[email protected]

Hi, could this be a question for a new topic?

--Third, if it's a child recovering from control or school, what looks
like a "bad habit" (say months of TV watching and video game
watching) can be their way of decompressing. It's more helpful to
come here and ask what people's experiences are instead of looking at
a behavior and drawing conclusions from it.--

This is where we are at this moment. I understand that my son, who's ten and has endured public school for 5 1/2 years, is decompressing. Also, up until now, we've never had TV or video games in his life, so there's the additional complication of him "making up for lost time" with electronic media.

From what I've read, it may take a year or more for him to level out, get comfy and regain his sense of curiosity about the world. I get it. My husband does not. At all. He won't read any of the dozens of books I have that concerns the subjects, he just gets mmad at me and Uriah because i'm not making him do anything. He thinks unschooling is a crock of cow poop, and this is causing much stress for me.

Typical day: wake around 9;00, breakfast, water, weed garden, plays with little sis, goes to room builds with legos for hours, walks in the woods, lunch, plays two hours daily on Disney's Pirates of the Carribean online (I set the time limit, he uses a timer to regulate playing time). Plays with neighbor kids when they "get out", reads, goes to an art class on Wednesdays, joins me in all my activities out and about town. Note the complete absense of putting pencil to paper. This is what bothers my hubby, who, is not my son's father (which, I'm sure, has a lot o do with him being so dowm on the whole idea).

Anyone have any advice? Hoe do you keep unhelpful relatives (esp. spouses!) at bay, while allowing your child the freedom to reconnect with what they love to learn? We plan on attending this year's Live and Learn Conf, and I sincerely hope Doug (hobby) goes with us.

