Barbara Perez

Hi Jill,I'm hoping we'll hear some good insightful replies for your for your
siblings fighting question, but in the meantime your comment about Love and
Logic caught my attention. Is it okay if I divert the conversation
momentarily to address that? I don't remember much at all about L&L, but you
called it "the most mainstream style of parenting" and that surprised me
since I don't necessarily remember thinking of it as that way back when I
first heard about it. Can you give some examples of ways in which L&L would
differ or be opposed to unschooling? Thanks in advance for the food for
thought!

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:46 PM, MrsD <jjd@...> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I've been reading this list for some time and this is my first time
> posting. I admit. I'm scared! I'm very new to the idea of mindful
> parenting and unschooling, but 'thanks' to you guys, I had to leave the
> Love and Logic seminar my husband and I went to this last weekend within
> the first hour. We had signed up for it in January, and then I joined
> this group and now I can't stand the most mainstream style of parenting
> out there. Thanks a LOT. ;)
>
> I have a five year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. My
> question is, how does mindful parenting deal with sibling fights at this
> age. Like, when my daughter takes a toy my son is playing with and
> when he obviously wants it back, she ignores his requests, whether he
> asks for it verbally or via screaming. Among the many responses I've
> had, many of them not ones I'm proud of...the one that has worked most
> often is asking her if he sounds like he's happy or unhappy. And then
> seeing if she can think of anything that may make him happy. But I
> don't see her wanting to stop making him upset in the first place. Can
> someone assure me that this will change at some point in her growing up
> life? They get along well a lot of the time...it's that 10% that's got
> me stumped.
>
> I wonder if others can share their experience with their kids...
>
> Thanks a lot,
>
> Jill
>
> http://www.hamletstreet.com
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jill,I'm hoping we'll hear some good insightful replies for
your for your
> siblings fighting question, but in the meantime your comment about
Love and
> Logic caught my attention. Is it okay if I divert the conversation
> momentarily to address that? I don't remember much at all about
L&L, but you
> called it "the most mainstream style of parenting" and that
surprised me
> since I don't necessarily remember thinking of it as that way back
when I
> first heard about it. Can you give some examples of ways in which
L&L would
> differ or be opposed to unschooling? Thanks in advance for the
food for
> thought!
>

wisdomalways5

sorry hit enter or tab too many times

I did some love and logic before unschooling and love and logic is
very hard to do with unschooling- here is why- they say to give the
child choices BUT only choices that you as the parent are
comfortable with- so not real choice but parent comfortable choice-
also they are big about NOT saving the child from hurt or pain- so
if they leave something out in the rain you leave it there as a
consequence

it is not really about unschooling at all

Julie



--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jill,I'm hoping we'll hear some good insightful replies for
your for your
> siblings fighting question, but in the meantime your comment about
Love and
> Logic caught my attention. Is it okay if I divert the conversation
> momentarily to address that? I don't remember much at all about
L&L, but you
> called it "the most mainstream style of parenting" and that
surprised me
> since I don't necessarily remember thinking of it as that way back
when I
> first heard about it. Can you give some examples of ways in which
L&L would
> differ or be opposed to unschooling? Thanks in advance for the
food for
> thought!
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:46 PM, MrsD <jjd@...> wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I've been reading this list for some time and this is my first
time
> > posting. I admit. I'm scared! I'm very new to the idea of mindful
> > parenting and unschooling, but 'thanks' to you guys, I had to
leave the
> > Love and Logic seminar my husband and I went to this last
weekend within
> > the first hour. We had signed up for it in January, and then I
joined
> > this group and now I can't stand the most mainstream style of
parenting
> > out there. Thanks a LOT. ;)
> >
> > I have a five year old daughter and a two and a half year old
son. My
> > question is, how does mindful parenting deal with sibling fights
at this
> > age. Like, when my daughter takes a toy my son is playing with
and
> > when he obviously wants it back, she ignores his requests,
whether he
> > asks for it verbally or via screaming. Among the many responses
I've
> > had, many of them not ones I'm proud of...the one that has
worked most
> > often is asking her if he sounds like he's happy or unhappy. And
then
> > seeing if she can think of anything that may make him happy. But
I
> > don't see her wanting to stop making him upset in the first
place. Can
> > someone assure me that this will change at some point in her
growing up
> > life? They get along well a lot of the time...it's that 10%
that's got
> > me stumped.
> >
> > I wonder if others can share their experience with their kids...
> >
> > Thanks a lot,
> >
> > Jill
> >
> > http://www.hamletstreet.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Barbara Perez

Julie,
Thanks for the reply. I can totally see how the second part doesn't mesh
with unschooling. I wouldn't intentionally let something valuable to my
child get damaged as a "consequence" for them to learn not to leave it out
in the rain - clearly it's not a "natural" consequence if I actually saw it
and could have prevented it!

