dyslexia

sarah hubbard

5 Apr 2008, at 9:43am

I'm just wondering if anyone on here has had a child with dyslexia and as an unschooler how you have dealt with it. We have a child (he's 7) we are pretty sure has it and we trying very hard to not allow him to be pinned with that as a label. He wants desperately to read well and is trying (not with me pushing him), but he gets so deeply frustrated with it and cries. I am finding myself worrying that if we don't find some resolve soon, he is going to be too frustrated and give up. I know in time he will want to read, but my husband has struggled with it most of his life and has just in the last 10 years become a strong reader. I want to offer our child help early on so that he can enjoy the world of books fully. I know there are plenty of other ways out there for him to learn things and I can fully embrace that as I already do, but he WANTS to read and read well, so I'm looking for ideas on strategies to help him in an unschooling manner...

Thanks!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

5 Apr 2008, at 10:10pm

On Apr 5, 2008, at 6:43 AM, sarah hubbard wrote:

> I know there are plenty of other ways out there for him to learn
> things and I can fully embrace that as I already do, but he WANTS to
> read and read well, so I'm looking for ideas on strategies to help
> him in an unschooling manner...

Help him understand that wanting to isn't the same as being ready to.
There are parts of his brain that are still growing. Some people's
brains grow in the area that is used for reading at around 6 to 8
years old, but for some people that happens earlier and some later.
Tell him you can help him with other ways to enjoy books while he's
waiting for his brain to grow. For example, you can get him an ipod
and sign him up for audible.com so he can download books to listen to.
Reassure him that his brain is growing in other skills, right now,

My youngest daughter wanted to read and write in the worst way - she
had two older sisters who read very young and were big readers and
writers and she was really really suffering because reading wasn't
coming quickly or easily to her. She's a very different kind of kid
than they are - she's very physical - athletic. In dance classes she
can't understand how it can take so long for other people to remember
the steps and she can't understand how they can forget them once they
know them.

It helped her a lot that I was totally calm and confident about her
reading. I knew her brain was working in a different way than her
sisters' brains had, and I could see it was going to take longer for
her to work out how to read, but I knew she'd do it eventually.

When she was upset about it, I comforted her and talked to her about
the things she COULD do.

I think if you're "working with him," you might be making it worse for
him. If he's just really not ready, then the work you're doing with
him is fruitless and bound to be frustrating.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dana_burdick

5 Apr 2008, at 10:59pm

I started writing comments of various types, but the same thing kept
coming up in my mind. HE'S SEVEN! Think about it. It is so very
young. The range of ages that children read is very wide. Can you
really know, at seven, that he is dyslexic now or forever? If he is
showing dyslexic tendencies, can you KNOW that his brand will be the
type to interfere with reading?

>I'm just wondering if anyone on here has had a child with dyslexia

and as an

> unschooler how you have dealt with it.

You will be able to align better with unschooling if you don't treat
the label of dyslexia as a special case. Every child has special
needs. Even if we had ten officially diagnosed dyslexic children on
this list, those children's needs would all be very different.
Labels can be slippery things; they can hinder you in seeing a child
for who HE is and what his needs truly are.

Unschooling frees you up to look at your child and see his needs
without label. So what does this look like? Your son is frustrated
with reading. The first question you should ask is why. The second
question you should ask is how can I help reduce his frustration?
You see, the focus is on the frustration, not on the reading. This
allows you to be more creative with a solution. It may look like
you reading to him. It may look like getting books on tape. It may
look like just not being so tense yourself about the whole subject of
reading. Instead of the more traditional route where you are filled
with limiting thoughts like, well I think he's dyslexic and my
husband is dyslexic and I'm unschooling and I'm suppose to do this
some magically correct way. <BWG>

In your post, it sounds like your son _is_ reading but is just not
reading well. Did I understand this correctly? If so, who gets to
decide what reading well looks like? Him? You? Your husband? Friends?
In other words, what factors are really playing into his
frustrations? Babies begin talking with babbling? Do we label them
poor speakers? No, of course not. We accept that as a natural
progression of gaining speech. Maybe you can help him understand
that learning to read is naturally messy and takes time. When his
brain is ready, he WILL read.

-Dana

sarah hubbard

6 Apr 2008, at 8:42am

I think maybe I came across as sounding like I want him to be reading and reading well right now - that is not what I am saying. I am actually very comfortable with the idea that his brain may not be ready and we are trying very hard to not hit him with this label yet until we know for sure. That being said, he CAN read and he actually reads somewhat well, but he told us that the letters get all jumbled and that they look backwards to him (this was completely unprovoked) and that his eyes hurt - all signs of dyslexia - and this is what is frustrating him. Dyslexia is a condition of the brain it isn't something one can outgrow it is something they have to work very hard at controlling and I'm not stressed about it, I just was looking for suggestions from folks who may have dealt with it through homeschooling.

