/o, a child will see it as parents do. If you view
or show that reading is fun, that's how the child will view it. If
it's tiring for you, then it becomes a negative experience.

Now, my daughter, 11y/o is a bookworm. I remember just reading to her
picture books, since I will definitely doze off if there's no picture
in a book. But she reads & reads even the book looks like fine print
to me.

So, don't worry. In time, when she's ready to read...then be sure
you'd be ready to get up & go to the library.

Oh, regarding the other adults, Question: Isn't pushing
someone...rude/hurtful? Don't we teach our kids not to do that to
others? just asking

Lorelei

-- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hscomer <hscomer@...>
>
> I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about
learning
> how to read
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> "Stubborn" is a very negative way to look at one's own child. How
about
> considering that she's just not yet *ready* to read?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
> voice concern about her not reading yet.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> So the grown adult family members' opinions are more important than
the
> child herself?
>
> Really---everyone reads at different times. There's no "magic age"
for
> reading.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> How important is it that i force her to read?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being most important? Negative 3.
<G>
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> is there an age that she should be able to read by?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I would think that she MUST read by the time she moves out into her
own
> apartment. <g>
>
> Seriously, what NEED does a seven year old have in reading? How
would
> reading actually help a seven year old BE a seven year old? She has
you
> by her side to read things for her, right?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time
to
> put it all together
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> You're assuming all it takes is taking the time. It's about a LOT
more
> than that. It's about how reading "clicks" for each individual. If
you
> were to learning to read Greek or Russian and knew all the letters
and
> sounds, would that mean that all you needed to do is to "take the
time
> to put it all together"? Don't you think it's a bit more than just
that?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
> because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> you think and anything that might help!!! thanks
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I agree with Ren that you probably aren't quite understanding how
> unschooling works. It can take a LOT of reading to/for her before
it
> clicks for her. Duncan is 12, and I'm still spelling occasional
words
> for him and telling him what new words are and reading for him. But
he
> can read almost everything---all from learning organically, by
being
> surrounded by the written word and by my reading to/for him for
years
> and years.
>
> Take a deep breath before you ----don't say "have to"---choose the
> phrase "GET TO"------before you GET TO read to your daughter. Don't
> show her your frustration at helping her to read. What kind of
message
> is that? Show her that you LOVE to help her learn, that you *want*
to
> help her learn! Know that this is NOT a permanent state, that she
WILL
> read when she's ready---and not a moment before.
>
> I can money-back guarantee that the *second* you quit worrying, she
> will read.
>
> How patient are you? <g>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>

healthunlimited1

> > because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> > you think and anything that might help!!! thanks
>
> Recognize that she's VERY young and you need to help her with
> whatever she can't do for herself! That's what parents are for. She
> needs you to read for her right now...isn't that GREAT? Why rush her
> into being older, doing more for herself than she's ready to do?
> She'll be grown up and gone and you'll wish you could read for her
> someday!

My DS is 15 and I still read most things to him. Can he read? Yes, but it doesn't come
easy to him. Maybe with maturity it will all kick in and he'll become a reader... but maybe
not. He's never been a book person even when he was little - although we did read to him
it wasn't one of his favorite things. And most of his favorite books were hands on books
like pop ups and such. Right now he's big into World of Warcraft and is brilliant at the
game. That game has definitely helped him with his reading ability along with other
things. Occasionally he asks me how to spell words for the game. There's plenty of
reading opportunities on the game. Great. However, if he needs to read something from a
book he will ask me to read it to him. So be it. He is who he is, he is where he is and it's
my job to meet him there.

