earthmothergypsy

We had an unusual situation happen yesterday and I would love your
opinions on it and what to do in the future.

Our landowners (who have a hunting cabin on the property that we
rent) were up over the weekend. The are what we commonly
call "citiots" (idiots from the city). They have no common sense or
courtisy for living in the country. We teach our children to respect
nature and the earth around up. We are studing native american
culture and are trying to "teach by example" how to respect the world
we are in. They know that nature talks if we listen. So, when one
of these landowners cut down a tree thoughtlessly, our 6 yr old dd
got upset and she told them that they hurt that tree. She also went
on to tell them that trees have feelings too and can talk.

Well, dd and I were sitting looking at a letters book-(this was
something *she* brought to me and wanted to do)- yesterday and the
landowners dropped in to let us know that they were leaving. Then
proceeded to make a point of telling dd in front of me in a
condensending way (trying to undermine me and discredit my teachings)
taht "trees do not talk". I told him that they most certainly do if
you listen. They don't speak our language, but they do speak. He
then counters "they make noise when the wind blows through them, but
they DON'T TALK". He made this point one last time before walking
away. I leaned over and whispered into dd's ear (not a good choice
here-but I was ticked) "he's stupid, but we won't tell him that". DD
just laughed and giggled about it. It didn't seem to phase her much
with what he was saying, but it really made me mad that he felt he
had the right to push *his* opinion on my family. What he did was no
different than telling a Christian family's children that Jesus
doesn't exsist. (Not to bring up religion-it is just a reference.)
It was wrong-totally wrong. Not to mention none of his business. He
had no right to question what I teach my children, not to mention the
fact that he has no right undermining my teaching, my parenting, or
anything else in my life.

I stood my ground on our beliefs in front of my dd. She saw that I
didn't waiver at all. I even stayed polite (what a task that was!)
and answered him in simple terms. My only concern now is what he
will try and do next time he is around. I don't want my kids alone
with him at all (which is challenging since we share a yard when they
are here). I am even considering, because of his disrespect for our
family, to not allow him in our house unless it is to repair
something. No more sitting down to visit and chat. I think he
stepped over the line with this and I just don't want him here
undermining us and being disrespectful to our family.

So, what would you have done and how would you have handled this?

~Amanda

TreeGoddess

Amanda,

Tough situation. Hmmm . . . if you don't see him that often maybe it's
better just to leave well enough alone. My concern would be if he were
to tell you to get off his land or raise your rent or something like
that. I completely agree with you about respect for trees (hence my
email addy of "treegoddess" ;') BUT he cut his own tree on his own land
and probably felt "judged" and irked that it was "his" tree, yada yada.
KWIM?

You're probably really angry with him right now, but that anger isn't
going to help you to keep staying on the land that you and your family
holds dear.

Best wishes,
-Tracy-

earthmothergypsy

Ya, I am upset, but not to the point of doing anything stupid. <G>
What I also worry about is the fact that if he were to decide he
thought we weren't "teaching" our children right or decided (if he
found out) that he did't like homebirth, that we will have
authorities called in. I don't care to live my life in fear, but if
he is this disrespectful, then he is capable of anything imo. He
feels only "his" way of thinking is right, no matter how wrong it
is. He has always been this way and I either avoid him or just blow
off what he says because of it. This whole family owns the land and
he is the nephew of the owners in the corporation. This land is very
secluded and beautiful and we usually don't have to see the owners or
any of the family that much--just hunting season. Back in February
the president of the corp died and he was who we always worked with.
His sister took over his position and she is a sweet lady, but she
lives in Texas and that leaves the nephews near by thinking they can
do what ever the wish (not having to follow the rules of the corp)
and it is getting difficult to deal with. This fellow already had
issues with the fact that he had no say in anything before and now is
trying to be "big boss" which he is not. His Aunt has knocked him
down a few pegs already a couple of times in the last few months.
He has big control issue and this latest thing is him trying to push
his control off on my family. Sad.

You are right in the sense that he does feel his actions questioned,
but geeze, he was challenged by a 6 yr old???? What does that say
about him. lol! It really is a control issue for him. <G> And he
won't be getting it with MY kids.

Thanks for the help and opinion!