Thanks for the various inputs.
Sarah

----- Original Message -----
From: dana_burdick
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:59 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: dyslexia

I started writing comments of various types, but the same thing kept
coming up in my mind. HE'S SEVEN! Think about it. It is so very
young. The range of ages that children read is very wide. Can you
really know, at seven, that he is dyslexic now or forever? If he is
showing dyslexic tendencies, can you KNOW that his brand will be the
type to interfere with reading?

>I'm just wondering if anyone on here has had a child with dyslexia
and as an
> unschooler how you have dealt with it.

You will be able to align better with unschooling if you don't treat
the label of dyslexia as a special case. Every child has special
needs. Even if we had ten officially diagnosed dyslexic children on
this list, those children's needs would all be very different.
Labels can be slippery things; they can hinder you in seeing a child
for who HE is and what his needs truly are.

Unschooling frees you up to look at your child and see his needs
without label. So what does this look like? Your son is frustrated
with reading. The first question you should ask is why. The second
question you should ask is how can I help reduce his frustration?
You see, the focus is on the frustration, not on the reading. This
allows you to be more creative with a solution. It may look like
you reading to him. It may look like getting books on tape. It may
look like just not being so tense yourself about the whole subject of
reading. Instead of the more traditional route where you are filled
with limiting thoughts like, well I think he's dyslexic and my
husband is dyslexic and I'm unschooling and I'm suppose to do this
some magically correct way. <BWG>

In your post, it sounds like your son _is_ reading but is just not
reading well. Did I understand this correctly? If so, who gets to
decide what reading well looks like? Him? You? Your husband? Friends?
In other words, what factors are really playing into his
frustrations? Babies begin talking with babbling? Do we label them
poor speakers? No, of course not. We accept that as a natural
progression of gaining speech. Maybe you can help him understand
that learning to read is naturally messy and takes time. When his
brain is ready, he WILL read.

-Dana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dana_burdick

6 Apr 2008, at 7:17pm

>I think maybe I came across as sounding like I want him to be

reading and

> reading well right now - that is not what I am saying.

No, not at all. That is why I asked if I got it right or not. I
just couldn't tell from the words you wrote. And, when I make
suggestions like, help may look like YOU relaxing, it does not mean
that I think you have trouble relaxing about the problem. They are
just examples of what an individual can do if they find that to be
true for them. I am not judging in any way. You are the only person
who is intimate enough with your situation to be the judge.

> I am actually very
>comfortable with the idea that his brain may not be ready and we are

trying very

>hard to not hit him with this label yet until we know for sure.

And when you know for sure, then what? Do you _have_ to `hit' him
with a label? If he is noticing jumbling letters and eye strain, it
sounds like you have something right NOW that you can do to ease
this. This is good news, you can begin immediately to address his
needs the label is secondary there is no need for any heaviness
in it either. So what can you do to ease his eye strain? What can
you do to reduce letters getting jumbled? You and he can work
together to find options. You can involve him along the way as you
explore things that will help. It may look like getting special
lenses or finding a good developmental optometrist. It may look like
incorporating the Davis method. Or, any number of things that may be
at your disposal. Or, it may look like waiting until he is older, if
he feels this is best. The more your son is involved, the more he
will become in tune with his own needs. As he learns to be more
reflective, he will be able to guide you and let you know what is
helpful and what is not. This type of learning, IMHO, is what makes
unschooling so profound; Kids get a chance to learn about themselves
from a very early age.

I know that dyslexia does not just go away, I share some dyslexic
hallmarks myself. It did not improve until I ran into some helpful
things recently in my 40s. As a result of looking for things to help
my son, I did a type of therapy for children that helps improve
memory, reading processing, language processing, and organization
ability. Doing the therapy for myself was incidental, but a profound
and life changing event. I was finally able to spell and memorize
things for the first time in my life. Yippy for me! I was so very
happy. Shouldn't everyone have what I got? Well, I came to the
conclusion over time that everyone should not necessarily get what I
got. It really depends if that person is open to it. I concluded
that any issue a person has is less important than that person's
dignity. I stopped doing it for children, because it was too hard
for me to see children being drug in by their parents. I saw how the
therapy was causing a divide between the parent and the child and I
just could be part of that. There may be a case out there where a
treatment or a therapy is more important than an individual's say in
the matter, but I haven't found it yet.