By the way... don't know if I've mentioned this here or not as I don't post often --- but DS
is teaching me to play WoW and I'm pleased to announce that I leveled up last night ...
yes... to level 8! Woo Hoo!! LOL

Shileen

Melissa Gray

It so depends on the child. If I was in that position (and I have
been) I'd trust that she knew the basic mechanics and will put it
together when it's time. Rachel, my daughter, was in preK and they
pushed reading so hard that *I* started to freak out, and I began
gently pushing her (Just saying, "You know this, sound it out") What
it led to was a complete resistance. The breaking point was just as
she turned five, her throwing a book that *I* should have been
reading across the room and screaming "YOU CAN'T MAKE ME LEARN TO
READ!" I felt so horrible (rightfully so) and apologized to her right
then with "You're right, no one can make you do something you don't
want." We pulled them out of school, and within four months we were
unschooling. Two months later she was reading on a second grade level.

Schools push literacy so hard, and so early, because they are
convinced that reading late causes adult illiteracy. The fact is that
they don't know why people are illiterate, but it has nothing to do
with unschooled reading, and everything to do with the disconnect
that children feel in homes and in schools.

Be glad you can read to her, it might not be long before she decides
she doesn't need you. Enjoy every moment. My son at 12yo still
enjoyed a bedtime reading, and like a lightswitch at 13yo decided he
was done. :-( I should be thankful, with six other kids to read to at
night, but it's kind of sad.

Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com



On May 7, 2008, at 8:03 PM, hscomer wrote:

> I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
> how to read i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
> voice concern about her not reading yet. How important is it that i
> force her to read? is there an age that she should be able to read by?
> She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
> put it all together i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
> because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> you think and anything that might help!!! thanks
>
> Bonnie
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nicole durbin

Enjoy the time reading :)
Once kids learn to read doesn't mean they won't want or need to be read to again.
My son started reading like crazy at six, but is now wanting me to read out loud more often again, he's nearly eight. I'm so excited to have the opportunity! As far as feeling "burned out", change that. Get some books on cd's (amazon?), whatever YOU need to be in the moment. Your daughter is, and will be, just fine.



---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Starr

When I first started homeschooling (before unschooling), my eldest son
was 5 years old and I was being questioned about his reading, or
rather his lack of it, so I decided to *teach* him to read...needless
to say the both of us got really frustrated (he just wasn't ready).
It was about this time that I heard of the book, "Better late than
early" (or something along those lines), and this is when I decided to
back off on the reading.

I left the issue of reading, and in the meantime found out about
"unschooling", and decided I would trust that he would read when he
was ready...well, he is almost 9 years old, and although he can read,
it is really not his favourite thing to do...and then guess what?

Tonight for the first time he picked up a book, Children's Classics,
and decided to read himself a story!

My second son, who is 7 years old has always loved books, and at the
age of about 5 taught himself to read.

I spend a lot of my time spelling words for them if they ask, or
reading words to them, and I find they are not limited in what they
read...meaning they don't feel they can only read certain things or
are at a certain reading "level"...like when you get those "grade
level" readers, that you have to start on level 1 and work your way up
kind of thing...and you don't go to the next level until you have
"mastered" the required level...my kids haven't done that and so they
aren't limited - they will read anything and everything - even my
emails - I often have them reading over my shoulder! LOL

Your daughter will read - when she is ready.

Enjoy your time with her...that is what is important:o)

~* Starr *~



--- In [email protected], "hscomer" <hscomer@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
> how to read i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
> voice concern about her not reading yet. How important is it that i
> force her to read? is there an age that she should be able to read by?
> She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
> put it all together i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
> because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> you think and anything that might help!!! thanks
>
> Bonnie
>

keetry

--- In [email protected], nicole durbin
<shannikki1@...> wrote:
>
> Enjoy the time reading :)
> Once kids learn to read doesn't mean they won't want or need to be
read to again.
> My son started reading like crazy at six, but is now wanting me to
read out loud more often again, he's nearly eight. I'm so excited to
have the opportunity! As far as feeling "burned out", change that. Get
some books on cd's (amazon?), whatever YOU need to be in the moment.
Your daughter is, and will be, just fine.


I read to my oldest son every night until he was at least 11, probably
older but maybe not as regularly. He was very proficient at reading at
a much younger age. He just liked it when I read to him. It never
occured to me to question it or not do it.