~A

--- In [email protected], TreeGoddess
<treegoddess@c...> wrote:
> Amanda,
>
> Tough situation. Hmmm . . . if you don't see him that often maybe
it's
> better just to leave well enough alone. My concern would be if he
were
> to tell you to get off his land or raise your rent or something
like
> that. I completely agree with you about respect for trees (hence
my
> email addy of "treegoddess" ;') BUT he cut his own tree on his own
land
> and probably felt "judged" and irked that it was "his" tree, yada
yada.
> KWIM?
>
> You're probably really angry with him right now, but that anger
isn't
> going to help you to keep staying on the land that you and your
family
> holds dear.
>
> Best wishes,
> -Tracy-

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/20/2004 11:35:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
earthmothergypsy@... writes:

So, when one
of these landowners cut down a tree thoughtlessly, our 6 yr old dd
got upset and she told them that they hurt that tree.<<<<<


I know you will probably get lots of posts on dealing with land owner etc.
But you could show your daughter all the things that live in rotting trees,
and that even though you can't repair the tree it will be home to lots of
animals and will help to replenish the earth. You could talk about what you
could do with the tree, branches can make neat end tables etc with a piece of
glass on top. Recycling so the tree will be useful again. Some trees you can
take cuttings and root them. Those types of things might help your daughter
with the tree issue. I know it won't help with the land owner but...

Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Muzyczka

At 11:28 AM 9/20/2004, you wrote:

>So, what would you have done and how would you have handled this?
>
>~Amanda


I might have gone the extra distance and said this is a matter of ethical
principles for us and I would appreciate it if he could treat our beliefs
with more respect.

I think sometimes people don't GET what they are saying at all. You have
to spell it out. "Hey, idiot, you just insulted us!"


Kelly
I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/20/2004 12:22:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Genant2@... writes:

I know you will probably get lots of posts on dealing with land owner etc.

But you could show your daughter all the things that live in rotting trees,
and that even though you can't repair the tree it will be home to lots of
animals and will help to replenish the earth. You could talk about what
you
could do with the tree, branches can make neat end tables etc with a piece
of
glass on top. Recycling so the tree will be useful again. Some trees you
can
take cuttings and root them. Those types of things might help your
daughter
with the tree issue. I know it won't help with the land owner but...<<<

Yeah, Rudy Mancke is our local naturalist. He's famous for the line,
"There's more life in a dead tree than in a live one." By this he means a rotting
tree, hopefully dead of natural causes lying on the forest floor! <G>

~Kelly







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

earthmothergypsy

I also wanted to add that I felt wrong tell my dd that this fellow
was stupid and we did have a long discussion about how some people
don't understand about respecting nature and such. ~A

earthmothergypsy

We do this a lot too. Talk about and show how one act leads to
another. Like the rotting tree being a home now for other critters.
She actually went out after he left and gave the tree and offering
and talked to it. That made her feel so much better. She hates to
see a tree or anything hurt even when it is necessary for safety.
lol! You should have seen her reaction to removing a tree that was
totally rotten inside and could have fallen on our home. It was a
BIG production. <G> She is very sensitive and doesn't handle change
well at all.

Thanks for the input!
~A


--- In [email protected], Genant2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/20/2004 11:35:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> earthmothergypsy@h... writes:
>
> So, when one
> of these landowners cut down a tree thoughtlessly, our 6 yr old dd
> got upset and she told them that they hurt that tree.<<<<<
>
>
> I know you will probably get lots of posts on dealing with land
owner etc.
> But you could show your daughter all the things that live in
rotting trees,
> and that even though you can't repair the tree it will be home to
lots of
> animals and will help to replenish the earth. You could talk
about what you
> could do with the tree, branches can make neat end tables etc with
a piece of
> glass on top. Recycling so the tree will be useful again. Some
trees you can
> take cuttings and root them. Those types of things might help
your daughter
> with the tree issue. I know it won't help with the land owner
but...
>
> Pam G
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

earthmothergypsy

--- In [email protected], Kelly Muzyczka <mina@m...>
wrote:
"might have gone the extra distance and said this is a matter of
ethical principles for us and I would appreciate it if he could treat
our beliefs with more respect."

I think that is exactly what I am going to have to do to keep him
from doing this again. Thanks! ~A

earthmothergypsy

Thank you so far for all your thoughts and opinions. When you are in
the middle of things like this, it is hard to see all the
options. :) I thought all of you would be able to lend some good
ideas and help. Thank you so much!

~Amanda

J. Stauffer

<<How would you handle this?>>

I think making a confrontation with people from whom you rent may not be the way you want to go.

I think there are ways to discuss differences without turning it into a war.

I am pagan, dh is christian-lite and the kids are somewhere in between. We work hard to honor and respect the truth that is in all traditions.

I think I might have mentioned to the man that my dd was concerned because our belief system teaches the respect and honoring of all the earth, that she is our mother, and that to cause harm without true need to any of her creatures is to harm our mother. I would probably say that my dd didn't mean to be disrespectful to him (It IS his property after all) but that she wanted to protect the tree in keeping with her religion.