So my point is, don't worry so much about a heavy label. By
following him on a need by need basis, he does not have to feel that
he is labeled, nor does he have to necessarily loose his sense of
self esteem. Get help for your son while consulting him on the
options available along the way. If he doesn't want to do any of it,
then that IS the right decision for him, for now. It doesn't mean
that he won't do something in the future. And, he may find his own
unique way of easing his eye strain or letter jumble (That's what
Davis did, with no help from anyone).

-Dana

sarah hubbard

6 Apr 2008, at 7:39pm

What I want most of all is to be ABLE to help him when the time comes and he requests it. I want to know what I need to do to help him. I'm not familiar with the Davis method as we have just started exploring this, I would love for you to elaborate there. We haven't even talked with him about it yet just because I wanted to learn more about it myself and have a better understanding before we even mention it. Right now, we are just chillin' and going with the flow more or less. I have a call into a local therapist that works at the college helping folks like us, just to ask some questions and see where things are and what we can do. We are just exploring it and then when and if the time becomes necessary we can tell him, but he may never need to know if I have some resources in my pocket I can pull out to help guide him when he wants it. My hope is that this journey will continue to bring us closer and that he will understand it's just a thing... it's no big deal... he also has a hole in his heart, but it has never been an issue that he can't play soccer or football, I don't think this will cause him any woes either. I think he's confident enough that he won't see this as a big deal either.

Thanks for your input! It means a lot!
Sarah

----- Original Message -----
From: dana_burdick
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:17 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: dyslexia

>I think maybe I came across as sounding like I want him to be
reading and
> reading well right now - that is not what I am saying.

No, not at all. That is why I asked if I got it right or not. I
just couldn't tell from the words you wrote. And, when I make
suggestions like, help may look like YOU relaxing, it does not mean
that I think you have trouble relaxing about the problem. They are
just examples of what an individual can do if they find that to be
true for them. I am not judging in any way. You are the only person
who is intimate enough with your situation to be the judge.

> I am actually very
>comfortable with the idea that his brain may not be ready and we are
trying very
>hard to not hit him with this label yet until we know for sure.

And when you know for sure, then what? Do you _have_ to `hit' him
with a label? If he is noticing jumbling letters and eye strain, it
sounds like you have something right NOW that you can do to ease
this. This is good news, you can begin immediately to address his
needs - the label is secondary - there is no need for any heaviness
in it either. So what can you do to ease his eye strain? What can
you do to reduce letters getting jumbled? You and he can work
together to find options. You can involve him along the way as you
explore things that will help. It may look like getting special
lenses or finding a good developmental optometrist. It may look like
incorporating the Davis method. Or, any number of things that may be
at your disposal. Or, it may look like waiting until he is older, if
he feels this is best. The more your son is involved, the more he
will become in tune with his own needs. As he learns to be more
reflective, he will be able to guide you and let you know what is
helpful and what is not. This type of learning, IMHO, is what makes
unschooling so profound; Kids get a chance to learn about themselves
from a very early age.

I know that dyslexia does not just go away, I share some dyslexic
hallmarks myself. It did not improve until I ran into some helpful
things recently in my 40s. As a result of looking for things to help
my son, I did a type of therapy for children that helps improve
memory, reading processing, language processing, and organization
ability. Doing the therapy for myself was incidental, but a profound
and life changing event. I was finally able to spell and memorize
things for the first time in my life. Yippy for me! I was so very
happy. Shouldn't everyone have what I got? Well, I came to the
conclusion over time that everyone should not necessarily get what I
got. It really depends if that person is open to it. I concluded
that any issue a person has is less important than that person's
dignity. I stopped doing it for children, because it was too hard
for me to see children being drug in by their parents. I saw how the
therapy was causing a divide between the parent and the child and I
just could be part of that. There may be a case out there where a
treatment or a therapy is more important than an individual's say in
the matter, but I haven't found it yet.

So my point is, don't worry so much about a heavy label. By
following him on a need by need basis, he does not have to feel that
he is labeled, nor does he have to necessarily loose his sense of
self esteem. Get help for your son while consulting him on the
options available along the way. If he doesn't want to do any of it,
then that IS the right decision for him, for now. It doesn't mean
that he won't do something in the future. And, he may find his own
unique way of easing his eye strain or letter jumble (That's what
Davis did, with no help from anyone).