Thanks, Laura of Kill Devil Hills, NC

---- [email protected] wrote:
> There are 20 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1.1. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> From: beensclan
> 1.2. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> From: Melissa Gray
> 1.3. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> From: kbcdlovejo@...
>
> 2.1. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: kbcdlovejo@...
> 2.2. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: Barbara Perez
> 2.3. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: Barbara Perez
> 2.4. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: kbcdlovejo@...
> 2.5. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: Jodi Bezzola
> 2.6. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
> From: kbcdlovejo@...
> 2.7. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: Joyce Fetteroll
> 2.8. Re: Limits & parenting WAS "delayed" 8-month-old
> From: kbcdlovejo@...
> 2.9. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: Jodi Bezzola
> 2.10. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> From: Pamela Sorooshian
> 2.11. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
> From: Melissa Gray
>
> 3.1. Re: Book Recommendations
> From: Barbara Perez
> 3.2. Re: Book Recommendations
> From: Nancy
> 3.3. Re: Book Recommendations
> From: Schuyler
> 3.4. Re: Book Recommendations
> From: kbcdlovejo@...
>
> 4a. Re: Need Advice on computer times
> From: Debra Rossing
>
> 5. 11 y/os
> From: Faith Void
>
>
> Messages
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 1.1. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> Posted by: "beensclan" beensclan@... beensclan
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:24 am ((PDT))
>
>
>
> >
> > I think this is a serious problem that stems from the early
> > intervention stuff from schools. The government provides funds to
> > states, counties, cities, schools based on the number of children
> > they have in their districts who need early intervention. Therefore,
> > it's beneficial to the district...to find as many children as
> > possible who need early intervention. It's difficult for new parents
> > to trust themselves and trust their children when they see, hear and
> > read all about all of this stuff everywhere.
> >
> > People are born to development normally, to survive, to thrive. We
> > don't need all this intervention and special treatment. If we did,
> > humans would not populate the planet.
> >
> > Alysia
> >
>
> I agree with what Alysia wrote here and know it for a fact. I used to
> work in the Special Needs classrooms. Around the time I began to become
> very disenchanted with the system was when one of the mums decided that
> she would like here son to try attending a mainstream Grade 2 class in
> hopes that his behaviour issues would lessen. I had to sit at a meeting
> with teachers and an administration personel as they all agreed that
> they would not let this student go mainstream. We all knew that if our
> Special Needs class-size dropped to below ten students, we would be
> affected funding-wise. The mother's request to move her son was denied.
> The mother ended up taking this to the top and eventually (this makes me
> cringe...) won the right to move her son to mainstream.
>
> After my experience with the schools and students with Special Needs I
> knew to never let my son near that system. I'm pretty sure that if my
> son entered the system, a label would be put on him. It would probably
> be some form of sensory integration problem. Something that I see his
> body working out year after year to the point now where he seems
> "normal". Now he's free to learn, live and love with every confidence
> that he is whole and wonderfully made.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 1.2. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> Posted by: "Melissa Gray" autismhelp@... multimomma
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:18 am ((PDT))
>
> Unfortunately MY experience is as a mother within the system. We're
> all thankful for it though, regardless of the enormous amount of
> healing required, because without it, we'd never be so adamantly
> certain that unschooling our severely disabled child is perfect for her.
>
> The saddest part for me is that while I was fighting fighting
> fighting for them to treat my daughter as a typical child, so many
> other parents in the autism system have given up. School is little
> more than a respite care system. They don't know that they have all
> these rights...rights that every parent gives up when you send a
> child to public school or therapy or whatever.
> Melissa
> Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
> Wife to Zane
>
> blog me at
> http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
> Find out what's going on by me at MYZIP.COM
> http://www.73071.net
>
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2008, at 5:54 AM, beensclan wrote:
> >
> >
> > After my experience with the schools and students with Special Needs I
> > knew to never let my son near that system. I'm pretty sure that if my
> > son entered the system, a label would be put on him. It would probably
> > be some form of sensory integration problem. Something that I see his
> > body working out year after year to the point now where he seems
> > "normal". Now he's free to learn, live and love with every confidence
> > that he is whole and wonderfully made.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 1.3. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:39 am ((PDT))
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melissa Gray <autismhelp@...>
>
> Unfortunately MY experience is as a mother within the system. We're
> all thankful for it though, regardless of the enormous amount of
> healing required, because without it, we'd never be so adamantly
> certain that unschooling our severely disabled child is perfect for her.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> And here is a perfect example. I've MET Melissa's "severely disabled
> child" and found her to be anything BUT. My *limited* exposure to her
> led me to believe that she was just a little quieter than the others. I
> didn't see her as disabled at all, but profoundly respected and trusted
> to be exactly Who She Is. With other parents and in school, she might
> be treated as "less than." But Melissa and Zane are so attentive of her
> (and the rest of the kids) that you don't see what she can't do but
> what *all* she CAN.
>
> I knew before I met her that she struggled with things, but had I *not*
> known that in advance, I probably wouldn't have made that connection.
>
> This is true of all the unschooling kids I've met that are a little
> (and sometimes a LOT) more work to parent. Their parents make it look
> easy. <G> You honestly wouldn't know because the children never seem to
> look or act "less than"---which is so common with schooled children.
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.1. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:24 am ((PDT))
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rabbits3arewe <rabbits3arewe@...>
>
> I am new to this list. I posted with a book recommendation that I
> think is very supportive of unschooling philosophies and asked for
> other books to read. A mom responded and expressed concerns for her
> child. I gave her a suggestion based on what we did that was
> successful. Suddenly things are snowballing.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> That's why we suggest that new members read for a week or two and read
> the archives for a while before they post.
>
> It's hard to "get the feel" of a list and its posters in just a few
> days.
>
> Anything that is posted that is counter to promoting an open, trusting,
> respectful relationship with your child will be questioned.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I have been told that what I did for my child was dangerous and that
> my kids won't trust me because I'm not going to let them binge on
> Twinkies.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I think you are misunderstanding---or putting a weird spin on it.
>
> No one said it was "dangerous." It certainly seems like an
> over-reaction. What was written was that speech therapy for an eight
> month old is drastic and unnecessary---and could potentially color your
> (and others') view of your child (as "damaged" or "faulty" or
> "defective"). I've never known of an eight month old who could speak
> yet, so why would there need to be an intervention? I know you wrote
> that there were early "signs"---but that's like saying a four month old
> is delayed in walking because he's not making some certain kind of leg
> motions or because he decided to crawl backwards for a while. Or a five
> year old is delayed in reading because she's not writing her name yet.
>
> Early intervention *can* be harmful (not dangerous). It can damage the
> relationship between parent and child. Not that an eight month old will
> know his mom ever even *did* anything about his speech! <g> But in the
> mom's mind, she thinks she "fixed" a problem. THAT can snowball!
>
> It's that way with reading: schools think that they "teach" reading
> with all their lessons and tricks and pressure, but in reality the
> child would have come to reading in just about the same time---withOUT
> all that unnecessary drilling. Patience is BIG. HUGE, but unfortunately
> an under-appreciated and under-used virtue. <g>
>
> The Twinkie thang---no one said "binge on Twinkies" but you. Forbidding
> something---even for their own good---only backfires.
>
> Better is to discuss the pros and cons and let them make decisions (AND
> accepting those choices as OK!!!). Even eating *only* Twinkies for a
> week won't kill a person or even permanently damage him. But I doubt
> that would be the choice anyone would make if given a wide choice of
> food options. Some kids seem to thrive on nothing but boxed mac &
> cheese and chicken fingers. But not forever---in a healthy home with
> lots of choices. *Eventually* he'll branch out---if his eating habits
> are accepted and he's given time to explore food in his own time.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Is this how people on this list normally treat each other?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Meaning....will things posted that are contrary to an open, respectful,
> trusting parent/child relationship be questioned? You betcha!
>
> If you are looking for a list that will support early interventions,
> I'm afraid this really won't be a good one for you. A LOT of the
> problems with schools (and in our society, in general) stem from the
> idea that we want everyone doing everything at the same rate as
> everyone else---and FASTER/SOONER is BETTER. You won't find unschoolers
> promoting that.
>
> Unschooling accepts that everyone grows and learns at different rates.
> It's not that we won't ever pursue aid, it's just that we will give a
> child more time to develop and accept that he may not be "on time"
> developmentally. We use the word "yet" a lot. <g>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.2. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> Posted by: "Barbara Perez" barbara.perez@... barbaraperez228
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:25 am ((PDT))
>
> Joyce,
> I appreciate your statements about protecting children, and about a single
> experience not being "deadly" to anyone, and especially about using specific
> examples rather than vague ones.
> So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my experience with
> children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but who had been
> through VERY different parenting before coming to me as foster children. Had
> I been able to unschool them right away (I obviously wasn't, since the state
> legally had custody, they even had to attend public school, and my hands
> were clearly tied by the agency as to what would have been considered
> appropriate parenting regarding many issues) I *may* have been able to take
> the absolutely scary but infinitely freeing plunge of providing them with
> everything they hadn't been provided in terms of safety and guidance, while
> at the same time supporting them making their own decisions on everything
> from eating to how to spend their time to every other decision in their
> lives. Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there very
> very gradually instead. But in the course of doing that, and in hindsight, I
> came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on this board
> advocate would have been in their best interest. In fact, I came to
> understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence and freedom
> as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most sensible
> option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
> pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and possibly for some
> others. After all, many children develop negative habits on their own, for
> whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not having
> discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my point about
> habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits, and healthy
> ones - do you? And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
> habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it takes more
> than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would it be so
> hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit smoking,
> overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> self-destructive behaviors that plague our society? To oversimplify (and I
> do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I believe this is
> because established habits die hard. So, back to parenting, directly related
> to protecting my child from harm, besides the short-term "who's going to die
> from this?" question, which I agree with you is useful, I believe another
> useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of habits do I want
> them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a stage where
> habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for the same
> time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating boxed macaroni
> and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or scavenging
> from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in another) will not be
> able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those specific
> examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children need the
> guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative habits, and
> leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just providing
> alternatives. Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out because I've
> heard some people on this and another board say "that just doesn't happen"
> in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not even as extreme
> cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations (not from
> unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense that were
> bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very unhealthy habits
> in terms of their basic physical needs. I've seen kids become obese at a
> young age clearly not because of some genetic problem but due to the
> availability of highly processed high calory foods in the house and nothing
> else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and nothing else.
> This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my temperament was such
> at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to munch away on
> high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I did get
> enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of physical
> activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer even though my
> mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules about mealtimes
> and limits on snacks, etc. I have seen the argument about that kind of
> "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems later in life,
> and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in theory...but
> what I see in my own life is the opposite: When I think of how hard my
> parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as an adult that
> is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy life. Is there
> anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on this board who
> can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives, not in spite
> of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME degree of
> rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
> Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm definitely not
> advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child life. I'm
> playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or nothing"
> reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced reasoning),
> which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth swing" kind of
> way -kwim?
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Apr 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> >
> > > As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better wants
> > > something that I know will be harmful to them,
> >
> > Kids want us to protect them from harm. It would be a betrayal of
> > their trust if we stood by and let them get hurt. If my husband stood
> > by while I cut my finger off with a chain saw, I'd be pretty pissed!
> >
> > The issue is what the definition of "harmful" is. Some parents draw
> > the harmful line at Twinkies and TV and "too much" computer and R-
> > rated movies and advertising and sugar and meat and more than one
> > cookie ...
> >
> > A good question to ask, not as a hand tying rule but as an aid as
> > someone is making the transition from no to yes, is, "Who's going to
> > die?"
> >
> > So, what harm are you talking about? Real life examples are more
> > useful than vagueness.
> >
> > > I think that is a terrific
> > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and that
> > > not all
> > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created equal.
> >
> > We should be discussing the world as we go along in life not grasping
> > at teachable moments. Too often "teachable moments" is a parent
> > internally saying "You're wrong. I'm right. I need you to see the
> > right way."
> >
> > If my daughter comes for a second bowl of ice cream she'd appreciate
> > me saying "We're eating in 15 minutes." Then she can use the
> > information to make a more informed choice. As part of her decision
> > making, she might ask what we're having. :-) The right answer is
> > whatever she decides, not what I think she should do. Part of living
> > together, she will have gathered the nutritional value of food but
> > even if she decides she'd rather have more ice cream than dinner,
> > it's not a forever decision where this one experience will kill her
> > or where forever after she'll decide to have ice cream instead of
> > dinner. She can use the freedom and experience to assess when it's
> > right for *her* to have something other than dinner.
> >
> > We learn best with the freedom to explore. Part of that freedom is
> > trying things out to see what happens *to us*. Part of that freedom
> > is the freedom to put up with the bad parts of something for a while
> > to get the good parts.
> >
> > If child is unhappy and feels stuck in a place better than saying no
> > to what they're doing is to expand their world so there is more to
> > choose from. Help them find something else rather than make them do
> > something else.
> >
> > But, again, without a specific example, that's only vaguely helpful.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.3. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> Posted by: "Barbara Perez" barbara.perez@... barbaraperez228
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:25 am ((PDT))
>
> Whew, an addendum to apologize for not having broken up my letany into
> paragraphs!
> It's late and I pushed "send" too soon!
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:31 AM, Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Joyce,
> > I appreciate your statements about protecting children, and about a single
> > experience not being "deadly" to anyone, and especially about using specific
> > examples rather than vague ones.
> > So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my experience with
> > children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but who had been
> > through VERY different parenting before coming to me as foster children. Had
> > I been able to unschool them right away (I obviously wasn't, since the state
> > legally had custody, they even had to attend public school, and my hands
> > were clearly tied by the agency as to what would have been considered
> > appropriate parenting regarding many issues) I *may* have been able to take
> > the absolutely scary but infinitely freeing plunge of providing them with
> > everything they hadn't been provided in terms of safety and guidance, while
> > at the same time supporting them making their own decisions on everything
> > from eating to how to spend their time to every other decision in their
> > lives. Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there very
> > very gradually instead. But in the course of doing that, and in hindsight, I
> > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on this board
> > advocate would have been in their best interest. In fact, I came to
> > understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence and freedom
> > as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most sensible
> > option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
> > pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and possibly for some
> > others. After all, many children develop negative habits on their own, for
> > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not having
> > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my point about
> > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits, and healthy
> > ones - do you? And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
> > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it takes more
> > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would it be so
> > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit smoking,
> > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society? To oversimplify (and I
> > do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I believe this is
> > because established habits die hard. So, back to parenting, directly related
> > to protecting my child from harm, besides the short-term "who's going to die
> > from this?" question, which I agree with you is useful, I believe another
> > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of habits do I want
> > them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a stage where
> > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for the same
> > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating boxed macaroni
> > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or scavenging
> > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in another) will not be
> > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those specific
> > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children need the
> > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative habits, and
> > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just providing
> > alternatives. Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out because I've
> > heard some people on this and another board say "that just doesn't happen"
> > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not even as extreme
> > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations (not from
> > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense that were
> > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very unhealthy habits
> > in terms of their basic physical needs. I've seen kids become obese at a
> > young age clearly not because of some genetic problem but due to the
> > availability of highly processed high calory foods in the house and nothing
> > else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and nothing else.
> > This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my temperament was such
> > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to munch away on
> > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I did get
> > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of physical
> > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer even though my
> > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules about mealtimes
> > and limits on snacks, etc. I have seen the argument about that kind of
> > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems later in life,
> > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in theory...but
> > what I see in my own life is the opposite: When I think of how hard my
> > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as an adult that
> > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy life. Is there
> > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on this board who
> > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives, not in spite
> > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME degree of
> > rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
> > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm definitely not
> > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child life. I'm
> > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or nothing"
> > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced reasoning),
> > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth swing" kind of
> > way -kwim?
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> > >
> > > > As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better wants
> > > > something that I know will be harmful to them,
> > >
> > > Kids want us to protect them from harm. It would be a betrayal of
> > > their trust if we stood by and let them get hurt. If my husband stood
> > > by while I cut my finger off with a chain saw, I'd be pretty pissed!
> > >
> > > The issue is what the definition of "harmful" is. Some parents draw
> > > the harmful line at Twinkies and TV and "too much" computer and R-
> > > rated movies and advertising and sugar and meat and more than one
> > > cookie ...
> > >
> > > A good question to ask, not as a hand tying rule but as an aid as
> > > someone is making the transition from no to yes, is, "Who's going to
> > > die?"
> > >
> > > So, what harm are you talking about? Real life examples are more
> > > useful than vagueness.
> > >
> > > > I think that is a terrific
> > > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and that
> > > > not all
> > > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created equal.
> > >
> > > We should be discussing the world as we go along in life not grasping
> > > at teachable moments. Too often "teachable moments" is a parent
> > > internally saying "You're wrong. I'm right. I need you to see the
> > > right way."
> > >
> > > If my daughter comes for a second bowl of ice cream she'd appreciate
> > > me saying "We're eating in 15 minutes." Then she can use the
> > > information to make a more informed choice. As part of her decision
> > > making, she might ask what we're having. :-) The right answer is
> > > whatever she decides, not what I think she should do. Part of living
> > > together, she will have gathered the nutritional value of food but
> > > even if she decides she'd rather have more ice cream than dinner,
> > > it's not a forever decision where this one experience will kill her
> > > or where forever after she'll decide to have ice cream instead of
> > > dinner. She can use the freedom and experience to assess when it's
> > > right for *her* to have something other than dinner.
> > >
> > > We learn best with the freedom to explore. Part of that freedom is
> > > trying things out to see what happens *to us*. Part of that freedom
> > > is the freedom to put up with the bad parts of something for a while
> > > to get the good parts.
> > >
> > > If child is unhappy and feels stuck in a place better than saying no
> > > to what they're doing is to expand their world so there is more to
> > > choose from. Help them find something else rather than make them do
> > > something else.
> > >
> > > But, again, without a specific example, that's only vaguely helpful.
> > >
> > > Joyce
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.4. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:21 am ((PDT))
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
>
> >Help doesn't involve deciding what and when other people need to learn
> something.<
>
> I disagree. As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better wants
> something that I know will be harmful to them, I think that is a
> terrific
> time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and that not
> all
> foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created equal.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> And how would you go about that? What things would you consider
> "harmful"? What food/activities have more value than others? How would
> you go about stopping a child from eating/doing something? How about
> when he has a car? When he's at a friend's house?
>
> When you say, "that is a prefect time for them to learn about
> moderation..."----what does that mean to you?
>
> It's easy to stop them as three year olds. It's a whole different
> matter when they're 16. How can one person decide what and when another
> person needs to learn something?
>
> -==-=-=-=-=-
>
> And no, I don't believe it's necessary for a
> good unschooler to say "yes" unquestioningly to EVERYTHING the child
> suddenly wants.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> *I* don't think *amything* should be done "unquestioningly." *I*
> question just about everything. And I encourage my boys to do the same.
>
> But I say "yes" or an equivalent to "yes" a lot.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> You can be an unschooler that presents the aspects of those
> choices that the child may not have thought about, deciding for them not
> when they'll learn it, but when they'll be exposed to a valuable fact or
> opinion that they might not have otherwise been exposed to.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> You seem to be taking a "teacher" role instead of a *partner* role.
>
> I give A LOT of advice and and expose them to A LOT of things/ideas.
> But my goal is NOT to teach a lesson or tell them what to do. It's to
> make sure they have as much info as absolutely possible, NOT make the
> decisions *for* them. I don't have that kind of control---nor do I want
> it.
>
> To give a real life current example: my 20 year old son wants to
> hitchhike. TOTALLY freaks me out---and he knows it. And I have told him
> that I will give him a gas card and make sure his car is always in
> tip-top shape. I will do whatever *I* can to make it unnecessary to
> hitchhike. He *stills* wants to do it. And I know I can't stop him. I
> just want him safe, but I cannot MAKE him. I can only give him as much
> info as possible and hope he makes good choices ---or is just lucky!
>
> Am I uncomfortable? You betcha! And there's no guarantee he ever *will*
> hitchhike. It's just a desire now. He may "outgrow" it---or decide not
> to. But he may live safely "on the road" for years.
>
> The point is: it's not an example of "top-down" decision. We work
> together. I'll support his choice---even as uncomfortable as I am with
> it. He doesn't *want* me to be uncomfortable or frightened either, so
> that weighs in his decision-making. But ultimately, it's Cameron's
> choice, and I have to be OK with that.
>
> -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Something as
> simple as a true story: "I once ate X Twinkies and then threw up, didn't
> want to see one or smell one for months!"
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> *IF* it's TRUE.
>
> And would the child be able to make that same choice? Eat "x" Twinkies?
> And what if he doesn't throw up?
>
> I ate a large cucumber salad once and threw up and didn't want to see
> or smell cucumbers for months. Does that make cucumbers bad? Does that
> make my story valuable?
>
> -=-=-=-=-==-
>
> So back to the 8 month old. If the parent decided that the play therapy
> was
> a positive thing for the reasons she explained, I don't see how it's
> "against unschooling" for her to have done so.
>
> -==-=-=-=-
>
> As soon as a parent sees her child as something that needs to be
> "fixed"---especially if it is a developmental issue---and ESPECIALLY if
> it's something that has a LARGE window of acceptable milestones, it can
> become an issue with accepting Where The Child Is Now. It's OK to be
> "behind" in some things. It's OK to be "ahead" in some things. It's OK
> to be "average." But in unschooling, we're not comparing our children
> to other kids. They are who and what and where they ARE.
>
> Popping labels on them like "delayed" can be harmful and should be
> avoided. He just IS who he IS. I can't imagine any stranger could come
> up with any kind of "speech therapy" that would be anything any
> attentive parent wouldn't employ in day to day interactions with her
> eight month old infant. Just like I can't imagine that any teacher
> could come up with any kind of "reading therapy" any attentive parent
> wouldn't employ in day to day interactions with her child.
>
> The spectrum is just *too* wide to say that "strategies" must be
> considered---much less, *used*----at such a young age.
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.5. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> Posted by: "Jodi Bezzola" jodibezzola@... jodibezzola
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:41 am ((PDT))
>
> ~~We often have to pull our fears out and scrutinize them. That's uncomfortable work for many people. It's *much* easier to go with the fear and do something "just incase". But
> this list isn't for promoting ideas to mollify fears. It's for dragging fears out kicking and screaming into the light of day ;-)~~
>
> After having been on this list for awhile, I can so relate to all you new members who come on board and start posting. I think many of us can say that when we were new here we felt our emails were being "attacked". I have come to see that this is a place where everything is questioned, discussed, agreed/disagreed with (in the light of radical unschooling), and it's not *personal*. For me the challenge came when I took what was said to be about *me* and it isn't about that, it's about supporting radical unschooling principles. I have come to appreciate this *hugely*, but it didn't happen overnight. It all triggered me because it was the *truth*. Ever heard the saying "the truth will set you free but first it'll piss you off?". That was my experience.
>
> I have massive fears that since I'm not limiting my girls' sugar intake, they will have big challenges with it like I did. I have to remind myself (sometimes hourly!) that *they are not me*. Sugar was completely restricted when I was a child, which manifested as me at 5 years of age stealing money from my parents, crossing a very busy highway, so I could get to a store that sold what I wanted, at 20 years of age as an out of control bulemic, and at 41 years of age as one who is still struggling with weight/body image and periodically obsessed with all things sugar.
>
> What a gift it would have been to have one of my parents say "yes" and let me figure out for myself what felt good for *me*, not some arbitrary rule some doctor came up with. My own internal process was completely obliterated by the overwhelming desire to have what I was told I couldn't have even one morsel of.
>
> So...inspite of all this, I *still* have fear about what my girls' experience will be, which manifests in a desire to limit them, which I already *know* doesn't work!!!
>
> Coming to embrace radical unschooling has meant a gift of freedom for my children, and extremely "uncomfortable work" for *me*.
>
> Jodi
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.6. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
> Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:43 am ((PDT))
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
>
> It all triggered me because it was the *truth*. Ever heard the
> saying "the truth will set you free but first it'll piss you off?".
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I have the bumper sticker. <G>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.7. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> Posted by: "Joyce Fetteroll" jfetteroll@... jfetteroll
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:43 pm ((PDT))
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> > Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there very
> > very gradually instead.
>
> A couple inches down, on the home page of my website, in bold and red
> so no one can miss it, is:
> > Don't drop all your parenting rules at once. Just say "Yes!" more.
> >
>
> When kids are led to believe that control = love, removing all
> control and rules can feel like "I give up. I don't care about you
> anymore."
>
> > But in the course of doing that, and in hindsight, I
> > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on this
> > board
> > advocate would have been in their best interest.
>
> But your conclusion was drawn from kids who weren't always unschooled.
>
> When someone comes to the list seeking advice about the behavior of a
> child who exhibits some kind of excessive behavior -- anger,
> overindulgence, avoidance of something healthy -- it's helpful to
> know that they were up to that point controlled. (And someone will
> ask! You can usually tell ;-)
>
> > After all, many children develop negative habits on their own, for
> > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not having
> > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my
> > point about
> > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits, and
> > healthy
> > ones - do you?
>
> Of course. The big huge question -- and the big huge difference
> between traditional approaches and mindful parenting -- is *why*?
> Traditional parenting looks at behavior and seeks a fix. Mindful
> parenting sees the behavior as a reaction to something in the child's
> life.
>
> We can't always know why, though. But it's helpful to realize that
> behavior is a reaction to *something*. It's a communication that's
> saying "Something's wrong. And I'm trying to fix it." Sometimes they
> pick the wrong method.
>
> Second, and it's a big second, "bad habits" are often reactions to
> stress. Trying to stop the child from the action they're using to
> relieve their stress can increase the stress. The focus should be on
> getting the stress out of the child's life, not the child. The focus
> should be on helping the child explore other ways to relieve stress.
> (Since we can't get rid of all stress. Life has stress. But at least
> we aren't forcing the huge stress of school on them!)
>
> Third, if it's a child recovering from control or school, what looks
> like a "bad habit" (say months of TV watching and video game
> watching) can be their way of decompressing. It's more helpful to
> come here and ask what people's experiences are instead of looking at
> a behavior and drawing conclusions from it.
>
> > And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
> > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it
> > takes more
> > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would it
> > be so
> > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit
> > smoking,
> > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society?
>
> How many of them were unschooled and mindfully parented?
>
> This is similar to the question that pops up occasionally about
> mindful parenting and saying "yes": What if your child wants to use
> drugs? Would you just buy them for him? (Asked, of course,
> sarcastically! ;-)
>
> The question assumes that all kids, regardless of parenting and
> childhood, are the same. When kids reach the teen years, unless
> you're lucky, they will want to try drugs. The only thing that keeps
> them from using drugs is strong parental control until they're old
> enough to make intelligent choices.
>
> Just isn't true! (If it were, all unschooled and mindfully parented
> kids would be drug fiends! ;-)
>
> I think a far more true statement than we are "creatures of habit" is
> that we can pick some bizarre ways to relieve stress, ways that put a
> band-aid on it, but don't get to the source of it. When I was in
> school, I watched a lot of TV after school and on weekends. The
> summer after my freshman year of college, I practically parked myself
> in front of HBO and watched movies all day. (I estimated I watched
> Monty Python and the Holy Grail 37 times that summer ;-) And I didn't
> even get it when I first started watching! I just needed to
> decompress. It *looked* like a bad habit.
>
> When people have ongoing stress that they can't (or don't believe
> they can) change, and their choice of stress relief only helps ease
> them for the evening, they're going to keep doing it. It's going to
> look like a bad habit. But it's really a reaction to stress.
>
> > I believe another
> > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of habits
> > do I want
> > them to form?"
>
> But *why* are they developing habits in the first place? Get to the
> root first.
>
> I think your assumption that we're creatures of habit is false. I
> think we're creatures in need of stress relief! ;-) So the need is to
> relieve the stress first and foremost.
>
> And that's why real examples of real kids are more useful for
> discussion. Real kids have real reasons for what they do.
>
> Some habits *are* useful. It's useful to find ways to minimize the
> yuckiness of teeth brushing until teeth brushing becomes a habit,
> until the child can do it automatically and can tune out the
> annoyance of it.
>
> > because children have the luxury of being at a stage where
> > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for the
> > same
> > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating boxed
> > macaroni
> > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
> > scavenging
> > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in another)
> > will not be
> > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those specific
> > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children need the
> > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative habits, and
> > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just providing
> > alternatives.
>
> But they weren't always unschooled, always mindfully parented kids,
> were they?
>
> Yes, the process *is* different for kids recovering from control and
> poor home lives.
>
> Almost always, within someone's question, there are clues (even if
> they don't come out and say it), that the child is recovering from
> control or some kind of abuse. The child's behavior is often a tip
> off. Or the way the poster phrases their problem. The advice will be
> different for them than for someone who has always unschooled.
>
> Without those clues, the best advice for *this* list is to help
> parents give their children trust and freedom.
>
> > Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out because I've
> > heard some people on this and another board say "that just doesn't
> > happen"
>
> It doesn't happen with always unschooled kids who trust their parents
> are there to help them.
>
> If parenting made no difference in how a child reacts to the world
> and the choices they make, then we should all just control them from
> the start. Make them seen and not heard. It would be a lot more
> convenient.
>
> LIfe experience, how their treated, whether they can trust that
> someone cares enough to spend time on helping them get what's
> important to them *does* make a difference in how children behave.
> And always unschooled, mindfully parented child is way less unlikely
> to use drugs, still be sitting on their parents' couch at 25 playing
> video games and all the other things parents fear that "indulgence"
> causes.
>
> > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not even
> > as extreme
> > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations (not from
> > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense that were
> > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very
> > unhealthy habits
>
> And your conclusion is that they developed bad habits because they
> didn't have help stopping them.
>
> My conclusion is that they developed bad habits because they didn't
> have someone they trusted to help them get what they wanted, or had
> someone maintaining the stress in their lives instead of stopping it
> or helping them find useful ways to relieve it.
>
> Since we have a lot of parents here who have raised children without
> controlling, without analyzing their kids for bad habits -- but
> watching for stress to either relieve the stress or help them find
> ways to deal with stress -- my theory more closely resembles the
> lives of unschooled kids than yours does.
>
> > while my temperament was such
> > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to
> > munch away on
> > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I did get
> > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of physical
> > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer even
> > though my
> > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules about
> > mealtimes
> > and limits on snacks, etc.
>
> A big important point is that 1) there's no way of knowing what you
> would have done and 2) you were schooled and your behavior was warped
> by recovery from the stress of school.
>
> I watched a lot of TV (as I said) while in school and while working.
> Now without the stress of school and work, I watch little.
>
> You *can't* extrapolate from your stressed behavior to what you would
> have done if given freedom. That's probably one of the hardest things
> for people to imagine as they're trying to get a handle on
> unschooling and mindful parenting. They only know the reactions of
> people who grew up as schooled stressed children. They *think*
> they're familiar with the spectrum of people's behavior, but what
> they really know is the behavior of people who are schooled and
> stressed. It *does* make a difference. A huge difference.
>
> From unschoolers experience with kids raised without the stress of
> school, kids behavior is *very* different. They *don't* make the same
> choices as kids in school and kids who are conventionally parented.
> They don't have the same stresses those kids do. They have support
> for the stresses that are a natural part of life.
>
> > I have seen the argument about that kind of
> > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems later
> > in life,
>
> WIth unschooled kids? With kids who have been given freedom and
> parenting mindfully?
>
> If the parenting makes no difference then everyone here should stop
> parenting mindfully because it's a lot more difficult -- at least in
> the short run -- to be working with kids rather than just handing
> down our decision.
>
> > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
> > theory...but
> > what I see in my own life is the opposite:
>
> But you weren't unschooled. You weren't mindfully parenting.
>
> > When I think of how hard my
> > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as an
> > adult that
> > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy life.
>
> And as a child?
>
> You *can't* know what decisions you'd be making had you been parented
> differently. You can only guess. You can only guess based on nothing
> but experience with people who have *not* been parented mindfully and
> not been unschooled. You have no experience with hundreds of
> mindfully parented unschoolers. I'm not saying that in a mean way.
> I'm just saying there's a reason a control group in an experiment is
> important. Without a control group -- in this case a group of people
> without school in their lives -- no one can know what behavior is
> natural to kids and what behavior is natural to *schooled* and
> *controlled* kids.
>
> Unschoolers *do* know. We know the difference between our kids
> behavior and choices and how they view the world and the behavior of
> ourselves, the kids we grew up with, the adults we know. We can see
> the difference between the friends that are schooled and the
> unschooled friends that are parented mindfully.
>
> > Is there
> > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on this
> > board who
> > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives, not
> > in spite
> > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME
> > degree of
> > rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
>
> Yes. I can even say I turned out okay because I went to school! I can
> ignore the bad parts (as I learned to do in school because I couldn't
> stop them) and appreciate the good parts. I probably wouldn't have
> gone into engineering had I been homeschooled. (Though I can't know,
> of course.) And I appreciate the education I got. I'm a really good
> programmer and I might not have found that out because what I did in
> my free time was draw. (But I can't really know what I would have done.)
>
> But I *do* know that control *can* damage kids and trust doesn't.
> While I turned out fine and like the person I am, and I probably
> wouldn't be the passionate advocate for unschooling and mindful
> parenting that I am had I grown up with them, I don't want to take
> the chance with methods with my daughter that can turn out horribly
> wrong. I've met oodles at unschooling conferences. And even if they
> haven't all be unschooled their whole lives, as a group they're a lot
> more pleasant than a similar group of schooled kids. When the parents
> are away, the kids don't go wild. They behave just as they do around
> their parents :-) When they aren't controlled, there's no reason to
> go wild.
>
> > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm definitely not
> > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child life. I'm
> > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or nothing"
> > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced reasoning),
> > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth swing"
> > kind of
> > way -kwim?
>
> Perhaps. I think there is a perception of unschoolers here advising
> "let it all go forever and ever" because posters are writing in with
> problems created by control. The obvious advice is "Stop
> controlling." If someone has created problems by controlling food,
> the obvious answer is "Stop controlling what they eat." And it really
> is the answer for now. Once the parents get by the need to control,
> *then* they can see what helping kids looks like. But while they're
> still in the thrall of control, control feels like helping kids. And
> the *kids* still feel the control.
>
> If you look beyond the initial advice to let control go, you'll see
> people offering advice on how to help kids help themselves. But the
> initial advice is "Stop controlling."
>
> Joyce
>
>
> Messages in this topic (44)
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2.8. Re: Limits & parenting WAS "delayed" 8-month-old
> Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:43 pm ((PDT))
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
>
> So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my experience with
> children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but who had
> been
> through VERY different parenting before coming to me as foster children.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> It's not impossible, but it does color the situation. Several moms here
> have adopted children or taken in fosters---or have even completely
> DROPPED their old parenting styles and changed how they approach their
> children--some all at once and some gradually (which is what most of us
> here recommend).
>
> But children who have been damaged by bad parenting---or NO
> parenting---start at a different spot. Same with *parents* who have
> little to no parenting skills modeled *for* them. Trust and respect
> should still be given though! Maybe even moreso!
>
> Nevertheless, we assume *here* that the children are average kids with
> no major "issues." If your child (or his history) is waaaay outside the
> norm, I would assume you would act accordingly. BUT...I think it's
> important to see the wide spectrum of "normal."
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there very
> very gradually instead. But in the course of doing that, and in
> hindsight, I
> came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on this
> board
> advocate would have been in their best interest.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> What we suggest is to say "yes" more.
>
> The "radical" part is simply not being arbitrary. It ain't that hard.
>
> *Before* blurting out the impulsive "no"---stop a minute and ask
> *yourself*, "Why NOT?" If there's a valid reason that canNOT be gotten
> around, by all means say no. But if it's something that can be
> considered and tweaked and made a reality, why *wouldn't* you do it?
> What's stopping you from saying yes?
>
> That "radical" part is questioning your own self as to why you
> automatically and arbitrarily say no. *Many* parents say no as a matter
> of course. They have the power, damn it; and they're going to use it.
>
> -=-=-=-=-==-
>
> In fact, I came to
> understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence and
> freedom
> as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most sensible
> option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
> pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and possibly for
> some
> others.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Ideally, all independence and freedom are gradual and
> "ability-dependent." Yet how many parents *push* their kids to BE
> "independent" before they're ready?
>
> That's *why* we don't throw eight year olds out in their own
> apartments. Not that I don't know a few eight year olds who could
> probably handle it! <G> But I also know some 25 year olds who still
> struggle with it. We all need to come to it gradually and as we are
> able. That's why we have parents. But that doesn't mean my job as a
> parent is to make their decisions *for* them. It means that I need to
> help them along and be their safety net and lifeline when their
> decisions aren't the best.
>
> Making their decisions *for* them only hinders their decision-making
> abilities. They (WE!) really *do* need to make a LOT of smaller
> decisions before we start making really, really big ones. And we need
> to make a few WRONG decisions. And better wrong SMALL decisions than
> wrong BIG decisions!
>
> Twinkies just don't qualify as big decisions. <G>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> And that brings me to my point about
> habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits, and
> healthy
> ones - do you?
>
> -=-==-
>
> Sure.
>
> -==-=-=-=-=-
>
> And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
> habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it takes
> more
> than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would it be
> so
> hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit smoking,
> overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> self-destructive behaviors that plague our society?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I think the ONLY thing that can change anyone or anything is freedom
> and information.
>
> What else can? Seriously?
>
> You're here at UnschoolingBasics, I assume, in order to be a better
> parent and to help your child/ren keep/find a life-long love of
> learning. If you have the tools and the freedom to make that choice,
> exactly what would stop you from unschooling/peaceful parenting? What?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> To oversimplify (and I
> do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I believe
> this is
> because established habits die hard.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Maybe. But if you want to change/break those habits, what will make
> that happen? Your mom?
>
> The ONLY person who can make that change is YOU. And it helps (a lot)
> to have information/knowledge and freedom.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I believe another
> useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of habits do I
> want
> them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a stage
> where
> habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for the same
> time.
>
> -=-=-=-=-==-
>
> YOU don't get to make that decision *for* them.
>
> You may think you do. And you may have that power for a while.
>
> That power is ephemeral. Don't get used to it.
>
> You *do*, however, have the power of modeling. That's an amazing tool.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating boxed macaroni
> and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or scavenging
> from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in another) will
> not be
> able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those specific
> examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children need the
> guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative habits, and
> leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just providing
> alternatives.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Providing alternatives and modeling. Discussion and more modeling.
>
> I, personally, would keep plenty of boxed mac & cheese in the
> cupboard---and maybe prepare a box for every meal. But there would
> always be other stuff to choose from. Boxed mac & cheese may be
> comforting to that child---I have no way of knowing what's inside his
> head. But I *can* make homemade mac & cheese and offer that as well.
> Try other brands too---there's an organic/health foodie one that many
> children I know like.
>
> There are just so many options other than "leading him away" from what
> he wants. If he wants it, there may be a very, very real need there.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out because I've
> heard some people on this and another board say "that just doesn't
> happen"
> in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not even as
> extreme
> cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations (not from
> unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense that were
> bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very unhealthy
> habits
> in terms of their basic physical needs.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> "That doesn't happen" with a child in a caring, loving home where he's
> respected and trusted. With lots of patience and generosity and
> kindness.
>
> Needy children (and adults) don't come from loving, accepting homes.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I've seen kids become obese at a
> young age clearly not because of some genetic problem but due to the
> availability of highly processed high calory foods in the house and
> nothing
> else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and nothing
> else.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Right---but not in an unschooling home, right? Not in a home where all
> food is treated as food and where good, wholesome, nutritious food is
> prepared on a regular basis. And not in a home where one or both
> parents are physically active. Not in a home where each person's body
> is treated as special.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my temperament was
> such
> at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to munch
> away on
> high-carb f<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Charlene