Then I think I would talk to my dd about how different people have many different beliefs and how hard it can be when people do things that we believe in our hearts to be wrong.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: earthmothergypsy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:28 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Grrrrrr.....what would you do?


We had an unusual situation happen yesterday and I would love your
opinions on it and what to do in the future.

Our landowners (who have a hunting cabin on the property that we
rent) were up over the weekend. The are what we commonly
call "citiots" (idiots from the city). They have no common sense or
courtisy for living in the country. We teach our children to respect
nature and the earth around up. We are studing native american
culture and are trying to "teach by example" how to respect the world
we are in. They know that nature talks if we listen. So, when one
of these landowners cut down a tree thoughtlessly, our 6 yr old dd
got upset and she told them that they hurt that tree. She also went
on to tell them that trees have feelings too and can talk.

Well, dd and I were sitting looking at a letters book-(this was
something *she* brought to me and wanted to do)- yesterday and the
landowners dropped in to let us know that they were leaving. Then
proceeded to make a point of telling dd in front of me in a
condensending way (trying to undermine me and discredit my teachings)
taht "trees do not talk". I told him that they most certainly do if
you listen. They don't speak our language, but they do speak. He
then counters "they make noise when the wind blows through them, but
they DON'T TALK". He made this point one last time before walking
away. I leaned over and whispered into dd's ear (not a good choice
here-but I was ticked) "he's stupid, but we won't tell him that". DD
just laughed and giggled about it. It didn't seem to phase her much
with what he was saying, but it really made me mad that he felt he
had the right to push *his* opinion on my family. What he did was no
different than telling a Christian family's children that Jesus
doesn't exsist. (Not to bring up religion-it is just a reference.)
It was wrong-totally wrong. Not to mention none of his business. He
had no right to question what I teach my children, not to mention the
fact that he has no right undermining my teaching, my parenting, or
anything else in my life.

I stood my ground on our beliefs in front of my dd. She saw that I
didn't waiver at all. I even stayed polite (what a task that was!)
and answered him in simple terms. My only concern now is what he
will try and do next time he is around. I don't want my kids alone
with him at all (which is challenging since we share a yard when they
are here). I am even considering, because of his disrespect for our
family, to not allow him in our house unless it is to repair
something. No more sitting down to visit and chat. I think he
stepped over the line with this and I just don't want him here
undermining us and being disrespectful to our family.

So, what would you have done and how would you have handled this?

~Amanda


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sherri-Lee Pressman

HI Amanda,

I have two thoughts on this:

One day this summer we went to the beach. We always take our old crusts of
bread to feel the seagulls. As we started one woman said "don't feed those
scavengers! They are awful!" I said, "they are birds and we are just feeding
them." Well she argued with me that they weren't birds they were scavengers
and worse than a plague on the earth. I just kept saying, "they are birds
lady, whether you like them or not doesn't change what they are." My dd was
very disturbed at the names this lady was calling them. We stopped feeding
and moved to another spot that wouldn't disturb her. So I told my dd that
this woman was wrong and ignorant (I have no problems telling my dd that
about some people) BUT that it was the right thing for us to be considerate
and move to another area, since it was a public area.

So that is how I would deal with it if it arises again in a public place.

This is different in that it is his land, not yours.

You perceived that he cut the tree down thoughtlessly, but it is his tree to
cut down and I would politely suggest that perhaps he felt your daughter was
out of line trying to tell him what to do with his trees on his property,
just as you think he was out of line to argue with your beliefs about trees
talking or not. Do you see what I mean? I think perhaps both parties stepped
on each others toes a bit, but it doesn't have to be the end of it all.

You are, of course welcome to your beliefs, and to tell him that he hurt
that tree and trying to get him to believe that they do talk when that isn't
his belief, is no more respectful than him trying to insist that they don't
talk.

So if it was me, I would have told my daughter that I agreed with her grief
for the tree, perhaps suggested a ceremony to remember it by and possibly
find some use for the wood (if he didn't use it) to make sure it wasn't in
vain, but I would be sure she knew that this was his land and he could do
what he wanted on it and that he didn't share our beliefs.

I think the fact that you call them "citiots" is a very disrespectful
message to send your daughter as well to be honest. They live a different
life with different beliefs and styles of living yes, but isn't the message
you are sending to your daughter that you are some how superior and they are
inferior or wrong for not feeling the way you do?

If you are trying to "teach by example how to respect the world we are in"
shouldn't that include people who don't live like you or think like you?

I am sure this is going to be hard to hear and you might get mad at me, I am
sorry for that, I am just trying to help you see the other side of the coin,
perhaps not my place, but you put it out there so that is my 2 cents,

Sorry in advance if I offended you,

Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com

-----Original Message-----
From: earthmothergypsy [mailto:earthmothergypsy@...]
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 8:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Grrrrrr.....what would you do?