-Dana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

6 Apr 2008, at 8:31pm

On Apr 6, 2008, at 5:42 AM, sarah hubbard wrote:

> Dyslexia is a condition of the brain it isn't something one can
> outgrow it is something they have to work very hard at controlling
> and I'm not stressed about it,

In younger kids like him, it IS often something "outgrown" as the
brain develops. Our experience as unschoolers has shown that even
older kids do "outgrow" it in the sense that they learn how to read
using their own unique brain (not in the sense that they are "fixed").
There are advantages to different kinds of brain-workings, too.

But for a child that young, it is still FAR more likely that his
descriptions of jumbled letters etc. are developmental, and any
intervention based on the assumption he has a problem is more likely
to cause harm than help.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dana_burdick

6 Apr 2008, at 11:17pm

>I'm not familiar with the Davis method as we have just started
>exploring this, I would love for you to elaborate there.

This list is probably not the appropriate place for discussing any
therapies or methods. You're welcome to email me off-list, though.

For the purpose of this list and getting closer to unschooling, I was
only listing a few things to point out the many forms that help can
take. It was not my intention to suggest any one therapy as
something appropriate for your son.

Pam Said,
"and any intervention based on the assumption he has a problem is
more likely to cause harm than help."

This has not been my experience that interventions as a whole are
more likely to be harmful than helpful. An intervention may take
the form of corrective lenses, for example. I don't think anyone can
make a statement out-of-hand that this type of intervention is
harmful.

-Dana

Pamela Sorooshian

7 Apr 2008, at 12:25am

On Apr 6, 2008, at 8:17 PM, dana_burdick wrote:

> "�and any intervention based on the assumption he has a problem is
> more likely to cause harm than help."
>
> This has not been my experience that interventions as a whole are
> more likely to be harmful than helpful. An intervention may take
> the form of corrective lenses, for example. I don't think anyone can
> make a statement out-of-hand that this type of intervention is
> harmful.

Making the kid think there is something wrong with them is harmful.
Expectations are VERY self-fulfilling.

There are zillions of people out there who will recommend diagnosis
and intervention for reading problems in a 7 year old. Parents worry
about NOT doing enough and really want to "do something."

This is one place a person can get support for NOT intervening for the
sake of letting the child develop in his own natural way.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

7 Apr 2008, at 1:26am

~~
This is one place a person can get support for NOT intervening for the
sake of letting the child develop in his own natural way.~~

Exactly! I am really not thrilled when people start recommending
therapies or methods of any kind for a SEVEN year old! That is amazing
to me actually. It is VERY normal for children that age to see words
and letters backwards or jumbled. Totally normal.

Not only is a label like dyslexia absolutely unecessary, it is
ridiculous because the child in question is so young! I would rather
tell you about my 14 y.o. that learned to read at 12 than to recommend
ANY method for dyslexia.

Even people with true dyslexia learn to read just fine in an
environment where they aren't treated as someone with a "problem" or
"learning disability". A method can't beat time and trust in my
opinion. Wait. That's my advice. In four or five years, if the child
isn't making any progress and is seeing things all jumbled, write us
again.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

7 Apr 2008, at 1:32am

I read up on the Davis method just now. Here's an excerpt:

~~Disorientation and distorted perceptions do more than create
symptoms of dyslexia. The dyslexic or A.D.D. child uses disorientation
for entertainment; he may be disoriented for hours on end creating the
imaginary world he plays in.

What we accept as reality is what we experience. The way we realize an
experience is that we perceive it. Reality, then, is what we perceive
it to be. When disorientation occurs, perception becomes distorted. A
person who is disoriented experiences a reality that is not being
experienced by othersa false, or alternate, reality.

Because of their frequent disorientation, many dyslexic or A.D.D.
individuals do not learn the basic lessons of life. Cause and effect
do not exist in the disorienting child's imaginary, alternate reality
world. Thus, the child never learns the concept of consequence.~~

Does anyone else hear the sound of Supertramp's "The Logical Song" at
this point? Ick.

There are times to research various therapies and understand how to
use them in an unschooling setting. I know one parent who uses them
very gently with her severely autistic children...but a 7y.o. that
can't read??? Totally unecessary.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

dana_burdick

7 Apr 2008, at 2:27am

~Because of their frequent disorientation, many dyslexic or A.D.D.
individuals do not learn the basic lessons of life. Cause and effect
do not exist in the disorienting child's imaginary, alternate reality
world. Thus, the child never learns the concept of consequence.~

Wow, that is yucky. I did not see any reference in that way in my
reading about it. In that case, I apologize for bringing up such a
poor example. My intent was to point out that there are many ways to
approach meeting his needs. I was in no way recommending it. I will
endeavor to be more careful in the future.