It sounds like your husband knows my husband! My kids have beeen home
for 2 years and I've only been "unschooling" since the fall (before
that I fought with them a lot over doing their curriculum). He
actually sat me down this weekend to tell me it's not working for
HIM. He wants me to play teacher and to see workbook material as
proof of learning. I say there is proof of learning if he just opened
his eyes and looked. He called this thing we do "pooey foo".
I did tell him "too bad", I'm not doing it for him but for the kids.
He has never done any reading about homeschooling and he has never
participated in the kids learning (not even reading a story to them).
It does cause stress though. He thinks I'm being controlling about it
(and won't see his point of view). I think I'm just being very
PASSIONATE about it. I'd love to hear what others say.

Charlene


--- In [email protected], <lauramae117@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, could this be a question for a new topic?
>
> --Third, if it's a child recovering from control or school, what
looks
> like a "bad habit" (say months of TV watching and video game
> watching) can be their way of decompressing. It's more helpful to
> come here and ask what people's experiences are instead of looking
at
> a behavior and drawing conclusions from it.--
>
> This is where we are at this moment. I understand that my son,
who's ten and has endured public school for 5 1/2 years, is
decompressing. Also, up until now, we've never had TV or video games
in his life, so there's the additional complication of him "making up
for lost time" with electronic media.
>
> From what I've read, it may take a year or more for him to level
out, get comfy and regain his sense of curiosity about the world. I
get it. My husband does not. At all. He won't read any of the
dozens of books I have that concerns the subjects, he just gets mmad
at me and Uriah because i'm not making him do anything. He thinks
unschooling is a crock of cow poop, and this is causing much stress
for me.
>
> Typical day: wake around 9;00, breakfast, water, weed garden,
plays with little sis, goes to room builds with legos for hours,
walks in the woods, lunch, plays two hours daily on Disney's Pirates
of the Carribean online (I set the time limit, he uses a timer to
regulate playing time). Plays with neighbor kids when they "get
out", reads, goes to an art class on Wednesdays, joins me in all my
activities out and about town. Note the complete absense of putting
pencil to paper. This is what bothers my hubby, who, is not my son's
father (which, I'm sure, has a lot o do with him being so dowm on the
whole idea).
>
> Anyone have any advice? Hoe do you keep unhelpful relatives (esp.
spouses!) at bay, while allowing your child the freedom to reconnect
with what they love to learn? We plan on attending this year's Live
and Learn Conf, and I sincerely hope Doug (hobby) goes with us.
>
> Thanks, Laura of Kill Devil Hills, NC
>
> ---- [email protected] wrote:
> > There are 20 messages in this issue.
> >
> > Topics in this digest:
> >
> > 1.1. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> > From: beensclan
> > 1.2. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> > From: Melissa Gray
> > 1.3. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> > From: kbcdlovejo@...
> >
> > 2.1. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: kbcdlovejo@...
> > 2.2. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: Barbara Perez
> > 2.3. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: Barbara Perez
> > 2.4. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: kbcdlovejo@...
> > 2.5. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: Jodi Bezzola
> > 2.6. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
> > From: kbcdlovejo@...
> > 2.7. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: Joyce Fetteroll
> > 2.8. Re: Limits & parenting WAS "delayed" 8-month-old
> > From: kbcdlovejo@...
> > 2.9. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: Jodi Bezzola
> > 2.10. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > From: Pamela Sorooshian
> > 2.11. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
> > From: Melissa Gray
> >
> > 3.1. Re: Book Recommendations
> > From: Barbara Perez
> > 3.2. Re: Book Recommendations
> > From: Nancy
> > 3.3. Re: Book Recommendations
> > From: Schuyler
> > 3.4. Re: Book Recommendations
> > From: kbcdlovejo@...
> >
> > 4a. Re: Need Advice on computer times
> > From: Debra Rossing
> >
> > 5. 11 y/os
> > From: Faith Void
> >
> >
> > Messages
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 1.1. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> > Posted by: "beensclan" beensclan@... beensclan
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:24 am ((PDT))
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I think this is a serious problem that stems from the early
> > > intervention stuff from schools. The government provides funds
to
> > > states, counties, cities, schools based on the number of
children
> > > they have in their districts who need early intervention.
Therefore,
> > > it's beneficial to the district...to find as many children as
> > > possible who need early intervention. It's difficult for new
parents
> > > to trust themselves and trust their children when they see,
hear and
> > > read all about all of this stuff everywhere.
> > >
> > > People are born to development normally, to survive, to thrive.
We
> > > don't need all this intervention and special treatment. If we
did,
> > > humans would not populate the planet.
> > >
> > > Alysia
> > >
> >
> > I agree with what Alysia wrote here and know it for a fact. I
used to
> > work in the Special Needs classrooms. Around the time I began to
become
> > very disenchanted with the system was when one of the mums
decided that
> > she would like here son to try attending a mainstream Grade 2
class in
> > hopes that his behaviour issues would lessen. I had to sit at a
meeting
> > with teachers and an administration personel as they all agreed
that
> > they would not let this student go mainstream. We all knew that
if our
> > Special Needs class-size dropped to below ten students, we would
be
> > affected funding-wise. The mother's request to move her son was
denied.
> > The mother ended up taking this to the top and eventually (this
makes me
> > cringe...) won the right to move her son to mainstream.
> >
> > After my experience with the schools and students with Special
Needs I
> > knew to never let my son near that system. I'm pretty sure that
if my
> > son entered the system, a label would be put on him. It would
probably
> > be some form of sensory integration problem. Something that I
see his
> > body working out year after year to the point now where he seems
> > "normal". Now he's free to learn, live and love with every
confidence
> > that he is whole and wonderfully made.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 1.2. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> > Posted by: "Melissa Gray" autismhelp@... multimomma
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:18 am ((PDT))
> >
> > Unfortunately MY experience is as a mother within the system.
We're
> > all thankful for it though, regardless of the enormous amount of
> > healing required, because without it, we'd never be so adamantly
> > certain that unschooling our severely disabled child is perfect
for her.
> >
> > The saddest part for me is that while I was fighting fighting
> > fighting for them to treat my daughter as a typical child, so
many
> > other parents in the autism system have given up. School is
little
> > more than a respite care system. They don't know that they have
all
> > these rights...rights that every parent gives up when you send a
> > child to public school or therapy or whatever.
> > Melissa
> > Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
> > Wife to Zane
> >
> > blog me at
> > http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
> > Find out what's going on by me at MYZIP.COM
> > http://www.73071.net
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 21, 2008, at 5:54 AM, beensclan wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > After my experience with the schools and students with Special
Needs I
> > > knew to never let my son near that system. I'm pretty sure that
if my
> > > son entered the system, a label would be put on him. It would
probably
> > > be some form of sensory integration problem. Something that I
see his
> > > body working out year after year to the point now where he seems
> > > "normal". Now he's free to learn, live and love with every
confidence
> > > that he is whole and wonderfully made.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 1.3. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
> > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:39 am ((PDT))
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Melissa Gray <autismhelp@...>
> >
> > Unfortunately MY experience is as a mother within the system.
We're
> > all thankful for it though, regardless of the enormous amount of
> > healing required, because without it, we'd never be so adamantly
> > certain that unschooling our severely disabled child is perfect
for her.
> >
> > -=-=-=-
> >
> > And here is a perfect example. I've MET Melissa's "severely
disabled
> > child" and found her to be anything BUT. My *limited* exposure to
her
> > led me to believe that she was just a little quieter than the
others. I
> > didn't see her as disabled at all, but profoundly respected and
trusted
> > to be exactly Who She Is. With other parents and in school, she
might
> > be treated as "less than." But Melissa and Zane are so attentive
of her
> > (and the rest of the kids) that you don't see what she can't do
but
> > what *all* she CAN.
> >
> > I knew before I met her that she struggled with things, but had I
*not*
> > known that in advance, I probably wouldn't have made that
connection.
> >
> > This is true of all the unschooling kids I've met that are a
little
> > (and sometimes a LOT) more work to parent. Their parents make it
look
> > easy. <G> You honestly wouldn't know because the children never
seem to
> > look or act "less than"---which is so common with schooled
children.
> >
> >
> >
> > ~Kelly
> >
> > Kelly Lovejoy
> > Conference Coordinator
> > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.1. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:24 am ((PDT))
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rabbits3arewe <rabbits3arewe@...>
> >
> > I am new to this list. I posted with a book recommendation that I
> > think is very supportive of unschooling philosophies and asked for
> > other books to read. A mom responded and expressed concerns for
her
> > child. I gave her a suggestion based on what we did that was
> > successful. Suddenly things are snowballing.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > That's why we suggest that new members read for a week or two and
read
> > the archives for a while before they post.
> >
> > It's hard to "get the feel" of a list and its posters in just a
few
> > days.
> >
> > Anything that is posted that is counter to promoting an open,
trusting,
> > respectful relationship with your child will be questioned.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > I have been told that what I did for my child was dangerous and
that
> > my kids won't trust me because I'm not going to let them binge on
> > Twinkies.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > I think you are misunderstanding---or putting a weird spin on it.
> >
> > No one said it was "dangerous." It certainly seems like an
> > over-reaction. What was written was that speech therapy for an
eight
> > month old is drastic and unnecessary---and could potentially
color your
> > (and others') view of your child (as "damaged" or "faulty" or
> > "defective"). I've never known of an eight month old who could
speak
> > yet, so why would there need to be an intervention? I know you
wrote
> > that there were early "signs"---but that's like saying a four
month old
> > is delayed in walking because he's not making some certain kind
of leg
> > motions or because he decided to crawl backwards for a while. Or
a five
> > year old is delayed in reading because she's not writing her name
yet.
> >
> > Early intervention *can* be harmful (not dangerous). It can
damage the
> > relationship between parent and child. Not that an eight month
old will
> > know his mom ever even *did* anything about his speech! <g> But
in the
> > mom's mind, she thinks she "fixed" a problem. THAT can snowball!
> >
> > It's that way with reading: schools think that they "teach"
reading
> > with all their lessons and tricks and pressure, but in reality
the
> > child would have come to reading in just about the same time---
withOUT
> > all that unnecessary drilling. Patience is BIG. HUGE, but
unfortunately
> > an under-appreciated and under-used virtue. <g>
> >
> > The Twinkie thang---no one said "binge on Twinkies" but you.
Forbidding
> > something---even for their own good---only backfires.
> >
> > Better is to discuss the pros and cons and let them make
decisions (AND
> > accepting those choices as OK!!!). Even eating *only* Twinkies
for a
> > week won't kill a person or even permanently damage him. But I
doubt
> > that would be the choice anyone would make if given a wide choice
of
> > food options. Some kids seem to thrive on nothing but boxed mac &
> > cheese and chicken fingers. But not forever---in a healthy home
with
> > lots of choices. *Eventually* he'll branch out---if his eating
habits
> > are accepted and he's given time to explore food in his own time.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Is this how people on this list normally treat each other?
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Meaning....will things posted that are contrary to an open,
respectful,
> > trusting parent/child relationship be questioned? You betcha!
> >
> > If you are looking for a list that will support early
interventions,
> > I'm afraid this really won't be a good one for you. A LOT of the
> > problems with schools (and in our society, in general) stem from
the
> > idea that we want everyone doing everything at the same rate as
> > everyone else---and FASTER/SOONER is BETTER. You won't find
unschoolers
> > promoting that.
> >
> > Unschooling accepts that everyone grows and learns at different
rates.
> > It's not that we won't ever pursue aid, it's just that we will
give a
> > child more time to develop and accept that he may not be "on
time"
> > developmentally. We use the word "yet" a lot. <g>
> >
> > ~Kelly
> >
> > Kelly Lovejoy
> > Conference Coordinator
> > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.2. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > Posted by: "Barbara Perez" barbara.perez@... barbaraperez228
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:25 am ((PDT))
> >
> > Joyce,
> > I appreciate your statements about protecting children, and about
a single
> > experience not being "deadly" to anyone, and especially about
using specific
> > examples rather than vague ones.
> > So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my experience
with
> > children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but who
had been
> > through VERY different parenting before coming to me as foster
children. Had
> > I been able to unschool them right away (I obviously wasn't,
since the state
> > legally had custody, they even had to attend public school, and
my hands
> > were clearly tied by the agency as to what would have been
considered
> > appropriate parenting regarding many issues) I *may* have been
able to take
> > the absolutely scary but infinitely freeing plunge of providing
them with
> > everything they hadn't been provided in terms of safety and
guidance, while
> > at the same time supporting them making their own decisions on
everything
> > from eating to how to spend their time to every other decision in
their
> > lives. Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get
there very
> > very gradually instead. But in the course of doing that, and in
hindsight, I
> > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on
this board
> > advocate would have been in their best interest. In fact, I came
to
> > understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence
and freedom
> > as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most
sensible
> > option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
> > pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and possibly
for some
> > others. After all, many children develop negative habits on their
own, for
> > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not
having
> > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my
point about
> > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
and healthy
> > ones - do you? And I also believe that we as humans can be
creatures of
> > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it
takes more
> > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would
it be so
> > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit
smoking,
> > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society? To
oversimplify (and I
> > do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I
believe this is
> > because established habits die hard. So, back to parenting,
directly related
> > to protecting my child from harm, besides the short-term "who's
going to die
> > from this?" question, which I agree with you is useful, I believe
another
> > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of habits
do I want
> > them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a
stage where
> > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for
the same
> > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating boxed
macaroni
> > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
scavenging
> > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in another)
will not be
> > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those
specific
> > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children
need the
> > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative
habits, and
> > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just
providing
> > alternatives. Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out
because I've
> > heard some people on this and another board say "that just
doesn't happen"
> > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not even
as extreme
> > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations (not
from
> > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense that
were
> > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very
unhealthy habits
> > in terms of their basic physical needs. I've seen kids become
obese at a
> > young age clearly not because of some genetic problem but due to
the
> > availability of highly processed high calory foods in the house
and nothing
> > else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and
nothing else.
> > This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my
temperament was such
> > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to
munch away on
> > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I did
get
> > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of
physical
> > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer even
though my
> > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules about
mealtimes
> > and limits on snacks, etc. I have seen the argument about that
kind of
> > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems
later in life,
> > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
theory...but
> > what I see in my own life is the opposite: When I think of how
hard my
> > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as an
adult that
> > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy life.
Is there
> > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on this
board who
> > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives,
not in spite
> > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME
degree of
> > rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
> > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm definitely
not
> > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child life.
I'm
> > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or
nothing"
> > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced
reasoning),
> > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth swing"
kind of
> > way -kwim?
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> > >
> > > > As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better wants
> > > > something that I know will be harmful to them,
> > >
> > > Kids want us to protect them from harm. It would be a betrayal
of
> > > their trust if we stood by and let them get hurt. If my husband
stood
> > > by while I cut my finger off with a chain saw, I'd be pretty
pissed!
> > >
> > > The issue is what the definition of "harmful" is. Some parents
draw
> > > the harmful line at Twinkies and TV and "too much" computer and
R-
> > > rated movies and advertising and sugar and meat and more than
one
> > > cookie ...
> > >
> > > A good question to ask, not as a hand tying rule but as an aid
as
> > > someone is making the transition from no to yes, is, "Who's
going to
> > > die?"
> > >
> > > So, what harm are you talking about? Real life examples are more
> > > useful than vagueness.
> > >
> > > > I think that is a terrific
> > > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and
that
> > > > not all
> > > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created equal.
> > >
> > > We should be discussing the world as we go along in life not
grasping
> > > at teachable moments. Too often "teachable moments" is a parent
> > > internally saying "You're wrong. I'm right. I need you to see
the
> > > right way."
> > >
> > > If my daughter comes for a second bowl of ice cream she'd
appreciate
> > > me saying "We're eating in 15 minutes." Then she can use the
> > > information to make a more informed choice. As part of her
decision
> > > making, she might ask what we're having. :-) The right answer is
> > > whatever she decides, not what I think she should do. Part of
living
> > > together, she will have gathered the nutritional value of food
but
> > > even if she decides she'd rather have more ice cream than
dinner,
> > > it's not a forever decision where this one experience will kill
her
> > > or where forever after she'll decide to have ice cream instead
of
> > > dinner. She can use the freedom and experience to assess when
it's
> > > right for *her* to have something other than dinner.
> > >
> > > We learn best with the freedom to explore. Part of that freedom
is
> > > trying things out to see what happens *to us*. Part of that
freedom
> > > is the freedom to put up with the bad parts of something for a
while
> > > to get the good parts.
> > >
> > > If child is unhappy and feels stuck in a place better than
saying no
> > > to what they're doing is to expand their world so there is more
to
> > > choose from. Help them find something else rather than make
them do
> > > something else.
> > >
> > > But, again, without a specific example, that's only vaguely
helpful.
> > >
> > > Joyce
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.3. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > Posted by: "Barbara Perez" barbara.perez@... barbaraperez228
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:25 am ((PDT))
> >
> > Whew, an addendum to apologize for not having broken up my letany
into
> > paragraphs!
> > It's late and I pushed "send" too soon!
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:31 AM, Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Joyce,
> > > I appreciate your statements about protecting children, and
about a single
> > > experience not being "deadly" to anyone, and especially about
using specific
> > > examples rather than vague ones.
> > > So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my
experience with
> > > children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but
who had been
> > > through VERY different parenting before coming to me as foster
children. Had
> > > I been able to unschool them right away (I obviously wasn't,
since the state
> > > legally had custody, they even had to attend public school, and
my hands
> > > were clearly tied by the agency as to what would have been
considered
> > > appropriate parenting regarding many issues) I *may* have been
able to take
> > > the absolutely scary but infinitely freeing plunge of providing
them with
> > > everything they hadn't been provided in terms of safety and
guidance, while
> > > at the same time supporting them making their own decisions on
everything
> > > from eating to how to spend their time to every other decision
in their
> > > lives. Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get
there very
> > > very gradually instead. But in the course of doing that, and in
hindsight, I
> > > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on
this board
> > > advocate would have been in their best interest. In fact, I
came to
> > > understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence
and freedom
> > > as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most
sensible
> > > option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
> > > pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and
possibly for some
> > > others. After all, many children develop negative habits on
their own, for
> > > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not
having
> > > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my
point about
> > > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
and healthy
> > > ones - do you? And I also believe that we as humans can be
creatures of
> > > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established,
it takes more
> > > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why
would it be so
> > > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit
smoking,
> > > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> > > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society? To
oversimplify (and I
> > > do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I
believe this is
> > > because established habits die hard. So, back to parenting,
directly related
> > > to protecting my child from harm, besides the short-term "who's
going to die
> > > from this?" question, which I agree with you is useful, I
believe another
> > > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of
habits do I want
> > > them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a
stage where
> > > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for
the same
> > > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating
boxed macaroni
> > > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
scavenging
> > > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in
another) will not be
> > > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those
specific
> > > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children
need the
> > > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative
habits, and
> > > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just
providing
> > > alternatives. Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out
because I've
> > > heard some people on this and another board say "that just
doesn't happen"
> > > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not
even as extreme
> > > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations
(not from
> > > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense
that were
> > > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very
unhealthy habits
> > > in terms of their basic physical needs. I've seen kids become
obese at a
> > > young age clearly not because of some genetic problem but due
to the
> > > availability of highly processed high calory foods in the house
and nothing
> > > else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and
nothing else.
> > > This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my
temperament was such
> > > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to
munch away on
> > > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I
did get
> > > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of
physical
> > > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer
even though my
> > > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules
about mealtimes
> > > and limits on snacks, etc. I have seen the argument about that
kind of
> > > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems
later in life,
> > > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
theory...but
> > > what I see in my own life is the opposite: When I think of how
hard my
> > > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as
an adult that
> > > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy
life. Is there
> > > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on
this board who
> > > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives,
not in spite
> > > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME
degree of
> > > rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
> > > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm
definitely not
> > > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child
life. I'm
> > > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or
nothing"
> > > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced
reasoning),
> > > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth
swing" kind of
> > > way -kwim?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better wants
> > > > > something that I know will be harmful to them,
> > > >
> > > > Kids want us to protect them from harm. It would be a
betrayal of
> > > > their trust if we stood by and let them get hurt. If my
husband stood
> > > > by while I cut my finger off with a chain saw, I'd be pretty
pissed!
> > > >
> > > > The issue is what the definition of "harmful" is. Some
parents draw
> > > > the harmful line at Twinkies and TV and "too much" computer
and R-
> > > > rated movies and advertising and sugar and meat and more than
one
> > > > cookie ...
> > > >
> > > > A good question to ask, not as a hand tying rule but as an
aid as
> > > > someone is making the transition from no to yes, is, "Who's
going to
> > > > die?"
> > > >
> > > > So, what harm are you talking about? Real life examples are
more
> > > > useful than vagueness.
> > > >
> > > > > I think that is a terrific
> > > > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment,
and that
> > > > > not all
> > > > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created
equal.