We had an unusual situation happen yesterday and I would love your
opinions on it and what to do in the future.

Our landowners (who have a hunting cabin on the property that we
rent) were up over the weekend. The are what we commonly
call "citiots" (idiots from the city). They have no common sense or
courtisy for living in the country. We teach our children to respect
nature and the earth around up. We are studing native american
culture and are trying to "teach by example" how to respect the world
we are in. They know that nature talks if we listen. So, when one
of these landowners cut down a tree thoughtlessly, our 6 yr old dd
got upset and she told them that they hurt that tree. She also went
on to tell them that trees have feelings too and can talk.

earthmothergypsy

>I think the fact that you call them "citiots" is a very
disrespectful message to send your daughter as well to be honest.
They live a different life with different beliefs and styles of
living yes, but isn't the message you are sending to your daughter
that you are some how superior and they are inferior or wrong for not
feeling the way you do?>

Please be aware that dd did not hear anyone call them "citiots".
This is a term used in our area about the tourists and city folk that
come into the area and do damage to everything they touch. They are
loud, dirty, disrespectful to the people that live here, take what
they want because they feel it is "in the country" so no one owns it
even if it is on your property or in your yard (example-picking
fruits from trees in your yard), littering, smashing mailboxes,
destroying people's property. The people we call "citiots" feel they
are not accountable for anything they do. I am not at all saying
that everyone from the city is like this, just that we call the ones
that behave like this "citiots". Again, it is a common term here.
AND dd did not hear any of us refer to our land owners as this. I
used the term on here only.

I don't think dd confronted him at all either. She just mentioned it
in passing. The cutting of the tree wasn't really an issue, it was
the fact that he felt he had the right to tell all of us that "trees
do not talk" (in MY home) which was disrespectful of our belief. He
kept on doing this even after he was explained to about our feelings
and belief of it. He just kept on and tried to discredit me and my
teaching in front of my dd. Had he taken it up with me or dh alone,
then I wouldn't have a problem with it. He was purposely trying to
prove his point at what ever cost to my dd. It won't happen again!

I don't plan on starting any war over it either. I prefer a peaceful
life. I also expect respect and offer them the same. If he gets out
of line, then I will contact his Auntie and have her tame him down
again. :)

Thanks so much for all your thoughts. I don't get mad at other's
opinions. I wanted to hear ideas from outside looking in. :) We all
have opinions and see things different which is something I love and
should never be a cause to get angry. I think it all boils down to
respect.

Thanks again!
~A

Sherri-Lee Pressman

Hi A:)

"Please be aware that dd did not hear anyone call them "citiots".
This is a term used in our area about the tourists and city folk that
come into the area and do damage to everything they touch. They are
loud, dirty, disrespectful to the people that live here, take what
they want because they feel it is "in the country" so no one owns it
even if it is on your property or in your yard (example-picking
fruits from trees in your yard), littering, smashing mailboxes,
destroying people's property. The people we call "citiots" feel they
are not accountable for anything they do. I am not at all saying
that everyone from the city is like this, just that we call the ones
that behave like this "citiots". Again, it is a common term here.
AND dd did not hear any of us refer to our land owners as this. I
used the term on here only."

OH! Ok thanks for the clarification I did think this was a term that your
kids got to hear.


"I don't think dd confronted him at all either. She just mentioned it
in passing. The cutting of the tree wasn't really an issue, it was
the fact that he felt he had the right to tell all of us that "trees
do not talk" (in MY home) which was disrespectful of our belief. He
kept on doing this even after he was explained to about our feelings
and belief of it. He just kept on and tried to discredit me and my
teaching in front of my dd. Had he taken it up with me or dh alone,
then I wouldn't have a problem with it. He was purposely trying to
prove his point at what ever cost to my dd. It won't happen again!"

Obviously you were there and so have a clear picture of what happened. I
just responded based on what you had said. I thought you had indicated that
your daughter was very upset about the cutting of the tree? And I never
meant she "confronted" him in an aggressive sense, just as others have
mentioned, that he probably looked at her and was offended at a young child
talking to him like that. The tree and land is still his. Your home of
course is yours even rented from him and disrespect from him doesn't need to
be tolerated.

"Thanks so much for all your thoughts. I don't get mad at other's
opinions. I wanted to hear ideas from outside looking in. :) We all
have opinions and see things different which is something I love and
should never be a cause to get angry. I think it all boils down to
respect."

Glad we didn't have a misunderstanding,:)

Sherri-Lee