-Dana

Ren Allen

7 Apr 2008, at 7:42am

~~Wow, that is yucky. I did not see any reference in that way in my
reading about it.~~

And that doesn't mean there isn't value in any of it, I just tend to
the side of caution with anything claiming to "fix" a person or the
way they process information. I think our society is so bent on
making sure everyone reads well and does math well and knows science
that we end up trying to push a bunch of square pegs into round holes
and miss the beauty of the square peg!!

I really believe that the very unique nature of each person is
something we can honor and cherish, rather than try to "fix". I also
understand there are times we WILL read up on methods and various
diagnoses in order to HELP us understand our child and how to meet
their needs.

I have a youngest child that was born with some pretty intense
feelings and sensitivities. A child that was born into a family that
co-slept from birth, breastfed on demand, did not believe in
punishment and here was this angry, intense, seemingly unreasonable
little person who could not cope with LIFE.

Jalen has been my bhodisatva...the one who shows the way. I thought I
was a pretty terrific parent before him and he managed to dredge up
some pretty amazing stuff from inside of me. Stuff I had to examine
and often discard and learn SO much about what it means to be a better
parent and person.

Basic interactions that you take for granted with most children ,
could turn into a melt-down of extraordinary proportions! Basic
relationship and social cues he completely missed. I could not do
"normal" activities like eat out at restaurants very often, or hang
out at a park day with our homeschool group without remaining VERY
close and very present for him.

After seven years of gentle parenting and weathering some pretty
scorching looks from folks that did not understand why I wasn't
smacking a child that cussed at me, or tried to hit me or freaked out
over what seemed like a very small thing, I have a child that has
learned how to cope with his very unique differences. A child that
would have easily been smacked with the Aspergers label or
Oppositional defiance disorder or Sensory integration disorder....he
still processes the world in his own unique way. Without a label.

Did reading up on these labels or diagnoses help me? You betcha. I
read and read and tried to understand why my child couldn't cope. It
helped me understand a few ways we could provide an environment that
would support his needs better. We made sure there are ways for him to
throw things or be snuggled into a hammock swing. We made sure to tune
in and get him the physical movement he needed and the type of sensory
stimulation that helped him cope.

There was a lot of yucky stuff I read when educating myself on these
labels and therapies. Lots of stuff about forcing these kids to do
certain things and about making them be more "normal".

Uh-uh. Our goal was to support our child, not change who-he-is. He's
still an intense little guy but he plays with friends now and I don't
have to fear that someone will get hurt for accidentally bumping him!
He rarely throws things he's frustrated with now. Trust and time were
essential.

He may hit some more bumps because of his unique way of processing
information, but we're here to support him not change him. That's the
essential difference with an unschooler reading up on and utilizing
"methods" or "therapies" designed by a world intent on conformity.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

sarah hubbard

7 Apr 2008, at 8:02am

You just described my feelings exactly about this. I am feel like my intentions are being distorted simply because it is about reading... I'm just looking to support my kid and if learning more about this subject empowers me to do so, then I'm going to do that, but I am also NOT going to pressure him or assume there is something wrong with him because he jumbles up letters.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: dyslexia

~~Wow, that is yucky. I did not see any reference in that way in my
reading about it.~~

And that doesn't mean there isn't value in any of it, I just tend to
the side of caution with anything claiming to "fix" a person or the
way they process information. I think our society is so bent on
making sure everyone reads well and does math well and knows science
that we end up trying to push a bunch of square pegs into round holes
and miss the beauty of the square peg!!

I really believe that the very unique nature of each person is
something we can honor and cherish, rather than try to "fix". I also
understand there are times we WILL read up on methods and various
diagnoses in order to HELP us understand our child and how to meet
their needs.

I have a youngest child that was born with some pretty intense
feelings and sensitivities. A child that was born into a family that
co-slept from birth, breastfed on demand, did not believe in
punishment and here was this angry, intense, seemingly unreasonable
little person who could not cope with LIFE.

Jalen has been my bhodisatva...the one who shows the way. I thought I
was a pretty terrific parent before him and he managed to dredge up
some pretty amazing stuff from inside of me. Stuff I had to examine
and often discard and learn SO much about what it means to be a better
parent and person.

Basic interactions that you take for granted with most children ,
could turn into a melt-down of extraordinary proportions! Basic
relationship and social cues he completely missed. I could not do
"normal" activities like eat out at restaurants very often, or hang
out at a park day with our homeschool group without remaining VERY
close and very present for him.