> > > >
> > > > We should be discussing the world as we go along in life not
grasping
> > > > at teachable moments. Too often "teachable moments" is a
parent
> > > > internally saying "You're wrong. I'm right. I need you to see
the
> > > > right way."
> > > >
> > > > If my daughter comes for a second bowl of ice cream she'd
appreciate
> > > > me saying "We're eating in 15 minutes." Then she can use the
> > > > information to make a more informed choice. As part of her
decision
> > > > making, she might ask what we're having. :-) The right answer
is
> > > > whatever she decides, not what I think she should do. Part of
living
> > > > together, she will have gathered the nutritional value of
food but
> > > > even if she decides she'd rather have more ice cream than
dinner,
> > > > it's not a forever decision where this one experience will
kill her
> > > > or where forever after she'll decide to have ice cream
instead of
> > > > dinner. She can use the freedom and experience to assess when
it's
> > > > right for *her* to have something other than dinner.
> > > >
> > > > We learn best with the freedom to explore. Part of that
freedom is
> > > > trying things out to see what happens *to us*. Part of that
freedom
> > > > is the freedom to put up with the bad parts of something for
a while
> > > > to get the good parts.
> > > >
> > > > If child is unhappy and feels stuck in a place better than
saying no
> > > > to what they're doing is to expand their world so there is
more to
> > > > choose from. Help them find something else rather than make
them do
> > > > something else.
> > > >
> > > > But, again, without a specific example, that's only vaguely
helpful.
> > > >
> > > > Joyce
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.4. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:21 am ((PDT))
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
> >
> > >Help doesn't involve deciding what and when other people need to
learn
> > something.<
> >
> > I disagree. As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better
wants
> > something that I know will be harmful to them, I think that is a
> > terrific
> > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and
that not
> > all
> > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created equal.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-
> >
> > And how would you go about that? What things would you consider
> > "harmful"? What food/activities have more value than others? How
would
> > you go about stopping a child from eating/doing something? How
about
> > when he has a car? When he's at a friend's house?
> >
> > When you say, "that is a prefect time for them to learn about
> > moderation..."----what does that mean to you?
> >
> > It's easy to stop them as three year olds. It's a whole different
> > matter when they're 16. How can one person decide what and when
another
> > person needs to learn something?
> >
> > -==-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > And no, I don't believe it's necessary for a
> > good unschooler to say "yes" unquestioningly to EVERYTHING the
child
> > suddenly wants.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > *I* don't think *amything* should be done "unquestioningly." *I*
> > question just about everything. And I encourage my boys to do the
same.
> >
> > But I say "yes" or an equivalent to "yes" a lot.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > You can be an unschooler that presents the aspects of those
> > choices that the child may not have thought about, deciding for
them not
> > when they'll learn it, but when they'll be exposed to a valuable
fact or
> > opinion that they might not have otherwise been exposed to.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > You seem to be taking a "teacher" role instead of a *partner*
role.
> >
> > I give A LOT of advice and and expose them to A LOT of
things/ideas.
> > But my goal is NOT to teach a lesson or tell them what to do.
It's to
> > make sure they have as much info as absolutely possible, NOT make
the
> > decisions *for* them. I don't have that kind of control---nor do
I want
> > it.
> >
> > To give a real life current example: my 20 year old son wants to
> > hitchhike. TOTALLY freaks me out---and he knows it. And I have
told him
> > that I will give him a gas card and make sure his car is always
in
> > tip-top shape. I will do whatever *I* can to make it unnecessary
to
> > hitchhike. He *stills* wants to do it. And I know I can't stop
him. I
> > just want him safe, but I cannot MAKE him. I can only give him as
much
> > info as possible and hope he makes good choices ---or is just
lucky!
> >
> > Am I uncomfortable? You betcha! And there's no guarantee he ever
*will*
> > hitchhike. It's just a desire now. He may "outgrow" it---or
decide not
> > to. But he may live safely "on the road" for years.
> >
> > The point is: it's not an example of "top-down" decision. We work
> > together. I'll support his choice---even as uncomfortable as I am
with
> > it. He doesn't *want* me to be uncomfortable or frightened
either, so
> > that weighs in his decision-making. But ultimately, it's
Cameron's
> > choice, and I have to be OK with that.
> >
> > -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Something as
> > simple as a true story: "I once ate X Twinkies and then threw up,
didn't
> > want to see one or smell one for months!"
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > *IF* it's TRUE.
> >
> > And would the child be able to make that same choice? Eat "x"
Twinkies?
> > And what if he doesn't throw up?
> >
> > I ate a large cucumber salad once and threw up and didn't want to
see
> > or smell cucumbers for months. Does that make cucumbers bad? Does
that
> > make my story valuable?
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-==-
> >
> > So back to the 8 month old. If the parent decided that the play
therapy
> > was
> > a positive thing for the reasons she explained, I don't see how
it's
> > "against unschooling" for her to have done so.
> >
> > -==-=-=-=-
> >
> > As soon as a parent sees her child as something that needs to be
> > "fixed"---especially if it is a developmental issue---and
ESPECIALLY if
> > it's something that has a LARGE window of acceptable milestones,
it can
> > become an issue with accepting Where The Child Is Now. It's OK to
be
> > "behind" in some things. It's OK to be "ahead" in some things.
It's OK
> > to be "average." But in unschooling, we're not comparing our
children
> > to other kids. They are who and what and where they ARE.
> >
> > Popping labels on them like "delayed" can be harmful and should
be
> > avoided. He just IS who he IS. I can't imagine any stranger could
come
> > up with any kind of "speech therapy" that would be anything any
> > attentive parent wouldn't employ in day to day interactions with
her
> > eight month old infant. Just like I can't imagine that any
teacher
> > could come up with any kind of "reading therapy" any attentive
parent
> > wouldn't employ in day to day interactions with her child.
> >
> > The spectrum is just *too* wide to say that "strategies" must be
> > considered---much less, *used*----at such a young age.
> >
> > ~Kelly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.5. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > Posted by: "Jodi Bezzola" jodibezzola@... jodibezzola
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:41 am ((PDT))
> >
> > ~~We often have to pull our fears out and scrutinize them. That's
uncomfortable work for many people. It's *much* easier to go with the
fear and do something "just incase". But
> > this list isn't for promoting ideas to mollify fears. It's for
dragging fears out kicking and screaming into the light of day ;-)~~
> >
> > After having been on this list for awhile, I can so relate to
all you new members who come on board and start posting. I think
many of us can say that when we were new here we felt our emails were
being "attacked". I have come to see that this is a place where
everything is questioned, discussed, agreed/disagreed with (in the
light of radical unschooling), and it's not *personal*. For me the
challenge came when I took what was said to be about *me* and it
isn't about that, it's about supporting radical unschooling
principles. I have come to appreciate this *hugely*, but it didn't
happen overnight. It all triggered me because it was the *truth*.
Ever heard the saying "the truth will set you free but first it'll
piss you off?". That was my experience.
> >
> > I have massive fears that since I'm not limiting my girls'
sugar intake, they will have big challenges with it like I did. I
have to remind myself (sometimes hourly!) that *they are not me*.
Sugar was completely restricted when I was a child, which manifested
as me at 5 years of age stealing money from my parents, crossing a
very busy highway, so I could get to a store that sold what I wanted,
at 20 years of age as an out of control bulemic, and at 41 years of
age as one who is still struggling with weight/body image and
periodically obsessed with all things sugar.
> >
> > What a gift it would have been to have one of my parents
say "yes" and let me figure out for myself what felt good for *me*,
not some arbitrary rule some doctor came up with. My own internal
process was completely obliterated by the overwhelming desire to have
what I was told I couldn't have even one morsel of.
> >
> > So...inspite of all this, I *still* have fear about what my
girls' experience will be, which manifests in a desire to limit them,
which I already *know* doesn't work!!!
> >
> > Coming to embrace radical unschooling has meant a gift of
freedom for my children, and extremely "uncomfortable work" for *me*.
> >
> > Jodi
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try it now.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.6. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
> > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:43 am ((PDT))
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
> >
> > It all triggered me because it was the *truth*. Ever heard the
> > saying "the truth will set you free but first it'll piss you
off?".
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-
> >
> > I have the bumper sticker. <G>
> >
> > ~Kelly
> >
> > Kelly Lovejoy
> > Conference Coordinator
> > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.7. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
> > Posted by: "Joyce Fetteroll" jfetteroll@... jfetteroll
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:43 pm ((PDT))
> >
> >
> > On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Barbara Perez wrote:
> > > Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there
very
> > > very gradually instead.
> >
> > A couple inches down, on the home page of my website, in bold and
red
> > so no one can miss it, is:
> > > Don't drop all your parenting rules at once. Just say "Yes!"
more.
> > >
> >
> > When kids are led to believe that control = love, removing all
> > control and rules can feel like "I give up. I don't care about
you
> > anymore."
> >
> > > But in the course of doing that, and in hindsight, I
> > > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on
this
> > > board
> > > advocate would have been in their best interest.
> >
> > But your conclusion was drawn from kids who weren't always
unschooled.
> >
> > When someone comes to the list seeking advice about the behavior
of a
> > child who exhibits some kind of excessive behavior -- anger,
> > overindulgence, avoidance of something healthy -- it's helpful
to
> > know that they were up to that point controlled. (And someone
will
> > ask! You can usually tell ;-)
> >
> > > After all, many children develop negative habits on their own,
for
> > > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not
having
> > > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to
my
> > > point about
> > > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
and
> > > healthy
> > > ones - do you?
> >
> > Of course. The big huge question -- and the big huge difference
> > between traditional approaches and mindful parenting -- is
*why*?
> > Traditional parenting looks at behavior and seeks a fix. Mindful
> > parenting sees the behavior as a reaction to something in the
child's
> > life.
> >
> > We can't always know why, though. But it's helpful to realize
that
> > behavior is a reaction to *something*. It's a communication
that's
> > saying "Something's wrong. And I'm trying to fix it." Sometimes
they
> > pick the wrong method.
> >
> > Second, and it's a big second, "bad habits" are often reactions
to
> > stress. Trying to stop the child from the action they're using
to
> > relieve their stress can increase the stress. The focus should be
on
> > getting the stress out of the child's life, not the child. The
focus
> > should be on helping the child explore other ways to relieve
stress.
> > (Since we can't get rid of all stress. Life has stress. But at
least
> > we aren't forcing the huge stress of school on them!)
> >
> > Third, if it's a child recovering from control or school, what
looks
> > like a "bad habit" (say months of TV watching and video game
> > watching) can be their way of decompressing. It's more helpful
to
> > come here and ask what people's experiences are instead of
looking at
> > a behavior and drawing conclusions from it.
> >
> > > And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
> > > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established,
it
> > > takes more
> > > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why
would it
> > > be so
> > > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to
quit
> > > smoking,
> > > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> > > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society?
> >
> > How many of them were unschooled and mindfully parented?
> >
> > This is similar to the question that pops up occasionally about
> > mindful parenting and saying "yes": What if your child wants to
use
> > drugs? Would you just buy them for him? (Asked, of course,
> > sarcastically! ;-)
> >
> > The question assumes that all kids, regardless of parenting and
> > childhood, are the same. When kids reach the teen years, unless
> > you're lucky, they will want to try drugs. The only thing that
keeps
> > them from using drugs is strong parental control until they're
old
> > enough to make intelligent choices.
> >
> > Just isn't true! (If it were, all unschooled and mindfully
parented
> > kids would be drug fiends! ;-)
> >
> > I think a far more true statement than we are "creatures of
habit" is
> > that we can pick some bizarre ways to relieve stress, ways that
put a
> > band-aid on it, but don't get to the source of it. When I was in
> > school, I watched a lot of TV after school and on weekends. The
> > summer after my freshman year of college, I practically parked
myself
> > in front of HBO and watched movies all day. (I estimated I
watched
> > Monty Python and the Holy Grail 37 times that summer ;-) And I
didn't
> > even get it when I first started watching! I just needed to
> > decompress. It *looked* like a bad habit.
> >
> > When people have ongoing stress that they can't (or don't
believe
> > they can) change, and their choice of stress relief only helps
ease
> > them for the evening, they're going to keep doing it. It's going
to
> > look like a bad habit. But it's really a reaction to stress.
> >
> > > I believe another
> > > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of
habits
> > > do I want
> > > them to form?"
> >
> > But *why* are they developing habits in the first place? Get to
the
> > root first.
> >
> > I think your assumption that we're creatures of habit is false.
I
> > think we're creatures in need of stress relief! ;-) So the need
is to
> > relieve the stress first and foremost.
> >
> > And that's why real examples of real kids are more useful for
> > discussion. Real kids have real reasons for what they do.
> >
> > Some habits *are* useful. It's useful to find ways to minimize
the
> > yuckiness of teeth brushing until teeth brushing becomes a
habit,
> > until the child can do it automatically and can tune out the
> > annoyance of it.
> >
> > > because children have the luxury of being at a stage where
> > > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for
the
> > > same
> > > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating
boxed
> > > macaroni
> > > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
> > > scavenging
> > > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in
another)
> > > will not be
> > > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those
specific
> > > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children
need the
> > > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative
habits, and
> > > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just
providing
> > > alternatives.
> >
> > But they weren't always unschooled, always mindfully parented
kids,
> > were they?
> >
> > Yes, the process *is* different for kids recovering from control
and
> > poor home lives.
> >
> > Almost always, within someone's question, there are clues (even
if
> > they don't come out and say it), that the child is recovering
from
> > control or some kind of abuse. The child's behavior is often a
tip
> > off. Or the way the poster phrases their problem. The advice will
be
> > different for them than for someone who has always unschooled.
> >
> > Without those clues, the best advice for *this* list is to help
> > parents give their children trust and freedom.
> >
> > > Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out because I've
> > > heard some people on this and another board say "that just
doesn't
> > > happen"
> >
> > It doesn't happen with always unschooled kids who trust their
parents
> > are there to help them.
> >
> > If parenting made no difference in how a child reacts to the
world
> > and the choices they make, then we should all just control them
from
> > the start. Make them seen and not heard. It would be a lot more
> > convenient.
> >
> > LIfe experience, how their treated, whether they can trust that
> > someone cares enough to spend time on helping them get what's
> > important to them *does* make a difference in how children
behave.
> > And always unschooled, mindfully parented child is way less
unlikely
> > to use drugs, still be sitting on their parents' couch at 25
playing
> > video games and all the other things parents fear
that "indulgence"
> > causes.
> >
> > > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not
even
> > > as extreme
> > > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations
(not from
> > > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense
that were
> > > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very
> > > unhealthy habits
> >
> > And your conclusion is that they developed bad habits because
they
> > didn't have help stopping them.
> >
> > My conclusion is that they developed bad habits because they
didn't
> > have someone they trusted to help them get what they wanted, or
had
> > someone maintaining the stress in their lives instead of stopping
it
> > or helping them find useful ways to relieve it.
> >
> > Since we have a lot of parents here who have raised children
without
> > controlling, without analyzing their kids for bad habits -- but
> > watching for stress to either relieve the stress or help them
find
> > ways to deal with stress -- my theory more closely resembles the
> > lives of unschooled kids than yours does.
> >
> > > while my temperament was such
> > > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to
> > > munch away on
> > > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I
did get
> > > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of
physical
> > > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer
even
> > > though my
> > > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules
about
> > > mealtimes
> > > and limits on snacks, etc.
> >
> > A big important point is that 1) there's no way of knowing what
you
> > would have done and 2) you were schooled and your behavior was
warped
> > by recovery from the stress of school.
> >
> > I watched a lot of TV (as I said) while in school and while
working.
> > Now without the stress of school and work, I watch little.
> >
> > You *can't* extrapolate from your stressed behavior to what you
would
> > have done if given freedom. That's probably one of the hardest
things
> > for people to imagine as they're trying to get a handle on
> > unschooling and mindful parenting. They only know the reactions
of
> > people who grew up as schooled stressed children. They *think*
> > they're familiar with the spectrum of people's behavior, but
what
> > they really know is the behavior of people who are schooled and
> > stressed. It *does* make a difference. A huge difference.
> >
> > From unschoolers experience with kids raised without the stress
of
> > school, kids behavior is *very* different. They *don't* make the
same
> > choices as kids in school and kids who are conventionally
parented.
> > They don't have the same stresses those kids do. They have
support
> > for the stresses that are a natural part of life.
> >
> > > I have seen the argument about that kind of
> > > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems
later
> > > in life,
> >
> > WIth unschooled kids? With kids who have been given freedom and
> > parenting mindfully?
> >
> > If the parenting makes no difference then everyone here should
stop
> > parenting mindfully because it's a lot more difficult -- at least
in
> > the short run -- to be working with kids rather than just
handing
> > down our decision.
> >
> > > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
> > > theory...but
> > > what I see in my own life is the opposite:
> >
> > But you weren't unschooled. You weren't mindfully parenting.
> >
> > > When I think of how hard my
> > > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as
an
> > > adult that
> > > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy
life.
> >
> > And as a child?
> >
> > You *can't* know what decisions you'd be making had you been
parented
> > differently. You can only guess. You can only guess based on
nothing
> > but experience with people who have *not* been parented mindfully
and
> > not been unschooled. You have no experience with hundreds of
> > mindfully parented unschoolers. I'm not saying that in a mean
way.
> > I'm just saying there's a reason a control group in an experiment
is
> > important. Without a control group -- in this case a group of
people
> > without school in their lives -- no one can know what behavior
is
> > natural to kids and what behavior is natural to *schooled* and
> > *controlled* kids.
> >
> > Unschoolers *do* know. We know the difference between our kids
> > behavior and choices and how they view the world and the behavior
of
> > ourselves, the kids we grew up with, the adults we know. We can
see
> > the difference between the friends that are schooled and the
> > unschooled friends that are parented mindfully.
> >
> > > Is there
> > > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on
this
> > > board who
> > > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives,
not
> > > in spite
> > > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME
> > > degree of
> > > rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
> >
> > Yes. I can even say I turned out okay because I went to school! I
can
> > ignore the bad parts (as I learned to do in school because I
couldn't
> > stop them) and appreciate the good parts. I probably wouldn't
have
> > gone into engineering had I been homeschooled. (Though I can't
know,
> > of course.) And I appreciate the education I got. I'm a really
good
> > programmer and I might not have found that out because what I did
in
> > my free time was draw. (But I can't really know what I would have
done.)
> >
> > But I *do* know that control *can* damage kids and trust
doesn't.
> > While I turned out fine and like the person I am, and I probably
> > wouldn't be the passionate advocate for unschooling and mindful
> > parenting that I am had I grown up with them, I don't want to
take
> > the chance with methods with my daughter that can turn out
horribly
> > wrong. I've met oodles at unschooling conferences. And even if
they
> > haven't all be unschooled their whole lives, as a group they're a
lot
> > more pleasant than a similar group of schooled kids. When the
parents
> > are away, the kids don't go wild. They behave just as they do
around
> > their parents :-) When they aren't controlled, there's no reason
to
> > go wild.
> >
> > > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm
definitely not
> > > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child
life. I'm
> > > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or
nothing"
> > > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced
reasoning),
> > > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth
swing"
> > > kind of
> > > way -kwim?
> >
> > Perhaps. I think there is a perception of unschoolers here
advising
> > "let it all go forever and ever" because posters are writing in
with
> > problems created by control. The obvious advice is "Stop
> > controlling." If someone has created problems by controlling
food,
> > the obvious answer is "Stop controlling what they eat." And it
really
> > is the answer for now. Once the parents get by the need to
control,
> > *then* they can see what helping kids looks like. But while
they're
> > still in the thrall of control, control feels like helping kids.
And
> > the *kids* still feel the control.
> >
> > If you look beyond the initial advice to let control go, you'll
see
> > people offering advice on how to help kids help themselves. But
the
> > initial advice is "Stop controlling."
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (44)
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> > 2.8. Re: Limits & parenting WAS "delayed" 8-month-old
> > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:43 pm ((PDT))
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
> >
> > So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my experience
with
> > children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but who
had
> > been
> > through VERY different parenting before coming to me as foster
children.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-
> >
> > It's not impossible, but it does color the situation. Several
moms here
> > have adopted children or taken in fosters---or have even
completely
> > DROPPED their old parenting styles and changed how they approach
their
> > children--some all at once and some gradually (which is what most
of us
> > here recommend).
> >
> > But children who have been damaged by bad parenting---or NO
> > parenting---start at a different spot. Same with *parents* who
have
> > little to no parenting skills modeled *for* them. Trust and
respect
> > should still be given though! Maybe even moreso!
> >
> > Nevertheless, we assume *here* that the children are average kids
with
> > no major "issues." If your child (or his history) is waaaay
outside the
> > norm, I would assume you would act accordingly. BUT...I think
it's
> > important to see the wide spectrum of "normal."
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there
very
> > very gradually instead. But in the course of doing that, and in
> > hindsight, I
> > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on
this
> > board
> > advocate would have been in their best interest.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > What we suggest is to say "yes" more.
> >
> > The "radical" part is simply not being arbitrary. It ain't that
hard.
> >
> > *Before* blurting out the impulsive "no"---stop a minute and ask
> > *yourself*, "Why NOT?" If there's a valid reason that canNOT be
gotten
> > around, by all means say no. But if it's something that can be
> > considered and tweaked and made a reality, why *wouldn't* you do
it?
> > What's stopping you from saying yes?
> >
> > That "radical" part is questioning your own self as to why you
> > automatically and arbitrarily say no. *Many* parents say no as a
matter
> > of course. They have the power, damn it; and they're going to use
it.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-==-
> >
> > In fact, I came to
> > understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence
and
> > freedom
> > as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most
sensible
> > option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
> > pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and possibly
for
> > some
> > others.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > Ideally, all independence and freedom are gradual and
> > "ability-dependent." Yet how many parents *push* their kids to BE
> > "independent" before they're ready?
> >
> > That's *why* we don't throw eight year olds out in their own
> > apartments. Not that I don't know a few eight year olds who could
> > probably handle it! <G> But I also know some 25 year olds who
still
> > struggle with it. We all need to come to it gradually and as we
are
> > able. That's why we have parents. But that doesn't mean my job as
a
> > parent is to make their decisions *for* them. It means that I
need to
> > help them along and be their safety net and lifeline when their
> > decisions aren't the best.
> >
> > Making their decisions *for* them only hinders their decision-
making
> > abilities. They (WE!) really *do* need to make a LOT of smaller
> > decisions before we start making really, really big ones. And we
need
> > to make a few WRONG decisions. And better wrong SMALL decisions
than
> > wrong BIG decisions!
> >
> > Twinkies just don't qualify as big decisions. <G>
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > And that brings me to my point about
> > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
and
> > healthy
> > ones - do you?
> >
> > -=-==-
> >
> > Sure.
> >
> > -==-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
> > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it
takes
> > more
> > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would
it be
> > so
> > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit
smoking,
> > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
> > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society?
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > I think the ONLY thing that can change anyone or anything is
freedom
> > and information.
> >
> > What else can? Seriously?
> >
> > You're here at UnschoolingBasics, I assume, in order to be a
better
> > parent and to help your child/ren keep/<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 23, 2008, at 11:26 AM, <lauramae117@...>
<lauramae117@...> wrote:

> I get it. My husband does not. At all.

Be gentle with him. He's scared. He wants what's best and can't see
how this will lead that direction.

What if he were trying some cult thing on himself and the kids that
to you looked dangerous and delusional? Would you trust the books
that had caused the dangerous delusion?

If your child were scared, would you throw up your arms and give up?
Rather than treating him like an adult who should know better, treat
the scared little boy inside of him. Like most people he bought into
the school thing because he had no choice. If people could learn just
by living life, then what was all that pain and misery for 12+ years
for?

Fortunately summer is coming up and he wouldn't be in school anyway.

Have a gentle talk with your husband. *Do* begin with letting him
know that you understand this makes him nervous. Really understand
that yourself. Maybe try to get him to see that if he were beginning
something that to you looked dangerous -- like riding a motorcycle or
something -- and he was educating himself on how to avoid the risks,
that it wouldn't help him with his endeavor, or help him feel
trusted, if you didn't do any reading but kept nagging at him about
the risks based on what you thought was true. Let him know you'd
love to discuss it with him, but he'll need to read so you're working
from the same information.

Maybe ask him to totally relax for a year (and a bit), until Sept
2010. And during that time he should look at what your son is
actually learning, not trying to see school in what he's doing. In
fact, he should forget that school exists. He should forget that
there's some school yardstick to measure by. Unschooling will not
look like school. It's going to look like the process of picking up
learning to speak. Your child is just going to use whatever he knows
to the best of his ability and get better at it as a side effect.

Unschooling won't look like school learning at all. (That needs
repeated!)

Kids who are immersed in their language, without being instructed,
learn a *huge* amount between 2 and 4. None of it looks like
instruction. None of it looks like school. Compare that to 2 years of
Spanish in school, and the difference is astounding. (Would it make
sense to use an English class for foreign speakers as a yard stuck to
judge whether the chaotic natural process of language acquisition,
and what the child is learning and when, it working or not?)

We *assume* that there's something magical about the early years when
kids can supposedly absorb information and they lose the ability
later. But, no, what they're doing is not so much absorbing as
pulling in what's important to them right now and putting together
their own picture of how the world works. That's how we naturally
learn. (What changes is the real world is taken away and a list of
information to memorize is substituted.) Kids get the picture wrong a
lot! But since they're using the information for real world purposes,
it's self correcting. When they get it wrong, eventually it doesn't
work and they figure out a better way. (Immersion is still the best
way to learn a language, even as an adult.)

If he agrees to read, you might try printing out short bits from my
website:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

It leans more toward logic and tends to appeal to men more.

Joyce

Ren Allen

~~
Have a gentle talk with your husband. *Do* begin with letting him
know that you understand this makes him nervous. ~~

I remember at one point I just stopped all our unschooling discussion
and asked my dh if he thought I was a good mother. Affirmative.

So then I pointed out how much I loved our children and cared about
them and "would I willingly to anything that would harm them?"
Well no.

"Ok then, I need you to trust that I care about them, I care about
their learning and I'd NEVER do anything to hurt them"

THAT much he could understand. It gave me some space. As the years
unfolded he learned to trust natural learning. Hearing him talk today,
you'd never know it was the same person!:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> I remember at one point I just stopped all our unschooling
discussion
> and asked my dh if he thought I was a good mother. Affirmative.
>
> So then I pointed out how much I loved our children and cared
about
> them and "would I willingly to anything that would harm them?"
> Well no.
>
> "Ok then, I need you to trust that I care about them, I care about
> their learning and I'd NEVER do anything to hurt them"
>
> THAT much he could understand. It gave me some space. As the years
> unfolded he learned to trust natural learning. Hearing him talk
today,
> you'd never know it was the same person!:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>


Another great post. I eventually did this with my husband. If I try
to talk to him about unschooling even today, he thinks it's a bunch
of hooey. He trusts me completely with our kids, though. That really
amazes me.

Alysia

Charlene

Aw, thank you. A gentle talk sounds good. I am opinionated and
stubborn by nature which equals defensiveness (for me!).

It's just I'm such a true believer in this lifestyle and I am
surrounded by naysayers!! You know that saying where "if everyone
says it's true, then maybe it is" - I don't believe it in my heart,
but I do get sucked into it sometimes.

I feel like I'm always defending and justifying how we learn; and now
to my husband as well. I'm tired. I even "had it out" with my sister-
in law and my in-laws in England last fall. My mother-in-law wanted
to know how "Big Brother" could be sure all us homeschoolers weren't
abusing our kids!! My mouth fell open.

I'll try the gentle approach, because everyone in the family does say
I am a good mother...so it's not logical that I would mess up the
kids on purpose!
Thank you.
Charlene


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~
> Have a gentle talk with your husband. *Do* begin with letting him
> know that you understand this makes him nervous. ~~
>
> I remember at one point I just stopped all our unschooling
discussion
> and asked my dh if he thought I was a good mother. Affirmative.
>
> So then I pointed out how much I loved our children and cared about
> them and "would I willingly to anything that would harm them?"
> Well no.
>
> "Ok then, I need you to trust that I care about them, I care about
> their learning and I'd NEVER do anything to hurt them"
>
> THAT much he could understand. It gave me some space. As the years
> unfolded he learned to trust natural learning. Hearing him talk
today,
> you'd never know it was the same person!:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Schuyler

-----------------------------------
I feel like I'm always defending and justifying how we learn; and now
to my husband as well. I'm tired. I even "had it out" with my sister-
in law and my in-laws in England last fall. My mother-in-law wanted
to know how "Big Brother" could be sure all us homeschoolers weren't
abusing our kids!! My mouth fell open.
---------------------

Big Brother in the UK has decided it isn't worth the fight. At least for the moment. Although he/she/they are going after single mothers who home-educate. But there were a couple of big well publicised cases in the UK that talked a lot about a need to be aware of all children. Only one of the cases included children who were home-educated. I suppose my response would be, if it came up again, to talk about the children who drown in pools while they are being bullied by their peers and not being watched by their teachers. Or the children who hang themselves in their bedrooms because their lives are so very bleak. There are lots of stories of death in school and out, children who are stabbed by their classmates, rarely guns in the UK, but lots and lots of bullying. It isn't really possible to keep all children safe, and big government isn't going to manage that trick. Nor is small government, really.

Really though your in-laws are just worried. They are worried that you are taking their grandbabies down some scary, weirdo path that won't lead to them being good adults. It is a legitimate fear. Not that you need to cater to their fear, but it may help if you are aware that it is a loving thing and not so much a critical one.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Charlene

I like how you said they are being "loving not critical". It's true.
I'll just continue down my "weirdo" path (LOL). Loving it.
Thank you
Charlene


--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
>
> -----------------------------------
> I feel like I'm always defending and justifying how we learn; and
now
> to my husband as well. I'm tired. I even "had it out" with my
sister-
> in law and my in-laws in England last fall. My mother-in-law
wanted
> to know how "Big Brother" could be sure all us homeschoolers
weren't
> abusing our kids!! My mouth fell open.
> ---------------------
>
> Big Brother in the UK has decided it isn't worth the fight. At
least for the moment. Although he/she/they are going after single
mothers who home-educate. But there were a couple of big well
publicised cases in the UK that talked a lot about a need to be
aware of all children. Only one of the cases included children who
were home-educated. I suppose my response would be, if it came up
again, to talk about the children who drown in pools while they are
being bullied by their peers and not being watched by their
teachers. Or the children who hang themselves in their bedrooms
because their lives are so very bleak. There are lots of stories of
death in school and out, children who are stabbed by their
classmates, rarely guns in the UK, but lots and lots of bullying. It
isn't really possible to keep all children safe, and big government
isn't going to manage that trick. Nor is small government, really.
>
> Really though your in-laws are just worried. They are worried that
you are taking their grandbabies down some scary, weirdo path that
won't lead to them being good adults. It is a legitimate fear. Not
that you need to cater to their fear, but it may help if you are
aware that it is a loving thing and not so much a critical one.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: lauramae117@...