On the other hand, I think the part about "only choices we're comfortable
with" would make a good topic for discussion here. Maybe it's all in
defining "parent comfort" as opposed to strong disagreement or going against
our values. I think as usual, talking about specific examples here vs. these
abstract ideas, will help, but right now I don't have the time to think of
one, so I'm hoping someone else will get the conversation going.

Thanks,
Barbara



On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 10:58 AM, wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...>
wrote:

> sorry hit enter or tab too many times
>
> I did some love and logic before unschooling and love and logic is
> very hard to do with unschooling- here is why- they say to give the
> child choices BUT only choices that you as the parent are
> comfortable with- so not real choice but parent comfortable choice-
> also they are big about NOT saving the child from hurt or pain- so
> if they leave something out in the rain you leave it there as a
> consequence
>
> it is not really about unschooling at all
>
> Julie
>
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Barbara Perez"
> <barbara.perez@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jill,I'm hoping we'll hear some good insightful replies for
> your for your
> > siblings fighting question, but in the meantime your comment about
> Love and
> > Logic caught my attention. Is it okay if I divert the conversation
> > momentarily to address that? I don't remember much at all about
> L&L, but you
> > called it "the most mainstream style of parenting" and that
> surprised me
> > since I don't necessarily remember thinking of it as that way back
> when I
> > first heard about it. Can you give some examples of ways in which
> L&L would
> > differ or be opposed to unschooling? Thanks in advance for the
> food for
> > thought!
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:46 PM, MrsD <jjd@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear All,
> > >
> > > I've been reading this list for some time and this is my first
> time
> > > posting. I admit. I'm scared! I'm very new to the idea of mindful
> > > parenting and unschooling, but 'thanks' to you guys, I had to
> leave the
> > > Love and Logic seminar my husband and I went to this last
> weekend within
> > > the first hour. We had signed up for it in January, and then I
> joined
> > > this group and now I can't stand the most mainstream style of
> parenting
> > > out there. Thanks a LOT. ;)
> > >
> > > I have a five year old daughter and a two and a half year old
> son. My
> > > question is, how does mindful parenting deal with sibling fights
> at this
> > > age. Like, when my daughter takes a toy my son is playing with
> and
> > > when he obviously wants it back, she ignores his requests,
> whether he
> > > asks for it verbally or via screaming. Among the many responses
> I've
> > > had, many of them not ones I'm proud of...the one that has
> worked most
> > > often is asking her if he sounds like he's happy or unhappy. And
> then
> > > seeing if she can think of anything that may make him happy. But
> I
> > > don't see her wanting to stop making him upset in the first
> place. Can
> > > someone assure me that this will change at some point in her
> growing up
> > > life? They get along well a lot of the time...it's that 10%
> that's got
> > > me stumped.
> > >
> > > I wonder if others can share their experience with their kids...
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot,
> > >
> > > Jill
> > >
> > > http://www.hamletstreet.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message----
From: wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...>

I did some love and logic before unschooling and love and logic is
very hard to do with unschooling- here is why- they say to give the
child choices BUT only choices that you as the parent are
comfortable with- so not real choice but parent comfortable choice-

-=-=-=-=-

Sounds a lot like Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling:

Give the child as much educational freedom as the parent is comfortable
with.

*I* think that parents need to s-t-r-e-t-c-h more.

A lot more. <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Barbara Perez

:) I appreciate that!

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 11:57 AM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> -----Original Message----
> From: wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@... <wisdom1133%40hotmail.com>>
>
> I did some love and logic before unschooling and love and logic is
> very hard to do with unschooling- here is why- they say to give the
> child choices BUT only choices that you as the parent are
> comfortable with- so not real choice but parent comfortable choice-
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Sounds a lot like Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling:
>
> Give the child as much educational freedom as the parent is comfortable
> with.
>
> *I* think that parents need to s-t-r-e-t-c-h more.
>
> A lot more. <g>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>
> On the other hand, I think the part about "only choices we're
comfortable
> with" would make a good topic for discussion here. Maybe it's all
in
> defining "parent comfort" as opposed to strong disagreement or
going against
> our values. I think as usual, talking about specific examples here
vs. these
> abstract ideas, will help, but right now I don't have the time to
think of
> one, so I'm hoping someone else will get the conversation going.
>
> Thanks,
> Barbara
>

they mean choices like you put out clothes YOU are comfortable with
and the child chooses from that- or they get two choices for dinner
and that is it they eat at the next meal- they can either come home
on time or are grounded- that sort of thing- so they can wear the
yellow or green shirt but not the dirty pink one- It is the very
begining of give your child choices but does not go far enough into
real choice