Alysia

Carron Armstrong

Sounds like my brother in law. A wonderful man with a lovely (though
conventional) family, a good job, nice house in the suburbs, etc. He is a
degreed engineer, a very hands on person. Wonderful conversationalist.
Would take the shirt off his back to help anyone. Yet, he claims to
have never read a book for fun in his life. Says he hasn't read a book
since college. Doesn't even like to read the newspaper. His wife confirms
this. Does he read in his job? Sure (he's the safety officer for a paving
company). But he just doesn't get any pleasure from reading. He's still a
great guy.

Carron


On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:22 AM, healthunlimited1 <shileennixon@...>
wrote:

>
> > > because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
> > > you think and anything that might help!!! thanks
> >
> > Recognize that she's VERY young and you need to help her with
> > whatever she can't do for herself! That's what parents are for. She
> > needs you to read for her right now...isn't that GREAT? Why rush her
> > into being older, doing more for herself than she's ready to do?
> > She'll be grown up and gone and you'll wish you could read for her
> > someday!
>
> My DS is 15 and I still read most things to him. Can he read? Yes, but it
> doesn't come
> easy to him. Maybe with maturity it will all kick in and he'll become a
> reader... but maybe
> not. He's never been a book person even when he was little - although we
> did read to him
> it wasn't one of his favorite things. And most of his favorite books were
> hands on books
> like pop ups and such. Right now he's big into World of Warcraft and is
> brilliant at the
> game. That game has definitely helped him with his reading ability along
> with other
> things. Occasionally he asks me how to spell words for the game. There's
> plenty of
> reading opportunities on the game. Great. However, if he needs to read
> something from a
> book he will ask me to read it to him. So be it. He is who he is, he is
> where he is and it's
> my job to meet him there.
>
> By the way... don't know if I've mentioned this here or not as I don't post
> often --- but DS
> is teaching me to play WoW and I'm pleased to announce that I leveled up
> last night ...
> yes... to level 8! Woo Hoo!! LOL
>
> Shileen
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>

Sounds like my brother in law. <snip> Yet, he claims to
have never read a book for fun in his life. Says he hasn't read a book
since college. Doesn't even like to read the newspaper. His wife
confirms
this. Does he read in his job? Sure (he's the safety officer for a
paving
company). But he just doesn't get any pleasure from reading.

-=-=-=-

Why do you think that would be?

Why do you think a person wouldn't LIKE to read?

I know that husband, Ben, and sons, Cameron (20), and Duncan (12) get
more info through pictures than words. It's just a better way for them
to collect information: photos, drawings, movies, TV, screens---it's
just their favorite ways of making connections. All can read---and DO
read for pleasure now, but all would choose pictures, still or moving,
FIRST for info.

I also know that Cam told me after leaving school at the end of sixth
grade that he would never read another book----ever! He was 18 before
he actually read a book from cover to cover ---and that book was Rue's
Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life! <g> Now he's rarely without
a book in his hands.

When I first met Ben, he told me that he hadn't read a book since
middle school. He used Cliff's Notes, friends, and classroom discussion
to answer questions and get by in high school and college.

Duncan, always unschooled, has never had a problem with the written
word (he just likes pictures).

I have to blame school and its tactics for Ben and Cameron's loathing
of reading for so long. They both needed lots of healing time to
develop a tolerance (and eventual love) of reading.

For all three, I modeled reading, read *to* them, offered books I
thought they'd like, and just enjoyed reading myself. They've learned
to take pleasure in it.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
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Carron Armstrong

I don't know my BIL's school experiences except that his wife says he did
well in school. I also remember her telling me that by BIL never read to
the kids when they little, but he has always been an extremely involved
parent in other ways -- sports and scouting and other things his boys want
to do.
I understand what you're saying. My kids have never been to school, but I
often see this in other children who leave school and join our homeschool
community. It takes so long for them to find pleasure and comfort in
reading and learning. We attend a homeschool co-op the offers really
relaxed, fun classes. I've seen so many of these kids blossom when they
begin to trust that learning is fun.