From what I've read, it may take a year or more for him to level out,
get comfy
and regain his sense of curiosity about the world. I get it. My
husband does
not. At all. He won't read any of the dozens of books I have that
concerns the
subjects, he just gets mmad at me and Uriah because i'm not making him
do
anything. He thinks unschooling is a crock of cow poop, and this is
causing
much stress for me.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah, well, he's not alone among dads---or the general public. <g>

Pose this question to him:

If HE won't read anything you suggest, why shouldn't your son follow
his lead? I mean, if dad is so uninterested in learning something new,
why would his son be any different?

-=-=-=-=-

Typical day: wake around 9;00, breakfast, water, weed garden, plays
with little
sis, goes to room builds with legos for hours, walks in the woods,
lunch, plays
two hours daily on Disney's Pirates of the Carribean online (I set the
time
limit, he uses a timer to regulate playing time). Plays with neighbor
kids when
they "get out", reads, goes to an art class on Wednesdays, joins me in
all my
activities out and about town. Note the complete absense of putting
pencil to
paper. This is what bothers my hubby, who, is not my son's father
(which, I'm
sure, has a lot o do with him being so dowm on the whole idea).

-=-=-=-=-

First: translate all that into educationese. Give your husband a
WRITTEN synopsis of your day. Each day. Every day. Be detailed. You
could write down what you just did above, but it doesn't sound very
educational, does it? Make it sound "curriculum-like."

"Walk in the woods" becomes "nature walk." "Discovered a new path
between our house and river. Examined two caterpillars, a praying
mantid, and several spiders. Identified four birds by sight or sound.
Made a stream and altered it by damming. Discussed the Clinton-Obama
struggle and strategies as well as penis envy. Examined wildflowers;
discussed colors in nature and how form follows function. Made "fairy
circles" with twigs and leaves and flowers. Told stories about fairies
and gnomes."

Subjects covered: biology, art, natural history, politics, strategies,
engineering, sex roles/gender stereotyping, botany, fantasy,
storytelling, plot development, music. I'm sure others could come up
with more! <g>

And then there's the Lego-building and reading and playing with sister
and gaming and art class and everything else. The child is learning.
Let it be up to *you* to make his play and learning look "educational"
to your husband.

"Pencil to paper" is totally unnecessary, but that doesn't mean you
can't offer it. Not a "lesson," but you could buy beautiful papers and
fancy pens/pencils/markers and have fun playing with them together.
Write down his stories. Bind them. Publish them! Give a compilation to
grands and friends for Christmas!

-=-=-=-=-

Hoe do you keep unhelpful relatives (esp. spouses!) at
bay, while allowing your child the freedom to reconnect with what they
love to
learn?

-==-=-

By helping the husband see that the learning IS happening.

Everyone else? Other relatives? Screw 'em. They don't matter.

-=-=-=-=-

We plan on attending this year's Live and Learn Conf, and I sincerely
hope Doug (hobby) goes with us.

-=-=-=-

I do too. You're just too close to miss it!



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlene <cbarrell@...>

It sounds like your husband knows my husband! My kids have beeen home
for 2 years and I've only been "unschooling" since the fall (before
that I fought with them a lot over doing their curriculum). He
actually sat me down this weekend to tell me it's not working for
HIM. He wants me to play teacher and to see workbook material as
proof of learning. I say there is proof of learning if he just opened
his eyes and looked. He called this thing we do "pooey foo".
I did tell him "too bad", I'm not doing it for him but for the kids.
He has never done any reading about homeschooling and he has never
participated in the kids learning (not even reading a story to them).
It does cause stress though. He thinks I'm being controlling about it
(and won't see his point of view). I think I'm just being very
PASSIONATE about it. I'd love to hear what others say.

-=-=-=-

He loves them too and only wants what's best for them. He doesn't read
here every day, so HELP him.

We're all so patient with our kids, and yet we seem to have trouble
helping our adult partners with *their* learning.

Give it to him the way he would like to see it. That doesn't mean you
need to start buying curricula and giving lessons. But give your
*husband* what he needs. Translate your day---every day---into an
easy-to-read synopsis that SHOWS the learning that took place during
the day. Remind him that, by law, you only have to document 180 days
(how many days schooled children's teachers have to document), but that
we learn even when it's not necessarily so obvious. A day watching
Ferris Bueller's Day Off and Fast Times at Ridgemont High is JUST as
educational as a day at the Science Museum. But help him SEE that with
written documentation of what you do each day.

Make that *your* job. HELP him see the learning that takes place during
play.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Queana

I had a similar conrsation with my husband recently too. Although I've
explained that unschooling is not unlearning, he kept king why the kids
weren't doing any schoolwork and when they were going tostart again. I
finally sat down and talked it out with him. I felt similarly hat he
should trust me; in fact I brought up my 'credentials' - "Aren't I onef
the best moms you know? Aren't I one of the smartest people you know? Don't
I have a teaching credential, a Masters in curriculum and instruction and
quitea few years of teaching experience (I know, not important, but to him
it is)? Why don't you trust me to ake sure our kids are learning what they
need to learn?"

I kept asking him what specifically he was ccerned about... Was there
something specific he felt they really needed to know, was there something
he thought they were lacking in, etc. I wanted him to know that I was
aking his concerns seriously (I was!) and that I was not just gonna do
whatevr I damn well pleased (which I was, but it doesn't work to come
across that way lol.

Of course, he said he does trust me, but that he wants them to be doing
someting he can see, he wants to know what they're learning, wants
something to put onhis bulletin board at the office, lol. Even though I
know he has not spent .001% o the time thinking about the kids' education
that I have, he is still their otherparent and I totally respect his half
of the authority when it comes to the kids. will not go behind his back,
and I will not 'defy' his wishes. I would hate to have situation set up
where he is grilling the kids about their learning and am going around
defending them from him. That would be worse (for thekids especiallY!)
than having them do a worksheet or two now and then to sho dad! I think he
got that from me out of the conversation, and ended by saying thathe just
wanted to be able to see something, that we could at least pretend, lol.
So I am keeping notes on our daily activity. I had told him about
deschooling ad that it takes at least a few months, so by the time that's
up (its only been abot 2 I think) we'll make something for him and give him
something to make him feel beter which is really all he wants. Oh, and he
does not like the term unschooling, and we don't useit; I told him this is
just regular old homeschooling, but not of the school-at-home varety that
we had been doing before. As time goes by I know he will see the value in
wat we are doing, but he is not one that naturally goes against the flow
like I am

I had planned this conversation in my head for awhile ahead of time, and
some of te things I would have said if I had to were: let's give it a year
and see how they do and decide from there; I'll have them takethe SAT-10s
so you can see what they know;