After seven years of gentle parenting and weathering some pretty
scorching looks from folks that did not understand why I wasn't
smacking a child that cussed at me, or tried to hit me or freaked out
over what seemed like a very small thing, I have a child that has
learned how to cope with his very unique differences. A child that
would have easily been smacked with the Aspergers label or
Oppositional defiance disorder or Sensory integration disorder....he
still processes the world in his own unique way. Without a label.

Did reading up on these labels or diagnoses help me? You betcha. I
read and read and tried to understand why my child couldn't cope. It
helped me understand a few ways we could provide an environment that
would support his needs better. We made sure there are ways for him to
throw things or be snuggled into a hammock swing. We made sure to tune
in and get him the physical movement he needed and the type of sensory
stimulation that helped him cope.

There was a lot of yucky stuff I read when educating myself on these
labels and therapies. Lots of stuff about forcing these kids to do
certain things and about making them be more "normal".

Uh-uh. Our goal was to support our child, not change who-he-is. He's
still an intense little guy but he plays with friends now and I don't
have to fear that someone will get hurt for accidentally bumping him!
He rarely throws things he's frustrated with now. Trust and time were
essential.

He may hit some more bumps because of his unique way of processing
information, but we're here to support him not change him. That's the
essential difference with an unschooler reading up on and utilizing
"methods" or "therapies" designed by a world intent on conformity.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

7 Apr 2008, at 10:35am

***am feel like my intentions
are being distorted simply because it is about reading...***

No, you've written things that seem to contradict.

You wrote:
*** He wants desperately to read well and is trying (not with me pushing
him), but he gets so deeply frustrated with it and cries.***

Then you wrote:
***That being said, he CAN read and he actually reads somewhat well,***

I think your expectation of a seven year old learning to read is unrealistic. I think you've jumped to a WILD conclusion, based on your husband's experience. If your husband went to school, your unschooled child, even if he reads later, will not have the same experience your husband had...unless you put him in school or shame him and tag him with a label and make him feel like there's something wrong with him. The ONLY damage that comes from later reading is the damage other people can do to the psychology of the later reader.

You wrote:
***I want to offer our child help early on so that he can enjoy the
world of books fully. ***

Then you wrote:
***I am actually very comfortable with the idea that his brain may not be ready ***

Are you wanting to intervene or are you ok with letting learning happen naturally? We're not distorting your intentions you seem to not know what your intentions are.

There is NO reason a person who can't read well yet can't enjoy books. You can read to him. You can get him books on CD and listen with him.

There is no special, universal magic in reading a book. Books are wonderful if you love books. If you don't then books are nothing special. Get over the idea he needs to fully enjoy books. Let *him* decide what *he's* going to fully enjoy.

***I'm just looking to
support my kid and if learning more about this subject empowers me to do so,
then I'm going to do that,***

You said you wanted to know how unschoolers would approach this and you're making excuses against the unschooling advice you're getting. Stop focusing on what you think is the problem and focus on your kid. Support HIM, not some idea you have about what he should be able to do right now. If he gets frustrated when he can't read the things he wants to read, read to him. Read to him all he wants. Tell him he'll positively read someday and tell him lots and lots of people read later and it's absolutely normal. Tell him you'll read to him all he wants until he's reading for himself. Don't make him read. Don't ask him to read. Don't suggest he try to read. Just read to him.

Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

7 Apr 2008, at 10:54am

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:

>
> I read up on the Davis method just now. Here's an excerpt:
>
> ~~Disorientation and distorted perceptions do more than create
> symptoms of dyslexia. The dyslexic or A.D.D. child uses

disorientation

> for entertainment; he may be disoriented for hours on end creating

the

> imaginary world he plays in.
>
> What we accept as reality is what we experience. The way we

realize an

> experience is that we perceive it. Reality, then, is what we

perceive

> it to be. When disorientation occurs, perception becomes

distorted. A

> person who is disoriented experiences a reality that is not being
> experienced by othersa false, or alternate, reality.
>
> Because of their frequent disorientation, many dyslexic or A.D.D.
> individuals do not learn the basic lessons of life. Cause and

effect

> do not exist in the disorienting child's imaginary, alternate

reality

> world. Thus, the child never learns the concept of consequence.~~
>
>
> Does anyone else hear the sound of Supertramp's "The Logical Song"

> this point? Ick.

I don't know that song but I got an Ick feeling reading that.