Carron


On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 12:29 AM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@... <carronna%40gmail.com>>
>
> Sounds like my brother in law. <snip> Yet, he claims to
> have never read a book for fun in his life. Says he hasn't read a book
> since college. Doesn't even like to read the newspaper. His wife
> confirms
> this. Does he read in his job? Sure (he's the safety officer for a
> paving
> company). But he just doesn't get any pleasure from reading.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Why do you think that would be?
>
> Why do you think a person wouldn't LIKE to read?
>
> I know that husband, Ben, and sons, Cameron (20), and Duncan (12) get
> more info through pictures than words. It's just a better way for them
> to collect information: photos, drawings, movies, TV, screens---it's
> just their favorite ways of making connections. All can read---and DO
> read for pleasure now, but all would choose pictures, still or moving,
> FIRST for info.
>
> I also know that Cam told me after leaving school at the end of sixth
> grade that he would never read another book----ever! He was 18 before
> he actually read a book from cover to cover ---and that book was Rue's
> Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life! <g> Now he's rarely without
> a book in his hands.
>
> When I first met Ben, he told me that he hadn't read a book since
> middle school. He used Cliff's Notes, friends, and classroom discussion
> to answer questions and get by in high school and college.
>
> Duncan, always unschooled, has never had a problem with the written
> word (he just likes pictures).
>
> I have to blame school and its tactics for Ben and Cameron's loathing
> of reading for so long. They both needed lots of healing time to
> develop a tolerance (and eventual love) of reading.
>
> For all three, I modeled reading, read *to* them, offered books I
> thought they'd like, and just enjoyed reading myself. They've learned
> to take pleasure in it.
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org<http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
> are at http://domains.aol.com
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

Do you feel stressed about helping your DD get breakfast in the morning?
About helping her by doing the laundry? About doing the grocery
shopping? After all, you HAVE TO do ALL the driving to get her places
like the library and the park. My guess is that you recognize that at
some point in her life, she'll be able to drive a car, reach down the
bowl and the cereal and pour from a heavy gallon of milk, manage her own
laundry, etc. Reading is NO different - those are all tools/skills for
navigating the world around her - reading is not an end in itself,
separate and in a vacuum from the rest of life. When that skill/tool is
important to her *for her own purposes* and when all the bits of Her
Self are ready, then reading will happen the same way spoken language
happened when she was a tot.

And, FWIW, she may end up choosing NOT to drive a car (many people in
large cities with mass transit don't bother with it and by the time
she's old enough, who knows what the situation with regard to
automobiles, fuel costs, etc will be); she may end up grabbing a juice
box and a granola bar for breakfast or grabbing something from a bakery
or Burger King for breakfast so she doesn't need to 'make' breakfast;
she may drop off her laundry at a laundromat that does the washing and
folding for a price - heck she might even have someone come in and do
her laundry (and other housework) for her.

Deb


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Debra Rossing

DS is almost 10 (less than a month now - waahh my baby is growing up!)
and has been -able- to read since he was about 5. We were recently
cleaning out loads of books that we're never going to touch again (that
is, books that DH and I are no longer wanting, we haven't yet touched
DS' stuff but we'll get there once we get the office room turned into a
guest room for MIL to visit). While DS and I were taking our second load
to the book recycle bin down the street, I asked him about books and
reading because he hasn't picked up a book in ages (that doesn't mean
he's not reading though - he devours Pokemon magazine and game
instructions and cheats and such). Mostly I wanted to make sure that it
wasn't a physical issue (my mom has really bad eyesight and badly needed
glasses which she didn't get until high school!). He said Nope, he could
read fine, didn't hurt his eyes or cause headaches or look 'funny', it
was just that he didn't like sitting and looking at all those words -
he'd rather be moving. No kidding, lol, this is a kid who makes
videogames aerobic exercise and who can't think or talk without roaming
and bouncing and MOVING. He learns in motion and reading is just not all
that for him.