Sarah

On 4/23/08 3:06 PM, "Charlene" <cbrrell@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> It sounds like your husband knows my hband! My kids have beeen home
> for 2 years and I've only been "unscholing" since the fall (before
> that I fought with them a lot over doing their curiculum). He
> actually sat me down this weekend to tell me it's not working or
> HIM. He wants me to play teacher and to see workbook material as
> proof of earning. I say there is proof of learning if he just opened
> his eyes and looked. H called this thing we do "pooey foo".
> I did tell him "too bad", I'm not doing it for him but for the kids.
> He has never done anyreading about homeschooling and he has never
> participated in the kids learning(not even reading a story to them).
> It does cause stress though. He thinks I'm being controlling about it
> (and won't see his point of view). I think I'm just being very
> PASSIONATE about it. I'd love to hear what others say.
>
> Charlene
>
> --- In [email protected]
> <mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com> , <lauramae117@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi, could this be a question for a new topic?
>> >
>> > --Third, if it's a child recovering from control or school, what
> looks
>> > like a "bad habit" (say months of TV watching an video game
>> > watching) can be their way of decompressing. It's more helpful t
>> > come here and ask what people's experiences are instead of looking
> at
>> > a behaior and drawing conclusions from it.--
>> >
>> > This is where we are at this moment. I understand that my son,
> wh's ten and has endured public school for 5 1/2 years, is
> decompressing. Als, up until now, we've never had TV or video games
> in his life, so there's the additioal complication of him "making up
> for lost time" with electronic media.
>> >
>> From what I've read, it may take a year or more for him to level
> out, get comfy and regain his sense of curisity about the world. I
> get it. My husband does not. At all. He wn't read any of the
> dozens of books I have that concerns the subjects, he ust gets mmad
> at me and Uriah because i'm not making him do anything. He thinks
> unschooling is a crock of cow poop, and this is causing much stres
> for me.
>> >
>> > Typical day: wake around 9;00, breakfast, water, wed garden,
> plays with little sis, goes to room builds with legos for hours,
> walks n the woods, lunch, plays two hours daily on Disney's Pirates
> of the Carribean online (I set the time limit, he uses a timer to
> regulate playing time). Plays with neighor kids when they "get
> out", reads, goes to an art class on Wednesdays, joinsme in all my
> activities out and about town. Note the complete absense of putting
> pencilto paper. This is what bothers my hubby, who, is not my son's
> father (which, I'm sure, has a lot o do with him being so dowm on the
> whole idea).
>> >
>> > Anyone have any advice? Hoe do you keep unhelpful relatives (esp.
> spouses!) at by, while allowing your child the freedom to reconnect
> with what they love to learn? We lan on attending this year's Live
> and Learn Conf, and I sincerely hopeDoug (hobby) goes with us.
>> >
>> > Thanks, Laura of Kill Devil Hills, NC
>> > >> > ---- [email protected]
>> <mailto:unschoolingbasics%0yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> > > There are 20 messages in this issue.
>>> > >
>>> > > Topics in this digest:
>>> > >
>>> > > 1.1.Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
>>> > > From: beenscln
>>> > > 1.2. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
>>> > > From: Melssa Gray
>>> > > 1.3. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
>>> > > From: kbcdlovejo@...
>>> > >
>>> > > 2.1. Re: "delayed" 8-moth-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: kbcdlovejo@...
>>> > > 2.2. Re: "delayed"8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: Barbara Perez
>>> > > 2.3. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: Barbra Perez
>>> > > 2.4. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: kbcdlovejo@...
>>> > > 2.5. Re: "delayed" 8-moth-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: Jodi Bezzola
>>> > > 2.. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
>>> > > From: kbcdlovejo@...
>>> > > 2.7. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book ecommendations
>>> > > From: Joyce Fetteroll
>>> > > 2.8. Re: Limits &parenting WAS "delayed" 8-month-old
>>> > > From: kbcdlovejo@...
>> > > 2.9. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: odi Bezzola
>>> > > 2.10. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>>> > From: Pamela Sorooshian
>>> > > 2.11. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-mnth-old
>>> > > From: Melissa Gray
>>> > >
>>> > > 3.1. Re: Book Recommendatios
>>> > > From: Barbara Perez
>>> > > 3.2. Re: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: Nancy
>>> > > 3.3. Re: Book Recommendations
>>> > > From: Schuyler
>>> > > 3.4. Re: Book Recommendation
>>> > > From: kbcdlovejo@...
>>> > >
>>> > > 4a. Re: Need Advice oncomputer times
>>> > > From: Debra Rossing
>>> > >
>>> > > 5. 11 y/os
>>> > From: Faith Void
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages
>>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 1.1. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
>>> > > Posted by: "beensclan" beensclan@... beensclan
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:24 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > I think this is a serious problem that stems from the early
>>>> > > > intervention stuff from schools. The government provides funds
> to
>>>> > > > states, counties, cities, schoos based on the number of
> children
>>>> > > > they have in their districts who need early intevention.
> Therefore,
>>>> > > > it's beneficial to the district...to find as many children s
>>>> > > > possible who need early intervention. It's difficult for new
> parents
>>>> > > > to trust themselves and trust their children when they see,
> hear and
>>>> > > > read all about all of this stuff everywhere.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Peopl are born to development normally, to survive, to thrive.
> We
>>>> > > > don't need all this intervention and special treatment. If we
> did,
>>>> > > > humns would not populate the planet.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Alysia
>>>> > > >
>>> > > >>> > > I agree with what Alysia wrote here and know it for a fact.
> used to
>>> > > work in the Special Needs classrooms. Around the time I began to> become
>>> > > very disenchanted with the system was when one of the mums
> decided that
>>> > > she would like here son to try attending a maistream Grade 2
> class in
>>> > > hopes that his behaviour issues would lessen. I had to sit at a
> meeting
>>> > > with teachers and an administration personel as they all agreed
that
>>> > > they would not let this student go mainstream. We all knew that
> if our
>>> > > Special Needs class-size ropped to below ten students, we would
> be
>>> > > affected funding-wise. The mother's request to move her son was
> denied.
>>> > > The mother ended up taking this to the top and eventually (thi
> makes me
>>> > > cringe...) won the right to move her son to mainstream.
>>> > >
>>> > After my experience with the schools and students with Special
> Needs I
>>> > > knew to neve let my son near that system. I'm pretty sure that
> if my
>>> > > son entered the system, a label would be put on him. It would
> probably
>>> > > be some form of sensory integration problem. Something that I
> see his
>>> > > body working out year after year to the point now where he seems
>>> > > "normal". Now he's free to learn, live an love with every
> confidence
>>> > > that he is whole and wonderfully made.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 1.2. R: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
>>> > > Posted by: "Melissa Gray" autismhlp@... multimomma
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:18 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>>> > Unfortunately MY experience is as a mother within the system.
> We're
>> > > all thankful for it though, regardless of the enormous amount of
>>> > > healng required, because without it, we'd never be so adamantly
>>> > > certain that unschooling our severely disabled child is perfect
> for her.
>>> > >
>>> > > The saddest part for me is that while I was fighting fighting
>> > > fighting for them to treat my daughter as a typical child, so
> any
>>> > > other parents in the autism system have given up. School is
> littl
>>> > > more than a respite care system. They don't know that they have> all
>>> > > these rights...rights that every parent gives up when you senda
>>> > > child to public school or therapy or whatever.
>>> > > Melissa
>>> > > Mm to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
>>> > > Wife to Zane
>>> > >
>>> > > blog me at
>>> > > htp://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
>>> > > Find out what's going on by me at MYZP.COM
>>> > > http://www.73071.net
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Apr 21, 2008, at 5:54 AM, beensclan wrote:
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > After my experience with the schoolsand students with Special
> Needs I
>>>> > > > knew to never let my son near that system. I'm pretty ure that
> if my
>>>> > > > son entered the system, a label would be put on him. It would
> probbly
>>>> > > > be some form of sensory integration problem. Something that I
> se his
>>>> > > > body working out year after year to the point now where he eems
>>>> > > > "normal". Now he's free to learn, live and love with every
> confidence
>>>> > > > that he is whole and wonderfully made.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > > >>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> _________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 1.3. Re: Book Recommendations now Early Intervention
>>> > > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
>>> > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:39 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original essage-----
>>> > > From: Melissa Gray <autismhelp@...>
>>> > >
>>> > > Unfortunately MY expeience is as a mother within the system.
> We're
>>> > > all thankful for it though, regardless of the enormous amount of
>>> > > haling required, because without it, we'd never be so adamantly
>>> > > certain thatunschooling our severely disabled child is perfect
> for her.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=--
>>> > >
>>> > > And here is a perfect example. I've MET Melissa's "sevrely
> disabled
>>> > > child" and found her to be anything BUT. My *limited* exposure to
> her
>>> > > led me to believe that she wasjust a little quieter than the
> others. I
>>> > > didn't see her as disabled at all, but profoundly rspected and
> trusted
>>> > > to be exactly Who She Is. With other parents and in school, she
> miht
>>> > > be treated as "less than." But Melissa and Zane are so attentiv
> of her
>>> > > (and the rest of the kids) that you don't see what she can't do
> ut
>>> > > what *all* she CAN.
>>> > >
>>> > > I knew before I met her that she struggledwith things, but had I
> *not*
>>> > > known that in advance, I probably wouldn't have mde that
> connection.
>>> > >
>>> > > This is true of all the unschooling kids 've met that are a
> little
>>> > > (and sometimes a LOT) more work to parent. Their parents mke it
> look
>>> > > easy. <G> You honestly wouldn't know because the children never
> seemto
>>> > > look or act "less than"---which is so common with schooled
> children.
>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ~Kelly
>>> > >
>>> > > Kelly Lovejoy
>>> > > Conference Coordnator
>>> > > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
>>> > > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> _________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > >
> _________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.1. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:24 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > From: rabbis3arewe <rabbits3arewe@...>
>>> > >
>>> > > I am new to this list. I posted with a book recommndation that I
>>> > > think is very supportive of unschooling philosophies and asked for
>>> > > other books to read. A mom responded and expressed concerns for
> her
>>> > > child. I gave her a suggestion based on what we did that was
>>> > > successful. Suddenly things are snowballing.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > That's why we suggest that new members rad for a week or two and
> read
>>> > > the archives for a while befor they post.
>>> > >
>>> > > It's hard to "get the feel" of a list and its posters in just a
> few
>>> > > days.
>>> > >
>>> > > nything that is posted that is counter to promoting an open,
> trusting,
>>> > >respectful relationship with your child will be questioned.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-==-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > I have been told that what I did for my child was dangerous and
> that
>>> > > my kids won't trust me bcause I'm not going to let them binge on
>>> > > Twinkies.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-==-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > I think you are misunderstanding---or putting a werd spin on it.
>>> > >
>>> > > No one said it was "dangerous." It certainly sems like an
>>> > > over-reaction. What was written was that speech therapy for an
> eigt
>>> > > month old is drastic and unnecessary---and could potentially
> color your
>>> > > (and others') view of your child (as "damaged" o "faulty" or
>>> > > "defective"). I've never known of an eight month old who could
> speak
>> > > yet, so why would there need to be an intervention? I know you
> wrote
>>> > > that there were early "signs"---but that's like saying a four
> month old
>>> > > is delayed in walking because he's not making some certain kind
> of leg
>>> > > motions or because he decided to crawl backwards for a while. Or
> a five
>>> > > year old is delayed in reading because she's not writing her name
> yet.
>>> > >
>>> > > Early intervention *can* be harmful (not dangerous). It can
> damage the
>>> > > relationship between parent and child. Not that an eight month
> old will
>>> > > know his mom ever even *did* anythingabout his speech! <g> But
> in the
>>> > > mom's mind, she thinks she "fixed" aproblem. THAT can snowball!
>>> > >
>>> > > It's that way with reading: schols think that they "teach"
> reading
>>> > > with all their lessons andtricks and pressure, but in reality
> the
>>> > > child would have come to rading in just about the same time---
> withOUT
>>> > > all that unnecessay drilling. Patience is BIG. HUGE, but
> unfortunately
>>> > > an underappreciated and under-used virtue. <g>
>>> > >
>>> > > The Twinkie thang---no one said "binge on Twinkies" but you.
> Forbidding
>>> > > somethin---even for their own good---only backfires.
>>> > >
>>> > > Better is to discss the pros and cons and let them make
> decisions (AND
>>> > > acceptingthose choices as OK!!!). Even eating *only* Twinkies
> for a
>>> > > week won'tkill a person or even permanently damage him. But I
> doubt
>>> > > that would be the choice anyone would make if given a wide choice
> of
>>> > > fod options. Some kids seem to thrive on nothing but boxed mac &
>>> >> cheese and chicken fingers. But not forever---in a healthy home
> wth
>>> > > lots of choices. *Eventually* he'll branch out---if his eating
> habits
>>> > > are accepted and he's given time to eplore food in his own time.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > Is this how people on this list normally treat each other?
>>> >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > Meaning....will things psted that are contrary to an open,
> respectful,
>>> > > trusting paren/child relationship be questioned? You betcha!
>>> > >
>>> > > If you are looking for a list that will support early
> interventins,
>>> > > I'm afraid this really won't be a good one for you. LOT of the
>>> > > problems with schools (and in our society, in genera) stem from
> the
>>> > > idea that we want everyone doing everthing at the same rate as
>>> > > everyone else---and FASTER/SOONERis BETTER. You won't find
> unschoolers
>>> > > promoting that.
>>> > >
>>> accepts that everyone grows and learns at different
> rates.
>>> > > It's not that we won't ever pursue aid, it's just that we will
> give a >>> > > child more time to develop and accept that he may not be "on
> time"
>>> > > developmentally. We use the word "yet" a lot. <g>
>>> > >
>>> > > ~Kelly
>>> > >
>>> > > Kelly Lovejoy
>>> > > Conference Coordinator
>>> > > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
>>> > > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.2. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > Posted by: "Barbara Perez" barbara.perez@... babaraperez228
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:25 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> >> Joyce,
>>> > > I appreciate your statements about protecting children, and abou
> a single
>>> > > experience not being "deadly" to anyone, and especially about
> using specific
>>> > > examples rather than vague ones.
>>> > > So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my experience
>with
>>> > > children who had not only not been unschooled from birth, but who
> had been
>>> > > through VERY different parenting before comin to me as foster
> children. Had
>>> > > I been able to unschool them right aay (I obviously wasn't,
> since the state
>>> > > legally had custody, they even hd to attend public school, and
> my hands
>>> > > were clearly tied by the agencas to what would have been
> considered
>>> > > appropriate parenting egarding many issues) I *may* have been
> able to take
>>> > > the absolutely scary but infinitely freeing plunge of providing
> them with
>>> > > everything hey hadn't been provided in terms of safety and
> guidance, while
>>> > > at the sme time supporting them making their own decisions on
> everything
>>> > > from eting to how to spend their time to every other decision in
> their
>>> > > lives Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get
> there very
>>> > > very gradally instead. But in the course of doing that, and in
> hindsight, I
>>> > > came dout that the "radical" approach that you and others on
> this board
>>> > > adocate would have been in their best interest. In fact, I came
> to
>>> > > understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence
> and freedom
>>> > > as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most
> sensible
>>> > > option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
>>> > > pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and possibly
> for some
>>> > > others. After all, many children develop negative habits on their
> own, for
>>> > > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the pents not
> having
>>> > > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my
> point about
>>> > > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
> and healthy
>>> > > ones - do you? And I also believe that we as humans can be
> creatures of
>>> > > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established, it
> takes more
>>> > > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why would
> it be so
>>> > > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit
> smoking,
>>> > > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
>>> > > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society? To
> oversimplify (and I
>>> > >do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I
> believe this is
>>> > > because established habits die hard. So, back to parenting,
> directly related
>>> > > to protecting my child from harm, besides the short-term "who's
> going to die
>>> > > from this?" question, which I agree with you is useful, I believe
> another
>>> > > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of habits
> do I want
>>> > > them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a
> stage where
>>> > > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for
> the same
>>> > > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating boxed
> macaroni
>>> > > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
> scavenging
>>> > > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in another)
> will not be
>>> > > able to utgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those
> specific
>>> > > examples you ere asking for), but I do believe that children
> need the
>>> > > guidance of a parent tolead them away from those negative
> habits, and
>>> > > leading them away sometimesmight take a bit more than just
> providing
>>> > > alternatives. Yes, mine ar extreme cases, but I point them out
> because I've
>>> > > heard some people on this ad another board say "that just
> doesn't happen"
>>> > > in real life, when I actuallyhave seen specific kids in not even
> as extreme
>>> > > cases as mine, but simply inpermissive parenting situations (not
> from
>>> > > unschoolers at all, on the contray, permissive in the sense that
> were
>>> > > bordering on neglect) developing what Iconsider to be very
> unhealthy habits
>>> > > in terms of their basic physical needs. 've seen kids become
> obese at a
>>> > > young age clearly not because of soe genetic problem but due to
> the
>>> > > availability of highly processed high caloryfoods in the house
> and nothing
>>> > > else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and
> nothing else.
>>> > > This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my
> temperament was such
>>> > > at a youg age that I probably would have been much happier to
> munch away on
>>> > > high-carb fods while reading book after book on the couch, I did
> get
>>> > > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of
> physical
>>> > > activity (which is probably why we ent camping every summer even
> though my
>>> > > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules about
> mealtimes
>>> > > and limits on snacks,etc. I have seen the argument about that
> kind of
>>> > > "infringement on a chil's freedom" actually causing problems
> later in life,
>>> > > and speaking of heory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
> theory...but
>>> > > what I see in my own life is the opposite: When I think of how
> hard my
>>> > > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as an
> adult that
>>> > > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy life.
> Is there
>>> > > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on this
> board who
>>> > > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives,
> not in spite
>>> > > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME
> degree of
>>> > > rules, as most of my generatio were) but because of it?
>>> > > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'mdefinitely
> not
>>> > > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a hild life.
> I'm
>>> > > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I se "all or
> nothing"
>>> > > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balnced
> reasoning),
>>> > > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pedulum doeth swing"
> kind of
>>> > > way -kwim?
>>> > >
>>> > > On Mon, Apr 21,008 at 2:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > >
>>>> > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > > As a parent, when a child tha doesn't know better wants
>>>>> > > > > something that I know will beharmful to them,
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Kids want us to protect them fromharm. It would be a betrayal
> of
>>>> > > > their trust if we stoodby and let them get hurt. If my husband
> stood
>>>> > > > by while I cut my finger off with a chain saw, I'd be pretty
> pissed!
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > The issue is what the definition of "harmfu" is. Some parents
> draw
>>>> > > > the harmful line at Twinkies and TV and "too much" computer and
> R-
>>>> > > > rate movies and advertising and sugar and meat and more than
> one
>>> > > > cookie ...
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > A good question to ask, not as a hand tying rle but as an aid
> as
>>>> > > > someone is making the transition from no to yes, is, "Who's
> going to
>>>> > > > die?"
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > So, what harm are youtalking about? Real life examples are more
>>>> > > > useful than vagueness.
>>>> > >
>>>>> > > > > I think that is a terrific
>>>>> > > > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and
> that
>>>> > > > > not all
>>>>> > > > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world arecreated equal.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > We should be discussing the world as w go along in life not
> grasping
>>>> > > > at teachable moments. Too often "teahable moments" is a parent
>>>> > > > internally saying "You're wrong. I'm rght. I need you to see
> the
>>>> > > > right way."
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > If my daghter comes for a second bowl of ice cream she'd
> appreciae
>>>> > > > me saying "We're eating in 15 minutes." Then she can use the
>>>> > > information to make a more informed choice. As part of her
> decision
>>>> > > making, she might ask what we're having. :-) The right answer is
>>>> > > > whateve she decides, not what I think she should do. Part of
> living
>>>> > > > together, she will have gathered the nutritional value of food
> but
>>>> > > > even if she decides she'd rather have more ice cream than
> dinner,
>>>> > > > it's not a forever decision where this one experience will kill
> her
>>>> > > > or where forever after she'll decide to have ice cream instead
> of
>>>> > > > dinner. She can use the freedom and experience to assess when
> it's
>>>> > > > right fr *her* to have something other than dinner.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Welearn best with the freedom to explore. Part of that freedom
> is
>>>>> > > trying things out to see what happens *to us*. Part of that
> fredom
>>>> > > > is the freedom to put up with the bad parts of somethng for a
> while
>>>> > > > to get the good parts.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > If child is unhappy and feels stuck in a place better than
> saying no
>>>> > > > to what they're doing is to expand their world so there is more
> to
>>>> > > > choose from. Help tem find something else rather than make
> them do>>>> > > > something else.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > But, again, without a specific example, that's only vaguely
> helpful.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Joyce
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > [Non-text portons of this message have been removed]
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> _________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.3. Re: "delayed" 8-month-ld was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > Posted by: "Barbara Perez" barbaa.perez@... barbaraperez228
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:25 am ((PDT))
> > >
>>> > > Whew, an addendum to apologize for not having broken up my etany
> into
>>> > > paragraphs!
>>> > > It's late and I pushed "send" too soon!
>>> > >
>>> > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:3 AM, Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>>> > > Joyce,
>>>> > > > I appreciate your statements about protecting childen, and
> about a single
>>>> > > > experience not being "deadly" toanyone, and especially about
> using specific
>>>> > > > examples rather than vague ones.
>>>> > > > So maybe the difference in where I'm coming from is my
> experience with
>>>> > > > children wo had not only not been unschooled from birth, but
> who had been
>>>> > > > through VERY different parenting before comig to me as foster
> children. Had
>>>> > > > I been able to unschol them right away (I obviously wasn't,
> since the state
>>>> > > > legally had custoy, they even had to attend public school, and
> my hands
>>>> > > > were clearly tied by the agency as to what would have been
> considered
>>>> > > > appropriate arenting regarding many issues) I *may* have been
> able to take
>>>> > > > the absoutely scary but infinitely freeing plunge of providing
> them with
>>>> > > > everything they hadn't been provided in terms of sfety and
> guidance, while
>>>> > > > at the same time supporting them making ther own decisions on
> everything
>>>> > > > from eating to how to spend thei time to every other decision
> in their
>>>> > > > lives. Clearly I didn't havethat choice, so my goal was to get
> there very
>>>> > > > very gradually intead. But in the course of doing that, and in
> hindsight, I
>>>> > > > came doubtthat the "radical" approach that you and others on
> this oard
>>>> > > > advocate would have been in their best interest. In fact, I
> came o
>>>> > > > understand and believe that a gradual approach to independence
> an freedom
>>>> > > > as the child gets older and learns things, COULD be the most
> snsible
>>>> > > > option, if not for "all" children (because I don't tend to make
>>>> > > > pronouncements like that) at least for "my" children and
> possibly for some
>>>> > > > others. After all, many children develop negative habits on
> their own, for
>>>> > > > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not
> having
>>>> > > > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to my
> point about
>>>> > > > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
> and healthy
>>>> > > > ones - do you? And I also believe that we as humans can be
> creatures of
>>>> > > > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established,
> it takes more
>>>> > > > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why
> would it be so
>>>> > > > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to quit
> smoking,
>>>> > > > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
>>>> > > > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society? To
> oversimplify (and I
>>>> > > > do realize it's more complex than that, but bear with me) I
> believe this is
>>>> > > > because established habits die hard. So, back to parenting,
> directly related
>>>> > > > to protecting my child from harm, besides the short-term "who's
> going to die
>>>> > > > from this?" question, which I agree with you is useful, I
> believe another
>>>> > > > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of
> habits do I want
>>>> > > > them to form?" because children have the luxury of being at a
> stage where
>>>> > > > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for
> the same
