Claudia

I like your input, Julie :)))) Thanks

Claudia



-------Message original-------

De : [email protected]
Date : 09/16/04 15:20:08
A : [email protected]
Sujet : Re: [unschoolingbasics] help

This is probably going to get me in trouble here but I can't say that I
would just sit and swallow everything if someone (anyone, adults included)
was continually yelling and screaming at me when I was doing my best to try
and help them.

The occassional meltdown or even not so occassional I can do. My 5yo can be
one to go off on people over and over again for the slightest provocation so
I understand where Sheree is coming from.

I think I would do the things I can think of to help out...offering limited
choices to help with decision making, making sure there was cuddle time,
trying to listen through the anger....but if it went on and on, I would
probably remove myself from the situation.

Example: Dan (5) had gotten to where no matter what anyone did if they
weren't reading his mind and knowing just exactly what he wanted done, he
would yell at them, throw things, call them names, etc.. I can usually make
a joke and get him out of it but he was doing it to the other kids in the
family as well. It wasn't fair for the other 5yo to be hit or yelled at
because she did something that was perceived by Dan as a slight of some kind


So I stopped Dan in the beginning of one of his torrents and said "It is ok
to be mad or sad. You can come to me and I will hug you and rub your back
until you feel better but it is absolutely not ok to scream and yell at
people." and I bearhugged him and walked off.

Since then, he comes runnning to me out of the blue a lot and just hugs me
for a minute and says he loves me and runs back off to play. He still has
meltdowns ever so often but he really is trying to use me as a resource.

Just a thought.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] help


Hi Julie,

I have said "what would you like?" because if we don't start with that and
she has something in mind, she gets very angry at us having the nerve to
suggest anything. So that is the first question. If she has nothing in
mind
then she says "I don't know" and I start making suggestions. I always tell
her what I am having first, because she often wants that too and then I
only
have to make one thing. If it is rejected, then I offer other things to
her
as you suggest.

Thanks for the ideas, they confirmed what I was doing in that department
was
ok at least:)

Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Stauffer [mailto:jnjstau@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] help

<<<<And with giving her more choices, she seemed to be less capable of
dealing with them, almost overwhelmed by them (which still might be the
case
I guess)I was thinking of pulling back on that.>>>>

I don't know how you are handling this but open-ended questions can be
overwhelming for young kids, like "what would you like for breakfast?",
particularly kids not used to making those kinds of decisions or that are
currently stressed.

You might try offering her a couple of options and if those don't appeal
to
her, perhaps a couple of more options, like "How about oatmeal or
cheerios?"

Just a thought.

Julie S.


----- Original Message -----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:22 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] help


Robyn,

What a fantastic post, this is exactly what I needed to hear.

I *knew* her behaviour was age appropriate, not pleasant but not
surprising
for her age. I just didn't expect it to feel so personal. I guess that
is
increased by my pregnancy hormones.

I read your post this morning and it energized me for our day. We had a
much
better day and in fact I managed to have more energy and a more positive
approach. She asked me to get her water, when it was inconvenient for me
and
not her, I just did it. The surprise and pleasure in her voice was
noticeable. Did it make her feel special?

She did not speak in an angry or demanding tone so I didn't have to
ignore
it, but perhaps that was because I wasn't so impatient.

Yes I am overwhelmed and feeling a bit resentful. Thank you for
articulating
it because it helped me to see it. My dh, works very hard and in my
opinion,
doesn't do all he could around here to help with the parenting. I don't
expect him to do housework or anything but he goes in fits and spurts in
his
parenting interests and that does add to my stress. Lately however, he
has
been pitching in more without my having to ask and that has helped a lot

He
spends time with her each morning wrestling and playing and then time
with
her again each evening after dinner. This is new and has been very
appreciated. I told him that today and he seemed to appreciate me saying
that and did even more today.

I met with a woman yesterday to come in and help with house stuff after
the
baby comes, but decided we will get her in once a week starting now to
do
house cleaning, laundry, making beds etc. So that is a good decision
that
I
am sure will help.