Alysia

bluemoonascending

11 Apr 2008, at 1:30am

Hi Sara,
I am brand new to this group. I just feel completely compelled to
jump right in and reply to your post though. It reminds me very much
of how I felt with my son.
Four years ago my oldest child was 7 years old. He was as bright as
a whip....but for the world he could not read. Wellll...you know, he
could read very basic books (notice the contradiction =))...but he
couldn't read like most would expect him to. He reversed letters,
numbers and words. He said letters moved around on the page. He
couldn't follow a line of print. He squinted when he looked at
print. He avoided looking at print, and I realized he had for most
of his life. He hated going to the library. His younger brother (5
at that time) could read better than him, and had pretty much learned
to read independently. I felt a sense of panic seep into my life as
I researched reading remediation, dyslexia, and the numerous programs
that existed, sure to *work* for my child. I had just started
homeschooling and felt full of uncertainty. Reports saying *if your
child didn't learn to read by such and such age they would be at an
educational disadvantage their entire life* filled me with anxiety.

I did have him evaluated by an educational something or another, and
a vision therapist. I tried a few reading programs for him, but they
only resulted in frustration and anger. He said he didn't want to
ever learn how to read. Boy..I tell you, that was what scared me the
most I think. After several months of this, I finally just .... let
go.

I stopped trying to teach him to read. It was hard to do. I
worried. I worried and worried that I was doing the wrong thing.
People questioned me too. I continued to surround him with options
and opportunities, especially lots and lots of audio books, but I
left him alone. I do not know exactly how it happened, because it
happened to him privately, but he now is an excellent reader who
eagerly asks when is our next library trip. He actually takes
whatever book he is currently reading with us to the library so he
can continue to read that particular book while his brother and I are
still browsing. His bed is covered with books. He reads slowly (so
does my husband). He still reverses letters quite regularly when he
writes. But, for the life of me, I am convinced that if I continued
to push programs on him he would be a very frustrated young person to
this day.

Like other people have mentioned...7 is so young. Of course, when my
son was 7, I didn't think that. I thought, "Why isn't my son reading
like expected?"
Look into the child's heart and do what seems right for them, the
individual. Forget about expectations.

I remember Ron Davis' book, The Gift of Dyslexia, was very helpful to
me and to my son. Honestly, I read parts of that book and thought
they were completely off the wall. But, when I read them out loud to
my son, he related to them. He definitely has a way of looking at
things that is different from my way....but that doesn't mean that he
is broken or that he needs to be fixed.

My heart goes out to you. I think I can relate to the worries and
frustrations. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and
encourage you to relax as much as possible. Enjoy your time with
your family.

Kim Musolff

13 Apr 2008, at 2:53am

***I concluded
that any issue a person has is less important than that person's
dignity. I stopped doing it for children, because it was too hard
for me to see children being drug in by their parents. I saw how the
therapy was causing a divide between the parent and the child and I
just could be part of that.***

I am struggling with this same sort of thing with tutoring! I've been
tutoring kids in reading for the past 5 years. I've always thought of myself
of a pretty laid-back tutor, really focusing on individual needs, not a
"program" for reading. But since I've been exposed to unschooling, I am
really having a hard time dealing with the fact that I'm part of a process
that I don't really believe in anymore. I feel bad that parents are paying
me to improve their child's reading ability, when the child really doesn't
want to be there and is hating reading the more he is forced to come to me!
I can't wait until the school year is over!
Kim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim Musolff

13 Apr 2008, at 2:59am

***Our experience as unschoolers has shown that even
older kids do "outgrow" it in the sense that they learn how to read
using their own unique brain (not in the sense that they are "fixed").***

So is dyslexia (like ADHD) really only a problem in school, where children
are forced to learn to read in a certain way, that doesn't comply with the
way their brain works?

The little bit of reading on dyslexia that I have done suggests that the
sooner a child with dyslexia gets help, the better. Do you think that would
not be true with an unschooler, because of the nature of learning?

Kim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

13 Apr 2008, at 3:43pm

On Apr 12, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:

> ***Our experience as unschoolers has shown that even
> older kids do "outgrow" it in the sense that they learn how to read
> using their own unique brain (not in the sense that they are
> "fixed").***
>
> So is dyslexia (like ADHD) really only a problem in school, where
> children
> are forced to learn to read in a certain way, that doesn't comply
> with the
> way their brain works?

Yes.

>
>
> The little bit of reading on dyslexia that I have done suggests that
> the
> sooner a child with dyslexia gets help, the better. Do you think
> that would
> not be true with an unschooler, because of the nature of learning?

True if you want them to read by 9 (the current big slogan in schools
in California). Schooled kids need to "hurry up" and read because the
rest of their education depends on them being able to read. Not true
for unschooled kids.