>>>> > > > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating
> boxed macaroni
>>>> > > > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
> scavenging
>>>> > > > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in
> another) will not be
>>>> > > > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those
> specific
>>>> > > > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children
> need the
>>>> > > > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative
> habits, and
>>>> > > > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just
> providing
>>>> > > > alternatives. Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out
> because I've
>>>> > > > heard some people on this and another board say "that just
> doesn't happen"
>>>> > > > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not
> even as extreme
>>>> > > > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations
> (not from
>>>> > > > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense
> that were
>>>> > > > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very
> unhealthy habits
>>>> > > > in terms of their basic physical needs. I've seen kids become
> obese at a
>>>> > > > young age clearly not because of some genetic problem but due
> to the
>>>> > > > availability of highly processed high calory foods in the house
> and nothing
>>>> > > > else, combined with the availability of sedentary activity and
> nothing else.
>>>> > > > This is a pet peeve of mine probably because, while my
> temperament was such
>>>> > > > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to
> munch away on
>>>> > > > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I
> did get
>>>> > > > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of
> physical
>>>> > > > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer
> even though my
>>>> > > > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules
> about mealtimes
>>>> > > > and limits on snacks, etc. I have seen the argument about that
> kind of
>>>> > > > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems
> later in life,
>>>> > > > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
> theory...but
>>>> > > > what I see in my own life is the opposite: When I think of how
> hard my
>>>> > > > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as
> an adult that
>>>> > > > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy
> life. Is there
>>>> > > > anyone out there not with me on this? Are there no adults on
> this board who
>>>> > > > can say they "turned out alright" in some area of their lives,
> not in spite
>>>> > > > of the way they were parented (if they were parented with SOME
> degree of
>>>> > > > rules, as most of my generation were) but because of it?
>>>> > > > Again, I do believe in unschooling principles and I'm
> definitely not
>>>> > > > advocating excessive and uncalled for regulation of a child
> life. I'm
>>>> > > > playing devil's advocate so to speak, only when I see "all or
> nothing"
>>>> > > > reasoning about parenting (vs proactive, careful, balanced
> reasoning),
>>>> > > > which just makes me shrug in an "oh my, the pendulum doeth
> swing" kind of
>>>> > > > way -kwim?
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll
> <jfetteroll@...>
>>>> > > > wrote:
>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better wants
>>>>>> > > > > > something that I know will be harmful to them,
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > Kids want us to protect them from harm. It would be a
> betrayal of
>>>>> > > > > their trust if we stood by and let them get hurt. If my
> husband stood
>>>>> > > > > by while I cut my finger off with a chain saw, I'd be pretty
> pissed!
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > The issue is what the definition of "harmful" is. Some
> parents draw
>>>>> > > > > the harmful line at Twinkies and TV and "too much" computer
> and R-
>>>>> > > > > rated movies and advertising and sugar and meat and more than
> one
>>>>> > > > > cookie ...
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > A good question to ask, not as a hand tying rule but as an
> aid as
>>>>> > > > > someone is making the transition from no to yes, is, "Who's
> going to
>>>>> > > > > die?"
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > So, what harm are you talking about? Real life examples are
> more
>>>>> > > > > useful than vagueness.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > I think that is a terrific
>>>>>> > > > > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment,
> and that
>>>>>> > > > > > not all
>>>>>> > > > > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created
> equal.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > We should be discussing the world as we go along in life not
> grasping
>>>>> > > > > at teachable moments. Too often "teachable moments" is a
> parent
>>>>> > > > > internally saying "You're wrong. I'm right. I need you to see
> the
>>>>> > > > > right way."
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > If my daughter comes for a second bowl of ice cream she'd
> appreciate
>>>>> > > > > me saying "We're eating in 15 minutes." Then she can use the
>>>>> > > > > information to make a more informed choice. As part of her
> decision
>>>>> > > > > making, she might ask what we're having. :-) The right answer
> is
>>>>> > > > > whatever she decides, not what I think she should do. Part of
> living
>>>>> > > > > together, she will have gathered the nutritional value of
> food but
>>>>> > > > > even if she decides she'd rather have more ice cream than
> dinner,
>>>>> > > > > it's not a forever decision where this one experience will
> kill her
>>>>> > > > > or where forever after she'll decide to have ice cream
> instead of
>>>>> > > > > dinner. She can use the freedom and experience to assess when
> it's
>>>>> > > > > right for *her* to have something other than dinner.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > We learn best with the freedom to explore. Part of that
> freedom is
>>>>> > > > > trying things out to see what happens *to us*. Part of that
> freedom
>>>>> > > > > is the freedom to put up with the bad parts of something for
> a while
>>>>> > > > > to get the good parts.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > If child is unhappy and feels stuck in a place better than
> saying no
>>>>> > > > > to what they're doing is to expand their world so there is
> more to
>>>>> > > > > choose from. Help them find something else rather than make
> them do
>>>>> > > > > something else.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > But, again, without a specific example, that's only vaguely
> helpful.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > Joyce
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.4. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:21 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > From: Barbara Perez <barbara.perez@...>
>>> > >
>>>> > > >Help doesn't involve deciding what and when other people need to
> learn
>>> > > something.<
>>> > >
>>> > > I disagree. As a parent, when a child that doesn't know better
> wants
>>> > > something that I know will be harmful to them, I think that is a
>>> > > terrific
>>> > > time for them to learn about moderation, and discernment, and
> that not
>>> > > all
>>> > > foods/activities/etc in our big happy world are created equal.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > And how would you go about that? What things would you consider
>>> > > "harmful"? What food/activities have more value than others? How
> would
>>> > > you go about stopping a child from eating/doing something? How
> about
>>> > > when he has a car? When he's at a friend's house?
>>> > >
>>> > > When you say, "that is a prefect time for them to learn about
>>> > > moderation..."----what does that mean to you?
>>> > >
>>> > > It's easy to stop them as three year olds. It's a whole different
>>> > > matter when they're 16. How can one person decide what and when
> another
>>> > > person needs to learn something?
>>> > >
>>> > > -==-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > And no, I don't believe it's necessary for a
>>> > > good unschooler to say "yes" unquestioningly to EVERYTHING the
> child
>>> > > suddenly wants.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > *I* don't think *amything* should be done "unquestioningly." *I*
>>> > > question just about everything. And I encourage my boys to do the
> same.
>>> > >
>>> > > But I say "yes" or an equivalent to "yes" a lot.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > You can be an unschooler that presents the aspects of those
>>> > > choices that the child may not have thought about, deciding for
> them not
>>> > > when they'll learn it, but when they'll be exposed to a valuable
> fact or
>>> > > opinion that they might not have otherwise been exposed to.
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > You seem to be taking a "teacher" role instead of a *partner*
> role.
>>> > >
>>> > > I give A LOT of advice and and expose them to A LOT of
> things/ideas.
>>> > > But my goal is NOT to teach a lesson or tell them what to do.
> It's to
>>> > > make sure they have as much info as absolutely possible, NOT make
> the
>>> > > decisions *for* them. I don't have that kind of control---nor do
> I want
>>> > > it.
>>> > >
>>> > > To give a real life current example: my 20 year old son wants to
>>> > > hitchhike. TOTALLY freaks me out---and he knows it. And I have
> told him
>>> > > that I will give him a gas card and make sure his car is always
> in
>>> > > tip-top shape. I will do whatever *I* can to make it unnecessary
> to
>>> > > hitchhike. He *stills* wants to do it. And I know I can't stop
> him. I
>>> > > just want him safe, but I cannot MAKE him. I can only give him as
> much
>>> > > info as possible and hope he makes good choices ---or is just
> lucky!
>>> > >
>>> > > Am I uncomfortable? You betcha! And there's no guarantee he ever
> *will*
>>> > > hitchhike. It's just a desire now. He may "outgrow" it---or
> decide not
>>> > > to. But he may live safely "on the road" for years.
>>> > >
>>> > > The point is: it's not an example of "top-down" decision. We work
>>> > > together. I'll support his choice---even as uncomfortable as I am
> with
>>> > > it. He doesn't *want* me to be uncomfortable or frightened
> either, so
>>> > > that weighs in his decision-making. But ultimately, it's
> Cameron's
>>> > > choice, and I have to be OK with that.
>>> > >
>>> > > -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > Something as
>>> > > simple as a true story: "I once ate X Twinkies and then threw up,
> didn't
>>> > > want to see one or smell one for months!"
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > *IF* it's TRUE.
>>> > >
>>> > > And would the child be able to make that same choice? Eat "x"
> Twinkies?
>>> > > And what if he doesn't throw up?
>>> > >
>>> > > I ate a large cucumber salad once and threw up and didn't want to
> see
>>> > > or smell cucumbers for months. Does that make cucumbers bad? Does
> that
>>> > > make my story valuable?
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-==-
>>> > >
>>> > > So back to the 8 month old. If the parent decided that the play
> therapy
>>> > > was
>>> > > a positive thing for the reasons she explained, I don't see how
> it's
>>> > > "against unschooling" for her to have done so.
>>> > >
>>> > > -==-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > As soon as a parent sees her child as something that needs to be
>>> > > "fixed"---especially if it is a developmental issue---and
> ESPECIALLY if
>>> > > it's something that has a LARGE window of acceptable milestones,
> it can
>>> > > become an issue with accepting Where The Child Is Now. It's OK to
> be
>>> > > "behind" in some things. It's OK to be "ahead" in some things.
> It's OK
>>> > > to be "average." But in unschooling, we're not comparing our
> children
>>> > > to other kids. They are who and what and where they ARE.
>>> > >
>>> > > Popping labels on them like "delayed" can be harmful and should
> be
>>> > > avoided. He just IS who he IS. I can't imagine any stranger could
> come
>>> > > up with any kind of "speech therapy" that would be anything any
>>> > > attentive parent wouldn't employ in day to day interactions with
> her
>>> > > eight month old infant. Just like I can't imagine that any
> teacher
>>> > > could come up with any kind of "reading therapy" any attentive
> parent
>>> > > wouldn't employ in day to day interactions with her child.
>>> > >
>>> > > The spectrum is just *too* wide to say that "strategies" must be
>>> > > considered---much less, *used*----at such a young age.
>>> > >
>>> > > ~Kelly
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.5. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > Posted by: "Jodi Bezzola" jodibezzola@... jodibezzola
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:41 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > > ~~We often have to pull our fears out and scrutinize them. That's
> uncomfortable work for many people. It's *much* easier to go with the
> fear and do something "just incase". But
>>> > > this list isn't for promoting ideas to mollify fears. It's for
> dragging fears out kicking and screaming into the light of day ;-)~~
>>> > >
>>> > > After having been on this list for awhile, I can so relate to
> all you new members who come on board and start posting. I think
> many of us can say that when we were new here we felt our emails were
> being "attacked". I have come to see that this is a place where
> everything is questioned, discussed, agreed/disagreed with (in the
> light of radical unschooling), and it's not *personal*. For me the
> challenge came when I took what was said to be about *me* and it
> isn't about that, it's about supporting radical unschooling
> principles. I have come to appreciate this *hugely*, but it didn't
> happen overnight. It all triggered me because it was the *truth*.
> Ever heard the saying "the truth will set you free but first it'll
> piss you off?". That was my experience.
>>> > >
>>> > > I have massive fears that since I'm not limiting my girls'
> sugar intake, they will have big challenges with it like I did. I
> have to remind myself (sometimes hourly!) that *they are not me*.
> Sugar was completely restricted when I was a child, which manifested
> as me at 5 years of age stealing money from my parents, crossing a
> very busy highway, so I could get to a store that sold what I wanted,
> at 20 years of age as an out of control bulemic, and at 41 years of
> age as one who is still struggling with weight/body image and
> periodically obsessed with all things sugar.
>>> > >
>>> > > What a gift it would have been to have one of my parents
> say "yes" and let me figure out for myself what felt good for *me*,
> not some arbitrary rule some doctor came up with. My own internal
> process was completely obliterated by the overwhelming desire to have
> what I was told I couldn't have even one morsel of.
>>> > >
>>> > > So...inspite of all this, I *still* have fear about what my
> girls' experience will be, which manifests in a desire to limit them,
> which I already *know* doesn't work!!!
>>> > >
>>> > > Coming to embrace radical unschooling has meant a gift of
> freedom for my children, and extremely "uncomfortable work" for *me*.
>>> > >
>>> > > Jodi
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ---------------------------------
>>> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
> Mobile. Try it now.
>>> > >
>>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.6. Re: Truth WAS: "delayed" 8-month-old
>>> > > Posted by: "kbcdlovejo@..." kbcdlovejo@... kellyinsc
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:43 am ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
>>> > >
>>> > > It all triggered me because it was the *truth*. Ever heard the
>>> > > saying "the truth will set you free but first it'll piss you
> off?".
>>> > >
>>> > > -=-=-=-=-
>>> > >
>>> > > I have the bumper sticker. <G>
>>> > >
>>> > > ~Kelly
>>> > >
>>> > > Kelly Lovejoy
>>> > > Conference Coordinator
>>> > > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
>>> > > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Messages in this topic (44)
>>> > >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
>>> > > 2.7. Re: "delayed" 8-month-old was: Book Recommendations
>>> > > Posted by: "Joyce Fetteroll" jfetteroll@... jfetteroll
>>> > > Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:43 pm ((PDT))
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Barbara Perez wrote:
>>>> > > > Clearly I didn't have that choice, so my goal was to get there
> very
>>>> > > > very gradually instead.
>>> > >
>>> > > A couple inches down, on the home page of my website, in bold and
> red
>>> > > so no one can miss it, is:
>>>> > > > Don't drop all your parenting rules at once. Just say "Yes!"
> more.
>>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > > When kids are led to believe that control = love, removing all
>>> > > control and rules can feel like "I give up. I don't care about
> you
>>> > > anymore."
>>> > >
>>>> > > > But in the course of doing that, and in hindsight, I
>>>> > > > came doubt that the "radical" approach that you and others on
> this
>>>> > > > board
>>>> > > > advocate would have been in their best interest.
>>> > >
>>> > > But your conclusion was drawn from kids who weren't always
> unschooled.
>>> > >
>>> > > When someone comes to the list seeking advice about the behavior
> of a
>>> > > child who exhibits some kind of excessive behavior -- anger,
>>> > > overindulgence, avoidance of something healthy -- it's helpful
> to
>>> > > know that they were up to that point controlled. (And someone
> will
>>> > > ask! You can usually tell ;-)
>>> > >
>>>> > > > After all, many children develop negative habits on their own,
> for
>>>> > > > whatever set of circumstances, including simply the parents not
> having
>>>> > > > discovered unschooling from the start. And that brings me to
> my
>>>> > > > point about
>>>> > > > habits. I do believe there is such things as unhealthy habits,
> and
>>>> > > > healthy
>>>> > > > ones - do you?
>>> > >
>>> > > Of course. The big huge question -- and the big huge difference
>>> > > between traditional approaches and mindful parenting -- is
> *why*?
>>> > > Traditional parenting looks at behavior and seeks a fix. Mindful
>>> > > parenting sees the behavior as a reaction to something in the
> child's
>>> > > life.
>>> > >
>>> > > We can't always know why, though. But it's helpful to realize
> that
>>> > > behavior is a reaction to *something*. It's a communication
> that's
>>> > > saying "Something's wrong. And I'm trying to fix it." Sometimes
> they
>>> > > pick the wrong method.
>>> > >
>>> > > Second, and it's a big second, "bad habits" are often reactions
> to
>>> > > stress. Trying to stop the child from the action they're using
> to
>>> > > relieve their stress can increase the stress. The focus should be
> on
>>> > > getting the stress out of the child's life, not the child. The
> focus
>>> > > should be on helping the child explore other ways to relieve
> stress.
>>> > > (Since we can't get rid of all stress. Life has stress. But at
> least
>>> > > we aren't forcing the huge stress of school on them!)
>>> > >
>>> > > Third, if it's a child recovering from control or school, what
> looks
>>> > > like a "bad habit" (say months of TV watching and video game
>>> > > watching) can be their way of decompressing. It's more helpful
> to
>>> > > come here and ask what people's experiences are instead of
> looking at
>>> > > a behavior and drawing conclusions from it.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > And I also believe that we as humans can be creatures of
>>>> > > > habit and that once those behavioral patterns are established,
> it
>>>> > > > takes more
>>>> > > > than freedom and information to change them, otherwise why
> would it
>>>> > > > be so
>>>> > > > hard for millions of well-informed, clearly free adults to
> quit
>>>> > > > smoking,
>>>> > > > overeating, depriving themselves of sleep, and so many other
>>>> > > > self-destructive behaviors that plague our society?
>>> > >
>>> > > How many of them were unschooled and mindfully parented?
>>> > >
>>> > > This is similar to the question that pops up occasionally about
>>> > > mindful parenting and saying "yes": What if your child wants to
> use
>>> > > drugs? Would you just buy them for him? (Asked, of course,
>>> > > sarcastically! ;-)
>>> > >
>>> > > The question assumes that all kids, regardless of parenting and
>>> > > childhood, are the same. When kids reach the teen years, unless
>>> > > you're lucky, they will want to try drugs. The only thing that
> keeps
>>> > > them from using drugs is strong parental control until they're
> old
>>> > > enough to make intelligent choices.
>>> > >
>>> > > Just isn't true! (If it were, all unschooled and mindfully
> parented
>>> > > kids would be drug fiends! ;-)
>>> > >
>>> > > I think a far more true statement than we are "creatures of
> habit" is
>>> > > that we can pick some bizarre ways to relieve stress, ways that
> put a
>>> > > band-aid on it, but don't get to the source of it. When I was in
>>> > > school, I watched a lot of TV after school and on weekends. The
>>> > > summer after my freshman year of college, I practically parked
> myself
>>> > > in front of HBO and watched movies all day. (I estimated I
> watched
>>> > > Monty Python and the Holy Grail 37 times that summer ;-) And I
> didn't
>>> > > even get it when I first started watching! I just needed to
>>> > > decompress. It *looked* like a bad habit.
>>> > >
>>> > > When people have ongoing stress that they can't (or don't
> believe
>>> > > they can) change, and their choice of stress relief only helps
> ease
>>> > > them for the evening, they're going to keep doing it. It's going
> to
>>> > > look like a bad habit. But it's really a reaction to stress.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > I believe another
>>>> > > > useful question to ask on a regular basis is "what sort of
> habits
>>>> > > > do I want
>>>> > > > them to form?"
>>> > >
>>> > > But *why* are they developing habits in the first place? Get to
> the
>>> > > root first.
>>> > >
>>> > > I think your assumption that we're creatures of habit is false.
> I
>>> > > think we're creatures in need of stress relief! ;-) So the need
> is to
>>> > > relieve the stress first and foremost.
>>> > >
>>> > > And that's why real examples of real kids are more useful for
>>> > > discussion. Real kids have real reasons for what they do.
>>> > >
>>> > > Some habits *are* useful. It's useful to find ways to minimize
> the
>>> > > yuckiness of teeth brushing until teeth brushing becomes a
> habit,
>>> > > until the child can do it automatically and can tune out the
>>> > > annoyance of it.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > because children have the luxury of being at a stage where
>>>> > > > habits in many areas of their lives are just being formed for
> the
>>>> > > > same
>>>> > > > time. See, I'm NOT saying that a child that grew up eating
> boxed
>>>> > > > macaroni
>>>> > > > and cheese to the exclusion of anything else (in one case) or
>>>> > > > scavenging
>>>> > > > from the trash or shop-lifting groceries to survive (in
> another)
>>>> > > > will not be
>>>> > > > able to outgrow those behaviors (now we're getting to those
> specific
>>>> > > > examples you were asking for), but I do believe that children
> need the
>>>> > > > guidance of a parent to lead them away from those negative
> habits, and
>>>> > > > leading them away sometimes might take a bit more than just
> providing
>>>> > > > alternatives.
>>> > >
>>> > > But they weren't always unschooled, always mindfully parented
> kids,
>>> > > were they?
>>> > >
>>> > > Yes, the process *is* different for kids recovering from control
> and
>>> > > poor home lives.
>>> > >
>>> > > Almost always, within someone's question, there are clues (even
> if
>>> > > they don't come out and say it), that the child is recovering
> from
>>> > > control or some kind of abuse. The child's behavior is often a
> tip
>>> > > off. Or the way the poster phrases their problem. The advice will
> be
>>> > > different for them than for someone who has always unschooled.
>>> > >
>>> > > Without those clues, the best advice for *this* list is to help
>>> > > parents give their children trust and freedom.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > Yes, mine are extreme cases, but I point them out because I've
>>>> > > > heard some people on this and another board say "that just
> doesn't
>>>> > > > happen"
>>> > >
>>> > > It doesn't happen with always unschooled kids who trust their
> parents
>>> > > are there to help them.
>>> > >
>>> > > If parenting made no difference in how a child reacts to the
> world
>>> > > and the choices they make, then we should all just control them
> from
>>> > > the start. Make them seen and not heard. It would be a lot more
>>> > > convenient.
>>> > >
>>> > > LIfe experience, how their treated, whether they can trust that
>>> > > someone cares enough to spend time on helping them get what's
>>> > > important to them *does* make a difference in how children
> behave.
>>> > > And always unschooled, mindfully parented child is way less
> unlikely
>>> > > to use drugs, still be sitting on their parents' couch at 25
> playing
>>> > > video games and all the other things parents fear
> that "indulgence"
>>> > > causes.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > in real life, when I actually have seen specific kids in not
> even
>>>> > > > as extreme
>>>> > > > cases as mine, but simply in permissive parenting situations
> (not from
>>>> > > > unschoolers at all, on the contrary, permissive in the sense
> that were
>>>> > > > bordering on neglect) developing what I consider to be very
>>>> > > > unhealthy habits
>>> > >
>>> > > And your conclusion is that they developed bad habits because
> they
>>> > > didn't have help stopping them.
>>> > >
>>> > > My conclusion is that they developed bad habits because they
> didn't
>>> > > have someone they trusted to help them get what they wanted, or
> had
>>> > > someone maintaining the stress in their lives instead of stopping
> it
>>> > > or helping them find useful ways to relieve it.
>>> > >
>>> > > Since we have a lot of parents here who have raised children
> without
>>> > > controlling, without analyzing their kids for bad habits -- but
>>> > > watching for stress to either relieve the stress or help them
> find
>>> > > ways to deal with stress -- my theory more closely resembles the
>>> > > lives of unschooled kids than yours does.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > while my temperament was such
>>>> > > > at a young age that I probably would have been much happier to
>>>> > > > munch away on
>>>> > > > high-carb foods while reading book after book on the couch, I
> did get
>>>> > > > enticed/pushed/encouraged by my parents towards some sort of
> physical
>>>> > > > activity (which is probably why we went camping every summer
> even
>>>> > > > though my
>>>> > > > mom wasn't keen on it) and why there were definitely rules
> about
>>>> > > > mealtimes
>>>> > > > and limits on snacks, etc.
>>> > >
>>> > > A big important point is that 1) there's no way of knowing what
> you
>>> > > would have done and 2) you were schooled and your behavior was
> warped
>>> > > by recovery from the stress of school.
>>> > >
>>> > > I watched a lot of TV (as I said) while in school and while
> working.
>>> > > Now without the stress of school and work, I watch little.
>>> > >
>>> > > You *can't* extrapolate from your stressed behavior to what you
> would
>>> > > have done if given freedom. That's probably one of the hardest
> things
>>> > > for people to imagine as they're trying to get a handle on
>>> > > unschooling and mindful parenting. They only know the reactions
> of
>>> > > people who grew up as schooled stressed children. They *think*
>>> > > they're familiar with the spectrum of people's behavior, but
> what
>>> > > they really know is the behavior of people who are schooled and
>>> > > stressed. It *does* make a difference. A huge difference.
>>> > >
>>> > > From unschoolers experience with kids raised without the stress
> of
>>> > > school, kids behavior is *very* different. They *don't* make the
> same
>>> > > choices as kids in school and kids who are conventionally
> parented.
>>> > > They don't have the same stresses those kids do. They have
> support
>>> > > for the stresses that are a natural part of life.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > I have seen the argument about that kind of
>>>> > > > "infringement on a child's freedom" actually causing problems
> later
>>>> > > > in life,
>>> > >
>>> > > WIth unschooled kids? With kids who have been given freedom and
>>> > > parenting mindfully?
>>> > >
>>> > > If the parenting makes no difference then everyone here should
> stop
>>> > > parenting mindfully because it's a lot more difficult -- at least
> in
>>> > > the short run -- to be working with kids rather than just
> handing
>>> > > down our decision.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > and speaking of theory vs. specifics, I can agree with it in
>>>> > > > theory...but
>>>> > > > what I see in my own life is the opposite:
>>> > >
>>> > > But you weren't unschooled. You weren't mindfully parenting.
>>> > >
>>>> > > > When I think of how hard my
>>>> > > > parents worked on trying to teach me healthy habits, to me as
> an
>>>> > > > adult that
>>>> > > > is more of a motivator, not less, to try and lead a healthy
> life.
>>> > >
>>> > > And as a child?
>>> > >
>>> > > You *can't* know what decisions you'd be making had you been
> parented
>>> > > differently. You can only guess. You can only guess based on
> nothing
>>> > > but experience with people who have *not* been parented mindfully
> and
>>> > > not been unschooled. You have no experience with hundreds of
>>> > > mindfully parented unschoolers. I'm not saying that in a mean
> way.
>>> > > I'm just saying there's a reason a control group in an experiment
> is
>>> > > important. Without a control group -- in this case a group of
> people
>>> > > without school in their lives -- no one can know what behavior
> is
>>> > > natural to kids and what behavior is natural to *schooled* and
>>> > > *controlled* kids.
>>> > >
>>> > > Unschoolers *do* know. We know the difference between our kids
>>> > > behavior and choices and how they view the world and the behavior
> of
>>> > > ourselves, the kids we grew up with, the adults we know. We can
> see
>>> > > the <br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)