It is good to hear the indecisiveness is normal too... still frustrating
but
reassuring. It can really get to me, cause I really don't care what
colour
of hair she gives polly pocket when she is playing on the website you
know?
Maybe it is her way of trying to get me involved with what she is doing?

I am breathing... and trying to not expect respect from her... that
seems
harder when you are feeling resentful right? Ok... thank you SO much for
your thoughts on this, it really was so helpful to come downstairs to
read
this this morning, AND to hear it will pass hopefully fairly soon:)

I was beginning to think that this behaviour was a result of our shift
to
unschooling as it was the only big change I could think of that we had
done
recently. And with giving her more choices, she seemed to be less
capable
of
dealing with them, almost overwhelmed by them (which still might be the
case
I guess)I was thinking of pulling back on that.

Anyway, thank you again for your help today,

Sherri-Lee
Need safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] help

<<<Hannah (4.5) has become the most difficult, uncooperative, unpleasant
child
for me to be around and it seems so specific to me. Maybe she is mad at
me.
mad about the baby she has been looking forward to? About my lack of
energy
in the last month?
Situations: unless I give her exactly what she wants when she wants it
she
screams and yells at me "you promised" (even if I didn't), "you have to"

"but I WANNNTTTTT you to/it" etc. Anything I say "no" to is greeted
with
screaming and hollering and yelling and the biggest temper tantrums she
has
ever had>>>>>

If you read some of the Child Development books (eg: "Child Behavior
from
one til ten" or "Your Four Year Old" by Louise Ames) from Gessell
Institute
(and don't read the school preparedness chapters because they are
irrelevant, and ignore the Cry it out sleep suggestions obviously) you
may
be relieved to learn that they consider much of this type of behavior
typical of 4.5 year olds. Whether their suggestions are of any use to
you
would be another matter.

Jayn (4.75) does many, in fact almost all of the same obnoxious
behaviors,
but in your case I would guess that they are being exacerbated by your
very
pregnant situation - both in terms of your emotionally vunerable state,
physical energy limitations, and Hannah's possible regressive reaction
to
the upcoming baby.

<<<< I can't really say yes to everything. I try to say yes often, but
I just can't and won't say yes to every demand of hers. And that is how
they
are issued these days. demands. not asking: "mommy do this!" "mommy I
need
this" "mommy I can't do this" (with the assumption that I will just
*know*
what to do to fix it and then if I go and do something it is the wrong
thing
(no matter what I do) and she screams at me for that too.>>>>

Look really hard at the "no's" you are saying. There is a huge
difference
between "can't" and "won't".

If you can, absolutely ignore the demanding tone of voice and fulfill
the
request cheerfully anyway, which is what I do mostly with Jayn. It does
take
the wind out of the incipient meltdown a lot of the time. Sometimes I
mention in passing that she sounded really demanding or angry to me when
she
spoke, but I never reply in kind to her.

When she has an angry blasting meltdown, I let Jayn's anger just bounce
off
me, like a beach ball you aren't catching - it will get less (or impinge
on
you less). I'm talking about "detachment" from her emotions, NOT
ignoring
her or her requests. Just not allowing her frenzy to get me upset, while
still validating emotions back - "you sound very angry/frustrated". She
will
go on and I will say something very neutral like "What a shame." It
helps
her go through the meltdown, and restore her own balance.

Sometimes I also remind Jayn to take some deep breaths if she is
starting
to
get angry. Sometimes her only relief is still to shriek. One good one
and
she is often better.