The risk associated with the treatment seems huge and completely
ignored by educator/specialists. I've seen it over and over. A 7 year
old schooled child is diagnosed as dyslexic and gets treatment for it.
By 9, yes, they are reading better. But they NEVER "get over" the
feeling that something is wrong with them and they never come to think
of themselves as competent readers. They continue to struggle for the
rest of their lives. Unschooled kid at 7 is not reading - parents
read to him, get him books from audible.com, listen to cds, surround
him with plenty of print and screen text, play with words and writing
when it is fun for him. Help him happily when he wants it. Sympathize
when he's frustrated. Reassure him that he WILL read when his brain is
ready. Protect him from those who would shame him for not yet
reading. And, eventually, he'll read. He'll have a strong sense of
his own ability to learn, he won't think of having something wrong
with him.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

13 Apr 2008, at 5:34pm

-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>re of learning?

True if you want them to read by 9 (the current big slogan in schools
in California). Schooled kids need to "hurry up" and read because the
rest of their education depends on them being able to read.

-=-=-=-=-

The elementary school in our neighborhood (the one Duncan would have
gone to) is a "Reading First" school. I mean, that's how they
*advertise* it!

"From the Principal
Dear Families, I am excited about having your children with us. The
staff looks forward to working with them and I invite you to be very
visible in the school. We need and want your support daily. Mill Creek
is a Reading First School and our goal is to have all K-3 students
reading on grade level by the time they reach 3rd grade. I am available
to assist you and address your concerns. Thank you for entrusting us
with your most important possession."

I'm so glad we chose to keep him home!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Ren Allen

13 Apr 2008, at 6:39pm

The "REading First" thing didn't even disturb me as much as this part:'

~~Thank you for entrusting us
with your most important possession."~~

Children are now "possessions"? Ack. Can you imagine if someone
referred to your spouse or partner this way? Or a co-worker? That
really sounds awful. People as possessions.

Otoh, at least it's honest. If they're going to treat children as
possessions they might as well call them just that.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Jeanette Crichton

13 Apr 2008, at 8:54pm

I taught in "Reading First" schools in Georgia and reading is practically all we taught ALL DAY! We were required to teach reading for three hours every day (in K-3). Not just enjoy reading-NO-TEACH it explicitly in every subject. So we didn't do science lessons, we had to teach reading lessons with the science text! When I moved up to 6th and 7th grades to escape it, they started doing similar things in those grades too. So many kids HATED to read and SO many parents thought that the schools were doing the best thing for their children :(

Jeanette

The "REading First" thing didn't even disturb me as much as this part:'

~~Thank you for entrusting us
with your most important possession." ~~

Children are now "possessions" ? Ack. Can you imagine if someone
referred to your spouse or partner this way? Or a co-worker? That
really sounds awful. People as possessions.

Otoh, at least it's honest. If they're going to treat children as
possessions they might as well call them just that.

Ren
learninginfreedom. com







____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi Bezzola

13 Apr 2008, at 11:31pm

~~I'm so glad we chose to keep him home!~~

I think this *alot* and my girls are only 3. I remember reading David Albert's essays, and he would tell some ludicrous story about a child and school, then always ended the essay with "sure glad we're homeschooling"!

Yep.

Jodi

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

16 Apr 2008, at 1:31am

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...>

So is dyslexia (like ADHD) really only a problem in school, where
children
are forced to learn to read in a certain way, that doesn't comply with
the
way their brain works?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I don't think it has so much to do with the "certain way" of learning
to read as it does with the *timing*. Forcing it too *soon* seems to be
the problem to me. Well, THAT and...ummmm...forcing at ALL! <BWG>

-=-=-=-=-=-

The little bit of reading on dyslexia that I have done suggests that the
sooner a child with dyslexia gets help, the better. Do you think that
would
not be true with an unschooler, because of the nature of learning?

-=-=-=-=-=-

You're reading about children in SCHOOL who are struggling to read. I
don't think it has so much to do with the "nature of learning"
(although it *does*) as it it does with the excessive *need* in school
to keep to a time table.

*We*, as unschooling parents have all the time in the world to read to
and for our children. School teachers with 30 kids at a time canNOT
give such individualized attention to each and every child. Plus, if
they don't get those kids to read *soon*, the teachers' own "report
cards" may be bad, and they could lose their jobs. Ummm.....no such
luck. Seems you can't FIRE a teacher! <g> And even if you *could*, the
shortage would mean that teacher would be hired by the another school
one district over! <g>

But seriously <g>, there is NO hurry with unschooling. So there's no
time table to worry about. So it becomes a non-issue. Even a *true*
dyslexic will figure out reading with a little more time.

And I don't know of one, single grown unschooler who cannot read---and
read very, very well. But I know of many schooled adults who cannot
read. And many, MANY more who hate it!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org