Julie

Jodi Bezzola

> Sounds a lot like Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling:
>
> Give the child as much educational freedom as the parent is comfortable
> with.
>
> *I* think that parents need to s-t-r-e-t-c- h more.
>
> A lot more. <g>
>
> ~Kelly

I completely agree. Seems to me like a huge side-effect/benefit of unschooling is for the parents to grow! It reminds me of a conversation I had with my mom awhile ago when we were struggling to get the girls to go to bed when we wanted them to go to bed. She said, "you just have to give them a choice - as in 'would you like to sleep in our bed or in your own bed?', and then be firm after they choose". So the kid picks one thing the parent has already decided is within their comfort zone and doesn't disrupt things at all in the parents' tightly controlled world. At least that's the plan. Seems to me this is just a form of coercion. So I replied to my mom, 'okay, but what if they don't want either option or they change their minds, do I really want to 'be firm' when it causes so much unhapiness, when it means a tantrum (like duh, I wouldn't have known that would happen when I set up the whole false 'choice' scenario). If I just mindlessly give them regurgitated
choices, 2 things I've already decided wouldn't disrupt my perfect control, in my opinion that is treating them like they are brain dead, like they couldn't possibly know what they need/want, which I don't for a second believe. So I'm choosing the unschooling option, which means I have to change and grow right along with them. I see this as not only honouring our children as being immensely capable and knowing, it also honours us parents as being capable of s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g far more than we ever thought we were capable of! Uncomfortable here I come :).

Jodi


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>

On the other hand, I think the part about "only choices we're
comfortable
with" would make a good topic for discussion here. Maybe it's all in
defining "parent comfort" as opposed to strong disagreement or going
against
our values. I think as usual, talking about specific examples here vs.
these
abstract ideas, will help, but right now I don't have the time to think
of
one, so I'm hoping someone else will get the conversation going.

-=-=-=-=-

As the mom of a 20 year old, I can assure you that we have had our
share of parental discomfort---from drinking and drugs to sex and
hitchhiking.

The deal is: *his* is NOT *my* life.

I canNOT decide what he chooses and what he does.

I can potentially influence him---*especially* if I have his trust
because I haven't run roughshod over him for years and years.

He truly does take my advice, and he considers many angles *because* we
have not restricted him---*because* we have let him make REAL choices
and not pretend ones (like in Love and Logic).

A lot of what he's done/wants to do has gone/goes against my personal
values and/or I strongly disagree with. It really doesn't matter. I
trust him to make the best choice for him at this minute. He doesn't
usually do things impulsively. (He has, in the past. But he's learned a
LOT from those choices and seems to make better ones all the time.)

Some of his choices, I feel sure, he feels...not necessarily
*regret*...but that he could have made better choices. That's a GOOD
thing to know---that you can CHOOSE to make better choices in the
future. That those early, maybe rash, decisions weren't failures or
mistakes---just learning-takes.

He knows that we're available at all times to bounce ideas off of, and
he seems to be struggling less with tougher decisions/choices.

It's really hard as parents NOT to want to protect our children from
every single potentially harmful thing out there. But I try not to see
that as my job. I see my role as a facilitator---someone who will help
make things happen---even things I don't agree with---IF that's what he
wants. I will try really hard to give him as many options and help him
see as many angles, but I have to be willing to let him make those
choices---and learn from them.

We really *can't* make all the decisions for kids and expect them to
get out on their own and make wise choices. It's like that frog-kissing
saying: you gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince?
You've got to make a lot of (often lousy) choices before you have the
confidence to make big, serious GOOD ones.

That's my goal: to let him, through trial and error, learn how to think
through the tough ones.

And if I choose to do all (or even a little!) of his thinking *for*
him, how will he learn? We all really do learn by DOING, not by being
told what to do!

My comfort zone is all s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d out. I've become a VERY soft
place to land. My in-laws, for example, are still "rigid rubber;" and
when their kids make "wrong" or "bad" decisions, there's no comfortable
place to land. They just get smacked around a SECOND time when the
parents find out how stupid they've been. Insult to injury---and
probably a punishment of some kind too.

That *can* make some folks try harder to make the "right" decisions
next time---to avoid punishment or to avoid disappointing their
parents. But that's not what I want my boys to do: I want them to make
better decisions next time because they learned a better way, because
they thought this one out a little more, because they don't want to
disappoint *themselves*.

*I* really shouldn't enter the equation.

But they will get my input. Because I want what's best for them. They
know that, because I've demonstrated that over and over---NOT by
protecting them from themselves, but by helping them make choices and
respecting their choices, even when I didn't agree with them. (That's
part of why they often *do* take my advice 'cause they know I won't
"pull rank" on them---that I will support them 100%, because I *have*,
in the past. It makes for a very, very trusting relationship.)