<<<She is asking me to do so much more for her too (is this also in
reaction
to
the baby coming?) "mommy get me some water" even though she is standing
with
her cup right beside the water tower and I have just sat down at the
opposite end of the room. Am I really supposed to get up and get that
for
her? Every 10 minutes there is a new demand more food, more water, more
toys
all something I have to do for her, >>>

There is a lot of overwhelm and resentment coming through in your post -
lot's of emphatic negative words. Are you getting enough help with the
day
to day stuff like the housework? Are you getting any support from dh for
your emotional ups and downs as hormones shift? Are you trying to do too
much, when all you want to do is sit and contemplate the new baby? If
you
can find a way to transfer responsibility for everything other than
Hannah
and your own immediate comfort to someone else (a temporary house
cleaning
service? Ordering in dinner? Paying someone to come in and do the
laundry?
Home delivery of groceries?) maybe you won't feel so overwhelmed.

<<<<and yet she has developed and complete
inability to making decisions. She wants me to pick her clothes and then
rejects everything I chose. When I ask her to do it. no she can't make a
decision. She will just say "I am hungry" and I am supposed to mind read
and
know what she wants, because she can't decide, but every thing I suggest
is
rejected. When I give up after I run out of suggestions, we have another
melt down and anger at me and her screaming that she can't decide and I
have
to do it for her. Hell we even had a melt down today because she couldn
t
decide which toys to bring with us to the grocery store and wanted me to
decide for her. She wants me to do all these things, but if I try to
explain
anything to her about anything, she screams at me "I don't want to hear
you
now".>>>>>

This indecisiveness is also a kind of normal development phase with some
personalities, according to what I have read, although she *is*
communicating clearly and definitively when she says she "doesn't want
to
hear you now". Short phrases, not long reasoned explanations, might be
the
solution here. As much as you may want her to understand where you are
coming from, emotionally or intellectually, it shouldn't be her
responsibility to have to do so. She may feel your explaining as an
emotional burden.

One of the things I do with Jayn when she is rejecting all the
possibilities
for say a snack, is just let it go, with "well I don't know dear. What
do
you think?" or "That's all we have." Then I wait it out. Usually she
soon
after comes back with the phrase, "I guess I could have .....". Waiting
(without engaging) for the readiness to decide, with or without the
meltdown
behavior, can seem like an eternity. It really is less time than you
think.


Just because she is screaming that you have to do it for her, doesn't
mean
you actually do have to decide for her. She really won't choose to
starve.

<<<If I go on the phone she starts making noise, after being quiet for
hours,>>>>

Are you interacting with her when she is quietly playing, or only in
response to her getting loud or initiating requests? Jayn sometimes
doesn't
like it when my attention is diverted from her by the phone, but
sometimes
I
just have to stick my finger in my spare ear, momentarily, when it is a
business call for dh (usually just taking a quick message). If she has
been
playing quietly, I sometimes forget that she may be viewing me as an
audience to her fantasy play and sees the phone as an interruption of
our
"conversation". I ask her to please be quiet - I have to say that
usually
she subsides to a point. However I rarely make outgoing calls without
first
negotiating with her for some time to do so.

<<<<<if I start to talk to my dh, she starts to sing loud so we can't
hear
eachother, or talking or screaming about something. If I want to watch a
show, after hours of her watching her shows, she all of a sudden starts
talking and talking out loud about everything possible as loud as
possible.>>>>

Jayn switches the set off repeatedly - so we have stopped engaging in
that
particular battle. Dh goes to watch in the other room. I have just
become
resigned to recording everything I hope to view. Sometimes if I put on a
DVD
for her, I can go to the bedroom and watch TV with dh for a while. In
terms
of interrupting our conversations, it is usually because Jayn is after
his
attention rather than mine. Could your dh give her some intense playing
attention for a while in the evening when you are most drained?

<<<How do I handle this and respect her and me.
Cause I don't feel very respected or respectful right now.>>>>

Breathe and try to stay centered. One thing may be to stop expecting
"respect" from her. The idea behind modeling respectful treatment of her
and
the other family members to each other, is that *eventually* she will
also
behave that kind way automatically and naturally. She is behaving 4.5 at
the
moment. It will pass. Jayn is already less obnoxious than she was three
months ago.

This is going to sound dumb, but try and get some rest, OK?

Robyn L. Coburn



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