Deb


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

>DS is teaching me to play WoW and I'm pleased to announce that I
leveled up last night ... yes... to level 8! Woo Hoo!! LOL
Whoo hoo - Didja know that I beat Pokemon Ruby a while back?! Hooray for
us!

Deb


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

>Says he hasn't read a book since college.
The vet our dog(s) go to doesn't read for pleasure either - he reads
LOTS since veterinary medicine is changing all the time and he keeps up
with that and animal husbandry and all. But, he rarely if ever reads for
pleasure and then it's only non-fiction (for instance, I think there was
a biography of Ben Franklin or John Adams or someone a few years ago
that he read). Great guy, loves critters, but just doesn't read for
pleasure - he'd rather be out in the field or the barn with the
critters.

Deb


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

This brings to mind great examples of what I tell my kids all the
time... EVERYTHING in life is a choice. This whole conversation of
choices at my house began with an observation of my oldest who had
noticed that some people had less than others. I have always
maintained that in my opinion that people chose their life path. If
you aren't happy about your finances etc then you make the choice to
do something different to improve your situation or make your
situation more comfortable (move to a smaller house, cut your budget,
get a better job etc) While I do think that when you find yourself
in a position fortunate enough to have excess you should share that
with someone less fortunate..it's how we all keep our "village"
healthy and safe.

Anyway all these things in life that the world tries to tell us we
must "learn" or that we must "teach" our children are for the most
part crap... all 4 of my kids can read in varying degrees and none of
them were taught to read in a classroom or at home (2 of them read
before attending K & 1st in a traditional school). Luckily my kids
have friends who have chosen and been supported in choosing different
ways to do things... some that don't have driver's license even though
they are old enough ... my almost 18 yr old doesn't have her license
because she didn't feel ready...my dad still thinks that I am
encouraging her "over cautiousness" rather than than my view that I
am respecting her knowing herself and her own readiness for the
license. I just love this affirmation that different paths are just
different .. not right not wrong just different!
Lisa B












--- In [email protected], "Debra Rossing"
<debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>

> And, FWIW, she may end up choosing NOT to drive a car (many people in
> large cities with mass transit don't bother with it and by the time
> she's old enough, who knows what the situation with regard to
> automobiles, fuel costs, etc will be); she may end up grabbing a juice
> box and a granola bar for breakfast or grabbing something from a bakery
> or Burger King for breakfast so she doesn't need to 'make' breakfast;
> she may drop off her laundry at a laundromat that does the washing and
> folding for a price - heck she might even have someone come in and do
> her laundry (and other housework) for her.
>
> Deb
>
>
>

Ren Allen

~~If
you aren't happy about your finances etc then you make the choice to
do something different to improve your situation or make your
situation more comfortable (move to a smaller house, cut your budget,
get a better job etc) ~~

The African continent didn't choose to get raped by the rest of the
world. People don't choose famine or oppression or other circumstances
they are born into and have little to NO way out of. I think life is
hugely about choice, but it's more about how we choose to act/think
within situations we may or may NOT choose.

People don't choose poverty most of the time (some do and are living
quite well within that label...some homesteaders I know are wealthy in
all but finances) and I think it's cold-hearted to say that everyone
chooses, so they should just choose to have a better life.

I didn't choose to have the real estate market fall apart as my
husband found the career he truly loves. We do the best we can with
circumstances sometimes.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Jeanette Crichton

>>The vet our dog(s) go to doesn't read for pleasure either - he reads
LOTS since veterinary medicine is changing all the time and he keeps up
with that and animal husbandry and all.