They know when I'm uncomfortable. I'm not shy expressing myself. <g>
But they also know I will do my best to help them achieve that goal no
matter what my feelings. 'Cause it's not my life.

I get to make ALL the decisions I can possibly make in my own life. I
don't get to make theirs too.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>> On the other hand, I think the part about "only choices we're
comfortable
> with" would make a good topic for discussion here. Maybe it's all
in
> defining "parent comfort" as opposed to strong disagreement or
going against
> our values.

That's a good point - and a good reason for digging down into our
principles and thinking hard about how we want to live by them.

I was really really comfortable as a "tough love" authoritarian
parent. I was good at it. I could justify the heck out of rules and
as for consistency - wow, you have never met anyone as able to
consistently apply a rule as I was. And it Worked! My stepson went
from leaving adults black and blue and destroying property to
sitting quietly in time out when told to do so. And that's where my
principles kicked in and went "Wooooooaaaahhhhh! Is This what peace
and freedom looks like?"

Oops.

So I started to s-t-r-e-t-c-h, as Kelly so nicely put it ;) I had to
stretch my level of comfort a whole heck of a lot in some respects,
but mostly I had to stretch my ability to live by my principles. To
do that, I had to get really clear about what my principles were and
start thinking about how I was going to Live them, rather than Apply
them. That took a good bit of stretching, right there, and at times
I Still have to stretch to do that. Its so much easier to snap "why
can't you two get along?" than figure out how to apply a principle
of Respectfulness, myself.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Ulrike Haupt

Oh Dears

Allow me to jump in too.

I just finished a chat with my daughter who lives in Vienna/Austria. Her Daniel is nearly four. She was 'complaining' about his sometimes being difficult to live with and making so much messes - unecessary.
She is open to a lot.

Thanks to my being a member of unschooling groups for many years I was able to very gently lead her from seing this issue as a 'Daniel has to change to fit into the adult views' problem to a 'how can I change the environment to allow Daniel to be who he is' view.

For me unschooling means respectful relating. Principles and values fit the bill of respect. Rules on the other hand are like laws, designed to make people behave in certain ways to make others/the lawmakers feel good.

Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

Ulrike,
Thanks for chiming in, but I still don't see at all how your post related to
Love and Logic, which was the topic of the thread. Or perhaps you meant to
post this on the "rules vs principles" thread?

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:

> Oh Dears
>
> Allow me to jump in too.
>
> I just finished a chat with my daughter who lives in Vienna/Austria. Her
> Daniel is nearly four. She was 'complaining' about his sometimes being
> difficult to live with and making so much messes - unecessary.
> She is open to a lot.
>
> Thanks to my being a member of unschooling groups for many years I was
> able to very gently lead her from seing this issue as a 'Daniel has to
> change to fit into the adult views' problem to a 'how can I change the
> environment to allow Daniel to be who he is' view.
>
> For me unschooling means respectful relating. Principles and values fit
> the bill of respect. Rules on the other hand are like laws, designed to make
> people behave in certain ways to make others/the lawmakers feel good.
>
> Blissings
> Ulrike
> from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ulrike Haupt

Actually Barbara, the rules and principles and love and logic are getting tangled up for me, where love and principles reign over rules and logic, if you can get my idea? :)

blissings
Ulrike
----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Perez
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics]Love and Logic WAS sibling fighting question


Ulrike,
Thanks for chiming in, but I still don't see at all how your post related to
Love and Logic, which was the topic of the thread. Or perhaps you meant to
post this on the "rules vs principles" thread?

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Ulrike Haupt <rica@...> wrote:

> Oh Dears
>
> Allow me to jump in too.
>
> I just finished a chat with my daughter who lives in Vienna/Austria. Her
> Daniel is nearly four. She was 'complaining' about his sometimes being
> difficult to live with and making so much messes - unecessary.
> She is open to a lot.
>
> Thanks to my being a member of unschooling groups for many years I was
> able to very gently lead her from seing this issue as a 'Daniel has to
> change to fit into the adult views' problem to a 'how can I change the
> environment to allow Daniel to be who he is' view.
>
> For me unschooling means respectful relating. Principles and values fit
> the bill of respect. Rules on the other hand are like laws, designed to make
> people behave in certain ways to make others/the lawmakers feel good.
>
> Blissings
> Ulrike
> from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>That's my goal: to let him, through trial and error, learn how to
think
> through the tough ones.

And, isn't it so much better for them to do that when they are still
at home where we know they are safe rather than after they leave and
who knows what could happen?

Alysia