My husband always asks me why I don't read for pleasure, because I don't read fiction. The funny thing is that I get great pleasure out of what I read, even if it is the most dull reading material ever to him! I can not remember EVER finishing a novel (I have skimmed many for college literature classes, etc). I just don't care about the characters the way some people do. If I know that it really happened (like a biography, etc) I am way more interested. I wish that teachers would have seen my love for true non-fiction (not textbooks). Even now, my husband reads novels to my 5 year old and I stick to reading stuff that I'm interested in. My 5yo loves all genres.

Jeanette



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon Bonafede

My son is almost eight and he knew the letters and sounds but did not make
much effort to read beyond what he needed to play his video games - yes, no,
load, continue and save. We tried phonics until he said can't I just learn
the words mom. We started with site words. We would flash through the same
words everyday for a week and add a couple words here and there. We played
games with the words and such but that didn't seem to work and we were both
bored. We "hibernate" January and February because it is just too cold to go
outside for very long. So during those months, though I considered us
unschoolers he felt the need for something education he could do every day
online.

I found a site called time4learning.com which has small daily units. My son
chooses to do this telling me when and what he wants to do today and for how
long or if he just wants to play on the playground (another part of the site
traditionally used as a reward incentive). There is a progression to it and
if you do it in order it tells you where to go next. My son prefers to do it
this way. However, I know other unschoolers who choose to jump around.
Anyway, he is currently go through grade 1 Language Arts.

Each unit is broken into four or five parts that has short instruction or
game focusing on an area like yesterday we did "th" and three site words.
The last part is a decodable story with cute pictures. If the child doesn't
know the word all you have to do is click it and it will read it to them. My
son chooses to try and then checks himself. If he is right he usually moves
on to the next. When he first started he would click each word so many times
I had to leave the room - it drove me crazy! He got it though. After a few
months he is reading it pretty much by himself.

We generally all - seven year old on the sofa, three year old on his lap,
three month old on my lap - do the units together for Langauge Arts, Math,
Science and Social Studies. It has been a lot of fun.

Shannon



_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of hscomer
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] what about reading??



I have a 7 yr old daughter that is being very stubborn about learning
how to read i have not been pushing her but my family is starting to
voice concern about her not reading yet. How important is it that i
force her to read? is there an age that she should be able to read by?
She knows all her letters and her sounds but will not take the time to
put it all together i love unschooling but i am getting burned out too
because i have to do all the reading for her please let me know what
you think and anything that might help!!! thanks

Bonnie






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Jeanette Crichton
<jeanettec_99@...> wrote:
> I wish that teachers would have seen my love for true non-fiction
(not textbooks).

My 6yo loves non-fiction. She especially enjoys how-to sorts of books
and how-its-made books. We've even found a few, older textbooks that
are so well laid out that they are a pleasure to read (imagine that!).
But yeah, I've had friends and family who wanted to buy Mo a book for a
gift ask "what does she like to read" and flat-out not believe me when
I told them and buy some work of fiction instead. Oh well, *I* enjoy
reading childrens fiction!

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 10, 2008, at 10:09 PM, Shannon Bonafede wrote:

> but did not make
> much effort to read beyond what he needed to play his video games

Why should he?

It's only when we have expectations of how kids should learn and how
much they should learn that we end up seeing them as "less than".

But *he* was learning exactly as humans naturally learn: he was using
a tool (reading) for the purpose *he* needed it for. He had mastered
the part he needed. He didn't need it for any other purpose at the
time so why should he expand his skills?

It's like wondering why a kid who rides on the street isn't pushing
himself to ride on ramps. Or wondering why a child who has figured
out enough math to work with his allowance isn't sitting down and
learning algebra. Or wondering why an adult who has mastered omelets
to their own standards isn't putting effort into mastering cake baking.

Why should he put in effort beyond his needs? How many kids had to
put effort into learning to speak or walk? They may have put effort
into mastering what they wanted at the time: getting up on their
feet, asking questions to figure out why their internal model of
English wasn't working ("Why is it ran not runned?") but the put in
just exactly the right amount of effort to get what they needed for
their right-now purposes.

Really it's only schools that put it into our heads that learning
take effort. But that's because they use methods that aren't natural
to how humans learn and put a dead line on when something must be
learned. When kids can use whatever way is natural to them on
whatever schedule is natural to them, then we shouldn't be
*expecting* them to put in effort.

At some point, they may *choose* to pull in a large chunk of
information or master a skill and put effort into learning it, but
that will be their choice not because effort is necessary for learning.

> Each unit is broken into four or five parts that has short
> instruction or
> game focusing on an area like yesterday we did "th" and three site
> words.

This will come across as anti-educational but it isn't.

The above IS NOT NECESSARY IN ORDER TO LEARN TO READ.

I know for certain that a bunch of moms went to the site when they
read the message. Some or even most will have gone with the thought
"Oh, fun games for reading. If it's fun, and I don't make them, then
it's part of unschooling."

But the real true reason they went is because underneath they don't
trust that learning to read is as easy as learning to speak English.
They want the comfort of "do this get this result." But, since
they're drawn to unschooling, they'll settle for "do this and help
toward this result." And the reason I know that is that parents
aren't sending for sites to the list that promise fun games for
mastering spoken English. They *know* from experience kids will learn
to speak in their own time just by living life. And yet they send
sites for reading and math.

In order to learn to read kids need what they had to master spoken
English: English being spoken around them, a need to use it, patient
people to answer questions and point out cool stuff.

> We generally all - seven year old on the sofa, three year old on
> his lap,
> three month old on my lap - do the units together for Langauge
> Arts, Math,
> Science and Social Studies. It has been a lot of fun.

An eclectic homeschooler once wrote in asking about unschoolers and
lessons: "I 'make' my kids do their math ... lying in a puddle of
sunshine on the front room floor, wrap-ups in the recliner, Math
Minute drills, etc. Right now, the two younger ones are playing
dominos ... MATH! but would unschooling REALLY say not to give them
seat work to practice their basic number skills, and on a consistent
basis?"

Those lessons sound so homey and joyful. If lessons can be made so
wonderful, why would unschoolers deprive their kids?

It's the job of eclectic homeschooling parents to find ways to make
learning play. It's what soothes ecelctic parents but it isn't
necessary for learning. It's the job of unschooling parents to see
the learning that's already in play and to help our kids reach the
parts of the world that intrigue them or might intrigue them (and
avoid the parts they want to avoid!)

I think the most helpful thing a parent can do for themselves and
their kids is -- until the parent knows to the core of their being
that learning comes from being engaged in what interests someone --
that they should stay far away from sites that divide the world up
into school subjects with the promise of fun. Why? Not because
unschoolers are anti-educational but because the world is huge and
they won't miss something they need by living life. And because we
naturally learn by pulling building blocks from contexts that
interest us and constructing our own model of the universe in our
heads, NOT from memorizing someone else's bits and pieces that aren't
in a meaningful context.

The way humans naturally learn is chaotic and messy and seems hit and
miss. It makes parents nervous! And yet that's how we are hardwired
to learn. Educational sites will sooth parents' worries but they
aren't necessary for children to learn.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 11, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> Why? Not because
> unschoolers are anti-educational but because the world is huge and
> they won't miss something they need by living life.

There was an idea I was trying to get at but missed.

What if that educational site is one that the kids would have loved?

Well, what if the kids spent all their time on an educational site
and missed something they would have liked even better? What if the
child has the soul of an Italian and would have flourished growing up
in Italy? The world is huge and they won't get to see everything.
Educational sites are just a miniscule portion of the small part of
the world they have access to.

The child won't be deprived of learning what he needs if parents
avoid places that will hamper the *parents'* understanding of
unschooling. The world has a million things to do. There's a huge
number of *other* things that the child can explore to find what they
like.

If someone is leaning toward unschooling and is investigating fun
educational sites, how much time to you spend searching through TV
listing for programs they might like? Video game reviews? Watching
things moving in ponds? Baking bread? Researching favorite characters
to find out more for your kids?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]